Detroit Lee interview recording, 1994 July 22
-
Download
- Rights
- Files (3)
-
MP3
Part 1
-
MP3
Part 2
-
MP3
Part 3
- Please be patient with media downloads. They are often large files.
- Share
Loading the media player...
Transcript
- Download transcript as:
-
Text
-
PDF
-
WebVTT (includes timecodes)
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
| Tywanna Whorley | Mr. Lee, can you tell me when you were born? | 0:00 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Born August 22, 1916. | 0:00 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Where was you born? | 0:00 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Born in Daingerfield, Texas. | 0:10 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Can you tell me about living in Daingerfield? | 0:10 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, Daingerfield is a little Southern town in Texas. As usual, most of the White people owned most of the land, and there was more or less sharecropping. And there wasn't too many common labor jobs, other than the farm, something like that. That's about the setting for Daingerfield, Texas. | 0:25 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Was your father a farmer? | 1:13 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yes, he was. | 1:16 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | It so happened my father, they owned their land. | 1:16 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Oh, really? | 1:23 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | On my father's side, they owned their land. Oh, I guess it was about 12 miles from Daingerfield. But my father's family owned the land. And of course when my father came along, he would've been heir to a portion of the property. | 1:25 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Same thing on my mother's side. After slavery time, the old master gave them 360 acres, and that land is in our family till now. So on my mother's side. They own land on my father's side. | 1:51 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And later on, when my mother and father married, they shared land from each one and build them a home. But somehow that got messed up some kind of way. But the 360 acres that's on my mother's side is still in the family. I don't know what happened to the land on my father's side. Okay. | 2:19 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What did your father grow on his land? | 2:57 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Beg your pardon? | 2:58 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What did he grow? | 3:00 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, regular crops, corn and cotton and peas and things like that. Mm-hmm. | 3:02 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Picked cotton? | 3:13 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. And then we had cattle also, yeah. Oh, yeah, picked cotton, I could pick, oh, 300 pounds of cotton when I was about 14 years old. | 3:14 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Whoa. | 3:24 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, I could chop cotton. And my mother was a good field hand. | 3:25 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Let's see, I never worked for half fare, what children usually worked. When people had their children they wouldn't get as much as the adults. But my mother was such a good cotton chopper, hand tiller, or if I get behind, she'd be ahead, and she'd keep me up. So I got the regular fare. I don't know what. 50 or 75 cents a day. | 3:37 |
| Tywanna Whorley | How much did you have to pick on a day on average? | 4:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, I could pick, oh, 300 pound. Mm-hmm. And my mother couldn't pick much, but I could pick 300 pounds of cotton a day. | 4:06 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What about your brothers? | 4:16 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | My brothers was good cotton pickers too. And my sister—See, my mother was married twice. My father was her second husband, so my mother had a family by her first husband, about six or seven kids. But I have only two full sisters on my father's side and mother. Now, my sisters on my father's side, they never did work too much in the field. I had one sister was—she had infantile paralysis, so she worked at home. She didn't work in the field that much. And my baby sister, she was too young at that time to do too much work. | 4:22 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And out of about 14 or just only two of us lived with my—My baby sister, she lives in Chicago. And of course I'm living in Tuskegee. That's all my real immediate family right now. | 5:21 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did you have neighbors? | 5:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh yeah, really, my mother was a good cook, and she cooked for the White people. We had neighbors, but since my mother wasn't home much of the time, we didn't have too much visitation. That's right. Surely did. Mm-hmm. | 5:38 |
| Tywanna Whorley | And you said she cooked for them. Would she be gone most of the day? | 6:12 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Yeah, she was gone most of the day. And by the way, mostly she cooked for—I remember one time they were all very rich. But she was a good cook. And my mother was very much of the Indian descent. She was real dark, had long pretty hair halfway down her back. And she was a extra good cook. And she always stood in real well with her White, I guess, boss lady. Now, as long as I would come in the back, I could go all over the house. And in this time she was cooking for the probate judge's wife. And when they bought clothes for their children, they bought clothes for me, so I worn a white shirt and a tie to school all my life. Or since elementary and high school. Mm-hmm. Yeah. | 6:21 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So when did you start noticing that there were differences between Black and White, that there was places you could go and couldn't go? | 7:43 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I guess when I really began—Since my mother had such a good rapport with the White people, I think what made me kind of think about the difference of White and Black, because my older sister and brother, they are so much ahead of me until I didn't know too much about them. | 7:52 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | But anyway, I guess when I was eight or 10 years old, I began to hear about lynching. And most I'd hear about lynching was the Blacks getting lynched. Never hear about no Whites being lynched. And so that really—And a lot of times what we would hear, the lynching was more or less about Black men's being involved with White women. | 8:25 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And one thing that's uppermost in my mind is that since my mother was a cook—I must've been about 14 years old, 12 or 14, so in order to get extra money, I was mowing the lawn, which I believe is where she was cooking. And I noticed one day that a White girl stayed out from school. I don't know. I was pretty smart all during elementary school, because both my parents liked education. And I guess on both sides—Compared in those days, my family was kind of—land owner was pretty well-to-do, and I guess the reason my mother cooked and whatnot for White people, that was about the best jobs that you had without too much education. I don't remember too many really, too many, other than schoolteachers, what you call educated people in those days. So there wasn't too many businesses Black owned, things of that sort. Most things back then was school teaching. | 9:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | But anyway, so in order to get a little extra change, my mother took me with her to this White lady's house, and I was raking up leaves and cutting their lawn. And this White girl stayed home from school that day, and think she's supposed to be sick, from what I could hear them say. I heard this more or less—Talking about my mother. Of course, I remember part of it myself. And the house had a hallway in it and a screened in back porch. The kitchen was on one side, and I guess maybe a part of the living quarters on the other side. | 10:47 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | But anyway, I remember this White girl, about nine o'clock in the morning, coming to the screened porch, and seemed like she had on a negligee, so when I looked up and saw her, it kind of struck fear, because I knew the relation between White and Black, especially with women. And so by that time, I guess my mother might've had a premonition. She came out on the screened porch. And apparently the girl went back in the house. That somewhat struck a fear in me. And apparently my mother recognized too, so she didn't take me there anymore to cut the lawn or to rake up grass. | 11:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And that might could've been a narrow escape, because I didn't have—But when I saw her like that, it just kind of struck fear in me, because a lot of Black people had been lynched because of a mixture of races like that. | 12:45 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did they ever tell you, when you went to White people's houses, you had to go in the back? | 13:17 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, yeah. That was a custom. No Black people went in the front door of White people during those days, as I can recollect. And as you'd guess, my mother, with such a good relation she had with them, she wasn't allowed to go in the front door. I just didn't even think about it. But after you get inside you could go all over the place. | 13:17 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did you ever talk to her about how things were? Did she ever explain to you why you had to go to the back, or—? | 13:40 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. I think I just sort of [indistinct 00:13:53]. No, she never did. Even with the incident at the house, she didn't have to say anything to me about it. Mm-mm. | 13:51 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Do you know grandparents? | 14:00 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. On my mother's side, my grandfather, his name was Pete S. Rivers. And my grandmother's name, Mariah. My grandmother was very religious, of course as well as my mother. And I just learned, oh, I guess about 20 years ago, that a church, a Baptist church was named in her honor. The church is named Mount Mariah, and my grandmother was named Mariah, and so that's how the church came by that name. | 14:06 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And my grandfather Pete, oh, he had a large family too. And I think my mother was the baby girl of the family. She just about the favorite of the family. She had about three or four brothers, and about three sisters. | 14:52 |
| Tywanna Whorley | They were farmers too? | 15:15 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Hmm? | 15:15 |
| Tywanna Whorley | They were farmers too? | 15:15 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they had a huge farm. Mm-hmm. Had cows and hogs and chicken. And then they had row crops. | 15:15 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did they talk about their lives, growing up in the 1800s? | 15:38 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Apparently, since after slavery they had their own land and whatnot, I don't think they came in contact too much with White people. Because I had a uncle didn't have too much respect for White people at all because he was what you call a double joint person, he had extra strength, and he had a lot of hair on his face. And he would chop wood with a ax with a iron handle. We always talk about him as being double joint, that's an individual with extra strength in his arms. And he would chop wood with this ax. He'd hardly use a saw. He would chop like that, then he made cord wood and he would sell it. | 15:51 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | A White man came to buy a cord of wood. That's the denomination they sold the wood in those days, cord wood. And he loaded the wood on then the White man want him to let him pay him the next week or something of that sort. And he wouldn't do that. He told the man, "Put the wood back off." And so apparently he did. | 17:00 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | But really I haven't heard hardly any of my uncles talk too much about the White people, because they just had their own land and had their own tools and [indistinct 00:17:53] that sort. So in my younger days in Daingerfield, maybe sometime on a Saturday I would go to town with my parents, but I never did have too much mingling with White people. | 17:35 |
| Tywanna Whorley | In the town. How would you travel to town? | 18:18 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, on a wagon. We had a wagon and we had a buggy. And those were luxuries in those days. | 18:23 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did y'all spend all day there? | 18:29 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. My people, they would, we reared, we raised most things on the farm, but things like flour and meal, some of that sort. And sometimes we even ground our meal, but not like flour. And maybe sugar, we'd go into town for that, but we never stayed in town too long. Mm-mm. | 18:35 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Was everything separate there, in terms of—? | 18:56 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Yeah, well, most the stores was owned by the White people. There wasn't too many Black stores there. Might've been a few Black little shops, like a blacksmiths shop, something of that sort, but all the stores were owned by White people. | 19:00 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did you ever meet, like—talk about wealthy Blacks, were there some in town? | 19:14 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. Now, the people my mother was working for, they would talk about their children. And I was always been pretty smart at school, and my mother would talk about me, how what I've done in school, and they would talk about their children. So I guess my mother telling me that I was pretty studious in school, that I think that made them feel a little more kindly to us, and that's been—They would send clothes, things of that sort. | 19:24 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Which school did you attend? | 20:10 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, now see, the first school I attend was called a Rosenwald School. The Rosenwald was a rich philanthropist who, especially in Texas, gave money to build schools for Blacks. And this school, I think it had two rooms. And it was white. The school was painted white. But most schools in those days, they weren't painted at all. But the first school, it was a Rosenwald School. | 20:14 |
| Tywanna Whorley | How long did you go there? | 20:57 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I went there, I think, till about the third grade. I remember the first grade quite well. That was what we called a primer. That was called a Playmate Primer. And it had the characters in it mostly was Will and Mary, those were the two main characters in that Playmate Primer. I remember that quite well. | 21:00 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Where'd you go after that? | 21:36 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Huh? | 21:36 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Where'd you go after that? | 21:36 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | This community was named Mount Zion, which was primarily a Colored community when I first started school. Then we moved to Daingerfield. See, Mount Zion is in the Dainger community, but Mount Zion was in the country. And Daingerfield was a little town, see? So that's where I went to elementary school. Yeah. And I went to school there until about the eighth grade. I remember—No. No, I think maybe the sixth grade. As far as I remember, I was in a spelling bee in the sixth—it was sixth or seventh grade. I was always pretty studious in school, because I didn't have to stay out of school to work. My parents always like for me to go, especially me. Now, my sisters and brothers, they didn't think too much of school. | 21:48 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | But anyway, we had a spelling bee. And I think something about 12 or 13. When it got down to me and another girl, and she was very smart too. I don't know what her name was. I won the bee. I never forget that. But we're spelling the long words like—I remember one word, Constantinople. Oh, boy, we're spelling that, and a lot of other long words that we spelled pretty good. And the spelling bee got down to the word gnat. And the instructor called out, said, "Gnat." But we spelt most of the really long words, but we concentrated on that. And now all had sat down except me and this girl. And really, we had been kind of rivals. She's very smart. We had been rivals throughout school. | 23:11 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | So when the teacher called out gnat, she said, "N-A-T, gnat." And then the teacher said, "Gnat." Then she felt kind of puzzled. Then she took her time and she thought on it, said, "N-A-T, gnat." Then it dawned on me what was wrong, and I was standing there almost spellbound. (laughs) Think that this girl was going to think about the silent G there, you know. And she looked puzzled. And I was just about to jump out of my skin. I was just—just— Then the teacher called three times. Three times. She said, "N-A-T, gnat." For nothing, it was nat, you know. (laughs) Then they called on me. And I said, "G-N-A-T." And boy, that girl cried, and I—(laughs) | 24:17 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah, but that's—I won that spelling bee on gnat. And I will never forget about gnat. Right now, I don't know why they want to put that G on gnat, for N-A-T does spell nat, but the correct word is G-N-A-T. Are you aware of that? | 25:29 |
| Tywanna Whorley | No. | 25:45 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | You're not aware of that? (laughs) Yeah. | 25:45 |
| Tywanna Whorley | I didn't know that either. | 25:45 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's right. I don't know how I happened to think about the silent G. Of course you know a lot of words, letters are silent in spelling. Spelling is a mess. But boy, I shall never, I will never forget that. But that girl, she was smart though. Boy. | 25:50 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | So that was in Daingerfield. Then the next school I went to when I was finishing high school was Mount Pleasant, Texas, which was about 16 miles from Daingerfield. So that's where I finished high school. It was the Booker T. Washington High School in Mount Pleasant, Texas. And I was smart there. I was at least about sixth in my class, even in high school. | 26:14 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So your parents moved there? | 26:41 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Mm-hmm. | 26:47 |
| Tywanna Whorley | How was the community there? | 26:48 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | There again, my mother—My mother and father had separated by that time, and I always stayed with my mother. We always had good relations. Me and my baby sister and [indistinct 00:27:12] there were about four of us then. We stayed with our mother, and our father married again. | 26:52 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | So there again, even in high school I never did have too much interplay with White people. But I worked at a service station for some White people, and my reputation as being pretty good in school was pretty well known. I had good relations with White people that I worked for. I really did. | 27:25 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And one reason I ran for probate judge in later years. As I said, my mother worked for a probate judge's wife. And I could go into the courthouse and could go anywhere in the courthouse, pick on the typewriters and whatnot. And and I didn't see any other—Well, of course you had the janitor and things of that sort, but I didn't see anyone else going in the courthouse and going to the offices, any of that sort. I was just kind of fascinated by typewriters, because my principal in high school gave me a typewriter. It was an Oliver when the keys flip over like that in the center. And I worked in the principal's office on a federal program, and I learned how to type even in high school. | 28:05 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What federal program? | 29:02 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Huh? | 29:02 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What federal program did you do? | 29:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Let see what that program's name, I reckon. They were giving students $6 a month. Yeah, that was a federal program. Let me see. I forgot the name of it now. Yeah, I forgot the name of it now. It might come to me and I'll tell you later. But that gave me the chance to work in the principal's office. And I guess I thought I was pretty smart anyway. | 29:10 |
| Tywanna Whorley | This is in Mount Pleasant. | 29:41 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mount Pleasant, Texas. | 29:41 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So you graduate second in your class, what'd you do? | 29:41 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Okay. Now, there was Prairie View College in Texas, was almost like Tuskegee Institute at that time. But I read the book, Up from Slavery, and also I think that's where I heard from Tuskegee. I don't know whether I'd known anyone who had come to Tuskegee, but I heard somewhere that [indistinct 00:30:30]. I might've gotten it from Up from Slavery. Tuskegee had the five year plan in those days. In other words, you could work in the day and go to school at night for two or three years, then you finish by going to day school. So I came here on a five year plan. And so I didn't never have any tuition, anything of that sort. I think when I got here, I think I had about $7 just sitting in my pocket, and I never had to send back home for anything. And so that's how I came to Tuskegee instead of going to Prairie View. But I think I was intrigued by Up from Slavery, about the five year plan. Yeah. | 30:02 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What do you remember from Up from Slavery that sparked your interest in Tuskegee? | 31:21 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I really don't know. I've got that, definitely. I'm going to re-read that again. I think I've still got that book, Up from Slavery. But I don't know what—That's a good question. I don't know what inspired me from Up from Slavery to cause me to want to come to Tuskegee rather than to go to Prairie View for both of them. See, I was interested in vocational agriculture. And I guess one of the reasons I was interested in vocational agriculture, see, a county agent at that time, he worked the year round, but most school teachers, they worked from six to nine months, then they'd be off. So I wanted to be a county agent, and that took a agriculture background in order to be a county agent. And I assumed I could work the year round like that, and that's when I came to Tuskegee. | 31:25 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What jobs did you have at Tuskegee? | 32:17 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | When I first came? Oh, I worked on a farm. Mm-hmm. I worked on a farm. Let's see, I didn't have any other jobs. Let's see, I worked on the farm here for about a couple of years, then I was in regular school. Then at that time, I think I moved down in the community. I think it was with the town during that time, a lot of students could work for people in the community to get their room and board, then go to school on the campus. | 32:25 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:33:15] live on campus. | 33:12 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I lived on the campus about a year, and I lived in one of the Emerys. Then I moved off the campus. I don't know why I moved off, but I moved off the campus and stayed with the Collins. | 33:19 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:33:42] | 33:34 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. It was— | 33:47 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Patterson. | 33:49 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | —Patterson. [indistinct 00:33:51] here. See, I came here in 1936. It must've been Patterson. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If I don't remember them both. It's Patterson. Mm-hmm. | 33:56 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What did you think about the school [indistinct 00:34:06] the community? | 34:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, I thought the school was great. I didn't know anything about the town of Tuskegee for—I don't think students hardly went downtown very much. | 34:15 |
| Tywanna Whorley | They didn't? | 34:23 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I don't think so. I didn't know there was a town until a long time. No, I didn't know it was Tuskegee town for a long time I was here. | 34:24 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So basically everything was provided for you [indistinct 00:34:36]? | 34:31 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. On the campus. Mm-hmm. Yeah. | 34:37 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:34:41] | 34:38 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | There was a Howard Restaurant. I mean, I knew about that because I was a classmate of one of the Howard boys. Yeah, I remember the Burrows Drug Store. The barber shop. I remember a barber shop. I don't know what [indistinct 00:35:40]. Oh, there was a grocery store out in Greenwood too. I remember that. But what we call a block now, most of that was run by Black people. | 34:41 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:35:58] | 35:54 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. I don't know when I first went to town. I didn't go to town at all. Then I was always been interested in church. I think I went to the Greenwood Baptist Church, because I was living in Greenwood, but I joined the Mount Olive Baptist Church, which was across town. I don't know why I'd do that. Of course that might've been after I had married. But I went to Greenwood Baptist Church for quite awhile, but it was close to the campus there. | 35:58 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did you ever, while you were at school five years, did you ever hear about any incidents with Whites? Was there incidents [indistinct 00:36:45]? | 36:42 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-mm. | 36:44 |
| Tywanna Whorley | No incidents? | 36:44 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. I didn't hear anything about White people at all during that time. I really didn't. | 36:52 |
| Tywanna Whorley | No lynchings? | 37:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. Mm-mm. No. Really didn't. | 37:03 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Didn't see any? | 37:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Huh? | 37:03 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did you ever see any White people? | 37:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Huh? | 37:03 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did you ever see any White people? | 37:18 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No, I never see—I didn't see no White people when I came here to Tuskegee in '36, until—I don't know how long I was here before I even knew—before I even went downtown. | 37:20 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So in terms of washing clothes— | 37:38 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, that was on the campus. | 37:41 |
| Tywanna Whorley | All that- | 37:42 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. All that was on the campus. That's strange. I don't know when—I didn't go in the vicinity of White people at all for a long time, because I worked on a farm, and a school farm, you see. The school ran that. Mm-mm. I really didn't. | 37:43 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did that [indistinct 00:38:23]? | 38:18 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. I think the first job I had on the campus, I worked in Dr. Golmerian's office. I really did. I worked in Dr. Golmerian's office. Me and another girl. She kind of the same as you, about the same color and about your same size. I forget her name right now. But I could type when I came to high school, because I learnt—before I came to college. So I worked in Dr. Golmerian's office. I really did. | 38:25 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:38:57] What was your impression [indistinct 00:39:01]? | 38:57 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I had about the same impression of Dr. Golmerian as I had when I first saw Dr. Carver. Dr. Carver had his office in the basement of an ag building, and I happened to walk in there and—just accidentally walked in there for some reason and I saw him standing, and it really kind of looked like a ghost to me. Uh-huh. I don't think I really heard too much about him at that time, but he just had [indistinct 00:39:47]. And same thing about Dr. Golmerian. Dr. Golmerian was always—very seldom did you see him smile. And I had just about the same impression when I saw Dr. Golmerian. He was always kind of businesslike and sincere, never had any jokes or anything like people usually do. He was always very professional, sincere. So I had about the same impression of Dr. Golmerian. | 39:08 |
| Tywanna Whorley | You had him in classes? | 40:33 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Hmm? | 40:33 |
| Tywanna Whorley | You had him in classes? | 40:33 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. Dr. Fuller was one of my teachers. And really Dr. Tolman taught me history at one time. | 40:34 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Tolman taught you? | 40:40 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. He certainly did. | 40:41 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Wow. | 40:42 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. But I remember in my other years was Dr. Fuller, that was math. Rome was biology. Sprague was in English. Those were my early teachers. | 40:45 |
| Tywanna Whorley | You said Tolman taught you history. What did you think of [indistinct 00:41:06]? | 41:02 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, he would more or less lecture. He was a good lecturer. Mm-hmm. And most other teachers, they'd have you bring in assignments, things of that sort, but Tolman was more or less—Nearest I can remember was—He must've been relatively young at that time, because I'm 77, and you know Dr. Tolman's still there. He must've been pretty young. He must not have been too much—And he more or less taught Negro history too. | 41:06 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Mm-hmm. | 41:58 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. He was good at that. What did Dr. Reed teach? I had a Dr. Reed that taught me something. But I know Rome was biology. Fuller was math. Dr. Reed must've—Oh, I think he taught me arithmetic. I think we had arithmetic, I think. Something like that. | 41:59 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Was that the only time you saw Dr. Carver? | 42:25 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Uh-huh. Well, later on, he had a special place in his dining room where he ate all the time. I never saw anyone talk to Dr. Carver too much. I mean, most of the time I'd see him at lunchtime. He had his special chair and they'd wait on him. But I don't think I ever heard—I don't think I had never hear him speak. | 42:29 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Really? | 43:04 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-mm. | 43:04 |
| Tywanna Whorley | He was fairly old then. | 43:04 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. Yeah. | 43:04 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:43:05] | 43:04 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. That's right, he died in [indistinct 00:43:07]. Yeah. Uh-huh. So, '36, yeah. | 43:06 |
| Tywanna Whorley | You remember how things were when you [indistinct 00:43:18] passed? | 43:16 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. Let's see, where was I in '43? Oh, in '37 there was a new federal program in the South called the Civilian Conservation Corps., short name is CCC. And since I was working in Dr. Otis' office in—He's head of the agriculture department. And they wanted someone in Greensboro, Alabama who could type. And most times we would go up in the summer to make a little cash and we had to come back to school in the fall, you see. And Dr. Otis recommended me to go to this Civilian Conservation Corps work camp in Greensboro, Alabama. That's about 140-50 miles from here. So I worked in the Civilian Conservation Corps since '37 till about '43, so I was there when Dr. Carver died, so I don't remember too much about his death, because I was working. | 43:17 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So you did get [indistinct 00:45:04]. | 45:02 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No, I—After I went to work, I would come back and go to school, so I'd have about three years. I would be characterized by then as a junior. Mm-hmm. And then I was drafted in the service from the CC camp. That's what we called it, CC camp. So I was really—After working, I went in the fall three or four years, but it would be equivalent of about a junior. Mm-hmm. | 45:05 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So we want to talk about that. You got drafted. What did you think when you heard that you got drafted to go fight for the United States? | 45:53 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Well, let's see, before I was drafted around—At that time, that was in '43— | 46:06 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Let me see when that was. Okay, I was in the CC Camp until the war in Japan. That must have been about '42 or '43. But when they finished in Japan and went to Europe, somewhere along the line, I worked at the Tuskegee Air Base. But anyways, about my—so when I was drafted—Where was I working at that time? Oh, then, it must have been about '45. I was working at the VA Hospital at that time. | 0:04 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And I had about three, what they call "lap babies," at that time. But they drafted me and I don't think they were supposed to draft me. I think somebody—Before that time, I had become involved in the Civil Rights March, things of that sort. But anyways, after I was drafted, there were times when they had shipped all the soldiers out of Fort Benning, to Europe. And yet again, my typing ability put me in the office over there at Fort Benning, so I never took any basic training. I went right into the office and was typing, and so while I was typing, I wrote a letter to the commanding officer, telling him that I had three children and I didn't want to be in the service. | 0:57 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What happened? | 2:22 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Somewhere along there, I learned how to write through channels. See, when you write something through channels, no one can—They can endorse it, and it goes on to the top person. And so when that top person, I don't guess—Let's see, did I—No, I think I had the chaplain or someone to speak for me. But anyway, it was approved and it came on back down, and I almost was discharged before I got my 90 days in. | 2:23 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | So I had a friend of mine say, "Mr. Lee," say, "if you go out now, you won't have no Veterans Benefits." This don't happen no more. And what I did, I had went to SIC Hall, and I guess I stayed in SIC Hall for about two weeks. In other words, I ended up being 110 days in the service. Ninety days would give you benefits, but I was in there 110 days, then I was back out again. | 2:55 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, they almost—When I went in the induction center, you go through EV Processing. And while you're being processed—See, in the CCC Camp, it had some military rules, so I knew a little about the military work. A fellow was sending me to the Navy, and it just so happened, I said, "If you don't mind, I'd like to be in the Army," so he put down the Navy stamp and picked up the Army stamp. You see? And that kept me right there. Then I worked in the office every since. But if he had it stamped for the Navy, they would have sent me right to somewhere, a Navy camp, and I might have not gotten back. Then plus the fact, my family was here. | 3:31 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Then I never did have to take any basic training. I went right into the office. I had a motorbike then, and I would come home just about every weekend. That's about—For Fort Benning, that's about what? About 40 miles from here. So I had stay up there, and I could come back home and see my wife and kids just about every weekend, so I—Really, it's almost just like another job, [indistinct 00:04:54]. But that was a narrow escape, boy. I mean, uh-uh. | 4:30 |
| Tywanna Whorley | We're going to back it up. You were saying that before you got drafted, you were involved in the Civil Rights [indistinct 00:05:05]? You said you were involved—before you got drafted, you were involved. | 4:58 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Let me see how I can bring that in. | 5:11 |
| Tywanna Whorley | This had to be what, in the early '40s? | 5:16 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. In the early '40s. It was in 1944 when I organized the First Chapter of the NAACP, in Tuskegee. | 5:41 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Really? | 5:51 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. | 5:52 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Oh, so it was you? | 5:53 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Now there was one other person whose name was Spivey, he worked in the dining hall. He had a brother to get—If it wasn't lynched, he was to get mistreated somewhere in South Carolina. Then he had tried to organize a branch of the NACP here, and he couldn't do it. Now I think what caused me to be successful in organizing the first branch of the NACP—Now one reason, you know DuBois and Washington were kind of at odds on their philosophy of helping Black people? | 5:54 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Mm-hmm. | 6:36 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And I read a lot about DuBois, and I loved DuBois. And of course, I was going to school with him, I loved Booker T. Washington as well. But anyway, I was working at the air base at this time, and I was trying to organize a chapter of the NAACP. And I put the sign up for to come to meeting, and most of the people right around here at Tuskegee, they'll look at the sign and wouldn't even read it. But I think what caused me to be successful, at the air base, we had a lot of people here from other areas in the training. And that Wrightsville, it was Pleasantville, and some from New York, from Ohio and down in Louisiana. And most of those people, they had been—They knew about the NAACP, so now, that's how I was able to organize the first chapter here, about getting membership for people, like that. And then people in Tuskegee, they began to—A few of them began to join the NAACP. | 6:38 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Do you remember how many members you got the first time? | 8:12 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I got a record of that somewhere here. It's more than 100. Yeah. It was more than a—And I think I have the names of a lot of them here too. I can look that up, maybe about time you're here the next time. | 8:12 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Mm-hmm. | 8:32 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | That's how we got—And ordinarily, the one who organizes anything, they usually become to be president. I was president, but the board of directors were from the VA Hospital, and some from the school, and they curbed my activity. They just wanted the NAACP in name, but they didn't want to do anything with it. So that frustrated me a little bit, and that's where I kind of made friends with Dr. Chameleon. Now he was a little more, well aggressive, than the average person here. Well I think during this time too, when a lady by the name of Gwen Patton was on the campus, and we had began to— | 8:33 |
| Tywanna Whorley | I know Gwen. I know who she is. | 9:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Huh? | 9:35 |
| Tywanna Whorley | I know who she is. | 9:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. Yeah. Well she had made a statement here, and they were—About this incident, I guess we had to kind of learn about time then. I'm pretty sure we had, because we had one or two Blacks on the—Well during that time too, when we had—where the Jerry Manor was, and things of that sort. And I was a part of that [indistinct 00:10:03] as well. But anyway, Gwen and Sandra Young and some other students that were Black, they were fixing to go downtown. They had a program said, "trade with your friends," and we were going to boycott the stores downtown who wouldn't hire Black people. | 9:37 |
| Tywanna Whorley | This was in the '40s, wasn't it? | 10:23 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. | 10:23 |
| Tywanna Whorley | This was in the '40s? | 10:23 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Let's see. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was in the '40s. Maybe about '45 or '48, somewhere along there. | 10:26 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Okay. | 10:38 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Because I was out of the service at that time. But anyway, now really what happened, Gwen them, they were a little too forward for the average Tuskegeean. And I really think Dr. Chameleon and Dr. Foster really had come out to try to keep the people from marching downtown, but they had such a—Of course, you know at that time, they couldn't stop them, so they really got the credit for leaving. For condoning. But really and truly, they didn't approve of the activity of the students that time. But the—It had grown so large in that, they couldn't quite do it. | 10:38 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Just back you up a little bit, why did you want to start a N double A—How did you come about wanting to start an NAACP here at Tuskegee? | 11:40 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | That's interesting. Let's see. Okay, I think what happened there, it must have been in 1945, when I was working at the air base. Now you know when the VA Hospital was first opened here, there was White people in charge there, because of course, they didn't have Blacks. So same as the air base. | 11:57 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Oh, I didn't know that. | 12:18 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | The original mechanics and whatnot were White. And they were supposed to stay here so long as they could train Blacks to take their places. So I was in what we call "planning production," and I was supposed to been training to take the White man's place. But the White man, he didn't—We didn't pan out like that. So I think that was the FEPC, sent him, for him to practice when the Black people had some disagreements. But I didn't win the FEPC case, for our decks were kind of stacked in Washington at that time. Then I said I was organizing NAACP, for the NAACP is a little more—originally more outgoing than the FEPC. So that's what caused me to organize the NAACP. | 12:20 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And I think really, I had been a member of the NAACP in Texas as well. So I was kind of familiar with the NAACP. | 13:21 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Were there any crises? | 13:31 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's right. Uh-huh. So I really became interested in the NAACP while I was in Texas. But I hadn't had any use for it, I guess until I ran into that little difficulty there at the air base. | 13:32 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So how is—I mean, you were saying that you really didn't have enough contact with White people at Tuskegee when you went here, but then when the students started to organize and going out and trying to boycott from the stores, you came into contact then with Whites. What happened then? | 13:52 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Okay, now you're talking about jogging my memory, you really are. I didn't have too much success with the adult Black people here, because they were—most of them didn't know no better, were these kind of White boys. So really, Dr. Washington them, they had a certain kind of liaison with the White people. They kind of kept us under control. But more recent than that, then Black people began to kind of want—especially when people like me and Patton came out, they wanted to make their own decisions about things. | 14:19 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | It just so happened in my daughter's senior year at Tuskegee, Dr. Martin Luther King wasn't welcome here. Now it was her, Gregory—They got him as a commencement speaker. And that seemed strange, but Tuskegee was so complacent, that they really didn't have too much regards about King at that time. | 14:50 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Why was that? | 15:28 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Let's see, when did my daughter finish Tuskegee Institute? It must have been about '64 or '65 when she finished. And you know the [indistinct 00:15:36] didn't care. If they can get somebody who they wanted to speak, because that's one time when they—Then I think Gwen and Patton them maybe came on after. After that. But anyway, since we didn't get too much cooperating out of the Black people, by kind of protesting for Blacks to have better jobs downtown, like sales clerks and things of that sort—I had a little used group. It was my children—Let's see, it's three of my children, then—And [indistinct 00:16:23] might have been a part of this also, but not only that, they were a group. And we would have our meeting our meeting in a church. | 15:28 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And I don't know, Mr. Alan Parker—I had done some business with Alan Parker for—Let's see, he might have—I'm the first Black in the whole Southeast that got 100% loan from the GI, to build my house. A lot of Black people didn't even—Maybe that's kind of backwards, I don't know. So I got a VA approved, but I had to get the money through a local bank. So Alan Parker, he would—And not only did he come to my meetings, he was one of the members of the CCA. And I think what role he played, was to see just how much the Blacks were doing. How adamant was it to kind of keep peace between the more—I think I want to say belligerent Blacks. Oh, I want to say the aggressive Blacks. And then try to—And he did a pretty good job to sandwich between the council of Whites and the—He was kind of a mediator. | 16:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | So I had a pretty good rapport with him for some reason. But when I was getting my loan that the VA had approved, that you had to get your local bank, I had had some business with him as well. I might have—Let's see what—But anyway, when the federal government sent the—No, when I drove here, that was at Exchange Bank. Then about 10 days, I wondered why my loan hadn't come through. So in checking in Montgomery—was the headquarters for the VA loans. To find out why my—I was a veteran, I knew I met all them—Then I was working at the VA Hospital, I knew I was making enough money to qualify for the loan, although no other Blacks were. I didn't know it at that particular time, but anyways. So when I went to Montgomery and was trying to find out why my loan hadn't come through, this man was checking the records. He had the records there on his desk. | 17:46 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | In the meantime, the telephone ring. The man had to do something else. So while he was gone, I looked through my records, and I saw in there where the Alabama Exchange Bank said that I was a troublemaker. And that really what had my loan held up for about three months. Then when I complained to Washington about it, he called me a troublemaker. Then it wasn't too long before the loan came through. And the reason I think I'm the only one in the whole Southeast District—I saw in the paper there, only one Black had got a 100% GI loan to build a house. | 19:21 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Wow. | 20:02 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. And that must have been in about 19—When did I build my house? I think about 1944. So it was in one of the papers, saying that only one Black had gotten a 100% GI loan to build a house. | 20:04 |
| Tywanna Whorley | How do you think people found out that you were a troublemaker? | 20:31 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Hm? | 20:33 |
| Tywanna Whorley | How do you think people found out that you were a troublemaker? I mean, because that's way up. | 20:36 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, that's—Whenever Blacks don't agree with anything White people say, he's considered a troublemaker. That's the only thing I could—but that was in the thing. Now when I complained about it, troublemaker, it must have been as astounding to them as it is to you. They wanted to know who—No doubt they—They must have called around or did something to find out why I was being called a troublemaker. | 20:39 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Mm-hmm. | 21:10 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | But I don't know what they did, but I know right after then, I got my loan. But he sure had that in that record, that I was a troublemaker. Yep. | 21:11 |
| Tywanna Whorley | All right. So we can go on and talk about the school case and what made you decide to send your kids to, or try to get them into a White schools. | 21:18 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. | 21:32 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Because you hadn't been doing stuff prior to trying to get your kids in. | 21:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Well there's one other incident too. When my daughter—Let's see, where did she go before she went to Smith? She was working in New York, I believe, and—And she had some White friends, and the White friends got her a scholarship or something. And she was with them, and the White kids, they were accepted and the lady turned my daughter down. And my daughter went back and told them that, "The reason you didn't give it to me is because I'm Black." So when they did that, she got whatever it was. You see? | 21:40 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Let's see how did we first decide to— | 22:52 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Because what was the—And maybe this might jog your memory. In terms of, who were the Black students here in Tuskegee that the kids could go to? If they couldn't go to the White schools. | 23:04 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | It really wasn't but one White school here at that time, I believe. I think that because Tuskegee is a public school, I think there was an elementary. I think that was the whole thing. | 23:15 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Mm-hmm. | 23:24 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Let's see were there any other Whites. I don't think there were any other White schools here. | 23:25 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Okay. Do you remember the names of the Black ones? | 23:25 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Huh? | 23:25 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Do you remember the names of the Black ones? | 23:25 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, yeah. I remember Tuskegee Institute High, [indistinct 00:23:38], out here. Of course a lot of that's been disbanded. And let's see, it's Lewis Adams, Tuskegee Institute High, then the Chairman's Children House. That was mostly for the teachers and whatnot, because I had some children go there because I was friends with some people. And Deaf Candler-Wolf out here, and that took care of that area. So it was about six or seven. And then of course there was a Catholic school. So it was about six or seven. I think Tuskegee Institute High might have been the only high school. No, I think that was Candler-Wolf might have had the [indistinct 00:24:31] at that time too. And down here at South Alabama, they had a high school down there. | 23:36 |
| Tywanna Whorley | And everybody was bused? Or [indistinct 00:24:45] didn't walk? | 24:40 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I don't think we had no—I think everybody was walked, uh-huh. Because I think one of the reasons that caused me to—Because now, at that time, I was living out here on [indistinct 00:25:04] McKenzie's Funeral Home, and the buses would go down below and pick up some White kids and— | 24:48 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Bus them all in? | 25:12 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | —And bus them all in. You see? And I paid a cab to take my kids to school all that time. | 25:13 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Really? | 25:20 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. Yeah. My kids never walked to any schools. I had a cab to take them to school. | 25:21 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did you really? | 25:28 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. But nobody rode the buses other than the White kids. You see? And also, when I lived out there too, I was in the city limits but I didn't have city water. Then I raised up Cain about that, and they ran me city water there. So I guess that's the reason they were calling me troublemaker, because I would protest anything that I didn't get that I was supposed to get, and I didn't get it right away. So that's some reason. | 25:33 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:26:13]— | 26:08 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | But really what made me want to go to school down there, see my kids went to St. Joseph's. They all started from about three, or maybe four years old. Then the class at St. Joseph's, it wasn't over 10 or 11, or 12. And certainly, you can get better training there than you can with 25 or 35 a class. | 26:13 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Yes. | 26:39 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | So when my oldest son—Yeah, that was my oldest son. When he was sitting at St. Joseph's—Yeah, that's my oldest son. When he was sitting at St. Joesph's, when he had been used to 10 or 11 in class, to send him to Tuskegee Institute and High, it had 25 or 30. Then that's what made me want to go to the White school. And the White school, they didn't have but about 10 or 11 in a class. So that was more or less what he was used to. So now, that's really what caused me to really want to send him down there at them—Not that the Black school wasn't maybe just as good, but it just had too many kids to teach. I don't care how good you are, you can't do too much when you have 25 and 30, over 11 or 12. So that's how that- | 26:43 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Isn't St. Joseph's private? | 27:36 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Let me see. | 27:39 |
| Tywanna Whorley | I mean, did you have to pay to send him there? | 27:40 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Let me see. I don't know whether I paid it or not. I don't think so. | 27:51 |
| Tywanna Whorley | But it wasn't Black students? | 27:52 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. See, it's run by the Catholic Church. I guess there were a few White people who were members of the Catholic Church, but I don't think no White kids went to the Catholic school. | 27:58 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So was it like a selection process? Because like you're saying, say at this school, if they had— | 28:07 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I don't know. | 28:07 |
| Tywanna Whorley | —about 10 kids [indistinct 00:28:20] to 25 kids. I mean, was he selected to go? | 28:07 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I really don't know he they kept it down so low. Unless we didn't have many Black Catholics here. | 28:25 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Okay. Was that one of the criteria, you had to be a Catholic? | 28:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I think so. | 28:40 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Okay. | 28:40 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I don't know why—And so, none of my children are Catholic. | 28:52 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Everybody's Baptist? | 29:00 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. Well I knew the—Well we had them—I don't know if you would really call them famous famous, but I knew the Catholic parishioners. Like the Snowden's, like the Bulls', these are all friends of mine. And the Knickerson's. | 29:02 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | But all of my children went there. I told you, that's my oldest. Now one of my children went to—We had another school didn't have 25 or 30, and that was the Children's House. And that was primarily for the staff and the faculty on the campus. And I think I had two of my children to go there. Let's see, I think that was Henry and maybe Aston, who went to the Children's House. Yeah. | 29:24 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Well I've been pretty active in the church here. I was deacon at the Baptist church there, and I guess I must have stood in pretty good with that spot. | 30:40 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Everybody [indistinct 00:30:53]? | 30:51 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Or what you call the progressive people. Well some of them would cooperate and some of them remained friends of mine, to talk me from going too fast. One of those kind of relations. Because I haven't been really in Texas, and not having come in contact as much with too many White people, I just didn't—I really didn't know too much about all that racism and whatnot, because when I was in Texas, we had our own thing. I never did aspire to do anything that the White people had because we had just about the same thing. But I think I began to learn the difference between how the Whites try to keep you back, here in Tuskegee, than— | 30:54 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Then since none of my people had any run-ins with the Whites, I never did develop that fear of White people. The White people I knew were always— | 31:49 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Pretty decent? | 32:00 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Uh-huh. I knew—I've always know the difference between the—like interracial marriage and things of that sort, but when it comes to other things, I never had any trouble. I had good relations with White people. | 32:03 |
| Tywanna Whorley | You figured out why you wanted to send your kids to the White school? | 32:23 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah, because they could get a- | 32:24 |
| Tywanna Whorley | A better education? | 32:24 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | —a better education. Uh-huh. | 32:24 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So what did you do? I mean, in terms of violence against your family, did you ask them did they want to go or no? | 32:24 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | How it really started, I had three friends here. And their names never come up too much. Let me see, Darnell Stewart, is one of them, and Mr. Dallas Sullivan, A.C. Bulls, myself and a fellow named McGovern Thompson. He is deceased. | 32:40 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Deceased? | 33:02 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. Now those five people, we met at one of those little stores up there on the block. It might have been the little shoe shop there. And I told them what my plans were and what did they think about it. And I guess they were about to—At that time, about the most aggressive people that I knew. That we knew each other. Mr. Thompson was a business partner of mine, and Della, I've been knowing her for some time. And that Bulls, I was a good friend of his daddy's. Now those Bulls, they were very prosper during that time. But I was a good friend with the daddy. And let's see, Stewart, we worked together at the VA Hospital. | 33:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And then we talked about it. It was going to be a night of extent. Then we all were members of the CCA. Then we decided to see if the CCA would support us. And it just so happened at that time, the CCA was involved with the NAACP for the State of Alabama was trying to outlaw it from being a part of Alabama. | 34:02 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:34:39]? | 34:38 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. And so the CCA was involved in that. And then they said they couldn't take on that and this case too. But Dr. Reid told me to go ahead and do the necessary things to make that petition and whatnot, and then they would help when the time came. So that's how it got started. Then I had went on and took my son down there too, as if—just like anyone else taking their kids to go to school. And then the Pruitt, the superintendent, said, "Mr. Lee, your boy can't go to school here." And then I think it was attorney Gray— | 34:40 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I had tried to get—Attorney Gray, he wasn't here. He was in Montgomery at that time. I had tried to get—I know Marseilles, who was a lawyer, and then Gray, they were all in the firm together. So then I got in touch with 'Se, and told him that I had been denied to send my boy to school there, and—But anyway, it might have taken about two or three months, but I think attorney Gray wrote the petition. Then we had to get so many people to sign it. Then I think I got 12 people to go along with me. All these people here, it was only about 12. But- | 35:28 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Do you know the names of the 12 people? | 36:16 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. I have them here in the records somewhere. I'll get it for you. What you call, Mr. Bradshaw, might have the info, but I think I have it here, these 12 families who signed the petition, and also let their kids participate. | 36:16 |
| Tywanna Whorley | How was he, in terms of getting people to—Like you said, there were so many Black people here in Tuskegee, you only got 12. | 36:39 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. | 36:58 |
| Tywanna Whorley | How did you feel about trying to convince people [indistinct 00:36:58]? | 36:58 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I think we had several meetings and we were talking about what we were fixing to do, and about the petition. And they just wanted to say what they had—They had different fears. A lot of them was working at the VA Hospital, and then some of them were working at the school, and certainly they didn't want to do anything to affect their jobs. You see? But now Della, she worked at the VA. I think most of the people I got, really worked at the VA. So they were a little more secure with the VA, than they were other places. | 36:58 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Including yourself? | 37:42 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was working at the VA as well. Let's see. | 37:48 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So in terms of losing your job, you weren't afraid? | 37:49 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. Yeah, I think just about all of us were working at the VA, that signed that petition. Mm-hmm. I think Mr. Bradshaw have all that information. That's why I have—Oh, I have a lot of information on it. And I'm not concerned too much—But those are 12 names really were important. Let me see, there's Sullen, and there was Johnson. He was working at the VA. And I believe all of us were working at the VA. They were a little more courageous with the fellow jobs than others. | 38:07 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What about the kids? [indistinct 00:38:50]. Did you sit down and talk to your kids at times, about what was happening and how they felt about it? | 38:44 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. I never did. I always—To my children, I've been pretty much of a father figure. I never had to explain too much to them. | 39:01 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Okay. No, because I was just thinking that [indistinct 00:39:25]— | 39:22 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Now the other parents, I don't know what they—Well, I think the children of these parents are more or less friends of my children. That's pretty much like it was too. | 39:25 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Okay. | 39:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And all my children have been kind of forward, well brought up as well. In church, as well as school. | 39:35 |
| Tywanna Whorley | No, I was just thinking that [indistinct 00:39:36], before this case, they've been going to Black schools and been around Black kids. Now, this suit is being filed for them to go to school with White kids. How they'd feel about being in a new environment? | 39:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, that's—Yeah. I don't know. | 39:57 |
| Tywanna Whorley | They never talked to you about if they were scared or whatever? | 40:08 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. All of that, what you think kids would be, afraid of changes, going to a new environment—Oh, let's see. Hm. Hm. That's a good question. Seems like they would never want to leave their friends and whatnot, to go to another school. | 40:15 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Yeah. | 40:47 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Do you think that? | 40:47 |
| Tywanna Whorley | That, or just now, knowing that they were going to be around White people, as opposed to being in an all Black environment, now they'd be in a White environment. Because in the beginning, it was just them themselves. It wasn't a lot of Black people. | 40:50 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No. I don't know. | 41:05 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did they- | 41:05 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Really, I ain't talk about that too much either. | 41:11 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Because I'm sure you've probably seen those phone threats— | 41:12 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, yeah. | 41:12 |
| Tywanna Whorley | —of that nature, that- | 41:12 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. | 41:12 |
| Tywanna Whorley | —obviously might have scared them or—Even if they had just some fear, about going to [indistinct 00:41:36] knowing what was going on, how Whites in Tuskegee felt about what their parents were doing. | 41:25 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Hm. Thinking that kids more inherit fears from the parents— | 41:48 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Mm-hmm. | 41:51 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | —Well, I never did have no fear. My kids have never exemplified any fear. | 41:54 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Okay. | 41:59 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And I guess it might have been true with the other. I'm going to look into that, but that's a— | 42:07 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Or just concerns. It might have just been plain old concerns. | 42:14 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. And we have gotten threats and whatnot, but it really hasn't affected my kids any. Hm. | 42:20 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What did you think about when you first started getting—I mean, did you prepare your family that we might be getting phone threats, glares at you while you're walking down the street, things like that? | 42:57 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Looking back, even at that, maybe that's something that should have been taken into consideration. But I know me and my wife, we never did discuss, and we never did try to prepare our children in any special way. | 42:59 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Hm. Okay. | 43:19 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And that's why it wasn't really of any—But she never did show any fear either. So she intercepted one of the threatening calls and she told them, said they ought to think more of themselves than to be calling and talking like that. She said, "You ought to be ashamed of—" I think it really kind of shamed them out too, because you know how White folks talk nasty and whatnot, and she's talking as if they were stooping pretty low to talk like that. And that kind of— | 43:27 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Then my oldest son received—Well what they tried to do too, they tried to involve my children with the little White girls. You know, that's one of those type of things and—Then after they didn't get to my children, neither my wife, then they called over—Well they sound like Ku Klux Klan to me, and said they're going to come and get my ass. You know? | 44:24 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Mm-hmm. | 45:04 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And I had said, "Well if you're coming to get my ass, you'll have to bring ass to get ass. And you don't know whose ass will be—" And also, some of my friends kind of knew about it, transferred me too. At that time, Haggins Street was up here where I built this home. It's a dead end just below my house. A lot of students stay there with my wife now. I've got a six room house there. Four bedrooms and a basement, all fixed up, full kitchen and whatnot, so she keeps some students when she can find them. Trust me, she's somewhere. | 45:04 |
| Tywanna Whorley | At the school. | 45:51 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Particularly. You see? But anyways, my neighbor had came and heard about them threatening to get me, even before that, and they lived up the street on—Haggins Street is right in front of the—What's this church here? The AME Church, that's Haggins Street, right there. And so Mr. [indistinct 00:46:17]— | 45:54 |
| Tywanna Whorley | No, you know? | 0:12 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. | 0:12 |
| Tywanna Whorley | And when you said it was going—If they can, they going [indistinct 00:00:15] now? | 0:15 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Oh, you got it on? So really, when I chatted about that, I didn't have anymore difficulty. I ran for probate judge one time and— | 0:20 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Really? | 0:36 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. And oh man, I spent a lot of money. I had my picture on a big—You know, just like the White folks do, on a big placard or whatnot. | 0:37 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Mm-hmm. | 0:44 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And I took and ran all over the county, and I found out those people—And I would nail them up on the tree and the people would take them down. And when I'd leave them at the house, I found out that they was hiding them. And I guess I was dumb or surprised or something. But you know, if they had voted for me that time—And you know, most of them were shopping with the White people, that would've cut them off. And I didn't have sense enough to know that. | 0:45 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Mm-hmm. | 1:16 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | But that was picture they made me—I had a picture in here somewhere now, have the Ku Klux Klan in sheets and I was right in between them with a hood on but I was Black. I think I got that in here somewhere now. And somebody wrote my name up on the water tank. Detroit Lee SOB. You know. None of them was facing me, but kind of clandestine. I don't know why. Well— | 1:27 |
| Tywanna Whorley | You said the [indistinct 00:01:54]? | 1:49 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. Yeah. | 1:49 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Why? What made you decide to run? | 1:49 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Well, I had been—And I said my mother worked for a probate judge. And I really knew just about what the probate judges do. It's just more or less an administrative thing. You don't have to be a lawyer to tell that story. Course I have taken correspondence course in law and bookkeeping, so that made me a little more qualified. | 1:59 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And so back in the—You just wasn't used to other Black people running for public office. For the Whites, until fairly recent, had everything down there and Booker Washington and most of them, they dealt with the White people downtown. And as I said, I didn't know there was anything like downtown for a long time since I was here. But anyway—Well, you know. I thought I had just as much right running for probate judge as the Whites. But the majority of Blacks didn't think that. And that was a shocker to me now. You was up here, course just getting training at the university, Tuskegee Institute at the time, and a lot of people on the campus didn't vote for me. A lot of Black people didn't vote for me. | 2:26 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Were there—Just some were registered voters during that time? Black people? | 3:42 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah, there was quite a few registered voters at that time. You know we had a hard time getting registered to vote. It just so happened, I got registered to vote, I think it was in '49. And when I got registered to vote—Let's see, who vouched for me? I think Mr. Webb and—But right after that, when the White people saw that the Blacks was coming numerous, kind of getting about then they shut down and wouldn't register us. So that was my wife and there was a lady by the name of Dr. Sheaver, she had a PhD and she didn't get registered, and she's White too. But she was working on the campus at that time. So then that's—You know, when the registrar began to hide and whatnot. It's a long history about how we found out how they was hiding and registering other White people in to vote. We went through a lot of things to get them to register us. | 3:42 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So you had to have two White people vouch for you? | 4:39 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | It was one Black vouched for me and I think I had—I think it was GB Evers, I think was White. I mean, I had some pretty good business relations with the White people because when I bought my house, I bought furniture. I had pretty good credit with the White people because that's the only one who could sell you furniture and refrigerators and things of that sort. And working at the VA too, a lot of Black people had pretty good credit, but they just only used the credit to get the things that they want and wouldn't use their leverage for anything else. | 4:53 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | You know, good niggers more or less. And White people didn't mind that. They'd let you have anything you want since we had a better job with the VA hospital and school. So I think I had one Black man for me and I had two Whites. You supposed to have three people to vouch for you. So I think I got two Whites and one Black and so I didn't have any difficulty getting registered. | 5:38 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What did you think about that? That you had to have two White people vouch for you. Or you had to have people vouch for you period. | 6:21 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah, I didn't think anything about that. I just knew that was the system, to have them vouch. I didn't think about any racial element in that at that time. But it wasn't too long after that before the racial element that really came up. There always been a few Black people who—But when the masses began to register, then that's when the White people kind of get scared. I don't think White people were scared of maybe Dr. Moton or any of those people because they really wasn't no threat to them downtown. But I— | 6:23 |
| Tywanna Whorley | How were they even [indistinct 00:07:08] filed a suit? | 7:07 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Huh? | 7:07 |
| Tywanna Whorley | How was [indistinct 00:07:09] filed a suit? | 7:07 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | You mean the school case? | 7:12 |
| Tywanna Whorley | No [indistinct 00:07:13] | 7:12 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh. | 7:13 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:07:15] | 7:13 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, things got kind of— | 7:16 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Worse than with the school? [indistinct 00:07:27] | 7:21 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I think it was about the same for—I think the White people began to come to, especially the business people, began to come to recognize the value of Tuskegee. But I guess they just afraid that the Blacks would take over what they had downtown and they, of course, were really trying to defend that. Until that happened, quite a few of us had nice relations downtown. You could get just about anything the White man had. | 7:28 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Even if he was [indistinct 00:08:08] a lot of times [indistinct 00:08:11] increased the weights sometimes. But I don't know if he thought anything much about that at that time. But I guess White people begin to get scared when the—I could've had a little something to do with that because there wasn't no such thing as the NAACP here. And the Tuskegee Civil Association didn't do too much. They just had—You know, Tuskegee—Kind of a social men club and just [indistinct 00:08:50] got kind of— | 8:04 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Aggressive? | 9:15 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Aggressive. So I don't know. | 9:15 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Were women part of the NAACP? | 9:15 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Huh? | 9:15 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Women? | 9:15 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | What? | 9:15 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Were there women members of the NAACP? | 9:15 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Uh-huh. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but they all kind of docile. Well, see at this time most Black people work at the VA and the schools. You know. And that was about the best thing. And I guess when people like myself and a few others came in and wanted more than the school and the VA. We hadn't thought about that because—And other than the troublemaker in my folder, I never did confront any White people that were hostile per se. | 9:16 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Here another time when they might kind have thought a little different towards me than they did the average person around here, I was a [indistinct 00:10:21] my church. Then the Black minister and the White minister, sometimes they would have a joint meeting and discuss joint things. But the rank and file membership couldn't go to either churches. But since I was a sexton in my church and I went with my pastor to one of those joint meetings and saw how cozy it was, and then I knew some of the White people who was more or less deacons or officers in that church and I was doing business with them. | 10:07 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And then the White minister and the Black, they would share the pulpit but hardly any intermingling otherwise. So I just got down there, I said, "We all serve the same God and we have faith in God." I said, "I believe I'll go to the White Baptist church here." You know, we came out of the White Baptist church. I just thought about that really, and it wasn't a devilish thing. They was truly on a religious conventional basis. So I taught Sunday school and whatnot in my church and went to [indistinct 00:12:02] I thought I was just pretty much a all around church member. | 11:05 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | So I decided I would visit the White Baptist church one Sunday. And I think this is after school involvement as well. Because I didn't feel any animosity or hostility with the merchants, because I bought cars and bought furniture and whatnot, did a little banking with the banker down there [indistinct 00:12:40] So I used to take my Bible to church and Sunday school. So I put my Bible in my hand and I—Let's see, I parked my car. I think I might've parked my car downtown and I just walking up the streets to the Baptist church there. So I got there about time for service. | 12:06 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And usually, actually the deacon was at the door to welcome people in. So when I got there, so two of the people that I had bought cars from seen me. And they was pretty much puzzled. I could see they was completely taken aback. And they said, "Detroit, I don't think you want to worship here today." And they was almost trembling. Because you know, I was doing business with them and [indistinct 00:13:39] It was one I bought a car from [indistinct 00:13:41] what did I— | 13:04 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | So I saw that they were so uncomfortable, so I didn't force the issue. And I could feel how much pressure was on them and it just really killed my spirit. But that soon got out, Detroit went to the White church and so forth. And really, that was in the New York Times about that time. And then here, too many people here didn't say anything about it but it was in the New York Times that I made an attempt to go to the White Baptist church and couldn't go. Uh-huh. So I guess that was troublemaking to some people. But as I say, [indistinct 00:14:39] done business with no White people in there that come face to face or threatened me or said anything to me. | 13:45 |
| Tywanna Whorley | It's being done undercover? | 14:47 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. It must've been—Yeah. Undercover. I know they didn't like it, but—But I don't know why they didn't threaten me. I was telling—Running certain people out of town who was the troublemakers. But no one— | 14:47 |
| Tywanna Whorley | You remember the first day of school? When you had won the case and the first day that you had to take your kids to school? | 15:05 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh yeah. Now that there—That first day, the White people was there. Was already in school and so our kids—So it was—Yeah, they was riding the bus at that time. Took them down there. But what happened, Wallace had sent the posse along. And he closed the whole school. Whites went home and the Blacks as well. So they just closed the school down the first day. Then after that, then the judge ordered that the Black kids be sent to Notasulga. That was the only high school then. This school was closed down. And the other Blacks could be sent to the school, Shorter. | 15:22 |
| Tywanna Whorley | They didn't integrate [indistinct 00:16:22] | 16:18 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's right. And I think all the White kids even left Shorter for a long time. | 16:23 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What about the ones right here? The ones in school that was trying to integrate? The White people? | 16:35 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I think they—Let's see, was Macon Academy—I don't know when that school was built. But they would send their kids to neighboring schools. Yeah, there just any school that wasn't integrated in the neighborhood, they would send. They sent some of them to Montgomery and Opelika, other places where—Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. It was a great travesty on the White people. | 16:44 |
| Tywanna Whorley | What did you think about that? | 17:17 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Who, me? Oh. | 17:19 |
| Tywanna Whorley | I mean [indistinct 00:17:26] their—not nastiness, but their intent of how they wanted to maintain [indistinct 00:17:36] | 17:22 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | I really don't think I gave any thought to that. Only thing I was concentrating about that—Yeah, and that the segregation per se was illegal, you know. And if they want to be illegal, well you know, they—For whatever reason. I just didn't concentrate too much on that. Only thing I was interested in getting equal rights for the Black kids, including mine. Yeah, no. I don't know. I guess I was think—I don't know why. | 17:36 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Did you ever talk to the students later on after they'd graduated? Did you ever [indistinct 00:18:26] talk to the kids about what their experience was and what happened in the case? | 18:15 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Oh, you know they tried to burn the Notasulga school down to keep the kids from going there. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. And it just so happened, my son was kind of the leader of the group. They was all his classmates and instead of them getting frightened, they just came out the school just orderly and then they called for them back in school. Yeah. They didn't have as much difficulty down at Shorter, that's elementary, than they did at the high school. But they had— | 18:33 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | And here's something ain't anything been said too much about. There was a White student on the bus. He was supposed to been—He was a photographer and he was going to write a story about the kids who went to Notasulga. And this was the son of a wealthy White Montgomery fellow named Merritt. And they took that boy off the school and beat him up. And we never did hear too much more about it. And he—member of a wealthy family in Montgomery. He was just riding along with the children to get a story. His name was Merritt. And never heard too much about it. | 19:07 |
| Tywanna Whorley | They took him off the school bus? | 20:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. Yeah. He was on the—I don't know [indistinct 00:20:06] wasn't really anybody who wasn't going to school could've got on the school bus. He just happened on those six kids in high school. But he was on the bus with them to see what was going to happen, to write a story about the— | 20:07 |
| Tywanna Whorley | So they didn't bother the Black kids but they took him? | 20:22 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-mm they didn't bother Black kids. Sure beat that White boy up. Because the Black kids, they was under federal protection. For several days, I followed the school bus. The bus was [indistinct 00:20:44] my house was on Hagen Street, so my kids got on. I had some going to both schools. And I'd get in my car and I'd follow the bus almost to Notasulga. I was afraid that—You know, they had several people but some White people might still run the bus off [indistinct 00:21:01] running the bus off the road. But then I guess my car was about the only one that could follow the bus, with the federal men even behind me. But it was pretty well under control by that time. | 20:26 |
| Tywanna Whorley | And the other time [indistinct 00:21:22] | 21:16 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | No, it just me and one other fellow. Me and this Southern cousin. His name was—He's dead now. Palmer. Palmer Southern and myself. The only two. A lot of the Blacks were scared too, but some of them just was courageous enough to go along. But I guess that's [indistinct 00:21:43] we got about 12 families who would— | 21:22 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Do you think that's any—That times are changing here in Tuskegee? [indistinct 00:22:14] race relations? | 22:14 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Is it now? | 22:14 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Yes. | 22:14 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Well you know, the White people, they actually got in a majority and got in various public offices. They just ceased to have anything to do with public office. It would be fine if—I think it would be much better if we had some White people who would take part because now it's just all Black. | 22:14 |
| Tywanna Whorley | [indistinct 00:22:42] | 22:40 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Mm-hmm. Don't have any on the city council, only have two at the county commission. So just about the whole thing is all Black now. Mm-hmm. | 22:44 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Do you think that might be one reason why Tuskegee is probably still [indistinct 00:23:04] | 22:58 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | You know, I think that the Black people who have taken over, if they were maybe a little better prepared, had a little different understanding. | 23:17 |
| Tywanna Whorley | They'd be a lot more— | 23:32 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah, I mean, with the VA hospital here, with the school here, if we had the right administration downtown, I don't see why this place couldn't blow just like any other place. | 23:35 |
| Tywanna Whorley | Oh yeah. Definitely. You can tell [indistinct 00:23:47] | 23:43 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Yeah. Oh yeah. I don't think—You know, look, we got the university, we got the VA hospital here. So right now, Dr. Payton and Mayor Ford doesn't get along too well together. And Mayor Ford and Chairman Lee doesn't get along too well together. So I think Mayor Ford might be the greatest hindrance than any single thing here. Yep. | 23:47 |
| Tywanna Whorley | All right. Thank you. | 24:03 |
| Detroit N.M.N. Lee | Okay. | 24:03 |
Item Info
Related Items
The preservation of the Duke University Libraries Digital Collections and the Duke Digital Repository programs are supported in part by the Lowell and Eileen Aptman Digital Preservation Fund