Leon White interview recording, 1994 June 17
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Transcript
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Leon White | You want me to give my name? This way you start where you ask the question anyway. Don't have to work. | 0:05 |
Paul Ortiz | Mr. White, I wonder if we could start off with you telling me about where you were born and a little bit about community that you were raised in. | 0:12 |
Leon White | Yes. Okay. Yes. I was born in Birmingham, Alabama, right at the site now that's occupied by the Civic Center, which was numbers in July the first 1920. The address was 173 Brittain Street. That was on 20th Street between 10th and 11th Avenue North. My father was a miner. He was forced to be a miner for the city of Birmingham. He was arrested, which of which they claim he broke the law of Birmingham at the time. He and a friend of his was playing cards on the back steps of 1073 Brittain Street for matchsticks. | 0:26 |
Leon White | And the police arrested him claiming that they were gambling and there wasn't any gambling involved, no money involved in it. At that time it was the law in Birmingham that no Black person was supposed to have a dice or card on their person or in their house. And they were paying cards just for fun for matchsticks on the back porch and they arrested them. And at that time if you was arrested for breaking the law, their law, they claimed, they would send you off the road gang, in the steel mill or in the mine where the city of Birmingham would collect the funds from him. | 1:20 |
Paul Ortiz | And he was sent to working the mine in the city that you were born? | 2:07 |
Leon White | Yes. That was after I was born. | 2:12 |
Paul Ortiz | Did you have a memory of when this happened? That—Well how old were you? | 2:15 |
Leon White | At the time that this happened then? Well, I was approximately between four and five years old at the time at least I remember this. Because he used to come in from the mine and I used to grab that lantern that used to be on the miner's cap over there, where they have the light to you light it, which have carbide in it and you light it where you go into the mine tunnel and it makes the light where you can mine the coal from it. I remember that because although I was a young kid then between four and five years old, but I remember that. | 2:21 |
Paul Ortiz | So what kind of work did he do after that period? | 2:57 |
Leon White | Well, unfortunately to announce that he, through working in that mine, he created pneumonia and died. My father died in 1927. In other words, they call that black lung that he caught in that mine, working in the mine. | 3:04 |
Paul Ortiz | And that was when he was still working on [indistinct 00:03:41] convict. | 3:32 |
Leon White | No, he had served the time as a convict. And by him putting him into that mine, then he was hired to work in the mine. | 3:41 |
Paul Ortiz | What about your mother? | 3:50 |
Leon White | Well at the time my mother, so a little before then, they had separated and my mother went to Detroit. She had taken me to Detroit, Michigan in 1926. I remember that. And then when we arrived there, my father became real ill with that Black lung. In 1927, she sent me back to Birmingham because my father was passing. And I stayed here in Birmingham from 19 at the time that she sent me back to Birmingham with my grandmother. And she decided to let me stay down here with my grandmother. And I came back. My father passed in 1927. And then as time went on, I went to school here in Birmingham at the time, in 1928. That is when this happened, that store there. 1928, when I started working at this store, I was just a kid, eight years old. | 3:52 |
Paul Ortiz | What was it like living with your grandmother? Could you tell me a little bit about her? | 5:00 |
Leon White | My grandmother was really a great person to live for and thanks to almighty God and may she rest in peace. She taught me as much as she knew from the Bible. And the main thing, she told me the truth. That is the main thing about life and everything. And see by me having a grandmother in the house—And during that time you had mothers and fathers, not only in the house, you had mothers and fathers out there in the street of Birmingham. And then those people back during that time, back in the late twenties and early thirties, proved to the world that a mother, a father, a sister, a brother, doesn't have to come out of the same womb. Because it proved to me that it takes a whole house, neighborhood, city, and a state to raise kids. | 5:05 |
Paul Ortiz | What street and area were you living in at that time? | 6:02 |
Leon White | I was living on 16th Street between 7th and 8th Avenue at that time. | 6:05 |
Paul Ortiz | What was the neighborhood like? Were there primarily affluent people that lived in that | 6:16 |
Leon White | That area? Well at that time we had Afro-Americans on 16th Street down to 10th Avenue. And then cross 10th Avenue all the way up to about 15th Avenue were Jewish people. And around the corner from 16th Street at the corner from 8th Avenue up until on out to about 21st, 21st street was White. And around in the alleys and on the 16th Street there was Afro-American. | 6:23 |
Paul Ortiz | Did your grandmother take you to church during that period of time? | 7:11 |
Leon White | Most of the time my grandmother taught me in the house. I would go to church, but she would stay home. She was a housekeeper. She would mostly stay home. And I had a good church then because the church then was different from, I believe from the church of today, because church then everybody was together. | 7:16 |
Paul Ortiz | Which church was that? | 7:36 |
Leon White | Macedonia Baptist Church. | 7:37 |
Paul Ortiz | Is that still—? | 7:42 |
Leon White | In Birmingham? It was on a 9th alley and 17th Street. | 7:44 |
Paul Ortiz | Is that still there? | 7:50 |
Leon White | No, no. It has moved now. It is Macedonia 17th Street Baptist Church. It is up on Fountain Heights now. | 7:51 |
Paul Ortiz | What were some of the things that you did at church? | 8:04 |
Leon White | So I sang in number two choir and then I was a usher. And also I was attended Sunday School regularly, BYPU and service Sundays. See back during the time I'm speaking of, the Sabbath Day was observed by the whole community then. It's not like it is today. In today's world, everybody go to church and hope that they can get out and use the Sabbath Day to maybe to look at the football game, basketball game et cetera. But back during that time, the Sabbath day was observed and the Sunday was the Sabbath day. | 8:10 |
Paul Ortiz | You mentioned that your grandmother was a housekeeper. | 8:52 |
Leon White | Yes. | 8:55 |
Paul Ortiz | Did she do any of the kinds of work, public work? | 8:55 |
Leon White | No. No, she didn't do any type of work. See, I was a dropout from school. She wanted to go to work and in order to keep me from dropping out. But I told her, "No, I'd rather drop out," because at the time, jobs were scarce for Black people, especially the job that would pay any type of money. And I wouldn't let her do it. I told her no. I said, "I'll go on and work and then later on, if I get the chance, then I'd go on and resume my education." | 9:00 |
Paul Ortiz | What school were you going to? | 9:36 |
Leon White | The first school I went to was Slater School. | 9:38 |
Paul Ortiz | And that was in downtown Birmingham? | 9:41 |
Leon White | Yeah, downtown Birmingham. Where Jim Burke is at now. Motor place there. Yeah, Jim Burke. They closed it. Then I moved from Slater School to Lincoln School. It's a Lincoln Middle School now. And from middle school I was promoted in 1934 I went to Industrial High School, which is now Parker High. | 9:42 |
Paul Ortiz | What was Industrial High School like in the thirties? | 10:14 |
Leon White | Industrial High School was a great school. In my views in today's world, the schools of today are schools of learning. I agree with that. But Industrial High School was more than that, it was a School of learned student. See the difference between a school of learning and a school of learning school, the school will learn you and if you don't want to get it or whatnot and they don't want to be bothered with you, they give you a good mark and pass you on and get rid of you. | 10:20 |
Leon White | But in Industrial High School, we had each subject. You could get straight A's in all seven of them and get a P or F in one of those other subjects, you would stay in that class another semester or either go to summer school. And that's why the reason I say that Parker High then, Industrial High School was not a school of learning, but a School of learned students. You went in as a student, when you came out you was a scholar. | 10:48 |
Paul Ortiz | Do you remember any of your teachers back then? | 11:23 |
Leon White | Yes. Mr. Robert A. Jones, he taught me science. Mr. Power, handy craft. Mrs. Tessehee, math. Mrs. Mary Clark, math. Mrs. Nims, social science. I can name a bunch them, Mrs. Hudson, English. I could just go down that whole list, but that's enough. | 11:27 |
Paul Ortiz | But you would say that you had a good experience? | 12:28 |
Leon White | Yes, a good experience. And then too, what I liked about those teachers then, they didn't have calculators and whatnot. The teacher challenged you and here's the word teaching that they gave me. Now I'm here, I'm 74 in two more weeks. The teacher said, "Leon, 8 times 8." I had to say, "64." "9 times 7." "63." "6 times 6." "36." "4 times 4." "16." I had to do it like that. You couldn't stand up there. You stand erect. You couldn't stand up there and count your fingers like that calculator and whatnot. No, they wanted directly from the pen and pencil. Yes. | 12:28 |
Paul Ortiz | And you attended Industrial High School from 1934 to— | 13:03 |
Leon White | I got promoted to 1934. I spent one year because I dropped out. | 13:09 |
Paul Ortiz | And I wonder if we could could back up one minute because I'm looking at the work that you're were doing here. | 13:21 |
Leon White | All right. | 13:28 |
Paul Ortiz | And you say that- | 13:28 |
Leon White | 1928, when it started there. That's when I started. | 13:33 |
Paul Ortiz | You say August 8th, it was this day 1927. | 13:36 |
Leon White | Yes, it was actually 20—Well see that's when I met them in '27, but I started working for them, it was between '27 and '28. | 13:41 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. And you began working in this grocery store between 1927 and 1928. How did you get the job working at the grocery store? Can you tell me a little bit that? | 13:50 |
Leon White | All right, I can tell you about that. That's clear as a crystal. That family here, where we started there, I was playing, like I told you, my mother sent me back and my father died in 1927, I was sitting in the yard. That's where the building, right on the corner alley. I sat in the yard. And this certain, this Jewish fellow, which we call Dad Coin, his actual name is S.A. Coin. He would see me sitting out there in the yard and see me stacking blocks that my mother gave me in Detroit, stacking them like that. | 14:01 |
Leon White | And then I would say 3 times 5 and 15, 3 times 6 is 18, like that. He would stand up there and listen to me because he had came from the synagogue. That synagogue was Knesseth Israel, which is on 17th Street and 7th Avenue then. And he had to come by my house and all by the store and my house before he get to the store. And he used to stand out there and watch me. | 14:34 |
Leon White | So he asked my one time, "Hey kid, how would you like to come in the grocery store, my store down there on the corner and stack that fruit like you stack those boxes, those blocks out there?" I told him, I said, "You have to see my grandmother." He said, "Where is she at?" I called her, I said, "Grandmother, a gentleman out here want to see you like that." And she talked to him and said, "No, he's just a little baby," and said, "His mother don't want him out of my sight like that." He told us, I'll never forget this, "Oh, I'll take care of him and everything." | 15:01 |
Leon White | So she decided to let me go down there after he had been asking about five or six times. I'll never forget that day because the Jewish holiday was about to become that Passover. And I remember and he took me down in the corner of the store, put me on a tall box, put a apron around me, rolled it up around me and had me stacking apples and oranges in the window like that. And that's when it started. And thank God I got what you call in-hand training how to merchandise, how to take inventory. And then all I learned all of that because I worked for various companies. | 15:31 |
Paul Ortiz | What was the name of that? | 16:13 |
Leon White | S.A. Coin and Son Grocery. 1601 8th Avenue North. | 16:14 |
Paul Ortiz | And was that your first job? | 16:26 |
Leon White | That was my first job. Eight years old because that's what I was doing. You know what he used to pay me for doing that? 10 cents a day, and 10 cents was a lot of money then. I could go to the movies down here for a nickel. | 16:28 |
Paul Ortiz | Where did you go to the movie? | 16:48 |
Leon White | Well at that time we had the famous theater, which is on 4th Avenue district. | 16:48 |
Paul Ortiz | Carmen Theater? | 16:53 |
Leon White | We had, well the Carmen came up later. We had The Frolic Theater. | 16:54 |
Paul Ortiz | So Famous Theater? | 17:00 |
Leon White | Famous, F-A-M-O-U-S, The Champion Theater, C-H-A-M-P-I-O-N, and Frolic Theater, F-R-O-L-I-C. | 17:02 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. Could you tell me a little bit about these theaters? Were these theaters where you could go, you could see the movie on one particular day or—? | 17:12 |
Leon White | No. No. On those days there we were allowed to go. Those were predominant Black theaters. | 17:24 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. They were Black only. | 17:32 |
Leon White | Now the big theater that you had, which was the biggest one I believe at that time in the south, was The Alabama, which is predominant White. We could only go there at that time once a year and that's when green pastors played. I never will forget that. And then we had to go into the part at the alley around there and go up the stairs all the way to the top deck up the stairs. We wasn't allowed on the main floor where the Whites were, we had to go upstairs. And then you had the Lyric Theater. You pay right here at the Lyric. It's right there. The building right there. I wish I could walk, I'll show you these places. | 17:33 |
Paul Ortiz | Well, maybe we can take a walk sometime. I'll be here for a couple weeks. | 18:18 |
Leon White | Okay. | 18:19 |
Paul Ortiz | So I just want to make sure I have this right. Yeah. Famous Theater. | 18:23 |
Leon White | Right? | 18:26 |
Paul Ortiz | Frolic Theater. | 18:26 |
Leon White | Right. Champion Theater. | 18:28 |
Paul Ortiz | Those were Black only—? | 18:30 |
Leon White | Predominant Black theater. Then we had another one in Pantages, but it was White. It was up there on the next corner. | 18:31 |
Paul Ortiz | And then the Lyric Theater was— | 18:42 |
Leon White | It was same as The Alabama. It was predominant White. We had to go way upstairs. | 18:44 |
Paul Ortiz | What kinds of movies did you see when you were that age that you—? | 18:53 |
Leon White | Well, I can remember most of them were chapter pictures, like the Lost City. And I remember the first talking picture that came to Birmingham. I saw it at the Famous Theater, which is the Seventh Heaven. And I remember the stars that was in it, Jeanette Gainer and Charles Farrell, F-A-R-R-E-L. And Jeanette Gainer. But I also got a chance to see by my mother living in Detroit, I saw the first talking picture. I remember it was Al Joseph, Ruby Keeler in the Singing Food. That's where the song Sonny Boy came from. | 18:56 |
Paul Ortiz | What did you think about Al Jo? | 19:43 |
Leon White | Al Joseph? He was great. I like the way he sang. | 19:44 |
Paul Ortiz | So it's 1928, you're working at S.A. Coin. | 19:54 |
Leon White | Right. | 19:58 |
Paul Ortiz | You're learning how to do kinds of right kinds of work. | 19:58 |
Leon White | Yeah. | 19:58 |
Paul Ortiz | What kind of people shop at S.A. Coin? | 19:58 |
Leon White | Now, that's what it is. Some famous people, I can go through all of them right there. See, Birmingham didn't have any great businesses. Look up there how you see some professional people. You see some people that rich people in there. Those are the ones that really built Birmingham. And then you see a lot of good politicians in there. You see some great people that have made big names out in there, even in the movies and whatnot. And those names over there is what built Birmingham, those businesses and things there. They shopped at that store. | 20:11 |
Leon White | And you know how I got all those names? I remember I used to—You know what he did? After I was 11 years old, you know what he would do? He would let me answer the phone and everything, and I'd take those people orders and everything and get it up. And then we had about 12 or 15 employees in there. That was the largest corner store, it was, in Birmingham at the time. Because ANP and Hill Grocery Company, this ain't a place with no larger than that didn't sell fresh meat. And we sold it all. | 20:47 |
Paul Ortiz | What kinds of merchandise did you sell? You sold fresh meat. | 21:16 |
Leon White | Fresh meat. Western beef. Kosher food. We had food there for every type of person, whether you Italian, Greek or whatnot. We had that. And that was the only store that you could get what they call Jewish kosher foods there where you could make your gefilte fish, [indistinct 00:21:40] and all of that, Challah var and everything, ooh, yes. | 21:21 |
Paul Ortiz | Did Black people shop in that store? | 21:48 |
Leon White | Yeah. I can tell you the history of them. And then when the Depression came, and one thing I give him credit, he fixed it up in the prices and everything where everybody could shop there. And a lot of times there. Where people was disabled, people didn't have food and everything and he make the prices so that they could buy food. And you go in there to buy the nail, but the nickel of 7 cent or something like that, and he'd give you something, because here's what would happen, we sold fish cheaper than anybody was in Birmingham, where the rest of the shore was selling it seven and a half cents a pound, which is two pounds for 15 cents. We were selling it three pounds per dime, which is three and third cent for pound, a pound like that. Three pound for a dime. | 21:50 |
Leon White | And then on Saturday night we didn't have freezers and things like they have today. Just like it'd be two fish left. Now that fish may weigh maybe a pound and a half. All right. If it's three pound for a dime, that's a nickel. Now what he would do, you know what he do, he'd take that fish and give it to somebody because, you know why, they'd close on Saturday, he'd have to go and buy 25 pounds of ice, which cost 10 cents to keep that fish till Sunday and what we used to keep it till Monday. But we used to use five with fish and you spend 10 with ice on it. See I give him credit for that. He give it away. Yeah. | 22:34 |
Paul Ortiz | What was Birmingham like in the 1930s? | 23:14 |
Leon White | Oh, it was rough. Especially, you had, well the White was the ruling class at the time and everything. And segregation and discriminatory practices was the highest law. Then just like I have seen a bunch of my young friends and everything at the time that went to jail, that was really innocent. During that time if somebody did something cross that mountain and they didn't find out who did it, they'd come over here on the north side or in the area here and grab somebody who was helpless, put them in jail. And you wouldn't know what had happened and what'd you do. And better not ask the question why, then you get beat up. | 23:20 |
Paul Ortiz | Do you remember what Kelly—Well, was Kelly Ingram Park, did that have the same name in the thirties? | 24:10 |
Leon White | Yes. Kelly Ingram Park was created—I think I know the one that got the petition and making that park, if I'm not mistaken. I think it was Mrs. Coil. Her husband was the president of the Alabama Power Company. And I think a friend of her got killed on one of those ships, he was a sailor Ships of World War I. And I think she got the petition up, and then they named it Kelly Ingram Park. And then over there on that right hand side over there where the AT&T at, that used to be a school called Henley School. It's a predominant White school. | 24:23 |
Paul Ortiz | Henley School? | 25:01 |
Leon White | Henley School. And see, I lived down on 16th Street and just like they used that upper part over there for the swing for those kids, on this side of the park over there, the police would be in this car and on this end up here, he'd be in this car. At that time you had over 23 parks in the city of Birmingham, not a Black was allowed and either one of them. And then at that time when those kids be out there, you wasn't allowed to being Black to walk through that then because the kids be on that. And then too, again, if you walk through that parking step on the grass and be Black and everything, you going to jail. | 25:02 |
Paul Ortiz | At Kelly Ingram? | 25:41 |
Leon White | Yeah. Kelly Ingram Park. Yeah. I can remember way back. I wouldn't take a thousand dollars or a million dollars for the experience I've had. And then some of these things I wouldn't take $10 million to go through with it again. | 25:44 |
Paul Ortiz | Do you remember any protests in Kelly Ingram Park during the 1930s? | 26:01 |
Leon White | Thirties? | 26:09 |
Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 26:10 |
Leon White | Not in the thirties, no. Let's see. Before '63, let's see. No. No, but we had one guy named Emerald Jackson for the Birmingham World, he always did protest. He's a Black man. He died a few years ago. Emerald Jackson. He was the editor for the Birmingham World. | 26:11 |
Paul Ortiz | Did you read that newspaper during the thirties? | 26:39 |
Leon White | Thirties? | 26:43 |
Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 26:46 |
Leon White | Yes. Because people was right over there on 6th Avenue across from 16th Street Baptist Church. Now when that church would bombed, you know where I was at? I was at Chicken Park on the 16th Street side, near the alley there when that bomb went off, September the 22nd. I never will forget that. Yes I was. That was a bad day. | 26:46 |
Paul Ortiz | When was Kelly Ingram Park—Do you remember when Black people could first have access to Kelly Ingram Park? | 27:14 |
Leon White | Let's see. I still don't believe they got access to it now because it's still Kelly Ingram Park. I can't see. Now in the sixties now they would be marching through that park and then you had the dogs and the powers in it. But you didn't have access to that then. Because first they come out of 16th Street after church, they had the wagon waiting on and put them in jail. So I don't know what year was they accepted them because—I'm telling the truth, when you say civil right institute, you know what that mean? When you say civil, that that's governmental. And see, we still haven't got an institute whether we should have because—Uh-huh, I can't see it. | 27:25 |
Paul Ortiz | So during the thirties you said that life in Birmingham was pretty rough. | 28:21 |
Leon White | Yes it was. | 28:29 |
Paul Ortiz | What were some other things about Birmingham during the thirties that you remember? | 28:32 |
Leon White | Well, let's see, in Birmingham, well I've seen a lot of us get beat up unjustifiably. But thank God that I was with a group of a family that was interested into me. That's what kept me out of trouble. Because what was happening, I was going and meeting him at the market in the morning at 3:45. And then we come to the store at five o'clock, unload the store, unload the truck in the store, put the display in the window and then go home and go find my grandmother to fix my breakfast and then my lunch and I go to school. | 28:37 |
Leon White | Then I get out school at 3:00 o'clock. 10 after 3:00, my grandmother's rule was I had to be home. And at 4:00 o'clock I'd be down there at the store after I eat and be in that store. That's the only thing that saved me. But I did have a run in with the Ku Klux Klan too. Because what was happening, they saw me in that store over there. And they always did try to catch me. And I was on the track team of Lincoln School at that time. And I don't why it was because, see if we come out, this show right here, right over there, the Famous Theater, these Urban Impact got that building now, right over there, come out of that dust dogging. | 29:11 |
Leon White | And where I'm living at now, used to be a hotel here, predominantly White hotel. And they used to watch the police run us through Kelly Ingram Park. See that big rock in the middle of the park, rock that's on that end down there on 17th Street? It was in the middle of it then. And the police used to run people in this hotel here where we at now, just catching, catching. They used to like you see them running. Yeah, it was really rough. Yes it was. | 29:51 |
Paul Ortiz | When you were growing up in Birmingham, did you go to see any musicians that came and played in Birmingham? | 30:22 |
Leon White | I'm glad you asked that question. I used to stand right over there on that corner. See that's Masonic camp, that big building. It was built in 1920, the same year I was born. I used to stand over there on that corner. And all the bands, the Black bands that come to town, that's where they came, on that second floor. And I used to say, "Gee, I'll be glad when I get a big boy so I can go in there and see." I see the men dressed up society like hell. I used to call them grasshopper suits. And the lady dress. And I'd be glad. Now in two more weeks, I'll be 74 years old, I guess I ain't got a big boy yet. I ain't been in there yet. | 30:35 |
Leon White | But I can name some of the great bands that been in there and I've seen them. And they used to come down to that grocery store where I was at. That was the only store that they come in with their buses and load up to get enough drinks and sandwiches and everything to drink right there. You had Duke Ellington that came here and then you had Cab Calloway came here. And then our local own, Erskine Hawkins. I've been knew him well before he died. Yes, I've got all the name bands in there and there's Erskine Hawkins and all a bunch of them. | 31:15 |
Leon White | The whole bunch of them in there that I got his name down there. Good ones, Red and Curly Lionel Hampton, all of them used to come here. And they come down to their store because that was the only store. The other little stores down here, they only get two cases of pop when the drink man come every other week or something like that. See we were getting 30 and 40 cases three times a week. That was a big story. They're dealing still in there on that corner. You see some problem people in there. | 31:56 |
Paul Ortiz | So did you have a chance to talk to—Or you were filling their orders. | 32:31 |
Leon White | Yes. And I talked to them too. | 32:37 |
Paul Ortiz | What was Erskine Hawkins like? | 32:39 |
Leon White | He was very nice guy. In fact, his cousin and I were good friends. He had a—Doris Fagan. She's in Washington DC now. He was nice. Very nice. Yeah. | 32:40 |
Paul Ortiz | So they [indistinct 00:32:59]— | 32:54 |
Leon White | Yeah, they was Alabama State Collegians then. He was going to Alabama State. And then after then he decided to get a band of his own Erskine Hawkins. He left them and went. | 32:59 |
Paul Ortiz | What kinds of nightclubs other than the, you said musicians played at the Masonic—? | 33:12 |
Leon White | Yeah, that was where they played. You're right. | 33:18 |
Paul Ortiz | What other places around Birmingham would they play? | 33:22 |
Leon White | Well, at that time they didn't have any other place then to play. Unless they, well—No, back during the thirties. See, I'm giving you from the thirties. Back then, Uh-uh, there wasn't any other place that they could play then. Just come to whenever those came, they came to Masonic Temple. | 33:26 |
Paul Ortiz | How about the forties? Did that change? | 33:46 |
Leon White | Well, the forties, well let's see now. Back in the forties, they had some nightclubs here. Blacks started getting nightclub because what happened, the war was on. And then the still, it wasn't too much acting, but they opened up little nightclub and houses and things around here. | 33:49 |
Paul Ortiz | During World War II? | 34:10 |
Leon White | Yes. Now I wasn't here during that time. I had left in '36 and went to Detroit because my mother and I hadn't seen her in eight amount of years then. Because remember I told you she left me with my grandmother and I think about 11 years I hadn't seen her. | 34:13 |
Paul Ortiz | That must have been quite a change going from Birmingham to Detroit. | 34:28 |
Leon White | Well yes it was. At that time I really enjoyed Detroit then. Because you know what, they had a law up there, which was, it kind of hurt me too because I had been working here at that grocery store, but when I went to Detroit, I was just near 16 years old, and they had a law, a strict law there, that you could not work even during school hours if you wasn't going to school. They had a law up there that you could only work after 3:00 o'clock. Yeah. And then too, if you were going to school, you could only work I think about 8 or 12 hours a week if you were going to school. Yeah. They had a strict law there. Detroit then was a nice place then in '35 and '36. Yeah. | 34:33 |
Paul Ortiz | And you had dropped out of school when you were 15? | 35:20 |
Leon White | Right. | 35:29 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 35:32 |
Leon White | I took the full-time job because over at the grocery store and he paid me as much as he did to grown men because I know the business because he taught it to me. I make the inventory, I did everything. He signed the checks and I take the checks and write them to the company, Sam Spinner, and then all those places, the flower company to the flower company and all the bills ran here in the city. Even outside, the Booth Fisheries Company out of Chicago. Yeah, I did all that. I was trained, in hand training. | 35:32 |
Paul Ortiz | So you moved to Detroit in 1935. | 36:07 |
Leon White | Right? '36. | 36:09 |
Paul Ortiz | '36. And how long did you stay in Detroit? | 36:11 |
Leon White | I ended up in Detroit close to 31 years. But you couldn't tell that I lived in the Detroit because every weekend or every other weekend I come back to Birmingham, fly back or whatnot. And then I started—You know what I did for recreation then when I was 12 years old in '32? | 36:13 |
Paul Ortiz | In Birmingham? | 36:35 |
Leon White | Yeah. I started training to become a fighter and I used to fight up the Boutwell when it was city auditorium at the age of 12. And I was lucky I left here and went to Detroit and I started fighting there. And may they rest in peace, I was lucky enough to be in the ring with two great fighter. I trained with both of them, Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles. As a sparring partner for Joe Louis in 1939 when he fought Bob Talcy in Detroit in September '39. And then Ezzard Charles, I fought him in 1941. I lost the split decision to him. | 36:35 |
Paul Ortiz | 1941. | 37:16 |
Leon White | Yes. | 37:17 |
Paul Ortiz | You mentioned that the Boutwell City Auditorium, is that where you were training at? | 37:24 |
Leon White | No, no. I trained right down here in that building. | 37:28 |
Paul Ortiz | Which building? | 37:30 |
Leon White | That building where we was talking to you about 1601, that grocery store. All right. And I'm going to tell you something else about that grocery store. They were talking about integration. That was the first store that I've known in Birmingham, part of that store was rented out to two Black guys, which was Mr. Ford and Mr. Hurtt. The store was open on that side and on the 721 side, they had a barber shop in there. And the way that barber shop, the fell that I worked for, he didn't put them barbers out or nothing, but the Ku Klux Klan, which was the Grand Wizard, the Klu Klux Klan was up there on 12th Avenue and 16th Street, he kept sending them threatening letters of there to get out. And they closed it up. He got out. Yeah. 721. I never forget that. Mr. Ford and Mr. Hurt. | 37:33 |
Paul Ortiz | Do you remember other Black businesses in this area, other times and people who owned them? | 38:28 |
Leon White | Yes. Yeah. Well you had Mr. Mike. Let's see, Mr. Mac Hightower. He was on the corner, 9th Avenue and 16th Street North. He sold used furniture. All right. Then you had Lincoln Fagan, which was his address was 707 16th Street North. He sold watermelon, coal. See, we didn't have a gas and whatnot then. Watermelon, coal, wood, ice. We didn't have no Frigidaire like it is now. Lincoln Fagan. And then, let's see now, there's a bunch of them had Black businesses and things. You had Patton Cafe, which is right there. It just burned down recently. That building right there. | 38:35 |
Paul Ortiz | Oh, is that the building? | 39:34 |
Leon White | Yeah. They would burn down that lot there. It burned down. That building been there for ages. Yeah, Patton Cafe. | 39:35 |
Paul Ortiz | Were there any other businesses in that building? | 39:46 |
Leon White | Yeah. Let's see. Back during that time, what was the name? It was a hotel there too. And let's see, all of that was like—The hotel there. Alex's Steakhouse. That was Black. | 39:49 |
Paul Ortiz | Alex Steakhouse? | 40:04 |
Leon White | A-L-E-X, apostrophe, S, Steakhouse. All right. You had to see that little building that's sitting out there by itself, by that parking lot, that used to be Apex Cab Company. Apex. | 40:05 |
Paul Ortiz | Apex? | 40:24 |
Leon White | A-P-E-X Cab Company. | 40:24 |
Paul Ortiz | And that's on? | 40:29 |
Leon White | 4th Avenue. See, this is the 4th Avenue district out there. All right. Then you had Social Cleaners. | 40:31 |
Paul Ortiz | Social Cleaners? | 40:48 |
Leon White | Yeah. Social. S-O-C-I-A-L Cleaners. Yeah, there's a bunch of them. | 40:50 |
Paul Ortiz | And they were on 4th Avenue too? | 40:57 |
Leon White | No, no, it was on 16th Street. And they were on 16th Street between 6th and 7th Avenue. | 40:59 |
Paul Ortiz | This is really interesting because one of the things we're looking at is Black businesses and what Black businesses were. | 41:10 |
Leon White | Yeah. Do you know you had more Black ownership of businesses in Birmingham back during that time than you have now? See, they call Black businesses now because you get a loan, it ain't paid for. But I'm talking about owned it then, back during that time you had them. Because all up and down [indistinct 00:41:37] and all up and down 8th Avenue was Black-owned, Silver Moon and all of those places. | 41:18 |
Paul Ortiz | Silver Moon? | 41:42 |
Leon White | Yeah. Jones Barbecue. Is it Watt's Barbecue. Oh man. | 41:43 |
Paul Ortiz | Where was the Silver Moon at? | 41:53 |
Leon White | Huh? Silver Moon on 8th Avenue and pretty close—Let's see, 8th Avenue and 8th Street | 41:54 |
Paul Ortiz | And 8th? | 42:08 |
Leon White | Yeah. | 42:09 |
Paul Ortiz | And Jones Barbecue was in the same area? | 42:09 |
Leon White | 16th Street. 709 16 Street North. | 42:15 |
Paul Ortiz | And then you had, this is Watts Barbecue? | 42:37 |
Leon White | Yes. That was on the 17th Street, the corner of 9th Ave. | 42:40 |
Paul Ortiz | So it sounds like there was a very thriving Black business district. | 42:55 |
Leon White | Yeah. Because see that's the only places we had to go and we were together. That's the main thing. We were together. We didn't have too much, but we shared. That's the main thing. My grandmother sent me over there to borrow a cup of flour from Ms. Hester. And Ms. Hester would come over there and borrow a cup of sugar from her. It was all together. | 42:58 |
Leon White | When somebody got sick in that community around there, you know what my grandmother would say, "Hey—" Even not only her, other people would say, "Hey, Ms. Ellen is sick over there. I'm going over there. I'm going do the cooking. Tell my aunt you do the scrubbing in the house." And my job was to carry this slap jaw, which is for the bathroom. Because those houses down there, even though they were large, they didn't have the bathroom on the inside of the house like they are now. You have five or six houses out there and they have two outhouses out there. Yeah, out there in the back. Yeah. It was very interesting. | 43:20 |
Paul Ortiz | So most of the houses did not have—? | 43:50 |
Leon White | No. The Blacks then, during that time, no. Uh-huh, didn't have it. | 43:50 |
Paul Ortiz | If you had to just kind of think about the symbols of Jim Crow, what were the symbols of Jim Crow in Birmingham during those days? | 43:50 |
Leon White | Well, from the way I look at it myself, it was the law. Segregation and discriminatory practices during that time was the highest law. And the reason I say that, it could be one Black that was innocent. 10,000 Blacks could go up there and tell the judge he's innocent, but one White could say he did it. That was it. Because segregation and discriminatory practices during that time was the highest law. And that was the law. Yes, it was. If you break their law, whether it is right or wrong, you in trouble. | 44:27 |
Leon White | Because my brother got arrested right down the street down there for nothing. Well, a lady said he cussed out a white lady. He never did it. It was the other kids down there. He went in the house to use the bathroom and came back out and the lady had called the police. And all the other fellas had to run. He didn't know what happened. Nobody came but him. He was walking down the street there, waiting for the light to change. And the police pulled up there and the lady said, "That was him." And it just happened that I knew somebody it cost back during that time, I had a few dollars, $30 then to keep him from—He'd probably got 5 or 10 years in jail. | 45:12 |
Paul Ortiz | You were able to bail him out? | 45:50 |
Leon White | Yeah. Keep him from going to jail. $30. | 45:52 |
Paul Ortiz | Did you pay somebody $30? | 45:58 |
Leon White | I did. | 45:58 |
Paul Ortiz | Who did you pay? | 46:31 |
Leon White | What's the guy I think of, his name was Tim Gordon. Because what I had to do, even giving in that I had to go and get the kids that were over there doing that crazy. And I found most of them and they went up there and that's the only thing saved him. Yeah, it was rough, really rough. | 46:31 |
Paul Ortiz | Did Black people ever tried to push back against that system, against segregation during the thirties? | 46:32 |
Leon White | Collectively? No. | 46:43 |
Paul Ortiz | How about— | 46:43 |
Paul Ortiz | So Mr. White, you were saying that Black people didn't protest collectively, but there were some individuals who protested against segregation? | 0:04 |
Leon White | Yeah. | 0:13 |
Paul Ortiz | Well, what kinds of things would they do to protest? | 0:16 |
Leon White | Well, some of them, you had a guy, like I was saying, back in the day, Mr. Emory O. Jackson, he was the editor there for the Birmingham World. He protested against it, Emory O. Jackson in his news column. And then, you had some more fellows, let's see. Emory O. Jackson, he protested bitterly against it. That being said, during that time, other guys—See, by me being in that grocery store over there, then and there, during that time, I couldn't be around in the community, because my grandmother wouldn't let me go. She always kept me at home and whatnot, but there were some that did it. I know that. | 0:23 |
Paul Ortiz | When you were growing up, who were your heroes? Who were the people that you really looked up to? | 1:24 |
Leon White | My hero when I was growing up as a young kid? Well, my hero, in what category? Like what? I'll tell you my hero, my hero in sport. My hero then was Joe Louis, my hero then. And then, economically, the fellow I worked for, he was my hero because he was teaching me something, began something that would keep me going. And it really paid off for me because when I go to the city or whatnot, I never get in line to look for a job. What I do, I write, get an application, find out who is in charge, and then I fill out the application and I send it to the company and I send it to the company, to his attention. | 1:31 |
Leon White | The reason I do that is because if I get in that line, even he'll read it right then and there and say, "Okay, I'll call you," or whatnot. He may sit it on that desk, might throw it in the garbage can. But if I mark it on there to Mr. So and So, attention him, the company, whatnot, he may be busy, may take it home with him. He might sit up there and relax and be reading it, see, and then he'll pay attention to it. | 2:24 |
Leon White | And it has paid off for me, because do you know? I told you on there, I started working for him, eight years old. Do you know, throughout all my years, up until 1989 when I worked at Bruno's, I got hurt and I come down, I've never been unemployed, regardless of what, because I appreciate what that store did for me in there. You know why? It was something good to me because it led me, I guess, across my Red Sea, because it tells me something right then. As time went on, I learned. Regardless of what you go, you can go in automobile factory, I had a chance to go in there, a steel mill or whatnot. But in grocery business, people must eat. You know how, see? Yeah. | 2:51 |
Paul Ortiz | So you were working hard in the grocery business. What do you do when you have some spare time? | 3:42 |
Leon White | Spare time now? | 3:49 |
Paul Ortiz | No, when you were—In the 1930s, grocery business, after you left school, what did you do in your time off? Where did you go for fun? | 3:51 |
Leon White | For fun? Well, I'd go up to the wrestling match or something like that. Wrestling match or the movies. Because see, that's all we had here during that time. To the movies and the wrestling match. And at the wrestling match, you should see Boutwell, way up. Yeah. | 4:01 |
Paul Ortiz | Did Black and White people go to that together? | 4:17 |
Leon White | No, no. The White on down and we up. | 4:17 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 4:18 |
Leon White | Right. | 4:18 |
Paul Ortiz | That was [indistinct 00:04:19] | 4:18 |
Leon White | In the balcony. | 4:18 |
Paul Ortiz | So you left for Detroit in 1936? | 4:18 |
Leon White | Yeah, '36. | 4:18 |
Paul Ortiz | '36. And you lived in Detroit for about 31 years? | 4:18 |
Leon White | Yes. | 4:18 |
Paul Ortiz | Did you have much contact with people in Birmingham during those years when you lived in Detroit? | 4:18 |
Leon White | Yes. I had uncle here and then I had friends that I was born and raised with and then they passed and I don't got nobody left. My uncle passed so I'm here. | 5:09 |
Paul Ortiz | Did you see any changes? Did you hear about any changes that were happening in Birmingham, say, in the forties and fifties? [indistinct 00:05:28] in the Black community or race relations? Did it seem that things were changing? | 5:14 |
Leon White | Yeah. Yes. But you know what? It was changing, but they changing. It seemed as though we were gaining on one end, but we are losing on the other end. And myself, I don't pay no attention with changes as the people are today. They say integration or this and that, whatnot. Because see, and Colored and White or whatnot and that. I really believe what I'm speaking of, this is God's world. And I figure though like this, it will never change unless—It will never be—It always change until people looked at the fact from a might force of habit, might force of habit, groups. | 5:33 |
Leon White | Because I can clearly see the change in that. That's what make the change. And it seems as though that the Black, we as the race of people there. We just take one step forward and it looks good and then all of a sudden we lean back on our laurels, I guess. And then we fall right back down. Because I look at this thing and it is really simple. I tell you the truth about it. I look at it. All right, I keep up with the history because I'm trying to find out what it is, why it is, and what can be done about it. | 6:30 |
Leon White | I look at it and then I say to myself, I say, "Now my foreparents brought here as slaves. All right, got here as slaves. All right. We went from slave to nigger, from nigger to Negro. From Negro to Colored person, from Colored person, Super Fly. From Super Fly, soul brother. Now we talking about Afro-American, all them changes. Has there been anything changed in our economic structure? No. That's where it's at. I don't have to be a specialist or a genius in order to see that. I don't have to be a genius or specialist to succeed. The only thing that's going to be great for me in this world right here, capitalistic world, is green, which is that American dollar. | 7:07 |
Leon White | Because I've taken a chance and I went and I think for myself, and I look at this world and I think to this standpoint, the world is blessed more by little men who do things and not by big men who just merely talk about it. And that's what's been happening into the world in the last 20 or 25 years. Talking big, but little performance. That's what makes it. It really is. It doesn't make sense because if you, any race of people, whatever the color it is, if you are economically insecure, then you going down. That's what keeps it up. Economic, they secure it. | 8:01 |
Paul Ortiz | Mr. White, I have some family history information, some of which you've given me. I wonder if you would mind filling this out? | 8:51 |
Leon White | Well, my family history? | 9:07 |
Paul Ortiz | It's just things like your date of birth, place of birth. You've already told me you— | 9:09 |
Leon White | 7/1/20. | 9:14 |
Paul Ortiz | [indistinct 00:09:19]. | 9:14 |
Leon White | All right. | 9:14 |
Paul Ortiz | And did you ever marry? | 9:32 |
Leon White | I've been married three times and divorced. | 9:34 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. What was your first spouse's name? | 9:40 |
Leon White | Rosetta. | 9:43 |
Paul Ortiz | Rosetta. With two T? | 9:47 |
Leon White | Huh? | 9:52 |
Paul Ortiz | With two Ts? | 9:52 |
Leon White | R-O-S-E-T-T-A. Right. | 9:52 |
Paul Ortiz | And her middle name? And her middle and maiden name? | 9:56 |
Leon White | Ferguson. | 10:00 |
Paul Ortiz | Ferguson is the middle? | 10:02 |
Leon White | Yeah. Her maiden name. No middle. | 10:04 |
Paul Ortiz | Was she from Birmingham? | 10:14 |
Leon White | Huh? | 10:14 |
Paul Ortiz | Was she from Birmingham. | 10:14 |
Leon White | Ketona. | 10:21 |
Paul Ortiz | How do you spell that? | 10:21 |
Leon White | K-E-T-O-N-A. And I didn't know, she was from Alabama. I married her in Detroit. | 10:25 |
Paul Ortiz | Oh really? | 10:28 |
Leon White | About two years ago, before I knew she was from Alabama too. | 10:30 |
Paul Ortiz | What was her occupation? | 10:36 |
Leon White | She was a dietician. | 10:41 |
Paul Ortiz | Do you know about what time she was born and what date? | 10:47 |
Leon White | Let's see. Her birthday is in September 1928. | 10:50 |
Paul Ortiz | And going down here to your parents. Your mother's name, her first— | 11:02 |
Leon White | My mother, Lula Kimbrough. | 11:09 |
Paul Ortiz | Can you spell that last name? | 11:16 |
Leon White | K-I-M-B-R-O-U-G-H. | 11:16 |
Paul Ortiz | Kimbrough. And what was her maiden name? | 11:20 |
Leon White | Steele. S-T-E-E-L-E. | 11:24 |
Paul Ortiz | And when was she born? | 11:31 |
Leon White | My mother, let's see now, wait a minute now. Let's see. My mother, let's see, I was born in 1920. My mother was born in 1900. September the 25th. My mother's still living. | 11:33 |
Paul Ortiz | Oh she is? | 11:52 |
Leon White | Yeah. Lives in Detroit. She's 94 years old. Will be this year. | 11:53 |
Paul Ortiz | And where was she born? | 12:01 |
Leon White | Same as that [indistinct 00:12:03] out there in Dallas County. | 12:01 |
Paul Ortiz | What was her occupation? | 12:15 |
Leon White | My mother? At the time, well, housewife. | 12:17 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. How about your father's full name? | 12:31 |
Leon White | Joe White. Now see this, my mother's name now is her name where she married again now. That's her latest name. Her name was Lula White. And she's Kimbrough now. And her husband dead now. All right. Come on now. What [indistinct 00:12:56] | 12:34 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay, father's date of birth. | 12:56 |
Leon White | You know what? I can't actually tell you, but my father died in 1927 and they claim—I hear my aunt and them say my father was 32 years old at that time. | 12:59 |
Paul Ortiz | So about 1895? | 13:15 |
Leon White | Yeah, something like that. Right. 1895 and five is 1927 and five is 32. That's right. Okay. | 13:22 |
Paul Ortiz | And was he born in Dallas County also? | 13:31 |
Leon White | No, I was born here. | 13:35 |
Paul Ortiz | No, your father. | 13:36 |
Leon White | No. He was born in some part of Tennessee. Where, I don't know. | 13:38 |
Paul Ortiz | And he worked as a miner? | 13:41 |
Leon White | Miner. | 13:47 |
Paul Ortiz | And then what other kind of work did he do? | 13:48 |
Leon White | That's all I knew. He died. [indistinct 00:13:52] | 13:50 |
Paul Ortiz | Then this is about your sisters and brothers. Do you have— | 13:56 |
Leon White | I have a sister now from my mother's second marriage. I had one brother. He died in childbirth. And my sister, she's in critical condition. She's been living in Los Angeles, California. Gloria Stone. | 14:01 |
Paul Ortiz | And her place of birth and date? | 14:27 |
Leon White | Her place of birth and date was, let's see. March 2nd, 1931. | 14:27 |
Paul Ortiz | And your brother was born? | 14:46 |
Leon White | He was born in 1918. I don't know. He was born before I was. He's dead. He was born dead. | 14:50 |
Paul Ortiz | So you were the first one? | 15:02 |
Leon White | Yeah. | 15:02 |
Paul Ortiz | How about, do you have children? | 15:02 |
Leon White | Yes. | 15:02 |
Paul Ortiz | Can I have their names? | 15:02 |
Leon White | All right. Mary Carter, age 32. | 15:09 |
Paul Ortiz | So she was born in— | 15:24 |
Leon White | '62. All right now, I have— | 15:24 |
Paul Ortiz | In Detroit? | 15:24 |
Leon White | No, no. Here. | 15:24 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 15:24 |
Leon White | And I have Leon Carter Jr. Age 28. | 15:42 |
Paul Ortiz | [indistinct 00:15:59] | 15:53 |
Leon White | '65. | 15:59 |
Paul Ortiz | And he was born in Birmingham? | 16:04 |
Leon White | Uh-huh. Then I have Alisa Faye. Carter. Alisa, A-L-I-S-A. | 16:05 |
Paul Ortiz | What was the middle name? | 16:12 |
Leon White | Faye. F-A-Y-E. Carter. | 16:17 |
Paul Ortiz | She was born— | 16:23 |
Leon White | Let's see. She'll be 24 this year. And so she was born in 1970. | 16:25 |
Paul Ortiz | In Birmingham? | 16:34 |
Leon White | Birmingham. Yeah, that's them. | 16:38 |
Paul Ortiz | How about grandchildren? | 16:39 |
Leon White | No. | 16:41 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. Residential history for you, Birmingham. This information goes with the tape. | 16:49 |
Leon White | Yeah. | 17:04 |
Paul Ortiz | [indistinct 00:17:18] '37? | 17:22 |
Leon White | '36. And '60. | 17:35 |
Paul Ortiz | Then from Detroit— | 17:35 |
Leon White | To Birmingham. | 17:35 |
Paul Ortiz | And you gave me some of the names of your schools. Lincoln was your middle school? | 17:49 |
Leon White | Yeah. Lincoln. Let's see. The first one I went to was Slater. S-L-A-T-E-R. | 17:53 |
Paul Ortiz | Slater. And that was— | 17:59 |
Leon White | Lincoln, right. All these in Birmingham. | 18:03 |
Paul Ortiz | And when did you start Slater? | 18:04 |
Leon White | Slater? 1925. | 18:10 |
Paul Ortiz | To? | 18:11 |
Leon White | To 1930—Let's see, let's see. I graduated in January of 1934 to Parker. 1935, when I quit Parker, [indistinct 00:18:29] Industrial. | 18:12 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. Then your work history, you worked in this [indistinct 00:18:44] Cohen's. | 18:28 |
Leon White | Yeah. | 18:52 |
Paul Ortiz | As merchandise. | 18:52 |
Leon White | Yeah. | 18:52 |
Paul Ortiz | Stock. How many years have you worked there? | 19:02 |
Leon White | All right. I worked—Shoot, I've been working for that family, in fact, all of life. You know what, I'd even come down here during my vacation when I was working in the Detroit. Come down here and work down there. All right? This last time I worked for him, I came down here and worked for him in 1959. And he went out of business in 1964. That's five years. | 19:04 |
Paul Ortiz | What other kinds of work have you done since you've been down here? Your work history? | 19:37 |
Leon White | All right, work history. Right. I worked in Detroit in one grocery store up there, Warren Avenue Market for 14 years. Then I worked at [indistinct 00:19:51] Motor Car Company for three years. Then I worked at Great Lakes Steel for one year. I worked at Kroger's groceries there for one year. And I worked for Vickers Incorporated for eight years in Detroit. All these in Detroit now. Vickers Incorporated, the division of [indistinct 00:20:30] | 19:41 |
Leon White | Now you want my record of down here working? I worked at Bruno's for 20 year. Yeah, [indistinct 00:20:45] retired. You know what, I'll show you that, what I was saying about writing. I got hired at Bruno, I was 51 years old. I was surprised. I said, "I'm going to do this just for the fun." And I wrote—The same day he got the letter, I went out there, I got hired and I did 21 years. | 20:30 |
Paul Ortiz | Bruno's Groceries? | 21:02 |
Leon White | Yeah, Bruno's Grocery, Incorporated. | 21:03 |
Paul Ortiz | Then what year did you retire from there? | 21:07 |
Leon White | '89. | 21:10 |
Paul Ortiz | So you started working there in '69? | 21:19 |
Leon White | Yeah. | 21:19 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. And have you received any kinds of awards, honors, plaques, that kind of thing? | 21:32 |
Leon White | Well, I got some, but I never believed in them kind of thing. You know what I've always did? They wanted to give me one once before. I told them, I said, "Don't give it to me." I said, "Give it to the school [indistinct 00:21:55] when I went to. Because they the ones, she taught me to do this thing. That was their idea. I don't want any award." Because I got that up there when I retired from Bruno's, up there, that little old certificate of award over there for the time I worked out there on that end. Yeah. Because I tell them, "I don't want that. I'm just going by instruction. It was their idea. And they got it within the fabric of my mind. So they was the progenitor of it, not me. I just carry out the orders." | 21:41 |
Paul Ortiz | [indistinct 00:22:33] | 22:29 |
Leon White | Yeah. Yeah. I won quite a few medals and trophies when I was fighting in the drawing. I won the Golden Glove. I won the [indistinct 00:22:52] belt. The Army called me and I started—I didn't have a chance to—You see that picture over there where me and that guy standing? You know who that is? That's Charles Evers right at the bottom there. He and I and Medgar Evers was in the Army together. And Medgar's anniversary of his assassination was last Tuesday, June the 13th, 1963 when he was assassinated right there. That's me. And that's Charles Evers, Medgar Evers. That was in 1965, that picture there. Charles Evers. Yeah. | 22:32 |
Paul Ortiz | Who are these pictures? | 23:45 |
Leon White | That's my wife there. | 23:47 |
Paul Ortiz | That's Rosetta? | 23:49 |
Leon White | No, no, that's, that's Gladys. That was my second wife. And that's my daughter there. One with the old bushy hair up there like that. That's my son when he [indistinct 00:24:03] That's my daughter over there. Yeah. And that's my grandmother over there. She died in Detroit, 105 years old in 1960. And that was the letter that she wrote to me. She never went to school a day in her life. She died in 1960. She was 105 years old. | 23:51 |
Leon White | I can show you a lot of things. You see that bottle lying there? That was when Birmingham became wet. They voted in 1935. That's when it became wet. And that bottle, I been had it all that time from 1935, real 92 beer. And that whiskey bottle, that Grandad, this Jewish fella, what I told you I worked for, his grandson, Irvie. His mother and father got married and that little bottle there, one of their cousins gave me that bottle and I kept it all in years from 1935. That bottle, I've been—Woo, I can [indistinct 00:25:10] I got a lot of things I've had, ooh, way back. | 24:23 |
Paul Ortiz | How about your religious denomination? | 25:14 |
Leon White | Baptist. | 25:18 |
Paul Ortiz | And you've always went to Baptist churches? | 25:22 |
Leon White | Yeah. | 25:24 |
Paul Ortiz | What were the first couple of churches that you went to? You might have told me one. | 25:31 |
Leon White | Churches I went to? | 25:31 |
Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 25:32 |
Leon White | Macedonia was one. | 25:37 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 25:38 |
Leon White | No, the first one because my mother and my aunt was the one that they used to bring. It used to be a wooded church and they used to bring bricks to church every Saturday or there Tuesday something till they got enough bricks to build it. And guess what? I got one of the bricks out of that church because that church was built the year I was born. I got the brick up there in my—When they tore that church down, I got a brick up there in my cabinet now from that church. | 25:42 |
Paul Ortiz | Wow. | 26:13 |
Leon White | And that was way back from 1920 when it was built. | 26:13 |
Paul Ortiz | How about your hobbies, interests? | 26:23 |
Leon White | Well, right now, since I've retired and everything, what I do for a hobby and everything, I go out to the horse track every day. Just go out there, relax, don't go out there to bet or nothing. I call it entertainment. Just something to be doing. [indistinct 00:26:44] That's all. | 26:28 |
Paul Ortiz | And you're working on this project. | 26:44 |
Leon White | Right. | 26:44 |
Paul Ortiz | Historical— | 26:44 |
Leon White | Yeah. I like to—Got so when I got hurt, I couldn't write. So I've been trying to learn to type now. | 26:55 |
Leon White | Oh, you Duke University? They have good basketball team. Where is, what's his name? Laettner. Wasn't he with Duke? | 27:13 |
Paul Ortiz | Yeah, he was with Duke. For— | 27:22 |
Leon White | Yeah. He's pro now. | 27:25 |
Paul Ortiz | Yeah, he's— | 27:26 |
Leon White | You don't hear too much talk about him. But you'll hear from him pretty soon. He did go over the Olympics though, with the big team? | 27:27 |
Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 27:37 |
Leon White | Yeah. Duke University. Yeah. Yeah. Don't worry. I was coming over to see y'all. I could have caught you yesterday, but I had to go to the doctor yesterday. | 27:38 |
Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 27:47 |
Leon White | You were in the building. | 27:47 |
Paul Ortiz | Right. | 27:48 |
Leon White | Somebody told me. The lady down there told me. | 27:50 |
Item Info
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