C. C. Williams interview recording, 1995 June 22 / Behind the Veil / Duke Digital Repository

Mary Hebert

All I need to have you do is state your full name and tell me when and where you were born.

0:03

Cornelias C. Williams

Cornelius C. Williams. Born in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. September the first, 1925.

0:07

Mary Hebert

And how'd your family get to North Carolina from there?

0:17

Cornelias C. Williams

After I finished college, the first job offered was in South Carolina.

0:24

Mary Hebert

What did your parents do for a living?

0:34

Cornelias C. Williams

My mother was a school teacher. My father, he worked in the bakery.

0:37

Mary Hebert

And you said you went to college, so did they encourage you to pursue an education?

0:44

Cornelias C. Williams

My mother and father did, but my father died when I was five, yes. But my mother pursued and I went into service. And service, sent me to college.

0:49

Mary Hebert

So you went to college on the GI Bill?

1:04

Cornelias C. Williams

GI Bill, right.

1:07

Mary Hebert

Where did you serve in World War II?

1:09

Cornelias C. Williams

Mostly in the States.

1:13

Mary Hebert

What was boot camp like? The Army, it was segregated at that time. What was that like? How were you treated by officers, by other soldiers?

1:20

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, we all were together when I went in 1950.

1:32

Mary Hebert

Oh okay. So you went after. I thought you fought in World War II. I'm sorry. I'm way too young for that—Sorry.

1:38

Cornelias C. Williams

No, not too young.

1:44

Mary Hebert

So it was integrated by 1950?

1:46

Cornelias C. Williams

No, what I'm saying, I went in 1944.

1:51

Mary Hebert

Oh, okay.

1:52

Cornelias C. Williams

In the service.

1:53

Mary Hebert

Right.

1:55

Cornelias C. Williams

But I came here in 1953.

1:56

Mary Hebert

Okay. I was asking about the service and how you were treated by—

1:58

Cornelias C. Williams

Everything was good in service.

2:01

Mary Hebert

White officers didn't treat you like second class citizens and things like that?

2:03

Cornelias C. Williams

Some of them did. Yes, some of them did. Some of them did.

2:08

Mary Hebert

And where'd you go to college?

2:13

Cornelias C. Williams

Fayetteville State University and South Carolina State.

2:15

Mary Hebert

And where's Fayetteville State at?

2:21

Cornelias C. Williams

Fayetteville, North Carolina.

2:26

Mary Hebert

I'm sorry. There you go. When did you marry? Did you marry while you were in the service or—

2:28

Cornelias C. Williams

I married in 1953.

2:38

Mary Hebert

1953 or 50. What year did you say?

2:39

Cornelias C. Williams

'53.

2:45

Mary Hebert

'53. Did you marry someone from South Carolina?

2:47

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes. Saluda, South Carolina.

2:49

Mary Hebert

So you came to Summerton in 1953, or South Carolina?

2:50

Cornelias C. Williams

I came to Summerton in 1953.

3:03

Mary Hebert

Why'd you decide to come here?

3:06

Cornelias C. Williams

I had a job offer for me and my wife in Summerton.

3:10

Mary Hebert

Is she a school teacher also?

3:13

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

3:14

Mary Hebert

And you were teaching at Scott's Branch?

3:16

Cornelias C. Williams

Right. Scott's Branch Elementary.

3:18

Mary Hebert

Elementary?

3:20

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

3:21

Mary Hebert

And what did you teach?

3:22

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, I was teaching Math, English, and Social Studies.

3:24

Mary Hebert

Now, all of this was right around the time of Brown decision [indistinct 00:03:38] What were conditions like for African Americans in Summerton during that time?

3:34

Cornelias C. Williams

It wasn't too good. We worked hard, but we didn't get benefit of what we did.

3:45

Mary Hebert

What was it like for you coming from the north down to South Carolina? Was it a lot different here?

4:02

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, it was quite a bit of difference.

4:09

Mary Hebert

How did you adjust to that?

4:11

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, I moved south when I was five years old, after my father died. Then I came to North Carolina, which is a southern state too. But North Carolina, I went to school there in North Carolina, finished elementary and high school. And after that, I went to college.

4:15

Mary Hebert

Were conditions of segregation in South Carolina more—

4:40

Cornelias C. Williams

More prevalent, yeah, in South Carolina and North Carolina, yes.

4:44

Mary Hebert

Did the Citizens Council try to restrict your freedom of movement or try to prevent the desegregation of the schools here?

4:53

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

5:06

Mary Hebert

Do you remember any of the people who were involved in the Citizens Council?

5:08

Cornelias C. Williams

Offhand I just can't remember those offhand.

5:14

Mary Hebert

Did you always live here when you moved here?

5:20

Cornelias C. Williams

No, I boarded here before I built.

5:23

Mary Hebert

Who'd you board with?

5:28

Cornelias C. Williams

Mary Wells, one of my teachers after I became principal.

5:30

Mary Hebert

And then y'all built this house?

5:35

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

5:35

Mary Hebert

Did you ever belong to the NAACP here in Summerton?

5:43

Cornelias C. Williams

Still is a member. Yes.

5:46

Mary Hebert

Were you a member in the fifties?

5:52

Cornelias C. Williams

No, I was not.

5:52

Mary Hebert

Would that have prevented you from getting a job at the high school or at the school if you were [indistinct 00:06:02]

5:57

Cornelias C. Williams

I believe it would because most of the people couldn't get a job during that time.

6:01

Mary Hebert

How much money did you earn when you first came down here? Do you remember how much you made?

6:09

Cornelias C. Williams

$7,000, that's what I began with. $7,000. As a teacher. Then in 1957, I became principal.

6:16

Mary Hebert

Of the high school?

6:28

Cornelias C. Williams

Of the elementary school.

6:29

Mary Hebert

Elementary school. When did you become principal of the high school?

6:29

Cornelias C. Williams

Never was.

6:32

Mary Hebert

Oh, I thought you were principal of the high school.

6:34

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

6:36

Mary Hebert

I think Alice confused me somewhere.

6:38

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, Alice, I taught Alice in elementary school all the way through eighth grade. K through eight.

6:38

Mary Hebert

Oh, okay. Well, where's the elementary school located?

6:49

Cornelias C. Williams

Is it was all combined in one, but it was a wood frame building at the time when I was principal.

6:49

Mary Hebert

And is it combined?

6:56

Cornelias C. Williams

They tore it down.

7:00

Mary Hebert

Okay. So it wasn't the building where the high school is, the old high school.

7:01

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes. It was built right. adjoined into the brick building, but it was a white frame building.

7:04

Mary Hebert

And it was torn down?

7:10

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

7:10

Mary Hebert

How many teachers were there at the elementary school?

7:14

Cornelias C. Williams

I had 17.

7:21

Mary Hebert

And they were all Black?

7:24

Cornelias C. Williams

All Black.

7:26

Mary Hebert

And that was even after?

7:27

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

7:28

Mary Hebert

Did any White students at all ever attend?

7:31

Cornelias C. Williams

Never.

7:34

Mary Hebert

So even after the Brown decision, nothing changed?

7:35

Cornelias C. Williams

Not in the elementary, but one student came after the Brown decision in the high school. We only had one.

7:39

Mary Hebert

Do you remember the Citizens Council putting up signs in the windows of local businesses here saying, Remember the Citizens Council?

7:50

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, I remember that.

7:57

Mary Hebert

Did you patronize those businesses?

7:59

Cornelias C. Williams

No, I didn't.

8:02

Mary Hebert

Where did you shop?

8:03

Cornelias C. Williams

I went to Sumter and Manning.

8:05

Mary Hebert

So you didn't shop here?

8:07

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

8:08

Mary Hebert

What about entertainment here? Was there anything to do in Summerton for fun?

8:12

Cornelias C. Williams

Nothing.

8:17

Mary Hebert

Nothing. You had to go to Sumter or Manning?

8:18

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

8:18

Mary Hebert

Was there a movie theater here when you came?

8:21

Cornelias C. Williams

It was, but it was the Whites downstairs and the Blacks upstairs.

8:24

Mary Hebert

So you didn't attend there either?

8:31

Cornelias C. Williams

I went two or three times, but I didn't enjoy being segregated upstairs, so I didn't go back.

8:33

Mary Hebert

I heard that they made the benches really hard and uncomfortable.

8:42

Cornelias C. Williams

I agree 100%.

8:47

Mary Hebert

Was it your first teaching job down here?

8:52

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

8:54

Mary Hebert

Or taught?

8:54

Cornelias C. Williams

My first teaching job was in Trenton, South Carolina.

8:57

Mary Hebert

Did a lot of the students from the outlying area come into Scott's Branch Elementary like from Pinewood or St. Philip in those areas, or was it mostly people?

9:07

Cornelias C. Williams

They came in from those areas.

9:19

Mary Hebert

Were they bus in? Not initially, right?

9:25

Cornelias C. Williams

Not initially.

9:32

Mary Hebert

Did you and your wife belong to a church here?

9:32

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

9:33

Mary Hebert

Which church?

9:33

Cornelias C. Williams

Taw Caw Baptist Church.

9:36

Mary Hebert

Do you still attend there?

9:40

Cornelias C. Williams

Very much so.

9:42

Speaker 1

We're going there this weekend.

9:43

Cornelias C. Williams

I have a lot of positions in that church.

9:46

Mary Hebert

Are you a deacon or were you a deacon?

9:51

Cornelias C. Williams

Trustee, chairman of the finance committee, superintendent of the Sunday school.

9:54

Mary Hebert

What was traveling like in the south in the fifties? If you went somewhere by car, where would you stop to eat?

10:12

Cornelias C. Williams

Wasn't any place to stop unless you stopped at one of those restaurants and you was fed on the outside by window. You couldn't go in.

10:24

Mary Hebert

What about to get gasoline? Did you have problems with that?

10:34

Cornelias C. Williams

No, I didn't. Not too much with gasoline.

10:39

Mary Hebert

What about if you had to sleep over? Did you ever go on a trip that required you to spend the night somewhere or did you try to make your trips last just a day?

10:42

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, if I did, I slept in the car.

10:53

Mary Hebert

[indistinct 00:10:58]

10:55

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

10:58

Mary Hebert

Did you feel like a second class citizen than having to do those kinds of things?

11:02

Cornelias C. Williams

Definitely.

11:05

Mary Hebert

What were some of the signs of Jim Crow here in South Carolina in Summerton? Did they have the water fountain signs?

11:10

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes. Listed, Colored and White.

11:17

Mary Hebert

What about restrooms? Did they have the—

11:22

Cornelias C. Williams

Same difference. Colored and White. Doctor's office, you had a Colored waiting room and a White waiting room.

11:25

Mary Hebert

So that they were just as prevalent here as they were anywhere else?

11:34

Cornelias C. Williams

Definitely, yes.

11:37

Mary Hebert

How did you give your students a sense of self worth because they had to deal with this every day? And did you try to—

11:41

Cornelias C. Williams

I tried to explain to them what was going on, and one day they would probably understand.

11:50

Mary Hebert

That was important to you, to build up their self-esteem?

11:58

Cornelias C. Williams

Definitely, yes.

12:03

Mary Hebert

What about during the sixties during the Civil Rights movement, did that impact your students and did it make them question what was going on here in Summerton?

12:05

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes. When a few students moved to the White school.

12:14

Mary Hebert

So they sent some students over to [indistinct 00:12:20]

12:16

Cornelias C. Williams

They did. About five students moved over to the Summerton High White School.

12:20

Mary Hebert

I think Mrs. Rella Parker—

12:28

Cornelias C. Williams

Right. She was one.

12:31

Mary Hebert

I didn't know.

12:35

Cornelias C. Williams

Adela Tender was another one. Harry Briggs, which is the—

12:35

Mary Hebert

Junior

12:45

Cornelias C. Williams

Harry Briggs, Junior, yes. And Rita McDonald, Charles Hilton.

12:45

Mary Hebert

Did you encourage them to do that or did you support their movement over?

13:01

Cornelias C. Williams

I supported their movement over.

13:06

Mary Hebert

Was there any fear that if the schools were integrated, at least among teachers, that your school would be closed or they would lose their jobs?

13:10

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

13:18

Mary Hebert

Did that happen? Did they lose jobs?

13:18

Cornelias C. Williams

A lot of them did, especially if they signed the petition. And a lot of them signed that petition and they lost their jobs. Lost their jobs, and they had to move away. The Richburgs did that also.

13:23

Mary Hebert

Mrs. Richburg or?

13:43

Cornelias C. Williams

Both.

13:46

Mary Hebert

The both moved?

13:47

Cornelias C. Williams

They both moved to Baltimore after this because they were on the petition.

13:48

Mary Hebert

Did you lose some of your best teachers because of that?

13:57

Cornelias C. Williams

No, because, really, we were getting teachers that really, some of them really wasn't qualified as such because they had C certificates.

14:02

Mary Hebert

Oh, and what was the C certificate?

14:18

Cornelias C. Williams

What was it?

14:23

Mary Hebert

Yeah.

14:26

Mary Hebert

I'm not from South Carolina. I'm from Louisiana and we have T certificates, which are like temporary. What's a C certificate?

14:26

Cornelias C. Williams

That's one of the lowest ranked certificates. You have A, B, and C.

14:33

Mary Hebert

And C was like someone who didn't have a college education?

14:37

Cornelias C. Williams

They had a college education, but they did not pass the National Teacher Examination, which is the NTE.

14:40

Mary Hebert

And so some of those were—

14:51

Cornelias C. Williams

Quite, a few of those were.

14:52

Mary Hebert

Where did most of your teachers go to college? Were they from this area?

14:56

Cornelias C. Williams

Quite a number went to Morris College in Sumter. Quite a number.

15:04

Mary Hebert

Did you know Reverend Delay?

15:11

Cornelias C. Williams

I did not know him.

15:13

Mary Hebert

He had left by the time you—

15:15

Cornelias C. Williams

Right, right.

15:16

Mary Hebert

I don't know if you were here at this time, but everyone tells me that there used to be a horn that would sound late at night around in the evening. That signaled it was time for everyone to be off the streets. Did they still do that when you moved here?

15:21

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, sure did.

15:36

Mary Hebert

And how would they get people off the streets? Do people just scatter?

15:39

Cornelias C. Williams

Dispersed when they heard the horn.

15:43

Mary Hebert

Had you experienced that anywhere else?

15:52

Cornelias C. Williams

No, never.

15:54

Mary Hebert

Just hearing [indistinct 00:15:55]

15:55

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

15:55

Mary Hebert

When did it stop?

15:55

Cornelias C. Williams

It must have been in about '64 or five.

15:58

Mary Hebert

So it was during the Civil Rights movement?

16:03

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

16:04

Mary Hebert

Now, could you vote when you first moved down here, could you register to vote?

16:07

Cornelias C. Williams

I believe I could, yes. I think. Yes, we could.

16:16

Mary Hebert

And so you had to pass some kind of literacy test to register?

16:21

Cornelias C. Williams

When I came, I had my certificate. That's what it was.

16:26

Mary Hebert

So you didn't have to pass a test to vote?

16:29

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

16:31

Mary Hebert

Where would people gather in Summerton on the weekends? Did you ever go out on the streets and see where they were or drive around and see where they gathered?

16:34

Cornelias C. Williams

Most was at churches. That was the most place they gathered.

16:44

Mary Hebert

Now at Taw Caw Baptist, did you have regular revivals and tent meetings and things like that?

16:49

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

16:57

Mary Hebert

What about Sunday picnics or special occasions like that? Did you ever have—

16:59

Cornelias C. Williams

Not too much of that. Not too much of that.

17:05

Mary Hebert

What was the difference between the education that the children got here in Summerton and your elementary education or your high school education? Was it not as good or better or just—

17:19

Cornelias C. Williams

I would say it was not as good.

17:28

Mary Hebert

Was that because some of the teachers weren't as well educated? What about the textbooks?

17:38

Cornelias C. Williams

Most of them were out of date.

17:46

Mary Hebert

How far?

17:48

Cornelias C. Williams

Way, way back. A lot of them was out date.

17:50

Mary Hebert

I'm from Louisiana and I've been interviewing people. The segregated schools were like theirs. Some of them told me they didn't have evolution in them. They were really that far out date. So they were—

17:55

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

18:07

Mary Hebert

Did you get lab equipment?

18:07

Cornelias C. Williams

Very little. A little, very little.

18:10

Mary Hebert

Overhead projectors, those things just—

18:14

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, it finally came, but when I first came, it wasn't here, but it finally came on the scene.

18:17

Mary Hebert

How was the school board to work with, if you requested something like that, did they deny you outright or—

18:29

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, most of them were Black board members.

18:39

Mary Hebert

So how did that work? Did you have two school boards in Clarendon County?

18:44

Cornelias C. Williams

No, no. We didn't have any Whites on the board. Only was Black board members. They did the hiring and the firing of the teachers.

18:50

Mary Hebert

Now, this was after the 1950s?

19:01

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

19:03

Mary Hebert

So in the fifties, they were all White board members?

19:04

Cornelias C. Williams

Must have been? Yes.

19:06

Mary Hebert

How did your students respond to the death of Martin Luther King?

19:23

Cornelias C. Williams

Oh, they were all seriously hurt from that impact. And also the Kennedys, because the Kennedys really were for the Black people.

19:27

Mary Hebert

How did the people in the town respond to the death, say the assassination of Kennedy, the White people? Were they happy?

19:43

Cornelias C. Williams

I believe they were. I believe they were because they felt as Kennedy were helping the Black, and they didn't want that.

19:49

Mary Hebert

And what about when King was shot? Were there any attempts to prevent mourning here? I know in Louisiana they attempted to lower the flag, pull the flag to half mast. Did African-Americans here attempt to do anything like that?

20:02

Cornelias C. Williams

No. No.

20:20

Mary Hebert

What about at the school?

20:22

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

20:22

Mary Hebert

No.

20:22

Cornelias C. Williams

That's another good soldier gone.

20:28

Mary Hebert

Did you have any kind of program at the school?

20:32

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, we did.

20:35

Mary Hebert

And did you teach African American history at school?

20:37

Cornelias C. Williams

We did to a certain extent. I hired a teacher from Sumter and he was really informed about the American Black, African-American. And he really taught it. But I don't think the Whites liked that.

20:40

Mary Hebert

Did they ever try to tell you what kind of curriculum to follow, like not to have African American history?

21:05

Cornelias C. Williams

No, they didn't tell us that.

21:10

Mary Hebert

What about American government courses in the fifties? Did they try to regulate how say Civics was taught and how the Constitution was taught?

21:13

Cornelias C. Williams

No. I guess you did that on your own discretion.

21:26

Mary Hebert

And did your teachers teach those kinds of things?

21:33

Cornelias C. Williams

They did.

21:35

Mary Hebert

Was the school year in the fifties still set up around the cotton and harvesting cotton?

21:47

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, it was.

21:51

Mary Hebert

When did that change?

21:55

Cornelias C. Williams

When the cotton pickers came into existence. Before that time, they was dependent on the Blacks to harvest the crops. But after the cotton pickers came on the scene, the Blacks lost the jobs as such as for picking cotton.

21:55

Mary Hebert

And so the school year changed at that point? Did the school year change, did you start meeting—

22:14

Cornelias C. Williams

In other words, you had better attendance, because while they were out picking cotton, you didn't have too many students because they had a certain season of the year that so many students would have to be out to pick cotton.

22:21

Mary Hebert

Could you do anything to enforce attendance?

22:39

Cornelias C. Williams

No. No.

22:40

Mary Hebert

What happened when all those students came back? Did you go back and go over what you had taught earlier, did you try to—

22:45

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, I informed my teachers to do so.

22:58

Mary Hebert

So that those children could get the same education?

22:58

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

23:00

Mary Hebert

Well, how many students did attend during the cotton picking season? Was it mostly students who lived in town and whose families—

23:01

Cornelias C. Williams

Right. I would think so.

23:09

Mary Hebert

Do you remember any kinds of controversies in Summerton other than the school desegregation suit involving race relations or anything like that?

23:19

Cornelias C. Williams

No, I don't.

23:39

Mary Hebert

That was the big one?

23:39

Cornelias C. Williams

That was the big issue there.

23:39

Mary Hebert

Were you still living here when they forced the Briggs' out? When were you here when they forced Harry Briggs to move?

23:39

Cornelias C. Williams

I wasn't here. I came after that.

23:45

Mary Hebert

But your son did get to attend the high school?

23:48

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

23:56

Mary Hebert

Are there any voluntary associations or clubs here in Summerton, the African-American joined?

23:56

Cornelias C. Williams

Not that I know of. Only NAACP meetings, we meet quite often with that.

24:04

Mary Hebert

Where do y'all meet?

24:11

Cornelias C. Williams

Churches, different churches in the community.

24:12

Mary Hebert

Well, I spoke to a Jerome McCray, who's president now. I didn't think to ask him where at. How often do you meet?

24:17

Cornelias C. Williams

Every month on the third Sunday of every month.

24:25

Mary Hebert

Okay. And which church it's going to be held in and do they tell—

24:39

Cornelias C. Williams

They will inform you, which would be announcements.

24:43

Mary Hebert

Who belongs to the NAACP? Is it mostly professional people?

24:50

Cornelias C. Williams

No. No, not necessarily.

24:56

Mary Hebert

Farmers and people—

24:57

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

24:58

Mary Hebert

In the outlying areas.

24:58

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, we do.

24:59

Mary Hebert

Did you teach students how to behave in public, how to behave around White people in the fifties? Were they taught that there were certain things that they could do and not do to keep safe and not to be harmed? Or was that something that the parents taught?

25:13

Cornelias C. Williams

The parents taught that.

25:30

Mary Hebert

Did you teach them any kind of resistance? How to resist segregation? Did you talk about the NAACP to them?

25:33

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, at that age, they wouldn't have known too much about that.

25:46

Mary Hebert

So there wasn't anything taught in the—

25:52

Cornelias C. Williams

But they knew that they were somewhat different from the White because the White had something that they didn't have.

25:54

Mary Hebert

The schools were that different, there was that much disparity between the schools?

26:09

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

26:13

Mary Hebert

Was the White school a brick school with indoor plumbing and that kind of stuff?

26:13

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

26:22

Mary Hebert

Did the Scott's Branch Elementary have that kind of stuff?

26:22

Cornelias C. Williams

We did, but it was a wood frame building.

26:25

Mary Hebert

And when they built the new school, everyone said it didn't have a gymnasium on it at first. That really bother a lot of people, didn't it?

26:30

Cornelias C. Williams

The new school, it did not. Right.

26:37

Mary Hebert

Did y'all have any kind of team sports for the younger kids? Was there little league baseball and that kind of stuff around?

26:43

Cornelias C. Williams

Not too many little league, but we had football was the main sport.

26:50

Mary Hebert

And did they play other teams?

26:56

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, but that was in the sixties, over to the Summerton Middle School.

26:58

Mary Hebert

And when did that, that opened later on, the middle school?

27:07

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

27:12

Mary Hebert

Were most of your teachers women?

27:17

Cornelias C. Williams

No. No, no, no.

27:17

Mary Hebert

It was men and women?

27:17

Cornelias C. Williams

Men and women.

27:17

Mary Hebert

Did y'all all live in the same general area of Summerton?

27:25

Cornelias C. Williams

No. Some commuted from Sumter. Most of them were around here.

27:29

Mary Hebert

And you mentioned before that you boarded when you moved here?

27:35

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

27:37

Mary Hebert

At first. Did other teachers board with her also?

27:38

Cornelias C. Williams

We had eight teachers boarding with her.

27:40

Mary Hebert

So she had a big house?

27:43

Cornelias C. Williams

She had a big house.

27:45

Mary Hebert

And what was that like? Did she provide breakfast or lunch?

27:46

Cornelias C. Williams

No, everyone was responsible for their own.

27:50

Mary Hebert

Oh, okay.

27:51

Cornelias C. Williams

She only furnished the rooms.

27:56

Mary Hebert

And she worked at your school?

28:00

Cornelias C. Williams

She was one of my teachers.

28:00

Mary Hebert

Now, when did the school board become an all Black board? Was that recently? In the sixties or seventies?

28:06

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

28:14

Mary Hebert

And did conditions improve then?

28:14

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, under the circumstances, things was a little better.

28:21

Mary Hebert

I guess the tax base here is pretty poor anyway.

28:28

Cornelias C. Williams

It is.

28:30

Mary Hebert

It was hard to raise money for the school.

28:32

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

28:34

Mary Hebert

Were parents involved in their children's education?

28:37

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, they were.

28:40

Mary Hebert

What kinds of things would they do?

28:42

Cornelias C. Williams

I had a lot of volunteers come in my school help with the discipline mostly.

28:45

Mary Hebert

And what do you mean by that? Would they walk the halls or—

28:54

Cornelias C. Williams

Be in the classroom and help with the disciplinary problem that existed.

28:57

Mary Hebert

So they were helpers to the teacher?

29:05

Cornelias C. Williams

Something like an aide.

29:08

Mary Hebert

And they volunteered their time?

29:10

Cornelias C. Williams

Not too many. Once in a while you'd find one or two would come in, but we insisted that they come in, but they did not come in.

29:12

Mary Hebert

Any other types of things? Would they volunteer in any other kinds, cake sales, bake sales, those kind of things?

29:23

Speaker 1

No.

29:33

Mary Hebert

Did you ever have fundraisers for the school to improve conditions there, to paint it or—

29:35

Cornelias C. Williams

Frankly, no.

29:41

Mary Hebert

Did the school board provide money for painting and classrooms—

29:43

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, so much money was allocated from the state for that.

29:49

Mary Hebert

So it wasn't local?

29:53

Cornelias C. Williams

No, the state.

29:54

Mary Hebert

When did they close Summerton High School?

29:59

Cornelias C. Williams

1987, I think. Something like that.

30:06

Mary Hebert

So yet Scott's Branch High School and Summerton High School—

30:09

Cornelias C. Williams

Summerton Middle.

30:12

Mary Hebert

Middle. Okay. So it wasn't a high school yet?

30:14

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

30:16

Mary Hebert

Okay, because I've been trying to get this timeline down and what school was open then. But when Summerton High School was integrated, the White students left. Is that how it worked?

30:17

Cornelias C. Williams

Most of them, we only had one to come in.

30:26

Mary Hebert

And it became Clarendon Hall, they went to Clarendon Hall?

30:31

Cornelias C. Williams

Most of them did.

30:33

Mary Hebert

Okay.

30:34

Cornelias C. Williams

And are still there.

30:38

Mary Hebert

And are still there.

30:43

Mary Hebert

What made you want to become a school teacher?

30:43

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, that was my ambition from a child to become a teacher and a principal. And I achieved both.

30:47

Mary Hebert

Was your mother's influence important in that?

31:00

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes. My father wanted me to be a doctor, but he died and my mother pursued for us to continue our education. And after we were drafted in the service, that's where we all came.

31:02

Mary Hebert

So the GI Bill was what allowed you to go to college?

31:26

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

31:28

Mary Hebert

Would you have gone otherwise, do you think?

31:30

Cornelias C. Williams

I would've gone on a work program, I believe.

31:32

Mary Hebert

Did you have to work as a child to bring extra money into your home?

31:36

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

31:41

Mary Hebert

And what kinds of jobs did you do?

31:42

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, when I came to North Carolina, we had to pick cotton, crop tobacco, things of that nature.

31:45

Mary Hebert

Who did y'all live with in South Carolina? Did your mother rent land or—

31:53

Cornelias C. Williams

No, this was in North Carolina.

31:58

Mary Hebert

Oh, okay. In North Carolina, that's what I meant. Who did y'all live with? Did y'all go and live with family?

32:03

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, it was my grandmother's land that we was working, living.

32:05

Mary Hebert

She owned her own land?

32:09

Cornelias C. Williams

In North Carolina, she did. Yes.

32:12

Mary Hebert

And she owned it herself. Your grandfather passed it on to her when he died, or was it her land?

32:15

Cornelias C. Williams

It was an inheritance.

32:26

Mary Hebert

And so y'all picked cotton and worked on her farm?

32:30

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

32:32

Mary Hebert

Was that unusual for a woman to own her own land?

32:32

Cornelias C. Williams

Not in North Carolina.

32:39

Mary Hebert

Not in North Carolina. Did you have any other kinds of jobs?

32:40

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

32:47

Mary Hebert

So you just helped out on the farm?

32:48

Cornelias C. Williams

That's all.

32:49

Mary Hebert

Did they pay you for that work or it was just—

32:51

Cornelias C. Williams

Well, after we finished our crop, then we were hired out on the other people's farms.

32:54

Mary Hebert

And your mother taught school in North Carolina also?

33:01

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

33:04

Mary Hebert

And did you attend the Baptist churches while you were back in North Carolina?

33:09

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes. Right.

33:11

Mary Hebert

What was the school here like in North Carolina when you were going to elementary, high school. Did that revolve around the cotton crop also?

33:19

Cornelias C. Williams

In North Carolina? Yes.

33:28

Mary Hebert

So you had to work in the field until all the crops were picked and then school?

33:32

Cornelias C. Williams

No, it was a little different there than it was in South Carolina.

33:37

Mary Hebert

How did it work there in North Carolina?

33:39

Cornelias C. Williams

You worked when you came back from school. Okay.

33:44

Mary Hebert

So your mother sent you off to school every day?

33:48

Cornelias C. Williams

Right, because she wanted us to get an education.

33:49

Mary Hebert

Did you have to walk to school?

33:54

Cornelias C. Williams

I walked five miles in elementary one way.

33:56

Mary Hebert

Oh goodness. Okay. You didn't do any chores before you left in the morning, I take it.

34:01

Cornelias C. Williams

No, no.

34:04

Mary Hebert

And five miles back?

34:06

Cornelias C. Williams

Five miles back in the afternoon. And then when we got there, we had to make fires in the heaters.

34:06

Mary Hebert

Did you walk with a group of children?

34:16

Cornelias C. Williams

Group of children.

34:17

Mary Hebert

So everyone who lived around you walked?

34:20

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

34:22

Mary Hebert

What about when you went to middle school or high schools?

34:25

Cornelias C. Williams

We were bused bus.

34:29

Mary Hebert

So they had the buses. We had the bus a long time before South Carolina. Long time.

34:32

Mary Hebert

But you did go to segregated schools in—

34:38

Cornelias C. Williams

In North Carolina? Yes, we did.

34:40

Mary Hebert

Who lived around you? Did you have other relatives living in your neighborhood in North Carolina?

34:45

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

34:49

Mary Hebert

So aunts and uncles?

34:51

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

34:52

Mary Hebert

Did they live in the house with your grandmother also?

34:53

Cornelias C. Williams

No, they were living on their own property, which was inherited.

34:56

Mary Hebert

Did you have any kind of family gatherings?

35:05

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, quite often.

35:07

Mary Hebert

So you'll go over to grandmother's for Sunday dinner and things like that?

35:09

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes. Or go to the church and have big picnics and things of that nature.

35:13

Mary Hebert

And that the whole family would go?

35:17

Cornelias C. Williams

The whole family.

35:18

Mary Hebert

What did y'all do during the lay by time between planning and picking the crops? Did y'all do anything special?

35:22

Cornelias C. Williams

Nothing special.

35:33

Mary Hebert

Just rested?

35:34

Cornelias C. Williams

Yeah.

35:38

Mary Hebert

Did y'all have a garden or anything like that?

35:40

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, we did.

35:40

Mary Hebert

And did you sell any of the produce?

35:41

Cornelias C. Williams

No, most of it for house use only. We had hogs and chickens and really we didn't have to buy too much groceries from the stores, we raised our own.

35:43

Mary Hebert

How did the depression impact your family?

35:59

Cornelias C. Williams

Very much. Very much.

35:59

Mary Hebert

Was your grandmother able to hold onto her land?

36:02

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

36:04

Mary Hebert

Did y'all have to rely on the federal government for some food supplements and things like that?

36:07

Cornelias C. Williams

A lot of times we did.

36:13

Mary Hebert

So your mother would go and—

36:16

Cornelias C. Williams

Actually, my mother was working at the school at that time cooking.

36:17

Mary Hebert

So she cooked also?

36:23

Cornelias C. Williams

She cooked also, after she came out as a teacher. When we went to school, she was cook at the school that I attended in elementary school.

36:23

Mary Hebert

So she wasn't teaching at that point or she was doing both?

36:38

Cornelias C. Williams

She wasn't teaching at that point.

36:43

Mary Hebert

Did she go back to teaching after that?

36:45

Cornelias C. Williams

No, because during that time, the teachers weren't making any money. My mother worked for a lot of us things that they raised on the farm. They would give them certain things that they raised on the farm.

36:48

Mary Hebert

So they would pay teachers with chickens or eggs?

37:10

Cornelias C. Williams

Yeah. Yeah.

37:10

Mary Hebert

The parents would or the school board would pay them? Who would pay them with the chickens and the eggs and the beans or whatever? Was it the parents who were paying them? Paying the teachers?

37:11

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, with the parents.

37:23

Mary Hebert

So your mom was a cook at that point? During the depression, she cooked?

37:27

Cornelias C. Williams

Right. That was in '32. '29 through '32.

37:31

Mary Hebert

Did she earn more money doing that?

37:41

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

37:43

Mary Hebert

No. You said it was really hard. How was it hard for you all?

37:50

Cornelias C. Williams

A lot of times we really didn't know where we was going to get our next meal.

37:55

Mary Hebert

Even with the garden?

38:01

Cornelias C. Williams

Even with the garden. During the depression, it was terrible years. Something I'll never forget.

38:03

Mary Hebert

Did any of Roosevelt's programs help?

38:08

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, the New Deal, that really put things on the ball.

38:11

Mary Hebert

But the depression was really—

38:15

Cornelias C. Williams

Yeah, it was a drastic thing in the south, period.

38:15

Mary Hebert

Did the New Deal programs help your grandmother's farm, did the AAA help at all?

38:27

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes. And they had something called the, what was it that you could go and work and make some money?

38:35

Mary Hebert

The WPA?

38:49

Cornelias C. Williams

WPA. That's it. WPA.

38:49

Mary Hebert

Did you work for the WPA or—?

38:49

Cornelias C. Williams

No, some of my relatives did.

38:56

Mary Hebert

And did they go off and work on building programs?

38:59

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

39:01

Mary Hebert

Were there any WPA workers that went into your community and built roads or stores or—?

39:03

Cornelias C. Williams

No.

39:09

Mary Hebert

Do you need to go in there?

39:20

Cornelias C. Williams

No. No.

39:21

Mary Hebert

What about World War II? Do you remember when the war started?

39:26

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes, I do.

39:29

Mary Hebert

Were y'all by the radio and heard Roosevelt's speech?

39:32

Cornelias C. Williams

When it began?

39:36

Mary Hebert

Yeah, in 19—

39:38

Cornelias C. Williams

I was in high school. 1944. And my mother went to the selective board and got me deferred until I finished high school.

39:38

Mary Hebert

You got to finish?

39:53

Cornelias C. Williams

I did finish high school. But after that, they called me right in June. I finished in May and they called me in June.

39:54

Mary Hebert

How did she get you deferred? Did she just go and appeal to the board?

40:08

Cornelias C. Williams

She did.

40:12

Mary Hebert

So you were 18 and old enough to be drafted.

40:14

Cornelias C. Williams

Right.

40:16

Mary Hebert

Where did you go to boot camp? Do you remember that?

40:16

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes. Fort Jackson, South Carolina. Then, my really boot train was in Fort Dix, New Jersey, which was cold. I'll never forget that. The infiltration coats and all of that we had to go through.

40:17

Mary Hebert

But you didn't have to go overseas. Did the war end before you—

40:42

Cornelias C. Williams

I was supposed to have gone, but I got hurt in an accident. That's where my battalion went, but I didn't go.

40:47

Mary Hebert

And you said before that the White officers didn't treat you incredibly bad, or did they treat you like you were inferior to them?

40:56

Cornelias C. Williams

Yes.

41:05

Mary Hebert

Were these camps that you were at, integrated camps, meaning did they have White soldiers on them also [indistinct 00:41:14]?

41:07

Cornelias C. Williams

We had some Whites in the barracks, yes.

41:13

Mary Hebert

Was that segregated though? They slept on one side and you slept on the other side at that time?

41:17

Cornelias C. Williams

No. A White fellow slept right over me.

41:26

Mary Hebert

And how did they treat you, just the foot soldiers, the regular soldiers?

41:27

Cornelias C. Williams

Pretty good I would think.

41:31

Mary Hebert

Were those mostly northerners?

41:32

Cornelias C. Williams

They were. And you could tell when you came around a Southerner.

41:37

Mary Hebert

I think those are about all the questions I have for you. Is there anything that I haven't covered that you want to talk about that I didn't get to? Anything about the school or working out here?

41:51

Cornelias C. Williams

No, I don't think so. I believe that's it.

42:05

Mary Hebert

Okay.

42:07

C. C. Williams interview recording, 1995 June 22

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1. C. C. Williams administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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