RL00170-CS-1030_01 / George Moore interview recording, 1993 July 28 / Duke Digital Repository

George Azel Moore

On Jones Street, city of New Bern.

0:02

Kara Miles

What was your house like? Tell me what kind of house you grew up in.

0:08

George Azel Moore

Well, we had a household of three sisters and myself. My grandmother lived with us prior to her death in 1932. But I would say it was a very nice, pleasant childhood experience. I attended the West Street School here and the high school before going away to North Carolina Central in Durham.

0:12

Kara Miles

Why did you choose to go to Central?

0:40

George Azel Moore

Number one, it's a good school. Number two, the President, Dr. Shepard, and my father were good friends in the Masons, and I was offered a scholarship by Dr. Shepard.

0:47

Kara Miles

What did you study there?

1:02

George Azel Moore

Commerce and History.

1:05

Kara Miles

What did you end up doing with that and what were you interested in at the time doing with that?

1:10

George Azel Moore

Well, after leaving North Carolina Central, I joined the Air Force where I was able to use my training in the accounting finance career field. I stayed in the Air Force 20 years where I worked in that field all the time.

1:15

Kara Miles

Is this when you would've started working in the Air Force?

1:39

George Azel Moore

Back what now?

1:44

Kara Miles

What time period is this when you started working in the Air Force?

1:45

George Azel Moore

1951 to 1971.

1:48

Kara Miles

Was the Air Force segregated when you started?

1:55

George Azel Moore

No, it was recently integrated by Truman's Executive Rrder of 1948. And one reason I joined the Air Force, at that time, was because of its integration. They were ahead of other services.

1:58

Kara Miles

Did you have any problems? I mean this was in the early years of Blacks and Whites being together there. Were there any tensions with the White servicemen or?

2:19

George Azel Moore

I can say yes, but there's minor problems. More of a individual to individual problem rather than a mass group problem.

2:30

Kara Miles

So the officers and things you think treated the Black—?

2:47

George Azel Moore

I think they were treated pretty good.

2:52

Kara Miles

Fairly?

2:53

George Azel Moore

Yeah. You always run across some S-O-Bs, and that means servant of brotherhood.

2:54

Kara Miles

Okay. All right. Well, let's go back. You said that your grandmother lived with you. How old were you when she died?

3:07

George Azel Moore

About 4 years old.

3:19

Kara Miles

Okay. So you don't remember too much about her?

3:22

George Azel Moore

No, not too much. Not many conversations at all. The fact that she used to walk me around neighborhood and visit neighbors. At night, sit around a pot-belly stove.

3:24

Speaker 1

Oh Lord.

3:40

Speaker 2

Hurry up and get out.

3:40

Kara Miles

Do you remember any of your other grandparents?

3:42

George Azel Moore

No. No.

3:45

Kara Miles

We were talking about your house. How big a house did you grow up in? How many rooms did it have?

3:51

George Azel Moore

Six room house with toilet, three bedrooms.

3:57

Kara Miles

That's two story?

4:00

George Azel Moore

Two story.

4:03

Speaker 1

Oh.

4:04

Kara Miles

Was that pretty unusual at that time to have an inside toilet?

4:06

George Azel Moore

Yes. In fact, I remember when they put water down Jones Street from Pollock Street and it stopped at my house because my daddy had them to put it up there.

4:13

Kara Miles

Do you remember when this—could you give me like a year or period of time this was?

4:38

George Azel Moore

I guess about '34, '36, about '34. Somewhere along around '34 I'd say.

4:49

Kara Miles

So your family was one of the more well off families in New Bern, one of the more well off Black families in New Bern.

4:52

George Azel Moore

They were one of the lucky Black families, I say. I'll put it that way. But we were not rich by any means. However, my daddy worked long hours to make provisions for us. Didn't have an eight-hour day job.

5:06

Kara Miles

What did your father do?

5:25

George Azel Moore

Ran a grocery store from 1910 till he died in 1956.

5:27

Kara Miles

Oh. Do you know how he got the money and such to acquire a store?

5:30

George Azel Moore

Yes, yes. He went to New Jersey to work as a youth and he returned in 1910 and started selling sardines and crackers and he built up from there.

5:41

Kara Miles

Started selling them like on the street?

5:58

George Azel Moore

No, he had a store.

6:00

Kara Miles

He had a store already.

6:02

George Azel Moore

A little place on the corner of Jones and Pollock, selling sardines and crackers. Five cents for sardines and probably a nickel for crackers.

6:03

Kara Miles

And did your mother work outside the home?

6:16

George Azel Moore

No, except one time she worked for Forbretta's Laundry. They're now closed. She worked there I guess two or three weeks, something like that.

6:19

Kara Miles

Why did she—

6:30

George Azel Moore

And then she worked in the store.

6:31

Kara Miles

Okay.

6:33

George Azel Moore

Principally, when my father was out of town.

6:33

Kara Miles

Why did she work at the laundry for a few weeks?

6:39

George Azel Moore

Get some spending change on her own. I believe that's why.

6:41

Kara Miles

But after a few weeks she decided she didn't need this spending change.

6:47

George Azel Moore

I don't know what happened, but during those days people were working really for nothing anyway. 15 cents an hour, you better all stay at home getting nothing than going down there, you know, exerting yourself for nothing.

6:51

Kara Miles

Were you growing up during the Depression? How old were you?

7:08

George Azel Moore

Yes. Mm-hmm. That's right.

7:10

Kara Miles

Can you tell me about the Depression? What do you remember about it?

7:15

George Azel Moore

I was born under Republican president in 1928. Shortly thereafter, when Hoover became President, that's when the Depression really hit this area. People were working for 15 cents, 25 cents an hour and glad to get the work. The bottom had dropped out of everything almost. A lot of unemployment. I remember when the veterans of World War I received their bonuses. I think it was in 1932. No it was later than '32. They did get some bonus from serving in the World War. Congress passed and approved later on. But around here, major employers were the mills, especially for our people. I was glad to see it come to an end. I really was.

7:26

Kara Miles

What did you used to do for fun as a child?

8:42

George Azel Moore

Beg your pardon?

8:47

Kara Miles

What did you used to do for fun as a child?

8:48

George Azel Moore

Play on the street corner, play in school during recess, and we had our teenage clubs and dances and what have you.

8:49

Kara Miles

What kind of clubs did you have?

9:00

George Azel Moore

We had a teenage club here one. And through the church we had Sunday school, picnics, hikes. And let me see what else. House parties.

9:01

Kara Miles

You talked about Sunday school picnics. Was church a very important part Of your life growing up?

9:28

George Azel Moore

Oh yes. Oh yeah. My mother and father both grew up in Clinton Chapel Church where I belong now. And all of us used to sit up front and Sunday school. All four of us with my daddy. He was trustee, he sat up front and my mother, poor lady, she used to get up, feed, dress us all and get us off on time.

9:34

Kara Miles

Did church meet every Sunday here?

10:02

George Azel Moore

Every Sunday. This is a station, what we call a station church, which meets every Sunday. Some of our churches meet twice a month. I don't think we have many now that meet less than twice a month.

10:04

Kara Miles

But your church was always a station?

10:22

George Azel Moore

Oh yes, station church. We were talking about the churches and see Clinton Chapel AME Zion church on Church Street. You probably been in that area already, I'm sure, is one of the city's prime churches. Is one of the big churches in the North Carolina AME Zion Conference.

10:23

Kara Miles

Did you like going to church as a child?

10:52

George Azel Moore

Oh yes. Still like it.

10:55

Kara Miles

Yeah. What did you—

10:58

George Azel Moore

I just don't go as often as I used to.

10:59

Kara Miles

What did you used to like about it?

11:02

George Azel Moore

The comradeship, friendship, participation in Sunday school programs, and just one of those things you were expected to do here in my church.

11:06

Kara Miles

Is this a, sorry, was this a Baptist church?

11:19

George Azel Moore

Clinton Chapel AME Zion Church.

11:24

Kara Miles

Clinton Chapel, sorry.

11:28

George Azel Moore

Methodist, African Methodist Episcopal.

11:31

Kara Miles

Did White people live near you when you were growing up?

11:41

George Azel Moore

Yeah, some of them lived on my street.

11:49

Kara Miles

Really?

11:49

George Azel Moore

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

11:49

Kara Miles

What kind of relationship did your family have with them?

11:49

George Azel Moore

Good relationship. My father, being in business, he had White customers. Yeah, he had good relationship with White folks and still do. A lot of the old ones are long gone now.

11:53

Kara Miles

Was most of New Bern integrated like that or was it mostly —?

12:08

George Azel Moore

No, and New Bern's more integrated now than it ever was, I believe. Most Blacks lived in Duffyfield or one area of the railroad track and I lived on the other side of the railroad track, and we had some White folks on Pollock Street, which is a block or so from where I lived. But most of Black people lived across town. It's what we called it, across town.

12:24

George Azel Moore

All right. See you [indistinct 00:13:12].

13:06

Kara Miles

You said your parents, your father got along well with the Whites. Do you ever remember any conflicts between him and any White people?

13:14

George Azel Moore

No, I sure don't.

13:27

Kara Miles

And White people would come to his store?

13:31

George Azel Moore

Oh yeah, we had White customers on a daily basis. You had more White ones than Black ones.

13:33

Kara Miles

Really? Tell me about segregation in New Bern.

13:41

George Azel Moore

New Bern has been called by some police officials as the freest town for Blacks in North Carolina.

13:58

Kara Miles

As the freest?

14:06

George Azel Moore

Freest town for Blacks in North Carolina. Now that I believe started from Blacks coming from all over North Carolina to James City. See James City used to be a place a lot of Blacks came to because the Union Army, when they came to New Bern, they came from James City way and they freed the slaves starting over there. I'd say New Bern never was a place for strong animosity and feeling, in general, for Black people.

14:07

Kara Miles

So you would say race relations was relatively good?

14:52

George Azel Moore

Good according to the segregated society in effect at that time. Yeah, I would say so.

14:55

Kara Miles

Were there ever any incidents of racial violence or Klan activity or anything?

15:04

George Azel Moore

Riots anything, I don't remember a thing. No, I sure don't. No uprisings, nothing of that nature. Mm-hmm.

15:09

Kara Miles

Tell me about like were buses and streetcars segregated and things here?

15:24

George Azel Moore

I'm not sure about streetcars. Streetcars used to come to the end of my street, but they took those out of commission late '20s or early '30s. But we had a bus station here. And I understand the first bus station here was run and operated by Black people. Just before the integration, I say prior to the '60s, the bus station had on the front at one time Colored on one side, White on the other. Then they remodeled the building, put the Whites on the front with the Blacks on the back.

15:40

George Azel Moore

And as far as I know, White taxis would ride you if you summoned them. And I'd been to Atlanta and I couldn't get a taxi from White drivers. That was in the '50s. I would say that I don't think there's ever been much segregation or discrimination from business people as long as you had the money to buy from them. But they wouldn't hire us a lot of times unless you were doing a menial job for them as a maid or something of that nature.

16:31

Kara Miles

If you were in a store waiting to buy something and someone White came in, would they wait—

17:24

George Azel Moore

That still happens sometimes today. Yes. Sometimes that you have to call a ham and you find that happening. Yeah. And at one while there, I heard my daddy say that merchants downtown would send dresses, and goods, and whatever to Black women of means here. And we have had some Negroes with some money in this area. They would send stuff up for them to pick out, make their selection so they wouldn't have to go downtown. In fact, practically all those farmers I guess now are gone away or dead because I can't think of a one around here now. But that did happen.

17:29

Kara Miles

Would your family have been considered a family of means?

18:23

George Azel Moore

No.

18:25

Kara Miles

No.

18:25

George Azel Moore

No. Some people may consider them as such. Well, I'll take that back. I guess some people still do consider my dad as having been a man of means, a merchant long time, owned cars. If people didn't have a good pair of shoes and property. Some would call that man of means.

18:28

Kara Miles

What kind of Black people were here then that you would've said were of means? What did they do?

18:56

George Azel Moore

Well, we've always had three or four Black lawyers around here until most recent years. And of course, the undertakers were all Black. We had four or five Black doctors here in this town including one dentist. And they were looked upon, the school teachers, had cars, they were looked upon people of means. It was a great privilege and honor to be a teacher during those years. And just some recent years that people start doing something other than teach.

19:05

George Azel Moore

Because I went to North Carolina Central, I took up student teaching. I took up education courses to do student teaching because my daddy thought he should prepare me to teach in case I needed to do that and make a living. But I never desired to spread any ignorance. It wasn't until I got ready to get out the Air Force that I got my teaching certificate in North Carolina, Delaware, and New Jersey just as a hedge, but I never desired to do any teaching and I didn't.

19:41

Kara Miles

Tell me about your teachers growing up. Do you remember were any of them special to you? Did you admire or were there some that you admired a lot that you learned a lot from?

20:21

George Azel Moore

Yes. I would consider myself lucky because I had some good teachers at West Street School. Teachers who were interested in the students learning. If you got out of hand, out of step in school, they send a note to your mother and father. You may have get a beating there and get one when you get home. I would say I had some good teachers who prepared me well for entry into North Carolina Central University.

20:35

George Azel Moore

We've had a couple of band directors here whom I knew and studied under and I believe that the faculty at West Street High School, when I came along, is different than what Black children are getting now in the integrated schools. The teachers were more interested in the students learning and I believe they were of what we call it, old school, who wanted to see you do well. Teachers nowadays, if you do it, you do it. They don't give a rip. I heard a teacher tell a student, "I got mine. You got yours to get." Terrible, isn't it?

21:16

Kara Miles

Why do you think that change occurred?

22:06

George Azel Moore

Integration. Integration has worked to the great disadvantage of most Black folks.

22:08

Kara Miles

Do you think integration in all aspects or are you talking specifically about school integration?

22:16

George Azel Moore

Schools primarily, but overall, looking at the overall picture, I think it's better for Blacks and it's going to get better the more we can eliminate discrimination. A man can be considered a man regardless of his color. It's moving, but slowly.

22:22

Kara Miles

Just switching tact a little bit, you said that you were saying something that your father had told you about them sending clothes to the women.

22:51

George Azel Moore

Oh, yeah.

23:00

Kara Miles

Do you remember other things that your father told you about his period, his generation, that period of time that he lived in?

23:01

George Azel Moore

Well around New Bern, the fraternities, Elks, Mason, Knights of Gideon, Knights of Pythias, and Odd Fellows, to name the men's organizations, the Eastern Star. Other than traits, that was the secondary social outlet for Blacks. Church number one and these Pound Societies were the second primary thing that Blacks participated in around here for social activity, for having something to do.

23:14

Kara Miles

What was the Pound Society? What was the Pound Society?

23:58

George Azel Moore

It is, right on, a society founded by New Bern people, which is still in existence, formed an organization. Members joined and they paid so much a month. When a member died, each member would give them a pound of this, a pound of that. In those days when it was hard to come by, it was a little insurance society, really what it was and there are some members still. It was headed by church people. That's what they did.

24:02

Kara Miles

You mentioned all the men's organizations. What were the women's organizations like that?

24:47

George Azel Moore

Eastern Star is the oldest woman's organization, I believe. Now, you did have the Household of Ruth and some of the other a women's organizations who were affiliated with some of the men's fraternities. I don't know what the Household of Ruth they affiliated with one, I think it's the Odd Fellows, I believe. Now over years, as radio and other things came into being, more attention getting things, they sort of died out. But right now, we have a strong Elks Lodge here and strong woman's Elks and several Greek letter organizations still going strong now.

24:52

Kara Miles

You said your father was a Mason. Was he in any of the other fraternal organizations?

25:54

George Azel Moore

Well, at one time he was head of the Elks, the Masons, the Odd Fellows, Knight Pythian and Knights of Gideons.

26:01

Kara Miles

Wow.

26:10

George Azel Moore

There's five of them. And he died, he was the State Treasurer of the Masons. That's 28 years State Treasurer and he's been the State President of the Elks.

26:11

Kara Miles

Are all those organizations kind of the same? Are there differences?

26:26

George Azel Moore

They're different but working toward, principally, the same goals of helping Blacks. Providing a social outlet for them, comradeship. And like the Masons today, a Mason dies, you get $500 burial benefit. I remember they used to got $50 during the Depression. In 1935 you got $50. $50 would bury you then. $500 won't do much for you now, but they'll get you a cloth. That's about all. But the fraternities and sororities existed because, principally, of economic reasons banding together to help one another stay alive, stay healthy.

26:30

Kara Miles

Could anybody join these organizations?

27:32

George Azel Moore

Anybody of good character. And to join some organizations you have to believe in God.

27:36

Kara Miles

Could you tell me which ones those were?

27:46

George Azel Moore

The Masons. You have to believe in God to join the Masons. See I'm Mason now.

27:48

Kara Miles

When did you become a Mason?

27:54

George Azel Moore

Before you were born. I've been a Mason since 1949.

28:06

Kara Miles

You said people of good character could join.

28:06

George Azel Moore

You had to be recommended.

28:07

Kara Miles

Okay. By one already.

28:08

George Azel Moore

By someone already in. Yes. And one guy could and still can keep you out of the Masons if you get a blackball. Some of the organizations you have to have more than one to keep you out. But sometimes if you don't like a guy you could conceivably blackball him, but they usually do that only for cause. I doubt they would take a known murderer in the Lodge. I doubt it.

28:10

Kara Miles

When you were at Central, did you join like a fraternity there?

28:50

George Azel Moore

I joined the greatest, that's the Omega Psi Phi fraternity.

28:56

Kara Miles

I knew that you were Omega.

29:05

George Azel Moore

Omega Psi Phi fraternity. I joined the Omega's about three or four months before I became a Mason. And I'm still in. I got a 40-year plaque in the other room.

29:09

Kara Miles

What made you choose Omega over the other ones?

29:18

George Azel Moore

Number one, my sister was a Delta and she had some influence on me. And when I went to North Carolina Central, you always find Omegas in leadership positions and they ran the campus, especially when I was there. And from Student Government President to on down the major dances we had prettiest girls. Well, Omega's still have a good program. We are more community oriented now. Doing more for others than just having dances.

29:23

Kara Miles

So back then it wasn't so community oriented.

30:08

George Azel Moore

Not as much as it is now. Not as much as is now. Trying to do something for other people is what we are about now more so.

30:12

Kara Miles

How about the fraternal organizations back then? Were they more social oriented or more community oriented?

30:20

George Azel Moore

I'd say community because number one, very few people had cars and telephones. So when you went the meeting, that's one measure of socializing with someone you haven't seen maybe in three weeks or a month.

30:30

Kara Miles

Is there any connection between White and Black Masons? We know there's White Masons too.

30:50

George Azel Moore

We use the same books, same handshakes, same signs and symbols. But they have their meetings and we have ours.

30:55

Kara Miles

So you would never have had contact?

31:02

George Azel Moore

Nope. I have had contact with some, but I have visited the White lodge in England twice. Banquets and what have you. But we don't have any fraternal association here in this town. We have two jurisdictions. We have Prince Hall, Free and Accepted Masons, that's us. And then the Whites are called Free and Accepted Action Masons.

31:06

Kara Miles

What was the first word you said?

31:36

George Azel Moore

Action. AA, Action. What did I say? AF and AM. Action Free and Accepted, now that's us. There's another, they have another name but we all study out of the same book.

31:43

Kara Miles

Was your mother in one of those kind of organizations?

32:10

George Azel Moore

She's a past Matron of the Eastern Star here. In fact, my daddy belonged to the Eastern Star too. Men can join that.

32:14

Speaker 1

Oh really?

32:22

George Azel Moore

Yeah. Yeah. They can join Eastern Star, but the women can't join the Masons.

32:23

Kara Miles

That sounds a bit unfair.

32:28

George Azel Moore

Well see. They belong to us. When I say us, the women belong to the men you see. And they allow men to join the Eastern Star. They have to oversee their activities and they can't have a meeting unless a man's present. The patron. You got to keep them straight.

32:30

George Azel Moore

Now this town, West Street School had the first high school for Blacks in North Carolina.

33:03

Kara Miles

Oh really?

33:13

George Azel Moore

It's not here anymore. And we had an academy here too called Southerners Academy, which is the forerunner of what is now Elizabeth City State University.

33:14

Kara Miles

Wow.

33:27

George Azel Moore

It started in New Bern and then they moved it to Goldsboro. And first thing you knew, Hugh Cale, Elizabeth City, submitted a bill to the legislature to found Elizabeth City State Normal School and that became Elizabeth City State University. And New Bern has produced plenty of doctors, medical doctors, lawyers. At that time you could pass the bar without ever having to go to law school. We did have one lawyer, O'Hara, his father was a congressman here in this area.

33:28

George Azel Moore

He was in law school when he passed the bar. And he was practicing before he finished. He just went through the formality. Now his daddy was a lawyer, so he what they call read law books in the office. Shaw University, as you know, perhaps used to have a law school and they had a medical school and a dental school. Those are long gone. But all our earlier doctors here went to Shaw University for professional training.

34:12

Kara Miles

So when you were growing up and your family got sick, you had a Black doctor?

34:42

George Azel Moore

Oh yeah, we had Black doctors. Mumford, Mann, Fisher, Martin, there's four Black medical doctors and one dentist.

34:47

Kara Miles

Would any White people go to them?

35:01

George Azel Moore

That, I don't know, but I sort of doubt it. Because they had plenty White doctors too. And they had these sections for backdoor Blacks.

35:03

Kara Miles

What?

35:16

George Azel Moore

Backdoor Blacks mean the Blacks came in the back door where the White persons came in the front. They had a section reserved for Blacks and they treated them.

35:17

Kara Miles

The White doctors?

35:27

George Azel Moore

Mm-hmm. All your surgeons at that time were White.

35:28

Kara Miles

There was a Black hospital here wasn't it?

35:30

George Azel Moore

That's Good Shepherd. I'm sure somebody told you that already. That's on West Street now. It's a nursing home now. That was started by Reverend R. I. Johnson of Episcopalian Church. He started working on that hospital back then. They were buying bricks penny a piece, old used bricks, clean them off. And St. Peters and AME Zion Church did the same thing. They had a fire in 1922. Big fire. They bought and built that church back partially with old brick. But before the hospital was built, Good Shepherd, Blacks were in the basement of the main White hospital here where it leaked at times and what have you, and at least they had a place to go. Some places don't have, even today, hospitals. They had to go miles to get a hospital. We have had two or three hospitals here, private.

35:38

Kara Miles

So when Good Shepherd was built, did Blacks stop going to the White hospital and start going there?

36:40

George Azel Moore

Yes. That's what happened. They closed it off for Blacks.

36:48

Kara Miles

Oh. They stopped letting Blacks go there?

36:52

George Azel Moore

They had to come to Good Shepherd. And the first superintendent at that hospital is in town now. Yeah, it's a fella named Faison lives on Bern Street. Faison, F-A-I-S-O-N, I think. Let's see what's Faison's first name? Ozzie. O-Z-Z-I-E, I think. Ozzie T., I believe. There's a Faison on Bern Street. You had the right one.

36:54

Kara Miles

Okay.

37:24

George Azel Moore

Now, when that hospital closed, he was made the assistant to the hospital administrator of the new hospital. He's retired now.

37:26

Kara Miles

When did it close?

37:39

George Azel Moore

I imagine it was about 1960, about the mid '60s somewhere. But it performed a marvelous service for Black people. We had a Black surgeon here, I think the name was Dr. Patterson, I believe. Anyway, this was too small a town. He couldn't make any money here so he stayed here two or three years and pulled out.

37:42

Kara Miles

Your father owned the store. Did you all ever go to White stores?

38:15

George Azel Moore

Oh, yeah. You had to go the White store some things, of course.

38:20

Kara Miles

What kind of things did you have to go to a White store?

38:26

George Azel Moore

In the late years, he didn't sell meat, for example, but we bought most of our meat on the telephone from Blunt. He owned a grocery store over, I don't think that's Duffyfield, but across town. And we'd get our meat delivered to us from his store.

38:30

Kara Miles

Was that a Black store?

38:47

George Azel Moore

That was a Black store, yeah. And then we had farmer friends. They'd bring us a ham, you know something now and then.

38:48

Kara Miles

Were there department stores here?

39:09

George Azel Moore

Oh yes, but no Black stores, department stores downtown. Downtown, when I remember it for the first time, we had a Black barbershop downtown. Lawyer's office downtown. Lawyer had his office downtown. And they were hardly no Blacks in business downtown in the '30s at all. Barbershops, of course, we had four or five, excuse me, around. No, there weren't any. Now, Blacks have always had barbershops around here. And you still get the cheapest haircut in North Carolina in New Bern.

39:12

Kara Miles

Really?

40:12

George Azel Moore

Three dollars. Three dollars. And let me see, somebody already told you about the fire, I know.

40:13

Kara Miles

The 1922.

40:28

George Azel Moore

The big fire in 1922. Yeah. That wiped out a lot of Black homes down there across in the cemetery area. I'm sure you probably seen it already.

40:29

Kara Miles

No. Actually, I haven't.

40:41

George Azel Moore

You know where the police station is? Did you see that or pass it?

40:42

Kara Miles

I don't know. I've only been here a couple days.

40:46

George Azel Moore

That's okay. So anyway, that wiped out a lot of Black homes. That fire jumped, I don't know why, and it was mostly all Black that burnt.

40:53

Kara Miles

So that destroyed a lot of Black businesses?

41:10

George Azel Moore

A lot of mostly Black homes. And the fire folks wouldn't let them build back. They condemned the property and a second White cemetery was built where a lot of Black homes used to be on George Street. Because I had a aunt had a house that burned out and she moved to West Street. I own that house now. It came down in the family. I'm sure her house is one of them that was built as a result of the big fire in New Bern in 1922.

41:12

Kara Miles

Does anyone know how that fire started?

41:52

George Azel Moore

Well, there are a lot of tales about that. I don't even remember myself now. I really don't. But it started downtown near St. Peter's church. And I have something here, you may be interested in. Save it for now. Mr. Hatch told me at one time the reason he went into funeral business because he was married with Mary Whitley, who owned or started Whitley Funeral Home. Mr. Hatch had a business for years and years. Horse-drawn carriages and what have you. But his business never did flourish greatly, I believe, because a lot of people were envious that he was able to succeed where others had been working for years and failed. It created a lot of animosity.

42:04

Kara Miles

What was he mad at?

43:10

George Azel Moore

I don't know why he was mad at Mary Whitley, but he said he sure wasn't mad with him. So he ran the business, compete against him to get some business from him. I have another book here about—anybody show you the West Street Alumni Bulletin a couple years ago?

43:11

Kara Miles

I think so.

43:29

George Azel Moore

You did? Okay. That had some J. T. Barber in it and okay.

43:29

Kara Miles

I think I saw that. I know it talks in here about how being a Lodge member helped him in his travels and things.

43:36

George Azel Moore

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.

43:48

Kara Miles

Do you have any experiences like that?

43:50

George Azel Moore

Yes. When I first went to Denver, Colorado, I was in the Air Force then. After I'd been in town, I guess a couple of weeks, I wrote our headquarters in Washington and asked them who the Omegas were in Denver. They gave me a name. The fella just died not too long ago. And I went around his house that day, met his wife and went to meetings, the Omegas in Denver, and I was made to feel at home. Some of those same fellows I used to see at Grand Conclaves. One of our oldest members, Holmes, used to live in Denver as a dentist. It's been an avenue for me to a large friendships and I have enjoyed the association since 1949 and being a member of Omega Psi Phi fraternity.

43:56

Kara Miles

Were these organizations back during segregation? Did they provide like a support system? I mean, if there were places that you couldn't stay in hotels, did you [indistinct 00:45:09]?

44:56

George Azel Moore

Yes, you could. Yeah. Yeah. You looked up your brothers as you went from town to town or somebody recommended you see so-and-so when you go there. Oh, yes. Because most of our members in the '30s, '40s, were connected with the school system. The Grand Conclave met when school was out for Christmas break. Now we meet every other year, in the summertime, so they can bring their families and all. You can stay there when you have the money now, but there was a time that you had to schedule that meeting where Blacks could stay because it was tough getting around for a meeting. Mm-hmm.

45:11

Kara Miles

Tell me about travel during this period. You said it was tough getting around.

46:04

George Azel Moore

Yeah, because segregated travel was terrible. Even right here in town, you had to sit on the back of the bus. I remember when I came from—

46:09

RL00170-CS-1030_01

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John Hope Franklin Research Center