Joseph Henry interview recording, 1994 August 03

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Kate Ellis	Will you say your name and when you were born?	0:03
Joseph Henry	Okay. My name is Joseph Henry, and I was born December the 2nd, 1931.	0:05
Kate Ellis	Okay. Where?	0:13
Joseph Henry	New Iberia, Louisiana.	0:14
Kate Ellis	So the way I'd like to start is to just ask you to tell me about the community that you grew up in, what you remember about growing up, and I'll just ask you questions as we go along.	0:18
Joseph Henry	Okay. Ready?	0:31
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	0:33
Joseph Henry	Okay. I was born in New Iberia, and I was born across the bayou, which are divided into three parts. The city is divided into three parts. We have downtown, uptown, and across the bayou and which also had two names from across the bayou. The two names, it was Freetown or Little Brooklyn. The reason why it was called more or less Little Brooklyn is because a lot of the people, they were into baseball. They had the Dodgers and the Yankees. Those that was half of the streets, in which we had three streets in that neighborhood.	0:34
Joseph Henry	The name of the street was Johnston, Rosier, and Hortense. The three street was divided into sections during the baseball seasons. One street and a half were Dodgers, and the next street and a half was the Yankees. But the majority of the people called where we was born at Little Brooklyn. In that neighborhood there, we had a lot of the people, well, the older people, we was always taught that we must respect everybody.	1:25
Joseph Henry	Being in that way by respecting the people, even though when the White comes along and we are talking to the White, we have to say, "Yes, ma'am," or, "No, ma'am," to the White and as well as to the Black. Even if they are 16 and 17 years old, if they're older than you, you must say, "Yes, ma'am," or, "No, ma'am." If any time we did not say it, well, then the person that we are talking to had a right to slap us or whip us. And then they would bring us over to tell our grandfather and grandmother, and they would do the same thing. We'd get another whipping or a slapping.	2:09
Joseph Henry	And then when my mother and father get off in the afternoon, well, again, we'd get another whipping because that shows that we had to be able to respect the people. In our neighborhood there, we hardly ever had too many problems. But the only problem that we had mostly were segregated. But then the segregated part of it, especially in the school, they didn't have a law stating that the school was segregated. Otherwise, we segregated ourselves in that area.	2:59
Joseph Henry	But say when we go to a store, we had to wait until the White is served before we can get served. And then if they had a drinking fountain, we couldn't drink from the drinking fountain. Or if we had to go to a restroom, we couldn't go to the restroom. We had to hold off until we get home or go any place you can. But then now the people over where we lived at there, they wasn't too prejudiced. I mean you had some of them there that would call you a nigger or a Black nigger or something.	3:53
Joseph Henry	But then most of the people there, everybody knew everybody. And then sometime when things get where you had a problem where you had family run into a problem, well, then everybody would come and help. But then now on this side, the bayou, well, uptown or downtown, it was a little different because here they had more or less a lot more prejudice on this side than we did on the other side across the bayou.	4:41
Kate Ellis	Can I just get something straight in my head? In your community, so Whites and Blacks lived in the same area in the community?	5:25
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, we had in the community there when we first came into the community, there were only three streets and there were only Blacks in that particular area. They had about a street down, which was called the Perry Avenue. Well, there they had not many Whites in that neighborhood. So it was pretty well, in a way, it wasn't that much prejudice.	5:35
Kate Ellis	It wasn't that much prejudice because there weren't that many Whites?	6:09
Joseph Henry	That many Whites then.	6:12
Kate Ellis	I see.	6:14
Joseph Henry	Then years later, well, then they had more Whites started moving in. Then that's where the most prejudice started coming in at that time.	6:16
Kate Ellis	So when more Whites moved into that area, the prejudice went up. You felt more prejudice there.	6:33
Joseph Henry	That's the truth because that time, you see, before then when they just had a few, well, see, the Black kids and White kids played together and nobody didn't say nothing. I remember when we were small, we had our grandfather give us a little pig, and we raised him up until he was about that high.	6:44
Kate Ellis	Big.	7:16
Joseph Henry	He used to go to the stores with us, go to the store.	7:19
Kate Ellis	Really?	7:22
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah. When he walking down the streets, people that know him would give him a apple or something to eat. One time, well, he got lost.	7:22
Kate Ellis	The pig got lost?	7:35
Joseph Henry	Uh-huh. And then our mayor, we had the mayor. Mostly all our mayors were from across the bayou. So we called the policemen. A lot of the White people, the few that they had there, would send their kids out—	7:37
Kate Ellis	To look for the pig?	8:03
Joseph Henry	— to look for him. So one day they found him about eight houses down on the Perry Avenue, and he was laying in the water, see? They brought him home. So now every time he go to the store now, sometime he'll just stand up and little kids will bring him something. And then, too, he used to be a pretty good watchdog.	8:05
Kate Ellis	The pig did?	8:34
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Watchdog. My brother next to me, Charles Henry, the hog used to watch him all the time. Him and the hog would be walking down the street and sometime the hog might stop, and now he'll stop, too. He was always a person that always sleeping, see?	8:35
Kate Ellis	He's always sleeping?	9:03
Joseph Henry	Going to sleep. Oh, yeah. He'd go to sleep.	9:06
Kate Ellis	Your brother was?	9:08
Joseph Henry	Yeah, he'd go to sleep anywhere. So what they done, yeah, now anytime him and the hog is together, now whenever he stopping, man, he asleep. See? This hog slid right there on the side of him.	9:08
Kate Ellis	Why? Was it almost like a condition where he'd fall asleep?	9:23
Joseph Henry	Well, no, it was just that laziness, whenever laziness hit him.	9:32
Kate Ellis	So he might sit down in a chair and the next thing you know, he'd be asleep.	9:37
Joseph Henry	Next thing, he'd go—	9:40
Kate Ellis	The hog would be next to him sleeping, too.	9:40
Joseph Henry	That's the truth. So then one time they had some White people passed in a car. Boy, the hog seen the car coming, and he just stood up and stood crossway the road. So they had some other White people that lived down not too far from where we were living at. The man told them. He said they better not hit that hog. So the man drove around him, and they called the policeman. The policeman came to get my brother and, man, that hog wouldn't let him touch him.	9:42
Kate Ellis	Wouldn't let the police touch the hog?	10:27
Joseph Henry	Touch him.	10:29
Kate Ellis	Touch him.	10:29
Joseph Henry	So what they done, the next thing there was a man across the street. He told the policeman. He said, "That hog don't bother nobody." He said, "That hog is watching that kid." So our mayor came and check and see. He said, "Well, from now on up, anytime you see that hog in the street, you go around him," so everybody that comes around in the neighborhood.	10:33
Kate Ellis	Would go around the hog in the —	11:02
Joseph Henry	If he's in the middle of the street. Now, my brother sometime now, he would just be walking, playing. And then the next thing you know, he'd stop and he'll sleep in the middle of the street. That hog would just lay right crossway.	11:04
Kate Ellis	That's amazing.	11:22
Joseph Henry	So about a year later, my grandfather killed him. So nobody in the neighborhood, they had something about 250-pound of meat. They had made boudin and hog cracklins and stuff. When they found out that the hog was — We used to call the hog Chugalug.	11:24
Kate Ellis	His name was Chugalug?	11:50
Joseph Henry	Chugalug, uh-huh. When they found out that he was the one that was killed, nobody in the neighborhood — My little family there.	11:54
Kate Ellis	Oh, I've got those.	12:03
Joseph Henry	Nobody in the neighborhood would—	12:04
Kate Ellis	Eat it?	12:07
Joseph Henry	— eat it. So we had to give the meat to somebody else across the bayou, I mean on this side, see, because nobody in our little neighborhood, Brooklyn, wouldn't eat it.	12:07
Kate Ellis	Would you eat it? Did you know that your grandfather was going to kill it?	12:19
Joseph Henry	No. You see, we was all at school that day. The hog weighed about something like about 500 pounds, a big red hog. When they killed him, well, we came back from school and we went looking all over the neighborhood. We wasn't too far from Mount Carmel.	12:23
Kate Ellis	Mount Carmel?	12:41
Joseph Henry	Yeah. They had their students and there was nothing but girls' school. Those girls was all looking for him, too. We were all looking for him, see? When they found out that my grandfather had killed him, and then you see now he felt bad about it. So he said never no more will he give us another pet.	12:43
Kate Ellis	He'd never give you a pet again?	13:07
Joseph Henry	Another pet again, sure. Every time I think about it because he was just like, I'd say, another person. Sometime they would send him to the store with a note.	13:08
Kate Ellis	No kidding?	13:26
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Send him to the store and he'll go there by the door and push the door open. The man would go, take the note out of his collar and then if it's meat or whatever it is, tie it and put it on his back and tell him, "See, now go home." And now he'd go on, see? But after they killed him, man, that was something there.	13:27
Kate Ellis	That must have been heartbreaking.	13:57
Joseph Henry	Well, everybody in the neighborhood felt that, all the kids. They used to have a lot of the people go to the city park, and sometime he would be way over yonder in the park and nobody wouldn't hurt him. Nobody didn't try to hurt him. All they had to say, well, is he's around the neighborhood. Most of the time, he'd go to the White, because the White people always had a lot to give.	13:59
Kate Ellis	Oh, really? So they'd feed the hog?	14:35
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah. Feed the hog.	14:36
Kate Ellis	The hog went to the White neighborhood to get some food?	14:36
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah. Because when he was small, and one thing, too, he wouldn't even eat out of a trough. We used to take him when he was small and feed him at the kitchen table, feed him out of a plate, and that's how he would eat. If you didn't put his food in the plate, he wasn't going to eat. Boy, we would wash him off and keep him clean. He would see to waddle in mud. Oh, no. Uh-uh. He'd go by the faucet. We had a faucet.	14:36
Joseph Henry	Sometime again, he goes to the White people, and they would wash him, run water on him. Man, he'd come back and go to sleep or go eat. And then about 6:00, it was time for him to go to bed, see? So he'd go to bed about around 6:00. But 4:00 in the morning, that's about the same time we'd get up, about around 4:00. Now, when school time start, we up at 3:00 in the morning.	15:13
Kate Ellis	3:00 in the morning?	15:40
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah. See, because they used to tell what day school is open. All they'd have to do is to sit down and look out in the yard. See, we was out in the yard playing, see, at 3:00 in the morning. And then we didn't have to go to school until about 8:00.	15:41
Kate Ellis	So wait, you would wake up at 3:00 in the morning?	16:04
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah. All of us. We had about five of us used to get up at 3:00 in the morning.	16:06
Kate Ellis	And play in the yard?	16:11
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah.	16:13
Kate Ellis	Before school?	16:15
Joseph Henry	Before school. A lot of time, my mother used to put us on these knickerbockers that these golfers wear, the pants that got the rubber in the leg. Well, we used to wear that. Most of the time, my mother would make us, we would wear White knickerbockers and go to school. Man, we'd come back and we could wear those clothes three days. We'd never get them dirty.	16:15
Joseph Henry	So then, now something like that, well, we learned too that you have to take care of the things you have because it was in line to the next person. Sometime all the boys wear the same pants, same clothes. Just like the oldest girl, and now all the rest of the girls would wear the same clothes she would wear. A lot of time, well, we was given things. A lot of the White people, they had clothes that they didn't want.	16:48
Joseph Henry	Sometime we had one group of people there, White, that went to the store and bought clothes to give to the Blacks. And again, like I said, it wasn't too much segregation going there. But about 10 years later, when they started having new people move in, then that's where a lot of the — Well, then in that time, most of the older people had passed away and the younger people came up. Now, that's the time where segregation was real rough at that time.	17:32
Kate Ellis	In your neighborhood?	18:16
Joseph Henry	In my neighborhood.	18:16
Kate Ellis	Because new Whites came in and they weren't as friendly. They didn't know you. Is that what you're saying?	18:18
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, a lot of them came in with an attitude that, like I said, a nigger is, like I said, well, all a nigger could do is shine their shoes, the younger people. A lot of time, we had a lot of the older people that was still around. Well, like one time we had some White people that came into the Black neighborhood one night. Well, they didn't do anything, but they just was in our neighborhood.	18:25
Kate Ellis	As if they were going to do something?	19:06
Joseph Henry	Well, as if. They was there more or less to try to frighten the Blacks.	19:06
Kate Ellis	Were they like KKK people?	19:16
Joseph Henry	Well, no, we didn't have any KKK people around. We didn't have any.	19:18
Kate Ellis	But it was like a gang of White people?	19:23
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, they might sometime might have about 10 or 15 of them riding around in cars, came into the neighborhood. But then when the older White heard about it, they called, like I said, our mayor was from across the bayou.	19:25
Kate Ellis	Oh, the mayor was from your neighborhood?	19:46
Joseph Henry	From our neighborhood, uh-huh.	19:47
Kate Ellis	What was the name of the mayor?	19:48
Joseph Henry	Mayor Kaki Viator. Yeah. I think it's K-A.	19:50
Kate Ellis	That's okay. But V-I-A-T-O-R?	19:58
Joseph Henry	Uh-huh Viator.	20:01
Kate Ellis	I know that because I saw that name recently. I saw a street sign with that name. So maybe it was named after him.	20:03
Joseph Henry	Yeah, after him.	20:09
Kate Ellis	So he was from your neighborhood?	20:10
Joseph Henry	Yeah, from our neighborhood.	20:11
Kate Ellis	So was he friendly to the folks in your neighborhood?	20:12
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah. He was very friendly because I remember one time we had — Well, after a lot of new people came in, started moving into the neighborhood, well then that's when the fighting start. I mean they would beat up four or five Blacks and then wasn't nothing done. See?	20:16
Kate Ellis	Wow. Whites would beat up Blacks in your neighborhood?	20:51
Joseph Henry	In my neighborhood.	20:53
Kate Ellis	No police would come. No—	20:56
Joseph Henry	No. That's the truth.	20:57
Kate Ellis	Wow.	21:01
Joseph Henry	So one time the mayor called us and he said, "Well, they had this gang here." They called himself the Nickel Gang. See? They gave us all kind of trouble.	21:02
Kate Ellis	The Nickel Gang?	21:18
Joseph Henry	The Nickel Gang. Then the next thing, the mayor called us, called all the guys together. He told us. He said, "Well," he said, "I'm going to tell you." He said, "Because I don't want nobody to come into my neighborhood and whip on my boys." He said, "If y'all want to do something about it," he said, "I'm going to have them pick y'all up and put us in jail." He told us. He said, "What I want y'all to do," he said, "do something about it."	21:19
Joseph Henry	He said, "Now, I'm not going to tell y'all what to do." He said, "But whatever y'all do," he said, "y'all do something." So we decided one night we was sitting down in the tree. One of the guys said, "Well, if they call themself the Nickel Gang, then let's call ourself the Change Gang." We just called ourself the Penny Gang, see?	21:53
Kate Ellis	The Penny Gang?	22:21
Joseph Henry	The Penny Gang, uh-huh. It went on for a whole year. Boy, they would beat some of the guys up pretty bad, but nobody had the money to go to the hospital. And then we used to have a doctor that would come over sometime and check. They used to make house calls, most of the doctors.	22:28
Kate Ellis	I want to hear about that, but I'm going to just get one thing straight. The White gang would come in and beat up friends of yours?	22:50
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	22:56
Kate Ellis	I mean they were guys your age, right—	22:56
Joseph Henry	Yeah, but—	22:57
Kate Ellis	— I'm assuming they were picking on. You were maybe a young teenager?	22:57
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, they would just about pick on anybody.	23:01
Kate Ellis	Really?	23:03
Joseph Henry	Old or young.	23:03
Kate Ellis	Really?	23:06
Joseph Henry	Well, but the ladies, well, they didn't mess with the ladies.	23:07
Kate Ellis	But the old guys, young guys?	23:11
Joseph Henry	But the older guys and young guys.	23:11
Kate Ellis	Did the Penny Gang ever beat them back?	23:14
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well then, like I said, it went on for about a year. And then so one day—	23:16
Kate Ellis	Where they were coming in. Okay, sorry, go ahead.	23:22
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Because they would go to the city park. We had a curfew about 10:00. The city park would close. And then that's when the fight started. Most of the time, well, we had three movies over here. We had the Palace Theater, the Evangeline Theater, and the S&E Theater.	23:24
Kate Ellis	SNE?	23:48
Joseph Henry	S&E and The Palace and Evangeline Theater. Most of the people, they generally go to the movie. Those that work in the field, well, they had about three movies. I mean the picture showed three time a day. You'd start about 1:00 and about 1:30 or 2:30 you're out. The next one go from 2:30 to about 6:30. And then the next movie could start about 6:30 or say 7:00 until 10:00. See?	23:49
Joseph Henry	So what we done that night, we decided, well, it was time to put an end to it. So what we'd do, we saw one group to go to the movie early. And then we had another group. Everybody went to the movie. See? So the first group, well, a bunch of White guys were in the first group.	24:30
Kate Ellis	I'm not sure what you mean.	24:56
Joseph Henry	Yeah. See, well—	24:56
Kate Ellis	The White guys went to the movie?	24:56
Joseph Henry	Well, no, see, well, the Black—	25:00
Kate Ellis	The Black guys went to the movie.	25:00
Joseph Henry	Yeah, went to the movie. See, when they go to the movie, well, when the guys come from the city park, well, they have to come across the bayou bridge, you see, to come back on this side. So what we'd done one night, everybody went to the movie earlier.	25:01
Kate Ellis	All of your friends when you say everybody?	25:20
Joseph Henry	All my friends, yeah. All my friends went to the movie early. So what they done is said, "Well, what we'll do, we'll have —" Because they're always watching the last two groups, you see, the last two group of Blacks that go to the movie. See, that's the last group they catch. That's the group they would—	25:20
Kate Ellis	The Whites?	25:41
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	25:42
Kate Ellis	That's the group that the Whites beat up when they—	25:42
Joseph Henry	Beat Up. Uh-huh.	25:43
Kate Ellis	Okay. Oh, I see.	25:43
Joseph Henry	So what they've done now, so everybody went to the movie early. What we done, well, the bayou bridge is about, well, let's see, about as wide from that door to — Well, enough for two cars to pass on it if they had to pass. What we done, well, we decided that we'll send one group on one side of the bridge and the other Black group stay on the other side. The last group that left out of the movie, well, that was about 9:00.	25:46
Joseph Henry	Well, about that time, the city park is closed. Well, they had about maybe 30 or 40 Whites. That time, well, they had White girls in there, too. So one person went and called the Black girls and told them that they had White girls down there, too. They wanted to get into the fight, too.	26:28
Kate Ellis	The White girls did?	27:00
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Because one night, well, a White guy slapped a Black dude. Man, the police came, picked him up, and they beat him, see?	27:01
Kate Ellis	The police beat the White guy?	27:15
Joseph Henry	Beat the Black guy.	27:16
Kate Ellis	Who was slapped?	27:17
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	27:18
Kate Ellis	I thought you said the White guy slapped the Black guy?	27:18
Joseph Henry	Well, no. Well, you see what happened there, see — Well, no, this is something else. Well, before it was just only White guys. But then one night they had some White girls came along in the group, and they had this Black guy came and was coming down the bridge, on the bridge, and this White girl slapped him.	27:20
Kate Ellis	Oh, the White girl slapped him?	27:44
Joseph Henry	Uh-huh. She started hollering. So the police came and picked him up, see, and brought him out somewhere out in the country, gave him a good beating, and saw him home. So then the night the White girls and the White boys were coming from the city park. One of the Black guys went and called the girls. Well, they had the girls sidelined, see. So they decided, well, they came.	27:45
Joseph Henry	So we had some with the first group on one side of the bridge, some with the second group on the other side. Now the last group of guys now, I was one of the last group that came out of the movie. Well, we came across the bayou bridge, and all the White guys started running after us. So we ran back across the bridge. But instead of going all the way down the bridge, we stopped in the middle, see. They had about 30 or 40 White guys and girls in there.	28:29
Joseph Henry	We had about 35, counting the girls and the boys, Black. Well, when they got into the middle of the bridge, then all the groups, the first group that was on the left hand side of the bridge came up. The group on the right side came up, plus the group that I was in, and a fight started.	29:09
Kate Ellis	I bet.	29:37
Joseph Henry	A lot of the White were hollering. So the police came, but a lot of them had to jump in the bayou. You see?	29:40
Kate Ellis	A lot of who jumped in the—	29:51
Joseph Henry	The White guys.	29:53
Kate Ellis	They jumped in the bayou?	29:53
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah. You see, because the thing about it is we were people, especially across the bayou, it was nonviolent. If we did get into a fight, we always fight fair-fisted. Guys always search you to make sure you don't have a knife or you don't have a gun or anything. Now, if a person whipped you fair-fist, then the thing about it is, and he's the best man. You shake his hand, and then go to the store, get a soda water, and come back and drink soda water. See? Nobody was hurt.	29:54
Joseph Henry	But like I said, but when this girl slapped this Black dude and, man, we seen what the police done to him. So after the fight was over with on the bridge, they had about 15 or 20 White guy that jumped over in the bayou. But the bayou wasn't that deep because the water was about up to here, you see? Most of them got out. So then the police had about five cars for 35 Blacks. Now he put 35 people in five cars.	30:41
Kate Ellis	They did do that?	31:29
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah.	31:30
Kate Ellis	But the mayor had said to you—	31:38
Joseph Henry	Yeah, you see, but—	31:39
Kate Ellis	— you should defend yourselves. That's what he said, right?	31:39
Joseph Henry	Yeah. That's what he said. You see? One of the older White people that lived not too far from the bridge, and they called the mayor and told the mayor that they was taking his boys to jail, see? The mayor told the policeman to bring him down to his house.	31:41
Kate Ellis	Instead of to jail?	31:58
Joseph Henry	Instead of to jail, see? He told us. He said, "Now, what I want y'all to do —" They had about three or four policemen standing up. He told them. He said, "You go home." He said, "I'm going to take care of this." He said, "I didn't want y'all to fight. I didn't want y'all to do this." He said, "What I ought to do is send y'all to jail." So he told the policemen. He said, "I'll take care of them."	31:59
Joseph Henry	Man, so the police left us at the mayor house. Boy, the mayor, after he walked down the road, he seen the policemen turn the corner, came back, he said, "Y'all done a damn good job." He said, "I got some soda water for y'all." He said, "Y'all go get y'all some soda water and some cookies," and played some music for us. He said, "Y'all done a damn good thing." "Now," he said, "everybody going to respect y'all." See?	32:25
Joseph Henry	So then afterwards, we didn't have any more trouble with the White down there. Now the only trouble we had then again now was with our one color, the Blacks, because they didn't want downtown to come on this side, come uptown. They didn't want—	32:58
Kate Ellis	Downtown Blacks didn't want their kids to go to the uptown side?	33:24
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Because, well, you see the Black groups in uptown didn't like the Black groups from downtown because they were associating with the guys from across the bayou, see.	33:29
Kate Ellis	Who was associating with the guys across—	33:47
Joseph Henry	The guys from downtown, see. So they would come. We had a little club. A lot of the Black guys would come across. It wasn't no trouble. But then when the Black from here hear about that, they went across the bayou. Well, then you see now that's a fight.	33:49
Kate Ellis	Between uptown and downtown?	34:13
Joseph Henry	Downtown, uh-huh. But our group would go anywhere.	34:14
Kate Ellis	The across the bayou group?	34:21
Joseph Henry	Across the bayou group. Got to see a Little Brooklyn group. See, nobody bothered them, see, because—	34:23
Kate Ellis	So y'all didn't have a problem with the downtown group or the uptown group?	34:28
Joseph Henry	Uptown group.	34:31
Kate Ellis	But the uptown group and the downtown group had a problem with each other?	34:31
Joseph Henry	With other, uh-huh.	34:33
Kate Ellis	What was the problem that they had with each other?	34:34
Joseph Henry	Well, you see, everybody, even on this side, everybody would talk about the guys from across the bayou because everybody that knew the guys from Little Brooklyn, they knew they were well-respected, and they respected everybody. Sometime I'd catch myself, if I pass by a person and I know the person, I'm older than that person. Sometime I might catch myself saying, "Well, if they say something to me, oh, yes, ma'am, or no, sir."	34:36
Joseph Henry	But many years later, then when they started to integrate, then a lot of the people were saying, well, that was saying yes, ma'am, and no, ma'am, to people that you shouldn't have to say that.	35:20
Kate Ellis	To White people?	35:40
Joseph Henry	To White people or to anyone.	35:42
Kate Ellis	To anyone? You mean to Blacks?	35:46
Joseph Henry	To Blacks as well as to the White. When they say something, you either say yes or no.	35:47
Kate Ellis	As you were saying in the beginning, you and your neighbors were raised to say, "Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am," to anybody.	35:54
Joseph Henry	To anybody that's older than them.	36:02
Kate Ellis	Not just to Whites.	36:04
Joseph Henry	Not just to White.	36:06
Kate Ellis	Whites and Blacks.	36:06
Joseph Henry	Because the White would do the same thing, too, the kids. If a Black person would say something to them, it's, "Yes, sir," or, "No, sir."	36:10
Kate Ellis	The White kids?	36:19
Joseph Henry	The White kids, some of the young one, 18 and 19 years old, they would say, "Yes, sir," or, "No, ma'am," see. Because if they didn't say that, they would have the same rod or whipping that we had—	36:20
Kate Ellis	The Whites?	36:41
Joseph Henry	— from the grandmother all the way back to your mother. And then, like I said, but after the new group started moving in, well, then that's when things were much rougher because there, well, you had to always go in a group. In time, well, we had to carry knives or carry sticks or carry rocks in our pocket.	36:41
Kate Ellis	Because of the Whites that had moved in?	37:06
Joseph Henry	Because of the White. Yeah. You see, because a lot of them, they didn't like the idea of having us in the neighborhood because of those three streets, many years ago, they tried to get the Blacks out of that neighborhood.	37:08
Kate Ellis	The Whites did?	37:29
Joseph Henry	The White did, uh-huh.	37:29
Kate Ellis	What? Scare them out? Buy them out?	37:30
Joseph Henry	Scare them out or run them out. We had a mayor from across the bayou. His name was Mayor Diggs.	37:33
Kate Ellis	Mayor Diggs?	37:42
Joseph Henry	Diggs, uh-huh.	37:46
Kate Ellis	Diggs	37:47
Joseph Henry	Diggs.	37:49
Kate Ellis	Oh, okay.	37:50
Joseph Henry	Let see. I can't—	37:52
Kate Ellis	That's right. That's fine.	37:54
Joseph Henry	Yeah. So he told the Blacks at that particular time that he wanted them to move out of that neighborhood, you see, because they wanted the Blacks to move out into another area, you see?	37:54
Kate Ellis	Was this in the '50s?	38:11
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, this was before the '50s. Down in the '30s and '40s.	38:14
Kate Ellis	Oh, okay. Okay.	38:17
Joseph Henry	So what happened there, they had a White man that was staying in our neighborhood. He was staying with a Black lady. Well, he had a horse and a buggy, which when he found out that they were running the Blacks out, the mayor give the Blacks three weeks to get out.	38:22
Kate Ellis	Of your neighborhood?	38:53
Joseph Henry	Of our neighborhood. So this man here went to Baton Rouge on a horse and buggy. It took him two days to talk to Governor Huey P. Long. So Governor Huey P. Long told him not to worry, that he was going to straighten things out. So the mayor had the tractors and everything in the neighborhood to start knocking the houses down. But before he had a chance to knock the houses down, Governor Huey P. Long were waiting for him, see. They had the state patrol, city policemen.	38:53
Joseph Henry	The mayor told the tractor driver to go ahead and start knocking the houses down. Governor Huey P. Long walked in front of the tractor and told him. He said, "Now, if you want to run over somebody," he said, "you run over me." He asked the city policeman who they work for, and he said he worked for the mayor. He asked the state patrol. He said, "Who you work for? The state patrol said they work for the governor, see?	39:48
Joseph Henry	So he told the state patrol that he is taking over, that they work for him and if they didn't want to work for him to take their badges off, take their gun off and, pardon the expression, and get ass your out, see? So all of them stood back, you see? And then he told the city policemen, he said, "Now you are working for me now." And he said, "Now, if you don't like it," he said, "you do the same thing I told state patrol. If they want to work for me, they're going to do what I say do."	40:21
Joseph Henry	So he told him. He said, "Now —" He told the mayor. They already had about 2 or 300 White people in that neighborhood, see, because they were glad that the houses would be knocked down, see? The governor told the people. He said, "What I want you to do," he said, "I'm going to turn my back." He said, "When I turn around," he said, "I better not see a soul here, no more than a city policeman and a state patrol."	41:04
Joseph Henry	Man, he turned his back. When he turned his back and turned around, what, in 15 minutes, you couldn't find a person.	41:42
Kate Ellis	When was this? Around when was this that this happened? That's incredible.	41:55
Joseph Henry	Yeah. That was in the '30s. That's happened in the '30s, that. And then like I—	42:00
Kate Ellis	That was in your neighborhood?	42:06
Joseph Henry	In my neighborhood, uh-huh.	42:07
Kate Ellis	The houses were—	42:08
Joseph Henry	because—	42:08
Kate Ellis	Go ahead. I'm sorry.	42:09
Joseph Henry	Yeah. So the houses were left intact. The governor, well, before he passed the law, he was killed. Huey P. Long was killed. Then his brother, Earl K. Long, came in and passed a law saying that since the Blacks was in that neighborhood first, that if anybody had to leave, it would be the White, you see? So from that time on, the law is on the book right now that Little Brooklyn or Freetown, it's a little city of its own. Like I said, it's just three streets.	42:10
Joseph Henry	And then some years later, they had some people that moved in the back of the Black houses, and they called the mayor and told him about a lot of guys were making noise. That time, well, we were old enough to drink wine, so we used to drink muscatel wine, see. But after that, the White people started calling the mayor and told the mayor that they wanted us to stop making noise or they wanted us to quit doing this and quit doing that, wanted us to move. So the mayor told them the only one that will move, it would be them, you see?	42:57
Kate Ellis	Let me ask you something because you mentioned a little while ago about how when people were getting beat up by Whites, there was a doctor who'd come over and help people.	43:53
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, we had doctors. Just about every one of the doctors used to make house calls. They used to make house calls then.	44:07
Kate Ellis	Do you remember the doctors that would come to your neighborhood?	44:14
Joseph Henry	Well, we had Dr. Sabatri.	44:17
Kate Ellis	Dr. Sabatri?	44:17
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Dr. Scoggin. Dr. Dorsey.	44:19
Kate Ellis	Now, Sabatri, was he White?	44:38
Joseph Henry	Yeah, he was White.	44:47
Kate Ellis	He was White, but the other ones were Black?	44:47
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Then, well, we used to have a lot of the Whites come, too. We had Dr. Weeks. Then he used to come around. They even had Dr. Bullier used to come.	44:48
Kate Ellis	Dr. Bullier?	45:08
Joseph Henry	Yeah, he used to make house calls.	45:11
Kate Ellis	But do you remember when the Black doctors were run out of town?	45:13
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah. Well, they were run out of town in the early '50s. Because of that, what they done, we opened the West End Park.	45:17
Kate Ellis	The what?	45:32
Joseph Henry	West End Park.	45:33
Kate Ellis	West End?	45:36
Joseph Henry	— for the Black. It was opened up in the Black neighborhood. The city councilman wanted to put White over the park, and the Black did not. They feel like a Black should take care of the Black neighborhood. A lot of the White people, well, didn't like that because those doctors there — Well, like Dr. Dorsey, they had people that owned Avery Island. Used to have Coleman Avery. Now, his wife was a nurse, and she was working for the city for the welfare.	45:37
Joseph Henry	If a Black person is sick or something and they needed a doctor, they would call her, and her and Dr. Dorsey would go to the patient house. Sometime a lot of the White people didn't like that, see? But now, the Coleman Averys and McIlhennys, they were people that they were more for the Blacks and helping the Blacks than some of the Whites, see, because we had a lot of Whites that they didn't care. They didn't care if you were laying in the middle of the street dying, they'll spit on you.	46:26
Kate Ellis	The White doctors?	47:20
Joseph Henry	No, I mean not the White doctors. I mean some of the Whites—	47:22

Kate Ellis	The White? You mean like the McIlhennys, the Averys?	0:04
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, you see—	0:05
Kate Ellis	They would help you? You're saying they would do anything for the Black?	0:05
Joseph Henry	For the Blacks to help, because—	0:10
Kate Ellis	They didn't care as much about the Whites?	0:11
Joseph Henry	Well, I mean, they cared about the White but a lot of the White didn't care about them because— Like on Avery Island, McIlhenny would hire nothing but Blacks on there, on the island. See, because they had the Tabasco peppers, then they had the garden the McIlhennys built. Now, he had a lot of Blacks working there, you see, and most of the White didn't like that because of those people, let's say, they would hire something like two or 300 people, see? Blacks. And some of them there year round, and some of them just during the pepper season, and that's about all they were growing there, just pepper. And then you had a wild game reservoir, right? And nobody could go on there to kill the animals. Now, once the animal will get on Avery Island, on that particular area, nobody wouldn't touch it, see?	0:12
Kate Ellis	So anyway, but you were just saying that, I'm trying to just trace what you're saying, so as far as the doctors being run out town, you're saying it was because—?	1:32
Joseph Henry	Yeah, because of Western Park. You see, because the White were thinking that since they were doctors, that people, the Black, would follow them if they was to say, "We'll boycott, or we would do this—" They feel like the Black would more. They figured, "Well, if the doctor would say, 'everybody get a gun and go kill somebody.'" They believed the Black would follow them if they was to say that.	1:46
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	2:25
Joseph Henry	So what they'd done, they figured, well, by getting rid of them, and then that would put a scare in the Blacks.	2:28
Kate Ellis	I see. Yeah.	2:34
Joseph Henry	So—	2:37
Kate Ellis	Then how did that get to the part about the Averys and the McIlhennys? Just that those families—	2:37
Joseph Henry	Well, see those two families, now like Dr. Dorsey, like I was saying about him, see he was a Black dude, Black doctor. And Coleman Avery's wife was White, you see? And she was a nurse. And anytime a Black, I mean, Black or White, would call and she would go. She would go with the doctor, and a lot of the White people didn't like her, this White lady riding around with this Black doctor, see?	2:45
Kate Ellis	Oh, I see.	3:19
Joseph Henry	And again, so that was one of the reasons too, that they wanted to run him out of town, you see? Now they could have. Dr. Scoggin, now he was a Black doctor. Now, they knocked and went to his house and he was in bed when he went to his house, you see now they could have killed him, but what they'd done, they took him and made him put his clothes on, and they put him in his car and they drove his car outside of New Iberia, and they told him not to come back, see?	3:20
Joseph Henry	And Dr. Dorsey, well, when he find out that they were looking for him, well, he came and had almost all of his furniture taken out of his house. But all the rest of the Black doctors, well, they had to leave their furniture, leave their houses. And some of them had real nice houses. And like Dr. Dorsey, well he took most of his furniture and stuff out, and whatever he couldn't take with him he left.	4:05
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	4:32
Joseph Henry	But what all about 15 years later, some of the people, the city councils, decided to try to get him to come back, you see? But he didn't want to come back no more, see? He wouldn't come back.	4:36
Kate Ellis	Hmm. Yeah, right.	4:55
Joseph Henry	But like I said though, again, to go back there to see Ku Klux Klan? Well, we never had any of those to worry about. Well, maybe. Say, like in Louisville, St. Martinville, where we had maybe lynching in there, but over here we hardly ever had any lynching. Maybe they were taken with you, but they weren't— But to say, to kill you? I mean, we had nobody that was really killed. But other than that, it was pretty good. And then when Martin Luther King started integrated, then that's when a lot of the White people, up till today, they still don't like to be associated with you. They don't even like to be close by you, and they don't even, like I said, if they see you drinking at the fountain area, they wouldn't even go nearby, see?	5:01
Kate Ellis	To this day?	6:10
Joseph Henry	To this day, see?	6:11
Kate Ellis	Let me just ask you something about something you said a while ago, you were saying that at least when you were younger, prejudice wasn't so bad in your neighborhood, but it was worse on this side side of Bayou.	6:17
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	6:29
Kate Ellis	Why is that? Was it because more Whites and Blacks lived near each other, or—?	6:30
Joseph Henry	Well, what happened was they, in the sense of— Well, let's put it this way, a lot of the Whites, they wasn't able to come into Black clubs. And we had two streets that was the red light districts.	6:35
Kate Ellis	What were those?	7:03
Joseph Henry	Persian and West Avenue. And now they had a lady there, well, she ran a prostitute ring. She was Black.	7:04
Kate Ellis	Who was that?	7:21
Joseph Henry	The lady? They called Black Dorothy.	7:22
Kate Ellis	Black Dorothy?	7:25
Joseph Henry	She was Black, but they called her Black Dorothy. Now, we used to have a lot of the rich people with pretty good money that used to go and visit her. She had about maybe 14, maybe 15 girls that worked for her, but she had her own rooms and everything right there. See, so she wasn't [indistinct 00:07:58]. Sometimes they would go and pick the girls up, the man, whoever he is, go pick the girl up and take her wherever he got to go and then bring her back, see? And now that, a lot of the poor White, like I said, the poor White, they didn't care about it. You see, because a lot of them didn't have the money, because I think those girls would go for something like 15, 25 or $50.	7:26
Kate Ellis	Wow.	8:31
Joseph Henry	And that was money, and that lady there she was making all kind of money.	8:33
Kate Ellis	So the poor Whites couldn't get in?	8:42
Joseph Henry	Couldn't get in. So then that's where the most of your problem was, with the poor White, because they were saying that this lady here was making money. And then again, when you look at Avery Island, they would give most of the Blacks jobs. Mostly during the pepper season, and that was during the harvesting. Well, sometime they might have something like 300 people working.	8:43
Kate Ellis	Wow.	9:17
Joseph Henry	See, and then— Well, right now, I think they don't have as many as they used to have, because right now, McIlhenny died, Coleman Avery died. But again, now, if a Black person would get into trouble, all they had to do was to get to Avery Island. And when they get to Avery Island, this man McIlhenny, had a private gate that had a guard on that gate that once the Black dude, the Black man or Black lady get across that line, the police can't come and touch him, see? One time, they had a Black guy that got into some trouble and he made it to Avery Island, and they had about four or five policemen and had about a truckload of Whites that wanted to bring him back, wanted to get him. And McIlhenny told them that the only way that they'll come on his property is if they'd be a dead body, see?	9:18
Kate Ellis	Wow, so—	10:44
Joseph Henry	So—	10:45
Kate Ellis	Go ahead. I'm sorry.	10:46
Joseph Henry	What? Ask your question.	10:48
Kate Ellis	What kind of trouble might that man be in that the Whites would want to get him?	10:50
Joseph Henry	Well, you see sometimes if you pass by a White man and he tells you and he actually talks to you, and you don't say, "Yes, sir" to him? You see now, the first thing he'd want to do is slap you, and nobody want to be slapped. And so the guy hit the man, see? Hit the man back, and so he had a truckload of his friends. They was talking about they was going to teach the nigger a lesson. And so the guy got a chance to get to Avery Island, and then—	11:00
Kate Ellis	McIlhenny was protective of him?	11:29
Joseph Henry	Yeah, well, he was on his property. He makes his own law, you see? Now, he have this gate and said, "Nobody go in there." Not even a policeman can go on his property because that's private property. And somehow, the law give him that right to protect his property, and so the police came there one day to get him, and he told the policeman that the only way he'll get him is when either they come and get him if they want him, but then there'll be a lot of them being taken to funeral homes. And so they man pressed charges against the Black dude, see? This Black man. And the police, so McIlhenny told them to call the judge and told the judge, "How much was the bond?" You see? And so the man said the bond was $500.	11:34
Joseph Henry	So he paid the bond. He told the police, told the judge, that he would bring him to court. And so they had to go to face court about nine o'clock that morning. And he came there in the wagon, a horse-drawn wagon, and he had 16 men in there. All of them with Winchesters.	12:44
Kate Ellis	McIlhenny did?	13:08
Joseph Henry	Yeah, all of them with Winchesters, and had this Black guy, went into court, and the White guy said that the Black guy was sassing him and hit him, see? And so the judge asked— So McIlhenny asked him, he said, "Now, why you think he hit you?" So the guy said, "Well, you know how that nigger sassy." So the man told him, he said, "Well—" He said, "What he said?" So one of the guys said, "Yeah, he said that man was talking to him and he said, and told the man, 'Yeah.' He said the man got mad and slapped him."	13:08
Joseph Henry	He said, "What happened?" So the guy said, "He hit him back." So McIlhenny said, "Well, if the man hit him back—" He said, "Well, what you call that judge?" The judge told the man, he said, "He hit you and hit him back?" Case threw out, see? And from then— But after that, they was always after him. I mean, trying to get him. So they decided, McIlhenny took him out, brought him to Lafayette and give him a ticket, and told him not to come back. And so that was the only trouble there that somebody would— Well see, if the men, I guess if they would've caught him, they would've killed him. See?	13:56
Kate Ellis	Mm-hmm.	14:52
Joseph Henry	But that was averted. And then again, so that was that.	14:53
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	15:04
Joseph Henry	And we never had that problem again, see?	15:04
Kate Ellis	Let me just ask you a little bit, just to get up bit, you had eight or nine brothers and sisters?	15:09
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	15:15
Kate Ellis	Nine brothers and sisters. And your mom, did your mom do domestic work then?	15:17
Joseph Henry	Yeah, domestic.	15:22
Kate Ellis	And your dad worked in a press shop?	15:23
Joseph Henry	Yeah, he worked in the— Well, he worked in the pressing shop, again, I would call that day season, but then he used to work in the keen field, he used to cut keen.	15:25
Kate Ellis	Oh, he did? Okay.	15:46
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	15:46
Kate Ellis	That's what I was wondering.	15:46
Joseph Henry	Yeah, in that time, well, we had to cut keen with the keen knife.	15:46
Kate Ellis	Yeah. So did you and your brothers and sisters help him in the field?	15:49
Joseph Henry	No, he wouldn't let us.	15:54
Kate Ellis	So none of you worked in the field?	15:55
Joseph Henry	None of us worked in the field.	15:56
Kate Ellis	Wow.	15:58
Joseph Henry	Yeah. See, because, and then, like I said, in that time, they were making about what? 50 cents a day?	15:58
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	16:07
Joseph Henry	Working seven days a week. And then at the end of seven days, you can imagine how much money they had.	16:08
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	16:16
Joseph Henry	But in that time though, things were so cheap. You could go to the store and get a steak for 10 cents. My mother would go get a nickel worth of rice, and you had a bag about like that for a nickel, see?	16:16
Kate Ellis	I mean, y'all were able to get by.	16:37
Joseph Henry	Yeah, to get by on whatever my mother and daddy made. And then too, they had a golf course, and we used to go on the golf course. Now, on the golf course where we used to caddy, and they would pay us something like a nickel a round, and that was about— You had to walk a mile and a quarter and the course was a nine hole, and well, we'd generally do that. Well, most of the people generally played about 18 holes and well, that was about a dime plus a nickel tip. So that was 15 cents. And so now we would give our mother a dime and we'd keep a nickel.	16:40
Kate Ellis	You had a nickel. So you all, when you're old enough, pitched in? I mean, you've got jobs and— Is that right?	17:33
Joseph Henry	Yeah. So we helped too in that way. Well, like I said, when we were old enough to work. Well, my oldest brother, Herbert, well he used to work on the golf course, then he left from there and he went to start working for Woodworth putting pipeline and gas line.	17:41
Kate Ellis	Woodworth?	18:14
Joseph Henry	Yeah, and water lines. And then he went to service, and then after he came out— But then we moved from across The Bayou to on this side.	18:14
Kate Ellis	Oh. So when did you move on this side?	18:36
Joseph Henry	About '40, '47. Around '47, 1947.	18:37
Kate Ellis	But what street did you move to?	18:44
Joseph Henry	We moved on Rene Street.	18:46
Kate Ellis	Can you spell that?	18:46
Joseph Henry	Rene. R-E-N-E.	18:49
Kate Ellis	Oh, okay.	18:50
Joseph Henry	Rene Street.	18:53
Kate Ellis	Why'd you move?	18:56
Joseph Henry	Well, we had family property. Like I said, the family had property on my daddy's side and we had to rent, and so my brother came out of service. Well, the house, my mother and them living in now, that house cost about what? $3,000 at that time. And so I was doing a little work, doing yard work, my other brother was doing yard work, and so we decided to get together and get that house. So we had saved something like about $300 with $300 down, and we went to the bank, out there we received a loan and borrowed the rest. And it took us about what? Almost 14 years to pay for it.	19:01
Kate Ellis	Was it hard to get a loan from the bank? Were they—? I mean—	20:00
Joseph Henry	Well, no. Well—	20:02
Kate Ellis	Did they discriminate as far as lending?	20:02
Joseph Henry	Well, no. Well, kind of. When my brother came out, he had the G.I. law, see? And so if the bank didn't lend it to me, he could have went to the federal government. But the bank, well, it wasn't that hard because we used to deal more or less with the [indistinct 00:20:26] loan, see?	20:06
Kate Ellis	Oh, so they already knew your family?	20:26
Joseph Henry	Yeah. So we had some of the good friends of the family that was working there, they were White, and so they would give us a good reference and oh, we did so well, we had good reference because wherever we went to or wherever we borrowed something, we always paid it back. Or if we had to say we were going to do something, we always did it because my dad always make sure you had our word, and we stuck by it. Again, and then being home across The Bayou, everybody knew everybody across The Bayou, you see?	20:28
Kate Ellis	And was respected? I see.	21:16
Joseph Henry	It was that way.	21:16
Kate Ellis	And so you said that your family had property?	21:22
Joseph Henry	Well, my daddy had property, but the thing about it is we had so many heirs on it. When my daddy's mother, well, his auntie passed away, she had one daughter. And so we tried to bill on it to fix it up, but the other kids on my daddy's side didn't want it, see? Didn't want my mother or my father to have it, because somehow they didn't like my mother. You see? Because my daddy, well, he taught himself to read and to write. See, he went to school about two years, but he was a very a knowledgeable person. And so his mother then wanted him to marry somebody that had a little money or something, and so my mother, well, she was poor. And so when he married her, and then everything started going the other way, you see?	21:24
Kate Ellis	See the family kind of turned against him?	22:57
Joseph Henry	The family kind of turned against him. And so right now across The Bayou, we have, what? About two acres of land, and we have what? Six? Well, we had six heirs to it. Right now, the heirs is cutting down right now, I think they got about two left.	22:59
Kate Ellis	Oh, dear. Right.	23:23
Joseph Henry	But—	23:25
Kate Ellis	By cutting down, you mean—?	23:26
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, on my daddy's side.	23:28
Kate Ellis	You mean they're dying?	23:30
Joseph Henry	Yeah. So I figured, "Well, like my mother said, she don't care about it." But as long as they're paying the tax, so nobody not living on it.	23:31
Kate Ellis	I see.	23:47
Joseph Henry	We—	23:48
Kate Ellis	And that's in New Iberia?	23:48
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	23:50
Kate Ellis	That's across the—?	23:50
Joseph Henry	Close by in little Brooklyn.	23:51
Kate Ellis	I see. So I was trying to get a sense, so you came up with your brothers and sisters, and you'd get up early in the morning?	23:52
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah.	24:02
Kate Ellis	And then you'd go to school, and then now you said that you left school to go to join the service?	24:03
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	24:11
Kate Ellis	How old were you when you joined the service?	24:12
Joseph Henry	About what? About 17, 18.	24:14
Kate Ellis	And why did you decide to join the service?	24:21
Joseph Henry	Well, the thing about it is— Well, my mother and my father, well, to say something about him, he was working one day digging a grave, and he stuck to a nail off of one of the coffins, had a nail sticking up, and he stepped on it, and then— Well, I'll say, both foot, and it was kind of hard for him to work. And my mother, well, she had suffered with her legs and it was kind of hard for her to do it too. So we decided. So my oldest brother decided to go on account of that, and I decided too.	24:24
Kate Ellis	I see.	25:18
Joseph Henry	To help send money back, so it'd help them, see? Where they didn't have to, because they had nine, well, seven kids, still at the house and all that was to help them.	25:18
Kate Ellis	I see. That's right. You were the second oldest.	25:39
Joseph Henry	Second oldest, uh-huh.	25:39
Kate Ellis	So it made sense for you and your oldest brother to join the service and get some money to send back home.	25:39
Joseph Henry	Yeah, that's right. Had the [indistinct 00:25:45].	25:43
Kate Ellis	And so you left high school early to do that?	25:45
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, yeah. I left, what? About around '50, during the 50s. I was in, what? About ninth grade when I left. I came back and finish in '56. Yeah.	25:47
Kate Ellis	Nice, and you fought on the Korean conflict?	26:10
Joseph Henry	Yeah, I was a Korean veteran. Yeah.	26:15
Kate Ellis	Wow.	26:18
Joseph Henry	Yeah, almost. Well, I missed the Vietnam deal because I was too old for that. Too old for that.	26:22
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	26:28
Joseph Henry	But I guess I was planning on making a career of the military, but most of the time I was in a outfit where the Black couldn't get promoted, and it was done before— Well, let's say this about every time something happens, they had a White guy from Mississippi that was our commanding officer, and well, he didn't care too much about Blacks. And they had our master sergeant, we had a master sergeant that was White. And he told me, he said, "Well, he went on vacation", And when the time come for a rank, for a promotion, well, I was bypassed, you see? And most of the Black were bypassed, and they had to give it two White guys now that just had came in our company, they was given promotion, see? And so every time trouble comes in our outfit, our outfit was always the one that they were sent out, see?	26:29
Kate Ellis	You mean when trouble came in, you deployed?	27:53
Joseph Henry	Well see, right after the Korean conflict, you see now, let's say, like we had at Grenada?	27:56
Kate Ellis	Mm-hmm.	28:02
Joseph Henry	Well, something like that happens. I figured they might have a shooting war or something, well, we was always the first group to go in and shoot.	28:03
Kate Ellis	To send down?	28:15
Joseph Henry	To send out, you see? Because there—	28:16
Kate Ellis	Where were you stationed during the Korean conflict?	28:18
Joseph Henry	Well see, when I first went in, I was stationed at Fort Bliss, Texas. Texas, and then we left from Fort Bliss, Texas, we went to Fort Lewis, Washington. And from there, I was shipped out to Korea. We stopped in Sasebo, Japan, and then from there we were shipped to Incheon in South Korea. And then after that, well— After I got out, after we were shipped home, well, I had a chance to stop in about what? 46 countries during that time over about a three-year period. Then I was shipped at Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. And that's where I was discharged at right there.	28:24
Kate Ellis	I see. But it was because you could see that the Blacks were being bypassed in the army, that you decided that that was not going to be—?	29:35
Joseph Henry	Yeah, that's the truth, so I decided to get out and come back. And then that's when I decided, "Well—" I came back and finished high school. Then that's when I went to Tuskegee.	29:53
Kate Ellis	I see.	30:05
Joseph Henry	And that's where I met my wife, out in Tuskegee.	30:07
Kate Ellis	Huh. Oh, there's something, speaking of schooling, that you had said, now you went to a segregated school, I mean, elementary school, high school?	30:13
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	30:22
Kate Ellis	But you had said it wasn't a law that it'd be segregated or—?	30:24
Joseph Henry	No, there wasn't a law. There wasn't no law saying it was segregated, child. We segregated ourselves.	30:27
Kate Ellis	What do you mean by that?	30:37
Joseph Henry	Well, the thing about it is, even though we played with the White, but you feel better when you're in your own group, and that's what happened. Because we could have went to the White school if we wanted to, but then we decided to be in your own group, and there you felt better. And so this is one of the reasons why, you see? That's why in other words, you could say we segregated ourselves.	30:38
Kate Ellis	Oh, I see.	31:27
Joseph Henry	You see? But if there was a law, but then what happened too, you see now since segregated, like the White schools, they had different trades, but the Black school? Well, we didn't have any trades at all, see? We didn't. They had trades from the White, when they'd go from first grade all the way up to 12th grade, they had a trade. Either automobile, mechanic, welding, or electrician, but in our school, well, we didn't have anything until the late 50s. We had woodcraft and leathercraft, and agriculture. But for trades, we didn't have nothing in trades at all.	31:28
Joseph Henry	And that's what made, again, a lot of the Blacks, I mean, felt like even though they paid tax and we done everything that was possible, but the thing about it is when you take a look at it, and then the White could get jobs, where are the Black? Well, they had to either get a job at doing housework or do a job working in the field, but to see either get a job working in an office? Man, there wasn't no such thing, you see?	32:23
Kate Ellis	Jealous in a way.	33:12
Joseph Henry	And that's the truth. Then when you get to know—	33:14
Kate Ellis	Just hold that thought.	33:18
Joseph Henry	Yeah.	33:19
Kate Ellis	Don't forget anything. So sorry, you were just going to say—	33:20
Joseph Henry	Yeah, and then too, what happened? See, that was one of the reasons why a lot of the Blacks, especially on this side, and also across The Bayou, felt that they didn't want to give us a chance to make more money because, what? To work in the field, that was about 50 cents a day. When you work in the housework, it's about what? 25 cents an hour or a dollar a day. And so this year was one of the things that made the younger Blacks feel that they had been betrayed on account of that, and I think that's the reason why. When they started to integrate, a lot of the older Blacks, well, like I said, they time was just about up, but the younger guys that came up, but now they took it real hard, you see? Because then that's when they started to get better assets for better schools, different trades. And right now, most of the schools now, they keep having a trade.	33:22
Joseph Henry	But in that time, only the White was able to get a trade. Now, if they had an auto mechanic, you see, now the only thing we seen about an auto mechanic is when you hear somebody say about an auto mechanic, and we couldn't, at least. Well, very few Blacks had cars, very few. But see, the thing about too, where is the—? Well, let's say the generation now, I'm not talking about my generation, but the generation now, right now, since integration, they've given them a wide field of things to go into, but now we have what? Grambling and Southern.	35:05
Joseph Henry	Now those two schools, the only thing that came out of the schools were either football players or very few basketball players. But football players were one of the biggest thing that Grambling and Southern would produce, because I could name a couple of them, like we had guy by the name of Ernie Ladd. Now he was one of the Grambling players. And then we had— What his name is again? Robinson. He was the most winnable coach in football. And so with those two, but to say, "Well, when a Black person finished college that they were sure of a job." They wasn't that sure of a job, see?	36:01
Kate Ellis	Right.	37:07
Joseph Henry	But now, like I said, to go back to Tuskegee, now when a person finished out of Tuskegee, all they had to [indistinct 00:37:17] name, because even President Roosevelt and his wife used to go to Tuskegee, you see? And that's what made Tuskegee such a school, so when you finished at Tuskegee, you're sure you had a job. See, because when you finished at Tuskegee, at that particular time, you was an all around student, you see? I mean, you can fit anywhere.	37:10
Joseph Henry	Now at Grambling and Southern? Well, in the last past what? 20 years? 20 or 30 years? It began to be an all around school, because once in time, you couldn't get that many Black teachers, because once the Black teacher finished, a teacher, I mean, a student had finished in teaching, finished, it was hard for them to get a school, I mean, in order to get a job. Now, the field is— They got more teachers right now than you can shake a stick at, and one of the things there, that's what makes it now. Right now, the only thing that's pretty wide open right now is computer, because everybody is going into computer.	37:44
Kate Ellis	Well, let me have— I guess it's sort of a good place to just about wrap. Everything you've said has been so interesting. I'll just finish by saying, is there anything else, just briefly, that stands out about sort of us coming up here that's—?	38:45
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, the thing that stands out to us, one of the most important thing, especially in my neighborhood, little Brooklyn, that there wasn't a time or place that if you needed something, everybody in that neighborhood would help. Even when killing the hog, you had White and Black, they would all come together. And even though sometimes you had more people there to see what's going on than they did helping, but what the people would do, they would cook a big meal and then everybody would get a chance to get something. \	39:21
Joseph Henry	And not too long ago, I was talking with one of the people that used to live across The Bayou, and they were saying that, "It's funny on how things have changed." We all used to, being across there, everybody would help each other, but now he say, "It looks like everybody is pulling away." It's Blacks and White once in time. If they had a dance or something, everybody was there, but now you give a dance or sometimes we used to give a little house party, and we had everybody that wanted to come would come.	40:19
Joseph Henry	But right now, it look like everybody is afraid of everybody, and being afraid of everybody is one of the— It's what pulling people away from the things that they should do. And again, sometime, you see people on the street, you're afraid to say something to them, because the first thing, they think you're a— Well, when you take a look, most of you, I know you watch a lot of movies and you hear a lot of people say, "When you pass by somebody White, and the funny thing you notice, they got their pocketbook and they try to put it under the other arm, because they figure, 'Well, here that nigger, he going to steal my purse.'" But then it's not only that, it's White. Black is doing the same thing too. You pass by him, and the first thing they say, "Well, you going to steal this, or you going to take my purse, or you going to do this."	41:14
Joseph Henry	And this is one of the things that is so hard for people. And what I think too, it's when they got away from being respectable as a whole. Right now, even in the schools, well, we used to have prayers in school, now they took that away. There was a time, if you was to do something— I remember one time, I had thrown the eraser at a girl and the principal caught me, and they had, in the coatroom, where we used to put your coat at, and oh, this lady here made me pull my pants down, see? And she gave me one of the best beating I've ever had. But I wouldn't tell my mother or daddy about it because I would get the same thing, see?	42:31
Kate Ellis	They were, "Why'd you throw that eraser at that girl?"	43:37
Joseph Henry	Oh, yeah. But now you see, they took all that away. You can't whip a kid because here people have, well some, have abused the kids in such a way that they have to have some kind of law. But yet still, I think if a person would train their kids, mothers and fathers, stop spending time in the clubs. Well see, that's one of the reasons why we never did get into any kind of clubs, because what happened it would've took away the fun of raising your kids. See, right now your kids are raising kids. You see, not too long ago, a lady left her kids in a house, I think what? Three of them was tied up, huh?	43:39
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	44:39
Joseph Henry	But back when we were coming up, our mother and father was right there when we need them.	44:42
Kate Ellis	And it sounds like your neighbors were too.	44:48
Joseph Henry	Yeah, the neighbors too.	44:49
Kate Ellis	And if you had hard times then they'd help you out and if they had hard times, you'd help them out.	44:51
Joseph Henry	We'd help them out, see? So, like I said again, we haven't so far, right? In New Iberia, like I said, we haven't had nobody being lynched, just whipped and we didn't have anything to worry about the Ku Klux Klan because the White, even though they hate you, but not one of them would get into the Klans or anything, no they'll try to beat you themselves. But to say, to have an organization, where they ride at night like they done in Mississippi? Well, we never had nothing like that. So there's one of the things that I say, "If I could live my life over again, I think I would live it back in my old neighborhood."	44:56
Kate Ellis	Yeah, yeah. Wow. Well, on that note, I feel like I should let you have dinner.	46:00
Joseph Henry	Yeah, well—	46:05
Kate Ellis	And get out of your house, but thank you so much.	46:05
Joseph Henry	Yeah. Well, okay. I appreciate it.	46:10
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	46:11
Joseph Henry	And like I said, if there's any—	46:11

Item Info

Title:

Joseph Henry interview recording, 1994 August 03

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4nk3jf1w

Date:

August 3, 1994

Creator:

Henry, Joseph

Contributor:

Ellis, Kate

Description:

Name: Joseph Henry; Date of birth: 1931-12-02; Place of birth: New Iberia, LA; Occupation(s): electrician's helper; Residence: New Iberia, LA
Informant ID: 628; Interviewed by: Kate Ellis.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1093
f1e9d6b1-1f8e-453e-8ebd-6e6f27263762
behindtheveil
9355cda8-398e-4dd5-bf8a-e253b54cc95f
ark:/87924/r4nk3jf1w
9355cda8-398e-4dd5-bf8a-e253b54cc95f

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Related Resources:

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Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Occupation:

Electrician

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Sound

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Joseph Henry interview recording, 1994 August 03

Transcript

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1. Joseph Henry administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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