Harrietta Jefferson interview recording, 1994 August 08

Download
- Rights
- Limited Re-Use
  CC BY-NC 4.0
  More Rights Info
- Files (2)
- MP3 Part 1
- MP3 Part 2
- Please be patient with media downloads. They are often large files.
Share

Embed Code
<iframe src='https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4br8zr45?embed=true' height='125px' width='100%' frameborder='0' marginwidth='0' marginheight='0' scrolling='no' loading='lazy' allowfullscreen></iframe>
Permalink

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4br8zr45
Skip to Item Info

Loading the media player...

Files for this Item

Transcript

Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.

Stacey Scales	How long have you lived in Tallahassee?	0:00
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I've lived in Tallahassee all my life. That's about 78 years.	0:00
Frazier Jefferson	And that's been married 60 years.	0:03
Tywanna Whorley	Whoa.	0:13
Frazier Jefferson	In that.	0:13
Tywanna Whorley	So same with you too? You've been here since you were born, in Tallahassee?	0:16
Frazier Jefferson	Mm-hmm, oh, yeah. This is my regular home.	0:19
Stacey Scales	How was it growing up here?	0:24
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, it was fantastic to me. My mother and father mostly lived on the farm. My daddy had a place down close to the town. We lived three miles from town then. And he had a place down there and we farmed.	0:27
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	That's where we grew up. We walked, when us left Raney School, we would walk to Lincoln School. Three miles, six miles a day, going and coming. Ain't no bus carry us.	0:42
Tywanna Whorley	Did you help out on the farm?	1:01
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Huh?	1:04
Tywanna Whorley	Did you help out on the farm with your father?	1:04
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. We helped out on the farm every day.	1:05
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember what you did?	1:08
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, pulled cotton, picked beans. We had got some banana plant and cotton and we had cotton and corn and plenty of cattle. We had to gather cow. Back in that time, people didn't really tie. You could tie your cows up, but then you could turn them loose in the weather. And they'd just go in and when we was done with school, had to go hunt those cows, gather them up, and bring them in. That was when they didn't have leash law. So when they made the law, you had to tie your cow. You couldn't do that. Most of us growing up, we could turn the cows loose in the weather, and they'd just go on about their business. But you had to give them what they needed.	1:16
Stacey Scales	Do you remember your grandparents?	2:04
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. I remember my grandmother. I don't remember granddaddy.	2:07
Stacey Scales	Do you remember any of the stories they used to tell or—	2:10
Tywanna Whorley	About their growing up? What went on during that time?	2:14
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No, not really, because my grandmother didn't really live with us. She'd just come to visit us once in a while. She'd come and visit us.	2:17
Tywanna Whorley	How far did she live from you?	2:27
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, at first she lived in Thomasville. And then after I married, she had moved to DeLand then. And we'd always have to go to DeLand to see her. Until that day she died. And we would go and visit her. But she didn't know nothing. Got more out of her daddy than did her, because her daddy raised my daddy.	2:29
Tywanna Whorley	Oh.	3:02
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. So probably know probably more than she did.	3:03
Stacey Scales	Did your father ever talk about his job? What did he do?	3:06
Tywanna Whorley	Farmer.	3:17
Stacey Scales	He was a farmer?	3:17
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He was a farmer later years. But when I first was six and seven years old, probably until I was about 12, he worked in Thomasville and he would walk to Thomasville and back.	3:18
Stacey Scales	Really? Every day?	3:29
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. He'd go to Thomasville and live with his mother before she moved away from Thomasville. And he'd do that then from Monday until Friday evening. Then he'd come home.	3:32
Stacey Scales	What would he do there? Work?	3:42
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He worked the sawmills in Thomasville at that time.	3:47
Stacey Scales	Did he ever talk about being treated unfairly or fair by the folks that owned the mill?	3:47
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. I don't think they felt they had to be treated that way, I imagine, in that time. You never did talk about it, you know? We know they didn't talk about how White folks treat Colored people, but I guess we thought you're Black and you're supposed to be treated that way. We never thought that was a leftover from slavery. You talk about his dad in slavery died.	3:55
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember what he said?	4:24
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. I didn't listen. No, I didn't listen too much. I remember, he would talk, and he would talk about how the boys, men would do to Colored people. I didn't listen, but I guess I was too fast and every kind of thing. I didn't listen too good. My sisters can remember more than me.	4:32
Tywanna Whorley	When did you know that there was a difference between Black folks and White folks? That certain things that you could do and couldn't do?	4:57
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, I knew that all the time. They'd tell us about that.	5:03
Tywanna Whorley	What they would tell you, in terms of growing up?	5:09
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, after Papa come home and Mama was cooking, she would go out and cook and come back and tell us about the people. But I never know much different, because the children would come out there and stay with us. And on the weekend, they would ask for their mama grocery and come out there to her, to my mama, because she had raised them. So they'd come out there and stay with her. And they'd come out there with loads of their mama grocery and all their clothes from Mama [indistinct 00:05:45]. And so we just thought they was White, and us was Black. At that time, people [indistinct 00:05:53] was working for.	5:10
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	They never thought of much slavery. Bible needs to tell us the different psalms that had slavery, slaves, and this master had his slaves and the other master had his. And so Granddad used to sit down and tell them stories about it, that they couldn't go visit from one farm to the other. They couldn't do that. They had to stay there.	5:53
Tywanna Whorley	When he talked about those experiences, was he upset? Or—	6:26
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Not my daddy, because he wasn't the one that said them.	6:30
Tywanna Whorley	Right.	6:31
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	But he talked about his granddaddy. He said his daddy. I don't think my daddy know much about his daddy, because his granddaddy raised him.	6:33
Tywanna Whorley	Right.	6:43
Stacey Scales	Did they talk about hanging people? Did they talk about that?	6:47
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, they'd talk about hanging people. I know Papa would say, he used to tell us about the first chair was a Black chair in Tallahassee. And I imagine when they got ready to get rid of him or something, they come to talk with him about something, and just come in. He was sitting down to his table. And he said they just came in and shot him in the mouth. He was sitting down to his table to eat, and instead of just firing him if they didn't want him or something like that, they just came in and—	6:50
Tywanna Whorley	And shot—	7:21
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	—shot him, shot him in the mouth, sitting to his table, eating [indistinct 00:07:32].	7:21
Stacey Scales	Do you remember any of those stories—	7:32
Frazier Jefferson	What's that?	7:46
Stacey Scales	—about anybody getting hung or hard times?	7:47
Frazier Jefferson	Oh, no.	7:50
Stacey Scales	Excuse me?	7:53
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He said yeah.	7:54
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	7:55
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Tell him. He wants you to tell him about it.	7:55
Frazier Jefferson	I hate being back there.	7:59
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, they want you to go back there.	8:01
Frazier Jefferson	Of course, it wasn't back in the '30s then. Only thing, this year, what I thank the Lord for me sitting here this morning. Because I was in a hand grenade, blowed up, killed her brother. And what that thing done for me, I had on a pair of boots, come about up along here, and that thing ripped it right off my foot.	8:02
Stacey Scales	Hand grenade?	8:35
Frazier Jefferson	A hand grenade.	8:35
Stacey Scales	This is here in the city?	8:37
Frazier Jefferson	What's that?	8:40
Stacey Scales	Was that in the city?	8:40
Frazier Jefferson	Yeah. It's sort of like a [indistinct 00:08:46] or something, when you [indistinct 00:08:49].	8:41
Stacey Scales	Yes, sir.	8:48
Frazier Jefferson	Just keep looking on the right—hand side. And just as you cross that little bridge there, [indistinct 00:08:57]. But in high water, where you can see. They didn't have another road going through there back then. But anyway, we took the day road and went down. And we were trying to get a horse up, me and the one guy killed, my brother—in—law, her brother. Just by the time we got the horse up, I bet it was—Was it six, I think? I know one thing, it was three or something got to me. Her brother got killed and died.	8:49
Stacey Scales	That was in the '30s?	9:35
Frazier Jefferson	No, no, no, no.	9:36
Stacey Scales	Oh.	9:37
Frazier Jefferson	This was [indistinct 00:09:38].	9:37
Stacey Scales	Oh, so okay.	9:37
Frazier Jefferson	I had it pretty fair in the '30s. Just look. Just look, one of the reasons why the Lord helps people to try [indistinct 00:09:38]. So I got a regular job [indistinct 00:09:38] and I got to it until I [indistinct 00:09:38]. They treated me nice. I didn't have no problem. They treated me nice. I was working for [indistinct 00:10:11].	9:37
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:10:14].	9:37
Frazier Jefferson	I worked in city hall, and if anybody wanted anything around in that city hall, you [indistinct 00:10:27]. So the people trusted me. Of course, that said, I needed another man to help me. I couldn't do it myself. But [indistinct 00:10:38] they needed to call me and [indistinct 00:10:46]. You talk to some of them guys you get on the job, get on and they don't know nothing. They just mess around. And they ain't going to look at the man messing around. They going to look at you, because you—	10:18
Tywanna Whorley	[indistinct 00:11:14].	11:10
Frazier Jefferson	—make a pretty good worker. I helped [indistinct 00:11:19]. Yeah, I did some deal.	11:10
Tywanna Whorley	Did you ever hear about any incidents between Black folks and White folks in Tallahassee?	11:25
Frazier Jefferson	Well, I think I have seen some.	11:28
Tywanna Whorley	Really?	11:31
Frazier Jefferson	But it didn't last long.	11:34
Stacey Scales	What did you see? You want to share any of them or no?	11:39
Frazier Jefferson	Huh?	11:42
Stacey Scales	You want to share any ones that you saw?	11:43
Frazier Jefferson	Oh, no, I didn't see [indistinct 00:12:01].	12:01
Stacey Scales	Right.	12:01
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:12:01].	12:01
Stacey Scales	Can I close the door?	12:01
Frazier Jefferson	Yeah.	12:02
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I was thinking about that.	12:02
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:12:07].	12:02
Tywanna Whorley	[indistinct 00:12:17].	12:02
Frazier Jefferson	Actually, I don't want to talk [indistinct 00:12:17]. Now that was back in the '30s, yeah.	12:02
Tywanna Whorley	Did they say why they [indistinct 00:12:23]?	12:02
Frazier Jefferson	Well, I really don't know. I don't know [indistinct 00:12:26].	12:02
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Just getting [indistinct 00:12:30] I remember one, too.	12:33
Stacey Scales	You remember?	12:36
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	But I can't remember why.	12:36
Tywanna Whorley	Why they hung him?	12:37
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. Now, what I remember—	12:38
Tywanna Whorley	With things like that, what happened? Did Black folks here in Tallahassee become scared in terms of basically watching their back when they heard someone was hanged?	12:42
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I don't think so. I never did hear it. We lived out in the country. And we didn't really call that three miles in the city then was in the country. So we really never did know.	12:57
Tywanna Whorley	So y'all got the news late?	13:12
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, yeah.	13:13
Tywanna Whorley	Y'all got the news late?	13:13
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	We would get the news late.	13:13
Stacey Scales	Was it the KKK, Ku Klux Klan? Or just anybody that—	13:18
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I remember just ordinary people, ordinary folks when those boys was killed. I don't think they really said it was Ku Klux Klan. I think they said it was just an ordinary gang of White folk got up and did that to those boys. That was after they drove that man. I remember, they drove that man in Quincy, put him behind the car. Now that was the Ku Klux. They say they did that.	13:24
Tywanna Whorley	They say what? Do you remember?	14:17
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No, I don't remember. I was very small then.	14:17
Tywanna Whorley	Yeah.	14:17
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	As we got older, they didn't do too much with it. Most people were fighting back.	14:17
Tywanna Whorley	Did you know any that did fight back?	14:17
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No.	14:20
Tywanna Whorley	No?	14:20
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I was still too small. I don't remember them doing it after we grew up. But when we were small, we'd see our mama and them talk about it. [indistinct 00:14:33].	14:21
Tywanna Whorley	When did y'all get married?	14:36
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	We got married in '34.	14:36
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:14:43].	14:36
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	In 1934.	14:47
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:14:51] got nine children.	14:50
Tywanna Whorley	How did y'all meet?	14:52
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, we just kind of grew up together.	14:56
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, okay.	14:56
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. We kind of grew up together. But I think we started mingling when I was about 14. I regularly saw the [indistinct 00:15:13].	15:02
Frazier Jefferson	In that long length of time, has you been pretty good?	15:14
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, shut up.	15:20
Frazier Jefferson	Well, they want to know how [indistinct 00:15:32].	15:31
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	[indistinct 00:15:32].	15:31
Frazier Jefferson	Well, I'm just saying, we had to wake up [indistinct 00:15:35]. So I think—	15:33
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Let me dust the vent.	15:36
Stacey Scales	You got married here in the city, Tallahassee?	15:39
Frazier Jefferson	What's that?	15:41
Stacey Scales	You got married in Tallahassee?	15:42
Frazier Jefferson	Oh, yeah.	15:44
Stacey Scales	Okay.	15:45
Frazier Jefferson	Yeah.	15:46
Tywanna Whorley	What church did you get married in?	15:47
Frazier Jefferson	Huh?	15:47
Tywanna Whorley	You remember the church you got married in?	15:47
Frazier Jefferson	St. Peter Church, right up the [indistinct 00:15:53]. That's where we [indistinct 00:15:53].	15:47
Tywanna Whorley	Oh.	15:47
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	We went to the Coal House in Mariner Church.	15:58
Frazier Jefferson	Oh. I forgot. They going to ask so much [indistinct 00:16:11] that churchyard and everything.	16:04
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He talking about we had a 50th anniversary.	16:14
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, at the church?	16:21
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And then we had—	16:24
Frazier Jefferson	Oh, okay. That's the picture from?	16:24
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	That picture is from the 50th anniversary.	16:25
Frazier Jefferson	Hmm.	16:25
Tywanna Whorley	Wow.	16:25
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:16:29].	16:25
Tywanna Whorley	How about the community that you lived in once you got married? Was it close—knit?	16:31
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, yeah, yeah.	16:37
Tywanna Whorley	Everybody washed up pretty well? Especially because you got married during the Depression.	16:39
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, I sure did.	16:43
Frazier Jefferson	Yeah.	16:43
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, I got married during the Depression. We weren't really living around nobody. We lived closer back to town. And we kind of sit off from everybody. The Colored people lived up this way, where we up now up this way. And we lived back down three miles from town. And it wasn't any Colored people much lived down there. We lived down there and we were by the old schoolteacher. We lived down by my first schoolteacher.	16:47
Stacey Scales	What was the name of the school?	17:20
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Raney.	17:21
Stacey Scales	Raney School?	17:22
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Uh-huh. Raney School, my first teacher was named Violet Martin. And we grew up there where she lived. We rented our first home from her. She had a little boy who had died. She had one little boy. And she had a rented house. And so when we married, we rented the house from her. And we lived down there.	17:22
Tywanna Whorley	Was it like a two bedroom house or a one bedroom?	17:53
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, it was a two bedroom house and kitchen.	17:53
Tywanna Whorley	Wow. Did you ever go down to Frenchtown much?	17:59
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. Never went down there. Scared to death. That's who we talked with them people, and Mama would always make it sound worse and worse, I imagine to keep us away from it. And I have brothers, I have about six brothers.	17:59
Stacey Scales	Excuse me. All right.	18:13
Tywanna Whorley	So you said your mama would tell y'all stories about Frenchtown to keep y'all from going down there, huh?	18:17
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, that's what she told us, yes. I was scared of that place. I had an older sister that was older than me. She used to tell stories and slip off around there. And then would threaten me not to tell her, because I was the one supposed to tell her everything.	18:25
Stacey Scales	What other places you would go?	18:39
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, no, we wouldn't go anywhere but the church and back home. And then we always had a picnic on the 20th of May, emancipation. Our mama and another lady always, ever since I was a little girl, they used to have this big picnic on 20th of May Day. And my daddy and all the community would get together and they'd make this great, big bag of lemonade. And then she'd have us say speeches. We would always say speeches and we would march and dance behind the drum. My daddy had some drums. And both of my brothers grew up beating the drums. They could really beat them drums. I had two brothers, Carter and Henry. They would beat the drums.	18:42
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And they would start that morning, at sunrise. We would have this 20th of May Day, and my mama would have the maypole. She'd have a maypole wrapping with all red, White, and blue strings on the pole. And we would start practicing about April, the 1st of April, last of March, 1st of April. We would start practicing how to wrap this maypole and all the children out the community would come from all up here [indistinct 00:20:10] the church and every which way. And she would practice twice a week. Maybe Monday night and Friday night. And we would learn how to wrap this pole. She would start the small children, them wrapping about like that, and then the middle set would wrap the pole. They'd always wrap the pole after we'd wrap it.	19:35
Stacey Scales	She was teaching you as a child?	20:33
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	As a child emancipation.	20:35
Stacey Scales	Did you ever participate in something called the Ring Shout?	20:38
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, I won't be in there, but I'd stand off and look and jump round. [indistinct 00:20:47] they had the ring play, my brothers and all of them and my older sisters. They would have the big ring play and all the girls out the community would come.	20:42
Stacey Scales	You call it the ring play?	21:00
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, they called it ring play. That's all I know.	21:02
Stacey Scales	Okay, ring play?	21:04
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah.	21:05
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	21:05
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	They'd be singing and beating the drums and patting their head and they'd have partner, here we go. And they'd swing their partners and go back and come get a new one and swing that.	21:07
Tywanna Whorley	Wow.	21:19
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	They just had a big time. So we would practice this up until the 20th of May. Then 20th of May, we had to really do that thing. And my daddy, he had a special place down there. It's a place down this side of the road where you see a picnic ground there now. But he had further back up where the houses built now. And he would always Whitewash his trees, all the trees in this picnic place, in the picnic ground where we had the picnic on the 20th of May. He would take lime and Whitewash the trees. And then we would all gather there for emancipation. And I think my brothers would always say emancipation and why we haven't the 20th of May.	21:22
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	It was always tied back from a kid, that it's the day Black people was freed when we had emancipation. And we still do that. We do it in memory of my mother. Every 20th of May, we have a big picnic down there. And the grandchildren tell the reason, the great-grands mostly. They grew up now, and they remember it better than I do.	22:10
Tywanna Whorley	Wow.	22:47
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And we still have the wrapping of the maypole. We get all the little children and we wrap the maypole. People won't participate. The neighbors, anything won't send the children now. They teach the children better than that. That's all folks, they teach them not to remember it. When we always remembered.	22:47
Tywanna Whorley	Do you also still celebrate the 4th of July?	23:07
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	We never paid that much attention, but anyway, we always had to cook pumpkin pies for the 4th of July. But we never celebrated it. We never paid that much. The only thing we really would celebrate would be the 20th of May. And people for miles would come and celebrate, even when they had wagons, they would drive their wagons. Probably 7:00 in the morning, you would look down and see the wagons and horses being tied around, people getting out, and all these older children. And this great, big gallon bag. My daddy made his bag of lemonade.	23:11
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	In fact, him and all the neighbors, I remember when they was paying 25 cents, all the men would gather and pay 25 cents and they could make this bag of lemonade two or three times a day if they drank it up. And see how much you going to get for a bag of lemonade now, paying 25 cents. But my daddy would tell them, they'd say, "How much we got to pay for the drinks of lemonade?" And he would tell them, "25 cents." And they would get together and make this bag of lemonade for the children and the women then spread the tablecloth on the ground. I don't think you know how it is. Building up all the sticks. Everybody would come with their baskets and all them beautiful tablecloths and spread them on the ground.	23:57
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And we children would get out and they'd fix the food, piling all the way around, all over the place. And then we'd cheer when lunchtime come. We'd get on it and eat our food, sit down on the ground.	24:56
Stacey Scales	So that was the whole day?	25:11
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	That was the whole day. We had this the whole day. And at first, they would have the speeches. Everybody would say a speech and then we would march and red, White, and blue and everything. And then we would eat after the program. And after we eat lunch, then we would have the wrapping of the maypole, where you'd walk and talk and eat and talk and eat all day long on the 20th day of May. So we still have that. My nephews would speak some on that day. They live down there to the place now.	25:12
Stacey Scales	Where would you all meet? What place?	26:02
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	My mama had a big house sitting by in the middle of the place. And everybody would meet at her house.	26:06
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	26:12
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And practice and do things until time for the picnic. Then we had a picnic ground right down on the road, Centersville Road.	26:12
Tywanna Whorley	Centersville Road?	26:23
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	In those days, it wasn't paved. And as you go by, going back to town, you'll see this place there now, where we still have the picnic.	26:24
Stacey Scales	How long would you practice before the actual 20—	26:32
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Event?	26:37
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	26:38
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, we would start practicing in March.	26:38
Tywanna Whorley	Wow.	26:41
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Of every year. Like me, the months was shorter than me, no, something, I don't know. But I remember you'd start practicing when it was still cold. It'd be still cold. And we would start going to practicing. The girls would come. Take all the little boys, and they would wrap the pole and they would send us peaches. And people would see that and children come.	26:42
Tywanna Whorley	Was that the high point in March, when everybody was ready for people just to call down and say, "It's time to practice"?	27:12
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah.	27:18
Tywanna Whorley	Yeah? Wow.	27:19
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Starting in March.	27:19
Stacey Scales	What about during Christmas and New Year's and other holidays?	27:26
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No, we celebrated them and everything, but we never did like we did on the 20th of May.	27:30
Tywanna Whorley	Did anyone from the outside ever come in to speak at the picnic about Emancipation Day? Or was it just the community and the kids?	27:38
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Anybody would ask to come, but people didn't come in like they do now. Not have people from the city going. But they didn't even notice you. But what they would do, White people would let you off if you're the maid or city or thing like that. They would let the men off, all the men off on that day. But when the younger men, the years progressed on, the young men, they got to believing Colored people didn't want people to know they're celebrating the 20th of May.	27:47
Stacey Scales	Really?	28:16
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, really. And they got to a place they wouldn't take off. So [indistinct 00:28:28] they won't let y'all. If you take off, you don't get paid. But they would let you off and pay you.	28:23
Tywanna Whorley	When May 20th came around, it could be on any day, that day you had off?	28:37
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	That day you had off.	28:40
Tywanna Whorley	Oh.	28:42
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Any day in the middle of the week or any time. But that day you had off.	28:43
Tywanna Whorley	You remember any of the speeches that you made on that day? What you said?	28:50
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Not hardly. Oh yeah, I remember one we had that my mama learned. I never did learn that speech right or something happened to it. I started going to Lincoln School. Teacher got my speech and I never did get it back from her. But it was the Negro Will Be In It. God intended for first to last that a Negro would be in it. And every 20th of May, we couldn't wait to get up there and say that. (laughs)	29:06
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:29:40].	29:36
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	A Negro will be in it.	29:41
Stacey Scales	Did you ever say a speech on May 20th?	29:44
Frazier Jefferson	I beat the drum.	29:47
Stacey Scales	Oh, you beat the drum?	29:51
Frazier Jefferson	Yeah.	29:57
Stacey Scales	Okay.	29:57
Frazier Jefferson	She wouldn't let me do it.	29:57
Stacey Scales	The cantor?	29:57
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:30:00].	29:57
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	29:57
Frazier Jefferson	Yeah.	30:01
Stacey Scales	What type of drums? Were they sticks?	30:02
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah.	30:05
Frazier Jefferson	Yeah, [indistinct 00:30:08].	30:05
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	You know the bass had the one stick, and the kilns had the two sticks. And boy, my brothers could beat them kilns.	30:07
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:30:17] behind them sometimes.	30:17
Stacey Scales	Do they still play?	30:22
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:30:24].	30:22
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	The grand boys still play. And we've still got the drums.	30:25
Stacey Scales	Really?	30:29
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah.	30:30
Stacey Scales	They're here?	30:31
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Not mine, but my sister have them.	30:32
Stacey Scales	Is that right?	30:34
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I have an older sister living on [indistinct 00:30:40] Street. She has a property out there. That's why we still have [indistinct 00:30:47] on her property. She will come out to the city and built in the country.	30:38
Tywanna Whorley	So the picnic would be held in the same area each year?	30:53
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah.	30:57
Tywanna Whorley	Y'all didn't move around? Y'all just stayed in the same area?	30:58
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No, we didn't move around.	30:59
Tywanna Whorley	Oh.	30:59
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Because I imagine back in that time, there's a lot of Colored Black people had land. Not up in here, maybe further back. And then years later, a White man decided to sell the property up in here. He was just one old fella by himself and he sold people the property up in here.	31:03
Tywanna Whorley	[indistinct 00:31:25].	31:24
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And Black people began to come from far out and come [indistinct 00:31:30].	31:27
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember how much the land was back then when he sold it?	31:30
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, it was probably $30 an acre.	31:38
Tywanna Whorley	Oh. Did you ever talk to your friends about how y'all were able to get together to buy land?	31:45
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. I never talked to them about it. I didn't care whether they had none or if they didn't have something up [indistinct 00:31:58]. We had added all those [indistinct 00:32:01].	31:53
Tywanna Whorley	Right.	31:58
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	My granddaddy raised my daddy, and my daddy took over when he got too old to tend to his business. My daddy took over. So when my granddaddy died, my daddy already had his land, where other people didn't. And then he had a cousin with a county farm over there on [indistinct 00:32:24]. He had a cousin, she owned that, because it was two brothers. It was two of the brothers. Her father and my daddy ran a farm.	32:01
Tywanna Whorley	So your grandpa owned his land already?	32:36
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. Grandpa owned his land already.	32:38
Tywanna Whorley	Wow.	32:39
Stacey Scales	Did people back in those days talk about superstitions and spirits and haints—	32:43
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Lord, don't say that.	32:47
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	They didn't think of nothing but superstitions. Now that's when I would sit under my mama and hear her tell. Oh, she just loved to tell them old tales about how the ghosts would get in the buggy and the horse and ride with her. Now my daddy didn't do much of that.	32:50
Stacey Scales	No?	33:04
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. He didn't do much of that. We asked him about it. (laughter)	33:06
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	But my mama used to always be telling us about ghosts. We used to pass the church (laughs) and see the lights on.	33:13
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And them brothers of mine, I didn't know whether they were lying or not. They used to tell all the time how they used to pass the church up there and the lights would be on in the church, and say they drove up in the yard and they say, "Ooh, the lights went out." And they made the horse kill itself until they got home. And I didn't know whether they was telling the truth. But they told them tales all that time. Mama, she always telling us about the ghosts. She come up there by Lake Jackson, and she used to tell how things happened. She was growing up up there, and what she saw, and everything.	33:30
Stacey Scales	How did people look at graveyards? Did they think that that's a place where these spirits would be or something like that?	34:05
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. Everybody thought that. That's where the spirits would come, out the graveyard. And then that was the haunted places.	34:15
Stacey Scales	The haunted?	34:17
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. Was the graveyards and the church. I remember one time, I caused more children got hurt in the church than anybody else. Us had school in there, called [indistinct 00:34:38] Church. That's what we called it.	34:17
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And we had school. That's where we had school for years before the county built us a school. And we'd go up there and they'd open the church. The section would open the church and when the children come, we'd go in. So all them children, everybody got in the school.	34:40
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And I got in there and I thought I heard something holler. I still don't know whether I actually hear it. And when I heard it, boy, I turned around and started running. And people are running because they see somebody else running. And I just turned round and started running and running over the children. The children then started running over each other and all of us fell out the church door. (laughs)	35:01
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And I swore I heard something, but I don't know if I heard nothing since I growed up and got more sense. (laughter)	35:28
Stacey Scales	Did they have people here putting spells on somebody and things?	35:37
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Nah, they didn't talk about that. That's one thing they didn't believe in. They never did believe in people putting spells on you and that kind of thing. So folks didn't know much about that, because they didn't talk about that. [indistinct 00:35:58] and I used to grow up and think, when I hear other folks talk, I would grow up and think, "Oh, they just old phonies. They don't know what's going on." That's what I thought about them. Because they didn't believe in the stuff and didn't pay it no attention. And didn't talk it to us, and we just thought they didn't know no better.	35:40
Tywanna Whorley	What did y'all used to do for fun?	36:27
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, play ball and play. Child, moonshine, us would playing until 1:00 at night, running from house to house, in the moonshine nights. Us had more fun than children have now, to me. And then they had this ring play, you know? And my brother, they getting ready to get up a game. One would stand out in the yard and hoop. And somebody would way over yonder would be hoop or they were getting together then. And they hoop around until they get 'em a gang.	36:36
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And they'd have fireball rollings. Yeah, [indistinct 00:37:10] they'd have us making fireballs the whole day.	37:05
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Us would wrap all these rags, tie, get these strings, and cut them. And wrap them together and make a ball and soak them all day in kerosene.	37:14
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And then that night, they'd have a fireball rolling. And then squirrels, you know, us cook squirrels. The boys would go out and get squirrels and they'd have a pot out in the yard there to cook the squirrels and rice. And they'd have this fireball rolling. And after they get through the fireball rolling, then they'd eat.	37:26
Stacey Scales	How'd you play the game, fireball?	37:45
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, one throw it to them and you grab it quick and throw it to somebody else and somebody grab it quick and throw it. And that's the way y'all did.	37:49
Frazier Jefferson	You know, I'm glad I married you.	37:58
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Because you can't think of nothing, you just sitting there. (laughs)	38:01
Frazier Jefferson	Now I'm older, I'm just fixing to hear you explaining— (laughs)	38:02
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I seen my brothers do it. And I'd watch it. I was very small. By the time I growed up, they weren't doing that no more much. But I'd seen my brothers doing it. They would go up there. They had these pots. And Mama and them would support them, too. And they had these big fireball rollings. And everybody rolled, throw the ball at this, and then the one who can get it, they all throw it to somebody. And if you don't throw it, you going to catch on fire. So you get that ball and throw it. You played the game.	38:09
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:38:48].	38:47
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Huh? No, they didn't turn no gasoline now. Someone would've got blown up.	38:51
Frazier Jefferson	That kerosene was [indistinct 00:38:58]—	38:56
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	That was kerosene.	38:58
Frazier Jefferson	That kerosene wouldn't lay low.	39:00
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	That kerosene is better than it's not. It is a little better. And that's what they'd soak them balls in all day.	39:01
Stacey Scales	And they would cook the squirrels while you was playing this game?	39:08
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. Mama would cook the pot of squirrels for them.	39:10
Stacey Scales	Now how about when it was cold, how would you keep your food?	39:13
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, they'd still cook it out there in the yard, cook it out in the yard and then go, because you could eat it hot. And they cooked that pot of squirrels and oh, boy, you know when it was squirrels, when it's time to kill them, you could only kill them in the wintertime. They didn't have that in the summertime. And they don't have much fireball rollings in the summertime. They had them in the winter.	39:18
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	39:41
Tywanna Whorley	Did your parents ever talk about any Black organizations during that time?	39:44
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No.	39:49
Tywanna Whorley	Like the NAACP or anything to do—	39:49
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No, I don't believe they had [indistinct 00:39:55].	39:49
Stacey Scales	Or Booker T. Washington had a farmers or businessmen organization for farmers throughout the South or something like that.	39:56
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I imagine the people in the city had that. But my daddy and them was in the country. I figure they were so backwards, they didn't have it.	40:07
Tywanna Whorley	When you did go to school, did you hear about any successful Black people? Did your teacher ever tell you about Black people who were successful?	40:17
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah.	40:26
Tywanna Whorley	You remember any of them?	40:27
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, like Potsdam. I knew he talked about him.	40:34
Tywanna Whorley	Who is Potsdam?	40:37
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I thought he was rich, if we'd have had his name. But he's Potsdam. I mean, I know they got something in Tallahassee named after him. I don't know. But I remember it was him and it was a lot of others. But I don't remember the names. They would talk about they had a [indistinct 00:41:04]. I would hear Papa talk about some kind of lords that was downtown.	40:41
Tywanna Whorley	Like masons?	41:11
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He really didn't call it the mason men. But I remember him talking about the mason.	41:13
Stacey Scales	Prince Hall, something like that?	41:18
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. The hall was downtown. He talked about that.	41:20
Tywanna Whorley	When you got older, you said you didn't hang out in Frenchtown. But what'd you do for fun as you got older?	41:27
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, you could have your friends and we played cards and stuff like that.	41:35
Tywanna Whorley	Okay.	41:41
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And anything like that. But otherwise, we didn't [indistinct 00:41:45]—	41:41
Stacey Scales	Did y'all ever go up north?	41:45
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	We had nobody living up there. Never did go up, no.	41:51
Stacey Scales	No? You never had family or friends to move up that way?	41:54
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. We didn't.	41:58
Frazier Jefferson	I think we were planning on going on a trip now.	42:05
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	42:06
Frazier Jefferson	And seeing [indistinct 00:42:12].	42:06
Tywanna Whorley	That's a nice stove [indistinct 00:42:16].	42:13
Frazier Jefferson	Mm-hmm. How old is the stove?	42:17
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, that's not very old.	42:18
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:42:21].	42:20
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	We probably bought that about 30 years ago.	42:21
Tywanna Whorley	My grandma used to have one.	42:32
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Huh?	42:33
Tywanna Whorley	My grandma used to have one. She had one in the kitchen and one in the living room.	42:33
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. We had our kitchen out from the house.	42:36
Stacey Scales	Yeah?	42:41
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. We had at the house and then Mama made this kitchen out from the house. That's where we cooked at. And ate, until we actually had company, and then the company went in to the big table in the house. But my brother take away, because Mama liked to cook and feed and she would just cook all this for the whole country full and have it all cooked up and have all the kinfolks to come from town. We used to have these really kinfolks, Collins, named Collins. They'd come. He would eat so much. My brother would be hungry, so he'd peep all around through the cracks. And they didn't feed us with the company.	42:42
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	We had to wait until the company go to eat. And so my brother, he used to peep through the cracks to see if the man going to eat it all. So Mr. Henry Collins got to the day when he was getting that [indistinct 00:43:46] and watch him until he got the last biscuit. And when he went over there and got the last biscuit [indistinct 00:43:51]. "Oh, Lord, he going to eat it all. [indistinct 00:43:56]." And he fell right outside. Mama knew Daddy was [indistinct 00:44:07]. Oh, yeah, she go [indistinct 00:44:15] and she struck [indistinct 00:44:17] that's all right. And he put that biscuit back. He said, "Oh, Lord, I didn't realize I was eating it all from the children. What's the matter with me?"	43:30
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	So he put the biscuit back. And Mama knew she ain't want to cook no more, so she said—When the people was gone, I sure was glad Isaac stopped that man from cleaning or taking it. But yes, she [indistinct 00:44:41] eat this, ridiculous. Well, we used to have plenty fun. I just tell y'all we had no fun, like we had the house so we could peep through the cracks in these houses in the country. When we was bored, we'd always look through the cracks. So [indistinct 00:45:04] when he went to get that last biscuit, he said, "Oh, Lord, he ate the last—" [indistinct 00:45:19] for years over that. [indistinct 00:45:23] was something. And I had all this food. We had eggs and my daddy made all these tomatoes.	44:27
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	They never did, Mama wouldn't peel. She would wash an eye. So she wouldn't peel. So we had all these tomatoes and all this stuff. You wait until they go to town. Every Saturday, they'd go to town and stay all day. What they would do out there, I don't know. And my brothers would start cooking. One would say, "I'm going to make the cake." The other one say, "You kill the chickens and these children will pick them." And I [indistinct 00:45:47] I would come, "Oh, they cut my finger on the rooster." [indistinct 00:45:47]. And his favorite [indistinct 00:45:47] while they go into town, stay there for the night. They'd tell me, "Oh, but I bought us all this cheese." I just realized that [indistinct 00:46:33] they'd bring us all this stuff. And all by 11:00, because they never come home until 11:00. And us would be so full. Tell us, "What do you mean?" [indistinct 00:46:46]. My brother be—	45:31

Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Frogs legs. And my brother's couldn't eat them till when they go over to Sam's and when they leave home on saturday, it's—Oh, boy. Them boys go down to that branch and get them—(laughs) catch every frog they could see and cut the legs off and then they have a frog cooking. That's how we knowed how to eat frog legs. (laughs)	0:01
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, boy.	0:37
Tywanna Whorley	What would be your job in all this?	0:37
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, right there and beat them with the pan, trying to help pick. Also had to pick the chicken. So we'd pick the chicken.	0:37
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, wow.	0:37
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And then one brother cooked the chicken. And the other brother, he would get right in there and do the bad things.	0:38
Tywanna Whorley	Mm-hmm.	0:48
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	One would pick and the other would cook, see, that what it is. We had lots of fun in the country, I tell you.	0:52
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And then on Sundays, Saturday evenings, when we finish us work, us could always play ball. And they would play then a ball game down in the field and all the children out the community would come and play ball. They had they ball and bat and they would play ball. Our daddy liked to see them play ball and they'd get there and play ball.	0:55
Tywanna Whorley	So, did you—You said your brothers knew how to cook, did your mama let them in the kitchen?	1:21
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	She'd allow me in there and shoo them. They learned how to cook when she wasn't there. (laughs)	1:27
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Them boys learned how to cook when she wasn't there. They didn't want to her to darken the door.	1:27
Tywanna Whorley	Yeah. Was it good though?	1:43
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Huh?	1:44
Tywanna Whorley	Was it good.	1:45
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. What did we know? We didn't know whether it was good or bad. We was just hungry. It was good.	1:46
Tywanna Whorley	But did they feed you before they left?	1:55
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Who, the boys?	1:58
Tywanna Whorley	No, your parents, when they went to town Saturday?	1:58
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, yeah. They would left food there but us didn't want that. Wanted for us to have fried meat, and then Papa would even kill cows and smoke them. Kill yearlings and smoke them, he'd have us go up there and cut it off and eat it when it was raw. Because after its smoked [indistinct 00:02:20] it's like smoked meat.	2:01
Tywanna Whorley	So, y'all had a smokehouse?	2:22
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. We had a smokehouse and that's where we was kept the syrup and everything. And they'd go there and mark the barrel and I see whether they going to use the syrup, you know? Shoot, them boys put their mark out and put a mark over it. (laughs) They didn't know what sweet children they had. (laughs)	2:23
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:02:47].	2:44
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, we had fun. We had fun. I'm telling you we'd play half of the night. Children don't know how to play now because looking at television, you know, and all them things. But we would play half of the night. Ring play, ball long as we could see how to play that ball or anything, play cards.	2:49
Tywanna Whorley	Did you father keep the smokehouse locked or was it anybody could go in it?	3:10
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, he kept it locked. They'd lock it at night. But in the daytime [indistinct 00:03:20] had a key, they could have opened it too. But they'd wait till he'd go on, then have a key. They'd steal his key, you know? And they'd get him a key. Or they'd go buy the key, they'd always give you two keys with a key. And they would—Lost that key. Yeah, Papa must have lost that key. And they would have it in the pocket for when they go off, they could open the smokehouse.	3:14
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, right.	3:43
Stacey Scales	Did they ever get caught?	3:46
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. They didn't ever get caught [indistinct 00:03:53]. Any of those day we smoke sausage, they also have a day where we'd grind the sausage and then we would stuff them. Mama had a stuffer. But that stuffer would stuff [indistinct 00:04:03] ham hanging all around.	3:47
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Child, us ain't never [indistinct 00:04:07] and the children and us would go to town, they talking, "Y'all poor little country children." And I'd say, "Hm. Child, please. You're the one poor." [indistinct 00:04:18] because they didn't know no better than to say that.	4:05
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	But I wasn't poor. I didn't know how rich I was. Because like I said, I ain't never known not to have food. We had that all [indistinct 00:04:31] because we raised chickens and hogs and cows and everything.	4:22
Tywanna Whorley	Was it a close family, your sisters and brothers. Were y'all really close?	4:35
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh yeah, it was close.	4:39
Tywanna Whorley	Y'all watched out for each other?	4:39
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. We watched out for each other. They even pulled a rattlesnake out the hole alive.	4:40
Stacey Scales	They did what?	4:49
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	They were learning—The brothers, they'd catch field rats or they cooked everything but he couldn't get a rabbit to drag out and get a field rat. So my brother were behind this rat, this rat running and trying to catch him. And the rattlesnake moved behind the rat, too. So, when the rat run down in the hole, the rattlesnake run down in the hole.	4:54
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, one of my brothers, didn't have sense to even know what the rattlesnake was, that's my third brother Isaac. And my other brother rattled it and my oldest brother, he was there too with them. He probably had more sense than Hunter. Hunter was just slinging back on the rattlesnake and pull him out the hole and every time he come, give back, and come back like that my other brother stood there and and chopped him across the back and chopped his—break his back.	5:20
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Every time he'd pull him in, this rattlesnake would yield to it, he would strike him across the back. And by the time he got him out the hole, he just said, "Shit." (laughs) And laid down because he had broke his back all the way down.	5:53
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Mama had these shell beads in her trunk and my brother went there when Mama was in there one day, she didn't allow us to look in that trunk and then she was in it. So, he was standing over there peeking in the trunk while Mama go in her trunk, so he saw mama beads and he said, "Those shell beads you got there, Mama?" She said, "Yeah."	6:10
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And she went to tell to tell him a story about her grandmama brought them from slavery. Somebody give them to her and while Mama was elaborating about all these beads and my other brother come up there.	6:30
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He was littler than the rest of them. He said, "Mama, us pulled something out the hole, snake out the hole had things on him like that bead, like your beads there." And Mama would say, "What?"	6:41
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Say, "Yeah. Tell her to grab that booster and swung back on him and pulled him out that hole." Said, "But every time he come out the hole he'll strike him across the back." And said, "We got that booster out that hole and we got that rat he was trying to get." Because they dug the rat out after they got the snake out, throw them out the way. They weren't scared of nothing.	6:55
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And then Mama, oh, she got the faints, you know. And the strength left her, her children would have already been dead, but just she wait in our favor.	7:23
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	But anyway, when Papa come, "Henry, come and let me tell you something. Did you know that boy told me that them boys pulled something out the hole that things on its tail like these beads?"	7:34
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Papa say, "Oh, no, that boy lying." He called Isaac, "Isaac, come here. Did you see this?" "Yes, ma'am, I saw them pull them out." They were winking they eye at him trying to get him not to tell him. (laughs) He was just telling.	7:47
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Then she got them all up there and they had to confess. Then they start with, "Oh, Henry, don't whoop them. They say it's bad luck." [indistinct 00:08:14] bad luck ever been dead. "I'm going to beat them."	8:05
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He whooped every one of them. They never forgot that. And that's how I know it was a rattlesnake but I think Hunter and Henry know it was a rattlesnake. Isaac didn't know it was a rattlesnake but he wouldn't have never told Mama what he saw.	8:16
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Lord, us would get into all kind of things.	8:36
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And the good thing, they didn't know how to eat the rattlesnake or they might have ate him. (laughs)	8:42
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, dang. When you say your parents went to town, did they bring back clothes and stuff or did your mom make your clothes for you?	8:53
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, she made them sometime but they always after we sell the cotton. After we would sell cotton, Papa always bought the boys clothes. And then he give mama money to buy us dresses and make us dresses.	8:59
Tywanna Whorley	Mm-hmm.	9:13
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Mm-hmm.	9:13
Tywanna Whorley	Did you ever go to town with them?	9:18
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. I ain't never [indistinct 00:09:21] one time with my mama. No, us would stay there to be bad. That's the only time we could be bad when they was out of sight. And us know they was going to stay there for the night. I don't know why people would go to town, you could hear these wagons, 12, 1 o'clock, I mean years later. Long as people using wagons you could hear them coming from town at night. They'd go there and stay all day.	9:21
Tywanna Whorley	Did they ever talk about the different bathrooms, ones would have Colored on it, White?	9:52
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, yeah.	9:57
Tywanna Whorley	When they went to town?	9:59
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. They couldn't use the White folks bathrooms. White then Black bathroom, Colored.	10:01
Tywanna Whorley	Would your parents pack lunches when they went to town?	10:08
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I never see them pack nothing. I think downtown somewhere, the lady name is Lizzie Douglas. Over there where the city hall at. That was the club market in that day, that's where you get your horse and wagon.	10:11
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, okay.	10:26
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And she had a place down there where she cooked them, where they cooked and them sold to Colored people.	10:27
Stacey Scales	To just—I'm sorry, there—	10:31
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I just said, I said I know White would eat there too. Just you couldn't go to their places.	10:36
Stacey Scales	Did you father ever tell fairytales or the folk stories about animals and things like that? You know how they tell the children the stories?	10:41
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	You'd tell them stories but it wouldn't be them kind of stories. It would probably be stories about slavery and stories his daddy had told him and stuff like that.	10:52
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Like he said this man had a monkey and Daddy said, it wasn't his boss but it was the friend to they little farm next to the farm and say the monkey, this guy was his friend. And he'd come over to they place to visit them and they said when he left him, he said to him, "Don't let the little Kilroy catch you." That mean, don't stay late.	11:01
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And then if sometime I think the Ku Klux would go after you, if they caught some slave going home late at night, they'd beat him up.	11:42
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	See, this man's coming from his house, would come over there and he'd be going back, and if they caught him they'd beat him up. So, he'd tell him, "Don't let the Kilroys get you."	11:53
Stacey Scales	Kilroy?	12:07
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Mm-hmm.	12:08
Stacey Scales	Okay.	12:08
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	So, he'd say he was coming on home that night and when he reached back and got a sheet to put over his head, he said he was going to scare the Colored guy. And so he got a sheet to put over his head and the monkey saw him and grabbed his shirt and put it over his head and they went on, he [indistinct 00:12:34] so when he getting ready to come home.	12:11
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He said, "10:00 he hadn't yet come." So the boss man got out there, he got to scare him when he got there, so he got out there and got near about hearing him coming, so he running in the bushes and pulled the sheet over his head and said, Colored guy, "Oh, my Lord. Yonder there that Kilroy, that boss man told me to don't let catch me."	12:37
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	"Yonder he—" Say, "Oh Lord he rising up." Say, "That's what boss man said was going to do." And say, "Y'all not look behind hime." (laughs) The monkey would do everything he see there. Say the monkey—	13:13
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Say, then the boss man would try to look back to see where the other was (laughs). And said when he looked back and saw this monkey rising up like he was rising up, he tore and ran up because he didn't know the monkey had followed him (laughs).	13:34
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	And the slave now who was supposed to be scared, he sat up there talking about, "Run big Kilroy because little Kilroy going to catch you." And said he would just run, and he would just run. And say, "Oh, you better run."	13:50
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	So, boss man run home and fell in the door and the monkey fell on top of him (laughter) and said by that time, his slave was there too, said he say, "Oh, you got at least two Kilroy. A little one and a big one. And the little one done fell on top of the big one." (laughter) [indistinct 00:14:32] slave on him, getting the monkey. (laughter)	14:10
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He'd tell us a whole lot of things like that, daddy would tell it.	14:31
Tywanna Whorley	Phew.	14:31
Stacey Scales	What does Kilroy mean? Did that mean something?	14:50
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Well, that's what they called that—you didn't call whatever they really was.	14:52
Stacey Scales	Oh.	14:55
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	You just call them that name to scare the—yeah. The slave, it make the slave come one in because tell them that's what was beating them, they know it was them other White folk beating them. But they called them some kind of name, you know, so that he would come on home.	14:55
Stacey Scales	All right. Oh, my.	15:16
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I just didn't remember much with them but my brother, now that's who you need to get. He'll remember everything Papa done said. I want to ask him do he want to talk to y'all someday.	15:27
Tywanna Whorley	Okay.	15:37
Stacey Scales	Did you remember any of the other stories that he told?	15:38
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No, I ain't remember. I think I never could listen to that stuff. I don't think I'm always so fast, hard-headed or something, because I didn't remember all the stories they had telled us.	15:47
Stacey Scales	Did you have to walk at night in the dark ever? You said you played by the moon, the moonlight, you were used to that? You aren't afraid of walking at night in the dark or playing outside?	16:00
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No, most of us come up in the church right up here and that's us and I would go, I'd say a good two miles from where I live going back towards town, over here in the church all the time. But I'd never just go there by myself. Went once in a while but not too often, later, yes. They wouldn't scare them, they ain't scared like people scared, you can't walk now. But then, we could walk for miles, people didn't bother you.	16:17
Stacey Scales	Did your father use an almanac to plant the crops?	16:43
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, yeah.	16:47
Stacey Scales	He use the moon?	16:48
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	[indistinct 00:16:52] the almanac. That's all the always back [indistinct 00:16:59].	16:52
Tywanna Whorley	Did he teach y'all how to use it too?	16:58
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No, never did he [indistinct 00:17:03] understand farming enough for that. He'd always have to beat us to do that. We wouldn't work. He'd watch us in the field, "Y'all, you better go to work." So, just go to work, as quick as his back turn we'd stop work. He'd all look at us, that man must be gotten eyes in the back of his head. Back of his head. He'd always be hollering at them.	17:02
Tywanna Whorley	Were y'all canning back then too?	17:33
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Canning?	17:38
Tywanna Whorley	Yes, ma'am.	17:39
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No, we did syrup. Mama, she made jelly. And she'd make jelly and things. But she didn't have a canner, she never did cane beans and things like that. The peas, we'd always dry them and put them up and they'd keep dry in the sacks up in the barn. And that's where we kept the peas.	17:40
Stacey Scales	Do you remember when your parents got—Or the first car in the neighborhood? Who had the first car?	18:10
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, the people across the street from us had a car, but we were so crazy we thought they were rich. Us say, "Well, they was rich why they got a car." [indistinct 00:18:28] and the, "Oh, he's so wild about horses, he wouldn't have bought a car if he had the money."	18:18
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes?	18:33
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	He raised horses. And he'd all he know is to talk about them horses and dogs. He hunted, he loved to hunt. So he'd go out and he'd get six and seven coons a night. And he sold hides. He would sell hides. And he'd clean his corner, stretch them hides and when they dry and was cured, then he'd box them up and mail them off to a mail order. I don't know where he was sending them, I didn't even know that. And he always sold his hides. Coons and—He found a few cats but he didn't catch many.	18:34
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember the bus boycott that took place in Tallahassee? Did they talk about it where you were living?	19:22
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, they talked about it.	19:30
Tywanna Whorley	Were people in your community scared for those people in the city area of Tallahassee when they started?	19:33
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, it would scare them. Scared some of them, but they won't scare two of them. By that time all of my brothers had left home and that was later years. I worked for the people who was real head of them thing.	19:40
Tywanna Whorley	Remember who they were?	20:02
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. Charles. [indistinct 00:20:12].	20:12
Tywanna Whorley	Did they ever talk about it when it was going on around you?	20:13
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Little bit. I guess they didn't want me getting sacred. They claimed they weren't scared but I was scared [indistinct 00:20:26]. With the boycott, when they were kicking them people at that time and them people from the town, some of them would stay out there where they live. They just [indistinct 00:20:46] somebody, I'll come there and beat them up. One time I come to work one day and I saw where they had burn a cross down in they driveway. I never see nothing talk about it because I was scared to death.	20:16
Tywanna Whorley	When you saw that, did you decide maybe you need to go back home or you just went on in and went to work?	21:05
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I went on and went to work. Decided if they weren't scared of me [indistinct 00:21:15].	21:09
Tywanna Whorley	Did you think they were going to be successful with the bus boycott?	21:18
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Mm-hmm. No, I thought them Ku Klux was going to go out there and kill them folks anytime.	21:32
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:21:33] used to be his Pontiac.	21:32
Stacey Scales	The Pontiac?	21:36
Frazier Jefferson	Yeah.	21:37
Stacey Scales	Used to be whose?	21:38
Tywanna Whorley	Mrs. Scholls.	21:39
Stacey Scales	Oh, really?	21:40
Frazier Jefferson	Mm-hmm. And you hear him scrubbing on something out there?	21:41
Stacey Scales	Yes, sir.	21:45
Frazier Jefferson	That used to be his.	21:47
Stacey Scales	Hm.	21:48
Frazier Jefferson	[indistinct 00:21:55] and she used to wake up [indistinct 00:21:58] talking about when you started [indistinct 00:22:03].	21:54
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Once I got about 45.	21:55
Stacey Scales	Did you all see or hear about Martin Luther King when he came?	22:11
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah. Mm-hmm.	22:20
Stacey Scales	Did you see him?	22:23
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, I saw him.	22:23
Stacey Scales	How did you feel after you heard what he had to say?	22:23
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I wasn't never scared of [indistinct 00:22:34] I heard what they said [indistinct 00:22:35]. You know, I remember the time when the woman didn't get off the bus and they first did that. I remember one lady she said, "Well, you better not go to town because you may get the people [indistinct 00:22:51] or something." Go any way you want to go. He said [indistinct 00:22:58] but he didn't know. I think he is just talking [indistinct 00:23:02]. They didn't never act scared but I bet they was scared.	22:33
Stacey Scales	Did a lot of the ministers around, the local people around the area, speak up?	23:06
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	No. They didn't speak up, supported it, like I think they should. Not the country preachers, I know, the towns did. Now, the people of the city, they did.	23:12
Tywanna Whorley	Have you seen changes here in Tallahassee since then?	23:29
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I saw plenty change because you know, for years and all my life, you could go to town, you could walk all day and you couldn't get nothing to eat. Nothing. You couldn't go in these White folks' places. And [indistinct 00:23:55] you just had to go and shop and go back home. After that, after King come through and them, they went to making him take these signs down. Couldn't nobody use these public bathrooms but the White. White over here and the Colored over there. Weren't no Colored sign at all.	23:33
Tywanna Whorley	I don't want to keep you.	24:25
Stacey Scales	Do you have anything else that you want to share or advice for young folks or anything you want to put on the tape? What's your secret of being married for how long?	24:28
Tywanna Whorley	Sixty years.	24:38
Stacey Scales	Sixty years.	24:38
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	It's nice to think about, isn't it? (laughs)	24:38
Frazier Jefferson	She could steal your man back in that day.	24:38
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	I just said the Lord had more sense than I had and he kept us together. If it hadn't have been for him there wouldn't have been no way. Because for us but I always said, "He sure had more sense than I had."	24:57
Tywanna Whorley	Thank you.	25:10
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Trusting on him and we just made it.	25:11
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	[INTERRUPTION 00:25:11]	25:11
Stacey Scales	Yeah. So you called him Fred. He said afraid, and you thought it was Fred?	25:18
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Yeah, he ask him was he afraid, and he thought he was calling him Fred, so when he saw him, he said, "Oh, yonder that Fred that master was talking about?"(laughs) And then when he looked, he said, "Oh, there's two Freds?" And the master didn't know about two, you know, so he had decide when he tried to look back to where this other, and when he was looking back, monkey was looking back too, you know, because he's doing exactly what he saw his master doing. (laughs)	25:25
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	Everybody will tell you that, "Oh, look at the little Fred and the big Fred. Run big Fred, little Fred going to catch you." He had him—	25:49
Harrietta Hill Jefferson	See daddy used to tell me about that. All the things my daddy would say I had to make my brother tell me so I can tell him. That's one brother who knows everything.	25:49
Tywanna Whorley	We also have [indistinct 00:26:27]-	26:14

Item Info

Title:

Harrietta Jefferson interview recording, 1994 August 08

Date:

August 8, 1994

Creator:

Contributor:

Description:

Name: Harrietta Hill Jefferson; Date of birth: 1916-11-11; Place of birth: Tallahassee, FL; Occupation(s): domestic worker; Residence: Tallahassee, FL
Informant ID: 412; Interviewed by: Stacey Scales and Tywanna Whorley.

Occupation:

Domestic worker

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1534
a9fbb88a-2104-435a-96f2-b5a81780efeb
behindtheveil
79d0ff9b-5057-4352-85aa-e0a9e4aa261b
ark:/87924/r4br8zr45
79d0ff9b-5057-4352-85aa-e0a9e4aa261b

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4br8zr45

Sponsor:

Sponsor this Digital Collection

Harrietta Jefferson interview recording, 1994 August 08

Transcript

Item Info

1. Harrietta Jefferson administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options

Transcript

Item Info

Related Items

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options