Hortense Williams interview recording, 1995 July 17

Download
- Rights
- Limited Re-Use
  CC BY-NC 4.0
  More Rights Info
- Files (2)
- MP3 Part 1
- MP3 Part 2
- Please be patient with media downloads. They are often large files.
Share

Embed Code
<iframe src='https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4086ff5q?embed=true' height='125px' width='100%' frameborder='0' marginwidth='0' marginheight='0' scrolling='no' loading='lazy' allowfullscreen></iframe>
Permalink

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4086ff5q
Skip to Item Info

Loading the media player...

Files for this Item

Transcript

Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.

Kisha Turner	Okay, if we can begin by you just stating your full name and when you were born.	0:00
Hortense Spence Williams	I'm Hortense Spence Williams. I was born in Emporia, Virginia, Greenville County, in 1928.	0:06
Kisha Turner	What was the name of that county?	0:12
Hortense Spence Williams	Greenville County.	0:12
Kisha Turner	Greenville County. Okay. When did you come to Norfolk?	0:22
Hortense Spence Williams	I came to Norfolk in 1948, the year that I finished St. Paul's College. At that time it was St. Paul's Polytechnic Institute, now it's St. Paul's College. The president was Dr. Solomon Russell.	0:32
Kisha Turner	How many brothers and sisters do you have?	0:58
Hortense Spence Williams	My mother had 15 children.	1:00
Kisha Turner	What kind of community was Emporia?	1:06
Hortense Spence Williams	My father owned a truck line, it was called Spence Truck Line. Emporia, at that time, did not have a hospital. When you got sick you had to go to Richmond and all Blacks were put in the basement of the hospital. This was before the full civil rights movement started. Emporia was a small town. At that time we didn't have a McDonald's or Holiday Inn or anything, which we have today. It was a very small town.	1:08
Kisha Turner	And what kind of work did your mother do?	1:43
Hortense Spence Williams	My mother was a housekeeper. My father was able to—	1:45
Speaker 1	Hello?	1:50
Hortense Spence Williams	—get a charter—	1:52
Speaker 1	Hello?	1:53
Hortense Spence Williams	—franchise, I should say.	1:54
Kisha Turner	Okay.	1:55
Speaker 1	What time?	1:55
Hortense Spence Williams	The last part of my name was Spence, and it was called Spence Truck Line. He was able to get a charter under the White man. Not a charter, but a franchise, I'm sorry—	1:57
Kisha Turner	Okay.	2:09
Hortense Spence Williams	—under the White man. And he used this franchise until he was able to get his own and name it Spence Truck Line, which was my maiden name. But he had to work in through the White man, as all of us did back in those days. But I highly respect my father because he did not have no education, he just had what most of us need, good common sense, vision. He was very aggressive and a very smart man. He had no education. In those days you didn't have to pay Social Security, so he was left out there. It wasn't a law that you had to pay it. But he was able to raise a large family and he would spend the week in Emporia and come home on Saturday night.	2:10
Kisha Turner	Okay. So he worked in the—	3:05
Hortense Spence Williams	Emporia.	3:05
Kisha Turner	Okay.	3:09
Hortense Spence Williams	But we lived 12 miles out in the country.	3:09
Kisha Turner	Okay.	3:12
Hortense Spence Williams	And he was able to send—All of my sisters went to college. I had one brother to go, the rest drove the trucks.	3:13
Kisha Turner	Do any of your brothers still run Spence?	3:27
Hortense Spence Williams	No.	3:30
Kisha Turner	Okay.	3:31
Hortense Spence Williams	Later on my father passed. I had one brother that was able to have two more trucks. He was very aggressive with my father before he passed. There was three months difference in their death. And after that, it seemed as though we weren't able to carry on the truck line because we, all the sisters, all of us finished college and moved away. And in the meantime, my brothers had other jobs. And two of my brothers passed, or three I should say, so we sold the franchise.	3:31
Kisha Turner	Did your father ever talk about how he started that business, where he got the initial capital to begin his business?	4:09
Hortense Spence Williams	Well, as I say, in those days you didn't need much.	4:18
Kisha Turner	Okay.	4:21
Hortense Spence Williams	And he had started—He was very close to this White family called the Harolds in Emporia, Virginia and they had the power. And as I say, when you have vision, common sense and wisdom you can get a long ways. And this is part of being a good business person. So he was able to manipulate and use politics, and get close to this White man, and he could see something in my father as far as making money for him also. But my father was so aggressive and smart until he worked his way in with—until he was with this—worked with this White man until he was able to get his own franchise.	4:22
Kisha Turner	Okay. So I take it your father provided the kind of inspiration, I guess, for you—	5:03
Hortense Spence Williams	Right.	5:10
Kisha Turner	—going into business?	5:10
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes. I'll never forget, when I was a little girl, my father was very heavy and I would get up four o'clock in the morning and put his shoes on. And he would give me a nickel, and I thought that was a lot of money. Right today, I get up five o'clock in the morning to come to my business. I'm here every morning at 7:15 to take care of what needs to be done before we open up at 8:30. But I know I got getting—And I can't stay in bed. I know I got this from my father, it followed me. Yes.	5:11
Kisha Turner	Let's talk briefly about your education prior to college. Elementary school and high school, can you tell me, were these segregated—	5:55
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes.	6:03
Kisha Turner	—schools? Were they large?	6:03
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes. We walked through the woods four miles, there's a school. It was one room. It was one room.	6:05
Kisha Turner	Was this elementary school?	6:10
Hortense Spence Williams	Elementary school.	6:10
Kisha Turner	Okay.	6:10
Hortense Spence Williams	Rain or snow. I don't like long coats today. I don't like long dresses. But back in those days, I had to wear a long coat to keep my legs warm. And we had one room. And we would go to school, but to get to high school, I'll never forget, it was 12 miles from the city.	6:17
Hortense Spence Williams	And White kids, back in those days, had an elementary school in the country. They had a brick school. And we would go to Emporia, Virginia every Memorial Day and we'd pass by that school. The White kids would be on the buses, they'd open the window and spit on us riding along. That was busing. They had busing back in those days, the White kids did, but we had to walk through the woods to school. And we had no transportation to Emporia, so I'll never forget this family I had to stay with my last year of high school, because I had no way to get to high school.	6:43
Kisha Turner	Was your high school even further away?	7:23
Hortense Spence Williams	It was 12 miles—	7:24
Kisha Turner	Okay.	7:24
Hortense Spence Williams	—Emporia. 12 miles in the city—	7:24
Kisha Turner	Okay.	7:24
Hortense Spence Williams	—because we lived 12 miles out. So I listen at people talking about busing, but I'll never forget, when we walked through the woods to school and elementary school you have for White children rode the buses, and they open the window and spit on us and call us all kind of names—	7:26
Speaker 1	For some reason one of us—	7:47
Hortense Spence Williams	—but we just kept walking. That's what my mother taught us.	7:49
Kisha Turner	Taught you to keep walking?	7:50
Hortense Spence Williams	Keep walking, there will be a better day. And the better day came. And through Martin Luther King, they killed him, but he did something.	7:53
Kisha Turner	What other kinds of things did your parents tell you about how to deal with White folks, how to deal with their—	8:00
Hortense Spence Williams	Well let me tell you something off record. It might sound odd today, but I'm sure you'll understand. The White families lived all around us. My father had a lot of land in the country and then White people lived all around us. And do you know my poor mother, by being a slave under the slave master, she tried to make us say yes ma'am and no ma'am, and this young lady wasn't no more than 16, because she was taught slave time that you're supposed to say yes ma'am and no ma'am to White people.	8:14
Kisha Turner	Was this your mother or your grandmother?	8:48
Hortense Spence Williams	My mother.	8:48
Kisha Turner	Okay.	8:48
Hortense Spence Williams	But we refused to do it and we were teenagers. We refused to do it. We had just that much vision at that time to not say it. I just could not say, yes ma'am because of the color of your skin. Because we were going to school and I know we were more educated and we were living much better than that White family, but my poor mother didn't know any better because that's what she was taught. She was taught to say yes ma'am and no ma'am for White people.	8:52
Kisha Turner	Your mother was also from that area. Was she born in that area?	9:39
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes, my mother was born there.	9:39
Kisha Turner	Do you know anything about her family? Were they farmers?	9:39
Hortense Spence Williams	Well, yes, they were farmers and that until she married my father. That was the way—She married my father when she was 17.	9:41
Kisha Turner	Okay.	9:41
Hortense Spence Williams	Back in those days, people married young too. So in the meantime, she had no other choice but to be a housekeeper, because as I say, she had 14 children. And back in those days, you didn't have the opportunity to get trained like you do now. So, basically that's mostly what the mothers did in those days. If they didn't work in the field, they kept house. And when they worked in the field, there was farmland all round us, they worked from sun to sun. It wasn't no eight to five. We didn't have to do it, but the families around did.	9:41
Kisha Turner	Okay, so the land that your father owned, was land that—	10:24
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes.	10:25
Kisha Turner	Did anyone farm that land?	10:28
Hortense Spence Williams	No. We only raised a little corn, watermelons, cantaloupes.	10:29
Hortense Spence Williams	Jim! Excuse me. She interviewing me. She interviewing me.	10:31
Hortense Spence Williams	And we raised watermelons, corn, cantaloupes and a garden. My father had a lot of land.	10:41
Kisha Turner	Okay. Do you know how he acquired—Oh, go ahead.	10:49
Hortense Spence Williams	As I say, my father had a lot of wisdom and [indistinct 00:10:56].	10:53
Kisha Turner	Okay.	10:55
Hortense Spence Williams	Just a smart man without education, see. So he bought all this land. And the man that raised him, which was a White man, his father was White.	10:55
Kisha Turner	Oh.	11:10
Hortense Spence Williams	I have a White grandfather with a mixed son. But in the meantime, all this land fell on down to my father from his father.	11:11
Kisha Turner	Okay.	11:19
Hortense Spence Williams	I have his picture, I'm going to show him to you.	11:24
Kisha Turner	Okay.	11:25
Hortense Spence Williams	Sitting on trucks.	11:25
Kisha Turner	Now, were these crops for sale or did you just kind of raise them for your own family?	11:30
Hortense Spence Williams	They were only for the family.	11:34
Kisha Turner	Okay, I see.	11:35
Hortense Spence Williams	Only for the family. Because as I say, my father had a truck line, he raised all of his children off the truck line.	11:35
Kisha Turner	Now what were the names of the schools you went to, your elementary and your high school?	11:40
Hortense Spence Williams	Just Greenville County School. That's what they called the elementary school.	11:49
Kisha Turner	Okay.	11:54
Hortense Spence Williams	Then the high school was Greenville County High School.	11:56
Kisha Turner	Okay. And you went to St. Paul's College, you said it was—	12:01
Hortense Spence Williams	Yeah, it was St. Paul's—	12:07
Kisha Turner	—St Paul's [indistinct 00:12:08]. Where is this?	12:07
Hortense Spence Williams	Lawrenceville, Virginia	12:07
Kisha Turner	Lawrenceville.	12:07
Hortense Spence Williams	It's on a hill.	12:07
Kisha Turner	What was that like, going away to college?	12:07
Hortense Spence Williams	Well, I wanted a change. When I went to college, two of my sisters were at Virginia State College, Petersburg. But I said I'm going to change colleges. So at St. Paul's was a nice school. St. Paul Polytechnic Institute, at that time. You could go there, and I never thought about being in the business that I am today. My first year I took teacher's training. I changed my mind the second year, majored in industrial education and took cosmetology. I never thought about cutting hair and I never dreamed that this day I would be in this kind of business, which I have been in 37 years. And when I started this business, it wasn't such things as unisex, it was a barbershop.	12:16
Kisha Turner	Okay.	13:06
Hortense Spence Williams	But now I have a unisex shop where you style hair. And that's the state law, that you can style hair and cut hair in the same shop. I've had cosmetologists back here and they go out front, under their same certificate, they can cut hair.	13:08
Kisha Turner	So, was this town larger than what you grew up, the community you grew up in when you went away to school?	13:30
Hortense Spence Williams	Lawrenceville, Virginia was smaller—	13:39
Kisha Turner	Okay.	13:43
Hortense Spence Williams	—than Emporia.	13:44
Kisha Turner	Okay.	13:45
Hortense Spence Williams	But the college sits up on a hill, sits up on a hill. And we had one dormitory. It's a Episcopal, St. Paul is an a Episcopal school. I'll never forget it because we had to have—only thing we could eat on Friday was fish. They made the students go to chapel three days a week. I had to go to church every Sunday. You got no change?	13:47
Speaker 1	[indistinct 00:14:20] might have it.	14:19
Hortense Spence Williams	Can you loose?	14:19
Speaker 1	[indistinct 00:14:20].	14:19
Hortense Spence Williams	Can you unhook? I got to check this.	14:20
Speaker 1	You talking about [indistinct 00:14:28] up on the hill?	14:27
Hortense Spence Williams	St. Paul's. We had one dormitory, one female dormitory, Emery Hall, and one—Excuse me.	14:30
Speaker 1	You can get a White man. Hell, you can go and—	14:43
Hortense Spence Williams	One dormitory for the men. The men's dormitory was the dormitory we had our classes in the basement. We had classes in the basement. St. Paul wasn't as large then as it is now, because it's an Episcopal school and it makes students go to Sunday school, church every Sunday. And have to have fish on Friday, because that was the belief of the Episcopalians, but they don't do that today. And I don't care what you majored in, you have to take a certain portion of the Bible, that's just how it went, [indistinct 00:15:29]. Because back in those days, but they were great days. They were good days.	14:44
Kisha Turner	Now, you went to an Episcopal church, did you attend an—I mean, you went to an Episcopal school, did you attend an Episcopal church?	15:29
Hortense Spence Williams	Yeah. The church, as I say, was—I think I made a mistake. We didn't have classes in—We had classes in the church, that's what we'd do.	15:34
Kisha Turner	Okay.	15:47
Hortense Spence Williams	Because we would dance in the lobby, have dances in the lobby, and we had classes in the lobby of the church. The same church where the students had to go every Sunday for Sunday school and church.	15:48
Kisha Turner	Now did you attend an Episcopal church before you went to college?	15:59
Hortense Spence Williams	No, I'm a Baptist.	16:02
Kisha Turner	Okay.	16:02
Hortense Spence Williams	I'm a Baptist. But it's one thing I like about St. Paul, they did not force the students to take communion, they didn't. But, when springtime came, we couldn't go home on Easter, we had to go to church—	16:05
Kisha Turner	Okay.	16:20
Hortense Spence Williams	—on that Sunday. And they'd give us a spring break back in those years. That's right, just so the students could go to church.	16:20
Kisha Turner	What was your Baptist church like?	16:29
Hortense Spence Williams	Well, it's not like the one I belong to now and the country, which they still have church like that. They have churches in different communities, one for the first Sunday, one for the second Sunday, one the third, the fourth and so on. Our church that we were raised up in, had service on the second Sunday. And I taught Sunday school, we sang in the choir because I had a lot of sisters. Now my brothers weren't as [indistinct 00:17:01], they weren't in church like we were.	16:31
Kisha Turner	Okay.	17:03
Hortense Spence Williams	But we went to Sunday school every Sunday. We had Sunday school every Sunday, but we only had church once a month. And then the second Sunday we go on down to another community to another church. That's the way it was in those days. And they still have it like that today.	17:03
Kisha Turner	Was it one preacher or something?	17:19
Hortense Spence Williams	One preacher. Well you had a pastor.	17:21
Kisha Turner	Okay.	17:24
Hortense Spence Williams	I guess I'm—No, it was a different pastor for each church.	17:24
Kisha Turner	Okay.	17:28
Hortense Spence Williams	And in the meantime, you should see the church today. We were up there on Memorial Day. I was baptized in a creek, they have a beautiful swimming pool, electricity, the lawn, the grass is so pretty and green. They just add on a fellowship hall. And back in those days, when I was coming up, it was an old table outside, but it had a cover on it, and in August everybody brought food to feed the family. And families would come from all over the country. But I was very peculiar about eating. But my mother was a very good cook, so she had plenty cake and everything for us to eat.	17:28
Kisha Turner	Okay.	18:10
Hortense Spence Williams	So in the meantime—But today you don't do that, you don't have to stand outside. They have a fellowship hall and a dining room, a kitchen and everything where after funerals and all, because all immediate family's buried up there, and after the funeral they always feed the family.	18:17
Kisha Turner	Okay.	18:38
Hortense Spence Williams	Well it's not outside, it's inside with heat, air condition, everything. When I was a little girl, we had to sit there and fan the flies, because the only way to get air in there was to open the windows. There was no electricity.	18:38
Kisha Turner	What was the name of this church?	18:55
Hortense Spence Williams	Macedonia Baptist Church.	18:59
Kisha Turner	Macedonia. You said that you taught Sunday school. Were women ever part of the leadership in the church or anything like that?	19:11
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes, my mother was always the treasurer—	19:12
Kisha Turner	Okay.	19:13
Hortense Spence Williams	—because she was there. She was the treasurer of the Sunday school for years, because she was a very honest, hardworking woman. And we sang in the choir, all of my sisters sang in the choir. So we stayed active in the church, which followed me today.	19:16
Kisha Turner	How about, what kinds of things did you all do for recreation or just for socializing? If you ever had an opportunity to do that before you moved away.	19:34
Hortense Spence Williams	Well like I say, back in those days. Look at the youth today, which you can just read when you get out there. I have a citation from Norfolk State University for working with the youth in Tidewater. And it hurts me to see the difference in the youth today from what they were when I was coming along, because all we had to do is play ball.	19:41
Kisha Turner	Baseball?	20:09
Hortense Spence Williams	Baseball, played baseball. I don't think we hardly knew what a volleyball was. I learned that when I went to college—	20:10
Kisha Turner	Okay.	20:13
Hortense Spence Williams	—because back of my dormitory we had a volleyball section for us to play ball at St. Paul's when I went back. But at home all we did was just play in the yard, play under the house or play. we did play a little ball and things like that. But as far as recreation, it wasn't much going on. But no one got in trouble like they do today.	20:16
Kisha Turner	You said that you lived in an area with White families around you.	20:41
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes.	20:52
Kisha Turner	What did you consider your community, like people you interacted with, was it at church and school or was it in the neighborhood with families who surrounded you?	20:55
Hortense Spence Williams	Well, it seemed as though, and I'm not prejudice—	21:04
Kisha Turner	Oh okay.	21:09
Hortense Spence Williams	—but by my father being able to, we were the most educated family in the community. And by my father being so aggressive and having his truck line, and being able to send up to school, we felt more secure, I think, than most families in the community. So we basically never communicated much with the Whites. There were some White families that were nice and there was some that were very prejudice, so we basically stayed to ourselves, my family. Because one thing good about being a large family, you have sisters and brothers, and that makes a big difference.	21:10
Kisha Turner	Contained, you have everything right there, right?	21:49
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes.	21:51
Kisha Turner	And what about other Black businesses owned by Black people in that area?	21:54
Hortense Spence Williams	Well basically, most people worked on a farm. They farms, most of them. Some owned the land and some didn't. That's right.	22:00
Kisha Turner	Okay. Now, you moved to Norfolk in '48?	22:08
Hortense Spence Williams	I came to Norfolk in 40—You're saying when. Did I come that summer or next—Yeah, I came in '48. I did.	22:15
Kisha Turner	Okay.	22:24
Hortense Spence Williams	No, I came to Portsmouth. I lived with my sister.	22:25
Kisha Turner	Okay. So why, why did you move to—	22:27
Hortense Spence Williams	I moved because my sister, my oldest sister lived in Portsmouth, Virginia. She was teaching school and my brother-in-law was teaching school. And I really hadn't decided what I wanted to do, even after I finished school, so I started out manicuring and specializing in facials in these barber salons. As I say, back in those days they were barbershops. And I worked in seven shops before I went in business. And I was walking through one of the last one that I worked in before going in business one day, and something said to me, you got to do better than this. I knew that I had the wisdom and the vision, and the aggressiveness to be like my father. So a young man came along and said, "Hortense, let's go in business. Let's go in business." Well he was more financially fit to do it than me, but we made an agreement and I decided to go in business.	22:30
Kisha Turner	When was this?	23:39
Hortense Spence Williams	This was in 1930—Deduct 37 from 95. How many years is that? 37 from 95.	23:40
Kisha Turner	I'm not good at this.	23:40
Hortense Spence Williams	You not?	23:40
Kisha Turner	No.	23:40
Hortense Spence Williams	Don't say that. Now I don't want to [indistinct 00:23:53].	23:40
Kisha Turner	Okay, so we established in 1958, around 1958.	23:40
Hortense Spence Williams	Uh-huh. That's true.	23:40
Kisha Turner	Okay.	23:40
Hortense Spence Williams	On Church Street.	23:40
Kisha Turner	Okay, so you had moved to Norfolk by this time. When did you leave Portsmouth or are they—	24:07
Hortense Spence Williams	I moved to Norfolk, was it in the—No, I was still living in Portsmouth. I was still living in Portsmouth even after I went in business, because I remember I used to catch two tunnel buses in the morning and two tunnel buses back in the evening. I was still living in Portsmouth. Right. I had my own apartment. I wasn't still living with my sister.	24:13
Kisha Turner	You had your own place in Portsmouth.	24:23
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes.	24:23
Kisha Turner	How long did you live with your sister before were able to get—	24:23
Hortense Spence Williams	I lived with my sister a good two years.	24:23
Kisha Turner	Okay.	24:23
Hortense Spence Williams	I mean, because as I say, I was very aggressive, I got out on my own. It wasn't what I wanted, but it was just being independent. Kind of—	24:26
Kisha Turner	Oh, go ahead.	24:47
Hortense Spence Williams	I already [indistinct 00:24:51].	24:47
Kisha Turner	I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm sorry.	24:52
Hortense Spence Williams	No, that's all right.	24:53
Kisha Turner	What was the community like in Portsmouth? How did it differ from what you knew before?	24:55
Hortense Spence Williams	A lot, because Portsmouth was larger. I joined a Baptist church over there, which I stayed 25 years and I was made a trustee, Zion Baptist Church. I'm a former pastor. And it was, Portsmouth was more of a city than Emporia.	25:05
Kisha Turner	Okay.	25:20
Hortense Spence Williams	And after my business, we set up the business and it started growing, I decided to move to Norfolk and have been—Right now I live in Virginia Beach at my own home there.	25:24
Kisha Turner	And what was this business?	25:42
Hortense Spence Williams	Norfolk.	25:42
Kisha Turner	What business did you established?	25:48
Hortense Spence Williams	Oh, Hor—	25:49
Kisha Turner	Hortense.	25:49
Hortense Spence Williams	Hortense's Barber Salon.	25:49
Kisha Turner	Okay.	25:53
Hortense Spence Williams	That was set back, and over 37 years ago it was barber shop.	25:53
Kisha Turner	Okay.	25:56
Hortense Spence Williams	Now it's barber salon. But I'll tell you this, if you know how America grows and things change, I could have called my shop on Church Street 37 years ago, a salon those days, because that's when process was very popular. Processing, the men were very much into processing the hair.	25:58
Kisha Turner	Really?	26:18
Hortense Spence Williams	They would use this chemical to, it was a relaxer. And I would sit in my shop until one o'clock in the morning waiting for my—	26:26
Kisha Turner	Don't they call it conk or is that different?	26:30
Hortense Spence Williams	No, it's the same thing, but the professional word is processing.	26:33
Kisha Turner	Okay.	26:36
Hortense Spence Williams	Processing—	26:36
Kisha Turner	Okay.	26:36
Hortense Spence Williams	—that's what they called it. But we like the conk, they called it. But there was a relaxer for it—	26:37
Kisha Turner	Okay.	26:43
Hortense Spence Williams	—and that was very popular. And I had the largest business for a long time in that, because one side of my shop up there we cut hair on, the other side, the barber's processed hair.	26:43
Kisha Turner	This was on Church Street?	27:00
Hortense Spence Williams	Yeah, that was on Church Street. Which that style has gone out, been gone for many years.	27:01
Kisha Turner	What was Church Street like then when you first opened your business.	27:06
Hortense Spence Williams	Oh, was nothing but Jews and Whites. And Blacks owned a lot of buildings, and there are many barber salons up there, beauty shops, basically. And all our Black doctors and lawyers were on Church Street in the same area that I had my business, because of segregation. They could not go downtown and open an office. I'll never forget, he was a good law friend of mine, he's deceased now, he was a first Black lawyer to go downtown, Victor Ashe, and open an office. And he told me before he passed, that even after the Civil Rights Bill was passed and he was able to move down there, they would come and take the name off his door, spit on his door and still wouldn't accept him for a long, long time.	27:11
Hortense Spence Williams	And so after he moved, eventually the doctors and all started venturing out. Because when I started my business, the Black doctors—See my husband was a doctor, but we divorced. And the Black doctors could not get on the staff at the White hospitals. See, we had our own hospital. We had, oh, over 500 Black hospitals in this country, but if we have 10 today. We still were able to keep North Community Hospital over here, but it's basically it's combined, the psychiatric center and hospital. And still, it has been able to survive, but most Black hospitals all over the country have closed.	27:59
Kisha Turner	That happened to a lot of Black businesses?	28:50
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes.	28:52
Kisha Turner	Do you see that—Since you were here, during the time you were here, did you see a lot of Black businesses close down?	28:53
Hortense Spence Williams	I have seen more Black businesses survive. I have to bring in a good friend of mine, a man I highly respected, Bishop L. E. Willis. He is a man that started, and he'll tell you, that he started out with an 11th grade education. He has 27 radio stations. He owns the building right up here on the corner.	29:00
Kisha Turner	Really?	29:35
Hortense Spence Williams	L. E. Willis. L. E. Willis. It's called Willis Broadcasting.	29:37
Kisha Turner	Okay.	29:40
Hortense Spence Williams	I'm sorry I can't get to one of his books. I know it's one down there right now.	29:40
Kisha Turner	Okay.	29:43
Hortense Spence Williams	Because he was a good supporter to Norfolk State University when we had these basketball tournaments. And I have to admire him because he was a self-made man. He's had a hard time, had his ups and downs. And when we were—We go back to the Atlantic National Bank that the minority organization started. It was about to fold and he was able to come in and buy up the stock, and save the bank for quite a few years until we decided to sell the stock to the majority. Which, it's right across the street there. Majority owns it now.	29:44
Kisha Turner	Okay.	30:29
Hortense Spence Williams	But I have to admire him because he's a self-made man. He's still in business with all these radio stations. But most of the Black businesses in Tidewater, as I told you, came in through the minority organization, came in through the minority organization. That's how they got the contracts—	30:31
Kisha Turner	Okay.	30:51
Hortense Spence Williams	—because Lyndon Baines Johnson proposed all this money. That's when Ronald Reagan took office. That's when we had a lot of downfalls, far as the minority's concerned and cutting back, and terminating a lot of these organizations. So that kind of made—Because you have to think about it, but when I was still back in back in Lyndon Baines Johnson days, even I hired a young lady once that was on the welfare and they had a program called the WIN Program.	30:51
Kisha Turner	I've heard about that.	31:23
Hortense Spence Williams	Right, for people on the corner, had no education, on the welfare. The welfare would send them to barber school, cosmetology, nursing, whatever. But, when them Republicans took over, that was terminated, so things change, time go on. And I can see more and more conservatism coming back in America. I don't know if all of us are aware of it, but like Affirmative Action, it's getting harder and harder for us. And I've always tried to do what I can for my people, that's why I've been and I've given many—I have a reputation for giving many Black young men jobs that come out of the penitentiary.	31:24
Hortense Spence Williams	Someone has to [indistinct 00:32:18]. I believe in giving them. Someone has to do it. I believe in giving you a break the second time until you—Now there are some I have given—I have one I send a care package, he's been in there just about all his life. He came out in October after four and a half years. This is the third time I've given him a break. He stayed out here about six weeks, but he went back and broke his parole, so I told him I was through with him. I'll give you two breaks, but three, four, five, I can't because I feel as though you're not ready to follow the system.	32:17
Kisha Turner	Let's talk a little bit about Tidewater. Is this a community?	32:56
Hortense Spence Williams	Tidewater, now it's called Hampton Roads.	33:05
Kisha Turner	Okay.	33:06
Hortense Spence Williams	Hampton Roads.	33:07
Kisha Turner	Well what are the boundaries of this community? Is it like—	33:08
Hortense Spence Williams	It's a seaboard area. Navy yard, shipyard and this Navy base, Fort Monroe, Fort Eustis, all around us. That's why Tidewater has been, or Hampton Road I should say, they had to end up naming it Hampton Roads because Williamsburg, Newport News, Hampton, Norfolk, Virginia Beach and all, it's called Hampton. Even down to Suffolk, which has a lot of land. Chesapeake, I can't leave Chesapeake out. We've been able to keep so many jobs going because it's a—	33:16
Speaker 1	Trying to get in the heat. Come in quiet.	33:55
Hortense Spence Williams	—area for government contracts, shipyard, Navy yard, like I say, federal, so that helps the area to be named Hampton Roads, and it's growing more and more.	34:04
Kisha Turner	When you opened the store on Church Street, how big were the Black community in Norfolk?	34:11
Hortense Spence Williams	I can't give you number of Blacks. Is that what you mean?	34:17
Kisha Turner	Well just like, what roads kind of were the boundaries that you think marked the Black community or define the Black community in Norfolk.	34:27
Hortense Spence Williams	Well, we were very much together. We had to be in the same communities as far as business is concerned. There were very few of us own McDonald's franchises. I have a friend in Nashville, Tennessee, he and his brother owned six McDonald's one time. He started right here in Norfolk, one did. And back in those days when I was on Church Street, there were very few, and we have a—there very few minorities that owned contracts like they do now for Burger King and McDonald's, and all.	34:34
Hortense Spence Williams	But in this area, we are grateful to say that we have the baseball player. Cut that off one minute. Did all one night, Winfield, when I believed in baseball, all-star player and Bland forms and organization. I can't remember now, but I know they have a majority of the Burger Kings in some parts of Virginia. Because less than a year ago, I think it was, they opened one on Hampton University's campus and the company's name is TyMark, but they own quite a few Burger Kings in the state of Virginia. I admire them very much.	35:10
Hortense Spence Williams	And a friend of mine, he moved back to Nashville, Tennessee, he owned two McDonald's here, but he decided to sellout to Nashville with his brother. So, but our contractors around here have done very well. They're still doing very well. But as I say, came in through [indistinct 00:36:30].	36:08
Kisha Turner	Right. Okay. Before we talk about the National Business League and how you all started the Tidewater area Business League, can you tell me, did you encounter any resistance, I don't know, from men, you cutting hair, a woman cutting?	36:37
Hortense Spence Williams	No.	36:53
Kisha Turner	Okay.	36:53
Hortense Spence Williams	Men really enjoy that.	36:54
Kisha Turner	Okay.	36:54
Hortense Spence Williams	Enjoy that. Really enjoy that because there was a time in Norfolk, getting back to segregation, that Black barbers work in White shops. They were the operators, but no Blacks could come in for service. They'd have to go [indistinct 00:37:13]. Hmm?	36:59
Kisha Turner	Okay, we were talking about you cutting Black men's hair and how you said that wasn't a problem for a woman to cut their hair.	37:12
Hortense Spence Williams	No, they enjoyed that.	37:12
Kisha Turner	You said Black barbers—	37:12
Hortense Spence Williams	Right.	37:12
Kisha Turner	—usually cut White men's hair. Is that what it was?	37:12
Hortense Spence Williams	No, I was telling you that when I first started the business, I remember downtown we had a lot of professional barbers cutting White people's hair—	37:18
Kisha Turner	Okay.	37:42
Hortense Spence Williams	—and taking appointments as we are doing stay here. But Black people could not go in the barber salon. Same goes for beauty shop.	37:42
Kisha Turner	So Black women did White women's hair?	37:53
Hortense Spence Williams	No, back in those days, I'll never forget, it's a beauty school right downtown today that refused to take minority students, because the operator said they did not know how to use—Back in those days Black women were using straightening combs and all of this, and they had no way—they didn't know how to keep teach the students, so they refused to, excuse me, allow Black students to come to the school.	38:07
Kisha Turner	Okay.	38:24
Hortense Spence Williams	Segregation.	38:24
Kisha Turner	So you never—	38:24
Hortense Spence Williams	Excuse me.	38:24
Kisha Turner	So you've always cut—	38:31
Hortense Spence Williams	Black.	38:32
Kisha Turner	—Black men.	38:34
Hortense Spence Williams	Well, yeah. And sometimes we have White customers walk in.	38:35
Kisha Turner	Oh, okay.	38:38
Hortense Spence Williams	Transit. But we don't depend on them—	38:39
Kisha Turner	Right.	38:42
Hortense Spence Williams	—excuse me, because basically, like I say, I can't down the White man for not knowing how to cut Black hair. As a Black barber has always been able to cut the White hair, because the Black race has every grade of hair in the world in it, every grade, from the most straight until the kinky hair. So we had to learn how to cut every grade of half, which the White—Well I shouldn't say, I should say the majority race has basically not quite the same grade, but it's straight.	38:43
Kisha Turner	Right.	39:38
Hortense Spence Williams	So they had no reason really years back during slavery time, before Civil Rights Bill passed to know how to cut our hair. Now when I was on Church Street, I was the only one that was willing to hire a White barber, but he finished the Black barber school, Jenkins Barber College. I hired him.	39:39
Kisha Turner	Okay.	39:55
Hortense Spence Williams	But he didn't work too long, but he was pretty fair at cutting our hair, because he finished the Black barber school.	39:55
Kisha Turner	When did you move to this location?	40:10
Hortense Spence Williams	I moved in the plaza—Oh, let me see. I was up there 15 years. I've been down 15, from 30—No, I've been down here 20 some years in the plaza. I'd say a good 23 years ago.	40:12
Kisha Turner	Okay. Okay, can we talk now about the national—You were saying Booker T Washington started the National Business League.	40:33
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes.	40:37
Kisha Turner	And—	40:37
Hortense Spence Williams	You know Earl Graves, you heard of him?	40:37
Kisha Turner	Earl Graves?	40:37
Hortense Spence Williams	Mm-hmm—	40:37
Kisha Turner	Mm-hmm.	40:37
Hortense Spence Williams	—owner of Black Enterprise. This is how he got started. And I love and highly respect him. I got to renew my subscription now. I love his magazine. This is how he got started, in through the National Business League. When this organization was strong, we had the convention here one time. I'll never forget meeting Earl Graves. Now today, he's one of the biggest big Black businessmen in the country. That's right. But he started in through the National Business League.	40:42
Kisha Turner	Okay.	41:12
Hortense Spence Williams	Many more.	41:15
Kisha Turner	And you said Dr. [indistinct 00:41:19] Tucker started the local chapter—	41:16
Hortense Spence Williams	Right.	41:21
Kisha Turner	—in 1964.	41:21
Hortense Spence Williams	Right.	41:23
Kisha Turner	And you were the first woman and the only woman. Now, did you have to deal with any, I don't know, patriarchal kind of attitudes, like you being a woman in an all male environment?	41:23
Hortense Spence Williams	Well, I learned being in business so long, it's according the way you approach people. It's your attitude and your personality. And I have never had a problem in approaching people and with them accepting what I had to say to them as far as joining the organization. I think that's why Dr. Tucker made me chairman of the membership, because of my personality. And I love people. I love working with people and it could be male or female. I love people. And you do have to have, it takes a lot of patience. Takes patience for what you're doing, but you have a nice smile, so that helps and you're very patient.	41:37
Kisha Turner	Okay. Would you mind talking a little then about how that organization came into being and what its role was and continues to be with Black businesses? Is it interracial now or is it still Black businesses?	42:31
Hortense Spence Williams	Well, I'll say it was basically for the minority, and you know what comes under that. It can be who?	42:47
Kisha Turner	Black people.	42:49
Hortense Spence Williams	Yeah, [indistinct 00:42:57].	42:49
Kisha Turner	And Korean?	42:49
Hortense Spence Williams	Yeah.	42:49
Kisha Turner	Korean people.	42:49
Hortense Spence Williams	I mean, yeah, all those could be, Asian. So, the one that the majority call them when they help them.	42:49
Kisha Turner	Okay.	42:49
Hortense Spence Williams	So, I admire Dr. B.J. Tucker. After we read about it and he read about it, he said he thought about it and he said, "Lyndon Baines Johnson done post all this money for the minority. Booker T. Washington founded the National Business League and we should be able to help our people if we only can get a charter." So he took it among himself, knowing about [indistinct 00:43:37] in Washington, DC, to go up there and put up $1000 and get the charter and bring it back to Norfolk, Virginia. This is for us to get some of that $66 million Lyndon Baines Johnson had proposed. And so, I'll never forget the first meeting that we had. I was the only female and there was seven Black men on Brambleton Avenue.	43:05
Hortense Spence Williams	And from there, for the information we got from Mr. Burt [indistinct 00:44:07], who came down from Washington and met with us, and told us what way to go. And as far as having the vision, and the aggressiveness and the mentality to push on to help our people we formed this organization. And we went around and got so many business people, professional people on the board. We formed a large board, 22 people. And from there we went to, as I say, Dr. Tucker chose Mr. Raymond Jones and I, well he made me chairman of it. And I had more people on the committee to build up the membership. And my being in public life I knew a lot of people. So I went around and brought strong people in, strong leading people—Hey, Brook, thank you dear.	44:03
Speaker 2	Take care.	45:02
Hortense Spence Williams	—to build up the organization.	45:02
Hortense Spence Williams	And so, we started meeting once a month. Once a month. And we went on and on like that for two years. And we started growing so until—I'll take it James.	45:03
Speaker 3	You the man?	45:18
Hortense Spence Williams	I'll take it. We started growing until we said, "It's more money out there in Washington. And the contractors, we can help the contractors." In the beginning, most of the contractors still weren't bonded, so we merged with the contractors at Tidewater so they could get bonded and receive some of these contracts from the government. So we named it the Tidewater Area Business and Contractors Association and it got larger and larger.	45:21
Hortense Spence Williams	Now it's one organization, one man, Holland Valentine, he has got some of the largest—he receives some of the largest contracts. He was in these computers, computer business. What is his man's name? Ran as Independent during our election.	45:47

Hortense Spence Williams	No, let me tell you about him. Yeah, it was one big contract. We got a gentleman here, he was a board member, he was chairman of the board once and everything. Very strong Black man, Herman Valentine. Graduated from Norfolk State University and he received the minority contract from the government. He was in the same business, off-record, as Ross Perot.	0:02
Kisha Turner	Okay.	0:34
Hortense Spence Williams	He was successful and he went on, he set a large example for the community and he's still in business today, SMA [indistinct 00:00:41] I had to mention him because he was a great businessman.	0:34
Kisha Turner	Okay. What's SMA stand for?	0:52
Hortense Spence Williams	Small—I know this. Lord have mercy.	1:12
Kisha Turner	Let me turn it off. Okay, systems management. That's the work he's doing.	1:12
Hortense Spence Williams	Yes.	1:12
Kisha Turner	That's the kind of work? Okay.	1:12
Hortense Spence Williams	That's the name of the business. Systems Management Association. Excuse me. SMA.	1:12
Kisha Turner	I guess the final thing we can discuss, what about, what was it like here after you came here in '48, after World War II? Do you remember, after World War II? In that time after?	1:13
Hortense Spence Williams	As I say, most Blacks had a lot of businesses. We had a savings and loan here, Berkley Citizens Savings and Loan. That was very strong at one time. And we had that right on the corner of Brambleton and Virginia Beach Boulevard at Church Street, not [indistinct 00:01:42] far from where I went in business. That was very strong one time. And Blacks owned a lot of property up there, and Jews on Church Street.	1:30
Hortense Spence Williams	They decided now to—at this time today, we have two Black-owned shopping centers in the same area where I started my business on Church Street. So we were able to get some of that land and reinvest, some Blacks were.	2:09
Kisha Turner	Do you remember the soldiers returning?	2:21
Hortense Spence Williams	No. I tell you now, I should. I don't know how I've [indistinct 00:02:36] you all this time. Let me to give you a book before you leave. I have my pictures in it. Joseph Jordan. I don't know how I've gone this far to not remember my good deceased friend, he's deceased now. He was paralyzed in World War II.	2:31
Hortense Spence Williams	He was the first Black city councilman in Norfolk. He came along. He was a good friend of mine. I cut his hair up till death when he passed away three years ago. He proposed a monument for Church Street, which at this time, they raised quite a bit of money and it shouldn't be long before it's built. It sits right in the middle of Church Street and Brambleton, sits right in the middle of Brambleton Avenue. I proposed the building because that was the time they were getting ready to tear down Church Street. So we were good friends. But I came up and his idea went through to build the monument, but we haven't built it yet right there. It won't be long I don't think.	2:53
Hortense Spence Williams	But anyway, he wrote a book and I have gone with him to Williamsburg off the James River where the slaves landed. He had put all this land up there that he was getting all revitalized and built up to be a Black culture center off the James River where the slaves landed, Williamsburg. He was working on that before he passed. And he proposed this monument. He wrote a book. The book was to be sold to raise money for this culture center, but he passed before he could finish that. He passed before the monument was completed. But he was a great man. He made judgeship. He retired from the judgeship to build this Black culture center. But he deceased. But he was paralyzed in a wheelchair, got paralyzed in World War II.	4:02
Kisha Turner	Do you remember the early civil rights activities in this area?	5:11
Hortense Spence Williams	Civil rights. I remember when this area was integrated, [indistinct 00:05:26] We were able, because I'll never forget, I was still in college. [indistinct 00:05:36] I visit my sister in Portsmouth, we went in Woolworth, my nephew and I did, which was her son. We went to the counter. The lady told me, "We don't serve Black here, you have to go to the [indistinct 00:06:01]" And I said, "Butch, come on, let's go. I can't take this." Because I'm still in college. So I do remember when the restaurants and all were integrated. I remember that and it made a difference. But I can't say, we as Blacks, we have to think more for ourselves. We cannot ask the government to finance us.	5:24
Hortense Spence Williams	I just started the program when it was in my church, family and community service. The First Baptist church, Bute Street, it's a great church. We have a lot of programs in there for the youth. We have a great tutoring program where we've combined with some of kids in the parks. We have tutoring every Thursday evening, headed by my pastor's wife. In through this program, I've been able to give computers, books.	6:22
Hortense Spence Williams	My husband, ex-husband, was a doctor and I started back, years back, when we had the minority organization, we started this tournament, going out collecting money from our Black doctors. What they would do would let me keep the tickets for the tournament and I would put the tickets in the churches, the Y, and I would tell them that the tickets were for underprivileged children and the gym would be loaded. And Dr. Wilson, president of Norfolk State University can tell you, there were many, many, many youth there because of the support of the Black doctor, and the Black businesses also, that's why I go back to Bishop Willis. He [indistinct 00:07:41] with us going on the radio, selling the tickets. And he were all for, I think, I know he paid for the luncheon.	6:56
Hortense Spence Williams	For tournament, you have four teams and we have a luncheon-press conference the day the tournament start and you have to feed all the teams. So I would always go out and get a sponsor to pay for the luncheon. And the community was very supportive to Norfolk State University.	7:50
Hortense Spence Williams	But this is where I come in on, I've always tried to help the youth and underprivileged kids. So I received a citation from Norfolk State University a couple years ago for that. Because I feel as though we need to reach out more because to look at our youth today, if we don't do it, who's going to do it? The world owes you nothing. Although I know we've had a hard time, we haven't always been treated right and everything. But we need to look up more and look at ourselves more. I think our mind sometimes goes back to that slave mentality, divide and conquer. But it's time to get away from that. That's why I try to grow more and more and help the community and the underprivileged, someone is less fortunate than I am.	8:11
Kisha Turner	Thank you.	8:57
Hortense Spence Williams	Okay.	8:57
Kisha Turner	Was it difficult to establish your business? The man you were talking about first had the idea of opening a business?	9:15
Hortense Spence Williams	No, I had the idea.	9:17
Kisha Turner	Oh, you had the idea?	9:17
Hortense Spence Williams	Because I said I didn't go to college for this. I had to do better. Then I said I'm like my father. I love people and I want to be in business.	9:17
Kisha Turner	Okay.	9:17
Hortense Spence Williams	So that I was able to meet another party that wanted to go in business and then I bought him out two years later and was on my own. But by my father being a businessman, coming from a family as I came from, that business is something, if you weak, you better not go into it because you run into a lot of surprises.	9:32
Kisha Turner	Right.	10:00
Hortense Spence Williams	There are times that my employees would get in trouble. And this business is personal. It's something like doctor or lawyer, the public wants that person to cut their hair. If you have an employee, a barber, work for you that has the majority of the business, if he get in trouble, it's nothing for you to do, go and try to get him out because he carries your business. It's not like a McDonald's and stuff. It has a name, McDonald's. You build a name like I built the name, Hortense's Salon. But your employee, the stylist, is really the one who runs the business. This is who you have to depend on. I can't run this business alone. I have my clientele and my barbers have theirs. That's what makes a business like this successful.	10:00
Kisha Turner	Was it hard to start? I mean—	10:41
Hortense Spence Williams	Okay, Mr. Brown, nice seeing you.	10:57
Speaker 1	All right.	11:05
Hortense Spence Williams	It wasn't too hard for me, as I said, because I think I had some of my fathers instinct. And by working in several hair salons before going in business, I had abreast of what it was like to run a shop. Now working for someone else is not like being in business for yourself. So I learned that, but by working in other shops so long, it helped me as far as I learned a lot because when I first went in business, I tell you, I didn't have no credit. Without good friends, I had good people. That's why I said, in this world, [indistinct 00:11:45] if you don't understand what your mentality, your attitude, your personality means, it really is great.	11:05
Hortense Spence Williams	Don't go by [indistinct 00:11:55] because I'm ready for some chicken.	11:54
Speaker 2	[indistinct 00:11:58]	11:56
Hortense Spence Williams	I haven't eaten anything. Excuse me.	11:59
Kisha Turner	Okay.	12:01
Hortense Spence Williams	Oh Lord.	12:02
Kisha Turner	Oh no, that's fine.	12:03
Hortense Spence Williams	No, it's, no, you can erase that. Can't you? I forget.	12:04
Kisha Turner	That's okay.	12:12
Hortense Spence Williams	Sorry.	12:12
Kisha Turner	Okay.	12:12

Item Info

Title:

Hortense Williams interview recording, 1995 July 17

Date:

July 17, 1995

Creator:

Williams, Hortense Spence

Contributor:

Turner, Kisha

Description:

Name: Hortense Spence Williams; Date of birth: 1928; Place of birth: Emporia, VA; Occupation(s): hair stylist; Residence: Norfolk, VA
Informant ID: 977; Interviewed by: Kisha Turner.

Occupation:

Hair stylist

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1346
7e3ee3ba-cef9-418a-86ba-7db07630da3a
behindtheveil
75f0e94d-900b-4921-a869-9e9bd7d3746d
ark:/87924/r4086ff5q
75f0e94d-900b-4921-a869-9e9bd7d3746d

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4086ff5q

Sponsor:

Sponsor this Digital Collection

Hortense Williams interview recording, 1995 July 17

Transcript

Item Info

1. Hortense Williams administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options

Hortense Williams interview recording, 1995 July 17

Transcript

Item Info

Related Items

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options