Lucille Grimstead interview recording, 1995 July 18

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Lucille Tucker Grimstead	My full name?	0:03
Mary Hebert	Yes.	0:04
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	My maiden name is Lucille Ame Tucker.	0:06
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm.	0:08
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Until I married.	0:08
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm.	0:08
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	A young man by the name of Arthur Grimstead. And then I changed my name.	0:10
Mary Hebert	Grimstead. And what year were you born in?	0:21
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	1912.	0:22
Mary Hebert	1912?	0:24
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	June the 19th. The year 1912.	0:25
Mary Hebert	Were you born in Norfolk, or Virginia Beach?	0:31
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No. At that time I was born, I [indistinct 00:00:38], my mother said.	0:34
Mary Hebert	Could you just hang on one sec. Just one second. [INTERRUPTION 00:00:48] Virginia Beach.	0:44
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	It was Princess Anne County, this place then was called Princess Anne County. A little place, I think it was in London Bridge, what you call it, London Bridge, was named that everybody called it "that swamp."	0:50
Mary Hebert	The swamp?	1:06
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	That's where that was— London Bridge, everybody said we're going out swamp, down the swamp road.	1:09
Mary Hebert	What did your parents do for a living?	1:14
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	My daddy, he was a engineer. He was a worked on boilers around, brick kilns and things like that.	1:17
Mary Hebert	So he—	1:30
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	And most of the time he stayed in West Virginia working on coal mines, down in West Virginia, but he'd come back.	1:31
Mary Hebert	So he'd come back and [indistinct 00:01:44].	1:42
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	He would come back, spend a season [indistinct 00:01:49]—I don't know how long he'd been. But I know he used to come home for us in the wintertime.	1:45
Mary Hebert	When it was too cold to work in the mines, I guess.	1:56
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, he'd come back to Princess Anne County.	1:57
Mary Hebert	And would he work in Princess Anne County?	2:01
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Boiler. He worked on boilers.	2:05
Mary Hebert	On the barges?	2:05
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, boiler.	2:05
Mary Hebert	Oh.	2:06
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Boilers that make the bricks, used to be a brick kiln. And they made the bricks by steam.	2:07
Mary Hebert	So he would man the boilers?	2:13
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, keep them going.	2:15
Mary Hebert	Did your mother work?	2:19
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Domestic work.	2:20
Mary Hebert	In Princess Anne County also, or would she come out to Norfolk?	2:24
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, everything was done Virginia Beach, in Princess Anne.	2:30
Mary Hebert	Did you ever go with her to work? Did you ever go?	2:37
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No. I stayed with my grandmother while she did her days work.	2:42
Mary Hebert	Would she leave early in the morning and come back late in the evening?	2:43
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	She'd leave around on a trolley car. And the trolley car run around about 7:30, and she would return back to home around 5:30 the trolley.	2:49
Mary Hebert	Would she ever bring things from the house she worked?	3:02
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I don't remember.	3:07
Mary Hebert	Food, clothes.	3:08
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, I don't remember that.	3:09
Mary Hebert	Would she tell you about the people she worked for? Did you ever hear stories about what their house was like?	3:10
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, she worked for another—Well, it was her aunt. And she went to Virginia Beach and picked up laundry. She had a horse and a cart. And she would go down the Atlantic Avenue, and she would come back in with her cart loaded with clothes. And my mother used to stay at her house, and they would iron, with flat irons, on top the cook stove. They'd heat the irons.	3:16
Mary Hebert	Would they?	3:54
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	They had a cook—Well, a big flat top stove. They had electric then. They heated irons on the stove. And they walked back from the fire to the room, to the room and picking up the ironing to iron. And they done the guest clothes from the beach.	3:57
Mary Hebert	So they were doing laundry for people in the hotels?	4:17
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	In the hotel.	4:20
Mary Hebert	Would you ever go along with them when they picked up the clothes?	4:24
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No.	4:26
Mary Hebert	No.	4:26
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I stayed up at grandmamma.	4:27
Mary Hebert	So your grandmother took care of you most of—	4:29
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Most of the time I stayed with grandma.	4:31
Mary Hebert	When your mom was working. Did she ever tell you about what life was like when she was growing up?	4:33
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Well I heard Mama say, yeah, her mother had eight children, I think, and she was the oldest one. They lived on a farm. And she had to stay—Grandmamma and them used to work in the field. And she didn't ever get no higher than the third grade, because she had to stay at the house, she was the oldest one, and take care the smaller children while grandpapa and grandmamma was in the field chopping. [Indistinct 00:05:12]. You used a hoe, you had to thin everything there with hoes, while they was working in the field. And she was the oldest girl.	4:39
Mary Hebert	So she had to take care of the house.	5:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Take care of the smaller children.	5:25
Mary Hebert	Children.	5:25
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	See, then grandmamma would put the pot on the stove. I don't know how they cooked. I don't reckon anybody cooked in the fireplace or where they cooked. I knew that grandmamma used to often talk about she had a big pot she'd hang up in the chimney. I don't know, I don't remember that, I just hear 'em.	5:26
Mary Hebert	That was what she told you about what it was like when she was—	5:45
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, just hang up in the chimney.	5:47
Mary Hebert	And did she want you to go to school? Was that something that that was important to her, for you to get an education?	5:50
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yes. If I grew up to be school age, my daddy was going back and forth, see Momma was married then. And life was better for Momma and we three children. Because my daddy, he went to Pennsylvania, to the coal mine, and then he would come back and my daddy, he was a teacher, he taught. My daddy was from [indistinct 00:06:27] Virginia. And a long ways then when he came back, with a trade in four years, they didn't have no college in the beginning. But he learned to taught other people how to work on boilers. I reckon that's a skill, learning.	5:56
Mary Hebert	So he would teach the other people how to [indistinct 00:06:47].	6:44
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	He worked on boilers, and then he was in the coal mining where they keep them—I don't know what that look like up there where he was at.	6:46
Mary Hebert	You never went [indistinct 00:06:56].	6:55
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, no, no. My mother never didn't leave from around Lynnhaven, the place where I lived at was called Lynnhaven town. She never go farther than Norfolk than Lynnhaven, Virginia Beach that's far as my mother got.	6:56
Mary Hebert	So she wouldn't go—	7:10
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	She didn't go until after we was married then integration got better, she started traveling.	7:12
Mary Hebert	Was the fact that there wasn't any integration on the buses a reason that she didn't want to travel, that she would have to ride it he back of the bus?	7:20
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, I rode on the back of the bus, we couldn't ride when I was going to school, when I was riding on the trolley car. We would get on the bus at Lynnhaven—get on the trolley car, it wasn't no bus. Rail, everything was on the rail, because it wasn't no road for buses around here.	7:28
Mary Hebert	It was dirt roads and stuff?	7:47
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Well, the dirt road, but no bus could travel.	7:48
Mary Hebert	Right.	7:51
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Plus, the road was so small. And we used to ride on the trolley car, had conductors, they'd go around and pick up your fare. And sometimes we got on the bus at Lynnhaven— Or, the trolley at Lynnhaven, the other White children would get on the bus ahead of us. And they would sit, scraggly legs, keep us from sitting. Sometimes we used to have to stand from Lynnhaven, all the way to Oceana to school. And the conductor would make the children go to the front, but they would spread all over the back, we would have to stand.	7:51
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	So one day—I have an aunt, she made up her mind that she was tired of standing, they was laughing, fun of—you know how those trolley cars rocked back and forth. We had to hold on [indistinct 00:08:44] because we couldn't put our hand on the back of they seats. We were just standing there shaking back and forth. So my aunt, Martha, she got a briar bush, right on the ditchbank and got a briar longer than her—Old folks used to cut the hedgerows, and had big ditches between these gardens, everybody was farmers then. And they had a big drain where the water would go run off the crop. She got her briar and come home that evening and wrapped the end of it.	8:30
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	And it was one girl used to ride the bus, her name was Virginia Mills. And she always picked at Martha, she'd always get there and straighten her legs if we rolled too far she'd stick her foot so we could fall, trip. And so Martha, she stood long, she got mad one evening. She come home got that briar and got on the trolley that morning, and we had our little homemade book bag on our shoulder. And so when Virginia stuck her foot out for Martha to fall, Martha took that briar and wrapped it around her head like she had a halo around her head. And then Martha started pulling.	9:16
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	And the conductor, Mr. Swan. His name was Mr. Swan. Before he could go and get that briar that Martha had, he stood, he laugh, he laugh, he laugh, he laugh. And everybody in the front of the cart was turning around. And Virginia was just a-hollering and screaming. And Martha was pulling the briar. And Mr. Swan got the briar out that child's hair. Somebody, some of the other White ladies come to the back help get that briar out her hair. They got hopped in front. From then on, when we got on that trolley, we had a seat. Martha broke that up. (laughs)	9:54
Mary Hebert	So they were just taking up all the seats in the back part of the trolley?	10:29
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	All the back part of the trolley.	10:32
Mary Hebert	And y'all wouldn't have any place to sit?	10:34
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	We'd have nowhere to sit. They wouldn't move. They would get one or two in a seat. See they had an aisle with seats on each side of aisle. And at the front, it could be vacant seats at the front. But we couldn't go to the front.	10:35
Mary Hebert	Right.	10:48
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	We had to stay in the back. And they take all the back seats and vacant in the front. And the conductors wouldn't make them go to the front, we had to stand up and just go from one side of the aisle. So we rode back and forth, until Martha broke that up.	10:49
Mary Hebert	And then y'all had seats after that?	11:04
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Then after then we had then—wasn't but three or four of us, but we had seats to sit. We used to had to walk from—	11:06
Mary Hebert	You had to walk to school?	11:13
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, when I first started, we used to have to walk from Lynnhaven to Oceana, be up early mornings and walk to school.	11:15
Mary Hebert	What school did you go to?	11:24
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	The elementary school was Oceana.	11:26
Mary Hebert	Oceana Elementary?	11:27
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, Oceana.	11:27
Mary Hebert	What were conditions like there? Were the books used, the desks used? And had they been handed down from the White schools?	11:33
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	We didn't know at that time, but principal of our school, Mrs. Harrison, when she came on as principal, we went to—It was two little rooms. Two little small rooms up there. And the one side from the first grade, I reckon it was from beginners up until the fifth grade. Then they had another little room outside that the fifth and some of the sixth and seventh was in. And seventh grade was high as you could go at that little school down there.	11:42
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	And she went to courthouse, to sue—Mrs. Harrison. And she got so tired of re-learning things that had passed in some of the books was referenced was from, it was in the books we got, the old hand me down. And she was a smart little something. And she fought for good new books for us, up to date books. And she's the first one got a bus. When she got the bus through, I had graduated from Oceana. I was going to Norfolks.	12:21
Mary Hebert	So she got a bus for the school?	12:54
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	She got a bus. Emma Harrison. Everybody around here knew Emma Harrison, because she was a very small little woman, but she was full of fire. She wasn't afraid on how big a White man was, she wasn't afraid of him. Mrs. Harrison.	12:56
Mary Hebert	I got her name. Emma Harrison. And she's the one who bought the good books.	12:57
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	She got the good new books for us, and the bus for us to ride in. Emma Harrison was the one to do.	13:13
Mary Hebert	But how were the classrooms handled? You said there were two rooms.	13:22
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Two rooms.	13:24
Mary Hebert	How did they teach the grades?	13:26
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Well, it was clusters in there. But one teacher to each room. I don't know how she done it, but I knew the rooms in—I was in, I reckon, the third grade or the fourth grade we would come up to the front. Then the other class sit back. Well, she managed to take care up until the second and up to the fifth I think. Then the sixth and the seventh would go to—Because I think we had more heavier lessons. We had more of a subject.	13:29
Mary Hebert	So whatever grade she was teaching would sit at the front of the room.	14:01
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, we just—she would have the children sit—Because we didn't have no heat in there, nothing but an old potbelly stove. And the boys would get the wood up nice and try to keep, so the room would be warm. She had them sitting all—the classes sitting together. And then she would call them up on the floor, when she wanted to get to—	14:05
Mary Hebert	Was there a playground you could play with? Was there recess and things like that?	14:29
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yeah, we had morning recess and 12 o'clock recess, lunch. We had a Mrs—I think, seemed like to me, one of the teachers there said Mrs. Alonso, she had an old stove. I don't know why that just came in so long back. And she used to cook some vegetables and things, beans and things, to give children hot soups and things, because arriving children would walk in with so cold mornings. And I think she was, seemed like to me, I'm not sure now, it's been so many years ago. But I think she used to boil hot beans, and peas in there.	14:33
Mary Hebert	So y'all had some food.	15:06
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Some of the children. We brought lunch and stuff.	15:09
Mary Hebert	Y'all brought your own lunches.	15:10
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yeah, because along ways then, the mothers would always have canned pears, and all like that to make sandwiches. We didn't have a loaf of bread, we had nice biscuits and things.	15:12
Mary Hebert	So your grandmother would pack a lunch for you every day?	15:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, with the lunch buckets.	15:26
Mary Hebert	Would your aunt Martha go to school with you?	15:27
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Martha and Mary and I, we went to school the same time. They were a little bit older than I was, but it wasn't too much. I grew up with them. We grew up together.	15:30
Mary Hebert	So those were your aunts? Martha and Mary were your aunts?	15:38
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Uh-huh.	15:40
Mary Hebert	Okay. And where'd you go to high school?	15:44
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I went to St. Joseph.	15:47
Mary Hebert	St. Joseph?	15:47
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Norfolk, Queen Street.	15:49
Mary Hebert	And was that a private high school?	15:53
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Well, yes, we had paid tuition. The country children did.	15:56
Mary Hebert	You had to pay tuition to go to St. Joseph?	16:01
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah.	16:03
Mary Hebert	That was a Catholic school.	16:03
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Catholic school, yeah.	16:05
Mary Hebert	Did they teach religion to you at all?	16:10
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	We wasn't forced to.	16:13
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay.	16:14
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Now, of course, I didn't ever go to mass. I tell you, I got punched up in there one day because I was a bad girl playing in the holy water, playing in the water. But no, I didn't ever go to mass. But we did have our morning devotion. I call it the catechisms. Morning devotion.	16:17
Mary Hebert	How many other kids went to that high school? Was it a large high school?	16:39
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	St. Josephs was a Catholic school. Yeah, it was large. But there was—most of the children around here went to—After they graduated from, they went to Booker T.	16:46
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm. Why did you go to St. Joseph?	16:58
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	My money was late. My daddy was late sending my mother my tuition, and the school was crowded. They couldn't take but so many in from the the beach, the school was overly crowded. And some minister was at Oceana preacher there, so he knew about this Catholic school, so he helped momma to get me into the Catholic school.	17:02
Mary Hebert	So you got into the Catholic high school. What were some of the things that y'all did for fun at school? Were there school dances or football games?	17:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	There were football games. But I didn't never go no dances, didn't have no recollection, or no football games and something like that.	17:32
Mary Hebert	Did you go to the games?	17:41
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No. I didn't go to no games, because it was so far for me to come, and my mother didn't have no car, transportation. And then I didn't have no friends mostly stay in Norfolk with, no relation. So I traveled back and forth still on the trolley.	17:43
Mary Hebert	So you went to school on the trolley? Was it close for you to go to St. Josephs to Booker T. Washington?	17:59
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	It was not no difference, because Booker T. Washington was down there on Merr—Where's Booker T at now?	18:08
Mary Hebert	It's in Berkley.	18:17
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, Booker T is at—	18:18
Mary Hebert	It's not in Berkley?	18:19
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	On the road.	18:19
Mary Hebert	Okay.	18:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Merrimac Avenue. I think it's Merrimac Avenue. That's [indistinct 00:18:28]. But I been cross town [indistinct 00:18:31] to Queen Street, St. Joseph on Queen Street. [indistinct 00:18:35] avenue now I think they call [indistinct 00:18:37].	18:24
Mary Hebert	But it was Queen Street.	18:36
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	[indistinct 00:18:39] and Queen I think it was, [indistinct 00:18:40] and Queen.	18:39
Mary Hebert	Was there no high school in this area, the Princess Anne area?	18:45
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No. There was no high school down here, because the high school wasn't built until I was married. And my daughter went to the first high school in Princess Anne that was called [indistinct 00:19:04]. I was married then and I had a daughter.	18:51
Mary Hebert	So when did she go to that high school, was it in the '40s and '50s?	19:10
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I imagine so. It must have been around '40s. I got married in '27 though. I got married in '27.	19:16
Mary Hebert	So it could have been [indistinct 00:19:23].	19:22
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	It had to be [indistinct 00:19:23] around the '40s. Because I know she went [indistinct 00:19:31]. We called it [indistinct 00:19:33] now [indistinct 00:19:35] it was called then, but not using that at all now.	19:22
Mary Hebert	But it was called UK?	19:38
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yes, [indistinct 00:19:40] high school. That's the first.	19:39
Mary Hebert	And did your mother want you—She wanted you to go to high school. She wanted you to get your high school education [indistinct 00:19:52].	19:47
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yes, because she was didn't have no chance to go to school, and so she work with all of us to try [indistinct 00:20:03]. [indistinct 00:20:04] old people down, but [indistinct 00:20:06] didn't have too much book learning, but they had good [indistinct 00:20:09] do almost anything she wanted to do. Except she was not a good writer, she couldn't read and write too good, but she could figure pretty good in her head, she could count pretty good.	19:58
Mary Hebert	Did she help y'all with that kind of stuff? [indistinct 00:20:24].	20:22
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, my daddy helped us with school. My daddy was a brilliant. He helped us through our lessons.	20:24
Mary Hebert	Did you go on to college?	20:32
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No.	20:33
Mary Hebert	What year did you graduate form high school?	20:36
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	[indistinct 00:20:38] from seventh grade year, I went up through the eighth grade, we used to call it eighth grade then, and the first year high school.	20:39
Mary Hebert	So you went through the ninth grade?	20:50
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Uh-huh, up to 10th grade.	20:55
Mary Hebert	You went to 10th?	20:55
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	[indistinct 00:20:56] but I didn't finish.	20:56
Mary Hebert	Why did you have to quit? Did you have to go to work?	20:59
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, I got taken sick. And the next semester, the class that I was with was moving on. And I didn't want to stay back.	21:03
Mary Hebert	Right.	21:15
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I didn't [indistinct 00:21:18] and I got married. I wish I had kept on.	21:16
Mary Hebert	So you got married in 1927 you said?	21:20
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, I got married in '27.	21:23
Mary Hebert	Was your mother and father happy that you were getting married at such a young age?	21:26
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Well [indistinct 00:21:31], yeah, they didn't stop me.	21:31
Mary Hebert	They didn't stop you.	21:33
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I was 18.	21:35
Mary Hebert	You were 18? Oh, okay.	21:36
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I was 18.	21:36
Mary Hebert	Did you have a church wedding, or did you go to court?	21:42
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yes, I had a church wedding. I got married at [indistinct 00:21:49] church.	21:45
Mary Hebert	New Haven church?	21:48
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	And the reception was at my home, which we come back to the home, had a reception.	21:51
Mary Hebert	What kind of dress did you wear?	21:58
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	White.	21:59
Mary Hebert	A white dress?	22:00
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Mm-hmm. [indistinct 00:22:03] my bridesmaids wore white too, all of them.	22:01
Mary Hebert	You all wore white?	22:04
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I had two bridesmaids [indistinct 00:22:08] white.	22:06
Mary Hebert	I just heard that some people used to wear all kinds of colors for their weddings, and white wasn't the tradition until later on.	22:10
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah. I wore white.	22:16
Mary Hebert	And the reception was at your parents home?	22:20
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Mm-hmm.	22:21
Mary Hebert	And how did the depression in the '30s, in the late '20s, '30s affect you and your husband?	22:24
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	After I married?	22:32
Mary Hebert	Yeah.	22:35
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Well, my husband got a job working [indistinct 00:22:40] for a man by the name of [indistinct 00:22:42]. And he raised hogs. And Oscar, we [indistinct 00:22:53] one child, that was Francis. We had one baby. And we had a three room house on the farm. On the hog farm. The hog pen was in the [indistinct 00:23:07] and we had a little small house [indistinct 00:23:10] on the road in front of the [indistinct 00:23:14]. And he [indistinct 00:23:16] back and forth to the base, pick up garbage for the hogs, he drove the—	22:35
Mary Hebert	So he'd go to the base and get food for the hogs?	23:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Uh-huh.	23:25
Mary Hebert	Just garbage from the base.	23:26
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	On the base.	23:28
Mary Hebert	Feed the hogs.	23:28
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, from the base. And after he had been going there so long with the truck, and it's so many people [indistinct 00:23:38] I think it was around in '31, '32 like that when the depression was on, then lots of men didn't work, they had no jobs, and the children [indistinct 00:23:49] had family. So Arthur would come home evenings and [indistinct 00:23:54] because [indistinct 00:23:56] food that the governor didn't use. He would wash out the barrels and clean [indistinct 00:24:01] when the hot water [indistinct 00:24:04] take the old big mop and sterilize them, and pour hot water, and clean them. And the people in the kitchen would be nice enough to save all those baked beans and things for Oscar. And he put them in the barrel [indistinct 00:24:21] give them to the hog anyway, they couldn't keep them.	23:28
Mary Hebert	Right.	24:24
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	And he'd put them in the barrel and [indistinct 00:24:26] sometimes because soup [indistinct 00:24:29] and he would suffer through, Arthur would, people he knew all through Lake Smith, and [indistinct 00:24:37] see Arthur coming, lots of the mothers would be standing at the road with they pans waiting for the truck to come through. And Arthur had to [indistinct 00:24:44] knew Arthur was getting the food for people and giving it to them. And they'd be [indistinct 00:24:51] put his [indistinct 00:24:53] all up. He had to cover it over, because the police [indistinct 00:24:58]. He had to [indistinct 00:25:01] trash that blow on the road.	24:25
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	And he had a clean counter he would [indistinct 00:25:06] the barrels [indistinct 00:25:06] had the food in. He [indistinct 00:25:09] it round to the people that he knew was hungry. And he fed a many person with the things from the kitchen, like the bags of cabbage that had [indistinct 00:25:22] green bags.	25:03
Mary Hebert	This was all food that was still good [indistinct 00:25:25].	25:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	It was good food. But the cabbage and things like that, the people that knew Oscar [indistinct 00:25:31] had been going there so long, the people that [indistinct 00:25:36] and he'd put [indistinct 00:25:38] trucks and bring it back, and give it to the people that didn't have jobs. Lots of men didn't have no job, because [indistinct 00:25:46] then I think the governor was giving people rations. There was rations, eight stamps. And then I think at the school [indistinct 00:25:56] there was certain days that they were doing the food, canned food, and beans, and stuff like that to the people. [indistinct 00:26:09].	25:25
Mary Hebert	Right. Did y'all ever lack for food though?	26:11
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, I didn't. Shoot, knock on wood.	26:14
Mary Hebert	I was asking at that time, you didn't [indistinct 00:26:20].	26:18
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, because we had plenty food. I did, because I was going to go to the base, and [indistinct 00:26:27] come home with nice beefs, and [indistinct 00:26:30] and [indistinct 00:26:31] throw it in the trash, they would save it for Oscar.	26:21
Mary Hebert	Because they knew him so well.	26:31
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	He had been going there for years and they would save fresh food for him [indistinct 00:26:39] bring it in. And sometimes he would bring some of the good old brown big beans, and a lot of people were glad to get those. No, I got plenty food, because by him being a garbage man. And so [indistinct 00:26:54] what the hogs ate.	26:36
Mary Hebert	He did keep some for the hogs though, I mean [indistinct 00:26:59].	26:56
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yes. See, he just sterilized the food that he knew he was going to give to the people to eat. But the hogs barrels, he didn't care what [indistinct 00:27:10] to them. Because he would take the food up close to the front, up there next to the [indistinct 00:27:16]. He put the cooked food up there. And in the back there [indistinct 00:27:22] stuff for the truck for the hog. That be easy for him to get it to the hogs and put it at the back of the truck. So that what he used to do. He [indistinct 00:27:33] fed them many presents from that garbage truck.	26:58
Mary Hebert	And a lot of people made it through the depression, I guess, because he was feeding them.	27:37
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yeah, lots of families. He'd come all the way through here with all the food [indistinct 00:27:46] Lake Smith. And he said lots of [indistinct 00:27:49] every day. And they would come to the road with the pans, and the buckets and things, and [indistinct 00:27:56] big dipper.	27:40
Mary Hebert	And he would just dip it out. Was there any kind of government relief other than the one at the school, the rations at Oceana?	27:57
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	That's the only thing I remember. They didn't have no—It was just at the school where they had rationed food.	28:04
Mary Hebert	Did you have a garden during that time?	28:11
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, I didn't have no garden. [indistinct 00:28:17] was working with the hog farm, he didn't have time for no garden.	28:13
Mary Hebert	Did you work during that time?	28:22
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Me? Yes, I worked in summertime. I worked at the place called—I had worked at a laundry. I used to do [indistinct 00:28:33] Snow White Laundry. [indistinct 00:28:37] got large enough to go back to mommas, because momma would keep her in the summertime. And I had worked on the hotel at the beach [indistinct 00:28:46] working during the summer season. I was married then.	28:23
Mary Hebert	So would you clean rooms at the hotel?	28:50
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, I never cleaned. Yes, I did, I worked at Snow White [indistinct 00:28:56] we'd [indistinct 00:28:59] the cabins [indistinct 00:29:02] clean those little cabins. There was [indistinct 00:29:07] Whitehead.	28:53
Mary Hebert	Whitehead?	29:04
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Whitehead.	29:04
Mary Hebert	So you mostly did laundry, you would take out laundry.	29:11
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	[indistinct 00:29:15].	29:12
Mary Hebert	At the Snow White Laundry you did laundry?	29:15
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	At the Snow White Laundry, I worked on the shirt unit.	29:17
Mary Hebert	Okay.	29:18
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	They had five girls working [indistinct 00:29:23]. One was [indistinct 00:29:25] one was sleeve of them, one was back of them. That was when I was at the laundry. I worked one or two summers there. And then I got a job working for Whitehead [indistinct 00:29:37] cabins. The summertime. [indistinct 00:29:40] all we were getting, a dollar a day.	29:19
Mary Hebert	That's amazing. And you didn't work while your daughter was going to school during the year?	29:41
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yeah, she started school, that when I started working.	29:48
Mary Hebert	But did you work year round or just in the summer?	29:52
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, just summertime.	29:53
Mary Hebert	That's when all the tourists were [indistinct 00:29:57].	29:55
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	[indistinct 00:29:58] summer season, I worked summer season. And in the winter time was the last of my years. I was getting long in age [indistinct 00:30:06] 25, 30. We used to go down to the beach [indistinct 00:30:10] domestic work. I had a car then. And we would drive [indistinct 00:30:14] all the way down to [indistinct 00:30:14] with people down there. Clean up the house. I used to [indistinct 00:30:23] work for Miss Johnson.	29:58
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:30:27] Miss Johnson.	30:27
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, I worked with, yeah, Q Johnson [indistinct 00:30:30] two or three days a week.	30:28
Mary Hebert	How was she to work? Or did the people you work for treat you well?	30:34
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, I have always been—I've been lucky [indistinct 00:30:41] I knew that I was a [indistinct 00:30:46]. But they respect me being there, they didn't force nothing on me. And I worked for another lady, she was real nice. What was her name? Agnes Maybe. I always [indistinct 00:31:01] shirts. [indistinct 00:31:03] I called her shirt lady. [indistinct 00:31:04] call them blouses. And when she go shopping, she'd always bring something back to me.	30:40
Mary Hebert	She would bring you a shirt?	31:08
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	She would bring me something back. Yeah, Agnes Maybe. And she [indistinct 00:31:16].	31:10
Mary Hebert	Did they require you to go in through the back door of the house or could you walk into the front door when you were [indistinct 00:31:23].	31:15
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	When I was working? I would always travel in the back door. I parked my car in the back. But we couldn't go [indistinct 00:31:30] on Virginia Beach when I was working on the beach. When I was working at the pantry, we couldn't go on the ocean front. [indistinct 00:31:42] go to the ocean front was the nurses had babies. And the only time the help go to the ocean front after dark or late in the evening [indistinct 00:31:54] help would go down there then. But I never went to the beach, I always used to come home, because I was married.	31:22
Mary Hebert	So the only ones who could go to the ocean front during the day were the nurses who were taking care of the children?	31:59
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Taking care of the children. They could go to the front, ocean front [indistinct 00:32:08].	32:03
Mary Hebert	Would y'all go to the beach? I mean, wasn't there a Black beach?	32:08
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah [indistinct 00:32:14] third street. But then [indistinct 00:32:18] got so many townhouses you wouldn't believe it. Third street.	32:12
Mary Hebert	Would you, and your husband, and your daughter go out there?	32:22
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	[indistinct 00:32:25] name was Parker's Beach then.	32:25
Mary Hebert	Parker's Beach?	32:26
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Parker's Beach.	32:27
Mary Hebert	Did someone own that beach?	32:30
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Miss Parker. But after her death, I don't know what happened, but the White just taken over [indistinct 00:32:40]. We could go down there [indistinct 00:32:43] give it another name now [indistinct 00:32:45] change it all around. [indistinct 00:32:48].	32:32
Mary Hebert	Did y'all enjoy doing that, going to the beach?	32:49
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, in the evenings? Yeah, because things then it wasn't nothing like [indistinct 00:32:57] we used to work all evening and the laundry, come home take [indistinct 00:33:02] bathroom, get a tub and take a bath in our big tub [indistinct 00:33:07] hot water, and go pack our beer and tin tubs, and put ice all on it. We stayed there until 12:00 or 1:00 at night and come back home. See, things wasn't [indistinct 00:33:19] then as now.	32:52
Mary Hebert	So it was safe to go the beach at that time of night.	33:18
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	You could go there [indistinct 00:33:25] anytime we [indistinct 00:33:26] cleaned up after we come home. And sometimes we'd go there and fry fish, and cook [indistinct 00:33:31] on the beach, and [indistinct 00:33:32] like that. We could enjoy it then after we did a days work.	33:18
Mary Hebert	Would y'all meet other people there? Some of your friends there.	33:37
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, it'd be [indistinct 00:33:42] different people you knew from different places. We'd meet together on the beach. We'd [indistinct 00:33:47] blanket and make a [indistinct 00:33:51] there and [indistinct 00:33:52] and stay there until late in the night.	33:39
Mary Hebert	Would you ever go to Sea View Beach?	33:55
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yes, I have gone [indistinct 00:33:58]. That was for Blacks too. [indistinct 00:33:59] a Black beach.	33:57
Mary Hebert	But you went to Parker Beach more. It was just right there.	34:01
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	That's close [indistinct 00:34:06]. And we couldn't even go into the [indistinct 00:34:11] drug store [indistinct 00:34:12]. If you wanted a prescription, you had to go to the back door to get a prescription.	34:05
Mary Hebert	You never went to some of the Black owned pharmacies?	34:19
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Wasn't Black pharmacists around here.	34:22
Mary Hebert	Not around here? They were out on Church Street [indistinct 00:34:26].	34:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Maybe [indistinct 00:34:28] no Black pharmacists around here.	34:26
Mary Hebert	So you had to go the back entrance of—	34:34
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	[indistinct 00:34:35] drug store. It was [indistinct 00:34:35] drug store. It was two drug stores at the beach. Mary's Drug Store, and what other drug store [indistinct 00:34:38]. [indistinct 00:34:41]. It was another [indistinct 00:34:42] if we want anything we had to go to the back to get it.	34:34
Mary Hebert	Was it a Black doctor [indistinct 00:34:47].	34:45
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Not a Black doctor. There were Black doctors in Berkeley. But we had no Black doctors on Virginia Beach.	34:48
Mary Hebert	So what did you have to do when you needed to go to the doctor?	34:59
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	We [indistinct 00:34:59] there was doctors here, but there was White that we went to.	34:59
Mary Hebert	Were there waiting rooms divided into a Black side and a White side?	35:03
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, it was a little small room. People didn't get sick like they do now. I don't know why. But I can remember [indistinct 00:35:20] there used to be one old doctor [indistinct 00:35:22] we used to call him country doctor. I don't remember what his name was. He had a horse and buggy. He used to come [indistinct 00:35:28] in the country. I was real small. I can't hardly remember him. But most of the people then [indistinct 00:35:34] feeding their children off herb medicine. Had a [indistinct 00:35:38] give you some of [indistinct 00:35:38] some kind of herb, weed or something give you for a whooping cough. And but we didn't go to doctors like we do now.	35:08
Mary Hebert	Did you learn about what herbs to use?	35:48
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, that's just which we had. We didn't pay attention.	35:50
Mary Hebert	Did your grandmother teach you how to make medicines or you never [indistinct 00:35:58].	35:53
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, my momma, she—I stayed with grandmamma and momma worked. And momma didn't ever know. But I know [indistinct 00:36:05] we had [indistinct 00:36:09] the craziest thing, so we had chicken pox. What's craziest [indistinct 00:36:12] the chicken over your head. [indistinct 00:36:19] I remember that [indistinct 00:36:20] I probably remember that because I was scared of the old roosters [indistinct 00:36:23]. [indistinct 00:36:27] left all that mess [indistinct 00:36:28].	36:00
Mary Hebert	So they passed the chicken over your head?	36:31
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	If you could [indistinct 00:36:34] they had a little hole for the chicken [indistinct 00:36:38]. And they opened the door, had a door for the chicken go in. And [indistinct 00:36:42] put you there [indistinct 00:36:44] chicken flew over your head [indistinct 00:36:45].	36:32
Mary Hebert	Let it fly over your head, okay.	36:44
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Fly over your head. And I was scared. I was scared the old rooster. That's why I remember that. That was for chicken pox. But folks didn't—	36:45
Mary Hebert	They didn't get sick like they do now.	36:57
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Uh-uh. I don't know why. Because [indistinct 00:37:03]. We eating lots of things we shouldn't eat, because [indistinct 00:37:06] killed they own meat, they had they own smoke house. And [indistinct 00:37:14] grandpapa used to dig a hole in the ground and make a fire one end of it, and hang this great big hams up. And he would take molasses and some kind of pepper, and [indistinct 00:37:27] hams [indistinct 00:37:29] the meat. And that smoke would cure it. [indistinct 00:37:34] we had kept meat hanging up in the smoke house all year round.	37:00
Mary Hebert	He had his own smoke house?	37:34
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah. He was a farmer. He had his own smoke house.	37:34
Mary Hebert	So what's Virginia Beach now [indistinct 00:37:46] at that time it was country.	37:35
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Country. [indistinct 00:37:49] down the swamp where all those [indistinct 00:37:52] down the swamp [indistinct 00:37:54] going to—That was fields, corn fields [indistinct 00:38:00] had two crops a year. Had a summer crop and the fall crop. And the summertime they started digging white potatoes. And you see [indistinct 00:38:11] tied up [indistinct 00:38:14] digging white potatoes. Then they picked the peas, and picked [indistinct 00:38:20] and all that [indistinct 00:38:21]. Oh, God, I really think I would die if I had to go there and do it now.	37:47
Mary Hebert	Did you do it when you [indistinct 00:38:27].	38:25
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No.	38:27
Mary Hebert	No?	38:27
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I was lucky that I was a generation past that. Momma said that's [indistinct 00:38:34] while grandma was there in the field with grandpa [indistinct 00:38:36].	38:32
Mary Hebert	Did your family attend church when you were growing up?	38:39
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Mm-hmm.	38:41
Mary Hebert	Which church?	38:42
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Same one I go to now, Methodist church.	38:42
Mary Hebert	Is it an AME church?	38:48
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	AME, mm-hmm.	38:49
Mary Hebert	And who from the community belonged—It was just people who lived near you or did they come from [indistinct 00:39:01].	38:54
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I know they used to come [indistinct 00:39:04] then they used to drive horses and wagons. Nobody had too many automobiles. They would drive their families to church with their [indistinct 00:39:14] I don't think some [indistinct 00:39:16]. But they would drive they family [indistinct 00:39:19] horse and carts, and tie they horse under the [indistinct 00:39:23] tree. And they [indistinct 00:39:25] go in church. And then revival Sunday [indistinct 00:39:31] we used to have second Sunday in August, third Sunday in August, they cooked all this food, and we had a whole week of service. And they would serve food on the campus [indistinct 00:39:44]. And [indistinct 00:39:46] almost smell the food before you get to the church.	39:01
Mary Hebert	Did everybody bring their own food, or would they share?	39:49
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	They'd bring their [indistinct 00:39:56] my grandmother and my momma would bring their food. And [indistinct 00:40:00] had a nice tablecloths on the tables out in the yard. They have a long row of tables, and some of them get on that end of the table, certain space [indistinct 00:40:11] take a certain part of the table. Then another [indistinct 00:40:14] take it all the way down. Sometimes maybe the length of this room before—	39:55
Mary Hebert	So 20 feet long.	40:19
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Something like that. It was one table but [indistinct 00:40:22] everybody had they tablecloths on them. And they put their baskets on the table. Then they put the plates, had to fix them plates on top of the table, they were placed on top of the table. And folks were on the other side, you walk by and get you a plate, and keep on going. And everybody [indistinct 00:40:41] eating the baked tomatoes. They cooked all that food they self, they would get help in the morning, early morning cooking [indistinct 00:40:51].	40:20
Mary Hebert	Was that a big event, church event of the year?	40:53
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, one church would start. Now we all had our meeting on the third Sunday. [indistinct 00:41:03] first Sunday. They had their big spread the first Sunday. They St. Martha started [indistinct 00:41:10]. And then Union Baptist [indistinct 00:41:14] they had the fourth week, and the month of August, that's what time they had [indistinct 00:41:23].	40:57
Mary Hebert	So each church had a week in August.	41:22
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	[indistinct 00:41:24] the revival.	41:22
Mary Hebert	The revival. That's nice. Would people go to different revivals [indistinct 00:41:29].	41:26
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yeah, we traveled round. But we looked forward to [indistinct 00:41:32] oh, we would get up [indistinct 00:41:36] others come in. We would start [indistinct 00:41:39] our little Sunday dresses up and get them all clean because [indistinct 00:41:43] boys. The boys from [indistinct 00:41:48] socialize with them boys. We had our little [indistinct 00:41:52] dresses all starched and [indistinct 00:41:56] too much [indistinct 00:41:58] everybody used to [indistinct 00:42:01] little dresses and all ironed up and fixed up. And we was [indistinct 00:42:06] for that week. And we [indistinct 00:42:09] and walk. Girls and boys [indistinct 00:42:12] in the middle of the day, and then go into church and then they had night service.	41:28
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm. And so that was a big event for everyone in the community.	42:20
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	[indistinct 00:42:24]. All round from just a lot of people come from [indistinct 00:42:26] down. A lot of folks.	42:24
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:42:29].	42:25
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, lots of them come down. Because of that good old country food, they would come in here and eat that [indistinct 00:42:36] large attendance [indistinct 00:42:37].	42:30
Mary Hebert	Did you meet your husband at one of these or did you know him when you were growing up?	42:40
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I knew Arthur [indistinct 00:42:48] he [indistinct 00:42:51]. This where he was [indistinct 00:42:52]. This time he was living on his daddy's place down he built on his daddy's place. They had the old farm house [indistinct 00:43:00].	42:46
Mary Hebert	So in this very spot was where he lived?	42:59
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, where he lived. And I was raised on Lynnhaven side. And I used to go on the car, on the trolley to Oceana, to school. And he used to have to come by to pick up the teacher to bring the teacher [indistinct 00:43:22]. And I met him through by going to revival, through—I knew him a long time before we married. I used to see him, he was waiting for the teacher come in [indistinct 00:43:36]. I went to Oceana, but I didn't come this way.	43:05
Mary Hebert	Right. But you had known him since you had gone to school up there?	43:42
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Uh-huh. Yeah.	43:44
Mary Hebert	Where did you do your shopping when you were, say, in the '30s and '40s when you [indistinct 00:43:57].	43:50
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	We had to go to Norfolk.	43:57
Mary Hebert	How'd you get out to Norfolk?	43:58
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Trolley. Until when I got married, Arthur owned a car, he bought a car. But when I was young, home with momma and them, they'd catch the trolley car to go to Norfolk. Folks didn't go to Norfolk like they do now.	44:00
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm.	44:13
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	They would go once or twice a year.	44:14
Mary Hebert	They'd just go there once or twice a year.	44:15
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, folks didn't go shopping because a lot of people used to sew, make their children clothes.	44:19
Mary Hebert	Would your mother and grandmother sew for you or would you would you go in and buy your clothes?	44:26
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I think our coats, and clothes, and shoes and things, they had to go to Norfolk to buy it then. And we didn't care, children didn't have clothes like they have now. They would have the Sunday clothes and work clothes. Now with Sunday clothes, I think grandma used to make a lot of our little dresses, because she made a lot of our bloomers, because along back then we had elastic in our bloomer legs. People used to sew a lot.	44:31
Mary Hebert	So the bloomers came down to your knees?	45:00
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Above our [indistinct 00:45:03] yeah.	45:02
Mary Hebert	Just above your knees.	45:03
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah.	45:05
Mary Hebert	And she would make those herself? What about after you married, your husband take you out to Norfolk in the car when you needed something?	45:06
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	As I married, we would go to Norfolk more often then.	45:13
Mary Hebert	I need to turn this tape—	45:14

Mary Hebert	You all go to the north more often?	0:02
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, [indistinct 00:00:06]. Things was getting to get a little more wise around here, wasn't quite so—[indistinct 00:00:12]	0:05
Mary Hebert	Were the roads getting better?	0:14
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, the road was not like it is now. But we still had the concrete road but it was smaller. It wasn't as wide as it is now.	0:17
Mary Hebert	Would you do a lot of your shopping on Church Street in Norfolk? Would you go up to Church Street or downtown more?	0:29
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Church and Granby were the main street because we used to go—There used to be a old store called Altschuls at Steiners was the main stores on Church Street where you'd do a lot of buying from.	0:36
Mary Hebert	Could you try on clothes in those stores?	0:55
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh yeah, you could try on.	0:57
Mary Hebert	Hats, shoes?	0:57
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Try on anything there. But if you had to try on a hat, you had to put a [indistinct 00:01:04] on top of your head, on account of [indistinct 00:01:05] your hair. But you could try on shoes. And Miller Rose used to be on Granby Street. There was good stores on Granby. Same thing we had—	1:00
Mary Hebert	Do you remember the lunch counters being segregated or restaurants, having to go to the back window to order food and things like that?	1:25
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	It wasn't too many restaurant you could go to [indistinct 00:01:36] buy hotdog. I think at the Wood [indistinct 00:01:43] dime store, they had a counter there and that, you could set on the stool and eat there.	1:33
Mary Hebert	So you could sit in those stools?	1:51
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	In the stool.	1:53
Mary Hebert	Did y'all ever go to the movies?	1:55
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh yeah, we had movies. But there was different movies. We didn't go to the one—We went to the one on Church Street. But we could go to movies on Church Street.	1:57
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:02:08] the Attucks Theater? Were there other theaters on Church—	2:08
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I never—I went to [indistinct 00:02:13] on Church Street, that's the one I used to go to. But maybe there were some more on Granby Street, but I never went to one on Granby Street. I don't know.	2:12
Mary Hebert	Was that a Black theater?	2:21
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah.	2:23
Mary Hebert	So you could sit wherever you wanted to in the movie theater?	2:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	That's a Black theater.	2:24
Mary Hebert	Do you remember some of the signs of segregation that used to be, like White Only, Black Only, restrooms and things like that?	2:28
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, I didn't pay attention. No, because I knew that there was—I'm trying to think how was that—At the bus terminal, I think it was, they had this—Where the Whites usually going, White ladies, and a sign for the Black womens.	2:38
Mary Hebert	So there were White ladies and Black women?	3:08
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Mm-hmm.	3:10
Mary Hebert	That's how the—	3:10
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, the bus station.	3:14
Mary Hebert	Did you ever travel very much as an adult?	3:20
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, not until I got married.	3:23
Mary Hebert	After you got married though, would y'all go on trips, long trips?	3:25
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, we did. We went—That was, back then, that was during the time of segregation, we used to go travel. But it was the same way. In the bus terminal, I would say it was White and Black womens and White ladies. But we didn't go—Unless we were going to visit some family or something like that.	3:30
Mary Hebert	Would you pack your lunch in the bus—	3:58
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, we could buy food. But there's different place you had to go in the back way. But most of the times when I was traveling, we always going to visit somebody, in-law, family, somebody [indistinct 00:04:15]	4:00
Mary Hebert	So you had a place to stay when you got there?	4:15
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, we'd go to hotel.	4:17
Mary Hebert	So you'd go to hotels?	4:19
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	We [indistinct 00:04:21] hotel.	4:20
Mary Hebert	What were some of the places you visited?	4:24
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh Lord, it been so many years ago. I know we used to go to—Because we was in Washington—No, we was in New York.	4:28
Mary Hebert	Oh, so you'd go up North?	4:38
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Uh-huh, North.	4:38
Mary Hebert	Did y'all ever travel deeper South than Virginia?	4:38
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, we never—[indistinct 00:04:41] going South [indistinct 00:04:43] We always went North. New York, Baltimore. We never went South. But we had reservation. Even [indistinct 00:04:56] went to Chinatown. I had stayed in New York, Chinatown. But we were scared down there because I was scared to catch a cab because we didn't know type to catch. My brother was there one night and he went in there, he got lost. But just by luck, some Black cab picked him up. He was a cab driver. But we didn't have trouble getting a hotel room.	4:43
Mary Hebert	Were there hotel rooms for Black people in Virginia Beach? Were there hotels for Blacks here?	5:25
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No.	5:30
Mary Hebert	No?	5:31
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Mm-mm. It's been segregated—	5:31
Mary Hebert	So it was a White resort, basically?	5:33
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	White.	5:36
Mary Hebert	What were some of the gathering places in Virginia Beach or in Norfolk where people would just gather around to talk or have a soda or something? Were there any places that stand out in your mind?	5:41
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	At the time, there was three places I'd be—Little Grill, that was run by a Black person. We had a Black [indistinct 00:06:03] eat there fine. And little White [indistinct 00:06:07] went there, it's all Black. And A. Lee, he had a what-do-you-call-it. Black [indistinct 00:06:15] there. Then Miss Harrison, she had a pool parlor on [indistinct 00:06:27] Cypress Avenue was all Black. Everything in there was Black folks run.	5:56
Mary Hebert	So they owned it and they ran it?	6:34
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Mm-hmm.	6:36
Mary Hebert	Were there any grocery stores [indistinct 00:06:39] that were White-owned that were around here?	6:37
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	White owner? No, you could go shopping there.	6:41
Mary Hebert	But they were owned by White people?	6:44
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	White people.	6:44
Mary Hebert	Did they have any stores that were owned by Black people, like grocery stores, markets?	6:46
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Askew. Man by the name of Askew, he had a—	6:51
Mary Hebert	Askew?	6:53
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Askew. On Seatack he had—Askew, he had a store there.	6:53
Mary Hebert	Is Seatack around here? Are we close to Seatack?	7:01
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Seatack had a recreation center at one time. The Black folks bought the land and they had a fire department and they were so weak-minded, let the White people come in and take it away from them. Now where the fire department's at and the little Black community center, they call it, now the White got in there. Now they done built—Take it away from them. Then we got the smallest recreation, of all the Whites got great big recre—in they community. Seatack don't have a basketball.	7:05
Mary Hebert	It doesn't have basketball courts?	7:44
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, no. Seatack—And that belonged to the Blacks. They raised money, bought the land. No, they didn't buy the land because it was donated by someone or other, give the land to them. But the fire department, they let the White folks come in and take all that away from them.	7:44
Mary Hebert	Is this part of Seatack where you live now?	8:00
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No.	8:02
Mary Hebert	It's outside of—	8:02
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	This is, where I live at now—	8:03
Mary Hebert	It's Great Neck.	8:06
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Great Neck. Great Neck.	8:06
Mary Hebert	Would you ever go to Seatack at all?	8:09
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yeah. I goes down there because I have friends down there, I got relation down there. I goes down to the church down there. They call it the Birdneck now.	8:11
Mary Hebert	Birdneck?	8:20
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Birdneck, it's called Birdneck. That was Birdneck that had the fire department owned by the Black folk. We had a little fire department, fire chiefs. And one person sold—Got in with the White folks on Virginia Beach and the poisoned his mind and nobody looked into it until it was too late.	8:21
Mary Hebert	And it was gone?	8:45
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Everything is—Now the White people have taken over everything.	8:47
Mary Hebert	Did you know about that when you were growing up and after you'd married, that Seatack was there?	8:55
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yes. We used to go down there to have a little—We had a little place that we used to call our [indistinct 00:09:07] a little get-together down sometime to it. But now, I think the Whites have taken over just about everything. Somebody's [indistinct 00:09:22] just like this place through here, over here where Silver Hill at.	9:00
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	The old people died and we went to the courthouse about four or five times, try to fight that, keep that place on—One member of the family let one person talk him into selling dirt cheap. He almost give it away, and we went to the courthouse, we was fighting. Keep on building. Then he turned around then—So many people there in the courthouse and [indistinct 00:10:01] got this place where Silver Hill's at now. That belonged to the Haynes family and they let the judge and the lawyers and everybody overpower. We still [indistinct 00:10:17]	9:29
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	They wants to buy this vacant lot, over here at the side of me. This old lady, she was real sick and she was crazy. She couldn't much write and he forced her name on it to buy this place next door to me. We got to go to the courthouse again. He wants to build apartments over there and we don't want it.	10:16
Mary Hebert	You don't want apartments in the neighborhood?	10:40
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Because it brings in too many people and it crowds the road up so much. Since he got the place, he don't want to build single-family homes. He wants to build—	10:43
Mary Hebert	An apartment complex?	10:58
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	The neighborhood is too—But which is not enough people in here to help, because the younger generation, their parents was here, but they're moving out of here. And our little league is too weak to fight—	11:02
Mary Hebert	You have a civic league?	11:19
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	We had one, but all the members—We have so many deaths through here.	11:20
Mary Hebert	So it—	11:27
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	We don't have no voice. We don't have enough to help us fight. But—	11:29
Mary Hebert	Now aren't they trying to take over Seatack and buy people's houses and build complexes there too? I mean—	11:34
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Owls Creek. That was on all Owls Creek. That was Black folks' land. But they had bought them out, because we had such [indistinct 00:11:49] people at the courthouse there. They know how to do it and they gets to the weak-minded people and they buy the land and next thing you know, they built some up there.	11:41
Mary Hebert	Apartment complexes?	12:02
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Great Neck—	12:07
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:12:08]	12:08
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Great Neck will be the same way because we can't fight it.	12:08
Mary Hebert	Speaking of government and the courthouse and stuff, do you remember the first time you voted? Do you remember voting for the first time? Registering to vote?	12:12
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, I've been registered to vote. I register to vote up there. I [indistinct 00:12:28] around 30 years ago. I know it was over 30 years.	12:21
Mary Hebert	So you registered in the '50s?	12:27
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yes, [indistinct 00:12:28]	12:27
Mary Hebert	The '60s?	12:27
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Must have been around the '50s, I think.	12:27
Mary Hebert	'50s?	12:37
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Mm.	12:38
Mary Hebert	Did you have to pay a poll tax or-	12:39
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	You had to pay a poll tax. When I voted, yeah. I think it was a dollar or half or something like that to vote, to buy a poll tax. But now you don't have to pay.	12:45
Mary Hebert	Right. They got rid of the tax.	12:50
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Right.	12:52
Mary Hebert	Did you have to take a test?	12:52
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No.	12:52
Mary Hebert	No?	12:52
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No test.	12:52
Mary Hebert	Just pay your tax?	12:55
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Pay your tax.	12:55
Mary Hebert	When did you pay it? When you registered or did you pay it every time you voted?	12:57
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	When you voted, first it was once you registered, I didn't have to pay it no more.	13:01
Mary Hebert	Oh, so you just paid it once?	13:05
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Mm-hmm.	13:06
Mary Hebert	How did World War Two affect Norfolk and the Virginia Beach area?	13:08
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I don't remember. I had an uncle too, went to World War Two. I can't remember when they went to this last war, because so many boys from Great Neck went. Korean War, I think it was. I think it was the last war.	13:13
Mary Hebert	The Persian Gulf War?	13:25
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, it was the Persian Gulf?	13:27
Mary Hebert	Vietnam?	13:29
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, Vietnam. I remember that one. That didn't [indistinct 00:13:32] taking three or four men from here. I think all of them came back but one. We didn't lose but one.	13:29
Mary Hebert	But you don't remember much about World War Two?	13:41
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No.	13:43
Mary Hebert	You don't remember ration cards and gas rationing and things like that?	13:45
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah, I took an office [indistinct 00:13:52] That was World War—Because everybody the gas, and even whiskey, you'd buy rations for liquor, food stamps. Yeah, I remember that. They give you a book of—	13:49
Mary Hebert	Stamps and you buy so much food—	14:07
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	So much [indistinct 00:14:11] I remember that.	14:10
Mary Hebert	Did you belong to any organizations or clubs as you were—	14:16
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No.	14:18
Mary Hebert	—coming up and since you've become adult?	14:18
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I belonged to lots of church clubs and this, but that didn't have anything to do with the governance system.	14:25
Mary Hebert	I was changing the subject.	14:30
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I know.	14:30
Mary Hebert	I should have warned you a little better. Did y'all belong to the NAACP?	14:35
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Oh, yes. I still pay dues, but I don't attend.	14:37
Mary Hebert	Did you used to attend the meetings at one time?	14:43
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No, I never attended. I, of course, was—She's dead now. She was really NAACP—She would go all through the community and she would travel with them, but I never got into that.	14:47
Mary Hebert	Who was that?	14:59
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	She's dead now. Patient Marber.	15:00
Mary Hebert	Did everybody in your community belong? Would she organize the community and people would—	15:07
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I don't know how she [indistinct 00:15:13] I knew she would come here and get money from me and my husband and I. We would give her a donation.	15:11
Mary Hebert	Do you remember any important Black national figures, like Thurgood Marshall or Martin Luther King and those people? Did y'all talk about what was going on in your house? Like during the civil rights movement?	15:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Well, we could see it. I remember what we saw on the TV, what was going on then. See, we had TV then. Because I never went to none of that.	15:38
Mary Hebert	What was it like here in Norfolk? Did desegregation happen fairly peacefully here?	15:46
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yes, because I don't think—Let me think. I don't think it had no trouble here, no marches or nothing. I don't remember no marches. But I think some of us went to—It seemed like [indistinct 00:16:23] had went to join the march on the White House out there. I don't know. But I didn't ever go.	15:53
Mary Hebert	But some people from here did go to the March on Washington?	16:29
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Some of the people from Norfolk. Not down here in the country.	16:32
Mary Hebert	Oh.	16:35
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Some of the upper class of people. But some people understand a little more about them things, they got involved in it. But I didn't ever get involved.	16:35
Mary Hebert	Did you ever feel like you were a second-class citizen because of segregation? Did it make you feel like you weren't as good as everyone else because these laws made you go to the back door or a restaurant or go to a separate restroom and things like that? Did you ever feel badly about that?	16:48
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Well, I didn't feel too bad about it because I didn't know [indistinct 00:17:17] better. Like my granddaughter said, integration started and she went to—It was three children from here, went to integration school. She said she first went there—[indistinct 00:17:33] But she always had a self-esteem. She was always real proud of herself and she said the first time, the first day she went, said everybody looked at her like she didn't know what [indistinct 00:17:49] around. She met one Black boy there. He was a doctor's son and he and her sat and ate in the yard. She said that, by themselves. He had his back to her back and said—The rest of them was doing some working in the yard, but they had sitting back to back.	17:09
Mary Hebert	So they could watch each side?	18:09
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Yeah. Working on the lesson like that, would have been. And I said, two girls came up to her and asked for her name. So Wanda said she looked down, [indistinct 00:18:24] she said, and she talked to them, told them her name and they told her her name. The next day, I think she said, they come up to her again and started talking. I said, she didn't act like she was scared. I said, "Wanda, I know you were scared." She said, "I made up my mind, I'm going to fight it [indistinct 00:18:48] I'm not going to be [indistinct 00:18:49] I'm not going to let them run me." I said, this boy and her were standing at the corner or something and she said that the same two girls come up to her and started talking and the four of them started talking together. She said from then on, she was invited to a pajama party and they got along good. Said—	18:11
Mary Hebert	So there weren't any problems?	19:11
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No problem. She and one boy broke the barrier then for the integration at school. And she got along good after then.	19:12
Mary Hebert	Did your daughter have any reservations about sending your granddaughter to that school? Did she—	19:23
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Any reservation?	19:29
Mary Hebert	Yeah. Did she think twice about having your granddaughter be one of the first?	19:29
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	Wanda had said that she just—Somebody, she said, has got to go. So she went and her mama didn't—My daughter, she [indistinct 00:19:47] She didn't care if she went. Wanda had said she had that much thought of herself. So she went and my grandson, he stayed with his grandmother and he went to a school over there because Ms. Garrett used to work [indistinct 00:20:03] over there. What's the name of the school she went to? He and her went to a Black school. He also went to a White school. Because she used to work there, there was a family over there. What was the name of the school? Oh, Bayside, I can't think of the name of the school now. But she used to put him with the children that she was working for, and so he [indistinct 00:20:24] along with them children [indistinct 00:20:26] to school.	19:35
Mary Hebert	Do you think that you had self-esteem too and it didn't bother you that the segregation system existed and you passed that onto your children, your daughter, for her to have the strength to be able to send her daughter—	20:27
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I don't know, but I really didn't ever really feel like I was really poor. I knew I didn't have—I never been hungry. I knew I wasn't rich. But I really didn't feel like when all this [indistinct 00:20:59] food that I was really poor. I don't know why I didn't feel like it. I didn't have nothing. But I think because my daddy stayed gone and he used to send us nice things, because I had a gold chain around my neck that he bought us. I had a five-dollar gold piece and had it made in a chain. Mama, she had a 10-dollar gold piece around her neck chain. And mama had nice rings. I just didn't know how poor I was till I got grown and found out. I never been hungry.	20:40
Mary Hebert	But the money didn't matter because you had your family there and you had the food that you needed?	21:34
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I always had clothes and Mama used to sit down and do a lot of hand tacking, all my little underskirt full of lace around the tail. I was so poor I didn't know it. That's a terrible thing to be. And Wanda, she just always had [indistinct 00:21:58] now she just—She's working for Sears Roebuck now, said she got two more years, she can retire.	21:41
Mary Hebert	Well, those are the questions I had for you. Is there anything that I didn't cover with you that you want to talk about? Is there anything else that you want to tell me about that I didn't ask you about?	22:12
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	No.	22:24
Mary Hebert	No?	22:24
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I don't think—	22:24
Mary Hebert	Do you think you covered just about everything?	22:24
Lucille Tucker Grimstead	I don't know. There's nothing I can think of [indistinct 00:22:32] I don't—	22:31
Mary Hebert	That's it.	22:31

Item Info

Title:

Lucille Grimstead interview recording, 1995 July 18

Date:

July 18, 1995

Creator:

Grimstead, Lucille Tucker

Contributor:

Hebert, Mary

Description:

Name: Lucille Tucker Grimstead; Date of birth: 1912-06-19; Place of birth: Princess Ann Co., VA; Occupation(s): domestic; Residence: Virginia Beach, VA
Informant ID: 1004; Interviewed by: Mary Hebert.

Occupation:

Domestic worker

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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RL00170-CS-1309
61f05c66-5ba0-499a-9472-557d80cb9e8c
behindtheveil
70a2bb4c-8717-40b1-97a1-76e9d816d8bc
ark:/87924/r4cz3dd9z
70a2bb4c-8717-40b1-97a1-76e9d816d8bc

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Lucille Grimstead interview recording, 1995 July 18

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1. Lucille Grimstead administrative, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Lucille Grimstead interview recording, 1995 July 18

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