RL00170-CS-0981_02 / Wallace Booker interview recording, 1993 July 27 / Duke Digital Repository

Kara Miles

How about differences between Richmond and Petersburg?

0:01

Wallace M. Booker

Well, Petersburg is just a country town, actually, to tell you the truth, we call Virginia State as being in Petersburg, Virginia State College was actually in Ettrick, Virginia, and that was across the river up on top of the hill. But we went down into Petersburg occasionally maybe to shop or whatnot. I didn't have any money, so I don't recall going to the movies or anything like that down there. But Petersburg is just a small town, of course Ettrick was even smaller.

0:07

Kara Miles

How about differences, were White people nicer, meaner the same? How about contact with White people?

0:54

Wallace M. Booker

They weren't in contact. In fact, we lived on a whole world around. In those days, I don't ever had any White faculty members, but once a year we'd have a governor's day and the governor would come and so forth for us to show off of here. But other than that, you say we had our athletic programs. We wasn't in contact with White. Now VPI was a White counterpart to Virginia State College. So like I say, we're not mixing, this is almost like apartheid in South Africa, I would think.

1:05

Kara Miles

Let me go back a little bit.

2:13

Wallace M. Booker

All right.

2:13

Kara Miles

What did these to do for fun in Richmond as a child?

2:13

Wallace M. Booker

We played ball in the streets and stuff like that.

2:30

Wallace M. Booker

I don't know anything specifically we did. We did play ball, like I said, it was in the street. Now, this brings to mind something. You may be familiar with the early years of Arthur Ashe, how he played tennis and he couldn't play up at Bird Park. He lived up in the Sydney section next to it. And of course he had come down there in Jackson Ward to play. In my neighborhood, there's no such thing as playing tennis. Oh. Nothing formal. I'll put it that way. I don't remember boys going fishing in the river or anything like that. I never caught a fish until I came to Newburg. Nothing organized, just we existed. I'll put it that way.

2:50

Kara Miles

How about as a teenager, can you think of what you did for fun as a teenager?

4:09

Wallace M. Booker

Same thing, I guess. There's bicycle, bicycle around. We roamed around. See, like I said, I was 17 when I left. I just in the middle of teenage. I don't recall anything special with that.

4:30

Kara Miles

How about dating? Were you dating when you left Richmond?

4:43

Wallace M. Booker

No, uh-uh. As I can recall, so far as I know, very little of that went on. Because we like so-and-so like that. But no, uh-uh. I never had any. There were dances. I didn't go to many of them. That is the truth. But there were dances everyone went to. It had a dance hall there on Lee Street, Johnson's Hall, which was over top of a funeral home there. They built a housing project there, Gilpin Corridor, I recall. Of course, I was a long way from that because we didn't come up there. It was part of the elite group of Jackson Floyd.

4:54

Kara Miles

Well did, oh, nevermind you told me where the dances were. Were you in any social clubs in school?

6:34

Wallace M. Booker

No.

6:37

Kara Miles

Athletics or anything?

6:38

Wallace M. Booker

No. Looks like we can never fill the football team constantly. Once or twice, there was a football team at Armstrong. Was music groups there. But beyond that, I don't remember any extracurricular activities that went on. Dramatics, they had dramatics there in high school.

6:40

Kara Miles

There was one high school, so everybody came to that one high school.

7:32

Wallace M. Booker

Right.

7:32

Kara Miles

Were there any tensions between people from Jackson Ward not liking people from Sydney or things like that?

7:32

Wallace M. Booker

Not as a group, no. They might have individuals just like you might have individual disputes.

7:40

Kara Miles

But there weren't any neighborhood—

7:47

Wallace M. Booker

No, no. I can remember the last whipping I got in school was between me and another boy who lived in Fulton. Being in different neighborhoods, didn't have anything to do with, I think, I was just mad or something like that. And we ended up fighting that day after school. And we got a whipping for that. I had my share of whipping, both at home and away.

7:51

Kara Miles

How old were you when you had the last whipping?

8:31

Wallace M. Booker

Oh, I don't know. I was about the seventh grade, I think. I know I was in seventh grade. Sixth—probably about 13, I guess.

8:35

Kara Miles

What did your mother do to punish you after that?

8:55

Wallace M. Booker

Oh, she didn't know anything about that.

8:56

Kara Miles

No, after, I mean—

8:56

Wallace M. Booker

Oh.

8:57

Kara Miles

After she stopped whipping you.

8:57

Wallace M. Booker

Oh, I don't know. Just got mad and fussed me out, I think. That's all I remember. No, I don't have any specific punishment of laying out, because she didn't do that.

9:05

Kara Miles

You were saying she didn't know anything about—

9:30

Wallace M. Booker

Oh, I thought you meant because of the whipping I got at school. No, she ain't know anything about it. I didn't let her know about things like that.

9:32

Kara Miles

Well, the teacher gave you that whipping?

9:40

Wallace M. Booker

Yeah. Assistant principal, I think it was. Yeah. Mr. Fox. I remember. I think about it every time I pass that school building.

9:42

Kara Miles

Did you get a lot of whippings at school too?

9:56

Wallace M. Booker

At one time I did. Oh, when I was in the lower grade, yes I did. I get one probably every day in lower grade. I don't know. I guess I was just playful that's all.

10:03

Kara Miles

Were there any teachers that you had in elementary or high school that really made a big difference in your life that you really admired or thought real special?

10:28

Wallace M. Booker

No, I wouldn't say so. I don't remember a whole lot of them. I think I remember my first and second grade teacher, maybe fifth grade teacher. I remember her because she was close, associated with mother, so I had to be good. In high school, I remember few of them, but not that they made a great impression on me. And the same thing in college. A few people or a number, most of them, I don't remember right now. But no, I can't say they were role models or anything like that. Not taking anything away from them, but I just wasn't impressed that way.

10:51

Kara Miles

Do you feel, or did you feel then, did teachers play favorites? Did they give maybe lighter-skinned children, did they treat them better or maybe more elite kids better than poor kids? Was any favorites played?

12:01

Wallace M. Booker

None of that registers with me right now. Never had any complaints as far as I felt. No.

12:23

Wallace M. Booker

No, I don't know of any incidents I can think of that classify to that respect.

12:32

Kara Miles

Why did you choose to go to Virginia State?

13:05

Wallace M. Booker

Well, as I told, my mother went there for certification purposes, and there were other members of the family who had attended Virginia State. And I just hooked on Virginia State. As my first year in school in college, it looked like I wasn't going to be able to go back there. And so it was discussed that I go to Union instead. But I was adamant that I wasn't going to Union. And so I got the job over there at State, I went back. I don't know why I would've had anything against Union, but I just wanted to go to State.

13:13

Kara Miles

Union was a private school, wasn't it? So how would you—

14:04

Wallace M. Booker

Yeah, unions is—

14:06

Kara Miles

If you couldn't afford to stay at State, how would you have been able to afford?

14:08

Wallace M. Booker

Well, it'd have been less expensive because I live at home and just a matter of paying tuition to go to Union. I might've even had to walk to school. But Union never impressed me like State did.

14:11

Kara Miles

What was it about State that impressed you?

14:34

Wallace M. Booker

I don't know, maybe there was no logical reasons, because other people in the family had gone there. Let's see, how many people went there? My mother and 1, 2, 3 cousins and one husband of a cousin. They all.

14:38

Kara Miles

What kind of things did you used to do for fun there?

15:17

Wallace M. Booker

Oh, we played basketball, intramural sports, I'll put it that way. And what else did you do?

15:21

Wallace M. Booker

I don't know. They did travel to football games and stuff like that.

15:29

Wallace M. Booker

And I guess being away from home was another thing. It's a whole lot of unusual freedom that you never had before, which is attractive too. But what else did we do then? Again, memory fails right now. Because I can't think of anything it did other than that. Oh, after they built the pool, I swam a lot.

15:52

Kara Miles

Did you join any social clubs there?

16:37

Wallace M. Booker

No.

16:39

Kara Miles

Fraternities or anything?

16:39

Wallace M. Booker

No, I didn't.

16:39

Kara Miles

Were the fraternities on campus then?

16:43

Wallace M. Booker

Yeah, we have—let's see. They had Alpha, Omega, Sigma and Kappa. They had four fraternities. And of course they had the sororities, which was—

16:44

Kara Miles

None of the fraternities impressed you?

17:10

Wallace M. Booker

I didn't have the money. Yeah, I was a poor boy then.

17:14

Kara Miles

So did you want to join one and couldn't?

17:17

Wallace M. Booker

Not particularly, I wasn't, not really. Of course my mother tried to knock over the thing of not having money, since she said if I had wanted to ask her, she would've made provisions for it. But I never pushed the issue.

17:20

Kara Miles

Was your mother in a sorority?

17:42

Wallace M. Booker

No.

17:43

Kara Miles

You said that you had more freedom at State than you had at home?

17:50

Wallace M. Booker

Yes, naturally you would because you were on your own there. I can remember, I think the first time I ever stayed up all night was at school. But I finally got away from that too, because that didn't work with lessons. Staying up all night and so forth like that, hanging out all night. But that's what I'm referring to—nobody to challenge you there. Boys just free to do and go and come when they got ready. Because girls they had a different—yeah. It was different for them because they had a dormitory matron and so forth like that.

17:57

Kara Miles

But the boys pretty much didn't have any supervision.

18:54

Wallace M. Booker

No, no supervision at all. I don't know how it is now, maybe nobody has supervision now.

18:56

Kara Miles

So did you start dating there?

19:05

Wallace M. Booker

Yes, eventually.

19:13

Kara Miles

What kind of things would you do on dates?

19:18

Wallace M. Booker

Nothing, just sat around talking around the—stuff like that.

19:21

Kara Miles

You would meet somewhere on campus?

19:25

Wallace M. Booker

Yeah. You had socialize I think twice a week, something like that. Because I didn't, they had services on Sunday. I didn't bother with that.

19:27

Kara Miles

You didn't have to go to that?

19:49

Wallace M. Booker

Uh-uh.

19:54

Kara Miles

Oh, okay.

19:54

Wallace M. Booker

We had to go to, what do you call? Chapel, I think twice a week, Sunday and one other day in the week. Oh man. Yeah, they had a number on the back of the seat. And that number was supposed to be covered by you. Somebody sitting out of their seat, they see that number, you know your absence. So that's something you had to answer for. But other than that, it was really no restrictions at all.

19:55

Kara Miles

Why did you choose chemistry? Had you always liked chemistry or made what made you choose?

20:28

Wallace M. Booker

Yeah, I was very successful in chemistry in high school. And I continued with that and I decided I wanted to be a chemist. But I never succeeded at it. I had one in addition to this incident at Fort Belvoir, that I mentioned, I had one nibble from General Electric up in Lynn, Massachusetts. But they had a position for chemical engineer. But I didn't have chemical engineering. I had chemistry. So I never succeeded in getting a place in my field.

20:37

Kara Miles

So what did you do when you came out of college?

21:36

Wallace M. Booker

Taught at school.

21:38

Kara Miles

Taught chemistry?

21:38

Wallace M. Booker

Did I teach chemistry?

21:53

Wallace M. Booker

No, I never taught chemistry.

21:53

Wallace M. Booker

Looks like I taught everything but chemistry. I taught general sciences. Most of my teaching was in mathematics, algebra and general math. I believe I had geometry one time. I never taught physics. I taught biology. I taught civics. And I taught world history. I taught everything but chemistry. No, I never thought.

22:01

Kara Miles

Did you have to go back to school to get certified to teach history and civics and things?

22:39

Wallace M. Booker

No, that was just civil subject you might say. Now, I went to school in Virginia. I got a certificate for teaching in Virginia. But when I came to North Carolina, they didn't give me a certificate. I had to take either one or two courses before they gave me a certificate. And of course, I don't remember just what the courses were right now. But I took, I think, two correspondence courses. Excuse me. Before they gave me a certificate to teach here.

22:46

Kara Miles

Was that them giving you a hard time because you were Black or what?

23:34

Wallace M. Booker

I think it more because I was from out of state. Yeah, I think that was the situation. Of course race might have had something to do, but I had no way of knowing that at the time.

23:39

Kara Miles

So when was this that you came to North Carolina to teach?

23:53

Wallace M. Booker

1938. I taught in Virginia prior to that.

23:58

Kara Miles

Where? In Richmond?

24:15

Wallace M. Booker

No, Galax.

24:15

Kara Miles

Oh.

24:15

Wallace M. Booker

You never heard of it, I bet.

24:15

Kara Miles

I have.

24:15

Wallace M. Booker

Oh, you have? That's—yes, up there in the mountain. And left and came down here.

24:15

Kara Miles

What was that like? That was a different environment going into the mountains.

24:15

Wallace M. Booker

It was a world of difference.

24:27

Kara Miles

Tell me about that. Tell me about the differences.

24:28

Wallace M. Booker

Everything was different. The first difference, I know this is going to sound silly to you, I wanted to be on the train. And the train was so ancient, they had a stove inside the coach to heat it. I'd never seen that before or since. Of course, went up on the train and the train went up into Galax, and backed up and turned around, came back. That was the of the line. But it was a small four room school up there. The guy who was principal was a guy named Lawrence. And I don't recall who the other three fellows were. The other two fellows rather. But I was able to get out of there. Of course I lost money in coming here though. Because I was making $76 a month up there. I got 75 when I got to Newbern. I took a pay cut of a dollar.

24:39

Wallace M. Booker

But of course there was a whole world of difference. There's no activity up there in the mountain. They came down to Winston-Salem to get a haircut. No, uh-uh came down the mountain area to get a haircut. They got to Mount Air before you got to Winston-Salem off the mountain. But it was fascinating. I lived in the mountain and you see the clouds come down over the mountain, cover the top of the mountain, so forth. First time I saw swinging bridge, we had to go across a swinging bridge to get to—I don't know why I was going across that bridge, maybe going down into town or something. But like I said, it was a new experience.

26:09

Kara Miles

Were the children that you taught, was that a very poor area?

27:11

Wallace M. Booker

Oh yeah. It was poor, yes. Real hillbillies. That's such a mountain people. Again, I don't remember any White folks up that way. I imagine they were, there had to be some up there. Because the people had to work somewhere. But I don't remember now. Let's see, that's over 50 years ago.

27:14

Wallace M. Booker

So in my whole life, I guess I have been denied a whole lot of things, but made it some kind way.

27:59

Kara Miles

So when you left Galax, you came to Newbern?

28:14

Wallace M. Booker

Right.

28:15

Kara Miles

Why did you come to Newbern?

28:16

Wallace M. Booker

Well, I wrote to register at Virginia State about making a change. And apparently the people here had written to Virginia State for a teacher. And so she recommended me. Incidentally, the guy who I succeeded was a Virginia State graduate also. I guess she was satisfied with the Virginia State product. So she sent me and he accepted me here. I didn't plan to stay here, but I've been here ever since.

28:21

Kara Miles

I guess You must have liked it, huh?

29:14

Wallace M. Booker

That first day I said I didn't like this place, I was going to leave here. But then I got to living here, stayed here. After a couple years I married here. And so that settled it, I guess.

29:17

Kara Miles

Why didn't you like it when you first came? What didn't you like about it?

29:41

Wallace M. Booker

I didn't like the town. The streets with dirt. The streets weren't paved and no sidewalks. It just was not a—I don't know. This wasn't attractive to me. To come from Richmond in that area down here is like going in another world. Of course now it's different, things are different now, because everything looks different. The streets are different. The houses are different. In those days, many of the people didn't have running water. They had to go to the corner. They had hydrants on the corner that people went to get their necessary water and carry it home. So it was—and of course, after I got here, after I met people and went, I didn't have an automobile there, which rather made it difficult, they sort of got me really pinned down here. But it grew on me. So like I said, I'm still here. I guess I'll be here now.

29:45

Wallace M. Booker

I did leave once though, during the war I got dissatisfied with the salary here. Everybody else is making big money during the war. And I got an opportunity to go back to Richmond to work with the employment service. And there I went up there and stayed a couple of years, like four years I believe it was. That's all right. You don't have to tip.

31:30

Kara Miles

Well, can I get back?

32:04

Wallace M. Booker

Yeah, you can get back, just don't break my card. That's my wife.

32:05

Kara Miles

Thank you.

32:17

Wallace M. Booker

But I came back. I stayed back a little better than two years. I went to service, service less than two years, and then return here. Like I said, I've been here ever since. So I left, but I came back.

32:27

Kara Miles

Did you go to the service, were you drafted?

32:42

Wallace M. Booker

Yeah. Yes, I didn't go on my own. Let's see. Yes, I went to Texas, went to Florida, went to Salt Lake City and then went to the Philippines. And about then the war was over. And when I came back I went back to the employment service where I had left from. But I wasn't satisfied with that. So I was forced enough to get a job back in Newbern. So I came back.

32:45

Kara Miles

Tell me about that. Well, first tell me, once you were drafted, what did you think about having to go?

33:46

Wallace M. Booker

Oh, I hated that, every day of it. But it wasn't too bad after all. I didn't work hard. I didn't have any rough experiences. I worked in the office all the time. So I say it was just day's work. Yeah.

33:53

Kara Miles

What kind contact did you have with the White there in the Army?

34:17

Wallace M. Booker

It was still a segregated army. We had commanding officers who were White. Well, that's the only White we saw, everybody else is all Black units.

34:33

Kara Miles

How old did the commanding officers treat you or treat the Black troops?

34:51

Wallace M. Booker

There was one guy I hated. Every time I looked at him, just irritated me. But other than that, I got along all right with one exception. Now, I went to the Philippine Islands. Over there, the natives, I don't guess natives is a good word, but the Filipinos, would steal. We had a commanding officer who was a caramel, and his adjective was a major. That's up at Clarkfield, the other side of Manila. I don't know if you've heard of it or not. Anyway, the major had a Jeep that night.

35:03

Wallace M. Booker

He went to a club and he left the keys in the Jeep. Well, the MPs discovered it and reported it to the colonel who's in charge. Well, we in the office here. My desk is here and they over there. The colonel jumped all over the major for doing that, leaving those keys in that Jeep. Well, he caught me laughing at him. So he came to me and fussed me out. That's the other thing I didn't do, is just sit there and take it. But that colonel really laid him out for leaving those keys in that Jeep, because all those Jeep was not stolen that night because it could have been stolen because they will steal.

36:18

Wallace M. Booker

But other than that, no contact. The next guy in line over there that I had had was a Black guy from Washington. He was a lieutenant. And so everybody's Black except those two people.

37:20

Kara Miles

How did you get along with the Filipinos?

37:51

Wallace M. Booker

No problem. Yeah, they are good people.

37:56

Kara Miles

So when you came back here, you got another job teaching?

38:06

Wallace M. Booker

Uh-huh.

38:09

Kara Miles

At the same school?

38:10

Wallace M. Booker

Yeah.

38:11

Kara Miles

What school was that?

38:12

Wallace M. Booker

It was West Street School. West Street High School. Which is the one high school. Yeah. Because, again, there's still in the segregated school system. The Whites had their high school and we had ours. And again, we did everything separately. We didn't even meet together. So the head people, should appreciate integration because it cuts their work in half. Before they had to have work with the White and come meet with the Blacks, but now they do it all together.

38:14

Kara Miles

When did school integration come to Newbern?

39:13

Wallace M. Booker

We had a situation that they tried in the state of freedom of choice, and what they started out with here in Newbern, in the elementary school, we let the seventh and eighth graders decide whether they wanted to stay in the Black school or go to the White school. It didn't work the other way around. None of them decided to come to the Black school. And so they did it that way. And I don't remember the mechanics of the whole thing. But anyway, we reorganized about 1966, I would imagine. It was by that time in which they broke it down.

39:49

Wallace M. Booker

That seventh and eighth grade choice, we continued that on through the high school. And then we reorganized so that we had grades one, two, and three went to the White school. Four, five, and six went to the Black school. And then, they had a fire here. And I'm trying to wonder how that affected because—oh, we ended up all one, two, and three went to the White school, then all four, five and six went to the Black school and did it that way.

41:10

Kara Miles

All Black and White?

42:29

Wallace M. Booker

Yeah.

42:32

Kara Miles

1, 2, 3, went to one school.

42:36

Wallace M. Booker

Right. Yeah, that's the way it worked that way.

42:36

Kara Miles

What did you think of school integration when it came?

42:40

Wallace M. Booker

I don't remember any specific thoughts about the whole thing. I was principal at the time. And I know that I had to take some White teachers. And so my teachers go to the other school and they pleaded and they begged and so forth, they didn't want to go, but it wasn't a choice. But fortunately, the same thing the other way, as I know now. They didn't want to come over with me. But we got along all right. Never had any problem. In fact, the ones I got, turned out to be very hardworking people.

42:57

Wallace M. Booker

I had one, I think of one who's kind of lazy, I think. And I know of another one who apparently couldn't stomach it, and so she quit. Well, it worked smoothly here, I think. And of course, I see some of those people now. And they were friendly, no problem. And of course, with the other administrators, there was no problem with that, we all got along well. So I didn't object to it and it didn't work in a hardship on me. Now, some of the parents I know they resented me.

43:58

Kara Miles

Some of the Black parents?

44:55

Wallace M. Booker

No, White parents. Yeah, White parents. Most of the White children I know were quite all right. In fact, I saw one this morning working at the gas company. Oh, he was driving now. But other that that, maybe life hasn't been too bad after all.

44:55

Kara Miles

What did the Black parents think?

45:30

Wallace M. Booker

I don't recall any of them creating a static or anything.

45:41

Wallace M. Booker

I don't recall any great objection that they expressed to the integration. It worked rather smoothly. As I said, we had a fire and the fire destroyed much of the Black elementary school. And I think they felt that there was some.

45:45

RL00170-CS-0981_02

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John Hope Franklin Research Center