Colonel Johnson interview recording, 1994 June 22

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Paul Ortiz	Colonel Johnson, can you tell me about where you were born, and a little bit about the area that you grew up in?	0:03
Colonel Johnson	Well, I was born down South Alabama with my people, moved to Birmingham when I was about four years old, and I've been here ever since. I grew up on Sixteenth Street out here, in the front of this building, along down the street, four blocks down, until about four—up to four, five years old, and then I move down, west of town, stay there the next fifteen, twenty years, until I move where I'm now. I like moving west every trip and I live in West [indistinct 00:01:05] now.	0:11
Paul Ortiz	Can you tell me a little bit about your parents?	1:04
Colonel Johnson	Well, my old man was [indistinct 00:01:13] finish here, and he represented the union, representative for the cement masons and plasterers, local sixty-two Birmingham and five outlying counties here out from Birmingham, Jefferson, Shelby, and Tuscaloosa and [indistinct 00:01:47] St. Clair, but I'm not sure where [indistinct 00:01:54] I'm not sure where—I know the county but he was a union representative.	1:14
Paul Ortiz	Did he talk a lot about his experiences as union rep?	1:59
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, he talked a lot about it. His experience in going from town to town and he has been in sidewalks and streets in different little town. He was first a school teacher and it didn't pay enough money, thirty dollars a month, so that would made him stop teaching school and got him a job in a pipe shop down in—I believe it's [indistinct 00:02:49] Alabama, and he learned how to be a cement mason, and then he move to Birmingham and moved up to representative for the cement masons and plasterers.	2:02
Paul Ortiz	Was that a union that had Black and White workers in it?	3:07
Colonel Johnson	Well, it was supposed to be, but the power that be, the fella they put the head of the union. They would always have auxiliary, get the Black people in the head, there weren't really [indistinct 00:03:33] beginning, and the first beginning and it didn't have nothing but mostly Black in the cement business because it's real hard work. But now, White just about took it over because the money paid and demand that people need money, anybody working now. But back in the [indistinct 00:03:59] years, we could hardly get a White person to work that kind of work. But [indistinct 00:04:07] I label that with a lot of discrimination, more than even now.	3:12
Paul Ortiz	How about your mother? What was she doing?	4:12
Colonel Johnson	Housewife.	4:12
Paul Ortiz	And so, you grew up primarily in Birmingham?	4:23
Colonel Johnson	Yeah.	4:26
Paul Ortiz	What was your time like in Birmingham?	4:33
Colonel Johnson	I don't understand you.	4:33
Paul Ortiz	What was it like growing up in—	4:33
Colonel Johnson	Oh, well, let me see. I understood it from way back that Jim Crow wasn't illegal [indistinct 00:04:49] your life. I went to Parker High School. It was industrialized school when I went in, and the principal was Parker, but after he died they named the school Parker High School. By that time I went in, it was the biggest high school in America. [Indistinct 00:05:14] thirty-four youngsters in one class but we learned.	4:34
Paul Ortiz	What was [indistinct 00:05:24]?	5:19
Colonel Johnson	Hmm?	5:19
Paul Ortiz	What [indistinct 00:05:27] Parker?	5:24
Colonel Johnson	No, you couldn't tell [indistinct 00:05:29] apart he's just come from the Black race. He is the boss but he was eighty-seven percent White to be able to be proud to have [indistinct 00:05:40] sensation for him to be light and come out the Black race.	5:28
Paul Ortiz	What do you think about him?	5:48
Colonel Johnson	Well, he's a pretty nice guy. He see color on me, nothing [indistinct 00:05:57] character [indistinct 00:05:59]. He had good character. But he was a discriminator too.	5:59
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:06:11].	6:08
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, I can remember, when the government subsidies come along, they call it the YWA. YWA. It was the Youth—Young Workers Administration, [indistinct 00:06:42] come off from the WPA, Roosevelt put it into schools that you unprivileged people wasn't working. You could work, clean up around the school, they give us thirty dollars a month. And I had a friend named Maureen, but saying they had discrimination. His mother and dad [indistinct 00:07:10] they put him on it, and at that time my old man wasn't working with nobody in [indistinct 00:07:14] working [indistinct 00:07:16] sign up at the same time, and he got on it the first of the month and I never knew [indistinct 00:07:23].	6:11
Paul Ortiz	Why did he get it?	7:24
Colonel Johnson	He was real light. So, that was the pitch.	7:30
Paul Ortiz	Would that kind of thing happen in classrooms?	7:33
Colonel Johnson	No. But any certain occasions where—advantage, people used it. Even on the football team, when I was in elementary school, I've seen them play, some of the light skin boys that really wasn't qualified [indistinct 00:08:04] big show, and whose son they were, [indistinct 00:08:13] who you are, well you get a chance to play on the team, I can remember. And I don't remember the team we were playing. I think we're playing Abraham High from Bessamer. We played high school, when I was in elementary school in Lincoln School.	7:35
Colonel Johnson	We played a lot of high school, and the principal wanted his son to play and he really wasn't qualified, but superintendent of school was going to be out there that day and he wanted the superintendent to see his son on the ball field, so they put him up quarterback. He saw them big guys coming and he made a [indistinct 00:08:56] back, he [indistinct 00:08:57].	8:42
Paul Ortiz	Oh, let it go.	8:56
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, we lost the game on account of that.	9:00
Paul Ortiz	He was lighter-skinned?	9:05
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, he was real light, guy was named Albert Dobbins.	9:07
Paul Ortiz	Is there a lot of that kind of discrimination in the Black community [indistinct 00:09:26]?	9:17
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. Pretty much. It was a lot of it but not as much as from the White community but it was—you could tell.	9:24
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:09:42].	9:39
Colonel Johnson	Yeah.	9:42
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:09:47] your household?	9:55
Colonel Johnson	Well, it was myself my brother, and mother, and grandmother, grandfather, my father, and [indistinct 00:10:05], my dad had some brothers and one of those come in and stay with us. We always—lived through depression but we always never had to debate because we always had God at home, with God, every man that's drifting we [indistinct 00:10:35] hold [indistinct 00:10:36] and we'll never did have to think about getting out the house and then coming up paying rent or whatever, and we'd always had money to buy groceries.	9:57
Paul Ortiz	Do you have memories about your grandparents?	10:49
Colonel Johnson	Oh, yeah. My granddaddy was giant, he was a big man, and I can remember just like it was yesterday, I can remember in depression time, we lived across the street from A&P, the big sign up there, The Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company, that's what A&P meant, and [indistinct 00:11:32] age, seventy-five or eighty years old. They give him a job that's worth twelve dollars a week but you could get by on that. My old man wasn't working and he's glad that [indistinct 00:11:48].	10:55
Paul Ortiz	Do you ever remember [indistinct 00:12:00] kind of stories [indistinct 00:12:02] this time [indistinct 00:12:04]?	11:23
Colonel Johnson	Yes. He was a slave. He was eighteen years old and when the emancipation proclamation.	11:23
Paul Ortiz	Did he talk about slavery?	11:23
Colonel Johnson	Oh, yeah, he talked about it a lot. He talked about the—people would whip the slaves, different things like that to have a task, so much work they had to do per day. They didn't have—the slave master always had—what they would call field riders, and they'd have somebody to flog you. One of the other slaves, most of the time, the man—the slave master he just rolled around and give orders for other folks to do what they call flogging. But you got to use psychology—everybody liked him so he didn't hit nobody, he had it done.	12:32
Paul Ortiz	But you would talk about those [indistinct 00:13:27]?	13:26
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. And after slavery [indistinct 00:13:34] most people work just like they wanted to, with no union or nothing and no law to take. They got to work—pay you what he wanted to pay you. And they had a custom, they mostly went by custom instead of the law. If a Black man had children, the sheriff would have pick up some of the children and just take them to town—for the work—for the city or the town, whatever. Say you're paying your tax, road tax, for walking the road, that's what we had to do. But on up in life that people began to learn better, they balked against that, they wouldn't do it.	13:31
Colonel Johnson	It always been people that never was afraid that you couldn't make them do like you wanted them to do, after slavery. And he told me once upon a time, the guy he share-cropped for, give him a letter to give the sheriff, and before he got to the sheriff's office he stopped at the grocery store. They call it a [indistinct 00:15:17] store, but it's a grocery store. And the guy asked him—the store owner asked him, "What you got there, Bill?" He said, "I got a letter for the sheriff." He said "Let me see it." And he read it. He said "You throw that away. Your land owner, whatever you call him is saying, he's telling the sheriff to put you in jail." So, he throwed it away.	14:41
Paul Ortiz	What did you do when you're growing up in Birmingham in your spare time?	15:54
Colonel Johnson	Well, my first job in high school, I worked with the city ice delivery.	16:01
Paul Ortiz	And how did you do that?	16:06
Colonel Johnson	Well, I went around, and stood around, and asked for a job. They give me a job, a helper, they had—we had— it wasn't old refrigerators, they had ice boxes, and if a guy was a driver on an ice wagon and he made about twelve dollars a week at that time and the helper, the first helper, made about six dollars, second helper made about four, and the third helper made about two dollars and twenty-five cents, something like that, thirty-five cents a day, five or six days. And my next job, I had a job working for Wood Drug Company, riding a bicycle delivery. At the drug store I was a delivery boy and that job paid thirteen dollars for two weeks, six fifty a week. But it's more than I was making the first time, it was hard to get a job back in those days, a real job.	16:13
Paul Ortiz	When do you start to see [indistinct 00:16:53]?	16:53
Colonel Johnson	Oh, by '36.	16:53
Paul Ortiz	You were there [indistinct 00:16:53]?	16:53
Colonel Johnson	About a couple of years.	16:53
Paul Ortiz	And this was—were you still in high school when you were working?	16:53
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, I was going to high school and working. I worked at the [indistinct 00:18:12]—Birmingham?	16:53
Paul Ortiz	No.	16:53
Colonel Johnson	I worked at the [indistinct 00:18:15] apartment while I was going to high school and the [indistinct 00:18:20] lunchroom. They have a lunchroom and a drugstore combined, lunch [indistinct 00:18:26]. They didn't pay the [indistinct 00:18:29]. They had it well-organized and I worked there awhile. I had a little accident, I fell—it was raining and I fell and broke a gallon of Coca-Cola syrup. I lost that job. Then I started working for [indistinct 00:19:04] packing company.	16:53
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:19:04] packing?	18:59
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. [indistinct 00:19:09] dollar day and worked on up to 1943—March '43 but I got a raise, I was making a dollar and a half a day when I quit. I went to the railroad in '43, March thirty-one.	19:07
Paul Ortiz	And you had graduated from high school by then?	19:36
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. I was out of high school.	19:36
Paul Ortiz	[Indistinct 00:19:37]?	19:37
Colonel Johnson	[Indistinct 00:19:37].	19:37
Paul Ortiz	[Indistinct 00:19:57] come to go to the railroads.	19:55
Colonel Johnson	Well I was looking for a better security, and the guy I was working for, I was a good worker and he give me a week vacation. I went to a whole lot of different plants hunting jobs. Finally, my wife worked for the [indistinct 00:20:30], the [indistinct 00:20:32] mechanic for everyone [indistinct 00:20:34].	19:59
Paul Ortiz	Which railroad?	21:00
Colonel Johnson	The L&N Railroad Company. The L is for Louisville and the N is for Nashville, Louisville and National Railroad, but it's not anymore, it's CSX now. And my wife was telling [indistinct 00:21:06] about the long hours I working for a dollar and a half a day. Sometime I would go to work at five o'clock in the morning, get back nine at night, driving all out of town, everywhere, and she said, "Your husband is a good worker, I get him a job with the railroad, I tell my husband [indistinct 00:21:17]." So, my wife told me, if I were to work for the railroad, I could go out through the shop. And that week I was off.	21:05
Colonel Johnson	I always didn't want to work in the steel mill. I wanted the roller mill out in Bessemer and they pay four dollars and a half an hour. But the railroad didn't pay but two dollars and forty-five cents an hour, no. But they at that time, so—they didn't hire me up in Bessamer at the roller mill, would come back, the same buddy of mine I was telling you about in high school that they put on the [indistinct 00:22:09]. They deny either one of us, but after I saw how hard it was, I wasn't tickled by it, had two ambulances sitting at the gate.	21:33
Colonel Johnson	When you fall out, the ambulance, they take you to the hospital, that's how hard you was working. So then I come to TCI, and they wasn't hiring that day, from that we went to two or three different [indistinct 00:22:36]. So, I thought about what my wife told me about this [indistinct 00:22:40] would hire me. So, that next day was Tuesday, I went to the [indistinct 00:22:47] railroad shop and the men was standing out, they look like two or three hundred at the gate, and the man come out there, the employment officers, "We ain't hiring nobody today." So, everybody went to scattering and I still stood there, and it was five other guys standing out at the—police commissioners sent out there, and they told him, said "Mr. Eugene Connor sent us out here, you done hired." And he asked me, he said, "Who sent you out here?"	22:23
Colonel Johnson	I said, "Ms. Kramer told me to see Mr. Kramer," he said "We ain't hiring, but that's Mr. Kramer driving in the gate now. You can go see him but I ain't hiring nobody." [indistinct 00:23:39] Kramer is his boss too. So, we went on in and [indistinct 00:23:44] upstairs in a wooden building, and we went up there and stood in the [indistinct 00:23:50], with no place to sit down. They have [indistinct 00:23:55]. Mr. Kramer was [indistinct 00:23:59] Mr. Connor sent these five men, he answered, "This fella here claim your wife sent him."	23:21
Colonel Johnson	He hadn't knew my name. Said "[indistinct 00:24:10]" and I said "Yeah." He said "Write him up." He wrote me up and then he told them [indistinct 00:24:19] all six of us up, and we all went. Got a [indistinct 00:24:26] slip we went to the doctor. Next day, I come to work. That would be March the thirty-first, 1942, and I worked out there until January I believe—not January, November, a day before Thanksgiving. And I believe about the twenty-seventh of November, 1979.	24:03
Paul Ortiz	How long [indistinct 00:25:00]?	24:55
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. And now, retired sixteen years come and make it Thanksgiving. But I started over the labor, and I went from a labor to warehouse man, from the warehouse man to truck driver, from truck driver to this Black foreman, and then from foreman to assistant supervisor, and when I retired out of here, supervisor of my department. And could've stayed longer but I was through, well I promised the Lord if I could make a pension that I would be satisfied, when that time come I got out.	25:02
Paul Ortiz	How do you feel about the working conditions [indistinct 00:25:53]?	25:50
Colonel Johnson	Well, people [indistinct 00:25:55] everywhere else in the South, discrimination plus they were all White guys, and when you live in country town, about a truckload, some [indistinct 00:26:06] keep rank with the men in high school, because of the World War II. And you could be that way ten or twelve years and promotion time come you wouldn't get more but they would. They didn't go by—they supposed to went by seniority but they went by skin color. Other words, he was told to provide a qualification and seniority but they didn't go by it. If somebody didn't really vouch for you, you didn't get no promotion, up until in the late 40s and the early 50s. They went to promoting them because they were federal injunctions against the company.	25:58
Paul Ortiz	Who file that injunction?	27:03
Colonel Johnson	Well different people. One guy used to be county commissioner. He a Black guy named Ruben Davis. He filed one injunction. And before he filed here back in the 50s, we had a guy named D.W. Steel. Was a fireman, he filed an injunction, put a [indistinct 00:27:40] against it, railroad, for not [indistinct 00:27:44] violence, and that started the ball rolling. And then Ruben Davis was comes behind him for the shop men.	27:09
Paul Ortiz	Was that a—is that a union shop?	27:53
Colonel Johnson	Well, union was in the shop. But see when you say union shop, you got to be a member of the union to work there. They never did really get a union shop because they come in [indistinct 00:28:23]. Because of discrimination, if you make a man join the union, if you join on your own, you got to be union-minded, to really be a union man. Anyway, but they really, the union got strong enough for them to treat people like they should. That's when they went to cutting off, automation come along.	27:53
Paul Ortiz	About what time—what year was that?	28:51
Colonel Johnson	Automation come along in 1957, '58, and they cut off a lot of men, the strike come along the 1955 and the company retaliated about the strike, they cut off many men as possible. The railroad fight the union but they're over now. They don't call their organization a union, they call it the Melvin Railroad Association and they hold each other at a cut rate, if you would have a strike [indistinct 00:29:40] he's good, that company still survive.	28:51
Paul Ortiz	You mention that the union is getting stronger or the world [indistinct 00:29:50]—	29:46
Colonel Johnson	Yeah.	29:51
Paul Ortiz	Can you explain that?	29:51
Colonel Johnson	Well, you still—after, up in the 50s, they cut out [indistinct 00:30:03], and everybody [indistinct 00:30:06] they make everybody being the same union, the Federal Railway Labor Administration so you couldn't have separate union. In fact, they outlawed schools separate but equal, and it couldn't be separate and equal because now they were separate, the Black union didn't have the authoritative White head, wouldn't recognize it, [indistinct 00:30:39]. And then when they, "Oh, got it in one union."	30:00
Colonel Johnson	You still didn't have that one hundred percent representation that you should have had because they had more White people working [indistinct 00:30:56] Black. And that made it hard for a Black man to be a union representative, just like you voted in Oakland, if you don't have enough vote, you don't get in. A lot of White folks will tell you, when they merged, said "You a better union man than [indistinct 00:31:22], we want you." But when it come down to vote, and they wouldn't vote for you [indistinct 00:31:28]. If they was telling you they were going to vote for you, you did and most Black voted for you even [indistinct 00:31:36].	30:47
Paul Ortiz	So, if a Black worker has a [indistinct 00:31:36] and for the union [indistinct 00:31:46], how is the [indistinct 00:31:48]?	31:35
Colonel Johnson	Well, just the [indistinct 00:31:49] and the White guy would file it the same way, so you'd write up agreement and ask for investigation in the company with internal right [indistinct 00:32:03] back in the investigation will be more time, to [indistinct 00:32:16] just ready. [indistinct 00:32:16] involve [indistinct 00:32:17] too. And they pretty well called who the president is, [indistinct 00:32:28] mean to be right whether he's Black or White. You'd get a fair shake but if a matter of segregation, you can't work—how much stronger the union was, you wouldn't get a fair break.	31:48
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:32:47] are you referring to the union representative?	32:45
Colonel Johnson	Huh?	32:46
Paul Ortiz	Are you referring to the White union representative [indistinct 00:32:52]?	32:46
Colonel Johnson	Black and White. I've seen—to see when a man take the power in his office and then abuse it. Finally, he'll deal with me that way to start with, but finally he'd turned around and do the White man the same way, cause he didn't get by with the Black man, and he just cut it, he didn't have a ego. Once a fella got an ego, he tried it on the White man. We had a fella, his name was R. E. MacWilliam, Richard MacWilliam, we called him Dick MacWillliam, toughest man I've ever seen in my life, [indistinct 00:33:34], little White fella. About five foot, two or three, had a heavy voice, roared like a lion, and he was hell on White folks and double hell on Black ones, and you [indistinct 00:33:54] office, he abused his authority [indistinct 00:33:57], I've seen him curse men.	32:54
Colonel Johnson	I was—before he come to the shop in 1948, stayed 'til '53 and the things he talked about that he didn't like, he would fire a man about, he says "I'll fire you for stealing, [indistinct 00:34:21], and drinking, them were three things he'd fire you about and he had to resign for stealing. He got caught and in other words, I believe you he would have gotten by if he hadn't been doing so bad, see when you don't have no friends at all, he even abused some of the women and [indistinct 00:34:52] but White women. And [indistinct 00:34:57] segregation, the [indistinct 00:35:00] segregation, now he wasn't—I wouldn't call him a segregationist. He was just a man who abused his power, and he had had his way so long, he thought anything he done was—that was the law, and one of the segregationists [indistinct 00:35:29] a job, man working under the chief of police wrote him up and got him a job. But he was the wolf [laughs].	34:00
Paul Ortiz	You mention that the meetings at some point seemed to respond [indistinct 00:35:52]?	35:46
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, it got better.	35:46
Paul Ortiz	How is that?	35:46
Colonel Johnson	Well, after, [indistinct 00:35:57] the same union, and have better training and better treatment, God took a fear out of a lot of fellas. Folks like Reuben Davis comes along, Martin Luther King, [indistinct 00:36:15] Walker. See God sent them folks along to redeem the soul of America and they enlightened folks, see a lot of folks don't know right and don't know their left hand from their right. Even the folks in the city you going in, then the pride of education and education is like polished shoes, you dressed all up, got all looking for a shoe. It don't look good, [indistinct 00:36:55] a man can't even explain hisself well if he not educated.	35:54
Paul Ortiz	What was Birmingham like in the 40s or the 50s?	37:04
Colonel Johnson	Well in the 40s and 50s Birmingham progress was, up until 1937, the thing really got shook up. They had segregation with the [indistinct 00:37:34] all the time but in '37, they got a police commissioner in Birmingham, his name is Eugene Connor, and his nickname was Bull Connor, and he really spilled it up that he was already a disk jockey, radio announcer, and he was famous for calling ball games and when you run for commissioner, you [indistinct 00:38:01] like that, and he wasn't been there that much in education, he wasn't even a college man. But he was talking the talk that the Southern White man wanted to hear. Lot of rich folks wanted to hear because when you keep folks there [indistinct 00:38:21] and you can work folks like you want to at a disadvantaged price. So, the rich man agreed with the powers that be, that if they don't agree to a thing, it don't happen [indistinct 00:38:42].	37:12
Colonel Johnson	So, a lot of folks had a mind that go along with Bull Connor. He was representing a lot of folks, and he—the first I can remember, the first year he was in office, lot of rich folk had chauffers. Twelve, fifteen dollars a week, but at that time a man can [indistinct 00:39:07] because he advocated. Already, TV wasn't out then. Automobile is too simple to drive for the hiring man paying to see that [indistinct 00:39:25] your wife and you're gone. He says, "We rub two rocks together," oh, he had what I'm saying with the man, what he had thought and the way he speak, the man can sell favors to you, and he was selling segregation and a lot of folks bought it. They fired a lot, just lay them off, "Man, come in, we'll pay you or sell [indistinct 00:39:58]." My wife [indistinct 00:40:01] hard to drive, said "We don't need you no more." You [indistinct 00:40:07] twenty, twenty-five years.	38:38
Colonel Johnson	Other jobs, a lot of jobs, they wouldn't hire Black owned. [indistinct 00:40:17] you see Black owned now. They go White folk job, White man job. Didn't many White women work back in yesteryear, they was housewives. But they had the White man mastered all the job, and second class and third class job, they get it. Most of uneducated White would get the second class job, but on the third class job, Blacks got them. It was rough work like coal mine, [indistinct 00:40:54] mine, most of the Black got those jobs.	40:01
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember the Black business district [indistinct 00:41:04] at this time?	41:20
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. Yeah.	41:24
Paul Ortiz	Where would you go?	41:24
Colonel Johnson	Hmm?	41:24
Paul Ortiz	What would you go in the Black business district?	41:24
Colonel Johnson	Oh, they had a lot of restaurants, barbershop, beauty shop, Mr. [indistinct 00:41:24] had a Brown Bear [indistinct 00:41:26] Company two blocks over. And up until here lately, the system that the Black did, when you discriminate on folks, and don't give no work in [indistinct 00:41:46]. When you don't give a man no work. But the man from another city come in, folks drive to Birmingham, fifty, fifty miles—White—to work in Birmingham. They don't give young Black men job so that is making me assume he's going to nag at home when [indistinct 00:42:09]. They'll hire a man off the farm, he's got a big farm, he bring his vegetables to town, four thirty in the morning to sell them. He doe earn his money, then he goes to the factory and works, and then you got folks in your own town ain't working. That's happening right now only it happened back [indistinct 00:42:36], but it's happening now. It ain't enough job for all you educated folks.	41:24
Paul Ortiz	In those days that [indistinct 00:42:48] driving the Black business district, did you go, say to the movies, to the theater?	42:45
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, yeah. I used to go to movies.	42:53
Paul Ortiz	What kind of movies do you watch?	42:57
Colonel Johnson	Oh, all kind of movies, but mostly quiet actors. That's what programmed a lot of folks, when you see all the gangster pictures, young fellas think that's the way of life, they go out and get them a gun and rob, see, until the federal government make Hollywood straighten up. You've gone always have folk killing each other. That's what you're teaching. That we are laughing, it look like it's okay. You look on television, you see fella shoot a lot of folks fall down, and it really show you how to program, most all your pictures you see now. You see a cowboy pictured a White man, kill all the Indians. You're programming that one man, one White man, can have everything, and that makes the other fella program inferiority. But the young folks coming up, you can't fool them, so they go the other route, they won't give me no work, I'll take what I want.	43:03
Colonel Johnson	Most any time [indistinct 00:44:33], not just in South, no, East, West. See a lot of folks don't want the truth, that's why the Bible come in it. "Where is thy brother?" We're moving out any White community now. Everybody leave and take the money and leave your town desolate. One day, you [indistinct 00:45:06] giving [indistinct 00:45:08] and the law says, "Where are you brother?" "I live in downtown [indistinct 00:45:13]. Took all the job from me. Look around here and see all the [indistinct 00:45:19] in downtown." And they move out. A town have a Black mayor, business [indistinct 00:45:31] the shopping center, they build a neighborhood, to get out from where they were living. Lot of folks had give up their home and all to run away from their own neighborhood.	44:52
Paul Ortiz	In the 1950s, before the Civil Rights Movement started, were Black people in Brimingham challenging [indistinct 00:45:56]?	46:00
Colonel Johnson	Did they what?	46:00
Paul Ortiz	Were they challenging the [indistinct 00:46:00]?	46:00
Colonel Johnson	Well, a few, not as many, there's always been somebody to stand up. Like Frederick Douglass and folks like Benjamin Hook, Thurgood Marshall, Sojourner Truth, I guess you read your history, Tubman and Bethune. All—life has always been a struggle—freedom is a struggle—	46:03

Paul Ortiz	So do you remember people in Birmingham doing particular things to challenge, to push [indistinct 00:00:11]—?	0:03
Colonel Johnson	Oh, yeah. We used to have a Black editor named Emory O. Jackson. He used to write up a lot of wrongdoings in the paper. He was threatened when I was a boy. He was the editor of the Black paper, The Birmingham World, that was printed in Atlanta and shipped over here.	0:04
Colonel Johnson	And we still got the Birmingham World, but Emory O. Jackson is dead. But he wrote articles, editorials, up against Jim Crow. If you would talk to the guy on it now, he could he give you a lot of what I'm giving you. His name is—	0:32
Paul Ortiz	Jackson?	1:00
Colonel Johnson	—Dixon.	1:01
Paul Ortiz	Oh. Joe Dixon?	1:01
Colonel Johnson	Joe Dixon. You talked with him?	1:04
Paul Ortiz	I've heard of the name, but [indistinct 00:01:07].	1:04
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, he owned the Birmingham World. He's a young fellow though, but he's well-versed in his history. But Emory O. Jackson used to make speeches. Not as fiery—you see, you didn't have no TV. They segregated you on radio. Didn't no Blacks have no radio station like they got now. A lot of Blacks have radio stations here in Birmingham now, at least four or five different companies that I know.	1:11
Colonel Johnson	But back in those days, they didn't, a fellow would go to the church and speak. And when he spoke out, a lot of the preachers and the folks in the church was afraid and they wouldn't invite him back. See, God always sends somebody to enlighten folks, but if you don't let him come in and speak, the word don't get out. And that's what keeps your folks in the dark.	1:52
Paul Ortiz	Emory Jackson was the kind of person that would speak out?	2:21
Colonel Johnson	Huh?	2:23
Paul Ortiz	Emory Jackson [indistinct 00:02:26]?	2:24
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. Right.	2:25
Paul Ortiz	Were there any other people in Birmingham during that time that would also speak out?	2:29
Colonel Johnson	Well, yes and no. You had a preacher that really taught folks they had to step forward. His name was Reverend W. M. Thornton. He was an old fella. But you're always going to have somebody to speak out. But you haven't ever had anybody to speak out like Martin Luther King and Fred Shuttlesworth. Fred Shuttlesworth was the guy that invited Martin Luther King to Birmingham to help out.	2:36
Colonel Johnson	What put Martin ahead of everybody else, he was a real speaker. He spoke, he didn't have to—he had it in his head and in his heart, and he had the Bible to back him up. Anything he said, he could go tell you what chapter, what verse in the Bible to read. Folks like that, God sent them to redeem the souls of men. But the folks that need to know it, seldom come out. Black and White, your preachers, they wouldn't come meet Martin Luther King. He had a message from God, but folks didn't come to hear.	3:16
Colonel Johnson	If the folks had come out and listened to Martin Luther King like folks come out and listened to John the Baptist when he was preaching in the wilderness—he redeemed the folks back in those days and got them ready for Christ to come. Martin Luther King was getting the folks ready for this new day. And the new day is here.	4:10
Colonel Johnson	But as they didn't teach the folks, preachers don't know what to tell the folks. That's where all your little outlaw, Black and White, on dope. Haven't had any teachers.	4:33
Paul Ortiz	What kind of a person was Reverend Shuttlesworth?	4:36
Colonel Johnson	Oh, Shuttlesworth was fiery. He talked the same talk Martin Luther King talked, but Martin come along with auditorial rhyme. He spoke and he could rouse. Shuttlesworth spoke, but iron hand speech. But he spoke with authority. They was both on the same order, but Martin was just a little calmer in his speech than Fred. But both of them were giving the truth and they were redeeming the soul of America. That's what they were doing.	4:56
Colonel Johnson	And it's in your Bible there, and I can tell you about what book it is. Proverbs. Shuttlesworth was telling these preachers what their duties was. It's the preacher's duty to cry out for the needy. And when you cried for the needy, they'll kill you. So you just tell folks what they supposed to do for poor folks, and then the world will hate you.	5:45
Colonel Johnson	In it, if you read your Bible, all the prophets wasn't trying to gain nothing for themselves. They was trying to do something for other folks. They were serving. If you cry out for the needy and you be a servant, they'll put you to death.	6:26
Colonel Johnson	That's what Kennedy was killed about. They didn't have nothing against Kennedy. They didn't have no need to kill him. But he started doing things for poor folks. And then he done it for poor Blacks. And the rest of them had been doing it for everybody else but Blacks. And he just was doing the same thing for everybody until they put him away.	6:53
Colonel Johnson	Then when Dr. King come along, he went there and enlightened the folks. And the folks didn't want the poor folks to be enlightened, so they had to kill him. Robert Kennedy the same way. See, God picked them folks, and the power that be got rid of them.	7:20

Paul Ortiz	Mr. Johnson, when we spoke the first time you talked to me about your job at Louisville National Railroad, and mentioned that there was discrimination at that place.	0:04
Colonel Johnson	Oh yeah.	0:18
Paul Ortiz	Can you tell me a little bit about the job structure and what kind of discrimination existed there?	0:20
Colonel Johnson	Well, they had certain jobs that you got on them and you stayed. White would come along, you'd teach them the job. And then promotion time come, they would get promoted. And you been doing the teaching, you wouldn't get no promotion, until after Dr. King and Sherwood come along and we had a few cases. That's when we was getting promotion, but before then, uh-uh.	0:27
Paul Ortiz	Wow. Now you mentioned that there was a union there also?	1:01
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. But in my department, they didn't accept Blacks in the union up until we put in the complaint. After we put in a complaint, then they sent a man down to organize Black. But it still wasn't full fledged. Instead of being a full-fledged union member, you was in the auxiliary, which would kind of be like a stepchild.	1:09
Paul Ortiz	What was the name of that union?	1:43
Colonel Johnson	Brotherhood Railway Clerk. It's a different union now. You know what I'm saying? It's different. They don't go for discrimination anymore. They got a lot of benefits for everybody now. But they didn't back yesteryears.	1:45
Paul Ortiz	And do you remember what year that they started organizing Black workers? Was it after '63?	2:04
Colonel Johnson	No, it was in the 40s.	2:12
Paul Ortiz	It was in the 40s.	2:13
Colonel Johnson	Mm-hmm.	2:13
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Now, when you would get off of work and you had some spare time, say to do shopping or going out to eat or something like that, where would you go?	2:19
Colonel Johnson	Well, we had some nice Black restaurants. The most exclusive restaurant was Bob's Boy, fellow wanted to get a good steak you went to Bob's Boy. This guy, I think his name was William or something, or Robert Williams, but they called him Bob. He runs the Boy restaurant. They had lounge and everything. You get anything from a Coca-Cola on up to gin or rum or you name it, any kind of mixed drink. But they had good food. They specialized in steak dinners. By being segregated like it was, the police just hung out there. They was White policemen. They hung out there and they eat free.	2:33
Paul Ortiz	Robert Williams was Black?	3:39
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, yeah. Robert Williams was a Black man. They took advantage of him, because it was hard to get liquor license like that. And police would go there, they would eat and they would pay for nothing.	3:40
Paul Ortiz	Ah. Were there other places on Fourth Avenue?	3:58
Colonel Johnson	Well, you had had Nasa's Cafe. I'm giving you the top places right now, but the only places I would go to somewhere. I didn't go to no greasy spoons, they call them.	4:01
Paul Ortiz	Oh, you didn't like the greasy spoons?	4:13
Colonel Johnson	No. He had a high class restaurant was Nasa's Cafe. And then you had one they called Fraternal Restaurant.	4:18
Paul Ortiz	Was that in the Mason's building?	4:30
Colonel Johnson	No, it was in the Pythians— in the Fraternal building, the Pythians owned it.	4:33
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	4:37
Colonel Johnson	It was in the seven—sixteen hundred block of Fourth Avenue. They just tore it down last year. You can't see it from here, but it would be behind that building there.	4:39
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	4:55
Colonel Johnson	It was owned by Mrs. Eva Lou Russell. I guess she retired eight or ten years ago. You had a nice middle class eating shop. Folk wanted soul food they went to Jambos.	4:56
Paul Ortiz	And that was also on Fourth Avenue?	5:26
Colonel Johnson	It was right across the street then crossing sixteenth Street. It used to be a big building there where that parking lot is.	5:29
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	5:35
Colonel Johnson	That was Jambos, and he specialized in soul food.	5:39
Paul Ortiz	Now you mentioned there were greasy spoon places, too. I don't suppose you remember the name of any of those places?	5:41
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. You had the famous restaurant right next to the famous theater and you had the Champion Theater and then you had the Champion Restaurant right next door. And down in the next block you had Idea Cafe. Now the Idea cafe was owned by a White, but Black and White ate there. They had one side for Black, one side for White.	5:57
Paul Ortiz	Did you ever go into that cafe?	6:30
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, when I was working for the packing company before I went to railroad shop, when my money wasn't as good as it was at the railroad I ate where the food was cheaper.	6:33
Paul Ortiz	Oh, it was cheaper there at the Idea Cafe?	6:45
Colonel Johnson	Mm-hmm.	6:47
Paul Ortiz	Yeah, because I was just thinking that since there were Black-owned businesses where you could sit down anywhere, then here's the Idea Cafe, it's segregated.	6:48
Colonel Johnson	Right.	6:58
Paul Ortiz	Would people tend to shy away from the Idea Cafe or it doesn't make any difference?	6:58
Colonel Johnson	The food was cheap and money was scarce. A lot of White come there because the food was cheap. It was a different side. In other words, they had partition between the Black and White in the restaurant. They had a lot of restaurant, but around town there was partition. And then they had some restaurants, Blacks had to go to the back and get, I call them a handout, but I didn't go there.	7:06
Paul Ortiz	Why not?	7:45
Colonel Johnson	Because if I wasn't welcome in the front door, I wasn't welcome period. In other words, if a man make his dollar half cent, he don't spend it where it don't seem like he's welcome.	7:46
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Was that kind of a militant stand at that time? Did other Black people take that kind of stand? Now this is in the 30s, right?	7:57
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. It's a few, a lot of folks went to a lot of places because they had good food and they would go to the back. They had a Chinese restaurant on Third Avenue. They didn't serve Blacks, you couldn't go in there and sit down and eat, but you could go to the back door through the alley and get a meal. But you had to—it was carry out. I used to know the name of it. One of them was Joy Young. They moved out of Birmingham in Homewood. They're still over there. I guess some of the young folks got it. But it was nice for who they wanted to go. The Alabama Theater, Blacks could go there on up in the 50s, but you had to go around on the side. I figure if I couldn't go to the front, I didn't go.	8:10
Paul Ortiz	Did you talk to friends about this issue back then about whether you go to a place that's [indistinct 00:09:24]?	9:18
Colonel Johnson	Oh yeah. I can remember. Not just Birmingham. I've been to places working for undertakers, funeral home parlor they call. And funeral, go out in the country in little town, south and west Alabama. You want something to eat, you had a hole in the wall. You go there and you pay for it and they stick it out the window. But I'd rather wait until I got back home.	9:24
Paul Ortiz	Wow. What would you do when you would travel back in those days, like if you were visiting relatives?	9:57
Colonel Johnson	Well, a fellow just had to be careful because you couldn't go to a restroom, not even at the service stations. There's a rare few. Most are White service station, you couldn't go to the restroom. Three or four cars going the same direction, stopping to buy gas at one station and then they tell you, "We don't have no restroom for colored folks." So you'd have to stop on the road and go out in the woods. And then if you happen to didn't go far enough out in the woods, they'll arrest you for exposing yourself to the public. That's how segregation went back in those days. I seen Black go in a store and folk wouldn't sell them a Coca-Cola. You could buy RC Cola, Pepsi Cola, but Coca-Cola was something—and it was ignorant folk didn't know no better. Even the White, they didn't know no better. They wanted the money, but they said, "This drink for White folk, Coca-Colas."	10:03
Paul Ortiz	Why was that? You could buy RC but not Coke?	11:25
Colonel Johnson	Yeah.	11:29
Paul Ortiz	Why was that?	11:30
Colonel Johnson	Just custom. In other words, they thought it was right, but it wasn't. See when a person's ignorant to the fact a lot of folks lost money because they was going along with the system. That's the system.	11:33
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember any guidebooks that people could use, that Black people could use, back then to help them when they traveled?	11:50
Colonel Johnson	No.	12:02
Paul Ortiz	To help them stay away from places that might be very racist?	12:03
Colonel Johnson	No, but you could see signs. I've seen signs in Philly stations out on Highway seven, eight before we get in the house in Alabama. Not what somebody told me. I seen it with my own eyes. "We sell gas to White people only." So if you're out of gas, you couldn't get no gas there.	12:06
Paul Ortiz	Did you know people in the 40s and 50s who lived in Ensley?	12:32
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, I had an uncle who lived in Ensley. I used to walk from Birmingham to Ensley to Bar Hill [indistinct 00:12:46]. Drive on Sunday.	12:37
Paul Ortiz	What kind of neighborhood was Ensley?	12:50
Colonel Johnson	Ensley like back here. A lot like Birmingham. Other words, Ensley was a part of Birmingham. They had a little police station out there. It was on about Seventeenth Street and Avenue G. And the building's still there, and the city of Birmingham still owns it. Black guy got a carpenter shop there.	12:53
Paul Ortiz	Was Ensley a neighborhood that Black people would move into to buy a house?	13:27
Colonel Johnson	Well, yeah, Black and White. Other words, that was where the steel mill was. All kind of folk lived out there. Immigrants, Polish people, they call them Polack. Australian, Black, Italian, you name it. A person wanted a job, wasn't a lot of positions like it is now because it didn't have all this new technology. You'd be surprised how many folks was working. I mean, really hard work, manual work, pouring iron, and cutting sand and stuff like that. And that was really hard jobs. But you still had places for poor folk were down on the low end of the totem pole, but you didn't see a lot of folk around that wasn't working like you do now. Houses was built to accommodate poor folks. They built houses. They keep your mind thinking low. You could get a cheap house, a little shotgun house, five dollars a month rent.	13:35
Paul Ortiz	In Ensley?	15:08
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, and some place in Birmingham too. In certain places—now I have never seen any houses in the alley in Ensley around Birmingham on South side and North side, they had houses all in the alleys.	15:09
Paul Ortiz	For Black people?	15:28
Colonel Johnson	For Black. They was built for Black. And they was built to keep your mind low, where you wouldn't think you needed anymore than what you had. And they had neighborhoods for White. Even in Ensley, we got Highland. Didn't no Black live on end of Highland. White people lived there, and they had a lot of home houses around Highland. Got a little place between Birmingham and then they called Midway. And there was a doctor stayed in there. When Blacks come through there walking, sometime he shoot at them. I used to know his name. I forgot it now. But he done that so long he thought he was right. When his mind finally blanked out on him, when the police went out to arrest him after things got better, he still tried to do it. And the house, they be still out there. Last time I was out that ways on Pike Road and Bush Boulevard. Excuse me.	15:29
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember a place called Dynamite Hill?	16:40
Colonel Johnson	Oh yeah.	16:44
Paul Ortiz	Can you tell me a little bit about that?	16:45
Colonel Johnson	Well, on top of the hill, White folk lived up there. And down about Tenth Avenue Black lived from Tenth Avenue back. And Center Street go right over Dynamite Hill, down between Eighth and Tenth Avenue where the best Black houses was in Birmingham. The cream of the crop, they called it Smithfield. But on up on the hill there was White, and they had a lot of vacant land and let the trees grow up between the Blacks and the White. And finally, end of '59 and 60s Blacks went to buying up there. One young man had nine or ten lots up there, Black guy, his name was Forrest Hawkins. He bought nine or ten houses and lots and put houses on them. And all those, if they didn't bomb White folks set them on fire to clear the clutter.	16:48
Paul Ortiz	All ten?	18:06
Colonel Johnson	Every one of them. I'm thinking that's what encouraged him to leave Birmingham. He owned Deluxe Cab Company. He was doing good. He was the first Black cab company, and maybe been the first cab company that had radio dispatched cabs. I know he was the first Black and he might have been the first cab company, and he was a young fella. Him and his brother and daddy had a standard service station down in Smithfield out on Eighth Avenue between Fifth and Sixth Street North. They had a service station.	18:06
Colonel Johnson	He really progressed in life because I know when he was a paper boy carrying the Birmingham News. When he come out of school, his daddy had an old Whippet. They don't make that kind of automobile. Nash company made them. Oh, it was a Nash, Whippet Nash. They would throw papers out that car. They was making a good living doing it. But that car would be just packed with papers. His daddy would be driving, he would be throwing the papers out. And the next thing I know he went in the taxi business and bought him a couple of taxis. He drove one, his daddy drove one. And next he got another one. His brother drove one. From there they went to ten or twelve and on up. I don't know how many they had in all, but he really just went on up in life. And the name of the cab company with Deluxe Cab Company.	18:59
Paul Ortiz	Deluxe Cab Company?	20:02
Colonel Johnson	Mm-hmm.	20:03
Paul Ortiz	Now the last time that we talked, you told me about Bethel Baptist Church.	20:06
Colonel Johnson	Yeah.	20:12
Paul Ortiz	And about Reverend Shuttlesworth.	20:13
Colonel Johnson	Mm-hmm.	20:15
Paul Ortiz	And you mentioned that for a time you couldn't get into Sixteenth Street Baptist Church before—	20:15
Colonel Johnson	Right.	20:26
Paul Ortiz	Could you tell me a little bit more about that?	20:27
Colonel Johnson	Well see, Sherwood Pastor Bethel Baptist Church, that would be your headquarters. They had the movement there more than they did anywhere else.	20:29
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	20:39
Colonel Johnson	And your next headquarter church was—other words, it wasn't the headquarter, but the next liberal church was St. James Baptist, Eleventh Street and Sixth Avenue, four blocks down the street.	20:40
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	20:59
Colonel Johnson	Right across from [indistinct 00:21:02] Hotel.	21:00
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	21:06
Colonel Johnson	And the next church was Thurgood C.M.E.	21:06
Paul Ortiz	Thurgood C.M.E.	21:12
Colonel Johnson	Methodist.	21:13
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	21:13
Colonel Johnson	And you had Sardis on [indistinct 00:21:22] Ridge. That's where the movement was organized, at Sardis.	21:17
Paul Ortiz	Now you didn't mention Sixteenth Street Baptist.	21:33
Colonel Johnson	Well, it hadn't come in.	21:36
Paul Ortiz	Oh.	21:37
Colonel Johnson	You had New Pilgrim. And every Monday night they would meet from one church to other one. Sixteenth Street come in there behind those churches. Sixteenth Street, Grant Chapel, Zion Star, Boys Baptist, Zion City, that's out in East Lake on east side of town. Then you had churches like—boy, I can't think of this church. Boys Baptist of Ensley. And there's another church in Ensley. I can think of the preacher's name, but I can't think of the church. The preacher was named LR Jackson. They made it a practice. They informed all the folks in town they'd have a meeting every Monday night. It'd be in a different section of town. And then when they started meeting at 16th Street under the Reverend Luke Bid. He was very aggressive, very intelligent. He mixed right in with the other preachers, civil right preachers. And then he got sick and he died. And then John Cross come to 16th Street, and that's where the bombing was under John Cross.	21:40
Paul Ortiz	Okay. And now the first group of churches that you named, these churches were like the trailblazers.	23:32
Colonel Johnson	Yeah.	23:46
Paul Ortiz	Bethel Baptist, St. James, Thurgood CME.	23:47
Colonel Johnson	Right.	23:49
Paul Ortiz	I'm curious though. I had heard before that 16th Street was one of the first churches. Basically you're saying that 16th Street came behind these other churches.	23:50
Colonel Johnson	It had to be behind Sherwood. Sherwoods Church, Sadas where they organized it. Reverend Oriel Afford was the pastor. Sherwood was Bethel. You couldn't go to Bethel on the south side. See a lot of Black churches wouldn't accept the meeting because those that weren't afraid of being bombed or intimidated, they're afraid they would get fired off the job. They use that for a reprisal against Blacks. If they caught you out working in the movement, you didn't have no job.	24:06
Paul Ortiz	I see. Was there any difference in the kinds of people that went to Bethel Baptist as say the kind of people that went to 16th Street Baptist Church in terms of maybe professions?	24:46
Colonel Johnson	Well, it was a few. But this church, he had a lot of professional folks.	25:03
Paul Ortiz	On the 16th Street?	25:07
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. And Bethal Baptist, most of the folks worked at US Pipe, railroad companies and medical radiator, Birmingham Stone Range, places like that. Bethal Baptist all mostly working class folks. You might have had maybe two or three school teachers, but over here you probably had three or four dozen.	25:08
Paul Ortiz	Oh, at 16 street?	25:46
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. A lot of principals, doctors, lawyers, you name it.	25:47
Paul Ortiz	After the bombing was 16th Street under Reverend Cross able to maintain the energy?	26:01
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. The bombing was under Cross. Cross was passed. Then when the bombing was and afterwards. Then after things cooled off, I don't know what happened to Cross. He went to Atlanta. But he comes over here when they have something big, they invite him.	26:11
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	26:33
Colonel Johnson	And then they had Crutcher, James Crutcher, behind Cross. And behind Crutcher, the man over there now Hamlin, Chris William Hamlin.	26:35
Paul Ortiz	Oh, I have one more question. Was Bethel Baptist downtown or was it-	26:51
Colonel Johnson	No, it was out in Birmingham.	26:56
Paul Ortiz	North Birmingham?	26:59
Colonel Johnson	North Birmingham. 29, 32— Wait a minute. Hold a minute. 32, 29. 29th Avenue.	26:59
Paul Ortiz	Is that where Reverend Battle is?	27:18
Colonel Johnson	Sherwood. That's where Battle is now.	27:19
Paul Ortiz	Yeah. Okay.	27:22
Colonel Johnson	Battle is the system pastor. Battle had never pastored the church. He had been preaching a long time, but his sister pastor. The guy that pastored the church to now, that Battle works under, he's a young fella. I can't call his name, but Battle's not the pastor.	27:22
Paul Ortiz	I think that we were going to do an interview with him.	27:51
Colonel Johnson	With Battle?	27:55
Paul Ortiz	Yeah. Who else do you think would be good to talk with from Bethel that's human rights?	27:56
Colonel Johnson	Well, you see, everybody won't give your church a fair shake. You want a true story, now I got a man I know been out there a long time, but— Cut that off a minute. Some things you don't really— You know what I'm saying?	28:03
Paul Ortiz	Right.	28:28
Colonel Johnson	It just don't look right or sound right. This young man that really know the story about Beth Baptist Church is Reuben Davis, Commissioner Reuben Davis. He took a lot of pictures of the church when it was bombed and everything.	28:29
Paul Ortiz	Bethel?	28:50
Colonel Johnson	Bethel. Bethel was bombed at least three times that I can witness. Somebody says four times. I don't remember but three. Be as it may, it may be four times. Sometimes something you can forget.	28:55
Paul Ortiz	Do you know his number out there?	29:16
Colonel Johnson	His phone number? No. But you got a phone book, I can give it to you. His name's Reuben Davis. R-E-U-B-E-N. He lived way out now because after he got in the chips he bought him a mansion. He's the superintendent of Sunday School. His daddy was the superintendent of Sunday School for 50 years there. He come in under his daddy.	29:18
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Well, Mr. Johnson, I have one more question that I wanted to ask you.	29:46
Colonel Johnson	No problem.	29:54
Paul Ortiz	I've heard people from different churches, who were members of different churches in the '40s and '50, talk about voting rights and seminars before the founding of the Alabama Christian for Human Rights. Can you tell me a little bit about those voting rights seminars and where they would take place?	29:55
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. Other words, they had places, like they had voting rights seminars at 16th Street Church. They had them at the Masonic Temple. Not most all, but a lot of Black churches had voting rights seminars where the folks was aggressive enough to take on the responsibility. You see, you had so much odds against you after Bull Connor come in 1937. If somebody come in to teach you how to vote, they put him in jail. Senator Taylor from Utah, a United State Senator, come here to speak. And the little wooden church is a vacant corner on past 16th Street is a little wooden building. They put everybody in jail in there.	30:15
Colonel Johnson	I can remember just like it was yesterday. I lived full blocks down the street. Me and my wife were walking to town on Sunday evening and they had been advertising it, put fliers out. You're going to always have pimps. Somebody told Bull Connor about it. This guy was coming. He called it a mixed gathering. This one White man is going lecture to some Blacks. Senator Taylor is his name. I'm trying to think of his first name. He had been a movie star and he run for Senator and they got it just like that. He was going talk to those folk and learning them how they vote and all, and they didn't want Black to vote. So Bull Connor had the police there to put him in jail, and everybody else in the church.	31:22
Paul Ortiz	And which church? That was—	32:15
Colonel Johnson	That was a little offspring. I don't even remember the name of it. It wasn't a Baptist, a Methodist, a Presbyterian, Apostolic church. It was just some little way out name. I don't really remember, but it was a church. Oh boy, that guy was a cowboy actor. I remembered the name for years, but I really can't call it now.	32:17
Paul Ortiz	Did that incident happen in the '40s?	32:58
Colonel Johnson	No, that was in the '50s.	33:02
Paul Ortiz	In the '50s?	33:03
Colonel Johnson	Mm-hmm.	33:04
Paul Ortiz	When did the-	33:06
Colonel Johnson	And it could have been in the '40s now, but it had to be way up in the '40s, because I had married. I married in 1942 and lived right down the street there, four blocks.	33:07
Paul Ortiz	So when did the other voting rights seminars begin happening to your remembrance?	33:19
Colonel Johnson	Oh.	33:26
Paul Ortiz	Did they go back a ways?	33:27
Colonel Johnson	The NAACP always did have voting rights seminars back. I can remember hearing about them in the '30s. But now they really had them after— Oh, when Miss Geneva Lee was the executive secretary of the NAACP.	33:32
Paul Ortiz	Miss Gene-	33:57
Colonel Johnson	Geneva.	33:59
Paul Ortiz	Geneva.	34:00
Colonel Johnson	G-E-N-E-V-A.	34:01
Paul Ortiz	Okay. And what was her last name?	34:03
Colonel Johnson	Lee. L-E-E.	34:05
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	34:07
Colonel Johnson	Now she was a really aggressive business woman. Once they had a post office down in Smithfield in the Black community across from Parker High School. She had a lot of seminars, but it was through the NAACP. I don't remember who the president back in the old days was, but I know she was the executive secretary. That's who you paid your money to get your membership from.	34:08
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Okay. Did you notice in the '50s an increase in political activity by Black people?	34:34
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. It's a Black Democratic club they had, and I think they're still going on. But at that time, lawyer shows, AD shows. Lawyer David Hood was the head of it. David Hood lived in Bethlehem, that's 12 miles from Birmingham. But they was the head of it. And then come along behind them was Arthur Billingsley. Sure he's still living, David Hood. Sherwood up in his 80s, but he's still living.	34:53
Paul Ortiz	Okay. So you mentioned that there was the NAACP under Miss Lee, who was more aggressive. The Black Democratic Club came to being. Were there other kinds of grassroots organizations early [indistinct 00:35:58] the ground root groups?	35:44
Colonel Johnson	No, NAACP was really the thing. And this Democratic— I know the name was Charles Pilsen is the head of it, not Charlie Pilsen, is the head of it at the present time.	36:00
Paul Ortiz	How about World War II? Do you think that World War II had-	36:22
Colonel Johnson	I didn't understand.	36:28
Paul Ortiz	Did you think that World War II had an impact on political activism and Black people?	36:29
Colonel Johnson	Little bit. Little bit.	36:37
Paul Ortiz	Little bit?	36:40
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. You see, your laws already out there, it take somebody to implement them. When Reuben Davis went to the Army, the same guy I was telling you a member of the church. He worked for the railroad just like I did. And when it wasn't promote Blacks, you had a law, federal labor law. Any time you'd be drafted and go to the Army, wherever you was working that they're supposed to have your job reserved. Any promotion was due you, the law said they must promote you. And there wasn't no color line or nothing, just person. And Reuben Davis made them implement that law. And from then on, he was a [indistinct 00:37:36] guy until they fired him.	36:40
Paul Ortiz	Who fired him?	37:36
Colonel Johnson	The company.	37:36
Paul Ortiz	The company?	37:36
Colonel Johnson	But see now, I wouldn't brand it the company. It's the folks they had hired, the White people they had hired, the segregationist. See, that's what makes your law. When you put a fellow over your company, if he's not fair, then the law go to where he wanted to go. Most all companies, if a person's fair that owns it, he means for the law to be administrated like it's supposed to be. But he put somebody else over it, and then they turn and go the other way, you couldn't put it all on the company because a whole lot of time the man owned the company don't know what's going on.	37:42
Paul Ortiz	Right.	38:25
Colonel Johnson	And you'd be surprised. These big companies, big companies, a lot of folks they have that they furnish the money, but they don't know exactly what go on. And until a fellow riding up with somebody— I'm trying to think of what they call it. They blow the whistle.	38:25
Paul Ortiz	Ah, whistleblower? Yeah.	38:47
Colonel Johnson	Yeah, whistleblower. Until the whistleblower blow his whistle, then the folk don't know what's going on. You'd be surprised. Take when the United State Marshall come here in the '63s, they had seen how they been sicking the dogs on Black folks. He was more afraid than we were. I picked him up at the airport. But when people got a ego— Now when he came here, I didn't even get a chance to shake his hand. But all these big folks was asked to meet him wouldn't meet him. They was afraid. But I went out to the airport and got him.	38:48
Paul Ortiz	You were working in the SCLC?	39:29
Colonel Johnson	That was Alabama Christian Movement.	39:34
Paul Ortiz	Okay. You were working there?	39:36
Colonel Johnson	Other words, just like I volunteer here, I volunteered to watch Sherwood house. I was one of the guards at that time. I was doing free security work for the cause. I had a couple of fellas go with me. And the Assistant United State Attorney General, I'm trying to think of his name, he come right over here to this church. I sit right on the front seat. A lot of those fellas were afraid to even go look. Wouldn't even come in the church when you're having a meeting. But they were the one that greeted him. They were the one sitting on the roster and asked some questions. But that's immaterial with me. I don't have no ego. What I do, I do it for the cause.	39:38
Paul Ortiz	One last question.	40:34
Colonel Johnson	The guy was named Burt Marshall.	40:35
Paul Ortiz	Burt Marshall.	40:37
Colonel Johnson	He was Assistant United State Attorney General. And another guy was with him. I don't remember his name. Robert Kennedy sent him here.	40:38
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	40:48
Colonel Johnson	To see what was really going on. They could see on the TV, but they wanted for his hand. They sent you guys here.	40:49
Paul Ortiz	And you picked him up?	40:57
Colonel Johnson	Yeah.	40:58
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Do you remember the Double V campaign?	40:59
Colonel Johnson	Double V?	41:02
Paul Ortiz	Okay. It was something— That's immaterial.	41:06
Colonel Johnson	No, that's one on me. Tell me about it.	41:15
Paul Ortiz	Well, that was a campaign that was during World War II. Stood for Victory Abroad, Victory at Home. And it was something that was talked about in Black newspapers. I was just curious if people remembered about it, if it had an impact?	41:15
Colonel Johnson	Maybe I forgot about it. I probably heard of it, because I always did try to be around where the voter registration was going on.	41:33
Paul Ortiz	That's okay. If you didn't hear about it then it probably wasn't that important. I think that's about all the questions that I had for you today. I know that you have a-	41:44
Colonel Johnson	Oh, I can give you about three more minutes.	42:05
Paul Ortiz	That's okay. Mr. Johnson, now you were a volunteer for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Can you tell me a little bit about what that meant? What kinds of activities that you did there?	42:07
Colonel Johnson	Well, other words, we watched the churches keep them being bombing. See, they sent forth rounds to bomb a church. That was one reason a lot of churches you couldn't go to, because they was afraid they'd get bombed. And a lot of people didn't realize the church belonged to the community.	42:21
Paul Ortiz	And what did you see as a volunteer? What were your day to day activities?	42:47
Colonel Johnson	Well, number one, you would see what was going on and report it when you have a meeting. If it was necessary, you would report it. Then you're going to church and let the leaders know what was going on. The city of Birmingham, the folk in the office, they'd send the fire department to the church. Five or six fire wagons would come and the chief inspector would come and say the church is too crowded. Disturb your meeting. You can't sit in the aisle. You can't stand in the aisle. You couldn't stand around the wall. Then they'd go off, and folk come right back in. But they would do that to intimidate you. Put fright in a lot of folks' hearts.	42:53
Paul Ortiz	So what would you do? Would you try to alert the church that they were coming?	43:46
Colonel Johnson	Well, when you see them pull up out there, you just go in and let Sherwood, or whoever was the moderator, know that they was out there. And then they would tell the folks to be calm. Sometimes they'd tell them, say, "All y'all what's in the aisle, just go right out the side door." When they got in, there wasn't nobody in the aisle. Yeah, you'd be surprised. The police is our biggest enemy in this town. Police. It's like you been in a meeting in here, and the meeting turn out, and it's 9:00 on Monday night. You go to get in your car and the police go to write you a ticket. You say, "What did I do?" They say, "Your lights too damn bright." Give you a ticket for your lights being too bright, and you had to pay it. I mean, you hadn't cranked up or nothing, hadn't put the lights on. But anything they were charged with, everybody was cooperating that was in office. You had a judge named Judge Oliver Hall. He was tough.	43:51
Paul Ortiz	How would you do publicity to get people to come to the meetings?	45:08
Colonel Johnson	Well, you put out leaflets.	45:12
Paul Ortiz	Who would put out the leaflets?	45:16
Colonel Johnson	Anybody that was around. Well, we'd done some of that. There was that long [indistinct 00:45:24] security folks that we had a lot of fellows. Most fellow was union folks from different unions, different organizations. They would come in. This room wouldn't hold the security folk we had. The head of the Washington security was named George Walker, and he was a mine union executive. And you had a fellow was vice president named Will Hall. They called him John L. Lewis because he's the president of a minors union. And all those fellas would come. When they go to their union meeting, they would ask a volunteer. That's where we got our security there.	45:19
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	46:26
Colonel Johnson	See, most people just ordinary folk member church was afraid. They watch their own church. But see, when your fella been in the union, been organized-	46:32

Paul Ortiz	Could you tell me—	0:02
Colonel Johnson	I'll see you next week.	0:03
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	0:03
Colonel Johnson	Because I got another sheet for you at home I haven't finished.	0:05
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Could you tell me once more though about, you mentioned George Walker was a member of the miner's union.	0:08
Colonel Johnson	Mm-hmm.	0:15
Paul Ortiz	And Will Hall, he was also a member of the miner's union?	0:16
Colonel Johnson	Yeah. He was a president of one union, and George Walker was president of another.	0:19
Paul Ortiz	And you said that they were primarily black union members who would [indistinct 00:00:29] security?	0:24
Colonel Johnson	Right. Right.	0:29
Paul Ortiz	Okay. And the church, because they had experience in organizing [indistinct 00:00:36]—	0:30
Colonel Johnson	Right.	0:36
Paul Ortiz	Okay. I know you have to—	0:36
Colonel Johnson	You had some women, black women help watch over the church. I'm going to give you the—you can cut that back on. On. You got it on?	0:40
Paul Ortiz	It's on.	0:51
Colonel Johnson	Okay. Because I want their names—whatever you're going to put in there, I sure want their names in it. You got one woman was named Lucinda Brown Robie. She was a principal of a black school, and she was black, and had plenty nerve. And you had another woman named Minnie Eaton. And she was an insurance writer. E-A-T-O-N. And you had another one was named Dester Brooks.	0:51
Paul Ortiz	Can you spell her first name?	1:25
Colonel Johnson	D-E-S-T-E-R. Dester Brooks. And them three women—Dester Brooks owned a florist. She owned her own business. She could afford to do it. But now, the other lady, that first one, was the principal of the school, and folks thought she was going to lose her job, but they didn't bother. They kind of hinted at it once or twice, but I don't know why. I guess it's God's work that they didn't try to get her job. But I've seen times that the security got so thin around there, until them women had to come out and help us watch.	1:27
Colonel Johnson	Got just that—see, every time it burned around there, the men's wives would tell them, "You're going to get killed. You better let it alone." And I can remember eight men quit, that I had out there. Come from the shop I worked at, in my union. The night that Will Hall and myself moved the bomb from [indistinct 00:02:48] Church. When Stoner put a bomb there. You ever heard of Stoner? He was, what you call a Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. He's the one they sent to prison for bombing Bethel Church. And myself, I was a witness, and one detective, white guy.	2:17
Colonel Johnson	That's the only reason he made any time. A lot of witnesses out there, that saw him walking around him. He didn't drive, but he was riding in the back of a Yellow Cab. So the yellow cab driver, and I don't know whether the company know anything about it, but the Yellow Cab driver was up with it. Because they'd help intimidate the neighborhood. They'd drive around all night, every night. They was burning gas, driving around Bethel Baptist Church. Now, that's the church they bombed, so—they bombed this church, because the boycott march was going to come out here.	3:14
Colonel Johnson	I guess that—	4:01
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	4:02
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:04:06]	4:02

Item Info

Title:

Colonel Johnson interview recording, 1994 June 22

Date:

June 22, 1994

Creator:

Johnson, Colonel Stone

Contributor:

Ortiz, Paul

Description:

Name: Colonel Stone Johnson; Date of birth: 1918-09-09; Place of birth: Lowndes Co., AL; Occupation(s): manufacturing; railroad laborer; Residence: Birmingham, AL
Informant ID: 750; Interviewed by: Paul Ortiz.

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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RL00170-CS-0331
e9b43aec-47ad-41bb-9346-36b43bf9b348
behindtheveil
6a2464fa-243e-4e9b-b6d0-18de6141ac06
ark:/87924/r43f4xw8p
6a2464fa-243e-4e9b-b6d0-18de6141ac06

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Colonel Johnson interview recording, 1994 June 22

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1. Colonel Johnson administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Colonel Johnson interview recording, 1994 June 22

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