RL00170-CS-1239_01.wav / Marjorie Pajeaud (primary interviewee) and Jessie Mouton interview recording, 1994 June 23 / Duke Digital Repository

Felix Armfield

Okay, now we're back on take two with—

0:03

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Charity was—

0:06

Felix Armfield

Ms. Mouton.

0:06

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Charity was a segregated hospital. One side for White, one side for Blacks. That's how you entered. You went on that side said Black, and this side said White.

0:10

Felix Armfield

Okay.

0:23

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And so when you would go, there were no Black nurses or Black doctors. Black doctors [indistinct 00:00:40]—

0:24

Felix Armfield

Even to treat the Black patients that went in.

0:39

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Even to treat the Black patients who went there. And that was when my mother was in there, there were still none. That was, she died in 52. And there were still nothing but White nurses and White doctors. That's right. When I had my son, they had just started letting, I guess a few nurses come there, but not to receive any training. They had not started giving them training.

0:41

Felix Armfield

So the Black nurses here [indistinct 00:01:18].

1:16

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Had to go Dillard and come to Flint-Goodridge, that's where they got their—

1:18

Felix Armfield

That's where they could get their training.

1:23

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's where they got—

1:24

Felix Armfield

Nowhere else in the city.

1:25

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Nowhere else. Because there was no other hospital here that took them. And that was our only hospital for Blacks.

1:26

Felix Armfield

Which was Flint-Goodridge.

1:35

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And it was Flint-Goodridge. And it was sold not too many years ago by Cook, who's the president of Dillard now. Mm-hmm. That was a very sad occasion for me because I always said, we get rid of everything we had. My son says it's because we don't see into the future.

1:36

Felix Armfield

Were your children born—[indistinct 00:01:58].

1:57

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

No, my children were born at Charity because I had bleeding when I'm pregnant. And my doctor, my Black doctor told me to go there because they had better equipments to take care of me. And that's what happened.

1:58

Felix Armfield

Well, what was important was your health at that point.

2:13

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's it. And after I had them though, I didn't go back there except to bring, and then I brought my children to the doctor, to—

2:17

Felix Armfield

To Flint-Goodridge.

2:23

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

My Black doctor.

2:23

Felix Armfield

For their regular treatment.

2:24

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's right. That's right.

2:25

Felix Armfield

I like that. That was smart.

2:27

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

But I brought my son because he had what they call a mild case of clubfoot and they sent me there. The doctor who treated my son was also a cripple. And he said to me to have my son's shoes made at his shoemaker. This old man has died since. But no, Charity did not take any Black nurses for training until in recent years.

2:29

Felix Armfield

Really?

3:04

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's right.

3:04

Felix Armfield

So Black nurses who came out of nursing school at Dillard—

3:07

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's who, a lot of them are at Charity now.

3:11

Felix Armfield

A lot of them are at Charity now.

3:12

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

A lot of them work there. One of the young ladies, friend of mine who was a head nurse over there. I don't know in what area, but she was a head nurse over there in that Charity.

3:15

Felix Armfield

Ms. Pajeaud?

3:27

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah. You ready for me?

3:30

Felix Armfield

Yeah. We want you to come back and join us and finish telling me about that incident of the nursing school.

3:30

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh yes. I can't pick up the lady's name, but I'll find it out for you.

3:40

Felix Armfield

Okay. Okay.

3:45

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And as I said, there was also a midwifery school there, but it never got off the ground, I don't think.

3:48

Felix Armfield

Think that was at—

3:55

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

At the—

3:56

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

At Flint-Goodridge. Uh-huh.

3:56

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Mm-hmm.

3:56

Felix Armfield

So at Flint-Goodridge, there was some concern that they began training people in midwifery.

4:01

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah.

4:06

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah.

4:07

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And this is what, because at one time I was sitting here a lot of White midwives because they used to be able to put their signs out.

4:07

Felix Armfield

Oh, okay. Isn't that interesting that Black people have always welcomed these people into our neighborhoods and into our homes and those kinds of things? But by the same token, a Black midwife, and correct me if I'm wrong, would not have had any White patients.

4:16

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

No, not unless she couldn't go to a White, unless she went to a White one who refused to take her. Let's put it like that. But I've heard that some of them do. Some Black midwives did take White.

4:33

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

My mother had a midwife for me.

4:50

Felix Armfield

Okay. So you—

4:53

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

We were born like that. But in our time—

4:54

Felix Armfield

You were born home and all your brother and sisters.

4:57

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes. Yes.

5:00

Felix Armfield

And a midwife was on hand?

5:00

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes.

5:01

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Midwife.

5:01

Felix Armfield

Okay.

5:01

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Her name was Miss Lucy. And she's on my birth certificate.

5:06

Felix Armfield

Miss Lucy. Really?

5:07

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

The lady's name and where she live.

5:09

Felix Armfield

Do you have a copy of that birth certificate so I can get a picture of it? And it says midwife?

5:11

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah. I'm sure it does.

5:17

Felix Armfield

Midwife Miss Lucy.

5:18

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Don't get up to go get it. We got to get through. My mother had—

5:20

Felix Armfield

You can get it later. We're going to get that later.

5:21

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

My mother had, she bored my ears when I was about five days old.

5:30

Felix Armfield

She did what now?

5:37

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Bored my ears.

5:37

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Pierced her ears.

5:37

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Pierced my ears.

5:37

Felix Armfield

Oh, she pierced your ears when you were about five days—

5:37

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Five days old or something.

5:40

Felix Armfield

Really? I didn't know they would do that that young.

5:41

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

That's what they would do. Uh-huh.

5:43

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

[indistinct 00:05:47].

5:43

Felix Armfield

And then that way you don't have any recollections of it.

5:46

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Uh-uh. The doctor did the babies. But my aunt who used to, my aunt bored all our ears. She used to just do that around and then—

5:48

Felix Armfield

Now what are you saying? They bored your ears?

6:00

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah. We say bored. And pierced is the same thing.

6:02

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Pierced, that's the same thing.

6:04

Felix Armfield

Okay, now spell—yeah.

6:05

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

B-O-R-E-D.

6:05

Felix Armfield

B-O-R-E-D. Okay. I just need the correct spelling because the person—

6:10

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

They would take something and just bore it.

6:12

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

It's a needle.

6:13

Felix Armfield

Okay.

6:13

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And put a piece of cork behind it and then you didn't feel it. And then stick that needle in it.

6:14

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

That's why they do the men and women who have their ears pierced now—

6:21

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Ears bored now—

6:23

Felix Armfield

Well, I don't know. I'm not one of those.

6:23

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

You don't have earrings, huh? (laughs)

6:23

Felix Armfield

No, no. I don't think my grandmother would be too pleased.

6:34

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

I don't blame her.

6:38

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I wouldn't be too pleased either.

6:38

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Like I said, that's your ear, darling. But that doesn't mean I have to say I like it.

6:39

Felix Armfield

Exactly.

6:43

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

My grandson says now about he wants it. "Grandma, what'd you think about my ear being bored?" I said, "I think that you need another, if you get your ear bored, you need to have your brains out, bored in the head."

6:44

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Brains bored out.

7:01

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah. I said, "You don't need any earring." That's the thing. He has another word for it, another slang word for it. I don't care what the thing is. I said, "I don't like the style. I don't like it." Well, he was trying to see if I would say it was all right, because his mother had already told him he couldn't bore his ear. And I said, "I have a solid gold earring of one that I broke the post on that my grandmother gave me as a wedding present." And I said, "I wouldn't even give you that. And I only have the one." And I can't get the other one fixed because the jeweler says—

7:01

Felix Armfield

So your convictions against that are real strong.

7:39

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Oh, very strong. And whoever wants can get it. I have no objections against what you do with yourself, but I don't really like the style.

7:41

Felix Armfield

You don't like to see men in earrings.

7:50

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

No, I don't.

7:50

Felix Armfield

Yeah. I have cousins and friends who wear them but my grandparents raised me and I don't think they'd approve.

7:54

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I'm sure they wouldn't. I don't like it either.

8:01

Felix Armfield

Well, for one thing, it never has appealed to me.

8:05

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

It never occurred to you. Uh-huh.

8:05

Felix Armfield

No.

8:05

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

To want to get it done.

8:05

Felix Armfield

I never even had to sit down and think about it. It wasn't anything I contemplated. But at any rate, what do you remember during that period, during the war? Did you find work as Black women? Did you leave out of the home then to find work? Or were you already working when the war broke out?

8:09

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I reckon I was married and having babies.

8:29

Felix Armfield

Okay. Did you find that you had to go, did your husband go participate in the war by chance?

8:31

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No.

8:36

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

My husband didn't. And we married during the war. I've been married since '42 and right after the war broke out.

8:38

Felix Armfield

Okay. So you got married in 1942.

8:43

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah.

8:43

Felix Armfield

And what year did you get married?

8:46

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

'42.

8:47

Felix Armfield

Oh, okay. You all got married around the same time as my grandparents got married. I think they got married in '44.

8:50

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah.

8:53

Felix Armfield

Yeah. 1944. But what do you recall about the war?

8:57

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

But I did not—

8:59

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Well, all we know that is going on and all of the activity was that I was working at the hospital when it first started.

9:01

Felix Armfield

Flint-Goodridge?

9:11

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah, Flint-Goodridge.

9:12

Felix Armfield

Okay.

9:12

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yes, I remember there was a man that came to work at the hospital. I think he was promoting insurance, I think, health insurance during that time and whatnot. And I used to go with him at night to the plants. I put on a nurse's uniform to sign up to people with the health program and whatnot.

9:16

Felix Armfield

Oh, so there was a public health program?

9:44

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I can't remember all because that's been so long ago. That's over 50 years ago.

9:46

Felix Armfield

Okay. Okay.

9:51

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

But I do remember that. But I think it was one of these health programs, health insurance.

9:53

Felix Armfield

Okay. Okay.

10:01

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Health insurance.

10:01

Felix Armfield

And you went into—

10:02

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

That we was promoting into the plants.

10:03

Felix Armfield

Into the plants. Those [indistinct 00:10:07].

10:05

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

You see, because a lot of Black men held two jobs, one job in the day. And in fact, they were a lot of the men who were school teachers and worked in these plants that night.

10:06

Felix Armfield

Yeah.

10:21

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah.

10:22

Felix Armfield

So they moonlighted in the factories at night.

10:23

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

After World War II, that's when the Black people really were able to buy their homes and whatnot.

10:25

Felix Armfield

Following World War II.

10:33

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

That's how they got started.

10:34

Felix Armfield

Was it because the soldiers were returning with money or—

10:36

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No, because they—

10:40

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

—worked in the service if you—

10:40

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Those who were home were, as you say, moonlighting, holding out two jobs. And in the plants, they paid very good money, much more than what they were making teaching school, I'm sure.

10:40

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes. A lot of them used to be right there at Consolidated [indistinct 00:11:00]. Where I was working, we were making army clothes for the soldiers.

10:56

Felix Armfield

Army clothes. Okay. Mm-hmm.

11:06

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

We made army clothes for the soldiers at that time.

11:09

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

So the war really helped the Black people.

11:10

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes. He had the contract.

11:14

Felix Armfield

So you think it really helped.

11:15

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh, it did.

11:16

Felix Armfield

Economically.

11:16

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

It did economically. That's what I'm talking about. You see. And they didn't have to fight in a way because they didn't want any Black men with guns.

11:17

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And it wasn't until they got real serious that they started drafting the younger boys into service. Because that's how my brother-in-law got [indistinct 00:11:37] at 18, finished high school. And that June and September, he was drafted.

11:26

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And as I remarked, I didn't hear of any Black people that I knew killed during World War II, but I heard of a lot of them killed during the Vietnam War.

11:44

Felix Armfield

Okay.

11:57

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Quite a bit.

11:59

Felix Armfield

Did you know of anyone who participated in the Korean War that followed World War II in 1950? The Korean Warfare?

12:00

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No, I didn't hear much about the Korean Warfare.

12:08

Felix Armfield

Okay.

12:11

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And that followed World War II?

12:11

Felix Armfield

Yes ma'am.

12:13

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes it did. Mm-hmm.

12:13

Felix Armfield

Yeah, because World War II was over by '45, the Korean War broke out in 1950. As a matter fact, that was when it was supposed to be the first integrated army.

12:14

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I had a baby in '45.

12:25

Felix Armfield

Okay.

12:27

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Mm-hmm.

12:30

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

She was saying Dr. Geisler was what we call the insurance doctor for a lot of the different companies, because he was the insurance doctor for a sewing factory where I worked.

12:30

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And if I—

12:45

Felix Armfield

Now what do you mean by an insurance doctor?

12:45

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

You see? Like—

12:49

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Compensation.

12:51

Felix Armfield

Oh, a compensation doctor.

12:53

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes. As big companies and something happened to you on the job, Dr. Geisler was the man they sent you to. And we used to call him the the horse doctor.

12:53

Felix Armfield

The horse doctor? (laughs)

13:05

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

As a matter of fact, there is a city, a little town not far in Jefferson named Geisler, and it's from his family. This is no joke. All those teachers, people used to refer to him—My brother-in-law worked on the—

13:05

Felix Armfield

(laughing) Ms. Mouton, why did you call him the horse doctor?

13:20

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Because he treated you for everything. And I never forgot the needle broke and hit my eye. And when I was sent to Geisler, once he looked at my eye, he says, "I'm going to send you Stebbens." Stebbens was another eye doctor in the Maison Blanche building, because that's where Geisler was. And—

13:22

Felix Armfield

What building was that?

13:43

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Maison Blanche building.

13:46

Felix Armfield

Spell that with me.

13:48

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

M-A-I-S-O-N, Blanche. Like Blanche. B-L-A-N-C-H-E. That means White House.

13:49

Felix Armfield

Okay. Okay. And it's M-A-I-S-O—

13:58

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Remember I told you, that every letter I wrote, I remember Dr. Geisler—

14:00

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's what I'm telling him now.

14:06

Felix Armfield

Yes ma'am.

14:07

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Geisler, any company, if you had any company here, and an employer was hurt on the river. My brother-in-law used to go to him. The people in the neighborhood, everybody say they send you to Dr. Geisler, see? Send you to the horse doctor. And that's the reason why they referred to him as the horse doctor.

14:09

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

But he would not treat my eyes, he says. My eyes were too delicate. So when I went down to Stebbens, Stebbens was a doctor who didn't treat Blacks. And here I am, sitting in the office. And as soon as the little receptionist came, she called me in because Geisler had already called downstairs to Stebbens to let him know that he was sending me down. And he said to me, "Oh, you must be a special case," he said, for Geisler to send me. And when he looked in my eyes, he said the same thing. He said, "You have very delicate eyes." He said, "And that's probably why—" he said. And I told him that I had been going to ear, nose and throat hospital as a child, but he treated me.

14:30

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Some more coffee? You're going to have the jitters.

15:16

Felix Armfield

I don't need anything in at this time.

15:22

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

But—

15:24

Felix Armfield

Let me ask you something about that sewing factory you said you worked at. What was it like working there? Was everybody working together? Did you sit next to White people?

15:27

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

No, most of his employees were, in fact, all of his employees were Black. And the office girls were White. And the few easier jobs like bundling the work up, they were White.

15:36

Felix Armfield

So what exactly type of labor were you doing at the factory?

15:52

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

When I first started there, I was what they call a trimmer. You cut all the loose threads off it.

15:56

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I'll put it in the microwave.

16:01

Felix Armfield

Okay.

16:02

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And then I asked for a sewing machine. My first job working for Bunk was buttoning uniform shirts for the soldiers, the shirts that they wore. And you had to button the two buttons here, and then you button all the buttons down here. That my first day on that job, my fingers were so sore and my legs were so tired. And I went home and I cried. And my father told me then, "Don't go back tomorrow." But I went back and then they put me in the trim. See this mark here? The girl who trimmed next to me, she flew her arm and she still had her little trimmers in her hand and it stuck in my arm. She didn't do it purposely because we were laughing and talking with each other while we doing. But the little scissors went right in my own. But after trimming, I got on the sewing machine and I was what they call a belt setter. I set waistbands on pants.

16:04

Felix Armfield

Oh, okay, okay.

17:06

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And I left that job because I did it because I really needed a job at the time. My mother was very ill, in and out of the hospital for many years. And when she was almost down to her last time, then I gave that job.

17:06

Felix Armfield

Mm-hmm. Okay.

17:23

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Because it was sitting up in the hospital with my mother and working like that. And I wasn't making it with the boss because I didn't want to work overtime. And he insisted that I work overtime. And I couldn't do it because I was sitting up at night and I was worn out to leave the hospital six o'clock in the morning when my other sister would come and go to work for eight o'clock. I just could not keep it up. And I just quit. I didn't go back. And this is when I said that after that, and I had my children, I decided to go back to school. I have never regretted it.

17:26

Felix Armfield

Okay. I understand. Well, that's one of the things you never regret. Ms. Pajeaud, what do you recall following that war period? What was the tone and the atmosphere?

18:04

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

World War II, you mean?

18:26

Felix Armfield

Exactly. What kinds of things did you all do for social and entertainment as young adults, I think you are by now, right?

18:28

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Mm-hmm.

18:36

Felix Armfield

By the time the war's over, you're both young adult people. Right? So what kinds of things were you doing here in the city of New Orleans?

18:38

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh, it was good.

18:44

Felix Armfield

Entertainment?

18:44

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

You still did the same things you did before the war.

18:44

Felix Armfield

Where did you go? Where did you hang out?

18:44

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

During Carnival time, we went to all the Carnival balls.

18:44

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Carnival balls.

18:54

Felix Armfield

Carnival balls. Tell me about the Carnival balls. I don't know anything about this Carnival. I'm not from New Orleans so I don't know about the Carnival ball.

19:04

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Well, they have the various clubs. The men have the clubs. They have the [indistinct 00:19:11] Illinois, the original Illinois, those clubs where they had the debutantes presented.

19:04

Felix Armfield

Okay. Now, did you go to the debutantes?

19:17

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh, yes. We went to all of that. We went to both, and it was free. It was invitation. As I said, New Orleans around that time, it's a great big free circus, in a sense. And all of the clubs gave affairs during the Carnival time. And you were invited and you went [indistinct 00:19:42].

19:20

Felix Armfield

Now when did the Carnival take place?

19:42

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Before Mardi Gras day.

19:45

Felix Armfield

Before Mardi Gras day.

19:47

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Day. Yes. Mm-hmm. During the Carnival season. See, we call it Carnival, but it's the season of Carnival, which starts right after Christmas. Now, some people say it starts before Christmas. The White people, they started their balls in December, 12 days before Christmas. See, they started their balls—

19:49

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Kings Day.

20:15

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Kings Day, yeah, that was right after Christmas.

20:15

Felix Armfield

But Black people started theirs after.

20:18

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Just before the Mardi Gras day. Just before Mardi Gras day. Right after Christmas, you'd be going to Carnival balls. And you didn't go to the auditorium. They had their own little places you were not permitted to go in these other places where the White people had their balls.

20:20

Felix Armfield

So you held your balls separately.

20:38

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Separately in other places.

20:40

Felix Armfield

What was the attire for this Carnival ball?

20:43

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Formal.

20:45

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Long formal dresses.

20:46

Felix Armfield

Very formal.

20:46

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes.

20:46

Felix Armfield

Everyone was dapper, huh?

20:47

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Formal, the man wore the black tuxedo and a black tie, and the ladies wore the long dresses.

20:51

Felix Armfield

It was strictly a black tie affair, huh?

20:55

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah.

20:57

Felix Armfield

Well, what was this Carnival? What was it representative of? I don't know. This is the first—

21:00

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

It's supposed to be the social aspect of Black people and what we would consider the elite.

21:05

Felix Armfield

Okay. Okay.

21:08

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I guess you can say too, that we were copying off the White people in a sense, because they had their Carnival balls. The king of Carnival, the Rex. I know you've heard about that—

21:09

Felix Armfield

—Black folks having their balls—

21:25

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No, no, I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Sure.

21:25

Felix Armfield

Basically you all—

21:25

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I think it originated in France, I think.

21:26

Felix Armfield

Okay. Okay. Well, this area had been heavily influenced by the French.

21:34

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah. Because they—

21:38

Felix Armfield

You were influenced by them.

21:38

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

French and Spanish.

21:43

Felix Armfield

And it had nothing to do both with what color you were. You were here in this area.

21:44

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

My grandmother wrote and spoke French. And when they first came here, they had difficulty understanding the people who call themselves Creoles here from the Seventh Ward, because their language was not pure French.

21:49

Felix Armfield

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Creole had to be a mixture of—

22:04

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

It was a mixture of—

22:08

Felix Armfield

French and African.

22:09

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

French and Spanish and everything else.

22:10

Felix Armfield

Yeah.

22:12

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Just like said about some people's gumbo. Everything is in it.

22:12

Felix Armfield

Yeah. Everything's in there.

22:16

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And their different about that, they have different versions, as I'm sure you have heard and you have read. Some historians say that Creole means a mixture of French and Spanish.

22:18

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Spanish.

22:29

Felix Armfield

Creole, from what I understand, has been a mixture of everything.

22:33

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Of everything.

22:38

Felix Armfield

And it would be unfair of any historian to say that it is purely a mixture of French and Spanish.

22:40

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's what I looked to—

22:46

Felix Armfield

Because there are Black Creoles and there are White Creoles. And we know that those Black Creoles have to be something else other than French and Spanish.

22:48

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Right. Right.

22:56

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Mm-hmm.

22:56

Felix Armfield

So clearly. And there's some Creoles that have a mixture of Native American Indians.

22:57

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Right.

23:04

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes. My mother-in-law.

23:05

Felix Armfield

So the Creole is just—but I think it's more or less what you said earlier on.

23:05

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

It's a culture.

23:09

Felix Armfield

It's a culture.

23:09

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

It's a culture.

23:10

Felix Armfield

It's a culture. Because both of you have just expressed to me throughout the course of this interview that you do come from Creole backgrounds, but you aren't confessing Creoles now because you're not in the culture.

23:12

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No. Right.

23:23

Felix Armfield

Exactly. So I think Creole, and I think that's the one thing that has been good for me in coming to New Orleans. I finally can say, now I know what this Creole is. It's a culture. It's not a person. I can't just look out at some person and assume that they are Creole by looking at them.

23:25

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Because they're light skinned, as I say, with "good hair," as they said.

23:43

Felix Armfield

Yeah. Yeah.

23:46

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No.

23:47

Felix Armfield

Yeah.

23:47

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Uh-uh. It's more than that.

23:47

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And they used to have their Carnival balls to themselves at one times, the lighter skins.

23:48

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh. I got to tell you about that.

23:55

Felix Armfield

Please. I want to—(all laugh)

23:56

Felix Armfield

Ms. Pajeaud, you want to start talking about that? How the Creole would have their balls separate from Black people's ball?

24:02

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yes. The Autocrat Club is on St. Bernard—

24:10

Felix Armfield

Now, spell that for me.

24:13

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

A-U-T-O-C-R-A-T.

24:13

Felix Armfield

C-R-A-T. And it's called the Autocrat Club.

24:17

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Mm-hmm.

24:22

Felix Armfield

Okay.

24:22

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

On St. Bernard, but it's further down. St. Bernard.

24:24

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

It's near to Claiborne Avenue by the I-10.

24:27

Felix Armfield

Okay. I know where you're talking about.

24:30

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And there is a saying, and I understand it as a true saying, that you could not be darker than a paper bag.

24:33

Felix Armfield

So they had to do the paper bag test.

24:40

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah.

24:43

Felix Armfield

To get in.

24:43

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

You heard about that, huh?

24:43

Felix Armfield

I've heard about the paper bag test. I don't know about it in this particular incident. But I want you to tell me about this incident (all laugh).

24:44

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Well, you see, as children, we were not yet down in that area. We weren't in that area. We were in what they call the Treme. And it was a different thing. You see? Marjorie is a Treme light-skin.

24:51

Felix Armfield

And people wanted to confuse you with Seventh Ward because she's so light skinned. She has to be from Seventh Ward.

25:07

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah. Yeah. She has to be from the Seventh Ward.

25:15

Felix Armfield

Uh-huh. And you took great pride in saying, "No, I'm from the Sixth Ward."

25:16

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

That's right. (laughs)

25:19

Felix Armfield

I've seen pictures of your father. What did your mother look like?

25:24

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

She was light.

25:27

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

She was light skinned also.

25:29

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Mm-hmm.

25:29

Felix Armfield

Okay.

25:29

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

My mother was light skinned.

25:29

Felix Armfield

So both of your parents were from the Creole background?

25:31

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah. Uh-huh. In color.

25:34

Felix Armfield

Okay. In color.

25:36

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Mine too. But my mother was [indistinct 00:25:40]. My mother not, she may have been a little lighter than I, have a freckled face, but what in many times they referred to as a brick head, which meant that—

25:37

Felix Armfield

Brick head?

25:50

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah. That was a lighter person with not curly hair.

25:52

Felix Armfield

Oh.

26:03

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's when they called a brick head.

26:03

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Good hair.

26:03

Felix Armfield

Without the straight hair. The hair was a little kinky.

26:03

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah.

26:04

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah. That's it.

26:04

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

They used to refer to it as good hair. "Oh, she had good hair" or "She had bad hair."

26:04

Felix Armfield

Yeah. Yeah. Simply because their hair was straight. Yeah.

26:04

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah.

26:04

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah. Yeah.

26:11

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

But you see, my father was on the light side with hair like Chinaman.

26:12

Felix Armfield

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I want to finish hearing about this Autocrat Club.

26:18

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Well, they were very, very prejudiced.

26:23

Felix Armfield

Really?

26:27

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes.

26:27

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Everybody who, all the members were fair skinned people. Fair skinned people. All of the members. Of course it is not the same now. It really has gone down.

26:33

Felix Armfield

Okay. Okay. I would hope.

26:43

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I dare say—

26:45

Felix Armfield

The new generation is learning to move away from that kind of stuff.

26:45

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Well, you know what I say all the time? Of course as you know, I have a sense of humor. Always humor in everything.

26:49

Felix Armfield

I love it.

26:55

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

[indistinct 00:26:59] class lady, the first president of the Autocrat Club, after many years.

26:58

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

That was brown skinned.

27:05

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That was brown skinned.

27:06

Felix Armfield

Oh well, he couldn't have been in the Autocrat Club.

27:09

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

He couldn't have.

27:11

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh no.

27:11

Felix Armfield

[indistinct 00:27:12] twenties and thirties like you all were talking about.

27:12

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

[indistinct 00:27:17] darker than he is now, in there now.

27:16

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Now.

27:16

Felix Armfield

So it doesn't imply that one has to be of light complexion.

27:20

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Not anymore.

27:23

Felix Armfield

Or Creole.

27:24

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Not anymore.

27:24

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Not anymore. We're glad to get anybody to become a member now. [indistinct 00:27:30]. If you wanted to join, you could join Autocrat Club.

27:26

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Now.

27:32

Felix Armfield

I don't think I want to be a part of the Autocrat Club.

27:33

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I'm just saying.

27:33

Felix Armfield

No, no, no. If they didn't take my two good friends based on the fact that they were good people, I don't want to be a part of it.

27:38

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Let me see if I can find [indistinct 00:27:47].

27:43

Felix Armfield

So what kinds of things, was it a social club or?

27:48

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah, it was a social club.

27:50

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

It was a social and pleasure club, as they call it. He and his brothers were members of it. And you could see, he's light. This fella right here. Charles.

27:56

Felix Armfield

That's his brother?

28:02

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

No, no.

28:02

Felix Armfield

Oh, okay.

28:02

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Charles and his brother.

28:04

Felix Armfield

Okay.

28:06

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Their father was a member of Autocrats when he was a young man. Lucille, the sister told me that, said then that's how I know that when he became the president, that he was the first real dark one. Lucille makes you laugh about that, Charles's sister. I said that they wanted to have a fit, some of the members wanted to have a fit over it. But all the older ones, old enough to be our parents in that age group. There were no dark ones at all. And neither were the ladies.

28:06

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Uh-uh. And they wives were light skinned too. But—

28:43

Felix Armfield

So you had to marry within this thing too.

28:48

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah, that's how they used to be. That's how they was—

28:49

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

That's how they did, the Seventh Warders. They remarried.

28:53

Felix Armfield

Well, how is it that you had obviously such a greater sense of understanding and pride in who you were and your Blackness, Ms. Pajeaud, and didn't get caught up into all that?

28:55

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No, I didn't come up like that. My parents never, even though my father was very, very fair. In other words, you would take him for a White man anytime. In fact, they did think that he was White most of the time. That's how fair he was. And he looked like a White man even. But they never talked that around me in the home. Black and all like that.

29:08

Felix Armfield

Clearly they understood that you were going to have to survive in this world—

29:33

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And they shouldn't.

29:34

Felix Armfield

As a Black woman.

29:34

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And they never showed it.

29:36

Felix Armfield

They didn't want to set you up.

29:39

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And they never showed it. And [indistinct 00:29:41], I never liked light men. (Armfield and Pajeaud laugh)

29:41

Felix Armfield

You are—

29:48

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Tell you about Winchester. (all laugh)

29:48

Felix Armfield

Tell me about Mr. Winchester.

29:54

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

I'll tell you about Winchester.

29:54

Felix Armfield

I want to hear.

29:54

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

A dark man.

29:54

Felix Armfield

I want to hear about Mr. Winchester. That's important.

29:57

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

He was a dark man. That was all.

29:59

Felix Armfield

He was a dark man.

29:59

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

He was a dark man. He was a dark man.

29:59

Felix Armfield

Yeah.

29:59

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And as you see, my husband Pajeaud, he was brown skinned man.

30:06

Felix Armfield

Yeah. I don't think either one of your husbands were light men.

30:09

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

They weren't.

30:17

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No, they weren't.

30:17

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

They weren't.

30:17

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

They weren't. They weren't.

30:17

Felix Armfield

Okay. So you didn't have this thing about—

30:17

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No, I never came up with that prejudice like that. Uh-uh. And you see the man my daughter married.

30:20

Felix Armfield

Yeah. Very handsome family.

30:28

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah.

30:30

Felix Armfield

Yeah.

30:30

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

So we never had any qualms about that. But the other people did.

30:30

Felix Armfield

Yeah.

30:35

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Uh-huh.

30:38

Felix Armfield

I was just about to say, how—

30:38

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Strange as it was, strange as it was, I had a friend, because she's dead, she was very, very, very dark.

30:39

Felix Armfield

Mm-hmm.

30:47

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

But when Daphne started keeping company with Keith, she was outdone. She told me, she said, "How can you allow that? How can you—" Now, dark as she was. And she said, "How can you allow that?" I said, "Now, what are you talking about, Muriel?" "How can you allow your daughter to go with a man like that?" I said, "What you mean a man like that?" She said, "You know what I mean. This dark skinned man with your daughter." I said, "But what that has to do with it?" "Oh, but I just—" Oh, she was—

30:48

Felix Armfield

What does it have to do with the kindness in his heart and how he felt about her?

31:24

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

What did it have do with the manhood?

31:28

Felix Armfield

Exactly.

31:28

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

But you know what really amused me? When these light skinned girls, some of them had light eyes and light hair, started marrying these dark boys. I said the grandmas must be rolling in their graves! (all laugh)

31:31

Felix Armfield

Ms. Pajeaud! (laughing)

31:43

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I said, "Oh my goodness." I know the grandmas and the mamas are turning over in their grave.

31:53

Felix Armfield

I'm just wondering what kinds of things did you encounter as a young girl growing up?

32:01

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh, I encountered quite a bit.

32:05

Felix Armfield

Here in New Orleans.

32:07

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yes.

32:08

Felix Armfield

You know, good, bad, or just indifferent? What did you—

32:08

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

When I walked down the street with a dark man, White people would [indistinct 00:32:16].

32:11

Felix Armfield

Stop and look. (laughs) They wanted to know, were you or some little White girl that this Black boy was picking up?

32:16

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

White girl with this Black boy. Yeah.

32:27

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

They do it now. Marjorie and I went to a teacher's convention, that's about four years ago at one of the hotels here. And the sections were different, our different—So I went to one session, Marjorie went to another session, and then we would compare what was said so we wouldn't—Make as many of the sessions as we possibly could. And then she decided to go to one about the income tax. And I went to one about medicines. So while she was, my session ended first. So I had to come from around the room where I was at.

32:28

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

[indistinct 00:33:09], Jessie?

33:09

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Huh?

33:09

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

[indistinct 00:33:13].

33:09

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

No thank you. I haven't eaten yet. So when I came back, she was still talking to this lady. At that time, Duke was running for mayor because we got up—

33:12

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

This is David Duke, isn't it?

33:23

Felix Armfield

Of course. The nation [indistinct 00:33:26].

33:23

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

He was one of the speakers at this thing. And I told her, I said, "I'm going to listen to Edwards, but when Duke comes up, I'm getting up and walk out." So when I come out of the session, she's with this White woman telling her to vote for Duke, huh? (Armfield laughs) Now, when I came up, the woman ended her conversation and gave her a card because she didn't want—I'm Black.

33:26

Felix Armfield

She thought Ms. Pajeaud— (laughs).

33:53

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

She didn't want me to hear what she was telling Marjorie, thinking Marjorie was White. She hurried up and gave Marjorie their card. So when we got around the bed, Marjorie said, "I'm so glad you came up at that time." She said, "Because let me tell you what she was telling me." So Marjorie went on to telling me. I said—

33:57

Felix Armfield

You told what she said? (laughing)

34:16

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yes. Yes. Yes.

34:18

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Told me what the White woman said. I said, "Yeah, you see? I'm just like—"

34:19

Felix Armfield

She was having bad, awful things to say. At least things that weren't nice, I assume.

34:24

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No, you see, when she was—she was trying to encourage me to vote for Duke.

34:28

Felix Armfield

No she was not! (laughing)

34:34

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's what I'm telling you!

34:37

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

She didn't know that I was not White. You see? She thought that I was White. And she was encouraging me.

34:37

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

"And he's going to do things for you. He's going to get things done for you." She told us.

34:41

Felix Armfield

She really did?

34:46

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

She did not know Marjorie was—

34:48

Felix Armfield

You were just standing there, listening to her.

34:50

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Standing there listening.

34:52

Felix Armfield

Saying all these—(laughs)

34:52

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And I was the savior when I came up. (Armfield laughs)

34:53

Felix Armfield

Did she still, did she realize that you are Black?

34:58

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

I guess she did after—

34:59

Felix Armfield

Or just somebody who was being friendly with this Black woman?

35:01

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah. Because you see, nowadays you can tell.

35:08

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

You can be with the Black person—

35:11

Felix Armfield

Yeah. But when Ms. Mouton walked up, she stopped her conversation.

35:11

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Stopped her conversation. She gave Marjorie the card and say, "Here, you can get in touch with me at this."

35:16

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah. She gave me—

35:19

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

She gave her the card. And that ended that conversation. Whereas she would've continued talking had I not come up at the time.

35:21

Felix Armfield

Had you not walked up. Oh.

35:36

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

You see? But I came up.

35:36

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

See how these hypocrites, they are.

35:36

Felix Armfield

Yeah.

35:36

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

And they don't mean you any good at all.

35:36

Felix Armfield

None whatsoever.

35:36

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And my father's expression was that they don't know their own kind. And this is proof.

35:38

Felix Armfield

They don't. They really don't.

35:40

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh no, they don't. They don't know Black people.

35:44

Felix Armfield

But you know what? There is no way that I could be, either—we could be fooled that Ms. Pajeaud, anything else other than a Black woman. We know each other when we see each other.

35:46

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

I tell her, I said, "We going to go ahead and you tell them I'm the maid."

35:56

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

[indistinct 00:36:04].

35:58

Felix Armfield

But see now, the interesting thing is that we may have to look twice sometimes, but you can just—

36:06

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

We know them.

36:11

Felix Armfield

We know each other. We know each other.

36:12

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

If they have blonde hair and blue eyes.

36:12

Felix Armfield

I don't care what color, we know each other.

36:12

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Marjorie, didn't you see a lot of light skinned women there?

36:12

Felix Armfield

Yeah. But there was no question that—

36:20

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And those are women who have taught us and things like that. Have always worked in the public schools with Black children.

36:21

Felix Armfield

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. But you were telling me before we started telling me about the David Duke incident, about your experiences of growing up here as such a light skinned girl.

36:30

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah. Well, it wasn't too bad in New Orleans.

36:47

Felix Armfield

Okay.

36:49

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Because they had a lot of light skinned people up in New Orleans, you see?

36:50

Felix Armfield

Okay. Okay.

36:53

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Because they had the Creoles down there in Seventh Ward.

36:55

Felix Armfield

But see, the thing was is that you never knew whether the light skinned Blacks were going to be in the company of Black people or what they were going to do. You sound like you was one of these persons who clearly enjoyed being with them folk from trimming.

36:58

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh, yeah. I did. I did. I never wanted to be anything but what I was. I never had any aspiration or anything like that. In fact, I never passed for White.

37:14

Felix Armfield

Okay.

37:25

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

[indistinct 00:37:25].

37:25

Felix Armfield

Yeah. Mm-hmm. There were some people who were passing?

37:25

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

They were friends that I know when the Senger was first built, they wanted to go in the Senger.

37:29

Felix Armfield

Now what's the—

37:33

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That was a theater for Whites only.

37:33

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

—a very pretty theater.

37:33

Felix Armfield

And what was it called? Can you spell it?

37:39

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

S-E-N-G-E-R.

37:39

Felix Armfield

S-E-N-G-E-R. Oh, the Senger Theater.

37:39

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yes. The Senger Theater.

37:45

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

It's right on the corner of Canal and Rampart.

37:47

Felix Armfield

Okay. And they wanted to get in to see the Senger?

37:49

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Just to see.

37:52

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

They would go—

37:52

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Just to see. And they went.

37:53

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

My father used to—

37:54

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

A lot of people, all the light skin—

37:54

Felix Armfield

And they were Black people, but they passed, to get in.

37:57

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah, sure.

37:58

Felix Armfield

They'd let us in—that is so hilarious to me.

37:58

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah they did, that was common here.

38:03

Felix Armfield

So you could fool people with that.

38:05

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Sure. They didn't know, you could go anywhere you wanted.

38:07

Felix Armfield

You never tried it, just as a joke or gimmick?

38:07

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No, I never did.

38:10

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

A lot of people didn't.

38:10

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I was too afraid, you see? I was always kind of—

38:12

Felix Armfield

Okay. Timid.

38:14

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

She was afraid.

38:14

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I didn't want to be embarrassed.

38:17

Felix Armfield

Yeah. Yeah.

38:18

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I didn't want to be embarrassed.

38:19

Felix Armfield

Because you clearly knew who you were. (laughs)

38:20

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

I knew. I knew who I wasn't. I thought everybody else knew who I was.

38:21

Felix Armfield

Knew who you were.

38:22

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's why my father said they didn't know their own kind. Because he would do things just to, like he said, try them. He sat at a drugstore, little drugstore lunch counter. And our neighbor came in who was Black and said, "Hello, Mr. Norman," and spoke to him. And he asked her if she wanted a cup of coffee because that's what he was drinking. He had just come from the clinic. And before she could answer him, the waitress told him, "We don't serve Colored people here at this drug store." And he said, "How the hell you don't know if I'm Colored or White?" And he was about cussing, Ms. Arlene told him, said, "Oh, that's all right, Mr. Norman." And he got up and he left the drugstore and he didn't pay the lady and he left the coffee on the counter.

38:26

Felix Armfield

Really?

39:26

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's right.

39:26

Felix Armfield

Really?

39:27

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And when he was ill, getting back to Charity Hospital with the Black and the White side, he was sick, really feeling bad. And my sister and I took him and we were each side of his arm. And when you walk up to the desk where the Blacks are supposed to go, it's this nurse sitting at the desk. And she said, you know your name. He gave her his name. Said, "Are you White or Colored?" He said, "These are my daughters." She said, "I said, are you White or Color?" He said, "God damn." He said, "I said, these are my daughters." At the time, a nurse's aide came up from the neighborhood, she said—

39:28

Felix Armfield

Oh, I wish I could have known (laughs)—

40:12

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And we didn't say anything because we knew how Papa was.

40:13

Felix Armfield

Yeah.

40:16

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

You see?

40:16

Felix Armfield

So the lady came up, Emanuella came up and she says, "Oh, what's the matter, Mr. Norman? You're not feeling too good?" And I told her, "Yeah," I said, "That's why we brought him back." Now that went on down. She said to the, "Well, I'll take care of him." Said, "This nurse was very mad at this desk because Papa wouldn't say to her whether he was Black or White." So when we got upstairs, he was the person who, none of them gray, because you see, I'm not half as gray but she's been gray since she was young. But even so, I'm old enough to have more gray hair. Both sides of my family did not gray early.

40:19

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Okay.

40:57

Felix Armfield

So Papa went upstairs. Here's this doctor. He said, "You must be Spanish." And my sister, who's the oldest one said, "Oh my goodness. Don't start that. He's going to get a little Spanish doctor to say." And he said to Papa, "Can you speak Spanish?" Papa said, "No, because I ain't Spanish. You see?" (laughs)

40:57

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh, I went to Cancun one time with another lady, a friend of mine. And I'll never forget. We were in line at the airport about to get the plane. And it seemed as if the airport man was letting all the Spanish people come in front of the line.

41:18

Felix Armfield

Now, when was this?

41:41

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh, that's been about eight or nine years ago. Something like that. And so I was with this lady, she's very fair, whatnot. But he came and got me and spoke in Spanish. (laughs) Said you can go up there. I said, "Uh-uh."

41:44

Felix Armfield

I ain't the one. Uh-uh.

42:00

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No. He kept saying something in Spanish again. I said, "No, no speak Spanish."

42:01

Felix Armfield

"No speak Spanish." (all laugh) Oh my goodness. What do you all remember about your teaching experiences? Which is one of the last things we want to talk about before we run out of tape here. About your teaching experiences here in New Orleans. Now, did both of you teach before integration?

42:17

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Oh yes.

42:39

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yes.

42:39

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

That's what I told you. Back when integration came about, I had just transferred and I was the newest teacher in the building and I had—

42:41

Felix Armfield

What do you recall prior to integration? What was [indistinct 00:42:52]—

42:48

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

I taught right by one of what they call city projects. So I had no problems and no White children there. But the school that I transferred to had several White children there. I had three during the years there. But it seemed like except for one family, they get about second grade and they took them all out. They were just decreasing. When I first went to McDonald 42, there must have been about over a hundred children.

42:52

Felix Armfield

Really?

43:24

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

White.

43:25

Felix Armfield

Okay. Okay.

43:25

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And I wasn't there that long before they were on me about three or four. And then after that, it became all Black. And that happened to most of the schools. We have a Catholic school right at the corner of St. Bernard and Gentilly. And that used to be an all White Catholic school. And now there's not one White child in that school.

43:31

Felix Armfield

Really?

43:54

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

And the nuns left. All of the nuns who were teachers there.

43:55

Felix Armfield

Once integration came?

44:01

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Once integration came, they started leaving. Uh-huh.

44:02

Felix Armfield

The nuns left.

44:06

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

So now there are no nuns that I can understand.

44:09

Felix Armfield

Make you question folks' religion.

44:11

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

That's [indistinct 00:44:14].

44:13

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

We question it all the time. The two of us.

44:13

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

[indistinct 00:44:17] and the nuns too.

44:18

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah.

44:19

Felix Armfield

Makes you question folks and their religion.

44:19

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes.

44:22

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

[indistinct 00:44:24] protected about everything.

44:22

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

I am too. Because you see, we went to a church where we had White nuns who taught us catechism as children. And they were prejudiced. Very, very prejudiced.

44:24

Felix Armfield

Mm-hmm.

44:37

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

This is something—

44:39

Felix Armfield

[indistinct 00:44:40] your little Black children.

44:40

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes.

44:40

Felix Armfield

[indistinct 00:44:42].

44:40

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yes. Uh-huh.

44:41

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh yeah.

44:42

Felix Armfield

Yeah.

44:42

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

But unless you have somebody at home telling you the right this is supposed to be, then you confused about it.

44:46

Felix Armfield

What do you recall?

44:54

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Well, before integration, it was very nice far as the children and the parents. But I thought that administration was very hard on the Black teachers.

44:57

Felix Armfield

This was during segregation?

45:11

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yeah.

45:13

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Yeah.

45:13

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

[indistinct 00:45:14].

45:13

Felix Armfield

Okay. Now administration [indistinct 00:45:16] from White administrative.

45:14

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

The superintendent. Yeah. [indistinct 00:45:20]. And we didn't have equal pay.

45:17

Felix Armfield

Oh, really?

45:22

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

No. We had to fight for that [indistinct 00:45:26]. It was a mitigation. Yeah, because she was one of the persons started that year.

45:23

Felix Armfield

[indistinct 00:45:28] equal pay.

45:25

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Yes, she did. Uh-huh.

45:27

Felix Armfield

Now you were teaching here in the New Orleans public—

45:34

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

In New Orleans public schools. [indistinct 00:45:38].

45:36

Felix Armfield

And what grades did you teach?

45:38

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Second grade and kindergarten.

45:39

Felix Armfield

Okay. Second grade and kindergarten.

45:40

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

But the teachers, I mean the students and the parents were very, very cooperative and very, very nice. But as the time went on, it became very difficult.

45:45

Felix Armfield

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

45:57

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Parents were different, than the children were different. It's a whole new ballgame now.

45:59

Felix Armfield

Oh yeah.

46:05

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh yeah.

46:05

Felix Armfield

Makes you glad you're out of that system.

46:05

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh yeah.

46:07

Jessie Lawrence Mouton

Oh yeah.

46:07

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh yeah. Yeah. We saw both sides of it too. [indistinct 00:46:11].

46:11

Felix Armfield

But I think it's interesting that you pointed out here that although you were in segregated school facilities, your administration in fact was handed down by White administrators.

46:11

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes, it was. It was. It was.

46:25

Felix Armfield

Were you accustomed to getting things like secondhand books and materials and things like that?

46:27

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Oh yeah. Yeah. We were accustomed to that.

46:37

Felix Armfield

Really?

46:37

Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud

Uh-huh. And we had to work twice as hard as a—

46:37

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John Hope Franklin Research Center