Erma Russell interview recording, 1995 August 10

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Erma Hayes Russell	Have you asked a question? Let me answer.	0:00
Doris Dixon	Could you please state your full name and date of birth?	0:07
Erma Hayes Russell	My name is Erma Avenue Hayes Russell. My birthdate is November 6th, 1919 and I'm 75 years of age. I was born in Holmes County in Lexington, Mississippi and went to the Holmes County public school. From there, to Jackson Public School in Jackson, Mississippi. From there, to Saints High School and College. Now, at the time I finished school at Saints, you only had to have one year of college experience to teach then. They started off with one year. That was all you had to have. And I got that one year and that is as far as I went to school during that time. But later on in life I went back and studied and got a certificate to teach adults.	0:13
Erma Hayes Russell	Also, I worked in Headstart. I did my teaching experience at Saints when I was there, while I was there before I left there, and then all this other came afterwards. Why don't you keep that so you can—my parents is Willie Hayes and Elizabeth McGee Hayes. They lived a long progressive life and a healthy life. Wasn't either one down sick when they died, both died of a heart attack. They both lived to get 81 and 89 years old. From there they taught us and brought us up in school and church, and taught us how to sing, pray and work also. They really taught us how to work. So I'm proud of my parents. Okay?	2:02
Doris Dixon	Were you raised in Lexington?	3:23
Erma Hayes Russell	I was raised in the Howard community at Route Two, Box 30, Lexington, Mississippi.	3:32
Doris Dixon	Would you please share some of your earliest memories growing up in that community?	3:44
Erma Hayes Russell	The community that I grew up in was like a family. Everybody problem was everybody else's problem. Everybody shared the same interest. When a person was sick, it was just like a sister or a brother in the family was sick. Everybody shared interest with that person. If there was sickness or death, everybody was interested. And if a person was hungry or there was some disadvantages in the family, everybody shared their disadvantage and nobody thought about charging anybody anything. They just shared because each person was interested in one another.	3:50
Erma Hayes Russell	And what else can I say about a family? When your burden was my burden and whatever I can do for you, I'll do it. That's the kind of family. We grew up in a community, we grew up in with the families that was in the community and some of the communities I grew up in was pretty large communities. But everybody shared the same interests and we went to the same churches. We went to the Baptist Church, which we were members of at that time, and the Methodist churches, and the Saints. Whatever church had service that Sunday, we went to that church. No matter which church it was, we went to the next church that had service on that Sunday. Regardless to what church it was. That's how we grew up.	4:42
Doris Dixon	What was the most important thing to the people in the Howard community?	5:48
Erma Hayes Russell	Like what? Most important? What do you mean?	5:55
Doris Dixon	What did they cherish? What did they value?	6:01
Erma Hayes Russell	I'm not sure I can say. Most people worked. They were farming at that time. Everybody was farming except those that did construction or carpentry work, so on like that. So the community people even shared that. When one person got through chopping or picking cotton before the other family did, then this family will go over and help that one get through. So their interest, their chief interest was helping one another. And that's one thing I liked about those days then. Your next door neighbor was different from your next door neighbor now. You always know who your neighbor was then, back there then, because you was interested in how your neighbor was getting along, what was happening over at your neighbor's house. Not for gossip, but to help.	6:08
Erma Hayes Russell	And that's what they did in those days. I can't say back there because I was quite young. I can't say I was happy about it because my mother would go, always go and see about the neighbors. And me being the oldest child, I had to go along with them. And I got tired of going seeing about the neighbors. She would go wash, iron, cook, whatever had to be done. She would go and take me along. If it was day or night, I would have to go. I didn't like it then, but I like it now, because I see and I know, I understand what was going on at that time. I didn't understand then. But since I understand now, I know it's good. And right now I have part of that in me to do some of the same things that my mother did.	7:18
Doris Dixon	What would a visit to one of your neighbors be like? What was a typical visit like?	8:22
Erma Hayes Russell	To visit the neighbors at that time? Do you mean when they were sick or just an ordinary visit?	8:28
Doris Dixon	Both.	8:39
Erma Hayes Russell	Both? Well, to me, at that time I was quite young. All I was thinking about was playing somewhere. What could I play with? And being a girl with growing up with a bunch of brothers and no sister, at that time I grew up kind of rough like climbing trees and so on, and rolling wheel barrels and so on like that, and other things that boys did. Mostly what boys did. And my mother taught me how to sew and do things quite young and I did that for the neighbors.	8:40
Erma Hayes Russell	When my mother would visit the neighbors, it was just going to another sister or brother's house. That's what it was like. And like I foresaid, when you go there, whatever needed to be done, that's what was done. Whatever was needed at that house, that's what was done. When we visit the other neighbors. And they would sit down and talk and enjoyed each other. And it seemed like they was having pleasant conversations together. If one had to quilt, this would go over and visit that neighbor and they'd do a quilt, shell peas or do some canning or whatever. That's what they did together.	9:27
Doris Dixon	So it just wasn't conversation? People would actually pitch in a hand for whatever needed done?	10:17
Erma Hayes Russell	Right, right.	10:23
Doris Dixon	Was there a particular time of the day for visiting? Like, after your work was done?	10:25
Erma Hayes Russell	No, it was whenever this person could get off to do it. Mostly in the afternoon. Mostly. Okay?	10:35
Doris Dixon	So your mother might still have her own work to do but she might go and see about someone else?	10:47
Erma Hayes Russell	Yes. And she might have to pass three or four neighbors house trying to get to the house where she's going to. And each house she passed, the lady would holler out and ask, "Ms. Hayes, where you going?" And she'd say, "I'm going down to see such and such a person." And they'll say, "Wait, let me go with you." She'll catch on when she get to the next house. It was the same thing. The next house is the same thing. When they get to the house, it would be three or four women going to that house because they was just that much interested in sharing and helping one another. Oh, I wish it was like that now.	10:52
Doris Dixon	Now, if some of the women were coming to visit your home, would you be expected to offer them something or was there, I guess what was the expectation for what you extended to them?	11:40
Erma Hayes Russell	What did we expect from that person?	11:55
Doris Dixon	No, ma'am. I guess what would you give? If they came to your house, did you serve something? Something to drink or something to eat?	11:57
Erma Hayes Russell	If I had something to serve, sure we would serve it. If there were anything to serve, we'd serve it. Because so many times at my home during that time, my mother and dad would love to—they loved to—mother loved to cook and feed people. My dad liked to make big barrels of lemonade and serve people. And if it was watermelon time, he likes to get out under the tree on a big table and cut many watermelons and serve people watermelons until they just fill up. They looked like they enjoyed doing things like that.	12:06
Doris Dixon	Now, did the men have a different pattern of visiting? You mentioned the ladies would go with each other, would the men do it? They had their own set of visitations?	12:54
Erma Hayes Russell	Yes.	13:05
Doris Dixon	Okay.	13:05
Erma Hayes Russell	Theirs were different. I don't know just how they went about it, but I know my dad used to go and sit with all the men and just talk. They'd just go around and talk with each other. But I didn't pay as much attention to what they were doing as I did to what the lady folks was doing. Because during that time, sometime during of the year, my daddy was also molasses maker, I think that's what you call it. He would make molasses. And he'd have a lot of companies sitting around him talking while he's working, making molasses. So that was during the latter summer, early fall,	13:06
Doris Dixon	What about the young people, did they visit?	14:09
Erma Hayes Russell	Mostly they would play baseball. That's what they had at that time. They would visit each other and swim in little mud holes wherever they could find one. That's what I can remember them doing mostly.	14:14
Doris Dixon	What about you? There were young ladies in the neighborhood that you would go see, girls your age?	14:31
Erma Hayes Russell	Oh, we just had things in common. Just talk. And we didn't have much to play around with, but that's all we could do is talk and share our interests in whatever was available at that time to be interested in. It wasn't much to be like it is now to claim your interests. We didn't have television and we didn't even have radios part of the time. But as I grew up, we did have radios, but not the television. That I'm talking about in my lifetime, young days. It's been many years ago. Okay.	14:41
Doris Dixon	Now, give us a sense of neighborliness people visit with and that it doesn't exist, at least not to the same level today. What about when you had your own family? By the time you had your own family, were people still doing these things? Were they still visiting and helping each other? So I'm saying in between yesterday and today.	15:33
Erma Hayes Russell	Not as much. Not as much. Things, as time changed, things changed and people changed. People didn't visit as much. But some had same interests. They were interested in others, but they didn't do as well as they did years ago in my childhood days. When I grew up, people would help. And they'll help now, but you have to pay people to help you now. At that time you didn't expect people to pay you, neither did you expect to pay people, because there weren't any charges then. No charges. They just helped. But as time grew on, passed on, things changed. Wasn't like that anymore.	16:04
Doris Dixon	Even by the time you were married it was not like that before?	17:17
Erma Hayes Russell	By the time I married it was still like that. But after I married it wasn't like that.	17:20
Doris Dixon	What year were you married?	17:26
Erma Hayes Russell	Beg your pardon?	17:26
Doris Dixon	What year were you married?	17:30
Erma Hayes Russell	In 1941.	17:33
Doris Dixon	Okay. In later years were there other places that people might congregate or gather as opposed to visiting?	17:48
Erma Hayes Russell	Only the church at that particular time, only the church. Until about later on in the '60s I believe it was, they start making centers to meet in. This is in the rural. In the city it was different. In the city, we had nice little meeting places to meet. Different little halls to meet for recreation in the city. But in the rural it was different, you see? And I had shared both because I was living in Jackson at one time and we had plenty of recreation places to meet. Then at Saints we had recreation places there to be. But out in the rural, in the community there weren't anywhere to meet but in the church until in the '60s. And they start making center—organizing centers in different areas of the county where people could meet and have their different meetings and not have to do all this in the church.	18:01
Erma Hayes Russell	And sometime on church time. Sometime when we want to meet and have a meeting at the center, it would be right on church time. So it was good that they could have their centers. Because when they were having it in the church, it was time for prayer service or revival or some type of church service, you see? But the church went along with the community until the community could get a place to do this. Because at that particular time, we weren't allowed to have all the different meetings that we wanted to have in the schoolhouse. So we had to do it in our church because of this law.	19:32
Doris Dixon	Because of Jim Crow?	20:30
Erma Hayes Russell	Yeah.	20:30
Doris Dixon	When did you move to Jackson and how long were you there?	20:36
Erma Hayes Russell	Went to Jackson in 1937 and I attend the school there in '37. It was either '36 and '37, or '37 and '38. But from that time, from '37, I know until '41, early '41 I was at Saints. At Saints. When I left Saints, I went back to Jackson and worked until I got married.	20:44
Doris Dixon	Were you in a boarding school in Jackson? Were you boarding?	21:31
Erma Hayes Russell	No, it was a public school. Jim Hill Junior High School.	21:36
Doris Dixon	Your whole family had moved to Jackson?	21:40
Erma Hayes Russell	No. Part of my family was in Jackson. We were just like a family. We were. My mother's sisters, three sisters was in Jackson. And she would send me there to help those sisters. They had problems with illness in their families and my mother would send me to help them. So when time come to go to school, I started, I went to school in Jackson from the ninth grade. And after then I left and went to Saints and finished school at Saints.	21:42
Doris Dixon	You started out in Holmes County public school?	22:39
Erma Hayes Russell	That's right.	22:41
Doris Dixon	Do you have many memories of that school?	22:43
Erma Hayes Russell	Memories?	22:46
Doris Dixon	Yes, ma'am.	22:46
Erma Hayes Russell	Yes. My memories, I would start out by saying I loved my classwork. Always did. From the primary grade up. I loved my classwork. Because I had one friend in the class with me from the primary grades up until the seventh or eighth grade. One friend that went all the way with me. And if I have to say it myself, we always got our lesson because in the early grades, the teacher always say, "Whoever get that lesson, you get a prize Monday morning." We wanted that prize. We didn't miss school a day and we didn't miss our lesson a day. And we would always get at—you would have to—they had it so you head and foot, we'd get at the foot of the class. They used to stand and read, and stand, recite your lesson.	22:49
Erma Hayes Russell	We'd always get at the foot of the class because we knew we were going to the head. And we did that until we departed. We departed by moving from in different areas from each other. That's how we got apart from each other. And when I finished school, I mean went to—that was at a school called Bliss Dale. Then we come to Mount Zion School. When I finished school at Mount Zion on Jacob McClain, which is the school in Lexington that's named for him, as J.J. McClain.	24:01
Erma Hayes Russell	When I finished school there, then that's when I went to Jackson. And I thought because I was from the rural, I didn't know my lesson because I thought I couldn't compete with the city students. I thought the city students would know more than I did because I was from the rural. And once every week they would have a reading match and a spelling match. And it was 90 in the class, my class, in the class. 90 student in the class. And was I one scared soul. But one city boy and myself would always be the last on the floor. And I could have felt proud of myself, but I was still scared because I thought city children knew more than country children.	24:43
Erma Hayes Russell	And in the English class, when we tried to conjugate verbs, Jake McClain had us conjugating verbs so much until I could just shut my eyes and see "Oh, verbs to be." And when that rough teacher, they said she was the roughest teacher at Jim Hill School, would have us all on the board writing out, conjugating those verbs. I would have my—two other girls and myself would be the last one on the floor each time. And she said, "Where did y'all come from? Who was your teacher? Who was your teacher?" When I said Jacob McClain, she walked off from me.	25:43
Erma Hayes Russell	I didn't never know why until one day I met him and was telling him how I was getting along down there in school and who my teacher was, Molly Young. He said, "That was my classmate at Jackson State." She knew my teacher. He was out here in the rural, she was still in Jackson teaching. But they knew he was a good teacher. I thought he was a bad teacher because he made me get my lesson. But I'm proud of him, tell you that. And he's dead. But I'm proud of him. He made me. He just sought to me getting my lesson. If I didn't, we would get a punishment.	26:35
Doris Dixon	Were there things that you disliked about school?	27:13
Erma Hayes Russell	Only one thing in Jackson. That was, I was a religious person and the entire class, except two others besides myself, didn't believe in carrying out the devotion in a religious way, you see? They thought they were right and I thought I was right. I was right. Didn't either one want to give in. We didn't have the knowledge, I guess to give in. Didn't either one want to give in, and the teacher wasn't with us. That's one thing that I had that we'll start off, we'll sing a spiritual song, and then we'll pray, and then they'll go into Old Black Joe and Way Down On the Swanee River and so on. That was what it's called a folk song or something like that. And we would get things kind of mixed up. But other than that I judged that everything else was fine and complete.	27:21
Doris Dixon	And you mentioned that you had talked with people about your living conditions. What about the conditions of the school? What were the different schools you went to, what conditions were they in?	28:45
Erma Hayes Russell	To me, in the rural school, we didn't have water like we should have. We had one school teacher to a whole—at one school. To everybody that went to school from that community there were one teacher to all those students. We moved to the next community, that was pretty good except the heating condition. What heat was available, we had to adjust to that. And when it got hot, we just had to adjust to the heat because we didn't have any fan. So those was the conditions on which we had to undergo at the school that I went to. Well, I won't talk about the other rural schools because some of them was in really bad condition with window panes out and inadequate doors.	29:07
Erma Hayes Russell	It just wasn't in good condition. But where I attend it did very well except the water. We didn't have the proper water, we didn't have the proper facility indoor. We didn't have any indoor facilities at all. That was in the rural. We didn't have any indoor facilities at all. But in the city it was different. That was in Jackson. But at Saints, we still didn't have indoor bath, washroom.	30:22
Doris Dixon	How big was the school in Jackson?	31:04
Erma Hayes Russell	Well, it was a large two-story brick building.	31:08
Doris Dixon	Okay. It was fairly modest?	31:12
Erma Hayes Russell	Yeah.	31:26
Doris Dixon	In your time did you have your family come and bring you wood to the school and coal to the school?	31:26
Erma Hayes Russell	In the rural, they did. I don't know how they heated in the city. I wasn't even interested at that time. I just looked for it to be nice and warm when I got there and it was.	31:26
Doris Dixon	Did that make a big difference?	31:44
Erma Hayes Russell	Sure, sure.	31:44
Doris Dixon	Now, in the rural were you—your family brought or your brothers brought wood or did you? Who in the family might bring some wood to the school?	31:48
Erma Hayes Russell	They had trustees at that time of the school. They had what you call trustees, some men that was elected to take care of the conditions of the school, whatever they were. And these men would see to there being wood at the school. And sometime when it wasn't adequate wood there, they would send the young boys, the teachers would send the boys out to get wood, collect wood, gather wood in the evening and gather fire wood for to start fire the next morning. That was the condition in the rural. So I was looking for the fire to be hot when I got there then. I still was looking for a warm fire.	32:00
Doris Dixon	Was there a PTA in the rural?	32:52
Erma Hayes Russell	Yes. Yes. They were a PTA. And we still have PTAs. At that time, the parents seemed to be quite interested in the PTA. Seemed like they was more interested than they are now, because mostly we have in the PTA now are teachers. And it's supposed to be parents, children, and teachers now. So some of the teachers are there, but the parents not there like they should be.	32:53
Doris Dixon	Did they raise money—you mentioned some of the schools have windows broken out. Did they have fundraisers from the school?	33:53
Erma Hayes Russell	Yes, some did. But action was quite slow, because some whole windows, they went with pasteboard up to the windows. My sister was a teacher at one school and she would sometimes put her overcoat, run a coat, pull off her coat and stick it in the window to keep the air off the children. And when she got tired of that, she quit teaching and went to Chicago, got her a job.	34:02
Doris Dixon	Would you please share with me some of your memories of going to Saints High School and college?	34:48
Erma Hayes Russell	Going to Saints, there we had to wear a uniform. A blue and white uniform. And the class, I don't remember how many we had in class there, but we kept the same class members in our class during the years that I was there. And we all graduated together. But to me, it was one of the best schools that you can go to. And at first they used to didn't have a lot of athletic games to play with and on and on down through time they added on. And at one time they didn't believe in playing ball, but Bishop Mason told them that the children, the boys should be out there playing, doing something, let them play ball.	34:58
Erma Hayes Russell	And Bishop Mason threw the first ball out there at that school and started the children playing ball. And other activities they got started on the campus. Now, one thing back there we didn't have was a lunchroom and we got pretty hungry. So they built a lunchroom out of a log cabin. Logs. Built a log cabin out of logs and started a little lunchroom. And they would make soup and we'd have soup and crackers. And the bowl soup and two or three crackers cost about three cents. And we didn't even have that.	36:06
Erma Hayes Russell	We didn't have that. But when we did have it, when we did have enough to buy a bowl of soup and some crackers, we shared with each other with the little money that we had. Like, I'll loan you some money so you could have some and the other girl or whoever. And then next time if they have money, they'll let me have money to get me some soup and crackers. And I could always remember that's what we had at the log cabin was soup and cracker. And it was good because we were hungry. They went from there on to something else. They always had a dining hall for the dormitory children. But I didn't live in the dormitory. I was a community student. I lived in the community, roomed in the community. And I'd go from the community school, but we'd get hungry through the day.	36:56
Erma Hayes Russell	From there, the next interesting thing to me was the choir that I enjoyed very much. I was a contralto in the choir at that time and I could sing at that time and enjoyed it. And we had a group at the school that was a group that went around and sang, raised money for the school. They were always gone. But we had another group at the school that I sang with. And some of them was my classmates and most of them was my classmates. But we had this group at the school that I sang with and we would sing right around in the communities, like from Lexington and each one. Where each student home was we'd go to their church and sing and raise money. So that was interesting. The next interesting thing was our prayer room. I was interested in that. And one time we prayed so that my prayer—when my prayer period was over with, from 2:00 until 2:15, when the time was over, I had gotten so happy until I couldn't stop praying, I kept on praying.	38:12
Erma Hayes Russell	But when the other group, three groups, three—the other three people come in to pray, regardless whether you up and gone or not, they had to do their. And one time we did that until so many came in and got to praying, until the teacher had to come in, tell us to go home. We started a revival from there. A revival. They say, "If you just go home, we'll let you come back tonight and finish." Coming back that night started a revival and the children started getting saved. Some had been there for a number of years and had never been in any kind of church. They got saved from that prayer meeting. It went into a revival. And Dr. Mallory was there. She saw to us coming and going each night. And some children, even some of the teachers laid out on the floor all night trying to receive the Baptist and the Holy Ghost.	39:37
Erma Hayes Russell	This was great. That was great. I enjoyed it. And I always will think about the days I had at Saints, how enjoyable it was. And we always had what you call May Day. We marched around the square in Lexington and that was a great beautiful march, because everybody was dressed in blue and white, blue and white, blue and white. A blue skirt, white blouse. And I just got to the place where I loved Saints because you're supposed to live in dignity, walk in dignity, and talk in dignity. That's what we was taught to do and that's what we tried to do.	40:39
Doris Dixon	Yeah. Walk and talk in dignity?	41:35
Erma Hayes Russell	Yeah. Since I left there, two of my children finished school there, went to college there. My oldest daughter and my second son finished college there. And then the third son—coming from the top down, the third son. Now, those are teenage pictures up there. But they grown men and women now. The third picture, he taught school there and his children went to school there. So we had three generations that went to Saints. Me, my children and their children.	41:38
Doris Dixon	Who were your most important teachers?	42:35
Erma Hayes Russell	Now, you're saying that—	42:43
Doris Dixon	—I guess, were there teachers who, I mean, I'm sure all your teachers really [indistinct 00:42:51]. I was just wondering if there were particular ones that stood out in your mind?	42:48
Erma Hayes Russell	Mrs. Gilbert. Mrs. Gilbert. She seemed to have been most sympathetic. All of them was good. All of them was all right to me. But Mrs. Gilbert seemed to be more considerate, more understandable, more understanding with the student, if you had a problem. If you had a problem and you explained your problem, she could understand it. And she could know whether you just sang something or whether you really had a problem. And if you really had a problem, she would consider you. And she would say, "Young lady, I would like to talk with you." And if it was a time where she couldn't talk to you, she'd pass by you and touch you and say, "Hold on. Just hold on. God is with you. Hold on." And with those words coming to you at a time where you in distress and somebody tell you, "Let's pray about it." That makes you feel good and let you feel that somebody is with you, you're not alone, you see?	42:57
Erma Hayes Russell	And that was the kind of person she was. And her husband was—he was a minister from World War I that had not finished school before he went to war. And he came back to school there in his advanced age and got in class along with the others. And I was one of his teachers at Saints along with the eighth grade students. She taught eighth grade. When she couldn't teach the eighth grade class, she would always get me to take care of her class for her. And he was in that class. And he was interested too. He would always say, "Young lady, hold on, God be with you." Because it was rough with many of us at that time. We didn't have telephone. We couldn't reach our parents or get what we wanted because there weren't many cars. You couldn't travel like you wanted to. It was just hard during that time. But we made it. I have a daughter that sang, I Made It. The second daughter sang. She with her daddy now. She took him to church.	44:28
Doris Dixon	Like you were stranded on—you were in the Lexington community and your parents lived?	45:53
Erma Hayes Russell	In the Howard community about 10 or 12 miles away.	45:57
Doris Dixon	Okay.	46:12
Erma Hayes Russell	Yep. And no way to get there. Except at times you can find somebody with a car that might take out time and take you after work hours. Not only me, it was that way with many students. Because you see, when students lived in other states, and see, a lot of Saints students was out-of-state students. And I guess it was just as rough with them, but—	46:12

Erma Hayes Russell	—Morning. She would fix big boxes of food and send it to me more than I can eat. And the pastor, she would send it by the pastor. He lived in Jackson. He come through that way and bring me this box of food. The teachers and the students were saying, Ms. Hayes, remember me, Ms. Hayes remember me. And I would have enough to share. And I guess my mother knew that. That's why she said so much because I share. And often school like that. And you went away from your parents or anybody. No money. What money you had that went to the school, looked like.	0:00
Erma Hayes Russell	And when somebody did give you a slice of cake or a piece of chicken drumstick, whether it was a back or neck, they was glad to get it. We're all glad, when sharing time come. So I just enjoyed at Saints. They just didn't have facilities at that time as they should, like indoor washrooms and neither drinking water. Didn't have any of those. Neither one available. But for the girls—Have you been out to Lexington? [indistinct 00:01:51] since they had the big building out there. They have this big multi-purpose building up on the hill, way up on the hill. Up on that hill, that's where the good toilet was up there.	0:49
Erma Hayes Russell	About three or four, four holes, four or five holes—Seats. Seats for to sit on. It was up there. And the name of it was Durant. They call it Durant. And when you got ready to go to the restroom, you tell the teacher, may I go to Durant. See that that tickles him. But they don't have that at that school. It's a new thing. At his school, they just go to restroom. But we had to go to what you call Durant and sometimes it'd be raining and you had to go up on the hill and we had to pull mud to get up on that hill to the restroom. I mean, walking mud, sliding, just sliding, trying to get up the hill. But now they have a big old, multi-purpose building up there. And cemented, they hold the campus, cemented and cemented all the way up, all the way around the building. Don't have to walk in the dirt, mud, anything. Many changes have been made.	2:06
Doris Dixon	How were the classrooms?	3:39
Erma Hayes Russell	Warm, when it was warm. Cold, when it was cold. We didn't have heaters in this classroom. And we had science room. I liked that. It was very interesting. The science room was very interesting. I liked it. Even though we did get blowed up in there almost one time. When everything blew up and come down, they didn't have a one door out. Ever since then, I do not like any building with one way in and one way out. They didn't have a one way out, one door. And I was down here and the door was up here. By the time I got out, all these stockings had dropped down off me, they had done dropped down off me and my clothes had turned brown from that acid or whatever, all that stuff, that blew up. Stocking dropped down off. No more stockings on. They gone that quick. By the time I got out the door. Not just me, we. It was us. It was a bunch of us like that. But I was in the group.	3:47
Erma Hayes Russell	From then till now I don't want—When I go to a building and one door there, one way in—Uh-huh, I don't want to go in there. They tell me a bunch of [indistinct 00:05:53] the fire. That's true. All right. I've been there. I don't want to be caught in a place where one way out. You heard of the Natchez burning? Did you hear of the Natchez burning? This big building where all these people went there. I've forgotten what they went for, but they had one way out and a lot of young people slipped off and went to that particular thing that they had that night. And when that building caught on fire, it caught on fire up there at the front door. Up there at the front. And that's where they found most of them, laying down some trampled to death. Not burnt to death, trampled to death. Okay. I guess I've talked too much. Okay.	5:34
Doris Dixon	Your classes, you have mentioned that you pretty much stayed in the same bunch. After graduation, have the classes stay in touch? Were there reunions?	7:00
Erma Hayes Russell	Some of us did and some of us still stay in touch with each other, but most of my classmates are dead. Most of them are dead. And a few of us left now, we are glad to see each other, just like we are sisters and brothers. Once they left and some of the main ones, they gone on. Yeah. I don't know. I think I have—I don't know. I may have a picture of my classmates. I'm thinking that I have. If my children don't have them, they said they was going to get them enlarged where I could see them better. Because they were small pictures at that time. Yeah.	7:14
Doris Dixon	Being a senior, [indistinct 00:08:28]?	8:19
Erma Hayes Russell	Jackson State, I tried to go there. But me being the oldest child at home, I had to quit school and help my mother send the other children to school. And my next sister under me after I got married late that fall of the year. And I let her have my clothes so she could go to school. And I had a brother. I had a brother that had to hitchhike to school, because there weren't buses at that time. And they had organized the school, one rural school—See it used didn't be in a rural high school and they had built his school down here to high school, and he had to come, I guess it's about 12 or 13 miles from where he lived to this school. He had to hitchhike his way.	8:31
Erma Hayes Russell	And I just felt sorry for those children. And I just sacrificed myself to help—And my husband helped me to help them to go to school and to—My husband got some kind of old truck and he would transport them in his old truck and just help them out. So we helped and helped, and helped down to the last one when we got out to the last one, which was my baby sister, which is the same age as my oldest child. That was the only one we didn't help with. Because we sent her and my oldest child to Jackson State together and we didn't have to help with her because mom and daddy was able then financially to help her themselves.	10:02
Erma Hayes Russell	They didn't need our help anymore. We got to the place where we needed theirs. Because you see how many went to school up there? I think everything up there went to college, except two. Except two. And that's the one in that red, in the middle. He went to a trade school. He didn't go to college. He went to a trade school and one girl didn't graduate. That's the one in the little picture up there. A little picture with a hat on. She took sick. She took a thyroid problem and she had it for a long time before we knew what was the matter, why she didn't graduate. But the boy that went to a trade school, the job he got, he worked for General Motors, making calls and—	11:06
Doris Dixon	Did all your children finish college?	12:00
Erma Hayes Russell	Huh?	12:07
Doris Dixon	Did the the rest finish school, finish college? Did the rest of them finish college?	12:11
Erma Hayes Russell	All of them didn't finish college, but some of them did. Some finished college and two finished junior college and got other jobs. But those three girls there, they was working in the public school before they left home—	12:15

Doris Dixon	You said your third daughter went to Germany?	0:07
Erma Hayes Russell	Oh, she was there for a year because her husband was a chaplain in the army and a lieutenant captain and some of her children was born in Germany. The second girl, she teaches in Jackson. The first girl, she was—All three of them worked in the public schools here, but they left when they got married. They went to another place. So she's in Ohio. One at the top is in Ohio. She works with a daycare and she works at night part-time with Jesse Penny. The fourth girl down here, she has a daycare center in Chicago. And this little girl down here, that's the youngest daughter. She has real long pretty hair and she didn't have nothing much when she had that picture made, but she has long pretty hair. And she's been in France. She stayed there a number of years in the Army. She was in the Army and after she came back, she was still in reserve. That made her be in this—	0:10
Doris Dixon	National Guard?	1:36
Erma Hayes Russell	No, this place where those children got burned up, all those children, Desert Storm, she was there. She and my grandson, one of my grandsons were there together in that, whatever it was, that fighting or whatever was going on. The boy by her, that's my baby. He doesn't have all that long hair anymore. He's clean haired. He's 33. And that girl is older than he is and he's been in Germany a number of years or, Ohio, Chicago, everywhere. And he's back home now. He's the one live over there in the trailer. He been away for years. And so he come back. Nobody here but dad and myself. So he and his wife is here now. This is their son.	1:43
Erma Hayes Russell	The one at the top young, that's just James Jr. He lives in St. Louis, Missouri. He working there. The second is Willie. He has his own business in Washington, DC. The next one is Clinton. He's a twin. He's the one used to teach at college at Saints. He's a young man too. And he had some smart children. His wife was a teacher. He had some smart children too. They mostly all of them, mostly grown his children. And the third down the fourth boy, that's Harold. Harold and this girl over here about with the red bow, it's twins Harold and Carol. They're twins. Harold is in Jackson. He was working at Jackson State and UPS. UPS was paying most money, giving him a raise. And he left Jackson State and went to UPS and he's still with UPS and been there with them for years.	2:46
Erma Hayes Russell	So they all doing something for themselves and I'm proud of that. That's my family and what they are doing. Some teachers, some preachers, some mechanics, different things and some ain't nothing. So why would I say it like that? Because they won't even try. They not just out there. But I look for them. They not living on us but I look for them to make a life for themselves. They're not in the drug business.	3:54
Erma Hayes Russell	They're not, if they're alcoholics, I don't know that. I know one or two of them drinks but I haven't seen them. All they do they tell me, "You can't prove it." I sure can't. Okay. Okay.	4:49
Doris Dixon	Was it hard providing for your children? Yeah. When you had your family, I mean I guess how was it economically when you trying to raise your children? You have those tough times?	5:10
Erma Hayes Russell	Sometimes. At times though, sometimes it seemed like we couldn't make ends meet until we got to the place where some was large enough to help themselves and to help others too. And then when it come to clothing, by me sewing I could make some of the things that they needed and then by others. But after, for a long time, for a number of years, well I say from the '60s, from the latter '50s and '60s and through the '60s there were friends that came in to help the needed like at Saints, Saints would hire Black and White teachers there, all right? Some of the White teachers were Mennonites. And at that time I was recruiting clothes for the children to go to school, any children. I was recruiting that. And this Mennonite asked me, "Ms. Russell, what are you doing?" And when I told him, he said, "Let us help you." I didn't know that they were rich people at that time.	5:35
Erma Hayes Russell	And I said, well that was on Friday. I said, "Wait until Monday." When I went back Monday he already had three bales of clothes, brand new clothes, shoes and clothes, everything. Didn't have to go for no help for any help. They had them there ready for me. And from then up to now they are still helping some way or another. Now he passed on. He sat up in his chair one morning and died. But his wife, every once in a while she'll send me a little check if it's not but $30 she'll send a little check and said, "We want to keep in touch." She and another family named Crowder.	7:16
Erma Hayes Russell	From that time what they remember, Mrs. Crowder sent boxes of clothes for my children. They stayed in school and in fact the Lord just helped me take care of my children. The Lord was in the plan because when my husband was so sick and stayed in the hospital three months at a time, I almost gave up. But I had a mind that it's just something deep within telling me, "I was going to make it." And I didn't know how I was going to send my children to school through the winter. And one young white girl come through said, "The Lord told her to drive through this way." And when she drove through this way, coming in from that way, this road is made like a horseshoe. She said when she got here, said the spirit told her to stop. And when she stopped she come in, she didn't know me and I didn't know her and she asked how we were doing and everything.	8:07
Erma Hayes Russell	And when she found out my husband was in the hospital, she said, "What your children going to do about clothes?" I said, "I don't know." She said, "Well Christmas coming on, what they going to do about toys?" I said, "They won't have any toys. They won't have any toys." She said, "Oh yes they will." I said, "No, I know they won't have any toys." She said, "Well let's just see." That was the end of that. She came back just before the day before Christmas Eve. She brought a ton of blue jeans. She brought enough clothes for my boy. I had six boys. She brought enough clothes for all of my boys to go through the whole school term and enough toys, more toys than they had ever had in their life. They could have two and three toys each. A big trucks, trains, everything. All them you named dolls and everything.	9:10
Erma Hayes Russell	So I just said Lord was in the plan because I didn't know her and she didn't know me. But she said her mother did that kind of work for people. They didn't live here, they lived away. And she came through the community and she started working out at Lexington for what you call it, as a social worker. And that's what happened. And that's what happened all the way down through the years. The Lord always made a way for us, always made a way. And sometime when I didn't have a dime, didn't know where I was going to get the next money or the next meal from, when I go to the mailbox, there's a check in there for $100. And one time I actually cried.	10:21
Erma Hayes Russell	I said, "Now who could send me $100 and just sign an initial?" And one time I got a box of nice clothes and they wouldn't tell me who sent the clothes. I just had a note and said, "I know you don't know who this is and I'm not going to tell you," but the box was from Chicago. And say, "But I know you have young children and I figured you could use these clothes." And they were girl clothes and I was so happy. I said, "I just wish I knew who it was so I could thank them." And my husband said, "Don't worry about it, just use the clothes." I said, "But I am concerned. I just want to let them know I got the clothes." I said, "They should at least let me know enough to find out where they are and who they are. But I don't have an address other than Chicago."	11:21
Erma Hayes Russell	But the Lord just had been working with us and taking care of us all the way. And January this year my husband had a stroke. Got out of it and went on about his business and it twisted his one leg in and got it shorter than the other one, but he's still going on and April he had another stroke. It affected his speech. He makes his sentences backward but he's still going on. I don't have to wait on him. When I wake up in the morning, he has already fixed breakfast and has eaten. Took his bath, got his clothes on, looking at the news or whatever. And I had a stroke in April, March. And so we still carrying on, both of us and we can cook and feed ourselves and everything. And I think it's just great. The Lord is blessing us and as the Lord bless us, we tries to bless someone else and we try to train our children up in the right way so they'll know how to treat other people, their families plus other people.	12:29
Doris Dixon	Could you tell me some more about what it means to—When you say train the children in the right way, what did you mean?	13:52
Erma Hayes Russell	What I mean about that, in this life you meet up with many obstacles in life and you can't fight back all the time. There's some things you just got to take. It doesn't mean that you have to let a person run over you all the time, but there's some things you can really take. You can hush your mouth sometimes. If a person call you a bad name, you know you not that. You don't have to haul off and slap him, hit him or whatnot, then you don't have to call him anything back. You can hush. What did it do to you? What did that do? All right, the person can still rob, take from you, which these things is being done every day by the higher officials and we not doing anything about it.	14:04
Erma Hayes Russell	Some things we can tell God about and just wait on the law. And I declare one day somebody that you know that did you wrong misuse you in some way, one day when you see that person, you going be sorry for them. You hate to see them go through what they going through because this is a world where you reap what you sow.	15:00
Erma Hayes Russell	So if you don't sow good seeds, you going to reap what your sow. If they were bad, you going to reap it. So whatever you do, let it be good. And this is what I tell them, you don't have to fight back all the time. If a person spit in your face, you don't have to fight back. You can take it and live with it. And when you don't fight back all the time and when you keep your mouth, even if it's your husband or your wife, when you don't say anything, even if it's your boss, they really don't know how to handle you. But if you talk enough, they know exactly what to do for you because they can read you out through your talking. They can tell what you thinking because you'll speak out and say what you going to do. You done told them what you going to do. But if you don't say anything, they don't know what you might do. You see?	15:30
Doris Dixon	What did you teach your children about their behavior? Say for instance going out and they were out of the home, how were they expected to behave?	16:41
Erma Hayes Russell	Behave? The Lord is in that plan too. You teach them to behave. Don't you be the first to make offense. Don't you do it. If somebody offend you, you try to get rid of them in the best way you can. But don't you do it. Don't you be the person to do it. You behave yourself. But I'm not going to tell you to stand up there and let somebody fight you or beat you up, you see. You can defend yourself. But don't you go out there and start something yourself, you talking about my mama and you know you ain't studying about your own mama. Okay?	16:52
Erma Hayes Russell	Reason I said the Lord is in the plan, a few nights ago something happened to one of my daughters and somebody went in the house on him and my son found out who it was and he went to go for them. He got in his truck and started there. I wanted to tell him to "don't go," but he couldn't hear me for the truck. I had told him don't bother with them, don't bother that. He was going anyway. And I said, "Lord, don't let him go. Don't let it happen. I don't want him there because he's mad."	17:50
Erma Hayes Russell	You know what? His truck stopped on him and he couldn't get there. I laughed, I laughed. So I said, "I'm so glad that truck stopped on you because I didn't want you to go." He said, "The Lord wouldn't let me go." He knew himself what it was because he was angry at what was going on. He was angry. So sometime when you tell God about it, even if you in school, when you in school you know you don't know this lesson, you can't make this test. But keep on trying and after trying, ask the Lord to help you. The Lord have helped me make my test and made 100 on him without having my books because I couldn't get a book to study the test. Just tell God about it. That's the thing.	18:38
Doris Dixon	What did you do for a living?	19:36
Erma Hayes Russell	Huh?	19:36
Doris Dixon	Were you farming at this?	19:40
Erma Hayes Russell	My husband?	19:40
Doris Dixon	Mm-hmm. At this?	19:40
Erma Hayes Russell	Yes. After he came from the army, we farmed a while. We farmed a while. I think we had about four girls and four boys. Four girls and three boys when we start farming. When we stopped farming. While we stopped farming, those boys, every time one got out of college, they got them a job and went to work in the city and they didn't come back. So my husband didn't have anybody helping on the farm and we had to give up the farm because they passed a law, if you don't work the farm yourself or your children can't work on the farm. And see, after we rented it out, then our children couldn't work on the farm. So then he continued his preaching. He was pastoring four churches at the time. Yeah, he just continued in the ministry and—	19:46
Doris Dixon	He was doing that full-time?	20:56
Erma Hayes Russell	Uh-huh. Yeah. This something,	20:57
Doris Dixon	They passed a law about the use of your own land?	21:00
Erma Hayes Russell	Mm-hmm.	21:05
Doris Dixon	I didn't understand.	21:06
Erma Hayes Russell	Yeah, your own land.	21:06
Doris Dixon	It said if you or your children couldn't do the farming, you had to sell it?	21:09
Erma Hayes Russell	No. If you rented it. See, we couldn't work it. We couldn't work it. I couldn't work on the farm. I always had problems with my legs. I couldn't work on the farm. And, you see, he couldn't do it by himself. He rented his farm land out. When he rented his farm land out, then they had passed this law that if you not working the crop yourself, your children couldn't work on the farm, you see. And so that was it for the rest of the family, boys and girls, they couldn't work out there. And other folks would come there and work right out there on our farm.	21:13
Doris Dixon	But your children—	22:03
Erma Hayes Russell	And my children in the yard playing, they couldn't work out there. That was the law that they had passed.	22:04
Doris Dixon	Wow. Do you remember approximately when that law came into effect?	22:15
Erma Hayes Russell	Not exactly, but it was probably in the '60s or '70's. Between '60 and '70.	22:26
Doris Dixon	And this, the land that your husband farmed had it been in his family for a long time?	22:41
Erma Hayes Russell	No, we just got it in '51. 1951.	22:49
Doris Dixon	Well you mentioned that your grandfather had had some. Is that still in the family?	23:04
Erma Hayes Russell	Yeah, that's still in the family. But no one lives there. They have died out. Now, just like down here. A lot of children, people, families was here when we first moved here in '51. But every grown person that was down here when we moved here, except my husband, main next house and the next house way down there on this side, the only three people still living. Everybody else is dead. There are family members, some family members in all those houses. But the older people that were young people when we moved here, they would be in their 70s and 80s now. They gone on. They did. So that's why I say it's just like it's a history book being bought up when an older person like that die because they can tell you a lot of things that happened long time ago. They can tell you about it. And some of those things, if you are interested in history, some of those things are really interesting to you.	23:11
Erma Hayes Russell	Now to me it is because the old man told me one day that we were living on top of houses down here and really? He said, "Yes ma'am." And he pointed out a place across the highway here. He pointed out that place in Westfield over there. I said, "Yes, sir." He said, "I used to live there. I used to live there." Said, "I went away. And when I come back, it had filled up so until I fell in a hole and when I fell in a hole, when I got on in there, a big bobcat jumped out the hole," and said, "and I looked out, I was in a house." "Down under the ground."	24:36
Erma Hayes Russell	He said, "Yeah." He said, "It's the same way over there where you stay." I said, "Well, I heard people say out there in front of my house that if you fall in a hole, you can't get out anymore. There's houses there. You living on top of houses." Said, "All that was low land. When we travel around here, it was in boats. We traveled in boats. So now since it's filled up, we don't have." I said, "Well how it filled up?" Said, "They wash from the hills down here. The hills washed down and all this used to be wooded land.	25:33
Erma Hayes Russell	And then cleared it up, made farms out of the valley, no water. Dug—What you call, creeks and levies, built levies and so on, running water on someone else. So to me, that was history to me. I said now I just hope I won't someday fall in a hole. But they told me, said, "Don't you notice every once in a while, don't you notice your house sinking?" I said, "Yeah." I said, "And we done built our walk two or three times on top of the ground." And we noticed the walk, all those bricks still go down in the ground. They're down in the ground again now. We done had a concrete walk across that way. You couldn't see it. Now the board done started another concrete walk on top of that one because the other one is out of sight.	26:16
Erma Hayes Russell	I said, "But how far are we going to sink?" That's history to me. Just like what I tell when I tell these young people about how we used to travel. I told them I went to high school in a wagon. When it rained so bad that we couldn't get from school, daddy had to come pick us up, come to the school and get us in a wagon. Ooh, that tickle him so bad. Who? How the wagon go. I said they had two mules to the wagon, pulling the wagon. They thought they, "You go that far in a wagon?" I said, "You had to or you walk that far. You had to." So that was it. We went to church in a buggy. I went other places and went to town, places in new wagon. So that was our life back there.	27:27
Erma Hayes Russell	But now it's different. Never had every young boy in good got their own transportation, their own car now. My grandchildren got their own car. "Granddaddy, I got to have a car. I'm going to school every day." They don't want to stay in the dormitory. They want to stay where they can commute to school. See?	28:34
Erma Hayes Russell	Oh, I talk too much, don't I? Yeah. So these where my grandchildren, all these little pictures. Here is my grands. Now this the last grand that I had here beside that one there. I raised this one, that one and that one with the cap over here. And Terrell—where Terrell picture, Adrian? Because Terrell is like—	29:02
Adrian	Right there.	29:31
Erma Hayes Russell	Now, that's his wife and baby with him. Now he's in Memphis. He's with MCI now.	29:40
Adrian	That's where they stay at.	29:46
Erma Hayes Russell	And where's George picture, Adrian? Where's George picture. Their mother, that's their mother up there with them when they were little. Where? Hannah here. Oh.	29:48
Adrian	Here.	30:03
Erma Hayes Russell	Yeah, that's his mother. That's the one took her daddy to church today. That second picture is her up there. So they all went—Let me see. No, he went to Russ College. That one went to Russ College. He finished. He graduated that other part of this year. Wife going to Russ now. This one finished at Jackson State. That's a young picture and Jackson State. And this one is going to Jackson State now on Jackson State. These are the ones I raised up right here, along with them last two there and last two of mine. So I've been there and right now I'm glad to retire. But yet, I won't retire. Not from here. If you wasn't here, I'd be on and now and when I get through, I'm going to church. I hope to go to church in Jackson tonight, even though we having revival here. But I promised my daughter, I would go one night with her. Okay.	30:06
Doris Dixon	What would you say would be some of the biggest differences between the way you came up and the way your children came up or were there differences?	31:29
Erma Hayes Russell	Oh yeah, a great difference because they had a greater—They have, not had. They had and they have greater advantages of everything. Food, clothing, transportation, jobs, everything. Their advantages is different and greater. Sure. There's a great difference between the way they were brought up and the way I was brought up because now they can get a job most anywhere they apply now, but back there then if it had stayed the same, I couldn't because the job that they have now, White people had them then.	31:39
Erma Hayes Russell	White people had them and you couldn't get a job like that. Now, working in the bank, in the post office, you see Blacks in all these places. Well, they couldn't get jobs like that then. Daycare centers, Whites was the head of all those. Now these children got their own daycare center, got their own businesses. And my second son got his own business. And driving those big trucks, UPS trucks. There's still only White people driving those. Blacks are driving them now too. They have a better advantage than we had.	32:38
Doris Dixon	And before we turned the tape on, you were telling me that you yourself never lived on a plantation.	33:26
Erma Hayes Russell	Beg you pardon?	33:34
Doris Dixon	Before we turned the tape recorder on you were telling me that you had never lived on a plantation.	33:35
Erma Hayes Russell	Right.	33:36
Doris Dixon	Your father owned—Oh, your father lived in your grandfather's place? I don't remember.	33:37
Erma Hayes Russell	He first, my dad first rented a place from a White man for so many years. And we had a disaster, which we had two deaths there. And he didn't want to stay there any longer. There wasn't a falling out or anything like that with he in the main because the main let him sell the place to another main. And we moved to a White man's place and stayed there three years. Rented a house from that White man three years until daddy could build us a house to stay in. And when he built a house while he was building a house for us to stay in, I think we worked for that White man one year or something like that. But we worked on the grandfather's farm. That's where he was building a house, on my grandfather's farm. That's where he built a house. And that's where we worked at on grandfather's farm.	33:45
Erma Hayes Russell	He said it was rough on the plantation, real rough. And at that time, even when I first married, White men were still whooping the Black folk, making them go to work. And in our area, one of the little Black—I mean he wasn't called Colored, he was really Black. Boy, broke it up on the plantation where he worked. He had been in the army and he come out and he going to work there for a man. The man was going to make his wife go to work, but his wife was sick. And this White man didn't care about the wife being sick. He just wanted her to go to field. And this Black boy had him to know that he married that girl, that was his wife, not the man's wife. And she wasn't going to the field. And he was right Black. And the more he talked, the redder his eyes got. His eyes turned red and his mouth was white.	34:52
Erma Hayes Russell	And the way he was looking, that man knew that boy a minute. He didn't bother his wife anymore and nobody else. And he was the kind that even whooped the men and made them go to field.	36:08
Doris Dixon	So it's pretty common for White landowners to try to coerce the family or coerced certain members of the family to work whether White people wanted them to or not?	36:25
Erma Hayes Russell	Now or then?	36:38
Doris Dixon	No. Then.	36:38
Erma Hayes Russell	Said it was pretty—	36:40
Doris Dixon	It was pretty common for the—	36:41
Erma Hayes Russell	Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I felt sorry for them because we lived on the borderline of a plantation one time. And I feel sorry for those people out there working in the hot sun. So when we moved here, these people go to work when they get ready, they come off work when they get ready. Whatever day they want to work, they work all day. And if they don't want to work the next day, they don't go to work the next day. They work just like they want to work and get the work done. But they couldn't do it on a plantation. And on a plantation those people went to town on Saturday. Everybody went to town on Saturday, Saturday evening.	36:43
Erma Hayes Russell	Down here, this used to be a plantation. It was turned into a government project for Black folk. And when these Black folks got here, if they went out there to work this morning and they feel like they want to go to town about eight or nine o'clock or by the time the stores open, they could work and go to town and come back any day or a week they wanted to. That was the advantage. Then everybody want to get them a home somewhere on a government project. So that's what they sought to do.	37:37
Doris Dixon	And you've been here since '51?	38:16
Erma Hayes Russell	Sure. Since '51. We didn't intend to stay here, but our parents grew older and they owned their own home. My husband parents first, she didn't want to leave. And when she passed on, then my daddy had gotten older, he didn't want to leave his home. And we stayed on here and helped them because all my sisters and brothers, they left. It was 11 of us. And then when daddy passed on, he was dead. He died 20 years before mama did. Then mama didn't want to leave the house. She said, "I can't stand to be shut up and locked up in the house all day." She wanted to stay where she could leave the doors wide open, sit out on the porch day and night, long as she want. And she said, "I can't stand be way upstairs fasten up all the windows down." Said, "Well I just can't stand there."	38:17
Erma Hayes Russell	So we just stayed on here. Plus we had a bunch of boys, we had six boys and I said, "Let's stay on here. When these boys get out of school, they get grown and leave. They on their own. If they get in trouble, get their own self out of trouble, they're off our hands." So we stayed here. We here until yet now they don't want us to leave. So we, Madera, they call me Madera, we got to come back home. We got to have somewhere to come back. We don't have but 65 acres of land. Other people around here have more land. A lot of it might be wooded area, but they have more land. But the 65 acres, everybody done picked out their own spot of ground. Every child I got done picked out their spot of ground where they want to live.	39:22
Erma Hayes Russell	So don't sell the place. Don't leave. We want to get out of the city. We want to have somewhere to go. And if you all leave, we won't have nowhere to go, so. One daughter, this daughter was here today, what I told you took her daddy to work. She has a big house. She got a big pool at her house. And they come here for recreation and then right down to a house and the food. Enjoyment they want come back to the rural. So when you live in the city, it's enjoyment to come back to the rural and it's enjoyment to the person that's in the rural go to the city sometime for that enjoyment.	40:30
Erma Hayes Russell	So nothing wrong about that, but with everybody gone and I'm used to a crowd, it's just kind of lonesome sometimes with everybody gone. But they come back quite often. But I'm glad when they left this time, because everybody came, but them two boys at the top. Everybody came in July. What, in this August. They brought their husbands and the husbands brought their wives and the children and some of them brought the grandchildren. And the house was full day and night, the yard. And I can't tell you everybody where some of them slept. And you've been to Jackson. Have you been to Jackson, Mississippi? Well it's about 70 or 80 miles down the road. They went to Jackson every day and come back here and slept at night, get up cooking and eating, back to Jackson and back. Just like they going up there to Tchula.	41:21
Adrian	Whoa.	42:33
Doris Dixon	On at Howard.	42:36
Erma Hayes Russell	Yeah. Yeah. I said, "You all sure do love to ride. You all love to ride." That was every day. But they enjoyed themselves. That was them. I didn't have to cook. I didn't have to do a thing but eat. They was washing and ironing every day. Cooking and eating every day. I didn't have a thing to do, but eat and keep talking. Okay.	42:37

Item Info

Title:

Erma Russell interview recording, 1995 August 10

Date:

August 10, 1995

Creator:

Russell, Erma Hayes

Contributor:

Dixon, Doris

Description:

Name: Erma Hayes Russell; Date of birth: 1919-11-06; Place of birth: Lexington, MS; Occupation(s): educator; teacher; Head Start coordinator; Residence: Tchula, MS

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-0783
RL00170-CS-0784
18039214-5f97-44d2-80a9-f05b9b0caa67
behindtheveil
661b400a-9a17-4f1a-aef2-33007adc1878
ark:/87924/r4h999n8b
661b400a-9a17-4f1a-aef2-33007adc1878

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https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4h999n8b

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Erma Russell interview recording, 1995 August 10

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1. Erma Russell administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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