Harry Simons interview recording, 1995 August 04

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Laurie Green	Harry Mae Simmons on August 4th, 1995. I wanted to start out by asking you some questions about your family. Now were you born in—	0:01
Harry Mae Simons	I was born right in this house, Memphis, Tennessee, [indistinct 00:00:17], 1909.	0:14
Laurie Green	Okay. And tell me about your family. I understand you have a number of sisters.	0:23
Harry Mae Simons	Yes, I have four sisters, there were five of us, four sisters, mother, father, grandmother, grandfather lived [indistinct 00:00:36] in the house with us.	0:29
Laurie Green	And which grandparents lived here?	0:39
Harry Mae Simons	My mother's mother and father, it was their house. They built the house. Father and grandfather.	0:41
Laurie Green	Now tell me, what were your grandparents names?	0:52
Harry Mae Simons	John Wheat Jones and Florence Terry Jones. They had two children. A boy and a girl. Clarence David Jones and Patty Faye Jones, who was my mother.	0:55
Laurie Green	And now you were telling me that your grandfather was a minister?	1:10
Harry Mae Simons	One grandfather was a minister, that's my father's father. And that the other grandfather, my mother's father was a fireman at the courthouse. Who came in off the ship, fireman on the ship, into being fireman at the courthouse, when the courthouse was built.	1:13
Laurie Green	Oh, okay. So your grandfather worked on a river boat?	1:33
Harry Mae Simons	Yes, prior to coming it.	1:36
Laurie Green	On the Mississippi?	1:36
Harry Mae Simons	Yes. On the Mississippi River.	1:37
Laurie Green	Huh? Now do you happen to know.	1:40
Harry Mae Simons	He's originally from Louisiana. He worked on the boat [indistinct 00:01:49], I guess was promotion when he came to Memphis, be a fireman at the courthouse, he'd [indistinct 00:02:00].	1:43
Laurie Green	Let me stop this for minute. Okay. Yeah. Tell me about your grandfather who was a minister. Where is he from?	2:01
Harry Mae Simons	My grandfather who was a minister from Texas who was born and bred in Texas. The place in Texas, I have forgotten, I can look it up. I have it and I will look it up later to give it to you. But he came from Texas and his Indian, you could look at him and tell that he was not a full-blooded Indian but part Indian. He grew up to be a minister. That one grandfather that came from Texas, that's my Simmon's granddaddy. The Jones granddaddy, my mother's father was a fireman who came from Louisiana and was one of the first fire persons in the Memphis City Courthouse when they built it.	2:08
Laurie Green	And what church did your grandfather from Texas, what church was he from—	3:15
Harry Mae Simons	The Texas preacher came from the Methodist Episcopal Church. Colored Methodist Episcopal Church. That's what it was, a CME. It was called CME Church. And they still have the CME Church.	3:17
Laurie Green	Okay. And what do you remember that you grew up with your grandparents?	3:38
Harry Mae Simons	Yes, I can.	3:42
Laurie Green	What do you remember about them?	3:42
Harry Mae Simons	Well, I thought they both good looking. I remember that. You know how children are. I thought that they were both handsome fellows. One was fair and the other was beautiful Indian brown. I thought they were the best looking men I had ever seen. But now as I think back, they were about the only men I had seen. So they had to be, I had to have that kind of thought. But I had a happy childhood. My grandparents were very kind to us and we loved them dearly. Equally with our mother and father, we were brought up like that.	3:45
Laurie Green	Now remind me what year you were born.	4:26
Harry Mae Simons	I was born in 1909.	4:29
Laurie Green	Okay. And tell me about the neighborhood where you grew up.	4:31
Harry Mae Simons	I grew up right here where you are.	4:37
Laurie Green	Where's that?	4:39
Harry Mae Simons	Right here at 731 Hastings. I was born here, been here all my life I know, know other place.	4:39
Laurie Green	And is this considered North Memphis?	4:45
Harry Mae Simons	I beg your pardon?	4:47
Laurie Green	Is this neighborhood considered North Memphis?	4:48
Harry Mae Simons	Yes, we are North Memphis, yes.	4:49
Laurie Green	And where did you go to school as a child?	4:54
Harry Mae Simons	I went to school as a child at Grant Elementary School at Auction and Jackson, and I finished that 8th grade there and left there and went to LeMoyne College, Junior College at that time and went to school, LeMoyne High School and College. Junior College I must say because they added the last two years after I was there.	4:55
Laurie Green	Now at that time what high schools were there in the city for Black children?	5:26
Harry Mae Simons	Oh, you had public high schools, but you had Booker Washington High School is one that I know most about. Honestly, I don't know. Schools at that time were not important to me. But I do know that you had public schools, Memphis Public Schools, all over the city.	5:35
Laurie Green	And LeMoyne High School.	6:01
Harry Mae Simons	Oh yeah. LeMoyne was a private school.	6:05
Laurie Green	Private school?	6:10
Harry Mae Simons	Yes. It was a private school where you could go if you had the tuition to pay. Yeah. You paid for your education and you had the nicest people there. But see, I don't know anything about too much about people who are not nice. Everywhere I've been, I've met nice people, enjoy living. So you had public schools and you had this one private school for Blacks back at my time.	6:11
Laurie Green	And what year did you graduate?	6:41
Harry Mae Simons	I graduated from LeMoyne College in 1932.	6:43
Laurie Green	You were mentioning to me before that this was the first.	6:54
Harry Mae Simons	That was the first college class. I finished in the first college class. They had had a elementary school at LeMoyne and they went on through from the elementary school on to the high school. And then from the high school you went to the college, you could go all the way through.	6:57
Laurie Green	And what was your degree in?	7:16
Harry Mae Simons	My degree was a Bachelor of college degree in English.	7:23
Laurie Green	And what did you do after you graduated?	7:25
Harry Mae Simons	Well, I tried to keep from going to work. I didn't want to go to work.	7:35
Laurie Green	Why was that?	7:36
Harry Mae Simons	Why was that? I don't know. I thought, I just thought I wasn't supposed to work at the time I finished school and, it was a long time before I had made up my mind that I would go to work, but my parents were able to take care of me and they just took care of me and nobody complained. So I didn't complain and I didn't start to work. I finished college in 1932, but I did not start to work starting until 1944.	7:44
Laurie Green	Oh wow.	8:07
Harry Mae Simons	And nobody had to tell me to go to work at that time when I had decided, I guess I had grown older and I had decided that there was some things that I wanted to do for myself and for my family. Give gifts and things like that, probably that prompted me. I couldn't tell you what prompted me to go to work. Be honest. I know work has never been in my vocabulary, had never entered my vocabulary.	8:11
Laurie Green	So what were you involved with in those 12 years?	8:36
Harry Mae Simons	That I was not working?	8:40
Laurie Green	Yeah.	8:42
Harry Mae Simons	At church. I went to the church. I was always very active in the church. My grandfather was a Methodist minister, one of my grandfathers. And I was very active in the church. The church appealed to me. So I did a lot of volunteer work as if I didn't have to work I suppose. I don't know.	8:45
Laurie Green	What kind of volunteer work were you involved with? [indistinct 00:09:03].	9:00
Harry Mae Simons	Well I had a children—yeah, I had a children's choir. I taught Sunday school. I did anything they wanted done at the church. Just a enjoyed it and I enjoyed the people there at the church.	9:05
Laurie Green	Do you remember, this is in the middle of the Depression. Do you remember what kinds of things your church did to help people?	9:19
Harry Mae Simons	The Depression? I don't remember. They tell me about the Depression. If there was a Depression, I didn't see it growing up.	9:27
Laurie Green	Did your church, was your church involved in?	9:34
Harry Mae Simons	My church was involved in helping everybody and they still are doing the same thing that they did when I was a child. Helping everybody, reaching out to the community, providing space for all sorts of programs and opportunities for people to enjoy their Christian life. So the church has always been a part of my life, I suppose because my grandfather was a minister, one of my grandfathers was a minister. And I have always been interested in the church. I took an active part, whatever they wanted me to do, I did it and had a good time doing it. But I've always had a good time doing whatever I did. So the church was my first entree into mixing and working with people. Made a big difference.	9:37
Laurie Green	What were some of the social programs that they had?	10:27
Harry Mae Simons	Well they had, at Collins, we had always had auxiliaries. Auxiliaries was the extensions of our church and we had people who were members of the auxiliary. You know the Methodist church, I guess all Methodist churches are alike, you have your steward board, you have your church officers, you have your ladies auxiliaries, the people, I don't know why they separated the ladies from the men. The men had their activities and ladies had their activities. The men were responsible for getting the money in, to keep the church operating. And the ladies were supposed to sort of be the decoration, add to the church, whatever if needed. If the men did not know how to do it, you did it yourself. So it was just like a home.	10:30
Harry Mae Simons	In those days, everybody seemed to enjoy everybody else with whom they came in contact. You chose your friends, you and your relatives and friends chose your other friends. And then most of the time, most people who joined churches were friends. Friends of these people, other people who joined the church, you went with your own group. So as I said, 'cause everybody in college, that my folks were good friends and we were all, everybody there. We just loved everybody. We knew everybody there. We grew up with everybody there. It was just leaving our home to go to our church home, our religious home when we go on Sundays and through the week. And the fellowship has always been good.	11:21
Harry Mae Simons	Well I've been there now all my life. I'm 86 and I've never regretted that move. That's the only church I've ever joined. Only church I've ever been in. And then my heritage, my grandfather who was a minister, happen to have been one of the ministers of Collins also. And that made the church dear to me and dear to us. So I just had a wonderful life in the church, outside of the church, anywhere I went. Meaning the people have been good all along.	12:10
Laurie Green	Well. Do you remember much about in Memphis during the '30s, whether Black people in the community around here had a difficult time?	12:44
Harry Mae Simons	I never had a difficult time. We never had a difficult time because we paid no attention. We didn't need the help of Whites, we didn't cater to the Whites, we didn't have to work with Whites at that time. So we were not bother with the Whites and their idiosyncrasies at all. We were taught that we had our friends, we stayed with our friends most of the time. We didn't bother about that other. When we wanted to go somewhere, we just went.	13:01
Harry Mae Simons	And a lot of those places where they didn't want you, we didn't want to go where nobody wanted us. We didn't bother about it. So as far as I was concerned, Whites didn't matter to me at all. I didn't thought of it at all. And they never gave us any trouble. And that that's the way the group with the group that I associated and nobody bothered about White. We knew things were wrong, and we decided as we grew up that we were going to work to help change that. And we did. So we knew that that was ignorance on their part. So why would we be as ignorant as they are? So we didn't bother about that.	13:32
Laurie Green	What were some of the ideas, then, that you and your friends had about how you wanted to work to change things?	14:13
Harry Mae Simons	Well really now when you're growing up, if you've got a stable home and your parents provide you with all those ideas and ideals that are necessary to be hey, you don't worry about the other fella and hit idiosyncrasies, and we never did worry about. My grandfather taught us that we were as good as anybody and we believed it and we lived that way and we weren't bothered. And the Whites that we came in contact with were only the grocery store man. If you had to, you had—we had a White doctor in our family that came to us and we didn't know that. He didn't show any difference, whatever for years.	14:19
Harry Mae Simons	I think about him now, Dr. Hamm who lived down on Jackson Avenue, not too far from. As long as I can remember, he was our doctor. So, I didn't—I don't know. I've never bothered about what the other fellow thought, whether he'd be Black or White. It didn't matter to me. I knew that I was one of God's people and things were going to work out for me and they have always done and that's the way I have lived. I've had no malice in my heart for anybody, Black or White. And I got along with everybody that I came in contact with.	15:07
Harry Mae Simons	And you had people in the White group at the time who were kind, who were kindly disposed and who were Christians and they knew how to act. I remember when I was a little girl, the grocery store fellow we shopped with right around on the corner, the Konoski family. And we never saw any difference in the Konoski family and our family. So each person has to set his own, I think perspective, and then live with it and do unto others as you have him do unto you. And if the other fellas are fool, let him be. That's my philosophy. It's always been.	15:47
Laurie Green	Now, what made you decide to go into teaching in the 1940s?	16:38
Harry Mae Simons	Well, I think my father's death made me go into teaching.	16:43
Laurie Green	Oh, what year did your father die?	16:46
Harry Mae Simons	My father died prior to my going into teaching. And I think his death led me to realize that now your daddy is dead. He's looked after you all these years, so it's time for you to get you a job. You're prepared, go on, get your job, then tell and be of some service to your family. So I woke up one day and I think—huh?	16:48
Laurie Green	What did your father do?	17:10
Harry Mae Simons	My father was a letter carrier.	17:12
Laurie Green	Now had your father always worked as the letter carrier?	17:22
Harry Mae Simons	Always. It's the only job that—	17:24
Laurie Green	Did they have a union back then? I'm just curious.	17:26
Harry Mae Simons	I really don't know to be honest because I was just a child. I really don't know. I don't know whether they had a union or not. I know they were all friends. It seemed that they were all friends. They had a letter carriers organization and of course they were Black. I guess they were Black and Whites, I don't know. But I remember the Black letter carriers organization. I'm sure they had a White carrier. 'Cause in those days the Blacks were segregated, and the Whites were segregated too. They didn't know it, 'cause they weren't being affiliated with anybody else but themselves. And we weren't either. So it all depends on how you look at it, whether you were segregated or not. Your friends were all Black, their friends were all Black. Nobody bothered about each other. I know I didn't. I never knew. I never had.	17:28
Laurie Green	So when you decided to become a teacher, did you have to get some more education to do that?	18:27
Harry Mae Simons	No ma'am.	18:33
Laurie Green	You just went and got a job right away?	18:33
Harry Mae Simons	Right. I applied and got a job immediately.	18:36
Laurie Green	And where did you work?	18:39
Harry Mae Simons	I worked at LaRose Elementary School, my first job.	18:40
Laurie Green	And what year was that?	18:46
Harry Mae Simons	Let me see if a long time ago. 19—I finished school in 1932. I don't think I started working till 1944. So that, I was deciding I guess all that time what I was going to do. But in 1944 I started working and I was given a job. I'll never forget the superintendent at that time, Superintendent Ernie Small, had a nice reputation as far as we were concerned, the superintendent of the school, city school. And I don't know what made me, I think I had been out of work, I hadn't started working and I finished school in 1932. So I guess I don't know whether my parents told me it was time to go to work or whether I just decided it was time to go to work myself. Next thing I do, I had gone to apply for a job in 1944.	18:48
Laurie Green	I'm just curious, since that was in the middle of World War II, what it was—Whether that had any effect on you or what it was like in Memphis during the war?	19:53
Harry Mae Simons	No, I don't think—I had a wonderful life all up to this point now. I've never, never been disturbed about anything, to tell you the truth, far if I was concerned. I don't know, maybe other people, things bother other people. But I had a large family. We had a large family, we loved each other. And then we had a lot of friends, we had our own friends, we done bother about all that other stuff. We knew it was happening. And then I met a lot of White, we met a lot of White friends, a lot of nice people who were nice all along. So some Whites were low down, I presume. I've read about things that have happened, but all Whites were not because my father and grandfather had a lot of White friends who were very, very nice. So it all depends on how you feel I guess. And to be honest, we never wanted to be bothered with them anyway. We had our own friends. We were just real back then.	20:03
Laurie Green	Was your church involved with any efforts for the war? Like war bonds or other programs for the war?	21:07
Harry Mae Simons	Oh yes, used to sell, used to do everything. The church, you see, the church used to do, used to be the leader in your activities. The church always stood out as place where this is where you can get all the solace, the everything that you need to live a good Christian life. Now what good was the Bible, if the preacher's going to preach what's in the Bible and then have a dissenting tone? I think that where we went to church, everybody, the things that the older people didn't like, they didn't bother about explaining it to you, but they explained to you how you were supposed to act, how you were supposed to do. And God loved everybody. And that's the way I went along all the time.	21:13
Harry Mae Simons	Now turmoil and all that other stuff, I don't know anything about it to tell the truth because we always had a home, a comfortable home. Intelligent parents who told us the things that were to them, the truth, think that we should participate in, in the way we should feel about our people and what the other fellow does, it scars the other fella. It doesn't scar you except you participate in. So you don't participate in things like that. You just ignore that completely. And I'm a great ignorer. So I think they did well teaching me how to ignore things that I didn't want to be bothered with and I just never bothered them.	22:11
Laurie Green	So when you started teaching, what did you teach?	22:58
Harry Mae Simons	I taught the—well see what grade did I know in first? I think I taught the 7th and 8th grade first they had what they called the changed classes. Now that I thought that was thrill. I enjoyed changing of class. They all—LaRose wasn't a large elementary school and I taught to 7th and 8th grade and children passed class. That gave you a chance to meet all the children that went there because you only taught one subject at that time.	23:02
Laurie Green	And you taught English?	23:40
Harry Mae Simons	Huh?	23:41
Laurie Green	Did you teach English? Did you teach English?	23:41
Harry Mae Simons	No, I did not teach English.	23:44
Laurie Green	Oh.	23:48
Harry Mae Simons	You may think I did but I did not teach English.	23:48
Laurie Green	What did you teach English?	23:48
Harry Mae Simons	I taught phy ed.	23:49
Laurie Green	Oh.	23:53
Harry Mae Simons	And I never did happen to teach English. I didn't teach for three years. So I taught three years and was made principal. So that let me skip teaching a whole lot of stuff and a whole lot of. And I enjoyed it.	23:57
Laurie Green	So what year did you become a principal?	24:13
Harry Mae Simons	I became a principal in 1947.	24:16
Laurie Green	Okay.	24:17
Harry Mae Simons	I started working at 1944.	24:21
Laurie Green	And what school were you principal of?	24:23
Harry Mae Simons	I was principal of Magnolia. That was the only school I served the whole time. I served my whole tenure at Magnolia and I stayed there 33 years at Magnolia. I worked 36 years, three years in LaRose and 33 years at Magnolia.	24:27
Laurie Green	Now was it at the time, was it unusual to have women be principals of schools?	24:53
Harry Mae Simons	No, I had friends who were principals and I looked up to those people and I like the way they lived, I like everything about them. And I said, "Well, when I get an opportunity I'm going to apply for a principalship." And I think I stunned everybody when I applied after teaching just three years. Either they thought I was crazy. They said, "Well let's see what is to her." One of those things they had to make. Because I know when I went to see the superintendent, he was astonished. I could tell from his—'cause he always tried to hide his feelings. Most people hide their feelings, true feelings. He tried to hide his feelings. He was surprised. But he didn't want me to know he was surprised that I wanted that. I have nerve enough to come up there and ask, probably. I'm looking back now because at that time I thought that was the proper thing to do.	25:01
Harry Mae Simons	So as I look back, I suppose he was surprised, but he had dealt with me, I think, long enough to know that I probably didn't think other people. And so he accepted that difference. And they tell me now I don't talk, I don't act like other people. So I don't know what's wrong with people, but I've had a good time doing whatever I've been doing, because I didn't tell anybody I was going to the superintendent to ask to be promoted. So he asked me a question and I answered his question. He said, "What is it that you would desire to do?" And I said, "I want to be a principal of a school." And he laughed and said, "You just started teaching." But I didn't know the law was that you had to teach at least three years, that was just, I didn't know anything at all about that. So I had taught three years.	26:01
Harry Mae Simons	So I guess he didn't know what to, I look back now and I said I must have been a nut. So I don't know. And I don't know. And I'm glad that I met him that he was the superintendent. I think everything just, God had just planned that it worked right. Because who else is going to talk to a superintendent? This is all an after thought. After I came home, I was shocked, to myself and I said, "Well maybe I put my foot in my mouth." But at least he knew how I felt. And later I was glad I put my foot in my mouth.	27:12
Harry Mae Simons	I guess he said, this is a queer person and I guess I'm going to see how far she'll go, what's what. Because he didn't change expressions or anything, when he let me sit there and tell him what my plans would be, what I'd like to do. And I told him what I would like to do. I'd like to be principal of a school. And he said, "You just started teaching." I remember that. And I said, "I know, but you don't have to teach all your life to be principal." And from that.	27:53
Laurie Green	Now when you became principal, did you have goals or ideas that you wanted to accomplish as principal when you started out?	28:31
Harry Mae Simons	To be honest with you, I can't sit here and tell you that I had—all I knew I wanted to be a principal of a school and all I knew he was the superintendent of the school. And I had worked three years. And to me when you were young, three year's a long time. Do you know that? I worked three whole years. The children were nice. I had had a wonderful time. I had enjoyed teaching them. They were responsive. They did everything I asked them to do. And right now I love them all. When I see them now, it's just seeing one of my own children, some of us children. I had the first three years and they're still living in Memphis, a lot of them. And I still come in contact with them and I don't know, everybody's just been good. And I've enjoyed the fellowship of so many people and it just was what I thought was right at the time.	28:44
Harry Mae Simons	Now I look back, if he hadn't been a nice person, I don't know what would've happened. But it just happened that I came along, evidently at the right time, the right person was in office, the right people were working because I had no problem with everybody and just went on and all my aspirations, I had stayed out of work. I hadn't worked, I stayed out of school. Let me see, I finished school in 1932, finished college in 1932. It was '40—I believe it was '44 before I decided I wanted to go to work. So I just been a slow decideder I suppose, I don't know. And my mother and father didn't ever press me, didn't push me to do anything because they said I always talked—my ideas were just my ideas, that was it. And I guess Mom and Pop just decided, "Well, no need to try and talk to her. She going to do what she wants to do anyway. She knows what she wants to do and nothing we can tell her can change."	29:41
Laurie Green	What were some of the ideas that you had, that you wanted to do?	30:55
Harry Mae Simons	Well, I wanted to teach school. I wanted to able to give my mother and father gifts. My grandmother was—my people, I wanted to be nice to my people. I wanted to be, my sisters were married and I didn't want to get married.	30:58
Laurie Green	So tell me about that. You were saying something about that before?	31:12
Harry Mae Simons	Well no, I never wanted to get married. No, I never wanted to get married. That wasn't in my priorities at all, to get married. And so something could be wrong with me, I don't know. But I know I just was made, I just didn't want to get married. I never thought about getting married. I had a nice time. I enjoyed myself. I enjoyed fellowship of everybody with who I came in contact. Some things I had decided I wanted to do it.	31:21
Laurie Green	You were saying to me before that when your older sister had a child, you had decided you didn't?	31:44
Harry Mae Simons	You didn't. Oh no. When I saw the first child I saw being gone, my sister's child. I made up my mind then that there would be no marriage and there would be no children.	31:49
Laurie Green	And why was that?	31:57
Harry Mae Simons	Because she go through all that pain. I wouldn't do that. And I didn't want to do that. No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm still that way because I think the time has passed now. But.	31:58
Laurie Green	It sounded like you had some boyfriends?	32:14
Harry Mae Simons	Oh yeah, I had boyfriends, enjoyed. I enjoyed boyfriends. Had a lot of fun in life. Had a lot of fun. But it wasn't serious fun. Enjoyed living. I enjoyed everybody I met and I loved everybody else's child. But I just didn't wanted one myself. I saw my sister have her first child. I decided then my oldest sister had her first child. I decided then there wouldn't be any children for me. And I made up my mind then. And that stayed that way. And I have never regretted. God, I tell you.	32:16
Laurie Green	Looks like you have a lot of nieces.	32:54
Harry Mae Simons	I have a lot of nieces and nephews. I have—the sisters punished enough children to me, four sisters, all of them had children. They had nice families. And right now I'm so happy they had those families because those—their families are keeping me happy right now because suppose they didn't have children too, like I did. I look back now, it was a mistake. I'm sure it was a mistake if I wanted any children. But that's all over now. And I can see, and I don't know I why I made up my mind like that. But when I make up my mind, unfortunately, good or bad. That's it. Those kind of things, didn't get my mind on that.	32:58
Laurie Green	I'd be interested in your impressions about couple things I've been reading, I'm not from Memphis and I've been reading a lot about the reign of Mr. Crump and I am interested in what your impressions are about what changed, what it was like with Crump here and what changed if anything changed in people's lives in Memphis this after [indistinct 00:34:26]?	33:55
Harry Mae Simons	All right now, I don't like to talk about Mr. Crump because Mr. Crump was very, very friendly with my grandfather.	34:25
Laurie Green	Oh.	34:32
Harry Mae Simons	They were friends. He was very kind to my grandfather. So I'm kindly disposed of Mr. Crump in spite of whatever they say because I don't know anything about what they say. I know the relationship that he had with my granddaddy and it was always good. And I was always been taught that whoever is your friend, he's not your friend if you can pick him all the pieces. If he's your friend, he's your friend regardless, because we are all made differently.	34:33
Harry Mae Simons	So I really don't know. I don't know the circumstances and I was too young, I guess at the time, to even consider, even think about it. I did not come in contact with some of the things that a lot of my people came in contact with, Blacks came in contact with. I didn't come into contact with it. I didn't pay any attention to it. It didn't bother me. I was just brought up like that. And if you were a friend to anybody in my family, then I looked on you as a friend of mine also. And I would do nothing or say nothing to make it unpleasant for you. And I haven't been made unpleasant by any Whites at all. So I don't know firsthand actually how people were treated because I've always been treated respectfully all the time.	35:05
Laurie Green	And did your family vote?	35:55
Harry Mae Simons	Huh?	35:56
Laurie Green	Did your family vote?	35:56
Harry Mae Simons	My family voted all the time. Yes. Yes. Yes, indeed.	35:57
Laurie Green	I recall reading that after the war there was some people that were involved with getting more voting rights for Black people in Memphis. Do you recall anything about that?	36:07
Harry Mae Simons	No, I don't. My parents shielded us from all of that ugly, I don't know anything about the ugly except what I read in the paper after, when I started reading. Then I didn't ever say anything about the ugly because my mother and father would not have accepted it, so I did not. My father, I told you my grandfather was a minister. He act actually was a minister. He didn't—how can you love and act in such ways that you don't love, you love this and you don't love that. You know? Whether you just don't say anything even. And then with your, I never, I don't know. I really don't understand how, 'cause I didn't sit in the back of the street car or anything like that, 'cause we had transportation.	36:21
Laurie Green	Oh you had a car?	37:17
Harry Mae Simons	A lot of things that you didn't do yourself, you can't talk about it. You don't know. No, I didn't bother.	37:17
Laurie Green	Did your family have a car when you were growing up?	37:24
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. Tin Lizzie. My uncle.	37:25
Laurie Green	Tin Lizzie (laughs).	37:25
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. My uncle had a Tin Lizzie and I learned to drive when I was a little girl. So you don't take on other, you don't like certain things but you don't have to, your character doesn't have to besmirched with certain things, because you don't have to participate. You don't have to be bothered with those people and you don't have to go looking for trouble. You just don't do that. And I don't know, I try to teach children there's no need of you being you: "did this person do anything to you?"	37:38
Harry Mae Simons	Now if it's the system, the system has been wrong. I don't think that I like everything that has happened. I don't like everything that's happened. But I didn't stoop to being bothered with what was happening, 'cause I didn't bother them. And you are what you decide to be, anyway. And there are many things that have made me angry. I've read about a lot of things that made me angry. But I never let it get too close to me to make me ugly. And you can get angry and you don't have to be ugly.	38:20
Laurie Green	What are some of the things that was angry?	39:02
Harry Mae Simons	Well, I knew it was wrong the way Blacks were being treated by Whites. What difference does it make if you sit in the second seat on a street car, or the back seat, nothing's going to rub off. The White's not going to rub off, neither is the Black. So I thought all those things are foolish. It's foolish and a lot of things that they did was foolish. All that kind of thing. And if you have to act that way to believe that you are superior, then you are the fool. You see? Because that didn't have thing to do with what you are, you are, you still. In the minds of people. You are the same dog now that you were then. And nobody bothered about it. You see. And the Blacks not going to rub off. And nobody wants to be the White if he's not—everybody's satisfied with himself. I think they're so foolish.	39:04
Laurie Green	So I know that a lot of the efforts of people could change things took place around schooling—	40:08
Harry Mae Simons	Yes. Right.	40:13
Laurie Green	—education, and whatever recollections you have about that, I'd be interested in knowing.	40:14
Harry Mae Simons	Well I went to a school, we went to LeMoyne and we had White teachers in LeMoyne. White and Black teachers. We had them all along. LeMoyne had started off with all White teachers and we had Black students and we didn't, that was no—'course, they were ostracized, the faculty, I understand from reading, that the faculty was ostracized by the Whites in Memphis, but it didn't matter to them, 'cause they kept on teaching the Blacks. So to me all of that foolishness, it's just foolishness, ignorance, that's all it is. And color, to me, doesn't mean a thing, really.	40:23
Laurie Green	Now, at what point did people in Memphis begin to try to change the segregated school system?	41:10
Harry Mae Simons	I really don't know. Now at LeMoyne, you had White teachers and Black students. They came here from other parts of the country to teach.	41:23
Laurie Green	Oh really?	41:38
Harry Mae Simons	You—long years ago, you had White teachers. Now I'm trying to think of what they were called. They weren't missionaries, they were congregationalists, I guess. I know there was a congregational church that I believe, but I'm not too up on who started who and who changed what. I never bothered about that I knew what I was going to do. And it started right here in the house with my mother and father and grandfather and grandmother. And we knew our attitudes were shaped right here in this house. Not what we read in the paper. And we always had the paper. Not what we read in books, we always read, we always had books. And we knew exactly what was going on, but we didn't let it touch us.	41:38
Harry Mae Simons	And I think when people cannot let ugly touch 'em, I think that they'll have a happier life. So many things are wrong and you'll never straighten everything out that's wrong. So why not try to find a place in between and do what you think is right towards the other person. And that person you don't deal with anybody who doesn't do unto you, as you would have them do unto them. I don't.	42:20
Harry Mae Simons	So I think that it all depends on the person. You can be a little person or a big person. You can be big enough to accept all of God's children. Or you can be little and narrow enough to think that you are capable of deciding that this is the best aspect. Just go ahead on, do what you thinks the best thing to do in a situation like that. So then you grow up without any meanness in your heart. And that's where living on begins with you, your life is what you make it. And—	42:54
Laurie Green	Can I ask you a question. When the 1954 school, the segregation decision took place, I know that before that there were a lot of efforts to equalize salaries of Black and White teachers and since you were involved in education, what was your impression when that decision happened?	43:33
Harry Mae Simons	Well.	44:04
Laurie Green	Was Thurgood Marshall, for instance, someone that you were really admiring of?	44:05
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. Well I really don't know. Well see when you are young and anyway you get 86 years old to go back to when you were young, sometimes things are hazy, you know? Got to try to think them through.	44:08
Laurie Green	Right. Do you remember where you were when you heard about that decision?	44:25
Harry Mae Simons	I was right here because I've been here all my life. I was born right here. So I was right here. Right here in Memphis, right here in this house. So I've read all about those things that happen and each time you get a breakthrough. But you see America has been wrong for a long, long time. And by the time I came along it was really wrong, so I couldn't straighten out. People who came along that time could. But it took whatever they did to get sort of straight. Now you never straighten out a heart. You can never straighten out heart. So you don't even need to worry about, it's not straight yet, probably. 'Cause so many people feel the same way now that they felt long years ago. But most of the rats are dead that were living a long time ago, when all that stuff came along. So we got a whole new Black living. And you don't do, go back on that dwell. Dwell on that thing, that ugly thing that happened. My mother told us—	44:30
Laurie Green	I'm sorry. I'm sorry to keep, I'm sorry to keep bringing them up. To me the, that 1954 decision was a real milestone.	45:32
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. But—	45:42
Laurie Green	I just, since I wasn't born at the time, I certainly wasn't in Memphis and since you were in the principal in a school, I'm just real curious about did people celebrate? Did it have, how people at your school—	45:43
Harry Mae Simons	No we didn't. People like me didn't even bother about it, we didn't even bother about it. A child was a child. I didn't bother about it. It didn't matter to me. And they had to. Because they didn't even touch me. But when these little children came to school—	45:58

Laurie Green	Okay. You had just mentioned—	0:03
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. When Whites, when they—	0:07
Laurie Green	—when White students started coming. Were there White students in your school?	0:07
Harry Mae Simons	Yes. We had White students to come to Magnolia School.	0:09
Laurie Green	And when did that start?	0:12
Harry Mae Simons	Huh?	0:13
Laurie Green	Do you remember about what year that started?	0:14
Harry Mae Simons	No. I don't. That was so unimportant to me. I don't remember really. But—	0:17
Laurie Green	You were saying you felt sorry for them?	0:23
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. I felt sorry for those Whites who came to Black schools, because in many Black families and many families all, okay? Each group hated each other. I don't think any White was foolish enough to think that the Blacks loved them at that time. And I know no Blacks were bothered about loving them. And I know the Blacks knew how the Whites felt. But then the thing the school had to do was talk to the children, both Black and White, and let them know how you felt, your children, how you felt, and let them know that everything that adults do is not right. And you make up your own mind. You may make your own decisions now. Blacks not going to rub off on you and Whites not going to rub off on you. So don't bother about it.	0:24
Harry Mae Simons	Find yourself and be true to yourself and do unto others as you would have them do unto you and you have no trouble whatever. And that's what we told our children. I know that's what I told mine. In my classroom I didn't have too many, because the little Whites were afraid to come. And you knew they were afraid. But gradually, most Christian parents sent their children to—poor Christian sent their children. They didn't have money to send them anywhere else. So if this was their school district they sent, and everybody, we were all cautioned. We cautioned each other to be as kind to them as we were to ours. The children were not responsible for what had gone on. The adults were responsible. So you'd be foolish to try to take it out on a child when he came, and the kids, after they'd been there a while, they felt perfectly safe and satisfied.	1:25
Harry Mae Simons	And we went along. And it could have happened long years ago, you see, because kids hadn't been living long enough to be so evil. But they knew that evil was right there, because some of them would tell you, say, "My grandma and grandpa, they don't like this. They didn't like that at all." So where your grandma and grandpa at home and you hid, so you act like you supposed to act. When you go home, you do like your grandma or grandpa wants you to. Now that was my advice. I didn't bother about that, because kids will tell everything that goes on at home. Did you know that when they get out the book bag, they tell. I don't care what Mama said, what Daddy said, they going to tell it or what they did. They'll even tell you when the daddy and mama have a fight or something. They tell everything. Our children don't do that. They will tell that family out of nowhere.	2:25
Harry Mae Simons	And I managed to say anything happens in all houses. But I found out that there's no difference. Really no difference. And after a while they'll come. But religion means nothing to you if you cannot unto others, if you'd like to have others do unto you. That's what I told my children. So I don't want to hear what anybody said. You just go on, make up your own mind. I'm making up my mind. But we are going to do unto others as we would like to have others do unto us. And when we do that, we have no problem whatever. And you don't. Some kids understand and they thinking we didn't have any problems at all in our school. Where we were, we didn't have any problems.	3:14
Laurie Green	Were there problems in any of the other schools?	4:01
Harry Mae Simons	I don't notice. I don't know. They don't tell everything. So I don't know. I just know where I was. And we didn't get too many Whites. We got the Whites who were Christian. They sent their children when they first—the riffraff didn't come because they would've been beaten to a pulp and they knew it, if they'd come to a Black school and come up with some mess. So we didn't have any trouble. Oh, no trouble with that at all. I think the parents understood. And we didn't get the riffraff at all. We got nice little kids, very nice little children. And they were sweet little children. And right now, if they see you, they're so happy to see you, the one and all of that.	4:04
Harry Mae Simons	But we knew we were there to teach. And we had a loving principal, a very fine man. I had known him all as long as I could remember. I had known Professor Brinkley. His name was John Lewis Brinkley. He didn't live too long.	4:50
Laurie Green	Now what was his position?	5:09
Harry Mae Simons	John Lewis Brinkley, principal in LaRose.	5:12
Laurie Green	Oh. Uh-huh.	5:17
Harry Mae Simons	And he was a religious person, but a very peculiar person, but a very nice person. And so many things that he said. Probably I liked him because a lot of times he was saying about same thing I was saying. That means a whole lot who you liked and who you don't like. But at Magnolia we had a wonderful group of teachers. And I'm going to show you pictures of some of our teachers. We get to have a get-together every now and then. And our retired teacher's daughter, we have a nice fellowship that had a nice get-together. We were the faculty of Magnolia School of about—let's see, we were all there. All the Black faculty was there at this child's. And we'd have occasions like that where they have get-togethers and they'll send you a little note say, "I'm going to pick you up at such and such a time."	5:19
Harry Mae Simons	I don't drive any more sometime. I stopped driving at 86. I thought it was time then. And I got a little note that said, "I want you to come out to my house a time and I'm going to pick you up and take you back because I know you're not driving." So it makes it so nice. Everybody's just so nice. Kids that I have taught, kids that came to school when I was principal, and I was principal at one school, oh, 33 years. So I made a lot of friends out there.	6:38
Laurie Green	What are some of the associations that you were involved with?	7:03
Harry Mae Simons	Well, I'll tell you. The teachers' group, I worked with them. Members of Shelby County Teachers Association. Because I was in every little Baptist the Church had at college chapel Church, whatever College Chapel did I was a part of and have been for the years.	7:08
Harry Mae Simons	As I said, I made a lot of friends along the way, and people have been mighty good to me along the way. And as I told you, Justin, last Thursday's paper, there's a writeup and I had a paper. I put it in a safe place. But usually when I put things in a safe place, they don't come up until later. I don't know where the safe place is now, but I'd like to show it to you. Now I've been away from Magnolia School since 1940. No. 1980 is when I retired, 1980. And to think that kindnesses are still being extended in 1995 from something that I did way back there in 1940, from anytime from 1947 on up to this point. That makes me know that you don't have to talk about it. If you are the kind of person that you ought to be, you're going to be remembered. And you've forgotten about maybe those people who are remembering you.	7:39
Harry Mae Simons	Now, when I was told to come over to, you know what? I was going through the Park Commission before nobody told me, but I knew I had a brother-in-law who worked for the Park Commission. But I said, Sam's been dead so long. I don't think it's nobody there living that knew Sam. So I don't know what, but I went there. And to tell you the truth, I had been away from Magnolia School so long, and the boy that was sponsoring this thing was a grown man. He is working for the Park Commission, but he went to Magnolia School and he remembered me. And this honor was given to me because those two schoolboys out there and that neighborhood out there where I worked had signed petitions, and I didn't know anything about it until I got there, to do this for me, to name that place out there, community center for me.	8:49
Harry Mae Simons	Well, you see, whatever you do comes back to you a long, long time. Probably I've forgotten the people who out there. But, say, if they still remember me as having done something worthwhile, it really fits something, it does something to me, and I just get, you see a plaque around all the time. I'm always getting something from somewhere, appreciation for this and that, and I did it so long ago I've forgotten it. Yeah. But I'm still trying to do as best I can as I go along. So I just go in and smile and accept it and go on.	9:50
Laurie Green	Now let me ask you something a little bit different. Your niece mentioned to me that you were a friend of Roberta Church?	10:30
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah.	10:39
Laurie Green	And I just was interested in some of—it sounds like some of you have a network of people, some of whom are well-known people from Memphis. And if you would like to just comment on some of the people that are—	10:40
Harry Mae Simons	Well, yes. Roberta—	10:54
Laurie Green	—close to you in your life.	10:54
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. Roberta and I have been friends through the years. She's along with mine. She's much younger than—she was much younger than I am, I would think. I don't have no idea. She and my sisters—I had those twin sisters that I told you about. Well, they grew up. They were in the same class. They were in the same school together. They were friends. But my mother and my father were very good friends of her daddy, Bob Church and his sister. Uh-huh. And Roberta and I have been, because I'm friends with everybody. I don't have sister but the friends I had. Roberta just died recently.	10:57
Laurie Green	Yeah.	11:40
Harry Mae Simons	Uh-huh. Because we were in the same club, Phillis Wheatley Club, together. I have a picture on here, but that's somewhere.	11:40
Laurie Green	What did the Phillis Wheatley Club do?	11:50
Harry Mae Simons	Huh? The Phillis Wheatley Club?	11:53
Laurie Green	Just tell me about the Phillis Wheatley Club.	11:54
Harry Mae Simons	Oh, it was just a social club that we had that we—well, we wanted to stay together. That was the whole thing. And so we joined this, came into this Phillis Wheatley Club, and we patterned after tried to pattern it after Phillis Wheatley's Life. We read her life. We tried. We thought we were doing like Phillis Wheatley used to do. We thought that. We may not have been, but we thought that. And we enjoyed what we had read about Phillis Wheatley and all that kind of thing. Yeah.	11:54
Laurie Green	Did you actually found this club?	12:29
Harry Mae Simons	No. I didn't.	12:29
Laurie Green	It was going on?	12:29
Harry Mae Simons	It was going on. It's been going on a long time. Uh-huh. And Roberta went to Lamar. And I went to Lamar also. I was older than Roberta. Roberta was a long one. My sister's a twin, the baby girls. And they were friends and I became friends with her, and we joined the Phillis Wheatley Club. We remember Phillis Wheatley Club. A group of people that just thought a whole lot of each other together. That's all.	12:33
Laurie Green	Now, she was really important with the Republican Party?	12:59
Harry Mae Simons	Yes. She ran with the Republican Party.	13:00
Laurie Green	And Bob?	13:01
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. Bob Church was a staunch Republican. Yeah.	13:02
Laurie Green	Right. And were you involved with that? Was your family?	13:07
Harry Mae Simons	My daddy was, uh-huh. My grandparents all. So, you go the same places, so you just become a friend. As I said, she's younger and she's along with the twins. My little sisters, when I'm five years old, about, I was probably five years old, I've been with Roberta.	13:09
Laurie Green	And have you stayed a Republican? Have you stayed a Republican?	13:31
Harry Mae Simons	Mm-mm.	13:33
Laurie Green	You've changed over to Democrat?	13:33
Harry Mae Simons	Mm-hmm.	13:34
Laurie Green	When was that?	13:37
Harry Mae Simons	I don't remember.	13:37
Laurie Green	I don't remember, a long time ago.	13:37
Harry Mae Simons	Been a long time.	13:37
Laurie Green	Did she stay in Republican, Roberta?	13:37
Harry Mae Simons	Roberta's Republican all her life. My daddy was a Republican all his life.	13:37
Laurie Green	Right.	13:49
Harry Mae Simons	Bob Church.	13:50
Laurie Green	Did you know we Mary Church?	13:54
Harry Mae Simons	Yes. Mary Church Terrell.	13:56
Laurie Green	Oh, what are your recollections of her?	13:58
Harry Mae Simons	Well, yeah. The whole family was a very, very fine family. Very. They were religious and good, they were. They had basic religion. And when you're satisfied with yourself, you're not bothered by this other stuff. They were satisfied with themselves as all people should be.	14:00
Laurie Green	I suspect they were bothered about a few things too.	14:22
Harry Mae Simons	Huh?	14:24
Laurie Green	I suspect they were bothered about a few things too.	14:24
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. I guess so. But maybe satisfied with themselves mostly. And so, you'd just be satisfied with yourselves and go home. That's one of the twins up there with that red—oh, this look just like her, but I don't know where y'all just put her picture. Here she is right here. These are the twins. I told you I had twin sisters. This one died early, and this one died just last year.	14:27
Laurie Green	Oh.	15:05
Harry Mae Simons	My baby sisters.	15:12
Laurie Green	Uh-huh.	15:14
Harry Mae Simons	Who are these guys? Who else's wife?	15:22
Laurie Green	This is Blair Hunt's family here?	15:24
Harry Mae Simons	Yes. His boys. Three boys.	15:28
Laurie Green	Now was he also a good friend of yours?	15:30
Harry Mae Simons	Yes. Very good friend of mine. Very good friend.	15:31
Laurie Green	And why don't you just say a little bit about who he was?	15:35
Harry Mae Simons	Where he was?	15:37
Laurie Green	Yeah.	15:38
Harry Mae Simons	I thought he was the grandest person in the world. I really did. His philosophy to me was akin to mine. We were very good friends through the years. And I thought he was wonderful, really. Yeah.	15:40
Laurie Green	He was the principal at Booker T. Washington?	15:56
Harry Mae Simons	He was the principal of Booker Washington for a long, long time. Yes indeed. He was a friend of mine for a long, long time also. I believe I met him, the first time I met him was when I went over to LaRose School as practice teacher. That's when I first actually met him. And we became friends and stayed friends until he died. So, this is Blair here and his two boys. This is Blair here right here. But I have a better looking picture, a better picture of that, that you can see. Here he is over here sneaking up here behind the file. I thought I had a picture. Yeah. Now, that's just before he died.	15:59
Laurie Green	And what year did he die?	17:01
Harry Mae Simons	I don't know. I have to look that up.	17:01
Laurie Green	Oh, okay. I'm following you around with this tape recorder.	17:07
Harry Mae Simons	Yeah. Come on back here next to me. I'll see you there.	17:08

Item Info

Title:

Harry Simons interview recording, 1995 August 04

Date:

August 4, 1995

Creator:

Simons, Harry Mae

Contributor:

Green, Laurie

Description:

Name: Harry Mae Simons; Date of birth: 1919-01-01; Place of birth: Memphis, TN; Occupation(s): educator; principal; Residence: Memphis, TN
Informant ID: 868; Interviewed by: Laurie Green.

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Harry Simons interview recording, 1995 August 04

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1. Harry Simons administrative file, 1995

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