Barbera Bell interview recording, 1995 July 26

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	[Kisha Turner] By stating your full name	0:02
	and when you were born.	0:04
	[Barbera Bell] Okay.	0:06
	You ready now?	0:09
-	I am, fine.	0:10
-	Oh, okay.
	My name is Barbara Bell,	0:11
	actually Barbara Tyson Williams Bell.	0:14
	I was born May the 14th, 1933 in Norfolk, Virginia.	0:19
-	In Norfolk.	0:28
	And what community were you living in,	0:31
	was your family living in when you were born?	0:36
-	It was called the, either Lindenwood or Huntersville area.	0:39
	I'm not sure exactly which.	0:43
-	Lindenwood.	0:46
-	Lindenwood, Huntersville area.	0:47
	Now they are distinct parts,	0:50
	one Lindenwood and one's Huntersville,	0:52
	but I'm not sure exactly what it was then.	0:55
-	Okay, what are some street names, some boundaries?	0:58
-	Street? Okay.	1:01
	I was born in the Norfolk Community Hospital	1:02
	when it was over that area, and I lived at that time on,	1:05
	when I was born I lived on Barre Street.	1:09
	It's B-A-R-R-E, 1812 I think it was, Barre Street.	1:12
	Yeah, right near a railroad track.	1:19
-	Right near a railroad?	1:22
-	A railroad track.
-	Okay, and who lived in the household with you?	1:24
-	Okay, at that time, my mother was very young.	1:29
	I think she was about 19 or 20, and she and my dad,	1:32
	they had one, there was one other child, my brother,	1:36
	who was about 18 to two years older than me.	1:41
	And that was all that was living in the house at that time,	1:48
	'cause I was the next born.	1:50
	I'm the second born in my family.	1:53
	And when I was nine months old though,	1:57
	I went to live with my godparents who lived,	2:01
	'cause my mother was getting ready to have another baby,	2:05
	who happened to be a boy.	2:08
	And I went over there for, and I lived with them	2:09
	for the rest of my life.	2:15
	I mean for the rest of their lives.	2:17
	Yeah, 'cause at nine months old	2:19
	I went to live with them, and I continued to do so.	2:21
-	And this was in South Carolina?	2:24
-	No, no, no, Norfolk, Virginia.	2:26
-	Oh, still in Norfolk.	2:28
-	This is Norfolk.
	Yeah, I've lived in Norfolk all my life.	2:29
	I just happened to be there working in South-	2:31
	I have an aunt, and my godmother's sister	2:34
	lived there in South Carolina.	2:37
	But Norfolk is, I've worked on quite a number of places,	2:40
	but this has always been my home, Norfolk.	2:43
	And this, I moved to this house	2:46
	when I was about six years old.	2:48
-	This home?	2:51
-	This particular house.
	So this has been my home.	2:52
	As I said, I have moved around quite a bit,	2:55
	but my godmother just died about eight years ago.	2:57
	So this is, and I came back here to be with her	3:01
	about five years before she passed.	3:05
	So that's why I happen to be back here now in my same house.	3:09
-	Okay,	3:13
	so when you moved with your godparents,	3:15
	who lived there with you?	3:20
-	I'm going to see if I can remember.	3:22
	Her mother and father were there,	3:25
	and her two sisters.	3:30
	Of course her husband.	3:33
	I think that's all.	3:38
	I only remember my mother's, because I know	3:40
	that there was nobody else in the family besides that.	3:42
	But I know her mother and father were there,	3:45
	and her two younger sisters, and she and her husband.	3:50
-	What kind of work do your parents do, and your godparents?	3:57
-	Okay, my mother has never really worked.	4:02
	My daddy is a carpenter by trade and at that time he did,	4:07
	I think he did janitorial work.	4:12
	But he was, you know a house painter,	4:15
	and did carpentry by trade.	4:17
-	Okay, and your godparents?	4:21
-	My godfather was a business person, he owned a barber's.	4:25
	Well, first he worked on the railroad though.	4:30
	He worked on the, what was it?	4:32
	Some kind of railroad.	4:34
	Not the C&P, some kind of railroad that we have here,	4:37
	on the coal pier, I remember that.	4:43
	And he had an accident and cut off his fingers, or whatever.	4:45
	So from that time on, I don't remember when,	4:51
	but then he was in the barbering business.	4:54
	I don't know whether he did that at the same time or what,	4:59
	but he had his own business, a barbershop.	5:02
	And then later on he had another business,	5:04
	I think it was a restaurant, along with the barbershop.	5:06
	And my godmother worked in there as a cashier.	5:09
	She never cut hair, but she worked in there,	5:12
	you know doing the finance, the accounting,	5:17
	all of that sort of thing.	5:21
	But she never- she did work at the school later on.	5:23
	She was a substitute clerical worker	5:27
	in the Norfolk Public Schools, after she and my godfather	5:30
	was separated and eventually he died.	5:34
	And so she worked as a substitute clerical worker.	5:37
-	Do you know how your godfather came to buy the store?	5:48
	Had he put away money?	5:51
-	I don't remember, I don't remember.	5:54
	Actually, it may have been that he got a settlement from,	5:58
	you know, that accident.	6:03
	I've never heard of it, never thought about it,	6:04
	but it could be that's what happened,	6:06
	'cause I knew in those times, you know,	6:08
	you really had to know somebody to get money of your own.	6:10
	It could have been a settlement from that.	6:13
	Because I know, I remember the accident very well.	6:16
	I was very- I think I was about three or four,	6:19
	something like that, but I remember that.	6:22
	And it could've been that's how it happened.	6:25
-	What community did your godparents live in,	6:27
	and also where was the barbershop?	6:30
-	They lived right next door, they lived at 1814.	6:32
	That's how it happened-	6:37
-	Okay, okay.
	Because like I said, they lived right next door	6:38
	on Barre Street. And the barbershop was right where,	6:40
	at Brambleton and Church Street.	6:44
	At first it was on one side, but it was-	6:46
	Not right, but almost on the corner	6:49
	of Brambleton and Church Street.	6:51
-	What was the name of the shop?	6:54
-	Standard Barbershop.	6:55
-	Standard Barbershop.
	Standard, mm-hmm.	6:57
-	Did you ever go over?	6:59
-	Always, I used to ride the bus when I was three years old,	7:01
	down to the barber. The bus went right,	7:04
	you know, where Virginia Beach Boulevard	7:07
	used to be called Broad Creek Road.	7:09
	But I rode down there from the time I was three years old	7:10
	to the barbershop just to, you know,	7:14
	to be with him and stay for while, I remember that.	7:16
-	You'd go out there?	7:19
-	Mm-hmm, and I remember getting on the bus then,	7:20
	because the buses were segregated,	7:22
	but they let me sit on the front seat, but I-	7:25
-	Did they?	7:29
-	Mm-hmm.
	I often wondered why I had to sit anywhere else,	7:30
	you know, except where I wanted to sit.	7:33
	But there was never any trouble.	7:35
	When I'd get on the bus, I'd just sit on the front seat	7:36
	and then I'd get off, you know, he would be waiting for me.	7:39
-	Okay, so you'd ride alone?	7:43
-	Oh yeah, every time, mm-hmm.	7:44
	And then you could do that.	7:47
-	Okay, and they didn't bother you about sitting up front?	7:49
-	No, you know, that's just coming back to me now.	7:52
	I don't remember anything being said,	7:54
	but I remember getting on that bus and just, you know.	7:57
	Just, I remember wiggling into the seat	8:02
	and just sitting there til time to get off.	8:04
-	As you got older-	8:06
-	Yeah, as I got older.
-	Did you have to move to the back?	8:09
-	Well, I probably went on, just did it by myself.	8:11
	But you know, knowing.	8:15
	But I do remember one incident	8:16
	when I had to go to the department store,	8:19
	and they had water fountains.	8:26
	Or maybe you don't want to hear that now?	8:28
-	Oh no, go on.	8:30
-	Oh, okay.
	When I was at the, and I would look,	8:31
	and they had Colored by one and White by the other one.	8:33
	So I remember going to both of them and I told,	8:36
	I remember telling my grandma, I said,	8:39
	"Both of this water looks the same, and why do they have	8:40
	one Colored, and why do they have one White?	8:43
	Because they are the very same water," you know, to me.	8:45
	And I wondered why I couldn't drink out, you know,	8:50
	of either one because they were both the same.	8:53
	I remember that, and her trying to-	8:56
	That was my first that I remember	8:57
	her trying to explain it to me.	9:00
	I think she probably just told me just because we couldn't,	9:04
	because they didn't explain too much to you then,	9:06
	because they didn't, I don't think they,	9:10
	they may have understood,	9:12
	but they didn't know how to tell us.	9:14
	I think that was it, but I remember that very well.	9:17
	And I remember also why they used to make you put on,	9:23
	you wanted to try on a hat, you couldn't try on	9:26
	most of anything, but if you want to try on a hat,	9:28
	you had to put on some kind of paper or tissue in your hair,	9:30
	and on your head, so that you know,	9:33
	you wouldn't mess up the hat.	9:36
	And now, we didn't have as much grease	9:39
	on our hair then as we do now, you know?	9:41
	And all the different things that we put on.	9:43
	But I remember that well, and I remember	9:46
	not liking any of this, as even as a child.	9:48
	I remember that I couldn't understand why because,	9:52
	and I always thought that I was, that I mean,	9:57
	that I was just as good as anybody else.	10:02
	But I also had a feeling of inferiority too,	10:04
	that I was beginning to, you know,	10:08
	things are beginning to come back to me.	10:12
	Because I remember at first not wanting,	10:14
	oh, at first I didn't want a little Colored doll.	10:19
	You know, I did not want a Colored doll,	10:23
	'cause everything that you, I wanted White.	10:27
	You know, everybody always wanted a little White this,	10:29
	and then you were trying to make our hair	10:31
	so that we would look like, everything was designed	10:34
	so that you could look like Whites.	10:36
	I remember that now, I don't remember that then.	10:38
	But I remember how I did not want that Black doll at first.	10:41
	And as I grew older, before teenage, you know,	10:48
	I remember that I did.	10:54
	'Cause my grandfather, that's the only thing	10:56
	I remember about my grandfather.	10:58
	But one died before I was born,	11:00
	and the other one died when I was about 17.	11:02
	And I only remember seeing him once, and he gave me that.	11:06
	I still have it upstairs, I still have-	11:10
-	The doll?	11:12
-	The doll, mm-hmm.
	It's a nice little doll.	11:14
	It doesn't do all the things that they did do though,	11:15
	but I kept it through the years because that's,	11:17
	you know, it reminds me of a grandfather that I never knew.	11:19
-	Kind of on the same line, on the same issue.	11:27
	Was there anything special about light skin,	11:31
	if there was a special thing about Whiteness?	11:35
-	Oh yeah, that was even all the way through school.	11:38
	All the kids that were light, were favored.	11:43
	And it wasn't a thing that you really talk about,	11:50
	but that was, even in college,	11:54
	I remember they used to call the kids,	11:57
	"Oh, they're redbones."	11:58
	And then here it was just something about you being lighter,	12:00
	that even being picked for different things,	12:05
	you know, color-wise.	12:09
	And then I remember, of course I was older then,	12:11
	but then you know, that Black was beautiful,	12:15
	even when I was in college.	12:17
	And that, "Black is beautiful, Black is beautiful,"	12:18
	or maybe was afterwards.	12:21
	But then I kept wondering, I said,	12:22
	"Well I am just in between, you know?	12:24
	When is my time coming?"	12:25
	(Barbara and Kisha laughing)	12:27
	So my family, now my mother is very fair,	12:29
	and I have two brothers, now I have four brothers.	12:32
	Two of them are light-skinned,	12:37
	and I have one sister who's light.	12:40
	Oh, I can't get it.	12:42
-	Oh, I was going to take your mic off, if you want to.	12:44
-	Oh I see that one, I've been talking to that one.	12:45
-	Oh, okay.	12:49
-	But yeah, even as I say in my family,	12:52
	it doesn't show up as well here, but you can see, you know,	12:55
	that she is much fairer,	12:58
	and my grandmother was very fair.	13:00
	And I just found out recently, because my mother	13:02
	doesn't talk too much about not being raised with them,	13:06
	I know very little about them.	13:09
	I know more about my godmother's side of the family.	13:11
	And I just found out the other day	13:14
	about different things, and all of them were very fair,	13:17
	almost like red-like.	13:20
	And my grandfather was very fair.	13:22
	So even in my family, I always thought that,	13:24
	that she was so, she's about 10 years younger than me.	13:28
	But until I found out from her that things were,	13:32
	you know like we thought, I thought that she was so happy	13:38
	and this and that and the other,	13:41
	because the way, you know she was fair.	13:42
	And I thought she was cute and whatever,	13:45
	but that didn't seem to get it with her either.	13:47
	So, but at that particular time, there was a difference,	13:49
	quite a bit of difference, as I said, even in families.	13:54
-	Okay, while you were at the barbershop,	13:59
	did you ever overhear any stories about,	14:02
	I don't know, any interesting stories,	14:04
	some of the men or women who came in would say?	14:06
-	Oh, I can't remember.	14:14
	Now most of them were jovial, you know?	14:17
	And most of them, now I shouldn't say that.	14:22
	They were from all over.	14:25
	Like there were some varied people, doctors, lawyers,	14:27
	almost all of them sort of came there,	14:33
	now that you mention it,	14:35
	because Church and Brambleton was the center.	14:36
	And there was a building there that was owned by-	14:40
	well, all of them were owned by White,	14:45
	but there were a lot of professionals	14:46
	in that building on the other side.	14:49
	But I can't remember anything distinctly	14:51
	that I heard anybody talk, you know, specifically about.	14:53
-	Did he have a Black clientele or a White one?	14:58
-	It was Black.	15:00
-	Black, okay.
-	Yeah everything, 'cause in that area everything,	15:01
	the Brambleton, they just call it Brambleton now,	15:04
	but Church and- It's not too much there now,	15:06
	but that whole area I started to say	15:10
	has always been Black, but it hasn't.	15:13
	From before my time, I understand that it was not.	15:16
	But at this particular time it was.	15:19
	The whole area was pretty, Black people hung out.	15:23
	Where we would go in March when they had Easter,	15:26
	you know, like Broadway, where they would go down.	15:29
	Fifth Avenue, where we would all get dressed	15:32
	and we would walk up and down Church Street with our-	15:34
-	Oh really, was that for Easter?	15:37
-	Yeah, I remember that now as a child.	15:38
	We would go and we'd walk up and down,	15:40
	just showing off our new clothes,	15:42
	our spring outfits and whatever.	15:45
	And mostly as a teenager, the boys would be on,	15:46
	you know, one side and we would be on the other.	15:49
	But that was a very, where we all used to congregate.	15:52
	There's a store, drugstore there at Princess,	15:54
	at now is it Virginia Beach, I think, and Church.	15:58
	Sodas, ice cream, we would all go on Sundays after,	16:02
	it's near the Attucks.	16:07
	I know you heard of the Attucks Theater.	16:08
	It was right by the Attucks Theater.	16:10
	We would go to the BTU, Baptist Training Union,	16:14
	and then we would come back and have a soda,	16:19
	you know, ice cream or something.	16:22
	And as I said, we would all sit at the table,	16:24
	really like teenagers, you know, we would wave and do,	16:27
	but we never did get together there at the drug store,	16:30
	but everybody was there, we'd get together, congregate.	16:34
	It's called Wood, Wood Drugs.	16:37
-	Wood.	16:39
-	Woods, I think it's with a S on the end, Woods Drugs.	16:40
-	Okay, what were some of the other	16:43
	kind of hangouts that young Black people-?	16:46
-	That's the only one that I- except the church.	16:49
	We all, at that particular time,	16:51
	I went to First Baptist Church on Bute Street	16:53
	that's still here, near the school.	16:56
	And I remember, but that was the only place,	17:00
	I didn't get to go, my godparents were really,	17:02
	they seemed so strict, because of,	17:07
	we didn't go to a lot of places.	17:10
	But that was one place that we were allowed to go.	17:12
	And most often it was the church, and the home.	17:16
	'Cause see, there were not places open,	17:18
	like McDonald's and Burger King that you could go.	17:21
	There was mostly the home and the church	17:24
	were the center of things at that time.	17:27
	Everything you did, you had to-	17:31
	Only that there was, as we got older,	17:33
	there was a place down in Virginia Beach	17:36
	called Hawkins Inn that we used to go	17:38
	when we were in college.	17:42
	I don't even know where it is now.	17:43
	It's down there somewhere, but it at least had fried chicken	17:45
	and all kinds of stuff.	17:48
	And we used to come home from college,	17:50
	we would go to Hawkins Inn,	17:52
	but I can't remember of any other place that we did.	17:55
	We went- well, no, we didn't go- USO I was thinking,	17:59
	but we only went there for scout meeting.	18:02
	You know, you don't even remember that, do you, USO?	18:05
	What was it, some kind of service,	18:09
	United Service Org, where the soldiers and sailors	18:11
	and service people would go.	18:17
	The only reason we were there was 'cause we did have	18:18
	girl scout meeting there, that's how I remember it	18:22
	when we go to girl scout meeting.	18:26
	But people did, younger people, younger adults,	18:27
	they'd be older than we were, used to go there.	18:31
	And the ones that, the girls especially used to volunteer.	18:34
	And of course the servicemen used to come there,	18:39
	but I can't remember any other place that we used to go.	18:42
	But there were probably some places,	18:48
	but that we weren't allowed to go.	18:48
	Can't remember anything other, mm-mm.	18:52
-	What were kind of the customs about dating,	18:55
	the rules or-	18:58
-	About dating?
-	Yeah, how old did you have to be?	19:00
-	Well, I never did get to date,	19:03
	because I finished high school when I was 15,	19:06
	and I was going to date at 16,	19:10
	I think that's the way it was.	19:13
	I did have a boyfriend though, that he would come by.	19:18
	I think he took me to the movies, whatever.	19:22
	But I'm trying to remember,	19:25
	but I don't think that was in high school.	19:27
	I think that was, maybe it was my last year of high school.	19:29
	But I remember going to the movie on the bus	19:33
	a couple of times, and I think he came over,	19:36
	and they were invited-	19:39
	For instance everything we had, as I said, was at home.	19:40
	So if you had a little, we used to have a lot of picnics	19:43
	and things out in the yard, and even beach parties,	19:47
	because we had several nice beaches then that we could go,	19:50
	so they would be invited to them.	19:55
	But yeah, I had a very short dating period,	19:57
	I mean in high school,	20:04
	because by the time I got ready to date, I was graduating.	20:05
-	Now, how did you graduate from high school?	20:08
-	How?	20:11
-	Did you, I mean so early, did you skip grades?	20:12
-	Yeah, I skipped a couple of grades,	20:14
	and then I went to summer school a couple years,	20:16
	you know, and I advanced that way.	20:20
	'Cause I wasn't the only one that graduated,	20:22
	most of them were closing it on 16,	20:26
	but there were at least three or four I can think of,	20:29
	you know, that they probably graduated.	20:36
	And then we were in, we had another thing,	20:37
	because we were in the class with a lot of veterans,	20:39
	with the veterans that come back.	20:42
	'Cause our first Honor Graduate, I think was a veteran,	20:44
	right First and Third Honor Graduates were veterans,	20:47
	who were almost old enough to be our parents, and one was.	20:50
	One, he wasn't Honor, but one of my friend's fathers	20:55
	graduated in our class, and I don't know, he sure did.	20:59
-	Now, so they actually took classes with you all?	21:03
-	Oh yeah, they took classes.	21:06
-	Did they also offer the night classes, or-?	21:07
-	They didn't have as many night classes then.	21:08
	And when they came back, most of them yeah,	21:12
	they had to get right in with the day students.	21:14
	Yeah, come to think of it.	21:19
	I hadn't thought about that either,	21:20
	but I don't remember the night classes.	21:21
	But they can't- see, our school was just overflowing.	21:23
	Booker T wasn't where it is now,	21:27
	and it was just overcrowded.	21:31
	We used to sit two in a seat.	21:33
-	Really?
-	Mm-hmm, had two in a seat.	21:36
	Of course we didn't mind but,	21:38
	'cause we didn't know anything else.	21:39
	But see everybody up until about 20 years ago,	21:41
	every Black person in this area, maybe 20, 20.	21:44
	Graduated, if you graduated in Norfolk	21:48
	or didn't go to the-	21:50
	You graduated from Booker T Washington, every Black person.	21:51
-	Yeah, most the people I've spoken with.	21:54
-	Yeah right, every one of a certain age,	21:56
	they went to Booker T.	21:58
	And I find it kind of difficult now, I went to graduation.	22:00
	I don't think I've been back to a graduation	22:03
	almost since I graduated, but I went the other day.	22:06
	This little boy invited us and I didn't like it	22:09
	when the White was the first Honor grade,	22:12
	had most of the Honor.	22:17
	I really didn't like seeing them at my school.	22:18
-	So is it 50-50 now, or is it still predominantly Black?	22:21
-	At first it was, at first it was about,	22:27
	and for a while there, there were more Whites	22:28
	because they had all kinds of, in technology there.	22:30
	They had all, even music chair.	22:35
	We never even thought of a music room I mean,	22:37
	where you could go and listen,	22:40
	and do this and whatever, band and all.	22:41
	We had to work out in the chicken coop, as we called it.	22:43
	But they came from all areas,	22:47
	'cause they were busing them then.	22:50
	And they came because as I said, it was a new school	22:52
	and it had a lot to offer, a lot of technological things on.	22:54
	I wasn't here at the time, but when I went back	22:58
	and I saw all these things that they offered them.	23:01
	And then when I saw them up-	23:04
	I really, I didn't know I would feel this strongly about it,	23:06
	but I didn't like seeing them there.	23:08
	That was just last month, it was June then,	23:10
	when I went to the graduation.	23:13
	And I guess maybe I could see sort of what they felt,	23:17
	but I didn't feel that way,	23:20
	I don't think for the same reason.	23:22
	I didn't feel that we were, like I think a lot of them do,	23:23
	that they are superior and we shouldn't be with them.	23:26
	But I just felt like it was just something	23:30
	that we had to ourselves.	23:32
	Now all of our elementary schools are gone.	23:34
	All the Black, well, they were all-Black,	23:38
	elementary schools are gone now,	23:40
	and there's nothing around to preserve them.	23:43
	Nobody will-	23:47
	After a few, well, almost after my generation	23:49
	because very few of them,	23:51
	all the schools now are integrated.	23:55
	And their schools were kept,	23:58
	but our schools were just let go.	24:00
	And yeah, I can't think of any that's left now,	24:05
	and that's our heritage and it's our memories,	24:08
	you know, are lying in those particular schools.	24:13
	So that's why I think it's sad that they're just gone.	24:15
	Even the Attucks Theater, which housed the Booker T Theater,	24:20
	that's why people wanted to keep it alive,	24:25
	because there will be nothing after a while, you know,	24:27
	to mark that particular period.	24:31
	And people die, then that'll be it.	24:35
-	Did you often go to the Attucks, Booker T?	24:40
-	Mm-hmm, we were there.	24:44
	'Cause most of the movies, not all of them.	24:46
	Most of the movies that my mother let me see	24:50
	were musicals, and they screened them there.	24:53
	They screened them.	24:57
	They didn't look for the media, whatever,	24:58
	to give you a rating, they screened them.	25:01
	And so, because I remember once when we went,	25:06
	I was with the band and we went away,	25:07
	and she wouldn't let me see this movie	25:10
	called, "Leave Her to Heaven".	25:11
	And when we got away, I remember that was playing	25:13
	and I went to see it, and I still didn't understand it	25:17
	until later, what it was all about.	25:22
	You probably-	25:24
-	What's it called again?
-	"Leave Her to Heaven."	25:25
-	Okay.
-	And it was about this, what was it about?	25:27
	It was somebody, you know, adult situations.	25:32
	I think she ended up marrying-	25:36
	She ended up killing a baby	25:41
	by falling down the steps or something like that.	25:44
	And she was a very mean woman.	25:47
	And I didn't really understand it,	25:49
	at that time when I saw it, but I understand it later.	25:52
	I understood it rather, later.	25:56
	And then I understood why she didn't want,	25:58
	it was more adult than you know,	26:01
	than we needed at that time.	26:04
	Of course my niece was here last week,	26:06
	and she has seen practically every R-rated movie	26:08
	that I wouldn't even go to see,	26:11
	because her mother is about,	26:12
	in her mid 20s or early 30s,	26:15
	and she doesn't see anything wrong with it.	26:17
	So that, you know, times have changed quite a bit.	26:19
	But when I went away, when I was in South Carolina,	26:24
	that's where I had the most trouble of all.	26:29
-	Now, when did you go to South Carolina?	26:31
-	Okay I went there, it was '50,	26:33
	I think it was either '57 or '58.	26:39
-	And why did you go?	26:44
-	I really just went visiting to my aunt's,	26:46
	and then I decided to stay.	26:50
	My aunt lived there, and I decided to stay for a while.	26:54
-	What part of South Carolina?	26:57
-	That was Conway.	26:59
-	Okay.
	What made you want to stay?	27:03
-	Well, things just weren't going too well.	27:06
	Oh I had been, I got married very young.	27:09
	I got married right, I finished college,	27:12
	and then I went to St. Louis, to medical technology school	27:14
	and I got married, I think I was 21 or 22,	27:17
	'cause I finished college when I was 19.	27:21
	So I think I got married either the year or two.	27:24
	'Cause one thing about then too and marriage,	27:30
	is as soon as you finished college,	27:32
	I mean, the next thing out of their mouth was,	27:36
	"When are you going to get married?"	27:37
	Whenever I'd go home, "When are you going to get married?"	27:39
	It was so you felt like, you know,	27:42
	you almost owed it to your parents to get married.	27:43
	(laughing) So, and I haven't dated.	27:48
	Remember, I was telling you about it.	27:51
	I really didn't even know how to pick.	27:52
	Anyway, I was in St. Louis and I got married.	27:54
	So this was how it started falling apart.	27:57
	I was about 23 or four then. So I was there	28:00
	and I decided I would just stay.	28:05
	That, you know, that would be, since the marriage,	28:06
	the marriage had-	28:09
	Well, it was breaking up,	28:11
	shall I say, and he was in the service.	28:12
	Okay, so that's why I was there.	28:14
	And since I was going to be there, I asked for,	28:17
	I was a medical technologist,	28:22
	a registered medical technologist.	28:24
	They had this one hospital where I applied for a job,	28:26
	but I was turned down because	28:31
	I was not the right color (laughing), so-	28:33
-	What hospital?	28:37
-	It was the only, I don't remember the name of it.	28:38
	It was only hospital in Conway though, at that time.	28:41
	I don't even remember the name of it.	28:44
	So I couldn't work there, and I was going to stay.	28:47
	So I applied at the school there, at the high school.	28:49
	They only had one high school at that time for Blacks.	28:54
	So I applied and I got the job because music,	28:58
	music was my second degree.	29:00
	What is it? My minor.	29:06
	So my field was biology and science.	29:08
	So they let me teach, you know, I taught there for,	29:12
	and I directed the choir and all that stuff.	29:17
	So I was there, after I'd been there,	29:20
	I had completed one year, and my second year there,	29:23
	I went to, I had been going to the Baptist church	29:26
	and to some other church, the Black-	29:30
	'Cause they didn't have an Episcopal church.	29:33
	I was an Episcopalian at this time.	29:35
	So one day I just happened to see an Episcopal church.	29:37
	And one Sunday I said, "I think I'll go."	29:40
	So I went over and I sat there and waited.	29:42
	Knowing where I was, I sat there outside	29:45
	and the priest came in and I asked him,	29:47
	"Would it be all right if I went to the church?"	29:51
	'Cause I really didn't want to start any trouble.	29:53
	So there was another lady there-	29:56
-	Is this a White church?	29:57
-	It was White, mm-hmm, it was all White,	29:59
	'cause there were no Episcopalians in Conway.	30:00
	So that's what I didn't know about.	30:02
	So she asked me	30:05
	to sit with her, older lady.	30:10
	And I said "sure," 'cause at this time,	30:14
	most of the people had their own pews,	30:16
	you know, that they were sitting.	30:18
	So I said, "Fine, thank you very much."	30:19
	So I sat with her and enjoyed the service, and whatever.	30:21
	Afterwards they introduced me and whatever,	30:24
	and they even asked me to come back and sing with the choir,	30:26
	since they found out that I was in charge of the choir	30:29
	at Whittemore, yeah that's the name of the school	30:33
-	Whittemore.	30:35
-	W-H-I-T-T-E-M-O-R-E.	30:36
	So I said yeah, I thought they were very nice, you know?	30:40
	So when we got ready to leave, it was raining.	30:44
	And the lady asked, she said, "Well, we'll take you home."	30:46
	I said, "No, that's okay."	30:49
	She said, "Oh no, it's raining," she had a chauffeur.	30:50
	Had a chauffeur, and she invited me in and took me home.	30:53
	Very nice and told me, you know, to come back.	30:58
	So then I got out of the car and the people	31:02
	that lived around me happened to see me	31:05
	getting out of this, it was about this long.	31:07
	It wasn't as long as a limousine now, but it was,	31:10
	you know, coming down where we lived in a limousine,	31:12
	they wondered, nosy people.	31:15
	So anyway, it just went from bad to worse.	31:17
	When I went to school the next day,	31:21
	the principal called me in and wanted to know	31:23
	why I had come to this White church.	31:26
	And I explained to him that that was, you know,	31:28
	I'm an Episcopalian,	31:31
	and I was invited in, and so forth.	31:32
	And I had caused all kinds of trouble for the superintendent	31:34
	because I didn't know he belonged to that church,	31:39
	and he didn't want anybody thinking he was for integration.	31:41
	I did not want to integrate the church, I just went.	31:46
	And the the teachers, they you know, were acting funny.	31:49
	Everybody was acting funny except the people	31:54
	that I was, you know, really dealing with.	31:56
	They said nothing about it.	31:58
	So	31:59
	he said that, you know, I shouldn't have done that.	32:03
	And he went on and on and on, and I should not go back.	32:07
	That's what he said.	32:11
	See, when you tell me not to do something,	32:13
	all of a sudden, you know I have to do it.	32:15
	Because it was really, as I felt, none of their business.	32:17
	But when you signed the contract there,	32:20
	first they wanted you to say that	32:23
	you did not belong to the NAACP.	32:25
	I did not, at that particular time, I just put,	32:28
	they said, they just put down organizations you belong to.	32:31
	And I just put down in none.	32:34
	I wanted to put none of your business, but I just,	32:36
	I remember very distinctly writing none.	32:38
	So they sent to the school to find out	32:40
	if I belonged to the NAACP,	32:43
	and if I was there to integrate the church.	32:45
	Why would I integrate the church	32:48
	when nobody there was an Episcopalian but me?	32:49
	And you know, nobody wanted to go, as I'm saying, but me.	32:52
	So this, it was a big mess.	32:56
	And then finally the lady I was,	32:58
	I wasn't living with my aunt.	33:01
	I was living out with another lady,	33:02
	and they had a Ku Klux Klan meeting.	33:04
	And she asked me out of her house,	33:07
	because she said that they would be	33:10
	burning a cross on her front yard.	33:13
	She would lose her job and all kinds of stuff.	33:17
	So I was getting ready to leave.	33:19
	Her husband though, he said, "No, you're not leaving.	33:21
	You're staying here," he said, "no matter what."	33:24
	I give that, 'cause most Black men don't do that.	33:26
	But at that particular time, but he did.	33:30
	And he told me, "Don't leave."	33:32
	And then meanwhile,	33:34
	somebody had notified the FBI	33:37
	that I was in danger, and so the man came down	33:41
	and talked to me, told me to tell everybody else	33:45
	that he was an insurance- he was White- an insurance agent.	33:48
	But then he let me know not to go out by myself,	33:51
	not you know, a whole lot of things, whatever.	33:54
	Because he did, and they did have a meeting.	33:56
	They marched down the street or whatever,	33:58
	but they didn't burn any cross.	33:59
	But they did, you know,	34:02
	I imagine they were trying to scare people.	34:04
	"Do not go anywhere by yourself," or whatever.	34:05
	So that was a major incident, you know, while I was there.	34:08
	Then on the bus going down once-	34:11
-	What happened?	34:14
-	Oh, well as I said, they finally,	34:16
	they had the meeting and so forth,	34:21
	but I didn't sign for another contract, I left.	34:24
	It was, it must have been in the spring.	34:28
	And as the time came by, I just decided not to go back.	34:30
	So the lady, I stayed there until my time was over,	34:35
	but things were very tense for me, so I did not go back.	34:41
	I didn't sign another contract.	34:46
-	Okay, with the school.	34:47
-	He was very, the principal were upset about it.	34:51
	I didn't go back for the simple reason	34:57
	that the FBI person told me, you know, not to go back.	35:01
	So I didn't go back to the church.	35:06
	And I'm not sure whether, I can't remember anything,	35:08
	but I know I didn't go back for that particular reason.	35:13
	He told me, you know, that he thought it would be better	35:16
	if I didn't go back, and as he said,	35:19
	"Stay as inconspicuous, you know, as possible."	35:21
	Because he had heard somebody, I didn't,	35:25
	somebody had gotten in touch with him and, you know,	35:28
	mentioned that I may be in-	35:32
	Because they had had other incidents, I think.	35:33
	Not in that particular area, but South Carolina,	35:36
	you know, has been known to do things.	35:39
	So I just decided that I wouldn't go back.	35:41
	Because before then, on my way down there	35:44
	I was riding the bus, and I sit, as I always do,	35:46
	sit on the front and I was sitting there	35:52
	and we got to some place, and there was a blind woman	35:54
	who got on and he was ushering her to the back of the bus.	35:58
	And I thought, well I'm saying you know, "Sit here."	36:02
	I moved over, but he wouldn't do it.	36:04
	And he looked glared at me, and I didn't say anything.	36:06
	So he didn't say anything else.	36:10
	But as soon as we crossed the South Carolina line,	36:11
	he stopped the bus, got over to me	36:15
	and told me to get in the back of the bus.	36:17
	'Cause this was after the trade agreement had,	36:20
	what is, inter, what is it called?	36:24
	Can't remember, inter commerce, whatever.	36:27
	That you could sit anywhere you want,	36:30
	especially if you were going through state lines.	36:32
	But he got, he stopped that bus as soon as we got	36:34
	to that South, and told me to get up.	36:37
	And I told him I wasn't getting up.	36:40
	And he said, if I didn't get up,	36:42
	that he was going to call the police,	36:44
	and they were going to throw me in jail.	36:47
	And I still told him I was not getting up.	36:49
	And this is what I was saying,	36:51
	because there was some Black men on the bus.	36:52
	They were sitting in the back.	36:55
	'Cause all of them had gone to the back of the bus.	36:56
	And then when I looked around,	36:58
	do you know everybody was down in their seats?	36:59
	I couldn't see one soul, one Black nobody, whatever.	37:03
	So I told him, I said, "I don't have to move."	37:07
	And he said, "And you don't have to live either."	37:11
	So I wrote down his name, number,	37:15
	and everything was on there.	37:20
	And I moved, 'cause I think about midway the bus, you know?	37:23
	'Cause thinking that it wouldn't wouldn't be any right	37:28
	for me to be dead here, if I'm going to do this.	37:31
	So I got his name and his number and whatever,	37:32
	'cause we were almost to where I was going to go.	37:36
	So I got on off, and as I got back,	37:38
	because the principal had a son who was an attorney.	37:44
	And so I told him about it and they had,	37:48
	but it wasn't really pursued as it should have been.	37:52
	But I reported it, but nothing too much was,	37:56
	not to my satisfaction it was completed.	38:02
	He did whatever, but I don't know.	38:06
	I really don't know, as I said,	38:08
	because I left that next year.	38:10
	And then when I was leaving there,	38:13
	I left Conway to go to Myrtle Beach.	38:17
	They told me I would've to pick up the bus there.	38:19
	So I got in the line, the regular line,	38:22
	and every time I would get up to the, where she,	38:26
	she just kept saying, "Next."	38:29
	And I kept telling her what I wanted.	38:31
	All I wanted was to find out what time the bus left.	38:32
	And she just kept on, like I was invisible.	38:35
	So I looked down, I said,	38:37
	"Well, I wonder why she won't wait on me?"	38:39
	They still had those things where, Black and White,	38:40
	Colored rather, Colored and White.	38:45
	So this was all supposed to be over with,	38:48
	and I was not going over to the part	38:51
	where they had, you know, Colored, okay?	38:53
	So I keep standing there and she's still going.	38:56
	So then I go and I sit over at the lunch counter.	38:59
	Then they all, I thought they were all going to die then.	39:02
	My aunt was outside and I was sitting there.	39:06
	So I'm just sitting, I'm just trying to figure out,	39:09
	you know, what was wrong.	39:10
	So I sat there and then two White men came up to me	39:11
	and asked me, what information did I want to know?	39:15
	And I told them, so they said,	39:17
	"Well, we'll go and ask for you."	39:21
	So they did, and they got my luggage.	39:23
	And then when the man, the bus driver came,	39:27
	he ushered me to the seat, sat in the front again,	39:30
	and all of this was taken down.	39:35
	And I did, this was reported and something was done about it	39:38
	because those facilities were not to be there.	39:44
	And one little Black boy, I'll never forget,	39:46
	he was about five.	39:48
	"Lady, lady, you're not supposed to be over here.	39:49
	You're supposed to get on the other side.	39:51
	Lady, lady, please go over to the other side."	39:52
	And as at first, I didn't see it.	39:54
	And then it had some little hole in the wall,	39:58
	you know, where you were supposed to go.	40:00
	But all of these things had been cut down.	40:02
	The, what were they? Jim Crow laws, you know,	40:04
	had been done away with, but they were still there.	40:09
	And as long as you let them do it, they will.	40:13
	But this was found, the bus driver and the two White men,	40:16
	whatever, they all wrote, you know, things about it.	40:20
	And that was done away with.	40:23
	Same thing in the ladies room.	40:25
	I was happening to be on my way there,	40:27
	I went in the one that said ladies,	40:29
	and they had one that said Colored women and ladies.	40:32
	I went to the ladies one, they had a fit about that.	40:35
	So I haven't been there for, 'cause these were times	40:39
	when it was not supposed to be, you know?	40:43
	Really in the '60s.	40:47
	I haven't, and I drove in a car down there and stopped at,	40:50
	you know, the restroom in the filling station.	40:54
	They were still like that because people,	41:01
	they're still having problems at different places because,	41:03
	I just heard of it.	41:06
	Because people, you have to stand up, and if people even,	41:07
	how old are you?	41:11
-	23.
-	See people your age, younger,	41:14
	they don't realize what people did to get where we are,	41:16
	because see you all, you are used to McDonald's,	41:20
	you're used to this, you're used to going wherever you want.	41:22
	Just go and not be humiliated.	41:25
	But my parents, even more so than me.	41:28
	But I remember, 'cause I remember all,	41:30
	every first day, wherever I was.	41:34
	Virginia Beach, and I always wanted to go there.	41:37
	And the first day that they opened to Black,	41:39
	I don't know where I was, but I came.	41:41
	I never did take a like a beach,	41:43
	but I didn't like the fact that I was not allowed to go.	41:44
	So I came back and I went on the beach,	41:49
	walked up and down the beach and in the water,	41:52
	and then that's all I wanted.	41:55
	I don't think I've been back two or three times since.	41:56
	The movies downtown, you couldn't go.	41:59
	First day they opened that, I was there.	42:02
	And it means a lot more to me to see that	42:04
	the way things have opened up for the younger people,	42:09
	and that they're not, most of them,	42:15
	I shouldn't even say most, but a lot of them	42:18
	are not taking advantage of it.	42:20
	We had to work either at somebody's house,	42:22
	or if there was any Black facility,	42:25
	which there were very few of, that you could work.	42:28
	Hardly anything was open to us, hardly anything.	42:32
	I worked over at Community Hospital for a while,	42:35
	as in the lab, and even in the kitchen, in the lab,	42:38
	or whatever that I could do during the summer.	42:42
	You know, when I was in college.	42:43
	So the things that they can do now is just unbelievable	42:46
	to my age and older.	42:51
	'Cause even people let's say 40 and back,	42:53
	say 45 and back, and they realize it,	42:59
	what that we have struggled for, and that's why	43:05
	this particular thing that I'm hearing about,	43:08
	the, what's the latest thing that they're doing?	43:09
	Reversing the affirmative action.	43:13
	I don't believe in giving things to people,	43:17
	but I do believe in, there's some people	43:19
	that you will have to help, minorities and women.	43:22
	'Cause you know, women are pushed aside too.	43:26
	When I went to St. Louis, the reason I went	43:31
	out there to school, because they would admit me	43:36
	in the University of Virginia.	43:39
-	Okay, what happened, you applied?	43:41
-	Oh yeah, 'cause my field, medical technology,	43:43
	I wanted to go there.	43:46
-	Where did you do your undergraduate work?	43:48
-	At Johnson C. Smith, mm-hmm.	43:50
	And I majored in biology and science,	43:52
	and the reason I didn't go was because of,	43:55
	they paid my way out of the state. (laughing)	43:59
-	Now tell me what happened, you-	44:03
-	Oh well, they just wouldn't permit me to go.	44:04
	These were the law of the land, you could not go.	44:06
	So I went, I always wanted to go,	44:09
	but I had been to St. Louis, and they had Homer G. Phillips,	44:12
	that was one of the biggest hospitals around then.	44:15
	All the Blacks from all the med schools	44:18
	and all would come there.	44:21
	It was a huge hospital and a great learning center.	44:22
	They had medical technology, they had radiology	44:24
	and residency, you know, the schools for everything,	44:27
	but Black oriented.	44:33
	So it was a big hospital then,	44:35
	but I think it's probably closed now.	44:36
	But I wanted to go there, so I went to that hospital	44:38
	and they taught medical technology.	44:43
	And I also was able to go	44:45
	to Washington University at the time.	44:46
	But every year they paid for me to travel.	44:50
	They paid my travel expenses.	44:53
-	UVA?	44:54
-	No city, the city-
-	The city-	44:56
-	Not the city.
	But the state.	44:57
-	The state of Virginia.
-	The state of Virginia, paid for me to go out on my own,	44:59
	because they didn't want me to stay there.	45:02
	So I went, that's how I happened to go there.	45:03
	All my experiences have been rich, but when I look back,	45:08
	I don't guess I would want,	45:13
	I would like to have done some of the things	45:15
	that I wanted to do, go where I wanted to go.	45:22
	You know, University of Virginia, or whatever.	45:24
	And if I wanted to go other places,	45:26
	but I would like to have been given the privilege	45:27
	of going to different places.	45:30
	I couldn't even work here after I got my degree	45:32
	and came back home, and I went to Norfolk General.	45:34
	It was even Norfolk General, they would not hire me.	45:37
	They said they were, but they never called me.	45:42
	So I went to work at the VA in Richmond.	45:45
	And as early as-	45:50
	Let me see, it's been 20 years ago.	45:56
	'Cause I worked at the National Institutes of Health	45:58
	in Bethesda, and I applied for a job at Duke,	46:00
	and they hired me.	46:06
	They had principal, I had all the paperwork,	46:08
	sent everything there.	46:11
	And I told them I couldn't come for an interview	46:12
	during the week, so they set up	46:14
	an interview for me on a Saturday.	46:16
	A friend of mine could drive me.	46:19
	He drove me there and they said, "Well, everything's set,	46:20
	but we just need to say that we've had an interview."	46:23
	And when I got there to Duke and I was Black,	46:26
	all of a sudden- 'cause I was going to be	46:30
	a supervisor of this department here.	46:32
	And it was for no other reason,	46:35
	'cause everything else was set.	46:37
	And he hemmed, "Oh, the person decided not to leave,"	46:39
	and he called me-	46:43

	[Barbera Bell] So he said they would call me,	0:03
	and needless to say	0:05
	I've never heard from them again.	0:06
	And see, paperwork, I knew everything was fine.	0:08
	Everything that I said was, it looked good on paper,	0:11
	apparently, because as I said,	0:15
	we just- this is just formality.	0:16
	So I've never heard from them again.	0:19
	And I worked at NIH for about 10 years,	0:23
	National Institutes of Health.	0:27
	And I- it's usually just maybe one	0:29
	or two Blacks in the department.	0:33
	So I had gotten up to supervisory.	0:36
	And so everything's fine	0:40
	until you get to be on, at equal with them.	0:41
	I mean, you get equal it 'cause	0:45
	and then if you happen to get past them,	0:47
	then everything changes.	0:50
	So I was up for promotion and whatever.	0:52
	And the, and the supervisor called me in	0:56
	and he said, asked me, why did I want,	1:00
	I said, why does anybody want to know?	1:02
	He wanted to know why I didn't go over	1:05
	and work at Howard University	1:06
	where the other Black people were working.	1:08
	"Because I don't want to go there.	1:11
	I want to stay here where I want to stay."	1:13
	And he said, "Well you already have a GS above,	1:15
	most Black people."	1:20
	So what does that have to do with anything?	1:23
	Do I qualify?	1:25
	And he told me that this situation- I mean conversation-	1:26
	I never knew he was like this either-	1:31
	conversation, he would deny it.	1:33
	He told me if anything, if I happened to speak about it	1:35
	that he would deny that he ever said anything.	1:38
	And I, he said, "Well, you should go somewhere."	1:42
	I said, "I should go and work where I want."	1:44
	And this was no longer than- let me see.	1:47
	Well, maybe late 70s or 80s.	1:53
	And he said when I should go.	1:55
	And I said "I should be able to work any place	1:58
	that I want to work.	2:00
	And I should be given a promotion	2:01
	on my merit and not on my color."	2:03
	And he went- and I said, "And I will not.	2:05
	I'll not go anywhere until I want.	2:07
	I'll not go anywhere.	2:10
	I'll not leave.	2:11
	I'll not do anything until I want to do it.	2:12
	And I will still advise you to promote me."	2:14
	And I remember that he got so angry.	2:20
	He got, he turned red all over	2:21
	and he got up and I said, "Well, this is your office,"	2:23
	I told him, I said, "so I'll leave."	2:27
	And so I-	2:29
	At that particular time	2:32
	then they started doing all kinds of underhanded things	2:33
	to me and trying to get me to leave,	2:36
	making things very difficult for me.	2:42
	And there was another Black who was a PhD there	2:44
	and he was- I was able fixing things	2:47
	so that I would be all day	2:51
	and half the night getting my work done.	2:53
	And I couldn't figure it out why?	2:54
	So he stayed one day and found out if they had-	2:56
	We would work on sometimes cultures.	2:59
	If they had 50 cultures and they had five people doing it	3:00
	they would divide say maybe 20, between those four	3:04
	and would give me all the rest of them.	3:10
	He went through and found this out.	3:12
	He said, "this is why." 'Cause I couldn't,	3:14
	I never thought people would be like that	3:16
	just because of your color.	3:18
	But they did.	3:20
	They did.	3:20
	And not just to me, there was another girl	3:22
	they hired her the same way.	3:23
	Like they did me at Duke, they hired her because of her,	3:25
	but when she showed her Black, they didn't want her.	3:28
	So they tried to and they finally kicked her out	3:31
	because they not want her to supervise these White people.	3:34
	So there was a, and there still	3:39
	which still bothers me.	3:41
	There's a lot.	3:42
	And when the doctors would come down for me to train,	3:44
	some of them were okay, but some of them just refused.	3:49
	They would not have training from a Black.	3:53
	They would not have training from me.	3:57
	So it was a lot of-	4:00
	You call it difficult,	4:04
	but it bothered me to see people treating you	4:06
	a certain way, just because you were Black.	4:11
	And the more you go, what year are you now?	4:13
	You finished.	4:16
	Have you finished?	4:17
-	Undergraduate.	4:18
-	Uni right and the more education you get	4:19
	the more you able to compete with them.	4:22
	Not all of them.	4:25
	'Cause one of my dearest friends that was there	4:26
	was from Mississippi and I never thought that.	4:29
	But so I don't want to hate a whole race of people	4:32
	because not all of them were like that.	4:36
	But it just bothers me that a lot of people look at you	4:39
	and see your color.	4:41
	And all of a sudden you are inferior	4:43
	and you can't do this and that and the other.	4:44
	And I see it going backwards.	4:47
	I see it going back because you will.	4:50
	The things that we do have will not be for instance	4:54
	the right to go to McDonald's and the right.	4:57
	But you will not be treated the same at some places.	4:59
	I have, believe it or not, I have this little boy here	5:04
	and I sent him or he's really my great nephew	5:07
	but I've adopted him. And he's eight now.	5:10
	And he's at gymnastic and dance move.	5:14
	And when I walked in, I thought,	5:18
	'cause see he knows nothing about the prejudice and all, so.	5:20
	I carried him over	5:23
	and I was going to-	5:24
	Soon as I saw them,	5:25
	'cause see this is embedded in me I should say.	5:26
	Suspicious sometimes when, so I walked in	5:32
	and I didn't tell him.	5:36
	And I looked and I thought,	5:38
	"Well, if they act a little bit like they are,	5:39
	who are they, whatever, I'm not letting him come in."	5:41
	But I walked in and the lady, she was older than me.	5:44
	She greeted us very nicely	5:46
	and acted like she was happy to see us.	5:48
	So, but no other Black kids came	5:50
	and he's over there now with five White girls.	5:53
	And I thought, now, I don't want to poison his mind.	5:56
	But I told him, I said, "Anything unusual happens	6:00
	you're to letting me know right away."	6:05
	'Cause I don't want him treating him badly.	6:07
	So, but so far so good.	6:10
	And it's a shame that you have to tell children	6:12
	because that is something that I wish would-	6:15
	It is something that you don't ever get over really.	6:19
	I noticed that because,	6:23
	I was out someplace just three weeks ago.	6:26
	At this cancer group that I worked with.	6:29
	Most of them are White.	6:31
	So I carried him, we went over there having a picnic.	6:33
	He was sitting there and all	6:36
	so this lady comes up, White lady.	6:38
	She says, "Oh, I want you all to meet my granddaughter."	6:39
	Okay. So she says, "Oh hi," whatever her name is,	6:44
	"This is Mrs. whatever name is,	6:48
	and this is Mr. and this is Barbera."	6:50
	She calls me Barbera that she's going to introduce me	6:54
	to her granddaughter.	6:57
	This is Mrs. so and so,	6:58
	this is Mr. and I'm Barbera.	7:00
	Do you get it?	7:04
-	Mm-hmm. (affirmative)	7:05
	So I thought to myself, I have, I was very angry	7:07
	and I said I'm not going to say anything.	7:10
	Now I should have gotten Michael to come over	7:12
	and introduce him by her first name.	7:14
	But it still bothers me.	7:17
	And I think that was a direct to me insult	7:21
	and I haven't-	7:23
	I didn't speak to her.	7:24
	I'm going speak to the director to find whatever she is	7:25
	but I know her on the first name	7:29
	and I'll speak to her about it, but it still goes on.	7:30
	And it bothers me even more.	7:36
	So those are just some of the things that I can remember.	7:40
	Anything else specifically.	7:48
-	Did anything about St. Louis,	7:53
	about the Black people or White people in St. Louis	7:55
	impress you or because of its the difference	7:59
	from what you experienced.	8:02
-	From here, yeah, that's a good point too.	8:04
	Then I was almost in an all Black environment.	8:08
	I lived at the Y and come to think of it.	8:11
	I didn't run into too many White people	8:14
	'cause the hospital was just about all Black staff	8:17
	and patients.	8:20
-	What was the name of the hospital again?	8:22
-	Homer G Phillips.	8:23
-	Homer G Phillips.	8:25
-	Famous Black man, I don't know too much about him,	8:26
	Homer G Phillips.	8:28
-	Okay.	8:30
-	And come to think of it.	8:32
	My experience there was practically nil	8:34
	because the Y was,	8:36
	everybody that lived there was Black.	8:42
-	What street was the it on?	8:44
-	Locust, I think it was Locust Boulevard.	8:48
	L-O-C-U-S-T.	8:50
	I think that was it.	8:52
	I haven't been back there since either, since I graduated.	8:55
	But now that you mention it	9:01
	I don't remember no one White person there.	9:05
	I went- after I left there though-	9:09
	I went, I went to, yeah, I did	9:11
	'cause I worked there for a couple of months.	9:12
	I did and that was a mixed hospital and I don't remember any	9:17
	I don't remember it would stand out	9:21
	but I don't remember any segregation	9:23
	or anything like that because in St. Louis-	9:28
	See, they were the first city,	9:32
	the ruling was in 1954.	9:36
	And in 1954 their schools were integrated immediately.	9:40
	They started with the first grade	9:45
	and they all first grades are integrated	9:48
	and then through the years	9:51
	but I understand that there was some problem there.	9:53
	I don't know whether they went on with	9:55
	the way they had set it out.	9:57
	But I remember that in that very September	9:58
	whatever year they started integrating all first grades	10:01
	on the, they thinking that,	10:05
	well, the younger kids are they're mixed together better.	10:08
	You can't mix them so well for the first time at high school	10:12
	and junior high age	10:16
	because they've gotten all of their parents,	10:17
	all of what they have to say in them.	10:21
	So they did.	10:23
	I remember that they did that first.	10:24
	I don't, as I said, I don't know how it worked out.	10:26
	But I don't remember any trouble there.	10:29
-	Did the Black people strike you as any different,	10:31
	than Black folks where you'd been before?	10:33
-	They were a little more, because one thing too	10:36
	they were from all over.	10:39
	Well, the ones that I knew, cause a lot of them	10:40
	were like graduates from Howard University.	10:43
	Then they were from Indiana and all	10:45
	they were from all over the ones that I was in contact with.	10:49
	But the people themselves	10:52
	they seemed a little more sophisticated.	10:55
	That's the word. I think they were all in all,	10:59
	has been clothing wise the way they spoke.	11:02
	They weren't as	11:06
	giving or as forgiving, shall I say,	11:10
	as what I have known in the South.	11:14
	'Cause being raised right here,	11:15
	you sort of think that everybody's the same way	11:17
	even though I had been north to camp.	11:20
	But they were more sophisticated.	11:23
	I think that's a good word to describe the way	11:27
	they were, worldly.	11:29
	Maybe we can even say that.	11:32
-	What was it like,	11:42
	were you here during World War II?	11:43
-	I was a child.	11:46
	Yeah, but I remember 'cause I remember	11:48
	over the school where we were	11:53
	and how we had to get in the clothes closet.	11:55
	Do you mean just experience or?	12:02
	Yeah, okay.	12:03
	Because I remember my mother-	12:04
	Godmother, I called her the same	12:08
	'cause she's the one that raised me,	12:10
	she's my mother.	12:11
	We had SPs here.	12:14
	She took in people that needed, people-	12:17
	You know, housing for people.	12:19
	And it was just the three of us here at the time,	12:21
	just the three of us.	12:23
	So she would take in, we have a third floor	12:24
	which would four or five people could sleep up there.	12:27
	So she took in, we had about,	12:30
	I remember four right off the bat,	12:33
	and then some others used to come in to eat.	12:35
	She loved to cook and she loved to fix for people. So we-	12:37
	I remember that because I had crushes on all of them.	12:42
	They were probably in their early twenties,	12:44
	at the time, they were young	12:47
	early twenties. And they would come	12:48
	and I said those who ate, and they were four.	12:51
	Let's see Ross.	12:55
	I think it was four that lived here on the third floor.	12:56
	And to me, even though it was a war going on	13:00
	it was a good time, for me.	13:04
	I was still a child and I didn't remember too much	13:06
	about the killing part of the war,	13:10
	but money, there was more money to spend.	13:12
-	People where were jobs.	13:16
-	They had jobs.	13:17
	Everybody was working.	13:18
	I remember my mother, that, her taking	13:20
	in the boarders and also she worked in Red Cross.	13:22
	'Cause we would have blackouts and things here.	13:26
	That's why we still have the room, dark and curtains.	13:29
	I think she still, we still have those.	13:32
	And so, but it, to me, it was a good time.	13:34
	Yeah, I remember that.	13:40
	And I remember when I was in camp in New York	13:41
	when the war was over.	13:44
-	What part of New York were you in?	13:47
-	Bear Mountain, right out of the city of New York.	13:49
	There was a camp there.	13:52
	African American camp called Fern Rock	13:55
	and I used to go there every summer	13:56
	for I went there about three years I think.	13:58
	It was nice there just cool.	14:03
	We wouldn't need air conditioning and all	14:05
	like we do now, right off the lake.	14:06
	There were lakes there.	14:09
	It was about two to three hours by boat from New York City.	14:12
	That was fun.	14:17
	And I remember, as I said at August	14:19
	I think it was August of '45 when they had VJ Day.	14:21
	Yeah, I was in camp there and know how much,	14:26
	how happy everybody was.	14:32
	'Cause I had an uncle that was in the war.	14:33
	My brothers and nobody, none of my,	14:37
	they weren't old enough yet.	14:40
	But I do remember an uncle	14:41
	and all the people who stayed here	14:43
	they were the SP they were Shore Patrol.	14:44
	So I guess they were assigned with the Navy.	14:48
	I never thought of that.	14:50
	And two of them are here now and two of them	14:51
	I just still I've kept in touch with them all four of them.	14:56
	And that brings back good memories.	15:04
	Yeah and the only thing that I was ever	15:06
	I wasn't afraid then, because of that	15:09
	when you're a child,	15:11
	your parents have to do all the worrying	15:13
	or at least they should.	15:16
	And I didn't worry.	15:18
	I just knew that there was a war going on	15:19
	but that there was more money.	15:21
	I remember rationing though, because we had	15:23
	there was sugar rationing, gasoline.	15:26
	Mother always had the car	15:32
	and she always drove a car,	15:33
	and there was gasoline rationing and something about shoes.	15:35
	'Cause I remember,	15:39
	I don't remember exactly what but I remember going-	15:40
	I don't know why they even had rationing on shoes.	15:42
	But I remember maybe because of the leather, I don't know.	15:44
	But I remember you could only- something about shoes.	15:47
	But sugar, yeah, butter, gasoline.	15:52
	I remember those three, but she always managed to cook.	15:56
	We always ate well	16:00
	and she would even bring people off the street to cook.	16:01
	She would just love and she liked company.	16:05
	She liked the company.	16:07
-	This is your godmother.	16:09
-	My godmother, my grandmother too.	16:10
-	The people, she would invite people in?	16:12
-	Yeah, she would-	16:15
	Then too, if you, for instance	16:17
	if you came here to see me now,	16:19
	I did offer you something to drink and all,	16:21
	but she would say, "Stay for dinner."	16:23
	I mean, and she would absolutely insist	16:27
	if you didn't stay for dinner, then she would be upset.	16:29
	And some people would just come by.	16:32
	They knew when we ate	16:34
	and then they would just come by, "Come on, have a seat."	16:35
	There was never- there was always food.	16:39
	And you didn't- food was-	16:42
	Even though money was scarce at times.	16:44
	But food had never gone up, until, say, maybe 20 years ago	16:46
	when it just kept going up, up. You could get food,	16:50
	if you couldn't get anything else. And she loved to cook.	16:53
	You could- I would bring company home from college,	16:55
	anyway, I just called and we were coming home, "Fine."	16:58
	She never said- she'd get out of her bed.	17:02
	If you wanted to cook, wanted her to cook.	17:05
	I miss that now 'cause I realize how much it meant-	17:08
	I didn't, you know-	17:11
	You don't miss a lot of things until it's gone.	17:13
	But yeah, she was very good about that.	17:17
	And I would bring company in from wherever, school,	17:19
	anywhere, when I was working in Richmond,	17:23
	I called and said, we were coming home.	17:25
	Five of us or six of us are coming.	17:27
	And that would give her pleasure.	17:29
	That's the difference too in the older people	17:31
	and even myself, then the younger.	17:35
	We wouldn't have gotten as far as we,	17:38
	if we had to depend on-	17:40
	Not just because they're young	17:43
	because of the way that they think.	17:44
	Everything has to be done, now.	17:45
	And see, they took a lot of things, kids.	17:48
	That's why, because they're not able to cope.	17:51
	They're not able to take anything.	17:53
	That's why they're killing one another.	17:56
	'Cause I, "You stepped on my foot	17:58
	and I'm going to kill you for that."	18:00
	Things like that.	18:02
	They did a lot, and people don't give them a lot of credit	18:03
	because a lot of them knew a lot of things.	18:06
	But, like the Underground Railroad,	18:09
	and all of those kind of things that came out of slavery.	18:11
	See, you had to keep your mouth shut.	18:14
	You had to say "Yes," and "Mrs. so and so,"	18:16
	and what, and then go along with the program.	18:18
	You can't let everybody know what you were doing.	18:20
	That's how they got by because they never suspected.	18:23
	And they also never suspected	18:27
	that we were as smart as we are.	18:28
	We had to be very smart.	18:31
	Don't you think? To do all the things that we-	18:33
	And to endure,	18:35
	we can endure.	18:37
	You see, they never suspected that.	18:38
	So that's why things went-	18:40
	Calling some people Uncle Tom, because of, various things.	18:42
	But they did that for a reason.	18:46
	They had to do it.	18:48
	And that's why, as I said,	18:50
	we are as far as we are now because of what they did for us.	18:52
-	What was your elementary school?	19:03
-	What?	19:05
-	What elementary school did you?	19:06
-	John T West.	19:06
-	John T West	19:07
-	John T West.
-	Was that near your home or did you have to walk?	19:09
-	No, it, I had to walk along.	19:11
	It was over when I first moved	19:13
	but when I moved over here	19:15
	I had to walk and I had to walk by myself	19:18
	'cause everybody else was-	19:20
	It's way on the other side of the town.	19:22
	But I walked 'cause we walked every place.	19:24
	Everybody wanted to walk.	19:26
	And there wasn't, but my little boy	19:28
	I won't even let him go four blocks in school by himself.	19:30
	Because of, the situation today.	19:33
	Yeah, we walked a long way and I was only one here.	19:37
	The other kids went to school called Laura E Titus.	19:41
	But I went because that's where I first started.	19:44
	And they didn't care where you went to school	19:47
	then, you didn't have all these districts	19:49
	that you had to go to school here, because I-	19:52
	My closest school today would be right,	19:55
	I can see it from here.	19:57
	But we can't go to that school	19:59
	because we on this side of the street.	20:00
	We have to go to a school where our district is,	20:02
	way over there, but I can see this school right here	20:04
	if I go out the door.	20:06
	So we didn't have to do that then.	20:08
	So I went over there	20:09
	and it was one of the oldest ones I think.	20:11
	One the oldest ones in Norfolk, John T West School.	20:15
	So that's yeah, my, that was only-	20:23
	Then I went to-	20:25
	Then you went to Booker T, junior high.	20:26
	And then there was high school.	20:29
	I think I went one or one and a half years to junior.	20:32
	I think I skipped something the seventh high, whatever.	20:35
	And then we went on to high school.	20:39
	So I've only been to two schools here.	20:42
-	And what church did you attend?	20:46
-	That time I attended First Baptist.	20:48
-	That's right.	20:50
-	Then I would and then I would go to First Baptist	20:51
	and Grace Episcopal.	20:54
	Now, I'm a Episcopalian, and I go to Grace.	20:55
-	Okay, all right, thank you.	20:57

Item Info

Title:

Barbera Bell interview recording, 1995 July 26

Date:

July 26, 1995

Creator:

Bell, Barbera Williams

Contributor:

Turner, Kisha

Description:

Name: Barbera Williams Bell; Date of birth: 1933-05-14; Place of birth: Norfolk, VA; Occupation(s): health Care Tech; educator; science teacher; Residence: Norfolk, VA
Informant ID: 950; Interviewed by: Kisha Turner.

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1282
62f3a5ec-7bd9-4595-b13b-b9f63ee29e4a
behindtheveil
3cecdec6-11d8-4f75-90b5-73a0da2d0e32
ark:/87924/r49g5tp4d
3cecdec6-11d8-4f75-90b5-73a0da2d0e32

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r49g5tp4d

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Barbera Bell interview recording, 1995 July 26

Transcript

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1. Barbera Bell administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Barbera Bell interview recording, 1995 July 26

Transcript

Item Info

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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