Josephine McCray interview recording, 1995 June 27

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Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, I can remember some things.	0:02
Mary Hebert	Can you just start by telling us your full name, and when and where you born?	0:04
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, I was born in Clarendon County, New Zion, South Carolina.	0:08
Mary Hebert	In New Zion? Is this New Zion where we are now?	0:12
Josephine Baker McCray	No. This is Manning.	0:14
Mary Hebert	This is still Manning?	0:15
Josephine Baker McCray	Mm-hmm.	0:18
Mary Hebert	Like I said, I'm from Louisiana. I don't know the area too well.	0:18
Josephine Baker McCray	That's right. They've got Manning, South Carolina, but I was born in New Zion, South Carolina.	0:20
Mary Hebert	In New Zion?	0:20
Josephine Baker McCray	Clarendon County, New Zion, South Carolina. Yeah.	0:20
Mary Hebert	That's out by Turbeville?	0:20
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	0:29
Mary Hebert	And when's your birthday?	0:30
Josephine Baker McCray	My birthday is September the 22nd, 1911.	0:32
Mary Hebert	1911?	0:38
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah.	0:39
Mary Hebert	And what were your parents' names?	0:41
Josephine Baker McCray	Grant Baker.	0:44
Mary Hebert	Grant Baker?	0:45
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	0:46
Mary Hebert	And your mom's name?	0:48
Josephine Baker McCray	Lou Alice Baker.	0:49
Mary Hebert	Lou Ella?	0:53
Josephine Baker McCray	Lou Alice. Alice.	0:54
Mary Hebert	Lou Alice. Okay. And they lived out in New Zion?	0:56
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, that was their home. That where they live at. Yeah, they lived over by New Zion. They been living and working some too. But their native was in New Zion.	1:01
Mary Hebert	What did they do for a living? Were they farmers?	1:11
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, Lord. What else, baby?	1:18
Mary Hebert	There's not much else around here, huh?	1:21
Josephine Baker McCray	Huh?	1:21
Mary Hebert	There wasn't much else to do around here, huh?	1:22
Josephine Baker McCray	There wasn't anything else to do.	1:25
Mary Hebert	Where they sharecroppers? Did they work for someone else?	1:26
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no. My papa had his own place. Own plantation.	1:28
Mary Hebert	How big was it? Do you remember?	1:31
Josephine Baker McCray	No, I can't remember how big it was, but I know it was enough to fill two barns. A 16 foot and a 12 foot, not no backup barn. I know that much.	1:34
Mary Hebert	You said tobacco barns?	1:41
Josephine Baker McCray	Sixteen foot barn, yeah.	1:42
Mary Hebert	So y'all grew tobacco out there more than cotton?	1:49
Josephine Baker McCray	Hm?	1:52
Mary Hebert	Y'all grew cotton and tobacco?	1:52
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. He had the cotton and tobacco.	1:54
Mary Hebert	Did he have people working for him?	1:56
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, Colored people.	1:57
Mary Hebert	Did they live on the land?	2:00
Josephine Baker McCray	Uh-uh.	2:01
Mary Hebert	No. They would just come in and do day labor and stuff like that?	2:01
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.	2:04
Mary Hebert	And—	2:04
Josephine Baker McCray	Now I'm going to say—He used to rent from Mr. Alderman.	2:07
Mary Hebert	Mr. Alderman?	2:14
Josephine Baker McCray	He used to rent a house. He rented the house and some land from Alderman too. From Deputy Alderman too.	2:16
Mary Hebert	And he owned some of the land, too?	2:23
Josephine Baker McCray	No, he didn't own it all, but he owned all of his plantations.	2:25
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh. Your father, but he rented land from someone else too?	2:31
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no. He rent some—	2:31
Mary Hebert	Too?	2:34
Josephine Baker McCray	—He rent some, but he didn't work it.	2:35
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh.	2:36
Josephine Baker McCray	He rented for those people who had been helping him.	2:37
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh. Oh, okay. So the people who were helping him lived on that?	2:41
Josephine Baker McCray	Right. Right.	2:43
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay. So he rented a house and the land for those people who were helping him?	2:44
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	2:47
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay.	2:48
Josephine Baker McCray	Mm-hmm.	2:48
Mary Hebert	And when you were growing up, what kind of chores did you have to do around the house?	2:50
Josephine Baker McCray	Me? Cooking and washing.	2:54
Mary Hebert	Did you have to work out in the field?	3:03
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah. I had to work in the field. Yeah, man, plenty. I reckon that's why I married as young as I did. I'm thinking I know, because I been tired of working in the field. I was tired of working.	3:04
Mary Hebert	You were tired of working in the fields. Where did you go to work after that? Did you work after that?	3:13
Josephine Baker McCray	Uh-uh. Uh-uh. Not right then, no. I went and nursed a baby for a White lady.	3:21
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh. You nursed?	3:21
Josephine Baker McCray	I nursed two babies for a White lady. That's what I done. That's what I been doing when I was about 15 years old.	3:32
Mary Hebert	She was someone who lived near you?	3:45
Josephine Baker McCray	No. She had lived at Olanta, South Carolina.	3:48
Mary Hebert	So you moved in with them?	3:48
Josephine Baker McCray	No. Yeah, they in the house. Right—	3:48
Mary Hebert	You lived in the house with them?	3:48
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. She was White, but they was nice people, Lord. My mama was particular. She wouldn't let you go out and [indistinct 00:04:04] for no boarder. You had to stay in a bed right in their house. And I was nursing two kids.	3:56
Mary Hebert	Did you do anything else? Did you cook or clean the house or anything? You just took care of her children?	4:13
Josephine Baker McCray	I was just supposed to take care of them children. I ain't going to tell no story. Because I wasn't doing anything that much at home, because my older sister was doing it. I was lazy.	4:20
Mary Hebert	Well, when you were living in the house with these White people, did she give you clothes and stuff like that?	4:31
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. She gave me some clothes, sure. She'd give me clothes. Sure did. I couldn't wear them though. My baby sister had to wear them. I couldn't wear them, but yeah, she gave me plenty of clothes.	4:36
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh.	4:45
Josephine Baker McCray	Now I could wear her sister's clothes, what I used to go to funerals with, that I married in her—I got married in her dress that her sister give me. Her sister give me a stylish new dress, and her sister give me. And wasn't going to do nothing for children, but her.	4:47
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm. Well, after you married, you had to leave that job?	4:59
Josephine Baker McCray	No. I didn't have to leave, but I leave.	5:04
Mary Hebert	But you did?	5:04
Josephine Baker McCray	I been getting away from work then. I was getting away from work, yeah.	5:13
Mary Hebert	Yes.	5:13
Josephine Baker McCray	I been getting away from work then. I had already been married at—I was 16. So there. You know—	5:13
Mary Hebert	That was your first husband? Were you married—	5:13
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	5:13
Mary Hebert	—You said you had more than—	5:13
Josephine Baker McCray	Huh?	5:13
Mary Hebert	You said you had two husbands?	5:13
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	5:13
Mary Hebert	Yeah.	5:25
Josephine Baker McCray	Mm-hmm.	5:26
Mary Hebert	Did you get to go to school when you were growing up?	5:31
Josephine Baker McCray	Ooh, yeah, man. I had to go to school, gracious goodness. My parents would kill me. Yeah. Mm-hmm.	5:33
Mary Hebert	What school did you go to?	5:39
Josephine Baker McCray	I went to St. Mark's School. I went to different schools, man. I went to school when they was in houses, teaching.	5:43
Mary Hebert	So there were teachers teaching in houses?	5:53
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In whole houses, because that's all they had to teach in. A whole house where some White people had done—two-story building, some of them. And some of them were just houses.	5:57
Mary Hebert	And your parents insisted that you go?	6:04
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, man. You had to go to school.	6:11
Mary Hebert	Had they gone to school?	6:14
Josephine Baker McCray	My parents? Oh, Lord, yeah, man. My parents could have taught school. Back in that time, they taught some school.	6:16
Mary Hebert	Your parents taught some?	6:22
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. You know, they didn't have to do nothing but just—Back then, it was old houses. Then when you get up in the old house. You in school wasn't but just staying three and four months, then.	6:23
Mary Hebert	Right.	6:34
Josephine Baker McCray	Back in that time.	6:35
Mary Hebert	And did you have to walk?	6:36
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, boy.	6:38
Mary Hebert	How far was it from your house to St. Mark's School?	6:40
Josephine Baker McCray	About three miles.	6:42
Mary Hebert	Both ways? Yeah.	6:45
Josephine Baker McCray	No. It was about three miles one way.	6:46
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh. And six miles—	6:46
Josephine Baker McCray	Right.	6:46
Mary Hebert	—both ways? That's right.	6:46
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah, man. You had to get up, and you had to be on that road at daylight.	6:54
Mary Hebert	Did you have to do any chores before you left?	6:58
Josephine Baker McCray	Hm?	7:01
Mary Hebert	Did you have to do any work around the house before you left?	7:01
Josephine Baker McCray	We had to milk cows. My daddy had cows. You had to milk four or five cows and cook breakfast and all.	7:03
Mary Hebert	Then you got to walk to school?	7:10
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Sure did. You had to walk. You'd be up at 5:00.	7:15
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh. And then you milked the cows and you started walking for school?	7:18
Josephine Baker McCray	Get it strained and start walking. Mother would strain the milk too. She strained the milk and—but you don't milk the cow, you had to have [indistinct 00:07:29] in the night. You're looking at a problems.	7:20
Mary Hebert	How many grades did you go through in school? Do you remember?	7:36
Josephine Baker McCray	I went through all of them. All the grades. I went through all of them. I went through all the grades, I went through. I went to—Well, now, I'm complete. I went through all.	7:41
Mary Hebert	So you finished? Do they call it, finished, here? That's what they call it in Louisiana, you've finished.	7:43
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, I graduated. Yeah. I graduated. I went through all, and my son was, my baby boy, he was to graduate that same year. I went—I had went until I got to sixth grade. I went on back to school like people go now.	7:59
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay. So you went to sixth grade when you were younger, and then you graduated later on?	8:08
Josephine Baker McCray	Well, I didn't get to finish that much, but I got to observe with classes going. I go to there. And I was to graduate that year. I was to graduate that same—Well, it was the same month. And my mother took sick at the house, and I come back and she couldn't talk. I just—Well, I didn't march, but I got the certificate, but I couldn't put my hand on it right now, no.	8:13
Mary Hebert	But you got your certificate said that you finished?	8:45
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've got it. They give it to me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. They give it to me. Back when it was given then, but she'll bring it to me. That was when my baby was finishing school, now when I went back and got through those seventh, eighth, ninth and twelfth grades. I went back to school with him.	8:48
Mary Hebert	So you went back at the same time your son was—	9:06
Josephine Baker McCray	My baby boy.	9:08
Mary Hebert	Your baby boy.	9:08
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. I went back. At night.	9:09
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh.	9:11
Josephine Baker McCray	At night. I went back at night, the only time. At night. It wasn't in the day now, at night.	9:12
Mary Hebert	At night? After dinner and stuff, you'd go back? Was it that late?	9:17
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah. I'd go about 6:00, 5:00 and 6:00. Mm-hmm.	9:18
Mary Hebert	How many brothers and sisters did you have?	9:30
Josephine Baker McCray	I had five, and then sisters—Five brothers.	9:31
Mary Hebert	And sisters?	9:31
Josephine Baker McCray	And Charity, one dead. Six brothers I done been having. But he lived for a month. Yeah, I had not but two sisters.	9:31
Mary Hebert	You have two sisters and five brothers?	9:31
Josephine Baker McCray	Right. Three sisters. I have three sisters and me, and five brothers. Mm-hmm, that's right.	9:31
Mary Hebert	Did your brothers and sisters have to work on the farm too?	10:05
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Mm-hmm.	10:07
Mary Hebert	Did your brothers have to work out in the field more than the girls did?	10:09
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Sure did, yeah. They had to [indistinct 00:10:19] the girls, now.	10:18
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm.	10:18
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, Lord.	10:18
Mary Hebert	Did you work in your mother's garden? Did your mother have a garden?	10:18
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. They had a garden. Man, they did have a garden at that time. I don't know what to pick. You going to wake up, what you call it, [indistinct 00:10:35] they used to make things back then. Yes they did.	10:21
Mary Hebert	Uh huh. And did you have to preserve, can, some of the vegetables and fruit that you'd grow?	10:40
Josephine Baker McCray	No, well she'd go now. I didn't.	10:45
Mary Hebert	She did, though? Did your mother do that kind of stuff? She put them up in jars?	10:47
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I used to put them up here in jars, and Lord, that thing was good. Yeah. I didn't can. Long as I lived with her, I ain't never can nothing. I can after my, after I got married, I learned to can. I didn't even learn to can there before I married, not in this story. In this story—	10:53
Mary Hebert	Would you all make your own clothes and sew quilts and things like that?	11:09
Josephine Baker McCray	I make quilts, now, but I didn't sew my own clothes. My mother was a seamstress. She used to sew her own. Mm-hmm.	11:13
Mary Hebert	Did she sew for other people too?	11:21
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, yeah, yeah, Lord. Yeah, ooh. And I got a daughter do that now. I got a daughter makes wedding dresses right now. She take after my mama. She got just like my mother, but my mother ain't get to make no wedding dress, but she used to make what the people married in back at that time. But then until they got married, she used to make wedding dresses for people back then, suits of clothes. My mama do that. I got a daughter who can do that, too.	11:22
Mary Hebert	Would your mama sew for White people too, or was it just for—	11:47
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, back in that time, it was no. It isn't like it is now. I eat at the table with you.	11:50
Mary Hebert	Right.	11:58
Josephine Baker McCray	I eat at the table with you. Me and you pray a little salad while it's sitting in the saucer, together, and me and you eat, sometimes something on my plate and you want it, you take it off.	11:59
Mary Hebert	But it wasn't like that back then.	12:10
Josephine Baker McCray	That's how it was back in my time.	12:11
Mary Hebert	That's how it was? Where—	12:13
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. That's why I tell you that the time has changed from what it used to be. You didn't know any different. Uh-uh, back then, I didn't.	12:15
Mary Hebert	Between Black and White, there was no—	12:22
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no, no. You didn't know any different. This is a White child and a Black child, but it's sister, sister, sister, sister. This they sister and brother. Sister and brother.	12:23
Mary Hebert	So y'all would play together, and—	12:31
Josephine Baker McCray	Play together. Sleep together, too.	12:35
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm.	12:36
Josephine Baker McCray	I ain't storying. That's the first time I ever had louse in my hair.	12:36
Mary Hebert	You caught it from a little White girl?	12:45
Josephine Baker McCray	Right. But I didn't care. It didn't mind me, because God knows I love her. Me and her was just strong buddies. Me [indistinct 00:12:57] and her. But she was, just to me like a sister.	12:47
Mary Hebert	Whose child was she?	13:02
Josephine Baker McCray	Louis Morris.	13:04
Mary Hebert	Did he own the plantation, too?	13:07
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, he did own a plantation, too, yeah. Right, yeah, just like house to house, yeah, house plantation. Uh-huh. Yeah, he had owned a plantation, too. Yeah.	13:09
Mary Hebert	When did that change? When did your—She stopped—Did you all keep on being friends after you—	13:20
Josephine Baker McCray	Just as long we live. Just as long as we live.	13:23
Mary Hebert	So y'all still, y'all still be friends?	13:23
Josephine Baker McCray	Right on, as long as we live. No difference that's the way we see one another, no difference. That why I say. That's a friend. A friend in need indeed is a friend in need. That's all. I never done that. I got one over here right now in Manning, in a project. I call about every day, I call for her. And she calls me every other day, most, and I call her. That to me is a date. She named Alma Biven.	13:28
Mary Hebert	But things are not like that anymore?	13:55
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I ain't know about it. You ain't know about it neither, did you?	13:59
Mary Hebert	What?	14:03
Josephine Baker McCray	Is that the way up where you come from?	14:03
Mary Hebert	In Louisiana?	14:06
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	14:07
Mary Hebert	What do you mean? Is it—It's not like that in Louisiana either, no.	14:08
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no. It's not that. They don't need to make a—I think it's a great change.	14:17
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm.	14:17
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, good change. Great change. Great change, man. People used to drink water right together, eat together and go right on along about their business. And people drive, and they used to have a church, a church just down there in Midway. It have a gallery in it. A gallery. Colored people and the White go to church right together. You pray there. You might like to have come by, but you come through Manning, right?	14:21
Mary Hebert	I came through Manning.	14:45
Josephine Baker McCray	But it's right over that Midway, and that church got the Colored people sitting down. But the Colored people that sit, kind of down and minded, you know, keep the children, the White children, and all be together down in the gallery, but the old people in the [indistinct 00:15:01] sit right together [indistinct 00:15:04].	14:46
Mary Hebert	So it wasn't just—This was back—	15:04
Josephine Baker McCray	No. That back then. Yeah, yeah. That back then, because I'll be 84 years old the 22nd of September coming. You know that back. Good back, too.	15:12
Mary Hebert	Where did your family go to church when you were growing up?	15:18
Josephine Baker McCray	St. Joe AME Church.	15:21
Mary Hebert	Do y'all still go there?	15:26
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, I still go there. But I really, I went Baptist.	15:32
Mary Hebert	You're going Baptist now?	15:38
Josephine Baker McCray	That was a Methodist, AME.	15:38
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh.	15:38
Josephine Baker McCray	But I changed after about 19 or 20 years, I've been Baptist now.	15:44
Mary Hebert	And what Baptist Church do you go to?	15:47
Josephine Baker McCray	Oak Grove out on—	15:48
Mary Hebert	Oak Grove?	15:48
Josephine Baker McCray	—on 301, yeah. Oak Grove Baptist Church. But I go to the Hebrew Church now. The Howard Chapel, St. Joe, and then Oak. Different places I go to church.	15:48
Mary Hebert	How far was St. John from your house?	16:02
Josephine Baker McCray	Oh my Lord. In [indistinct 00:16:12] I reckon, I'd call it about 19 miles.	16:05
Mary Hebert	So y'all would go in a wagon to church?	16:13
Josephine Baker McCray	No. You take off and walk.	16:13
Mary Hebert	So you'd walk to church?	16:17
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, sometime. And sometime you walk, and well, it was an absent Sunday and they wasn't at my Sunday school. Now if you walked that Sunday, but the Sunday where it was on real preaching, them two Sundays weren't real preaching Sunday, your mama and papa taking care of you. Yeah.	16:18
Mary Hebert	So they'd take you up—	16:37
Josephine Baker McCray	In the wagon. Or Surrey. A surrey. Back then they had surreys.	16:43
Mary Hebert	A surrey?	16:44
Josephine Baker McCray	And a two-horse wagon. Yeah, a two-horse wagon, a surrey and buggies.	16:45
Mary Hebert	No cars, huh?	17:00
Josephine Baker McCray	They went and had cars. Right before I married they had cars.	17:00
Mary Hebert	But your parents didn't have a car when you were a little kid.	17:00
Josephine Baker McCray	No. My parents had one. He had one, when I was only a little kid, he had one car, yeah. He had some kind of foozy class up and down and back. Yeah, he had one car back then, and I was just kind of—Well, I was about like this.	17:02
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh. So you were about eight or ten?	17:20
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, yeah, that's right, eight or ten. Yeah, I can remember he'd carry us to church, and he'd—But he first had a surrey and a buggy. And he had let—They were nice back then, and but they'd run so high. He had a big old two-seat surrey, two horses, and then he had a buggy. A new-brand buggy. And we used to go, and he had a one-horse wagon and he had a two-horse wagon, my papa did. And he went, and so—He at last, got the car and put the surrey and the buggy down.	17:23
Mary Hebert	So he stopped using the surrey and the buggy when he got the car?	18:01
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, he stopped using them. They stayed out, they'd always been out there. If he wanted to use them he would use them, but just to say, at last, he'd go to church and take us to church in that car. Mm-hmm, that's right. Lot of people, a few people had a farm and things. They got cars. I had an uncle that, two uncles bought a car. And they started coming up from right from there.	18:04
Mary Hebert	Do you remember World War I and when that happened, did a lot of people from around here leave and go off to war for the first World War? You were little, then, though. I mean, you would have been—	18:34
Josephine Baker McCray	I didn't knew about that first war.	18:47
Mary Hebert	What about at Roosevelt's time and Hoover's time? Do you remember that?	18:50
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah, I can remember that. But I just can't remember when—I hear, seen my papa sign up for any war. Now that was what my mama see. But I was eight then, but if he go, I didn't hardly would have knew whether he'd go or he didn't.	18:53
Mary Hebert	Right, because you were, what? About five or six?	19:13
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. I wouldn't have known whether he'd go or whether he didn't go. I know one thing, but I can say this much. Because I don't want [indistinct 00:19:22], and I ain't saying a story about nothing and not know it.	19:14
Josephine Baker McCray	I see her one day. I thought about her too. You know what I think, daddy children didn't know much anything about what was happening then. I see out that tub—She went to the mailbox, and I see her come back, she shouting, and she took her dress all the way around her hip. And when she do, she say, "Oh Lord, and my husband ain't got to go. The war is ending."	19:26
Mary Hebert	So he didn't have to go.	19:49
Josephine Baker McCray	No. "The war is ending. My husband ain't got to go." And I hear that, and but that all it was. I didn't know what the phrase no war or anything was then. That's why I was telling the truth. I sure didn't.	19:50
Mary Hebert	When you were coming up, did people in the community, people that lived around you help one another out a lot?	20:04
Josephine Baker McCray	Oh Lord. Yes, indeed. The other person, you had, your trouble is their trouble. If it's going and hoeing and chopping, plowing, anything, your trouble is their trouble. That's how they go. Here we go. Lord have mercy. It wouldn't be hard to get them now out of all that. I'm telling you now, but if you kill a hog, I have cried many a day. I'm a little greedy girl, and I have cried many a day. But my mama, she say, if you kill a hog, my mama and papa kill a hog, I'm telling you the truth. They wouldn't have one with too many, and I mean two or three. You'd have to go yonder, go yonder and kill it. Go yonder, carry on, go on. And another person that we going to kill a hog, because they coming. Oh Lord, hand in hand.	20:10
Josephine Baker McCray	I can remember that. I remember that because I was a little greedy girl, I loved meat, and I reckon I can remember. I can remember that good, now. Hand in hand, them coming in, coming. I know my mama used to send so much of the meat off, and I'll tell you, I had got me a plan. I'd slop it up and stop inside. Stop inside and run, get a piece out, you know, and bring it back and hide it and cook it when they're gone. That's right. Because I that was big how I did like the meat. I think it's been 16 years old and that thing was going too or something. Man, people was—Everybody was your sister then and brother, is [indistinct 00:21:50] now. But everybody nurtures their brother and sister now. That in God word it is. But it ain't no more.	21:05
Mary Hebert	But it used to be, where everyone was sisters and brothers, and they—	22:02
Josephine Baker McCray	Sisters and brothers, that's right.	22:04
Mary Hebert	Did they help one another out?	22:04
Josephine Baker McCray	Help one another out and go, and knew—But now, it comes back to the same since time, and people so grudgeful they hate to see you get anything now. They hate to see you win anything now. But back that time, everybody was on one course. Lord, if I think if I could just—If I could just go back and crawl back. Lord have mercy.	22:07
Mary Hebert	Now, you said you first got married when you were 16?	22:32
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	22:39
Mary Hebert	And you met your husband when you were work—Where'd you meet your husband?	22:40
Josephine Baker McCray	When I was nursing that baby. Uh-huh.	22:45
Mary Hebert	Hi.	22:58
Josephine Baker McCray	When I was nursing that baby, I meet my husband, right there.	22:58
Mary Hebert	Did he work for that family?	22:59
Josephine Baker McCray	What family?	23:02
Mary Hebert	The family that you were taking care of the baby for.	23:03
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no, no. He was working for another man they called Dave Baker. Dave Baker. He was working for a man they called Dave Baker when I met him.	23:05
Mary Hebert	And after you got married, what did he do for a living? Did he still work for Baker.	23:15
Josephine Baker McCray	He worked for him until he moved on down in, next to my home. Yeah, he move on down in Clarendon County, into my home.	23:20
Mary Hebert	So y'all moved back to where your parents lived?	23:31
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. I didn't direct know what I was doing. Just direct, now, ain't even from the story. I feel my, I will tell you, I married to keep him working. They don't need me to tell no stories.	23:34
Mary Hebert	And you didn't have to work after you got married?	23:55
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no. Not when I stayed with him up there. No. Uh-uh. Because he hired, I mean, and all I had to do was lay down and sleep and cook me something to eat. There was all these people feeding me. They was working, he was working. I wouldn't have had nothing to do but sleep all I wanted when I first met him.	23:57
Mary Hebert	And we were talking about Hoover's time before. What was it like around here during Hoover's time and Roosevelt's time?	24:16
Josephine Baker McCray	I got to tell the truth. I eat more fish in Hoover's time than I'd ever eaten in my life. Because he would go in Manning and get them and eat them, in the phone, in the back, and then he could say, I can tell the truth. I done well. In myself, far as I knew. As far as I knew, I like Hoover's time all right. I'm a turnkey. They don't need to make a—I ain't going on no stump. Because you got to tell it like it is now. I don't perceive much a difference.	24:24
Mary Hebert	So, you always had enough food and—	24:59
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. My papa always had fill us a plate, and I didn't—He always had a plate and it didn't mean any different to me. [indistinct 00:25:11] Always had a meal. Go kill hog, and had so much hog and things. And cows they killed, and I didn't know the difference.	25:03
Mary Hebert	Did you notice some other people had a harder time?	25:26
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah, I notice some other people had a harder time, but we didn't have it. He did come there and get that, them how people had to live all the time, they'd come back and go with him, but he, my papa wasn't, he wasn't just what you call a slow leak, he was up enough to be having a little commissary, they used to call it.	25:29
Mary Hebert	He had a commissary?	25:48
Josephine Baker McCray	Commissary. You know what they call it when they, a little stoop.	25:48
Mary Hebert	Yeah, a commissary. So people would buy from him?	25:48
Josephine Baker McCray	Come and get.	25:48
Mary Hebert	And he'd let them have it?	26:00
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, you know, the reasonable man thing. Reasonable, yeah.	26:02
Mary Hebert	Where would you have to go, to go do shopping, buy dry goods. Did you have to come all the way to Manning?	26:06
Josephine Baker McCray	Or Olanta.	26:11
Mary Hebert	Olanta.	26:11
Josephine Baker McCray	Mm-hmm. Yeah, Olanta. Olanta and New Zion. New Zion had a store up there with coffee in it.	26:12
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm.	26:20
Josephine Baker McCray	No makeup, dresses, but cloth that my mama could sew. And all you go to do is go right there to New Zion, because had bolts of cloth up there, plenty of them.	26:21
Mary Hebert	Did you ever travel when you were growing up or later on? Did you go to New York or—	26:32
Josephine Baker McCray	No. No, no, no, no. I never did travel. I travel now, since I grew up and since I married. And since I married—I grew up, I lived in New York, Connecticut and everything. You know, what you call a person—Different place I've been since I'm—Different place I've been and I'm back now. Different. Since I, before my mama died, she used to keep my children, I used to leave them.	26:38
Mary Hebert	When was this about? Was it in the '50s or '60s?	27:04
Josephine Baker McCray	'50s, '50s.	27:04
Mary Hebert	What'd y'all drive?	27:13
Josephine Baker McCray	Oh, we went on the bus.	27:14
Mary Hebert	Y'all went on the bus?	27:15
Josephine Baker McCray	Mm-hmm.	27:16
Mary Hebert	So at that time, you had to ride in the back of the bus and those kinds of things?	27:17
Josephine Baker McCray	No.	27:21
Mary Hebert	No?	27:21
Josephine Baker McCray	I ain't never had to ride in the back of no bus, due to the [indistinct 00:27:26] No.	27:22
Mary Hebert	You never rode in the back?	27:26
Josephine Baker McCray	No, not—Yeah, if it's too full for me to get in the front.	27:27
Mary Hebert	But you never rode because they made you ride in the back?	27:31
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no, no, no, no. I ain't mean no harm, but I ain't been that time. It wasn't that time. I seen it been done quick. That woman had done—Somebody had done picked that up then, but somebody had stopped that. Because I ain't never just had to go in the backseat of a bus on the sake of no [indistinct 00:27:53]. I can give and take. I ain't never, I ain't get that back, that much of—Because I just tell you, I was going to, I was kind of late then, myself. I done been raised up and raised people. I just wouldn't have traveled hardly.	27:33
Mary Hebert	Mm-hmm.	28:10
Josephine Baker McCray	Because I done been raised up with White people. No, I just wouldn't hold that. But you all know, I sit, you sit, you sit on the seat with White people, anywhere. If they go to the back, you go to the back. If you want to go. I ain't never done say you have to go to the back.	28:10
Mary Hebert	And you were this way because you grew up with White people and saw that they were the same as you?	28:24
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, yeah. That's right. Just the same as me. That's right. And it didn't worry me. See, I would get on that bus with those White people. Didn't worry me. Some you get on there with, they'll look off from you. But that all they could do is look off from you. They couldn't do nothing but look off from you. And I didn't mind that. And some you get on, they're so friendly. There's some friendly people in the world anywhere you go. I'm going to tell it like it is. Anywhere you go, you find some friendly people. And you find some what ain't friends.	28:27
Mary Hebert	When y'all were traveling, would y'all go up and visit people?	29:03
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	29:06
Mary Hebert	Did you have family up there?	29:07
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, I got all of my children up in Connecticut, moved.	29:08
Mary Hebert	They all moved to Connecticut?	29:11
Josephine Baker McCray	Most all of them, since they was young. Mm-hmm.	29:12
Mary Hebert	Now when you had your children, did you have to have a midwife?	29:17
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	29:20
Mary Hebert	To deliver them?	29:20
Josephine Baker McCray	That's all I had. I ain't never deliver a baby in a hospital. My mother. My mother deliver all my children but one.	29:25
Mary Hebert	Would she deliver other people's children, too?	29:33
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	29:35
Mary Hebert	And what if they got sick, would you go to a doctor, or was there—	29:37
Josephine Baker McCray	No, and the doc would come.	29:38
Mary Hebert	The doctor would come.	29:38
Josephine Baker McCray	You know, you go, while you're on your feet going. But you know, whenever you go to deliver, if you couldn't deliver, the midwife called the doc.	29:45
Mary Hebert	Yeah. But what if one of your children was sick? Would you bring them into town?	29:52
Josephine Baker McCray	In the doctor, yeah. Doctor right out in New Zion, plenty of them. See your phone. Right at New Zion, you tell the baby you used to carry with you and went to New Zion. Dr. Beasley, Dr. Charlan Gammer, Dr. Pittman Gammer. You'd take them right on to them. Yeah.	29:58
Mary Hebert	Do you remember any kind of controversies in your community regarding race relations? You know, they filed a suit in Clarendon County for the school integration. Do you remember that kind of stuff happening in the '50s, with the NAACP and that?	30:22
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, I remember somebody, one man, Mr. Stamos and Villa, yeah, when the integration was coming through. I remember he sent his children off to school, and they tried to make it hard for him. Well, they make it kind of hard. Somebody. The other people help him, get [indistinct 00:31:09] and things.	30:39
Mary Hebert	So, the White people wouldn't sell to him?	31:11
Josephine Baker McCray	Huh?	31:14
Mary Hebert	The White people wouldn't sell to him? Is that what—	31:14
Josephine Baker McCray	They just wouldn't bother with him, no way, shape or form. Wouldn't let him have anything much.	31:17
Mary Hebert	What was his name again?	31:21
Josephine Baker McCray	Emerson Wheeler.	31:23
Mary Hebert	Emerson Wheeler?	31:24
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, my papa cousin, yeah.	31:26
Mary Hebert	That was your father's cousin, you said? Did your father help him?	31:30
Josephine Baker McCray	My pa is dead.	31:41
Mary Hebert	You said, by that time?	31:41
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, he couldn't help him. Couldn't help him. But that man was over in Manning there, he helped him. Reverend [Delay 00:31:53]	31:48
Mary Hebert	Did you know Reverend Delay?	31:53
Josephine Baker McCray	How you say?	31:54
Mary Hebert	Did you know Reverent Delay?	31:56
Josephine Baker McCray	No, wait a minute. I know he, I believe I vote no one but him.	31:58
Mary Hebert	So you don't know him?	32:04
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, my mama knew him.	32:05
Mary Hebert	Oh, your mama knew him?	32:07
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, my mama had knew him, because I knew she used to say this was the Reverend Delay. But I didn't never did remember the Reverend. That Reverend Delay, I think was in her time, because I used to hear her talk on him plenty. But I think these others was just like, Mr. F[indistinct 00:32:27] go and have something, doing well, but he was the only one what that stood out there and just stood out there.	32:07
Mary Hebert	And fought it?	32:37
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, he stood out there and fought it. Sure he did.	32:39
Mary Hebert	Did your family belong to the NAACP? Did your husband?	32:45
Josephine Baker McCray	Uh-uh.	32:48
Mary Hebert	Not in that time?	32:49
Josephine Baker McCray	Uh-uh. No. I had a brother was.	32:50
Mary Hebert	Did he? Was there any problems with him belonging to the NAACP, did—	32:54
Josephine Baker McCray	No, and I don't think anyone ever say. I never heard him say so. No, I didn't heard him say so, now, I'm going to tell the truth, if it was. I never did join, and he had joined. I never did follow him up. In other words, I never did follow up with one thing You know, he was a Mason, and I followed him up in that.	33:00
Mary Hebert	He was a Mason?	33:19
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	33:20
Mary Hebert	And you didn't like that?	33:20
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, I like it. That's why I say, I followed him up in it. I got sistered to him in it.	33:23
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay.	33:25
Josephine Baker McCray	I got sistered to him in it, because I love it. I love it. But I just never did understand, so I never did just follow it then. NAACP much. I never did follow it too much. I went to programs now with it. I love the program they have.	33:31
Mary Hebert	What were their programs like?	33:48
Josephine Baker McCray	They were just like singing and people were talking and all, dropping judgment, meeting each other, and seeing a preacher preaching. I been there plenty of times.	33:51
Mary Hebert	They would hold the meetings in churches?	34:01
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, yeah. From church to church. They still be. I calls church when I feel it. No, I do. I'd say I ought to join, but I got a little old. I say, I got a little bit too old, I believe. Because when I—Well I got a son now, he's a watch you call him? A head of it.	34:04
Mary Hebert	Jerome. Yeah, he's the one who gave me your name.	34:27
Josephine Baker McCray	He is.	34:33
Mary Hebert	Yeah.	34:35
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	34:35
Mary Hebert	Yeah, I talked to him on the phone, and he gave me your name.	34:35
Josephine Baker McCray	You talked to him on the phone?	34:35
Mary Hebert	Yeah.	34:35
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. You think well of him?	34:38
Mary Hebert	Yeah.	34:38
Josephine Baker McCray	You do?	34:38
Mary Hebert	We're going to meet him next time he's in town?	34:40
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah?	34:44
Mary Hebert	Yeah. Because there are three of us down here doing interviews, so we're going to meet with him.	34:46
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, meet with him. He's nice.	34:49
Mary Hebert	Yeah, he's been in Charleston, so we've been calling each other on the phone, talking to him.	34:52
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Well, that's good.	34:55
Mary Hebert	When did you marry his father?	34:57
Josephine Baker McCray	I believe in the '60-something. I believe in the '60-something—	34:58
Mary Hebert	So your first husband died?	35:08
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, my first husband had got in an accident.	35:10
Mary Hebert	Did he have to go off and fight in World War II? Your first husband.	35:13
Josephine Baker McCray	Uh-uh. Sure didn't. Atlanta did, though.	35:15
Mary Hebert	Who did?	35:15
Josephine Baker McCray	I said, Atlanta get it. Atlanta get it. Back in that time, you see, it had too much of children. But he was just the right fight.	35:29
Mary Hebert	His age, he was just the right age.	35:30
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, the right age and right type and all they say.	35:32
Mary Hebert	How many children did you have by that time?	35:36
Josephine Baker McCray	Mm, I had, let me see. Novell, Aldo, Earthell, Dave and Louie. I had five babies.	35:43
Mary Hebert	So, in the forties you had five of them. That was too many for him to go fight.	35:49
Josephine Baker McCray	You know, they have too many, they want, back in that time, they didn't want a man with so many kids. And I think—That's where I hear, that where I hear Mr. Plovisy. He say, "That's all what keep his arms down." Because you know the White people buy big shots for people that knew where this thing. And he said, "That's all what's keeping out, them children. They didn't want to mind all them children."	35:54
Mary Hebert	Did you always live with your first husband on your family's farm? Did you always live out in Clarendon County near your parents?	36:14
Josephine Baker McCray	Mm-hmm. Always.	36:21
Mary Hebert	And who did he work for, your husband? Did he work for your father? Did your father give him some land to farm, or—?	36:24
Josephine Baker McCray	Oh no. No, he didn't give him no land to farm. I reckon he'd a give it to him if he had to farm it. But I was miserable working, and I didn't feel any better laying down. That's going to let him have some, I reckon.	36:32
Mary Hebert	So who did he work for?	36:53
Josephine Baker McCray	He worked. He sharecropped. I have a sharecrop [indistinct 00:37:01].	36:54
Mary Hebert	But y'all didn't live on that land, did you?	37:01
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	37:02
Mary Hebert	Y'all lived on the land you were sharecropping?	37:02
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, yeah. We stayed out, we sharecropping, too. If you sharecrop, you have that, you would get a house, and stay in that house.	37:09
Mary Hebert	What was that house like?	37:12
Josephine Baker McCray	Good.	37:14
Mary Hebert	How many rooms did it have?	37:16
Josephine Baker McCray	Four.	37:19
Mary Hebert	Four?	37:19
Josephine Baker McCray	Mm-hmm.	37:20
Mary Hebert	Now, I've heard a lot of those houses have these big cracks in the ceilings and the floors. Did yours?	37:21
Josephine Baker McCray	One time. Not but once. Not but once, I'm going to tell the truth, not but one. But me and my husband was renting then. Renting then. Nothing but one. And then they fixed it up, fixed them cracks up.	37:26
Mary Hebert	So you didn't have any more cracks.	37:41
Josephine Baker McCray	Uh-uh.	37:43
Mary Hebert	Now, when he was sharecropping, did your kids have to work out with him in the field?	37:43
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no. Uh-uh. I ain't have no kids big enough.	37:48
Mary Hebert	So they were too small. And you didn't work either?	37:51
Josephine Baker McCray	No, I'm going to tell you, my husband used to let me mind my kids.	37:55
Mary Hebert	Uh-huh.	38:00
Josephine Baker McCray	I got to tell the truth, ain't no need to do all that, mind my kids.	38:01
Mary Hebert	So the person he was sharecropping for didn't make him make you work out in the field?	38:03
Josephine Baker McCray	Who all is going to make me do that?	38:08
Mary Hebert	I don't know, but sometimes they tried.	38:10
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no, no, no. Uh-uh. Ain't nobody going to make me work in no fields. I'll just stand and then scream. Ain't but two people going to make me work out in no field, and that was my mama and papa. At that time. I just never was like this, now. And nobody make me but my papa and my mama. Your fist could be as white as the dribble of snow—	38:29
Mary Hebert	And they wouldn't make you work out in the field.	38:39
Josephine Baker McCray	No. No, you couldn't make me work in your field, no. I didn't never did have to work in no field. I stay where I can just be kind of way. If they ask me that, I'm going to do something. And if it don't suit, I don't suit you, I come to my house. I ain't never did sharecrop, that's why my rent. More than I—My husband think, when my husband die, he was renting. And that was like you're in your own place.	38:43
Mary Hebert	So, if you're renting, you have the land—	39:09
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	39:13
Mary Hebert	—and you just pay so much a year, and you—	39:13
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, right. You play so much a year, and you're just there. No, I'm just like this. I'm clean. I know this much. You should read the Bible. Do you read your Bible? All of these, nothing but two brothers' children, Ham and Sham. And after these two brothers, and God see fit to have that miracle work. He see fit to have that miracle to work too, so somebody children could be Black and some White. That's right, because he called Noah to drink the wine, and called the boy, Noah's son, to spread the quilt over Noah, so that'd have the color of us. And I know, right now, you might not accept it, but I'm your first cousin. That's right. You might not accept it, but I your first cousin. And everybody going to accept that, and everybody'll love their cousin. That's right.	39:15
Josephine Baker McCray	But everybody don't understand. They don't read the Bible, and they don't understand. I understand. And but now, anybody that don't want to be, I don't push, to force it. Because I figure you don't know. And the Bible say, "He that know my will and do ignore me, be with a many stripe, but he that don't know, well they be them a lot anyhow." And so I just going let a fellow be with that, with his stripes, if he want to be with them. But that'll be his business. That's how I read from it. But I knew good and well, cause to nobody can't change what God do. And God, I die a Black and you White. And he done that to form his miracle. But the people don't accept what God do, some of them.	40:33
Mary Hebert	That's right.	41:29
Josephine Baker McCray	They don't accept everything God do. But I'll tell you, I read the Bible. I know about myself. But I don't try to push myself on nobody who don't want to read it.	41:31
Mary Hebert	I have to turn this tape over.	41:40

Mary Hebert	Did your mother stress that and your parents stress you learning about God and about the Bible?	0:02
Josephine Baker McCray	Yes, lord. Yeah, you had to do.	0:07
Mary Hebert	Would they read the Bible at home?	0:10
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. You had to do. You had to do. You had to do or get a whipping. I'm going to tell you. You had to read something out of the Bible every day to my mother and father just like you read your school book. You couldn't go to bed until you read some page or something Bible and read them school—You couldn't do. Yeah they was real strict. Real strict. Real strict. Well, in that time, I didn't want Bible. I got it. So [indistinct 00:00:49] a person don't want it. Your parents can make you accept it. Now I got, I accept it. I can read what I want to read. [indistinct 00:00:59] reading.	0:12
Josephine Baker McCray	I'm 84 years old. My last baby, I raised in Korea. One of my daughters. Son, [indistinct 00:01:12] writing. I can do it myself at that. And I know gotta do is ask God for what you want, and I asked my heavenly Father to help me to stay clothed in my right mind where I can do as I want to do spiritually and temporally. But don't let me go further [indistinct 00:01:41]. Yeah. That's right.	1:01
Mary Hebert	You're thankful that they taught you to read and write.	1:45
Josephine Baker McCray	Yes. Ooh, lord. I'm glad. I got some beating about it because I didn't need to do it. But oh, I just be thanking [indistinct 00:01:56] for that beating right now.	1:47
Mary Hebert	Would they teach you at home, too? You said—	1:58
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah. Well, everybody needed to teach the child at home. Everybody needed to teach their children at home so the teacher won't have so much trouble getting the school out. That's right. I teach my children at home as best I can go. I sure teach my children. And then when they get to school, they know their lessons. Teachers don't have no trouble with them. I teach my children at home see if they're learning anything. I had [indistinct 00:02:32]. If you don't start before you send your child to school, you ain't know what happening. I wouldn't do that. It's been tough on them, but I bring my children just like my father and mother bring me.	2:01
Josephine Baker McCray	I bring them reading the Bible. I bring them reading their school book. I tell them don't put no school book ahead of your Bible because if you don't have Jesus, you don't have nothing. I tell my children that. That's right. But [indistinct 00:03:02]. But if you got Jesus, you got it all.	2:46
Mary Hebert	And that was something you told your children over and over?	3:08
Josephine Baker McCray	Over and over, and I just still say it today because I know if. If you ain't got Jesus, you're pitiful. There's one thing about Jesus. He don't care about this here Black because [indistinct 00:03:28]. He don't care about how you come. This says you be humble. His Son, Jesus Christ, went down in the grave. He never told Him to go down there now. You go down there and redeem whoever one that comes [indistinct 00:03:50]. Don't mess around and do it for White or Colored people. No, you do it for the world. He never said that.	3:12
Mary Hebert	No. He said you do it for everybody, didn't He?	3:55
Josephine Baker McCray	Everybody. He said, "You go down there and do it." And if a fellow don't want to accept it, that's your business. Everybody got a right to [indistinct 00:04:08], and that [indistinct 00:04:10]. Everybody got it, White and Colored. And so if you get mistreated down here, you sure won't be mistreated as long as you get up there. And I don't mind taking a little job [indistinct 00:04:29]. That's all. That home down here. I don't treasure it anymore. I didn't. But I just said, like I been saying now, some people say about—Some people just [indistinct 00:04:50] and scrub and scrub and scrub and scrub preachers.	3:58
Josephine Baker McCray	[indistinct 00:04:56], but no. When you's a sinner, you a sinner. You're blind. You're blind fool. And I been blind fool, and when I see, I see. And I'll just tell anybody, I'll tell it just like it is. When I was blind, [indistinct 00:05:16], that sin was good to me. Just like grace. I didn't know the difference in it because [indistinct 00:05:23]. Anybody enjoyed, I probably did. But it's better. [indistinct 00:05:27]. I never did do nothing so bad [indistinct 00:05:33] so bad I regret. I ain't saying that. I ain't never. But when I was out there doing the—I used to like to fight now.	4:53
Mary Hebert	You liked to fight?	5:46
Josephine Baker McCray	Ooh, when I was coming up, boy, I'd make a fight.	5:47
Mary Hebert	Who would you fight with?	5:49
Josephine Baker McCray	Anybody. Just do something to fight people. You just pick at children. I had to fight them same White people I'm telling you about. [indistinct 00:05:58]. We would fight back and then come back, hug and kiss. But I didn't like it.	5:51
Mary Hebert	Did y'all fist fight or just argue?	6:08
Josephine Baker McCray	No, we [indistinct 00:06:11] people. [indistinct 00:06:17]. We'd fight with a switch, at least coming up little. Fight with a switch.	6:10
Mary Hebert	Did you ever get in trouble for that?	6:23
Josephine Baker McCray	Your mama and papa would beat you. Sure, they would. Did you fight? Sure.	6:25
Mary Hebert	What about if you're at someone else's house and you got in trouble? Would they punish you, the parents of the other kids?	6:31
Josephine Baker McCray	No, [indistinct 00:06:40]. You go to somebody else's house—You ain't had to go to nobody else back in my time when I was coming up.	6:38
Mary Hebert	They always—	6:45
Josephine Baker McCray	Everybody knew your parents. Everybody. If anybody was seeing you wrong, they would get a stick. I got beaten [indistinct 00:06:54] people, Colored and White. You didn't have to be no mama. [indistinct 00:06:59] because everybody was your mother.	6:45
Mary Hebert	So any adult could punish you?	7:08
Josephine Baker McCray	Any could whip you. Any dad could whip you if it be in a—It didn't have to be nobody [indistinct 00:07:18] father or mother [indistinct 00:07:19] adult. Sister or brother can whip you. Anybody [indistinct 00:07:27] whip you. Anybody what know you wrong just whip you. And you better not—If you go home and tell it, you better not worry over it because you'll sure get another one. That's right. Ain't no joke. Man, crazy. There's a lot of things [indistinct 00:07:47]. I had a life back then.	7:10
Mary Hebert	So it was hard. You made it through and all.	7:51
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to tell you, I had a good life back there [indistinct 00:07:52]. Just like I have it now.	7:52
Mary Hebert	It's a good life now, too?	7:54
Josephine Baker McCray	What you say?	7:54
Mary Hebert	It's a good life now, too?	7:54
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, with me. With me, I'm sure. [indistinct 00:07:55] forever lost if they had to live like me now. It's better now. [indistinct 00:08:24] farther along still go farther. It's better, farther along. Yeah, it's better than it was back in—Yeah. [indistinct 00:08:36] better than it was back yonder.	7:54
Mary Hebert	When your first husband died, were your children still young?	8:38
Josephine Baker McCray	Well, my oldest one was—My oldest child wasn't quite 17.	8:42
Mary Hebert	What did you do? How did you make a living? How did you get food on the table in that?	8:51
Josephine Baker McCray	I got food on the table. I got food on my table. I had some brothers.	8:53
Mary Hebert	They helped you?	9:00
Josephine Baker McCray	They back away for me to get something to eat. But I have to pay for it, but then they come [indistinct 00:09:08] for me. [indistinct 00:09:14]. Yeah.	9:00
Mary Hebert	Did you have to work then?	9:14
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. I worked.	9:21
Mary Hebert	Who'd you work for?	9:22
Josephine Baker McCray	[indistinct 00:09:24]. I'm going to tell the truth [indistinct 00:09:25] tobacco market. I ain't doing no sorts of field work after my husband died. I worked at tobacco market and did work down there and things.	9:25
Mary Hebert	What kind of work did you do at the tobacco market?	9:42
Josephine Baker McCray	Oh, put tobacco on the [indistinct 00:09:42]. And then I grade something, [indistinct 00:09:44].	9:42
Mary Hebert	Were there other women working there?	9:46
Josephine Baker McCray	Oh, lord have mercy, Jesus. Me and my sister and plenty more people.	9:47
Mary Hebert	So what did they do at the market? You would grade it, you say?	9:57
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. I'd pick it out. [indistinct 00:10:03] fast grader. I used to grade tobacco all my life for my papa and his friends. And I just could pick it out. I did get into something [indistinct 00:10:14] coming down, sliding down. I picked [indistinct 00:10:18], and he just [indistinct 00:10:19].	10:00
Mary Hebert	Oh, so you had to pick the bad leaves out?	10:18
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah.	10:18
Mary Hebert	And you'd bind them together?	10:18
Josephine Baker McCray	No. Just throw them down. Throw them downstairs then, and then you throw them downstairs, they had somebody down there to take them out.	10:19
Mary Hebert	So what else did you do at the plant? You said you'd grade the tobacco and—	10:34
Josephine Baker McCray	Tie it.	10:37
Mary Hebert	And tie it. You tied the good leaves together?	10:38
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Tied the [indistinct 00:10:44] together and [indistinct 00:10:47] now. First and second. Now when you're tying it, you're tying it. And you grade it, you're grading it.	10:41
Mary Hebert	You don't do them both at one time.	10:53
Josephine Baker McCray	No.	10:54
Mary Hebert	And how much did you get paid when you were working there? Do you remember how much a week or a day?	10:57
Josephine Baker McCray	Well, you was in the house, you work a week, you'd get about $70.	11:03
Mary Hebert	A week?	11:09
Josephine Baker McCray	$70, yeah. And if you want to work more, get more than that. You do some overtime, like you work on a Sunday. You do good. Good, you work on a Sunday now.	11:10
Mary Hebert	Were there certain times of the year that you had to work more than others? When it was being harvested, you were busier or—	11:25
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. [indistinct 00:11:36]. You had to be busy.	11:31
Mary Hebert	And then after you married Mr. McRay, did you work anymore?	11:41
Josephine Baker McCray	No, no. I didn't work no more. Didn't work no more.	11:44
Mary Hebert	Well, that's about all the questions I have. Is there anything that I didn't cover with you that you want to talk about? Anything I didn't ask you about?	11:54
Josephine Baker McCray	Well, is there anything that you asked me about [indistinct 00:12:11]? No, I done [indistinct 00:12:18].	12:03
Mary Hebert	I'm glad you had the time to meet with me.	12:21
Josephine Baker McCray	[indistinct 00:12:24].	12:23
Mary Hebert	How did you feel, say, when Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember that?	12:34
Josephine Baker McCray	Oh, yeah, man. I remember.	12:39
Mary Hebert	Were people sad around here?	12:41
Josephine Baker McCray	Oh, yes, they were because that was a good man.	12:43
Mary Hebert	Did he do a lot for Black people?	12:45
Josephine Baker McCray	Huh?	12:50
Mary Hebert	Did Kennedy do a lot for Black people?	12:50
Josephine Baker McCray	Oh, yeah. Him and Roosevelt. Him and Roosevelt. Truman.	12:51
Mary Hebert	Truman? What did Truman do?	13:00
Josephine Baker McCray	Truman was the first to do good. Truman [indistinct 00:13:04] people—President Truman, I think the one what tell the people—Humphrey. Was there a president named Humphrey?	13:06
Mary Hebert	Excuse me?	13:15
Josephine Baker McCray	President Truman was a democrat, wasn't he?	13:17
Mary Hebert	Yes, ma'am.	13:25
Josephine Baker McCray	That's why I tell you, I said if the people had do what he had been telling them—But people didn't understand him at the time. I didn't. You would have knowed some of this hard time was coming. And if you was a harvest, you would have get right [indistinct 00:13:37] harvesting and you would have your chicken yard and things fixed, and you wouldn't have to be out there buying all this chicken what people's buying now. You could have had them and raised them. He had said, "Make a way to live at home." Because it was coming. I never did think that, but I had [indistinct 00:13:57] remember that.	13:25
Mary Hebert	That was Hoover that said that?	13:58
Josephine Baker McCray	Truman.	13:59
Mary Hebert	Truman.	14:01
Josephine Baker McCray	Truman.	14:01
Mary Hebert	And what did Roosevelt do? Do you remember Roosevelt?	14:03
Josephine Baker McCray	No, that was a good man. He was a good president. [indistinct 00:14:15]. He sure did. I can remember.	14:14
Mary Hebert	Did he help people here in Clarington County?	14:14
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he helped people everywhere. President Roosevelt and President Truman and President Kennedy helped people everywhere. I think everybody called one of them Abraham. What they call him? Abraham Lincoln.	14:14
Mary Hebert	Abraham Lincoln. Yeah.	14:31
Josephine Baker McCray	I know they took him out.	14:33
Mary Hebert	He's in there, too.	14:35
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Yeah, he's in there. Well, yeah, he's in there, too. And some more presidents—President Carter wasn't bad. He wasn't bad. I want to tell the truth. He wasn't bad, neither. [indistinct 00:14:54]. And some more of them presidents—Well, like I said, God has blessed me the way I can live with all of them. Nixon, Truman, and [indistinct 00:15:12].	14:36
Mary Hebert	I forgot to ask you about your grandparents. Do you remember your grandparents at all?	15:12
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. I remember my grandparents.	15:18
Mary Hebert	Did they ever tell you stories about what life was like when they were growing up?	15:19
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Sure did.	15:22
Mary Hebert	Were they slaves?	15:24
Josephine Baker McCray	No, my grandmama wasn't no slave. Her mother was a slave.	15:27
Mary Hebert	Her mother was a slave.	15:30
Josephine Baker McCray	[indistinct 00:15:34]. Neither one of them wasn't no slave, but their mother was. [indistinct 00:15:42] was slave. Yeah.	15:34
Mary Hebert	Did they tell you about any stories that their grandparents told them, their parents told them about being slaves or about how they got free and those kinds of things? Did you ever hear those stories?	15:44
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. I heard it. I heard it before. [indistinct 00:15:55] heard it. I sure did.	15:54
Mary Hebert	Do you remember any of them? The stories?	16:00
Josephine Baker McCray	I know one of them. One of them was a White man. One of my grandmamas say there's a White man and the old White man, he had slavery. Now she said her mama told her that now. Had slavery, and then the White man had slavery, he'd be in the end of the field and he had hd slaves. And he would have so much for a person to do, and they had to do that or he'd whip them. That was my papa, my mama said. And she said one time, the man's wife was a mean woman. And she was mean, and he [indistinct 00:16:50] certain girl, she was a kind of [indistinct 00:16:53] girl. She wasn't altogether Black. And that man, he wouldn't give that girl as much to do as he did the rest because she'd have to go meet him somewhere in the woods.	16:06
Josephine Baker McCray	And she said he would go out in the woods, and they'd go out in the woods and he shoot that gun, that girl had to go. Girl had to go. And she was [indistinct 00:17:20] man had that girl for his cook. And the wife never loved it, and the wife would just mistreat her and do any kind of harm. And she said one time, said the old owner beat the girl, too. And the owner beat the girl one day, just beat the girl. So they had a son [indistinct 00:17:46], had the girl [indistinct 00:17:49]. And she stuck the machine needle in the girl's hand. [indistinct 00:17:58] And she said [indistinct 00:18:09] cut something, and she cut it and somebody asked her—Somebody who'd been sewing asked her to cut it.	17:05
Josephine Baker McCray	And the old woman tell them, said the girl had cut it. And the girl told them she did not cut it. And the [indistinct 00:18:20], he was mean. [indistinct 00:18:20] and said one [indistinct 00:18:20] treat the girl mean, mean, mean. And she was pregnant, and when her child was born, that child was—And then the girl was pulling and she [indistinct 00:18:21]. And she said [indistinct 00:19:02]. [indistinct 00:19:06] So she said that's what the lady had the baby, come in the world, the baby was living [indistinct 00:19:15]. The baby was just [indistinct 00:19:20]. She was just fighting the girl. I don't know if she know the girl [indistinct 00:19:27] had a husband. But she didn't know if she had a husband.	18:17
Josephine Baker McCray	And they come, and the girl had a baby for the man. And when the girl had a baby for the man, the man take [indistinct 00:19:42] the man build a little house. Had to build a little house out there, and the man would carry that girl [indistinct 00:19:50] and do her good. And she had a [indistinct 00:19:54] baby pretty. His wife's baby just be yawning, [indistinct 00:20:00] doing some kind of funny thing all the time. And slobbering like the [indistinct 00:20:05]. And she said that had made her glad. Made her glad.	19:30
Mary Hebert	So she was glad that the master's baby was Black.	20:06
Josephine Baker McCray	She said her mama—Yeah, glad the master's baby wouldn't do that. Her mama said she's been glad that happened like that.	20:07
Mary Hebert	Oh, I'm sorry.	20:23
Josephine Baker McCray	[indistinct 00:20:25].	20:23
Mary Hebert	So that baby would kind of squirm around and wiggle and—	20:24
Josephine Baker McCray	That's right.	20:24
Mary Hebert	—move funny.	20:29
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah, move funny. And stayed out of the way and grow up and let that child grow up and be big like a man doing that.	20:30
Mary Hebert	So he still wiggled around kind of?	20:37
Josephine Baker McCray	Yeah. Just like a man.	20:38
Mary Hebert	And jerked his body around?	20:39
Josephine Baker McCray	The girl put a plague on that women so she—	20:42
Mary Hebert	Because she treated the slaves so badly.	20:43
Josephine Baker McCray	Right. That's right. Because the girl had to have been doing what she was doing.	20:43
Mary Hebert	Okay. Well, I'll stop the tape now.	20:52

Item Info

Title:

Josephine McCray interview recording, 1995 June 27

Date:

June 27, 1995

Creator:

McCray, Josephine Baker

Contributor:

Hebert, Mary

Description:

Name: Josephine Baker McCray; Date of birth: 1918-10-23; Place of birth: New Zion, SC; Occupation(s): housewife; tobacco market worker; nursemaid; Residence: Manning, SC
Informant ID: 1222; Interviewed by: Mary Hebert.

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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RL00170-CS-1491
8dd02a83-2b6e-4ada-8147-3a4c62fc5888
behindtheveil
3afa4c5f-62b4-4738-8c68-c40a477bdab7
ark:/87924/r4x068n6f
3afa4c5f-62b4-4738-8c68-c40a477bdab7

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Josephine McCray interview recording, 1995 June 27

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1. Josephine McCray administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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