John Rutledge interview recording, 1994 June 24
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| Paul Ortiz | Mr. Rutledge, would you tell me when and where you were born and a little bit about the area that you grew up in? | 0:06 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. Perry County, Marion, Alabama. A place they call Sprott. | 0:14 |
| Paul Ortiz | What did your family do for a living? | 0:19 |
| John Rutledge | We're a sharecropper, what little bit we did do. | 0:36 |
| Paul Ortiz | What kind of crops? | 0:40 |
| John Rutledge | Well, cotton, corn, peas, potatoes. Cane, make syrup out of. Velvet bean, peanuts. Think that about covered it, I guess. There's okra, collard greens, cabbage greens, tomatoes, pumpkins, raised all of that. Watermelon, cantaloupe, sweet potatoes, raised all that down there. Yeah. | 0:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you have brothers and sisters? | 1:26 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. I got one sister living, one brother living. 13 of us in all, but all of them gone but three. | 1:28 |
| Paul Ortiz | Wow. But you grew up with 12 other brothers and sisters? | 1:36 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. I was younger than a whole lot of them. Yeah. | 1:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | What year were you born? | 1:47 |
| John Rutledge | Born in 1914. | 1:49 |
| Paul Ortiz | What was life like in Perry County? | 1:58 |
| John Rutledge | Well, it was out in the country. Well, we were out in the country a long way from any town, city. Of course, the city's in Perry County too, but where we were, we're way out in the woods, like edge of the woods. A whole lot of woods around where I was born at, but at the edge of the woods. Used to possum hunt at night, rabbit hunt in the daytime. Squirrel hunt, fish them little creeks and things around there. Did all that, but would possum hunt at night. Had possum dogs there, hunted at night with torches, a lot of torches. We enjoyed it in that time. We had a good time in that time doing that. See what I'm saying? Yeah. | 2:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | Who would you go hunting with? | 2:49 |
| John Rutledge | Me and my brother, we used to go. Then after that, after I got grown, got up here, me and some old friends, we'd go together, rabbit hunt. Me and my brother used to do a whole lot of possum hunting at night. Had possum dogs scare them up a tree. Shake the tree and they'll fall out, then we'll get them. A whole lot of fun in that. Yeah. | 2:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you know your grandparents? | 3:19 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. His name's Bob Rutledge. I remember him, yeah. Now, how old he was, I don't know. When he was born, I don't know, but I just remember him. Yeah. I can't remember when he was born and things of that nature. | 3:20 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you remember him telling you stories as a child? | 3:55 |
| John Rutledge | I wasn't much on telling them fairytales. I wasn't much on that, nah. Yeah. No, I wasn't. | 4:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | Would he ever talk about his life growing up? | 4:08 |
| John Rutledge | You're talking about my granddaddy? | 4:12 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 4:14 |
| John Rutledge | I can't recall, it's been so long. Yeah. We kept his picture a long time, but it disappeared somewhere. I don't know. That's a little bit too far back down the road for me. I can't answer too many questions about him. Yeah. | 4:16 |
| Paul Ortiz | Was there a place or a time in Perry County or an event that would bring people together? | 4:41 |
| John Rutledge | Like a family reunion or something like that? | 4:54 |
| Paul Ortiz | Sure. A family reunion. | 4:56 |
| John Rutledge | You mean bring White people and Black people together, is that what you're talking about or just— | 4:57 |
| Paul Ortiz | Just Black people. | 4:59 |
| John Rutledge | Most of the way they come together back at that time, that family reunion thing, that started here since then. We'd come together at churches, have what they call soul sessions, conventions, and dinner on the ground and all that kind of stuff. That bring them together a whole lot. Yeah. Come up these late years, family reunion, that's where they'd meet up. All that kind of stuff, yeah. | 5:03 |
| Paul Ortiz | Was there ever a time when Black and White people would be together? | 5:30 |
| John Rutledge | Not back in that time. Sure didn't. No more than the Black peoples had to go work for the White people in the field. They'd pick cotton together then, things like that. That's the only time. Other than that, they didn't get no get-together. They didn't go to church together. At least, they don't do it much hardly now. They didn't go to school together back in that time like they do now. Of course, you already know that. That's the late year when they started Black children and White children going to school together. | 5:34 |
| John Rutledge | Way back in that time had it rough. White children would ride in the school bus and the Black children had to walk. They'd pass them on the road in the school bus and holler at them and yell at them. The fact we had to walk—Back in that time, Black children, wouldn't let them ride no school bus, and Uncle Sam was paying for all of it. See what I'm saying? That's the way it was back in that time. I remember that well. Yeah. White children been having school buses, been busing way back. Long as I can remember, they had buses to haul them, but the Black people's children back a few years ago, desegregated that. So all of them have to ride the bus. You ride the bus. You go to the same school and things like that. Back at that time they didn't do it, no sir, no. | 6:13 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you remember as a child watching that bus go by? | 7:16 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. We used to be on the road walking, going to school, and the bus would pass us with a load of them going to they school. We'd be walking, they'd be on the bus. I remember that well. Yeah. But you think about that, but it's different now. Can't look back. You can think about back, but ain't nothing you can do back there. Ain't nothing we could do about it. But thank God, they got it now where they can go, they ride the bus too and go to school. That's all we can thank God for. But back in that time, just look at them and that's all. | 7:16 |
| Paul Ortiz | What were race relations like in Perry County? | 8:03 |
| John Rutledge | Well, let's tell the truth about it now. Some of the White folk was just as nasty as anything you'll want to see. They'd get in front of, in the public with Black peoples and take leaks and things, and Black women and all that kind of stuff. I remember all of that. They'd do that. Matter of fact, they'd say things to Black women and get away with it, but it wasn't nowhere in the world for a Black man to say something like that to a White woman and get away with it, back in that time. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. The White guy would get drunk and take a leak anywhere, didn't make any difference who was looking at him. He did that. But it's different now. We don't hardly look back and think about back there now. I don't think about what went on back then, but I know what went on. Nothing you can do about it, you see. | 8:09 |
| Paul Ortiz | What were some other memories that you have with Perry County, your earliest childhood memory? | 9:15 |
| John Rutledge | Well, we had a good time when we had it. Yeah. Enjoyed the way we had it. That's the best we could do. We enjoyed it. Yeah. | 9:31 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you ever hear anybody when you were growing up, any of the elders, talk about slavery? | 9:53 |
| John Rutledge | Oh, yeah. My daddy and them used to talk about it. I think my granddaddy, I think he was in slavery times. I believe he was a little bit. They used to talk about it. | 10:07 |
| John Rutledge | They had a fairytale. I don't know whether it's true or not. They had a Black man jumping a rope for buttered biscuits. They enjoyed seeing him jump that rope. They had a big container thing there full of buttered biscuits. If he jumped that rope, he'd get a buttered biscuit. Heard them talk about all of that. Yeah. | 10:26 |
| John Rutledge | Then I don't know, they tell me they used to kill slaves. I don't know now. I don't know nothing about that. Black slaves, used to kill them, trade them and all that kind of thing. I think they got history on that though. Yeah. | 10:56 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. I mean, they do have some history, but I'm wondering about the stories that don't get recorded. That's why I asked you. | 11:20 |
| John Rutledge | Oh. Well— | 11:29 |
| Paul Ortiz | Because a lot of those stories just haven't been recorded. | 11:29 |
| John Rutledge | Probably did a whole lot they didn't record. Because with slave pictures and things, I'm pretty sure that there's something to that where they'd tie folks to trees and things and whup them. Slaves, whup them. I'm pretty sure they did that back in slavery time. But Black folk lived through all of that. The Lord blessed them, took care of them. They lived through all of that and made good peoples out of them. I don't know why. I don't guess it, some parts, I don't know whether any place into slavery now nowhere in the world, I don't know. It might be. | 11:40 |
| John Rutledge | I've heard of some places in Mississippi, way back in Mississippi Delta, somewhere back there, that they got people still under slavery, but I doubt it. It's a terrible thing to look at the story of the slave, the slave story, to look at that picture. I couldn't stand to look at that picture about slavery time, what he was doing. He was tying them to them trees and things and whupping him with a big bull whip and whup him and whup him and whup him. | 12:36 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you remember violence against Black people in Perry County when you were there? | 13:16 |
| John Rutledge | Us boys, we used to fight and wrestle and all that kind of stuff. We'd fight. We'd shake it off and go ahead on. Every once in a while, very seldom, you heard tell of another Black guy killing another Black guy, very seldom you heard tell about that. Yeah. You wouldn't hardly hear tell about that. I know a White guy down there in Perry County, I never will forget. He did a lowdown thing. He was running a grist mill, and it was a White schoolteacher come up there, was teaching school back up in there in the country, rooming with him. They had a Black guy working for them, I guess, about a day for wages or something. | 13:25 |
| John Rutledge | That room that the schoolteacher was in, that night he'd taken some smut or something, painted his face all black. I remember that well. He tried to break in there and ravage that woman and lay it on that Black guy, what he had working for him. He had it going until this man that did it, before trial time he got drunk and was up at that school. Met another guy. This guy was named Ben Stone that he met. A bunch of brothers of him, they were rough fellows. Them Stone were some rough fellows. They didn't take no wooden nickel, and they treated Black folk fair long as they stayed in their place. I'm going to tell you right now. | 14:24 |
| John Rutledge | He didn't believe it to start with. This guy asked Ben Stone, was he going to the—What they call it back in them times, you had to call it hanging. Some of them used to call that neck breaking, but they call it going to the hanging or hang the Black guy up trying to ravage that White woman. Ben Stone said, "I ain't thought nothing about it. I don't think I'm going. Really, as a matter of fact, I don't believe he did it." That's what he told him. That's where the thing got started. | 15:26 |
| John Rutledge | He said, "Well, you don't believe he did it. Who you think did it?" Said, "I don't have the least idea, but I don't believe he did it." One word to another, he got mad. This guy who did the deed, he started up on Ben Stone with a knife or something, and Ben Stone had his shotgun around there hung. Ben Stone had to stop him. He shot him. Before he shot him, he told him, said, "I did it, but that nigger going to be charged for it." That's what he said and told this chap, Ben Stone, said, "You may not be living to testify and say I said that." He started up on him with a knife, and Ben Stone shot him and killed him. | 16:00 |
| John Rutledge | Ben Stone testified. What he said and everything, that cleared that Black guy. Yeah. That lady said, to start with, she was tussling with him and feeling his head and things. The average White man, he got a little longer hair than the Black man. She said that Black man's hair wasn't as long as that hair that she was grabbing of that man up on his head. But they didn't pay that no attention. They still was going to hang, that Black guy name of Miles Griffin. That was his name. If they hadn't got to fighting and that man said that, and that's all what cleared that Black guy. They was carrying him to jail. Police arrived on a horse. They had him handcuffed, leading him, like you do a cow, send him to jail. That was down in Perry County. But that cleared that Black guy right there, kept them from hanging him. Yeah. I remember all of that. | 17:01 |
| John Rutledge | I remember another case down there. I had a first cousin. Back in those days, you had to meet the postman down there to get a stamp and mail a letter. Can't just go up and buy stamps now. You had to get the stamp from the postman, meet him down there and get that stamp from him and get the letter back to him and put that stamp on it, give it back to him. She went down there to mail a letter, and he tried to ravage her. She broke loose from him and run. They're ginning cotton at that time. Down at the gin, this Black guy had nerve enough to tackle a man about what his wife said. A whole lot of Black guys wouldn't have had that kind of nerve. | 18:08 |
| John Rutledge | She said, "Your wife told a damn lie. I didn't do that." One word to another. They had some old brake sticks on them wagons, hauling cotton in wagons then. He took that brake stick, I think, and hit that Black guy that came in. I wasn't down there. I was just listening at them telling it. Knocked him out. Knocked him down and going to hit him again, but the Black guy got a knife or something. He opened his mouth and he cut him. They got the Black guy and put him in prison and everything. He get about 15 years, I think, for that. Don't be able to get out, they was going to kill him after he got out. He had to get out and leave there, leave away from down there, keep them from killing him. | 19:01 |
| John Rutledge | A whole lot of them things I know happened down there in Perry County. But other than that, some of them White folk down there was all right. Some of them was all right. You worked for them, they treated you just as nice as anything you ever want to see. That's just one of the things that happened. I haven't known anything like that to happen no more down there. Yeah. | 19:53 |
| Paul Ortiz | When it came time for your parents to settle up with the landlord— | 20:36 |
| John Rutledge | My dad never. Was kind of poor sharecroppers, I'll tell you that right now. They wasn't no big farmers. He'd mostly sharecrop a little bit and did work for the White folks for a living, day hands and things, working by the day and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. He didn't ever raise no cotton. I'll be fair with you. My daddy didn't. Some of them Black guys down there, they raised a whole lot of cotton, but our daddy, he never did do that. He raised all them children and things, real poor and come up poor. | 20:48 |
| John Rutledge | But I left away from down there. Working at the steel mill and I made it good after I started working at that steel mill. Yeah. Made my pension. Made a good pension. If I'd have stayed on down there, I wouldn't have made nothing. Didn't have no land. I had to buy me some land and things. | 21:31 |
| John Rutledge | The war broke out, about all of them young guys left away from down there. When they drafted a whole lot of them into the Army, they didn't go back. Some of them went back. The other ones went all around these big states, like California, New York, different places that had good jobs, Fort Holmes and everything. The war was the cause of that. It's a good thing that war broke out in a way. | 22:05 |
| John Rutledge | They never would've did it if that war hadn't of broke out. They didn't know what was going on in the other world. Draft them and they would travel around through all these big states and things and find out what was going on. All that money was circulating, all them good jobs and things, and they went for it. A whole lot of them made money and went back down in the country. | 22:23 |
| John Rutledge | After they retired, they went back down there and built homes and everything, living good. Go down through there now, some of them. Some of them doing all right and some of them ain't doing no good. Yeah. | 22:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you go to school when you were growing up? | 23:00 |
| John Rutledge | Went a little. Yeah. You said school, didn't you? | 23:09 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 23:11 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, I went a little. | 23:14 |
| Paul Ortiz | What kind of school was it? | 23:20 |
| John Rutledge | We had school in churches. | 23:20 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you go two, three months out of the year? | 23:37 |
| John Rutledge | Something like that, yeah. Sometimes we didn't go that long because we had to stop and go to fields, work, and take days out of school sometime. Some children would go regular, and some of them wouldn't. Different parts of the country, things like that happened. Some people's children lived so far back from any school really, some of them didn't hardly go, period. School was so far from where they were living at, too far for them to walk, way back in the woods and different things like that. But they made it, made it somehow. Yeah. | 23:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Who was responsible for discipline when you were growing up? | 24:41 |
| John Rutledge | Who was responsible what now? | 24:59 |
| Paul Ortiz | For discipline. If one of the kids did something— | 24:59 |
| John Rutledge | If one get into something? | 24:59 |
| Paul Ortiz | Get into some trouble. | 24:59 |
| John Rutledge | They had polices, I mean, what you call it? It wasn't a whole lot of them, but they was riding horses back in that time. Police were riding horses back in that time, sheriff and different things like that. Yeah. Yes, sir. They all rode horses, different kind of horses, but the biggest of them I'd seen was riding a red horse. High sheriffs and deputies and things, getting themselves and ride through the country with them heels and things, get you. Didn't have cars and things in the '40s, around in then. Yeah. They had the law now, and some of them fellows could get in some deal on them plantations. That old man like you, he'll keep the law from getting you. Yeah. The law here did nothing to a White man. Doing something to one another, he could keep you out. Yeah. | 25:06 |
| Paul Ortiz | What kinds of values, what kinds of teachings did your parents give to you? | 26:12 |
| John Rutledge | Talking about our daddy now? | 26:38 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 26:39 |
| John Rutledge | Oh. They'd tell you to stay out of trouble, don't pick up nothing that doesn't belong to you. That was a good teaching. I think children need that kind of teaching now. All you do is stay out of trouble and don't be putting your hands on nothing that don't belong to you, like children stealing and going on taking things. That stayed with me. Yeah. Yeah, I never did. Like possum hunting at night, a lot of children got to do some devilish thing, go into sugarcane fields and go in the watermelon patch sometime at night possum hunting. | 26:41 |
| John Rutledge | As far as stealing money, I never stole nothing out of the store or anything. But stealing is just stealing. But I never did get in jail about nothing. That's the main thing. Yeah. Never did get in jail about no stealing, no picking up nothing that didn't belong to me. He taught us that. We stayed out of trouble too. We didn't get into trouble. Yeah. That's a good thing. | 27:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | How about your mother? | 28:18 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. I remember her. She was named Helen. Yeah. I was a little-bitty fellow when she passed though, but I remember her though. She died when I was small. A mule was pulling hearses then. You know, it's been a long time. Them horses and things get to them old wooden bridges and they'd go, "Whoa, boy. Easy, boy." Ease on across there. Some hearses had seats on the side of where the captain was for the children to sit in back in that time. Yeah, I remember that. A little rough back in that time. They didn't have no undertaker. Sometimes you had to make boxes to put the peoples in. It was lumber, they'd make a box to put the peoples in. | 28:21 |
| Paul Ortiz | Who would make the box? | 29:26 |
| John Rutledge | The guys that are around get together and make it, get nails and hammers and make it. Yeah, your own wood. I don't remember no undertakers. Yeah, they had horses and things, wagon and things, buggies and things with the horse with the undertaker. But I don't know nothing about the embalming and different things like that. I guess they did, but that's the way they had to do it. Yeah. You'd get lumber and made that body. That's what they do, take and made that body. Get that lumber and then make that, put a lid on it, put that body in there. Couldn't keep them out no long time either, like they do now. Get them on to the graveyard, bury them. | 29:29 |
| Paul Ortiz | Was there a separate graveyard that Black people would be buried in? | 30:43 |
| John Rutledge | All them that belonged to that same church, the graveyard would be close to that. Members of that same church, they bury all them in that graveyard now. They didn't have no segregation between the Blacks to bury in no certain grave. They're like that now. That grave close to that church, you belong to this church, you bury all of them in that grave. Yeah. | 30:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | Mr. Rutledge, you were talking about when somebody would pass and they'd be buried. What kind of ceremony would happen? | 31:22 |
| John Rutledge | Oh. They'd have a funeral and have your funeral at churches. And folks would sit up with you all night, sit up with the body all night in the country. A whole lot of times when they're sick, they'd sit up all night. Different ones would fan them. Folks was good back in that time, showing up, cooperating back in that time. But when someone passed, we'd go sit up with the family all night. They'd sit up all night and drink coffee and things of that nature. | 31:34 |
| John Rutledge | Yes, sir. When somebody's sick, they'd take turns to go be with them, all that. You go home and take a nap. Go on home and go to sleep. You all get y'all some rest now. We going to sit up for the rest of the night. We're going to take over from here. Yes, sir. They'd do that in the country. Yeah. I remember that. They sure would, yeah. That's the good thing about it. Yeah. | 32:04 |
| John Rutledge | They would be sick. Folk would have fan, a big old fan in the country then. They didn't have no ceiling fan or no fans in the house or put air conditioning in your house. They had them fans where they'd fan them sick folk and leave the door where the fresh air would come on in the house and things like that. That's all they had back in that time, way back in the '20s and first '20s and things like that. | 32:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you ever do that for neighbors? Did you ever go and help out like that? | 33:05 |
| John Rutledge | No. You see, I had some people who were sick. Some sisters and brothers got sick like that, and they'd do the same thing there at where I be living. Yeah. | 33:14 |
| Paul Ortiz | When did you leave Perry County? | 33:36 |
| John Rutledge | 1933. | 33:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | At the time, you had been farming? | 33:48 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. See, I'm going to tell you. See, you ever heard of work for wages? Wages are what you call work by the month and pay you by the month. That's what you call working for wages. See, I used to work for wages down there. I was working for a man. See, it was a bunch of them Stones. He was named Joe Stone. Now, me and him got along just fine. See what I'm saying? But I had to leave. I wasn't making nothing. I wasn't getting nowhere there. | 33:51 |
| John Rutledge | He said, "You get through farming, you get through laying by, then you don't have nothing else to do until you started gathering again." There was a whole lot of idle time there. I was ready to leave there anyhow because there wasn't no future in it. Wasn't no future in that for me, but while I done it, I enjoyed it. | 34:25 |
| John Rutledge | See, people down there now kill their own hogs and milk their own cows and raise everything they needed to raise, all the syrup. Kept plenty to eat all the time. That was a good thing, but it wasn't no future there for me. All my other folk was gone. Sister and brother had left down there and come on up here. I took the blues, I said, "I'm going too. I've got to leave here too. I'm getting lonesome. Got to leave this place." Heard tell of what was going on up there. I come on up there and struggled a while, but it paid off down the road. Yeah. | 34:53 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you remember in Perry County what would happen when people would get sick, have an ailment or something? | 35:38 |
| John Rutledge | They'd do what now? | 35:56 |
| Paul Ortiz | What would happen, like if you got sick as a child, if you got— | 35:58 |
| John Rutledge | Oh, sick. | 36:02 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 36:03 |
| John Rutledge | Well, they had a very few doctors, a very few doctors. The doctors didn't know what doctors know now. Most of the time when people got sick, some old women had home remedies that they could cure a cold. They'd get what they call chamomile tea and all that kind of stuff and hog hoof tea. And fix that stuff up and some stuff in the woods that's called bluegrass, take that and boil it. They had a way to survive back in that time, and they could just about take that talon on a beast and all that stuff. And they just about cure a cold if ain't got you too—Cured the pneumonia if it ain't got you too bad. | 36:06 |
| John Rutledge | That's the way they did it back in that time, but doctors was scarce. There's so many folk and the doctors was so few. They had to stay up some kind of way to do something. The doctor down there was named Dr. Pry. I don't know if another doctor was around there in that neighborhood. I wondered why he drove a horse with a cart to it. Had a horse pulling a cart, a two-wheeled cart, going around through the country to them folks' houses and different things like that. Later on, he bought him a car. Yeah. Had his son to drive it around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I remember all of that. | 37:02 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did those remedies, you mentioned that they could cure pneumonia, sickness. Did you see a lot of that as a child? | 38:08 |
| John Rutledge | No, I didn't see no whole lot of it, but then I heard of a whole lot of it that people would tell about people would get sick. I know about all that stuff they made their medicines out of because my daddy used to get all that bluegrass, boil it, and it worked on a cold like I don't know what. They'd take that chamomile tea. A whole lot of folk say it's nasty, but it did a whole lot of folks good. Take that hog feet and get them hoofs off them hogs' feet and boil it. That make tea out of all of that, things like that. Make that moonshine liquor, put a little of that in some of that stuff. Take turpentine and drink a little of that, all of that. That's the other remedies. Do folks a whole lot of good. Yeah. | 38:24 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did people ever talk about spirits or—? | 39:42 |
| John Rutledge | I used to hear them talk about it a little bit. I never did believe in it too much because I used to come by graveyards at night, I ain't never see nothing. Had us scared to come by graveyards at night, haints and all that kind of stuff. A whole lot of fairytales was told about that, but I never did see it. And I used to travel all the time at night and didn't see nothing. A guy was down there telling a fairytale about possum hunting one night, and a dog struck something and came to the cemetery and treed him up a big cedar tree. | 39:49 |
| John Rutledge | That's why the dog was there when they got there in that tree. They had heard of him, something talking like a man. Made a speech, said, "Y'all been treeing possums, but you done treed your daddy, now." Said, "The dogs outrunning the man folks home." (laughs) All of 'em left running, the dogs beat them to the house. (laughs) "Well, y'all been treeing possums. They done treed your daddy tonight." (laughs) The dog took to tail and beat them home. All that kind of stuff. I don't know. | 40:28 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you remember other stories like that that people would tell? | 41:16 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. (laughs) I would tell all kind of fairytales. (laughs) Yes, sir. Yeah. I guess they had another fairytale about a place down there where they'd baptize at a creek. | 41:24 |
| Paul Ortiz | Could I turn the radio down? | 41:39 |
| John Rutledge | Okay. | 41:39 |
| Paul Ortiz | I've got you. | 41:39 |
| John Rutledge | You get it. Cut it off. | 41:39 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. Whoops. | 41:48 |
| John Rutledge | It's all right. Yeah. | 41:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 41:53 |
| John Rutledge | They said, "Men are riding along with a horse, and it was the shape of a person, but it didn't have no head on the body. Dressed in white." When that horse got there, he grabbed the horse, get that bridle of the horse and would let the horse go. The horse reared up and threw him. He got up there, he run and left the horse like nobody's business. I don't know if all that is true or not. That might've been fairytale too. Yeah. We used to tell a whole lot of fairytales in the country. Yeah. | 41:55 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you ever hear anybody talk about magic or casting spells on anybody? | 42:46 |
| John Rutledge | Do what now? | 43:00 |
| Paul Ortiz | People talking about spells or casting bad luck against somebody. | 43:03 |
| John Rutledge | I might have heard of a little bit of that. I heard so much down there. Yeah. They used to talk a whole lot about haints. | 43:13 |
| Paul Ortiz | Haints? | 43:21 |
| John Rutledge | Haints. You know, like a dead folk's spirit and things. Yeah, would get you. Coming by cemeteries and things like that. I used to be scared of cemeteries. I used to be didn't want to come by there by myself at night, no, no, not no cemetery. No. Haints would come out of them cemeteries and they get you. Yeah. They'd scare you like that. Remember a long time ago down there, we're little-bitty children, said a bear was out. They said a bear was out. We're scared of them bears. There's a bear out. That bear's going to get you. Yeah. They had fairytales and things like that in the country. I never did see none of them, what they was talking about. Yeah. | 43:21 |
| Paul Ortiz | But you remember those as a child? | 44:26 |
| John Rutledge | Oh, yeah. No, we was all children then. They'd tell us that. Yeah. | 44:30 |
| Paul Ortiz | Down around 1933, you ended up going to Birmingham. | 44:51 |
| John Rutledge | I left the country and came up here to Birmingham. This is Birmingham here. Yep. | 45:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | 1933? | 45:06 |
| John Rutledge | Yep. | 45:07 |
| Paul Ortiz | Where did you live? | 45:09 |
| John Rutledge | Well, I first, I had some peoples down there below Bethlehem. I don't guess you're not familiar with them places around there. A place down there that's called McCalla, Alabama. A place down there that's called Gophite, Alabama. Another place down there called—You might be familiar with that Tannehill State Park or that place that's called Tannehill. I had some people that lived down there. That's where I first stopped when I came from down in Perry County. | 45:11 |
| Paul Ortiz | Some relatives? | 45:44 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. I had sisters and brothers down there, and I stayed there a little while. Then I left there and moved on up here, come on up here. When I come on up here, I worked for—weighed slag in a gravel company a little while. They laid us off, and then there wasn't nothing there. That was 1937. Then met another guy, and I expensed a whole lot. Caught a freight train, went to New Orleans, Louisiana. | 45:48 |
| John Rutledge | —a truck leaving now this evening, about 2:00. Out on the sugar cane plantation. And the man had everybody come out there. Well, that sounded good. Y'all would be out there by 2:00 to get that truck. Sure enough, that Sunday evening. We went up there. And all could get on that truck went across. Went on across that Huey P. Long bridge across that Mississippi River. Went 60 miles out on that sugar cane desert. Got out there, as far as you could see was nothing but sugar cane, sugar cane, sugar cane, sugar cane. | 0:01 |
| John Rutledge | Had a boating house out right in the middle of the sugar cane field. Once we got there, had a whole lot of guys that was already there. And the man—both men, he come up there riding a big red horse. And he told us, said, " Well, I want everybody's attention. I got a speech I might make to y'all." | 0:45 |
| John Rutledge | He laid down the plans what he said that "I want all that sugar cane out there, I want it cut. I know y'all come out here. Y'all didn't come out here to play. I ain't have no playing. If you come out to work, you got to work." That's what he said. | 1:14 |
| John Rutledge | That night, they swing them bridges. Couldn't get away from that night. They had them darn alligators and things, in them bayous and things. If you swim in it, they did eat you up. You had to stay there. | 1:27 |
| Paul Ortiz | So, who would—so somebody would take out the bridges? | 1:43 |
| John Rutledge | They'd swing them. | 1:46 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh. | 1:47 |
| John Rutledge | You know, where you couldn't get cross. | 1:48 |
| Paul Ortiz | Right. So they were— | 1:49 |
| John Rutledge | Did like they do in [indistinct 00:01:51], didn't have no ships coming up through them. The river. You know, they're swinging them bridges back so the ship can come up. That what they did that night. Bring them up or something. But you couldn't cross. Couldn't walk away from there and come back—get away from there. They did that at night. So you had to stay there. Now, we stayed there until—I stayed there until January. | 1:52 |
| John Rutledge | Now, I did that in January, 1937. No, I didn't, no I didn't. Lord, I'm wrong. They tried to get me to stay there until January. I stayed there until Christmas Eve, 1937. And they paid us all. They tried to get us to stay, but I wouldn't stay. And I enjoyed that. He spends a whole lot down there in that place down there. Hmm. Yeah. Had a good time down there. Then I came on back in 1938, and I got that job down at Republic Steel. I stayed there 39 years and five months. | 2:15 |
| Paul Ortiz | How did you get the job in Republic Steel? | 2:55 |
| John Rutledge | Well, you see, they were hiring. 1938. Business opened up—Roosevelt was in that day and age. Jobs opened up and everything and they was hiring everybody. US Steel was hiring. [indistinct 00:03:09] Ball Pipe Shop was hiring. That's just before the war broke out. And everybody would go down there. They did hire them. Some of them would stay there and some of them went somewhere else, you know. Quit. Went somewhere else and get a job. But I stayed there. Bunch of us got hired that day. Man would come out there that morning and hire them. He'd go back. Then in the evening, another man would do the hiring. Yeah. So. | 2:58 |
| John Rutledge | One guy would stutter, you know? He would do a stutter, he couldn't talk. And them other guys were telling him about, "Man, he ain't going to hire you, you can't talk." Liked to disencourage a man. Like his wife told him, said, "You go out there. Man can't do nothing but turn you down. Go on down there." Sure enough, he went on down there, and the man hired him. | 3:35 |
| John Rutledge | He told a man, he said, "I'll be fair. I can't do much talking. I can't talk much." Man told him, said, "That's all right. We ain't hiring you to talk. We hiring you to work." That's the trouble with some of them down there. They talk too damn much. That's what he—he come back and told him that. He [indistinct 00:04:18] when he told him that. "I reckon all you and him are talking too much. Told me he didn't hire me to talk, he hired me to work." (laughs) | 4:01 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah, a bunch of guys would grudge your chance, you know, didn't want you to get no job. They didn't want nobody to get good job working but them. But they just about had done bluffed the poor man. No, he stuttered when he talk. And then his wife got him to go on down there anyhow, and the man hired him. You know? He started not to go. They don't pay him what those guys were telling him. He left away from down there and came back. | 4:23 |
| John Rutledge | "Hey, did you get hired?" Man said, "Yeah." "They dropped their heads then," he told me, man who hired, "They dropped their heads." He made sure these guys who said, "No, you didn't hire me. Just like y'all said." That'd have been all they wanted, you know. But when he said "yeah," they dropped their head and walked off. (laughs) | 4:58 |
| Paul Ortiz | He showed him up. | 5:14 |
| John Rutledge | That's the truth. Yeah. Mm-hmm. | 5:15 |
| Paul Ortiz | So what was it like to work for Republic Steel in 1938? | 5:22 |
| John Rutledge | Well, you did a whole lot of different kind of work. Hard work. It was a hard work down there all the time. Tennessee. We all started to work then like a—called it labor gang. That was about the cheapest rate you got down there. Would have a bunch of you together out there working. Old drags and things like that. You had fun. Enjoyed it. And worked on through all of that and got good jobs. I did. | 5:28 |
| John Rutledge | I worked all up on a stock [indistinct 00:06:13]. Dumping ore. Had—oh, now, what's it called? Monkey hole. But got a stock [indistinct 00:06:23] and got down there running them steel car, bringing that ore. And them cabs would come down in that hole and dump that ore and get up there and dump it in there. Furnace, you know. Make pigs, make iron out of it. I was the clean up man. I had to go down there and clean up when they missed. Sometimes they'd miss their cab and dump it all on the ground, and I had to go down there and clean all that up. | 6:11 |
| Paul Ortiz | You'd clean what up? | 6:42 |
| John Rutledge | That ore, you know? | 6:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh. | 6:42 |
| John Rutledge | They had a hole down there. Big hole. Big enough for you to get out the way of them cabs. And had two—four double tracks come down in there. For them cabs to run on rails like a railroad, you know. Come down in that hole. And they'd run on those scale cars down, it had tracks, too. They had hoppers. Well, them hoppers come right over one of them scale car, like one of—those trams would come under there, and that scale car would dump that stuff on down through that chute down in that hopper, that cab, cab up there on the furnace. | 6:47 |
| John Rutledge | And sometimes they would miss that there. The guys on the scale car would miss that there. Go on this side, dump it until it all out where the cab at. So. They'd dump it down in there in the ground. I had to get down there and shovel it all up, you know. Ore, scrap iron, everything. You know. But it didn't kill me. I did it. Yeah. I didn't feel like I ever did it now. I been out so long. Yeah. | 7:26 |
| Paul Ortiz | Is there a union at Republic Steel? | 8:02 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah, we organized one in—I think it was probably—I don't know whether it's in the thirties or the forties we organized a union. Yeah. | 8:02 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you take part in that? | 8:15 |
| John Rutledge | Oh, yeah. I enjoyed a whole lot of it. | 8:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | How did you organize? | 8:21 |
| John Rutledge | Well, they had a government man, right over here at an Italian store. The government man was over there. And he had everybody come over there and sign up. Sign their name and everything. And that's when they got organized. Then they got a union hall after then. You got union hall, bought a union hall after then. Everybody would come to the union lead and pay dues. You cutting dues out of our salaries, you know. So much dues out of our paycheck. So. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That way we got organized. Then you'd come out on strikes and things, and everybody would come out on the strike. You had to sign up to do that. They didn't scab down there. Anybody was scabbed, you got to worry if you scabbing down there, you get laid off. Won't let you work. Yeah. | 8:26 |
| Paul Ortiz | Reverend Archie talked about taking messages back and forth when you were trying to unionize. | 9:24 |
| John Rutledge | No, they had some scab would do that. Or a pigeon dropper carry—what went on in the union meeting, carry it back to the company. That what he was talking about in there. | 9:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, he was talking about that? | 9:40 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah, I guess that's what he was talking about. That's what you call a man scabbing. | 9:40 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh. | 9:46 |
| John Rutledge | You see. He'd tell the foreman. Go back and tell the foreman everything went on in the union meeting. Get back in there—that's supposed to be kept secret. What went on in the union meeting, supposed to be kept secret from the company. Company wasn't supposed know what you carried on in—what went on in the union meeting. But he had some pigeon dropper would take it back to him, you know. And tell it like that. Yeah. Ain't that wrong? That's what happened. | 9:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | What would happen if the company found out that you were trying to unionize? | 10:18 |
| John Rutledge | Well, they eventually did tell you. They know what went on in the union meeting. But they wouldn't hardly tell you who told it. Yeah. They did tell you they know what went on in the union meeting. Now, that ought to have been secret between the union members. Ain't nobody pull a note on about what went on in a union meeting but the union member. Everybody that belonged to the union. Yeah. That true. He was telling the truth back there that they did. A bunch of them did do that. | 10:31 |
| Paul Ortiz | Who would you say, when you were trying to organize in those first days, when you talked about signing up at the office. | 11:07 |
| John Rutledge | Mm-hmm. | 11:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | How would you communicate to other people to try to get them to sign up, too? Did you go back? | 11:25 |
| John Rutledge | Well, what would happen there, you'd tell them about the—you'd get organized in the union, and you would command. You can command, and they said it was going to be nationwide, and which it was. From coast to coast. And they shut the whole world down. Some steel mills would, they'd cripple the whole with nothing now, making no steel nowhere. And that'd make them come to agreement quicker, you know. And the union gets what they want. See, that was happening here and happening all up New York. Cleveland. And Pittsburgh and all of them different places. Cargo. All of them big mills that are all up there and things like that, see, they was organizing up there, too, and down here, too. | 11:32 |
| John Rutledge | And we got organized. We was nationwide. We were strong. And we come out on the strike, the whole world come out. All steel mill all over the world come out. But it was in that 2382. CIO. That's what it is. What union it was. CIO. Mm-hmm. And that was—that were—you tell them about that. Tell them, now, your company going to give y'all nothing that you fight for. You got the man what you wanted. He'd give about a nickel raise. You're making all that iron for him and making all that money, and he would give you a little about a nickel raise. Something like that. And we organized that union thing. We got pension. You got 13 weeks vacation. We got 11 holidays with pay. All a whole lot of good stuff, you know. Yes, sir. And all of them contracts that we got. That's the truth. | 12:29 |
| John Rutledge | But the bottom fell out some reason. I don't know why. Some of them said Mr. Reagan did it. I don't know whether he did it or not. Broke up all of that. Got hired 14 weeks vacation. Before anybody broke that union. One guy could go around the world on a vacation, you know? For his 14 weeks, you know, you would go everywhere you want to go. And come on back time enough to go back to work. That's the truth, yeah. | 13:20 |
| John Rutledge | We got all that in the union. Yeah. Because I got three 13 weeks myself. Yeah. Went to Chicago twice. To family reunions and things like that. Yeah. All around different things like that. Went to— | 13:49 |
| Paul Ortiz | One more question about when you were organizing. There were, in your local, you had Black and White workers? | 14:12 |
| John Rutledge | Oh, yeah. I'm going to tell you about that. Discriminated, now, I'm going to tell you about discriminated. They had union halls, and there wasn't a Black president of no local. You got hired as a grievance man, and that's all you got. In Black, back in that time. One Black guy got to be the chairman of the grievance man. Chairman of the Board on grievance man. One of them tried to get president, but he couldn't make it. Yeah. | 14:19 |
| John Rutledge | Wouldn't let him be no president. Yeah. But he did get to be a grievance man. One boy named Sydney [indistinct 00:14:57], he got to be the chairman of all the grievance man. He's over all of them. That was all right, yeah. And there'd never be no president of no local. Not a Black man. Not down here. Might've been up the country somewhere. Didn't get down here, he wouldn't. Yeah. Not out here at Republic Steel, he didn't. I know. Yeah. | 14:50 |
| Paul Ortiz | So there was still discrimination? | 15:22 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah, discrimination. I'll tell you something else. Just like in the union hall, they had a platform up where the White would sit, and Blacks didn't never sit up there. The grievance man couldn't sit up there. Sat out on the floor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seems like, up on a platform up there, you know, around them. They're like church, like a pulpit. You know? Yeah. They're sitting around up there, and they're going to figure that out, and the grievance man, he couldn't sit, was no room up there. But he couldn't sit up there. | 15:24 |
| John Rutledge | Discriminated. Discriminated in that union. Discriminated, no doubt about that. They discriminated. Yeah. But the bottom fell out. And I don't know what happened to the money. They were paying, just cutting us out of our dues, but when them union—they said it's—all the staff, went back to the staff. I don't know. We questioned all about it. "What y'all do with all that money left in them locals? Ain't no more union." The staff got it all, I bet. Yeah. | 16:05 |
| Paul Ortiz | Was the union local broke, or Republic Steel closed down? | 16:42 |
| John Rutledge | No, no, they wasn't broke. No, they wasn't broke. Hmm-mm. They had some money in treasury. But they are—what we was speaking about, when the plants shut down, nobody else working no more. What happened to the money? Wasn't no more union. When the plants shut down, that's the end of the union. You see? Nobody working. There ain't nobody to pay no more dues. But we were concerned about all that money they had within the treasury. What happened to that money? They told us it went on back to them [indistinct 00:17:25]. That's what they told us. Headquarters, you know? Pittsburgh or somewhere up there. Cleveland or somewhere. That's what they told us. So that's all. Couldn't tell us nothing. Hmm. Yeah. | 16:48 |
| Paul Ortiz | When you were working at Republic Steel, what kind of fight did you have to try to work your way up the job ladder? | 17:44 |
| John Rutledge | Well, you see, I'll tell you how that thing went. Let me show you how that thing went. Now, we didn't have to fight for that. The time that around John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King and all them fellows come on the staffs, they got to talk about how they'd be discriminated on jobs. They come up with a plan, it was one of the best plans you ever heard tell them. Said, whatever we going to tell these companies to do, they got to do it. And jobs and things come open up, put it up for bid. Post it up on the bulletin board. Up on the poster. Said that the oldest man, regardless to creed or color, bid on that job. And if you don't know it, you got to curb him a little while. Got to curb the Black just as you do the White. | 18:03 |
| John Rutledge | Then, if the Black older than the White, the Black get it. That's the only reason we got to get them good jobs down there. And all over the South. The White man had all his good job. All his days, and I got to tell you now, they'd go down in the woods somewhere and get a man. Ain't never been to a steel mill. And bring him down there and put him on them job. And you still got that old hard job you had all the time. Put him up over you. Operating. Things of that nature. | 18:52 |
| John Rutledge | Uncle Sam made him do the sharing. He started putting them jobs up for bid. But the Black dudes—most of the Black guys was older than the White guys down there anyhow. Now, they couldn't take the White man job what he already had. But a new job put up on the board, he could bid on that and get that. Yeah. Yeah, that was fair. He didn't go back and tell that man, roll that man off his job. Couldn't do that. | 19:21 |
| Paul Ortiz | Now before that happened, how would you get a job? I mean, how would you get another higher paid job? | 19:47 |
| John Rutledge | Well, you didn't get no higher paid job. I mean, didn't get them. Didn't get none. Unless that one would come open. If one come open, now you could get it. But them there, with the—that's the only way you got them job. When one come up on 'em— | 19:55 |
| John Rutledge | At that time, when a White man took a vacation or something, then another White man would move up on that or something. One passed to do so. Another man would move up on that job. Yeah. That's the only way you got it. Yes, sir. Mm-hmm. | 20:13 |
| Paul Ortiz | So when you were working at Republic at the beginning, were you living here in this area? | 20:32 |
| John Rutledge | I was living right here. | 20:36 |
| Paul Ortiz | In this house? | 20:36 |
| John Rutledge | I was living down on another street down there for awhile. | 20:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 20:43 |
| John Rutledge | But I bought this house, yeah, from Republic Steel, and remodeled it. Yeah. | 20:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | So all these houses were company-owned? | 20:52 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. These company house. All of them. | 20:55 |
| Paul Ortiz | Where would you go to get your groceries and stuff? | 21:00 |
| John Rutledge | Oh, shoot. There's plenty of grocery stores around here. One right across the track down that time. I'd trade with that man. He's Italian. Then they had a bunch of stores around. You could go to them. Got them A&P Store. Winn-Dixies and things. Around. You could go to them store. They pulled [indistinct 00:21:31] them, they hadn't been too long, before they, you know, come up. And things of that nature. Yeah. | 21:04 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did Republic operate a commissary, or a— | 21:38 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah. They did that. I traded at that. | 21:40 |
| Paul Ortiz | How did that work? | 21:46 |
| John Rutledge | Well, they'd cut your money out. You [indistinct 00:21:49] and then payday you wouldn't draw that. They'd cut them on out of your payroll. That's what they did. Yep. Whole lot of them didn't draw nothing, too. A whole lot of guys didn't draw nothing. That's the whole truth, now. | 21:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | Who was responsible for security around here? Did Republic have a police force? | 22:11 |
| John Rutledge | They had guards down there that's keep—on gate. Yeah. They had guard on the gate down there. Yeah. And chief police. Chief guard and everything down there. Yeah. Had them down there. Protect they property. Uh-huh. | 22:19 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did they patrol up and down this neighborhood? | 22:41 |
| John Rutledge | Not much. They didn't ever hardly come up and down here. Yeah. 1934 they had a strike. They would come around through here. Yeah. That's about all. Yeah. | 22:44 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you get married? | 23:03 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah, my wife passed. Mm-hmm. | 23:06 |
| Paul Ortiz | When did you get married? | 23:09 |
| John Rutledge | 1940. Mm-hmm. | 23:11 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did you meet your wife around here, or? | 23:17 |
| John Rutledge | No, she came from Dothan, Alabama. I met her here, but her home was down there in Dothan, Alabama. Hmm. | 23:20 |
| Paul Ortiz | How did you meet her? | 23:28 |
| John Rutledge | Well, her mother was up here before she came up here. And then her mother went down there and brought her up here. Then I met her. Then she went back, and then she come back and me and her got married. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. She died last year. Hold on just one minute. Take that off. [INTERRUPTION] | 23:30 |
| Paul Ortiz | Mr. Rutledge, were there occasions around Thomas that people would get together? Celebrations? Parties, things like that? | 24:04 |
| John Rutledge | Oh, yeah. They had plenty of jokes around here. Parties and things on Saturday night and everything like that. Had plenty of that. Yeah. You'd have quite a bit of that. Yeah. | 24:16 |
| Paul Ortiz | And so this area was primarily Black families? | 24:32 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah, all up in there were Black. The White lived back up on the other end. Back up there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. | 24:35 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you remember the street that the Whites lived on? | 24:39 |
| John Rutledge | You got Fourth Street. Yeah. And Second Street. Third Street. And First Street. First Street, Second Street, Third Street, Fourth Street. Fifth Street. Down all of them, I think. | 24:46 |
| Paul Ortiz | And then Blacks lived on— | 24:58 |
| John Rutledge | Yeah, [indistinct 00:25:05] Eighth Street. And Seventh Street. Sixth Street. Fifth Street. Fourth Street. The Blacks lived on. Yeah. Yeah, that's where that is. Mm-hmm. | 25:09 |
| Paul Ortiz | What were the biggest changes that you was in Thomas through those years? | 25:19 |
| John Rutledge | Well, when they sold these houses, well, they sold these house to us. One of them go out there, they cutting the rent. Just cutting the rent. And they decided that well, to put these houses up for sale, and we had the first choice. What living in them, you had the first choice, but if you just wouldn't buy it, then you had to get out. Have somebody else buy it. Had a deadline, you know, for you to buy them. A whole lot of them bought them and then lose them. That the truth. Bought the house, then lose them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure did. Yeah. | 25:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | What year did they sell these houses? Do you know? | 26:23 |
| John Rutledge | Let's see. It wasn't—it was in the '30s, I think. I believe it was around '39, I believe. I believe it was, now. I believe around '39 [indistinct 00:26:56]. Yeah. | 26:25 |
| Paul Ortiz | There's a bit of paperwork that goes in with your tape. We'll go ahead and— | 27:06 |
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