Grady Williams interview recording, 1994 July 19

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Kate Ellis	Your name and when you were born and where?	0:01
Grady Williams	I'm Grady Williams. Grady J. Williams. I was born in Iberia Parish in Louisiana in the year 1938. June first.	0:05
Kate Ellis	Okay. Let me check that.	0:26
Grady Williams	Testing one, two, three. Testing.	0:31
Kate Ellis	Yes. Say, this is Kate Ellis with Dr. Williams on June— No, July nineteenth on 1994. And you are doing, yeah. Now that I've totally interrupted your train of thought, I want to just get back onto what we were talking about a minute ago about your interest in World War II veterans, and you had talked about what you've recognized as common among African Americans who fought in World War II and the sort of degrading experiences they had that they were fully cognizant of in that war. I'm curious, but then you also said that you were interested in talking to Caucasians, Caucasian veterans of that war. And that's what I wanted to ask you about what your interest was in their perspective.	0:35
Grady Williams	I would just be interested in knowing how they were thinking, just basically how they were thinking as they entered that particular war. Some of my interviews so far, very informal interviews indicate that they were just thinking about the enemy and they were Americans and they were thinking about the French and the British. And there was no emotions that the Black man had. It was a totally different type American, totally different type American. They, as a matter of fact, most of them, I think, did not even regard the Black man as a man yet. And this is something I would want to listen for, I think it would be hard to really hear it. But I think at that time there was racism, naturally. And I don't think the Caucasian thought of the Black man as a man at that point, as a full man capable, just as capable as any other man.	1:31
Grady Williams	I think that there was that type of racism that was handed down, and it would just be interesting to learn how could a person assume that to be a normal way of life? Because at this time, especially in this part of the country, these people were learned, so to speak. They had been schooled, and of course, they've worked. They had worked the same kind of jobs and many of them had worked more or less together. And because I don't think the plantations were very, very large at that time. So you had many people who were basically agricultural background, some in small industry because I think at that time we had small industry. So I just wonder, I'm going to be listening to hear how he really felt of himself as a man. And if there was any sensitivity at all of this other man being a man and what he was experiencing. It would just be interesting to know that.	2:44
Grady Williams	But I do know that this African American of the Second World War was a man who suffered deeply and he suffered because he was knowledgeable and he was just quiet. I don't know of any books on the subject of that period. I know of a few, one particular, The Negro: A National Asset or Liability. I remember I was in my teens when I picked up that book and I was interested, I want to know, am I an asset or am I a liability for this in this country? So I think the Second World War is an interesting place to start because I can recall talking with my father who fought in the First World War, and he went to France. He was in France.	4:03
Grady Williams	I can remember the pride he felt in being selected to go to war, and the pride he felt in being an artillery man. And he was able to fight with guns. And although he was being from the Louisiana and definitely of French descent, he was also an interpreter because he spoke French in the area to a certain degree, he did some. And this is what he told me, he did some interpretation, but he fought in the trench wars. And I can also recall him telling me about what was happening back home, because back home there was less money. But this way, he was earning more money by whatever means. He was getting a certain income, and he acquired some money and sent back home. But his father, having no value at all, the inability to understand money and its use, gave it away.	5:15
Grady Williams	I couldn't quite understand that. But basically, when I did question about what happened when he was growing up, he told me some of the things about the kind of Jim Crow, whereby they were not even allowed to learn to count. They were not allowed to learn to think. The smallest amount that they could learn to think the better they are were. And the reason his sister was one who was working in the house and she had to learn things, like learn to count because she had to count eggs and different things in the kitchen and around the house. But she was not allowed to come home and teach her younger brothers and sisters.	6:44
Kate Ellis	How come? How did they stop her?	7:50
Grady Williams	I don't know. I didn't pursue this, but this is on interviewing my father, so to speak. These are some of the things that he told me.	7:52
Kate Ellis	Incredible.	8:06
Grady Williams	Yes.	8:14
Kate Ellis	Uncommon, but incredible. It's just amazing.	8:14
Grady Williams	Well, I was amazed to find out that it went that far. But you must realize now, his father, he told me that his father, he did not really know. His father was born a slave, and he was twelve years old at the end of slavery. I didn't go back to check the records, but this is the story. He was twelve years old or nine at the end of slavery. And somehow he was brought down to Louisiana from Virginia.	8:14
Kate Ellis	After slavery?	8:52
Grady Williams	After slavery. An he started his family. He was, naturally, working on a farm. And my father—	8:56
Grady Williams	I don't know if it was a sharecropper at that time, because I'm sure that you know the stories about you'd never really get your share. For some reason, you always—As a matter of fact, I just learned lately that the owners of many of the plantations had their own money, whereby they would make their own tokens. And you could only spend these tokens at this particular store. You'd always run out of tokens before the crop would come in, and at the end of the year, you owed them more money. So you could never really break this cycle of just working for survival from day to day. I'm sure somewhere in the interview is another thing I just learned recently. It was referred to as a hoe cake.	9:14
Kate Ellis	A hoe cake?	10:25
Grady Williams	A hoe cake. And I think that when you went off to work in the fields, you'd have a hoe cake with you. You'd take a hoe cake. And the substance of this hoe cake would allow you to hoe the whole day in the field. But my father did tell me about these things, and I was asking him just before he died, maybe about two years before he died, I was in school in Houston, and he came down to spend a few days with me. And I said, "Dad, I've had it kind of tough here, and I just want to know something about your life because it just seems like if your life would've been a little better, mine would've been a little better." And that's when he started telling me the story. And he told me that going away to France was an escape for him. And when he got there, he learned quite a bit.	10:27
Grady Williams	He learned quite a bit about discrimination. He could see that he was more accepted in France than he was in his own home. And he did encounter, he told me that he did encounter German, who were the enemy, and they did not want to fight, really. And I didn't pursue that very much.	11:26
Kate Ellis	As far as how they—	12:01
Grady Williams	What happened, what actually happened.	12:03
Kate Ellis	But he certainly noticed a difference between them and the—	12:05
Grady Williams	The way that he was treated here. He did notice the difference.	12:09
Kate Ellis	How do you think that that affected him when he got back here, about how he thought about his circumstances?	12:14
Grady Williams	I'm just amazed that my father and his particular development. As a matter of fact, development in this area. My father's mother was half White. He knew some of his relatives who were White. He was a man that had no hate. He knew no hate, no remorse. And he lived his life out in that manner. He did receive some injuries in the war because this was the gas war. And he told me stories about living with the gas mask and that kind of thing.	12:21
Grady Williams	And he had some, I guess, lung injuries. I don't know. So he was "disabled veteran", meaning that he got some small pension for being a veteran. And when he came back, he was able to go to school. He was able to attend night school. And was it at that time, no, it was much later. It was much later that he did attend some courses and they were able to take a trade, learn something. It may have been even after World War II where the World War I veterans were included in some of these veteran education benefits. Where should we go from here?	13:13
Kate Ellis	I think we should stick with it. Let me just [indistinct 00:14:14]. Thanks for this. I want to get something to slip my mind, follow up on it. Oh, I'm interested again.	14:09
Grady Williams	My uncle was a part of World War II and we lived very closely with him. So he was the continuity.	14:31
Kate Ellis	So your father was World War I? Yes. Your uncle, younger than your father.	14:38
Grady Williams	My father's brother-in-law. This was my uncle from my mother's side.	14:44
Kate Ellis	Okay.	14:48
Grady Williams	So we had that type continuity as military history, if you will. I look at it that way. I was able to observe the difference between my uncle as well as one of my cousins, who was a World War II veteran. I was able to observe the difference between my father and them. However, I knew that my father, even, I think his sentiments were pretty much the same as most of the men of World War I.	14:48
Kate Ellis	Which was?	15:27
Grady Williams	They harbored nothing inside. No hate. They appreciated the opportunity to fight.	15:28
Kate Ellis	And no hatred for Whites?	15:36
Grady Williams	No hatred. No hatred. And I don't like to use that term hatred so much. I think it's no hurts. They did not in experience the hurts.	15:36
Kate Ellis	That later generation.	15:49
Grady Williams	That later—	15:50
Kate Ellis	This is really—I think this is—	15:51
Grady Williams	It's not hate, but it's hurts. And I think—	15:53
Kate Ellis	Which generates resentment.	15:57
Grady Williams	Pardon?	15:59
Kate Ellis	Which generates resentment.	16:00
Grady Williams	There was some resentment, but if you were not cognizant of something, if you were not focused on—I think these men of the First World War didn't look at themselves as really being on even remote equal par or equal. They could not imagine. Because even then, my father told me about some of the ways they were treated, okay. If you walked downtown, you could not walk behind a White woman, per se. You had to cross the street.	16:02
Kate Ellis	Why couldn't you walk behind—	16:49
Grady Williams	I don't know.	16:50
Kate Ellis	But you couldn't.	16:51
Grady Williams	And he said you had to tip your hat. You had to be courteous to everybody, every non Afro-American. Everybody else was more than you are. You had to be courteous to them regardless, regardless of what they did. You could not fight back, so to speak.	16:53
Kate Ellis	Now, where was downtown? This was in—	17:14
Grady Williams	I'm referring to the New Iberia area. The Iberia Parish area.	17:17
Kate Ellis	So he would describe this to you, but even when he would describe it to you, he wouldn't talk about it with—	17:24
Grady Williams	No, you couldn't accumulate anything.	17:31
Kate Ellis	It was just a description to you of what his life was like and relationships with Whites then.	17:37
Grady Williams	Yes. And they knew when people would steal from them, just take their things.	17:40
Kate Ellis	You mean, African Americans knew this, you're saying?	17:47
Grady Williams	Yeah. They knew. For example, they knew that if you borrowed something, you would be paying back forever. And they could understand this, but they did not internalize it. I think they kind of accepted it as a way of life and just moved on with their life and accepted it that way. Whereas World War II, you could see the transition. I could see it. I could see it. And then the Korean War, which, my brothers fought in the Korean War. So I could observe the difference in them.	17:50
Kate Ellis	And what kind of differences did you see?	18:38
Grady Williams	They were very assertive. They were very much assertive. They had gone through school and they knew that there was another place that was better. They knew that they were living under certain circumstances here, but there were other places where they were more accepted. And I think to a large degree, this followed for many years. This carried, I think this was a motivating factor for many to follow until, well even, do I see any of it now? No, not really.	18:40
Kate Ellis	Any of?	19:27
Grady Williams	I don't see any of the motivation to leave the south, to escape to Chicago, to escape to California, to escape to New York. After the Korean War, this was the kind of thing that I noticed, that this was not home, there's a better place and I'd rather not be here. Some of it had started happening after the Second World War, but this is just my observations. And it followed because I think when I was about to finish high school and I thought about, there's something that I need to do. The first thought was I needed to leave.	19:28
Kate Ellis	Really?	20:23
Grady Williams	Yeah. I needed to get away. I need to get away from the south. I need to go up to the big cities and start living where I can learn to be a man and be free from some of this.	20:24
Kate Ellis	On that topic, and then I'd like to find out about where you went and what you did. Well, first of all, which, what year did you graduate high school?	20:37
Grady Williams	'57.	20:46
Kate Ellis	Okay.	20:47
Grady Williams	That was—	20:50
Kate Ellis	Okay. What was life like for you down here? What do you remember about your community?	20:53
Grady Williams	My community?	21:00
Kate Ellis	About your community and about Jim Crow [indistinct 00:21:04]	21:00
Grady Williams	These observations, I don't know exactly how I could be in tune to that at the time because my life was, I think I was kind of insulated from that. I grew up in an area where there were Caucasian families as well as Afro-Americans. We seem to have gotten along very well.	21:09
Kate Ellis	You mean in this community?	21:41
Grady Williams	In the community.	21:43
Kate Ellis	What town was this then?	21:45
Grady Williams	This was this town.	21:46
Kate Ellis	New Iberia.	21:46
Grady Williams	New Iberia. Yes.	21:47
Kate Ellis	And it was a mixed, like a salt and pepper kind of a neighborhood.	21:48
Grady Williams	Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. And yes, I had White neighbors and friends, and I had Black neighbors and friends. And we did the things that normal children did. We played together, we fought together. We fought against one another. We were aware that there was a difference, but I think life was moving too fast to pay too much attention to it. We played very hard together. We fought very hard, opposite one another. And then sometimes, together. There were no schools for the Caucasians in the immediate area so we didn't get to have that experience of being around their schools. There was a school in my community.	21:52
Kate Ellis	What was the name of your school?	22:57
Grady Williams	The school that was in my community?	22:59
Kate Ellis	Yeah. And the one that you went to?	23:01
Grady Williams	I went to that school at one time. But the school that I went to was St. Edwards, which is a parochial school. IPTS, Iberia Parish Training School, was a school that I went to in the first grade. Again, I attended that school in, I think, the seventh or eighth grade. But between, I went to St. Edwards and I graduated from Jonas Henderson High School, which was not a parochial school. I think I did graduate from the ninth grade from St. Edwards, which was the parochial school. We had what I thought was excellent education, at least at the parochial schools. I noticed a difference in education from one school to the other. We studied foreign language, we studied art. We studied music. We studied opera in the parochial school.	23:04
Grady Williams	In the public schools, it was more slanted toward Protestantism. And I had an experience, I was able to learn a little bit about the difference between the Protestants and the Catholics by going through these different schools where the leaders in one, of course, were in the Catholic schools, were non Afro-American. And the leaders in the public schools were Afro-American Protestants with their heritage as being Protestants. So that was significant, I think. I think when one would leave the private schools, the parochial schools, you'd have an experience with your White teachers. These people are teaching you. So it's kind of difficult to learn, to not accept them as—But then when you get in another community, you could see how you could live without them. But it never did really, it wasn't anything that really was an issue.	24:09
Grady Williams	One of the things that one grew to notice is the difference between the black Blacks and the Mulatto Blacks, who had a different type of, I don't know, subculture. And most of these went to the parochial schools.	25:29
Kate Ellis	These, which—	25:57
Grady Williams	The Mulattos were at parochial schools, most. And that's where I got to be with them, socialize with these people, and at an early age. And one would then get to know, and most of these people lived in the rural and were farmers and so on in this community. Farming, one thing that tend to have happened is once one could get away from the farm and move to the city, one did. And I can recall my mother really wanted to get away from the share cropping and move into the city. And she did that as soon as they had an opportunity. When my father returned from the war, it was a time that she said she wanted her children to get educated and the place to get educated was in the city.	25:59
Kate Ellis	The city was New Iberia.	27:01
Grady Williams	The city being New Iberia proper. So this was very important to a lot of people, I think. And one of the reasons that I would think many wanted to be in the city proper was because of the schools. So we did find that education was very important at that time.	27:02
Kate Ellis	Can you tell me a bit more about the subcultures of Mulattos versus Blacks? What kind of differences you noticed having sort of interacted, had friends in both communities?	27:24
Grady Williams	There was a difference. The difference that I noticed was, again, number one, the geography. Most lived in the rural. Most of my classmates who were, I don't like that term, I wish there was another that I could think of.	27:46
Kate Ellis	Which term?	28:09
Grady Williams	Mulatto.	28:09
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	28:09
Grady Williams	I don't like that term. I don't think it's a good one. But nevertheless, most lived in the rural, and most were farming. And many of them probably owned their own farms. I don't know, I don't know how that came about. Maybe it was through this, some of the Whites recognizing them. They may have bought this or maybe they were able to accumulate money because of the familial circumstances. But in the schools, I guess it was very easy to perceive these people and then look at the "Whites" and see there wasn't much difference. And then we were in the same class here and there wasn't much difference. So then it was easy, I think, to bridge the gap that the whole idea of racism maybe was something that didn't make a lot of sense. I guess the thing that I could appreciate most, and as I look back in my whole life, I could appreciate is that I didn't really feel any of that.	28:12
Kate Ellis	Of the racism?	29:38
Grady Williams	I did not really. I could see what racism was, but I shared my father's sentiments. I could feel no real hate for people. Sure, you could feel Jim Crow, you could go down and you could go places. And you know that you couldn't go in this restaurant, you recognize the restaurant as being a place where you might want to dine and you had noticed that there were different places to drink at that time. It was not uncommon to have drinking places at different stores and other public places, railroad stations, bus stations. And you would know that you didn't appreciate, yours never did look quite as good as the other one. And you had to use this one.	29:39
Grady Williams	As a matter of fact, one didn't appreciate just being told that this was White only. One didn't appreciate that, but then as I think at an early age, it was very interesting when I became nineteen and knew that I had to do something with my life and I chose, that if I had to do something, I needed to do it away. I needed to go to the city where I was not subjected to this kind of Jim Crow living. However, I may still go back and refer to the connections. If I'm studying in a classroom with this young man and this young lady who's just about as White as any Caucasian that I know, but they could not go into the places that were White only. It was just something that you can see that there's a problem with this. You make the relationship, there is a problem here. Here's a White person who can't be White. And so what is this? If I'm non-White and I got to be non-White, but they're White and got to be non-White, what's the story?	30:42
Grady Williams	So I learned at an early age, and I think I was able to really respect each man for himself. And some of my friends, we'd go to the movies and you had the White side and the non-White side, and we'd go to the movie together and then we'd separate when we got to the movies. We learned—	32:15
Kate Ellis	These were Whites or these were—	32:39
Grady Williams	These were Whites. There were no real fair Afro-Americans in my immediate community. In the immediate community. There were some others around the city.	32:41
Kate Ellis	I was asking, obviously, because I know plenty of people, they could pass when they needed to or they could. And I wasn't sure—	33:01
Grady Williams	Oh, passed for—	33:10
Kate Ellis	For White. But these people you're talking about, who you went with.	33:13
Grady Williams	Oh yes, there were Caucasians. Yeah. And there were some, not so much those in my neighborhood, because those in my neighborhood were just a little older than I was. And we didn't really do much together. We played together, but not—	33:18
Kate Ellis	Wait. You're referring to—	33:32
Grady Williams	The Caucasians in my neighborhood. We played together, but we didn't really go any places together. But later, I had friends and we would tend to go places together.	33:36
Kate Ellis	Like the movies.	33:54
Grady Williams	Like the movies. Of course, we'd have to separate once we got there.	33:55
Kate Ellis	Did you ever talk about that? When you get to the theater and you'd head in one direction with your friends and they'd head in another direction.	34:00
Grady Williams	No.	34:10
Kate Ellis	It was just something you did.	34:11
Grady Williams	This is something we did. Living life was more important than being so concerned about, I guess, who was living it.	34:13
Speaker 1	Again, since it was a way of life, you just accept it.	34:30
Grady Williams	You couldn't do very much about it.	34:36
Speaker 1	You had when you were doing your internship in technology.	34:38
Grady Williams	Oh, well, this was a period quite a bit later. When I did finish high school, the second day I finished high school, as a matter of fact, I was pretty much a rebel when I was in school. But during the last week, we had a career day and I decided that I needed to really do something serious for once in my life. So I decided that I needed to go to college because there were others in my family. My mother, as I mentioned before, strong believer in education. And so some of the children before me, I was the last of six, had gone to college. So while I never did really think of whether I would go or not, when it was appropriate for me to do something, I decided to go to college. But I knew that my family, I didn't think my parents could afford to send me. So it was a matter of working my way through college.	34:45
Grady Williams	And the second day after graduation, I was on the way to New York City. But before, I had all sorts of little enterprises, little businesses going where I would earn my own money. And I was accustomed to, everybody in my family were pretty much enterprising where we had jobs and we'd earned enough to do what we needed to do. And I think my parents were kind of progressive. When it was time to get a washing machine, we got one. And although she used, my mother used this washing machine in several capacities. She didn't only wash our clothes, she washed other people's clothes, mainly the Caucasians clothes and ironed them and so on. So this was a little industry going on at home. But I thought that my parents were fairly progressive and tried to try to acquire things. They built a new home before I was born.	35:53
Kate Ellis	His training. Let me just ask something. What did your parents, your mother would take in laundry?	37:08
Grady Williams	Yes.	37:14
Kate Ellis	What did your father do?	37:15
Grady Williams	As I said, he got a pension. But he did several little odd jobs. He did learn to repair shoes, so he was sort of a cobbler. He learned, and I don't know where he learned that, maybe he did it after he had gotten out of the military and I don't know, but he did that. He also was a barber. He cut hair and he raised chickens and all sorts of things. And he collected the pension, I guess. We never did have much, but we seemed to always have pretty much what we needed.	37:17
Kate Ellis	The kids, it sounds like were doing their own, finding other ways to get what they needed, as you said.	38:09
Grady Williams	Yes, yes, yes. There were many things to do so that one could earn extra income at that time. You didn't have to be very enterprising to find things to do. There was always things to do.	38:19
Kate Ellis	Like what?	38:34
Grady Williams	Oh, I can remember one of the little projects that we would do was sell seeds. You look in the magazines and if you wanted to become a dealer, I guess, selling seeds or selling medicines, you write off and you become a salesman. Then you go from door to door selling these things. And when I go to some of the countries in the Caribbean, and I see little children now doing some things, I recall some of the days when I was growing up where we would find things to do to earn income in the summer. And we'd work in the fields to some extent, picking cotton. I didn't do that very much, but cotton and pepper and that kind of thing. I think later, well, you could always go out and pick the pecans and sell those and earn some income, some money. At that time, a quarter went a long way. But which direction did we go?	38:36
Kate Ellis	I think that your wife would like you to talk about the training.	39:52
Grady Williams	Oh, that was after college. When I went to New York City, that was interesting. My sister was in New York. I didn't necessarily go to live with her, but I had a friend who had gone just before I did. And we decided that we'd go and meet him. So it was three nineteen-year olds that got together and got a room up in the place in New York and got jobs after walking the streets of Broadway. And literally, I walked just about half that city. But I felt something that at that time, it was very important to get a high school education. So I felt, look, I was a high school graduate, so I was somebody. You don't just treat me like nobody. And many times we had to take these tests and I said, "Well, this is a new experience." But there were certain jobs I did not want because I felt that they were demeaning for a high school graduate.	39:56
Grady Williams	And as I look back, I thought that was pretty good, because before, it's interesting, I did lots of yards. I would clean yards and I had jobs as a janitor. I had contract jobs where I'd go in on Saturdays and in the morning before school and after school and do some work. And I thought this kind of work was kind of dignity, dignified work. It was something where you were in control. But I heard about these factories in New York, and I said, "That's not a place I wanted to go." Not that I had read about the sweatshops or any of that, because I hadn't, but I just got the impression that what I'd left was better than that. So now that I was a high school graduate, I needed something better.	41:07
Grady Williams	So I did go to work in a hospital and I couldn't get a job as an orderly or in another area. I don't remember where another better area was in the hospital. So I had to accept the job in the laundry. And this was temporary. So I said I'd do it because I was, at the same time, looking for a school and applying for schools. My friend and I, we had decided that we wanted to be medical lab scientists. So this is what we started doing. And I think I have a phone call, maybe a place to stop.	41:59
Speaker 1	I'll check.	42:42
Grady Williams	You might stop it anyway. Pause.	42:44
Kate Ellis	Sure.	42:46
Grady Williams	Sure.	42:47
Kate Ellis	Which hospital was it that you worked in?	42:48
Grady Williams	Oh, this was in Montrose, New York.	42:51
Kate Ellis	Oh, okay.	42:53
Grady Williams	A veteran administration hospital.	42:54
Kate Ellis	You still didn't talk about—	42:56
Grady Williams	So it was interesting. I'll get to that.	42:58
Kate Ellis	Charity in New Orleans?	43:01
Grady Williams	It was interesting that just before, we were saving our money to go to school, and we learned that we could probably find better jobs in Michigan, and this was a bad time to go to Michigan. But nevertheless, we left and my friend had an aunt in Michigan, so we went up to Michigan to look around. And at that time, it was really a bad time for jobs because the auto workers were laying off lots of people. And so we came back, we went back to New York and we were about to get some fairly decent jobs in hospitals again, or we thought they were decent jobs.	43:07
Kate Ellis	In upstate New York.	43:50
Grady Williams	Yes, yes. This was another place, not Montrose, New York, but another place. Just outside, it's actually Mount Vernon, just outside of the city. You know Mount Vernon? Well, I don't know what it's like now.	43:51
Kate Ellis	I live in New York. I don't know what it's like now either, but I just know the area.	44:06
Grady Williams	Yeah. So you've been in Westchester County?	44:09
Kate Ellis	A little bit. I've driven through it.	44:13
Grady Williams	You've driven through it. I'd love to go back and see what it's like.	44:15
Kate Ellis	Come on up.	44:25
Grady Williams	After we were accepted to school, we were just about to start. I picked up a magazine and I found that the better way to study would be to go through some of the other programs, the regular college programs, to start from the bottom and go all the way from freshman in college. So we decided that we'd just get the quickest bus we could get back, and our decisions were made just that fast. Get back home. Maybe the fact that it was sometimes near the holidays had something to do with it.	44:26
Grady Williams	But we got a bus (laughs) and we got back home and decided we'd start school the next semester. And we learned that USL or SLI at the time, which is the college in Lafayette, was then accepting Afro-Americans. So well, why go to one of the other schools when you could go right to SLI? After all, we had experience then of really being out in the world because we really literally did walk from half of New York looking for jobs. And we did have some experience being assertive, and we learned some of the rules of the city in a very short period of time. Basically, if you wanted to do something, you had to speak up. And I suppose it's still that way and probably even more.	45:04
Kate Ellis	[indistinct 00:46:16] This is running down.	46:17

Grady Williams	So then we returned and went to school, and this was a totally different experience because this was our first time going to this school where it was questionable whether we were accepted.	0:04
Kate Ellis	Were you some of the first to be integrated?	0:20
Grady Williams	We were some of the first. As a matter of fact, we were some of the first to go in as entering freshmen. Some of the others had transferred from other schools, but at that time, I would think there might have been perhaps less than a hundred Afro-American students on campus. And this was an experience. Many times you didn't know how the teacher would accept you, and they were holding all of the trump cards. But on campus, we were not really accepted into any of the athletic programs. So we didn't go to any of the games. You wouldn't dare take a chance going to a football game at night.	0:24
Kate Ellis	Because most likely you'd get beat up?	1:29
Grady Williams	That's right.	1:31
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	1:32
Grady Williams	Most likely. Just numbers.	1:32
Kate Ellis	If you had to put money on it.	1:38
Grady Williams	Yeah, you'd probably get into all sorts of fights and get beat up many times before getting home, if you'd make it. So one wouldn't do that. You'd just go to school. And this was a period of time where one could really see what it's like. Because then, and I could then go back and think about these people in World War II, make that connection.	1:40
Kate Ellis	Of what that would've been like for them.	2:09
Grady Williams	What we were going through, or what some of us were going through, and sensing, feeling, observing, must have been the way these people felt. Here you're just isolated from so many things. In New York, I was able to go to many of the shows. I was able to go to restaurants. And I was interested in etiquette. I wanted you to be served with more than a knife, and a fork, and a spoon, or just more than a spoon, or a knife, or a fork.	2:11
Grady Williams	And I wanted to have several-course meals, and I was able to do that. Came back to Louisiana and I said, "Well, now at least on the campus, we were able to eat in the Student Union." I don't think that any Blacks or Afro-Americans were allowed to live on campus. This probably came long after, but this was not our concern. The Catholic Student Center was a place where we were welcome, felt welcome, and many of the Afro-American students would congregate at the Catholic Student Center.	2:52
Kate Ellis	Who ran the Catholic Student Center?	3:40
Grady Williams	It was under the Newman's Club.	3:44
Kate Ellis	Under the what club?	3:47
Grady Williams	Newman Club. And I think Cardinal Newman, he was a Cardinal, and I'm not sure, but he must have been some way affiliated with education. And he was a minister and established these Catholic Students' Centers on various campuses. And that would be the extent of my knowledge. But nevertheless.	3:47
Kate Ellis	I ask about it only because in some of the interviews I've done, Catholic African Americans really had their faith tested as far as some of their experiences in churches where they were made to sit in the back of the church. And where nuns who taught them, might have been good to them, committed to them, to their education, to their growth as individuals, but White priests would be a totally different story. So I'm curious, this sort of sub-theme that comes up. I'm curious about it.	4:11
Grady Williams	I remember some of these things. I remember that even the church where I was baptized—	4:50
Kate Ellis	What church was that?	4:59
Grady Williams	That was the little church in Loreauville.	5:00
Kate Ellis	Called?	5:02
Grady Williams	The White Church.	5:03
Kate Ellis	Oh, okay.	5:04
Grady Williams	Okay. But I think we had to be baptized somewhere other than where the Whites were baptized. I think there was quite a bit of Jim Crow in some of the priests. I don't know. Saint Edward's was a mission and this was all Afro-Americans.	5:04
Kate Ellis	Yeah. But the nuns were White, obviously.	5:26
Grady Williams	The nuns were White, the priests were White. This was their mission.	5:29
Kate Ellis	Right. Again, yeah, so they were committed to—	5:34
Grady Williams	And I don't know. Yes, they were committed to our development, and they did a fine job of it. They were educators and they did teach. They taught us well.	5:37
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	5:47
Grady Williams	Many of them were from other places, other countries. So I was just thinking maybe a few weeks ago, but I mentioned that we went on a cruise. And some of my friends were Protestants, so they're not really familiar with the Catholic faith, and the parochial schools. And I remarked that I can remember singing these songs When Irish Eyes Are Smiling, and that kind of thing when I was growing up. And all of these different songs that reflect the Irish, and that kind of thing. But later you look back and say, "Well, it was pretty good." You got a chance to sample somebody else's culture. And I think that's what's good.	5:47
Grady Williams	I think it's good to the point where another facet of, and on that very same note, which caused me to, I have very short patience with people who are narrow-minded. This, on that same note, reminds me of a time when—I understand very little French. It was spoken, my mother spoke it, my father spoke it, and my family, any time there were adult company, they spoke French, not English.	6:49
Grady Williams	But I learned a little bit. I took French in school. But some of the French songs here were, I guess, the Cajun songs were French. And when I mentioned that I could appreciate, or there was in general conversation and a person was saying something about a song. And when I mentioned that, "Hey, I could appreciate that song, I really like it." He really looked at me as to say, "Well, you're Black. You can't appreciate this song. You got to be out of your mind." And I just read his mind, and I saw how narrow it was.	7:30
Kate Ellis	Now, who was this?	8:18
Grady Williams	This was a Caucasian person.	8:20
Kate Ellis	Uh-huh.	8:23
Grady Williams	A very local person who had been reared in this community, who has not lived. Who has gone to school, finished college, so to speak, but who have not been educated. And it was just so awful. A song. As I said, when I was nine years old, I was singing When Irish Eyes Are Smiling, and singing French songs, real French songs, and going to opera in French.	8:25
Kate Ellis	And he's saying—	8:56
Grady Williams	Going to the opera house where opera were done in other languages, and I studied them. And this person couldn't understand how I could appreciate a little song where somebody was singing with a fiddle. So I think they educated, they taught us well, and I can appreciate that, because today I can appreciate any music and art, and I think that's good. And I can even appreciate rap. My son wrote a thesis in defense of rap.	8:56
Kate Ellis	Really?	9:40
Grady Williams	Okay. Yeah. So I thought that was cute. But anyway.	9:40
Kate Ellis	Let me just get a couple things, and we can keep going on the trajectory. But what church did you go to growing up then?	9:47
Grady Williams	St. Edward's.	9:55
Kate Ellis	Okay. Oh, it was the St. Edward's Church. St. Edward's School.	9:55
Grady Williams	Mm-hmm. Yeah.	9:59
Kate Ellis	Okay. And was there segregation in that church?	9:59
Grady Williams	No.	10:01
Kate Ellis	Because that was a Black Catholic church?	10:02
Grady Williams	Yes.	10:04
Kate Ellis	Okay. Black Catholic school? Yes, Black Catholic church. Okay.	10:05
Grady Williams	Mm-hmm.	10:07
Kate Ellis	But baptized in a little White—	10:09
Grady Williams	Oh, yes. But this was before we moved to New Iberia. This was in another community.	10:11
Kate Ellis	Okay. And that was in the rural community?	10:16
Grady Williams	Yes.	10:16
Kate Ellis	Okay. And then when you're—Okay.	10:17
Grady Williams	Yeah.	10:18
Kate Ellis	Just wanted to get that.	10:18
Grady Williams	Yeah.	10:18
Kate Ellis	So this was all sort of a diversion from going to the Catholic Center on campus, and finding that to be a place that was welcoming.	10:25
Grady Williams	Yes, yes. However, I didn't spend much time there. I guess I then learned to be like a loner, had very few friends, and I didn't particularly want any. I changed my life. I wanted to be alone. I wanted to get this period over in my life, so that I could go back to New York and live.	10:33
Kate Ellis	So that's what you were—	11:02
Grady Williams	This is all I wanted to do. This was school. It was a practical thing. It made sense at the time. I really wanted to get back to New York where I could grow, and my mind could be expanded. I could get a good job, and I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to earn enough income to buy a home in Westchester County, and that kind of thing. This was just a means.	11:03
Grady Williams	On campus, I didn't pay much attention to what was happening. When I did, I got a job at a hospital in a lab as an apprentice, and I was studying. I took courses that were kind of advanced as soon as I could. As it turns out, it cost me more time in school, but I wanted to get away. So I just was trying to get just what I needed to get out of here. And I got a job at the hospital so I could have experience at the same time I got the degree, and I was gone. But we did experience quite a bit of this. This is what my wife was talking about. Where I met friends, and it was quite an experience to study in the same school, take the same courses. Do well in some, poorly in others, do better than some.	11:45
Grady Williams	And when one went to the dining room, the Whites went to a nice dining room, as nice dining rooms might go. And the Blacks had to go, or Afro-Americans, had to go around in this little corner. And whether they were a registered nurse, had to go in this little corner, while the orderlies and this kind went in the big dining room. Some of these people had zero investment in life, zero investment in social and economic development. And they could enjoy the big dining room, so to speak. And so this, and each time I didn't forget, each time I'd walk in that place, I'd say, "Okay, this is another time." And I would count them.	12:57
Kate Ellis	Really?	13:56
Grady Williams	And I would count them. And I just knew that someday I would be out of it. I needed this for the period of time, and then there was no way you could get me to come back. But my friends were genuine, and I was genuine to them. I just didn't like the circumstances. One time, I liked sports cars, and I had, as one who was a bit enterprising, I was able to buy a car. I had a fairly nice car when I was in college because I worked hard. And I can recall driving down, several times getting arrested, for being—This fellow who happened to be Caucasian, was a friend. And we were studying and working at the same place. And on campus he lived in one place, I lived in another place, but we were independent. I had a room in a certain boarding house, and he had one in another.	13:56
Grady Williams	Well, we would visit one another, and worked at the hospital. We didn't have any courses together because he was studying something else. But we did a lot of running together, a lot of socializing.	15:12
Kate Ellis	But you were—	15:34
Grady Williams	I liked sports cars. And I can remember one day we went in my car to a race. And these were sports car rally-type thing. And we were watching the race, and two policemen came up, and said that the license plate on my car belonged to another car, and it was a stolen car. So I didn't know exactly where he was coming from at the time.	15:36
Kate Ellis	Really?	16:16
Grady Williams	But then eventually it got to the point where they put us out of the race. We had to leave. We couldn't be there. And the only thing that we could figure, of course, is that it was because I was Afro-American. And another time we were arrested, and this happened in New Iberia, just for walking down the street together. We were together. And I guess this was—Oh, this might have been, I don't know what period it was.	16:17
Kate Ellis	Sounds like the early 1960s.	16:56
Grady Williams	It was, yeah.	16:57
Kate Ellis	I mean, yeah.	16:57
Grady Williams	This was before the Civil Rights things. But I remember I did some kind of things that were, other things just before that period, when I was still in high school and had jobs and you couldn't go to the soda fountain and sit. And naturally, the corner drugstore, this drugstore the kids would hang out, and play the music in the jukebox and all of that. Well, I could remember times when I would do my little private sit-ins. This was just before these kind of things, because I knew, well, I just felt that this just didn't make sense.	16:57
Kate Ellis	So what would you do?	17:40
Grady Williams	Well, I'd just go in, and sit at the bar and order something.	17:43
Kate Ellis	And what would they do?	17:46
Grady Williams	I wouldn't just go down and sit at the bar, sit at the middle and go and play a record and that kind of thing. But I'd order it, and I'd always take it out. I never really did have any kind of incident, except I had lots of fights with the people who were patronizing this place. And at that time there were little gangs and so on. And I was, in many times I was in places where I maybe wasn't supposed to be.	17:49
Kate Ellis	You mean in Caucasian areas?	18:13
Grady Williams	Probably in Caucasian territories. You see? Because I had jobs. You see, I had a job on Main Street, and the drugstore was on Main Street. So when I wanted a Coke, a soda, I had to go to the drugstore, because in the summer I was working all day at this particular place. And the owner of the place was just this kind of racism was just far below him. He was really a man of dignity, and still is. And I still hold him in high esteem because he was not that way.	18:16
Kate Ellis	In other words, you would go in there, and you could get a Coke from him? I mean, am I following you?	19:11
Grady Williams	Oh, no, I worked in another place, but I would go in this place because it was not very far.	19:17
Kate Ellis	Right. I see. Okay.	19:22
Grady Williams	Okay?	19:22
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	19:22
Grady Williams	And I don't know that anybody recognized me or anything like that. I know there weren't many, I was probably the only one doing that kind of thing.	19:24
Kate Ellis	Going in there and just—	19:32
Grady Williams	But people got to know me. And I got into many fights all over the town.	19:33
Kate Ellis	Because they resented you doing it?	19:38
Grady Williams	Probably, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But anytime I was seen in other places, even with some of my other friends who were Afro-American, it was a fight. So just many times, one would get tired of these things. But again, this was high school. And then after, of course, we left. And then came back. College was different.	19:39
Kate Ellis	That was the kind of thing that you felt you wanted to get away from? I mean, when you said earlier—	20:03
Grady Williams	I didn't—Again, it was kind of strange. I did not want this. I had enough. When it was time for me to go, I had enough. When it was time to graduate from high school and move on to something different, it was time. It just happened at the right time, because at that time, I just had enough. I lived and enjoyed a fine adolescence here. I really did. And I really felt good about myself all the way through. I did. I worked hard, and I played hard. And I did not feel any hate. These people that I did have to fight most of the time I knew they were small-minded people. I didn't fight because I hated them. I knew they were White. As a matter of fact, I kind of liked some of them.	20:11
Kate Ellis	Really? Did you?	21:09
Grady Williams	Yeah. I thought some of them were kind of cool.	21:18
Kate Ellis	Even though they would—	21:20
Grady Williams	Yeah, it was something that, it was just shortsighted on their part. They couldn't do any better. They couldn't do any different. They had to express themselves that way. I didn't feel that I needed to express myself that way. But then again, when I went out to college and things were a little different then, but the attitude was then really to focus on getting away.	21:22
Kate Ellis	Yeah. Well, even though this isn't as relevant to the sort of Jim Crow period, what happened after you got out of college? Because you ended up back here. So where did you go from college?	21:55
Grady Williams	Back to New York.	22:12
Kate Ellis	And did you work there?	22:14
Grady Williams	Yeah.	22:15
Kate Ellis	Where? I mean, I'm just trying to get a sense of what—	22:16
Grady Williams	Sure. I worked at Misericordia Hospital.	22:21
Kate Ellis	Which was?	22:23
Grady Williams	In the Bronx. Yeah, I think in the Bronx. And I was being drafted then. And it was at that time that I said, "No way was I going to go and fight for this kind of stuff."	22:23
Kate Ellis	Really?	22:37
Grady Williams	No way.	22:38
Kate Ellis	For this kind of racism?	22:39
Grady Williams	Yes.	22:41
Kate Ellis	This kind of segregation?	22:41
Grady Williams	Yes. No, there was no way that I was going to do that. But I knew that there were things that you do if you avoided the draft. So I got a deferment, an education deferment.	22:41
Kate Ellis	And you were in medical school? I mean, you got an education deferment.	22:56
Grady Williams	Well, I was going into a medical laboratory specialty, and I got deferred for that purpose. But then later I thought that really my life was going nowhere, and I didn't really want to run too much longer. And I thought that my father did it, and my brothers did it, and I might just go on and do it also. But I didn't want to be in Louisiana. I didn't want to just get stationed in Louisiana. So things were happening in Germany. There was a little war going on. So I said I'd better go in and fight, and be a good soldier.	23:02
Kate Ellis	And this was the mid-'60s? Am I right?	23:47
Grady Williams	Early '60s.	23:48
Kate Ellis	Early. Okay. So already—Okay.	23:51
Grady Williams	Yeah. So I decided I wanted to go in, if this is what I needed to do, a period in my life, I did not want to come and get stuck in some military base in Louisiana or someplace. So give me the rifle, and send me to Germany, and I'll fight. So I got in the military, and it's kind of strange. I went to New Orleans, and I really didn't like the way that I was treated. First of all, they put us away in a crummy hotel, and these were all Afro-American people. And I just got the feeling that I was getting something substandard. But we didn't stay there very long. And then we were sent to Arkansas for training.	23:53
Grady Williams	And it wasn't very long before I decided that, no, it really wasn't worth it. Wasn't worth the fighting, because this really was Mickey Mouse. Here I had a college degree then, and I had some of these people who were barely—And again, education was supposed to mean something at that time. These people were barely out of grade school, as a matter of fact. And they were treating me like something less than human. And I know that they were treating most people that way, but I figured they didn't have to treat me that way, because I could understand. And I was going to do things. And after all, I figured I was disciplined, but they were overbearing.	25:02
Grady Williams	I spent six months in basic training under some of these people from Kentucky. I'll never forget them, the 100th division from Kentucky. And the racism in these people came out just after our last, when we were about to be shipped. As a matter of fact, the last week I was going to be shipped out for Germany, and the racism started to show. But there was something that came that—I was of a certain height, weight, and scored a certain amount on my test, which qualified me for honor guards in Washington DC.	26:03
Grady Williams	So the order came down that if I wanted to, I could. This was purely voluntary place. You couldn't go there if you didn't volunteer for it. But instead of going to Europe, I could go to Washington. So I decided to go to Washington, because I figured if I got to Washington, I could get out of that. There's no way I'd risk my life for what I saw in the military.	26:52
Kate Ellis	And the racism.	27:19
Grady Williams	The racism.	27:19
Kate Ellis	How did it show itself? I mean, when you said it became clear.	27:20
Grady Williams	These people they just seen—And many of them were young. And they were a national guards unit, which really meant they didn't know anything. They were supposed to do training, and they trained us. Okay. And some of them had some real military experience, but a lot of them had just left home for the first time. And these are the people who things began to show out, their racism. Just plain, simple attacks. I knew. I could recognize it. I'd seen it before, where you're challenged. Okay? You're challenged.	27:25
Grady Williams	And then once you graduate, you're no longer under their training, so to speak. So you could fight like a real man. You could fight man to man here. And so then it was something, it came down to that kind of thing, and I just didn't want to have anything to do with that kind of thing. But I saw it come up and we were able to avoid it, but it surfaced, and I was very disappointed.	28:10
Grady Williams	But then I moved on to Washington, and soon after I was there, I was in the 3rd Infantry where you had to wear the boots and clothes real sharp, and march well, and so on. And the first opportunity I got, I said, "Hey, look, I have a degree in medical laboratory. Put me there and I can do something." So when they found this out—As a matter of fact, I even mentioned that before I wanted to get out, but the people in the 100th Division wouldn't hear it. But when I got to Washington, I got choices. If I wanted to go to Walter Reed, I could go there. If I wanted to go here, you name the place you want to go. And so I said, "Well, I've been away for a long time, so I'd better go to a small place instead of going to the big place."	28:45
Grady Williams	And I did. I went to a small place, and I got to be in charge of a little laboratory and got my own world. And I did some more studying. Really I became a loner again, and I just went to school, night school, and that kind of thing. And later got married. So how did I get back here? Well, I wanted to go to more schooling. So I came back here because it was—I don't know why. It might have been less expensive. I saved up enough money. We had a child at the time. Saved up enough money to get through one year of school. So I worked weekends, most people did in Washington. Worked weekends at hospitals and so on, and earned extra money, was able to rent a nice apartment.	29:40
Grady Williams	I came back here to go back to school with the idea of leaving again. But then I had just enough money to get out. And after I went to school for a year, a job came up. I was offered a job, again in an all-White established place.	30:36
Kate Ellis	Here?	31:04
Grady Williams	Here. Okay? And it's kind of a strange situation, but I worked there for five years. Some of the people I knew had studied at the same school as a matter of fact. And they were all Caucasians because we were studying microbiology, and that kind of stuff. Not because, but we just happened to be in that department. And some of us ended up right there. So we worked together and we had a reunion about two, three weeks ago. Some of the old guys who studied microbiology, and so on.	31:06
Grady Williams	But I spent five years working in the industry here. And this was during the sit-in—Well, I guess in the military, when I was in Washington, a lot of these things were happening because the March on Washington. I was a part of the guard.	31:44
Kate Ellis	I was going to say, what—	32:00
Grady Williams	At that time. And when Kennedy was killed, I was in Washington. I was there when Medgar Evers was killed. I was there for, as I mentioned, the March on Washington when Martin Luther King was there. I couldn't go. I had duty, I was restricted. But much of what was going on at that time, the sit-ins and so on, I was in the military. When I got out of the military, I got this job and I just said, "Okay, I'm going to work, and go to school." Don't remember what my goal was. I think I wanted to save up some money so that I could get away again.	32:01
Kate Ellis	And you had family at that point, right?	32:48
Grady Williams	Yeah. And I did. I worked for five years and I said, "Well, here's the chance. And I got to go." So I got into OD school, and I went to Houston and studied there, just simply because it just seemed to be the better thing to do at the time.	32:51
Kate Ellis	It's called OD?	33:13
Grady Williams	Yeah, doctor of optometry.	33:13
Kate Ellis	Okay.	33:13
Grady Williams	Yeah. So when I went there, naturally, I met lots of racism in Allah, Texas. First time meeting Texas racism.	33:15
Kate Ellis	How would you characterize Texas racism?	33:27
Grady Williams	Oh, I don't know. Guys wearing cowboy boots and that kind of thing. I don't know. But it was a different kind of thing. But I also met one of my best buddies was Texan, and he was not that way. He was a little dirty blonde guy who wore an afro. So we got together and we went through school together. And we're still close friends. But I encountered that. And just going through the studies, it's just something that you have to carry around that you don't particularly care to deal with. You don't want to do that.	33:31
Grady Williams	But it happens, and it's there. But then in professional school, it's so competitive that you don't get to know your classmates anyway until the end. And yes, indeed, at the end, you found that the guys that you saw every day for four and a half years are real people, and they're your real likable people. And then you could appreciate the experience that you went through together.	34:17
Grady Williams	Then the opportunity presented itself. I had a home here. I built a home. And I left my family here much of the time while I was away in Houston. It's just the time when it was so demanding that I couldn't get home, that I moved them over with me. And I didn't have any money. And the home that I built and paid for when I was in working, I then had to make a decision about going into practice. Well, this place, when you're just getting out, it's a kind of strange thing about where you choose to practice. You're accustomed to just being in school, and sort of channeled so much, I think, that you don't have a whole lot of self-worth the first year you're out. And you get out, and I had a few things that happened.	35:00
Grady Williams	One, this area was a deprived area, so it qualified for me to get some waiver of my student loans if I would practice here. So factor number one. Where else would I go anyway? I didn't know. At that time, I didn't care. It just didn't enter my mind to go back in the military. I don't know why it didn't occur to me, but had I gone back in the military, I could have done very well, but it just didn't enter my mind. But in retrospect, it really would've been a good idea. But I came back here. There was an ophthalmologist, an eye surgeon or physician, because he wasn't doing surgery at the time, who was retiring. And I had an opportunity to buy his building. And he happened to be Caucasian. And I bought the building from him. And then it gets into a business-type thing.	36:03
Grady Williams	And here I'm coming back home. And this is the strangest thing. I returned home to practice. I knew everybody in the town, just about, because as I told you earlier, I was all over town, and I had gone to several schools. So then I studied with many people, and I had many friends, many acquaintances. But again, after being here sixteen years, I've decided to exercise some of my options from many years ago, and at least divide my time between here and another place, which is something that I was supposed to do many years ago.	37:15
Grady Williams	I've enjoyed a very good practice here. I could get into many other things that I will not get into at this point, but Jim Crow still lives. Very much alive. Manifest itself when David Duke ran for governor. And it's very interesting. It's very interesting. But I have many friends here, many people that I love, Caucasians, Blacks, whatever. And I'll always have roots here, but I'm going to exercise now some of the things that I needed to do or I felt the need to do many years ago. So I'll divide myself, and be other places and here.	38:23
Kate Ellis	Other places up North, other places in the South?	39:33
Grady Williams	For some reason, and I hope I don't meet racism as much in Las Vegas, but I decided to go there. And then I'd like to do some things in Florida as well. So for the last three years, I've been spending my time attempting to relocate. Split up my time, and establish practice in Las Vegas. I need a break. And I guess that's how I feel now. I need a break.	39:36
Kate Ellis	A break from?	40:20
Grady Williams	Just a break. Just a break. It's very interesting what Jim Crow can do to people, and still lives, very much alive. Very much.	40:22
Kate Ellis	How do you mean? Not that I'm doubting you, but I want to hear more about what—	40:51
Grady Williams	That's another story. That's another chapter. That's current. We're talking history. We're talking history.	40:56
Kate Ellis	Yeah. You're right. [indistinct 00:41:13]. No, and you're kind of—Yeah. It's been an interesting aspect of this project too. And it makes sense to talk about this period of legalized Jim Crow laws, and when that ended. And thinking about as some sort of turning point.	41:09
Grady Williams	I was not a part of the law here, as it applied, because when the laws were really uplifted, I think this was the time that I was in the military. No. Well, the schools, the colleges, I was a part of this going to the all-White university. And I thought, I don't know, I had one Black or Afro-American instructor. In all the courses that I've taken, I had only one.	41:30
Kate Ellis	I'm not sure how much better that [indistinct 00:42:11].	42:07
Grady Williams	I don't know. But I just thought about that. And this just happened to be an elective course I took, not a serious course.	42:14
Kate Ellis	But Jim Crow laws applied to you when you were growing up in this community.	42:20
Grady Williams	Well, they did apply. But then the big revolution, I was not here when the revolution was taking place, per se.	42:24
Kate Ellis	Well, that's fine because we're letting other people document the revolution. I mean, you're talking about the Civil Rights movement. And again, I mean there's just been a lot more written about that, a lot more documented about that period.	42:36
Grady Williams	Oh yes. About that period, there is a lot.	42:51
Kate Ellis	Than there has about—	42:51
Grady Williams	About before.	42:52
Kate Ellis	Yeah. And and that before is really important.	42:53
Grady Williams	And then even shortly after.	42:54
Kate Ellis	Shortly after the Civil Rights?	42:57
Grady Williams	Mm-hmm.	43:02
Kate Ellis	Yeah. One of interesting aspects of this project is certainly finding out the ways that people resisted Jim Crow that have gone—I mean, there's somehow, I think, a kind of myth that resistance only started with the Civil Rights movement. And in fact, people had their own ways of resisting, protesting.	43:06
Grady Williams	Yeah. I think so.	43:28
Kate Ellis	Again, even when you—	43:31
Grady Williams	Private little protests.	43:33
Kate Ellis	—were you saying, "Okay, I walked in and I got my coke at the fountain." And you get people get into fights with you about it, but you had your way of saying, "I won't tolerate this." Or, "I don't recognize this as in any way making sense."	43:33
Grady Williams	Yeah. That's what I was saying. I was basically making that statement.	43:54
Kate Ellis	Yeah. And that's a form of resistance.	43:57
Grady Williams	Mm-hmm.	44:00
Kate Ellis	So anyway, I mean that's just sort of one fraction of what's kind of important about this kind of history.	44:03
Grady Williams	It's interesting that in this town, and it's got to be a part of the old Jim Crow thing, we have a small section where there are more PhDs, MDs, doctorate-level people in this town than any other place in the town. And they're all Afro-Americans. We have ambassadors, we have deans of universities, we have professors at universities all from this little town. And you never hear anything about it. The people don't know about it.	44:12
Kate Ellis	Why don't they know about it?	45:04
Grady Williams	Even the Afro-Americans don't know, or don't acknowledge that. Why? Because they were running, they left the community. And this is what Jim Crow does, you see. It fosters itself, and the good people leave.	45:08
Kate Ellis	Or are run out of town.	45:25
Grady Williams	Or get run out of town, like that other group.	45:31
Kate Ellis	The Forty-four.	45:34
Grady Williams	Like the other group. Yes. It would be interesting to—I wanted to talk with Dr. Dorsey, who was one of those, and he's still alive. Interview him. He's in Texas someplace. Yeah, Dallas. But he's still alive.	45:35
Kate Ellis	Is he the man that refused to come back?	45:48
Grady Williams	Yeah. He's one, he had a hospital here.	45:50
Kate Ellis	Wow. Is it gone? [indistinct 00:45:55] this.	45:52
Grady Williams	Yeah, he had a hospital here, and he didn't come back.	45:57

Grady Williams	—at this point.	0:01
Kate Ellis	That's how you feel it, you mean?	0:02
Grady Williams	Yeah, just at this point.	0:03
Kate Ellis	I have to clarify something, and I don't know if it's because I'm getting sleepy, but when you just said a minute ago, about the number of PhDs and doctors, I thought you said is, that they are here in a certain community.	0:05
Grady Williams	No.	0:19
Kate Ellis	But then, you said they were—	0:19
Grady Williams	They were from—	0:20
Kate Ellis	Okay. They were—	0:21
Grady Williams	They were from a certain community, in this town.	0:22
Kate Ellis	Okay. And is that the community that you were from?	0:25
Grady Williams	No, I was on the periphery. Remember, I mentioned that I was in this, as you call it, salt and pepper area. But they were just on the periphery of that area.	0:28
Kate Ellis	In a predominantly Black area?	0:41
Grady Williams	In a predominantly Black area. But they were great achievers. A large number of achievers.	0:42
Kate Ellis	And they left?	0:51
Grady Williams	Left, on their own volition, just never to return. Most of them, come back sometime. One was here, he was a priest, and he returned. Can't think of anybody else.	0:56
Kate Ellis	And you're saying, most people don't even know about this group who came from there?	1:16
Grady Williams	Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, this concludes the interview, pretty much?	1:21
Kate Ellis	Well, no. It should, it seems like we're at a good stopping place, but I have some follow-up questions, and I also didn't tell you about one other part of the interview, which I always tell people about, ahead of time. Which is, that I need to do a family history with you, which are these forms, and it asks about your parents; where they're from, when they were born, things like that.	1:32
Grady Williams	I don't have that information, right handy.	2:00
Kate Ellis	You don't?	2:03
Grady Williams	Not right handy. I'd have to give you that later.	2:03
Kate Ellis	I was almost going to say, because it's getting late, and it's almost ten o'clock, I'm wondering if you would consider getting together with me again, for a half an hour, to do this part of it, if I told you the questions?	2:05
Grady Williams	Oh, sure. Yeah, I'll find the answers.	2:17
Kate Ellis	And that way, I'll warn you right—I can even write down the dates that I like.	2:19
Grady Williams	Just tell me.	2:24
Kate Ellis	Okay.	2:24
Grady Williams	I'll probably remember. If you wrote it down, I'd lose whatever you wrote it on.	2:26
Kate Ellis	Okay. I'll need to know about Mrs. Williams, when she's born and so on. Where she's from, her occupation. Then your mother, when she was born. Is she still alive or is she—?	2:29
Grady Williams	No, she passed.	2:40
Kate Ellis	When she passed, where she was born. And then, the same thing with your father; when he was born, when he passed, where he's from. And then, the names of your siblings, and when they were born. The names of your children, when they were born, where they were born. Then, I also need to do your residential history, which essentially, is all the cities that you have lived in, and when. Not street addresses, but just how you traveled through the country. And then, your educational history. And then, your work history. And some of this, if you have a vitae or a bio of your—Sometimes that is adequate, as far as me filling out—	2:42
Grady Williams	I ain't filling out. I don't know. I have one someplace.	3:32
Kate Ellis	Okay.	3:36
Grady Williams	I need to do another one, but—	3:36
Kate Ellis	Okay. Well, we can fill that out. And then, I'll ask you about any honors or awards that you've received, and any offices you've held, your church affiliation, organizations that you belonged to; civic, community, educational, political, any sort of organization, at any time, in your life. Or certainly, any that have any meaning to you, that you can think of. And then finally, any other activities or affiliations, such as military service. Other examples; labor, unionizing, hobbies, interests, publications. And then, the final thing is, any comment you'd like to make; like a favorite saying, or phase, or quote.	3:38
Kate Ellis	And then, the final-final thing is, a release form that I've asked you to sign, so that we can actually hold onto this, and release it to the public. I mean, as far as, people who want to listen to it at the library. But again, maybe we should set up another time, just to do this part.	4:21
Grady Williams	Yeah. Okay. How long will you be here?	4:42
Kate Ellis	I'm going to be here for three and a half weeks. But as far as I'm concerned, the sooner the better, in terms of how it fits into your schedule. And I want to take a minute. I have follow-up questions for you. Things I just want to get into a little bit more, but I think even with those, that even won't take a long time. In fact, that may be good.	4:45
Grady Williams	Go on and do those, now.	5:13
Kate Ellis	Do those now?	5:14
Grady Williams	So that we can just get that later.	5:14
Kate Ellis	Okay. I'm more curious about the relationship between Mulattoes—And I agree that, that word is not the best word. But mixed-race people, however you want to say it. And Blacks in your community, I'm curious about, how they got along? Do you remember whether there was any sort of color casting, or color divisions among those groups?	5:20
Grady Williams	You know, I think it would be better, if someone else covered that aspect.	5:48
Kate Ellis	Someone else?	5:58
Grady Williams	Not me.	6:00
Kate Ellis	Oh, okay.	6:01
Grady Williams	Because I was too—	6:01
Kate Ellis	I thought you meant not me. (laughs)	6:02
Grady Williams	Yeah, not me. I was too close to that. I was very close to that.	6:05
Kate Ellis	What do you mean by close to it?	6:12
Grady Williams	Well, as I think about it, there weren't many people, who were as close to the numbers of people, who were of different colors—	6:13
Kate Ellis	As you were?	6:37
Grady Williams	And I, being a dark complexion. And I was a part of a lot of people's lives. And it just seems like, if I commented on that, I just wouldn't feel comfortable, because it's sort of like betraying your friends, or talking about things that are intimate.	6:37
Kate Ellis	It is, absolutely. And now it's—	7:02
Grady Williams	But other people, who wouldn't know it as well, and wouldn't have lived it as closely, would probably cover it better. Because they would see it from a different, and perhaps, a more pertinent view.	7:04
Kate Ellis	I will have to—I doubt if they'd cover it better than you would, but I can certainly respect your wishes.	7:19
Grady Williams	Okay.	7:27
Kate Ellis	Okay. There was something else, I wanted to talk to you about. I didn't flag it, at the time. I know I'm going to think about it later, and—Just something I want to comment on. It's not even a question, but I too, in the interviews I've done, have been really struck by the generational differences among African Americans, in terms of their perspective on Jim Crow. And talking to some people in their 80s, and I'm sure, this is not the case for everybody, but just some people I've talked to in their eighties, who've said, "Look! Race relations used to be better between Blacks and Whites. We knew where we stood with each other." You said this yourself, "It was the way it was." And, in fact, later, descendants of those people in their fifties, who themselves, I think in some sense, spoke with a lot more—At least, visible resentment of the treatment of themselves, or nuns that they respected, or teachers they respected, or others around them.	7:33
Kate Ellis	And the point being, that there was a point at which, when, as you've talked about it, there were the possibilities of a different life, of a different way, were evident to them. And it somehow made living—Perhaps, it's a speculation, but on some level, it made living with the Jim Crow segregation, much worse. To be so cognizant of how it could, and should, be different. I think that I'm saying, what you were saying. I'm just interested if that's what you've noticed, as well.	9:07
Grady Williams	Sure. A lot of people perceived that. Had that perception. I think the guys from the Second World War, just never did articulate this. And that's why I'm interested in them. You could see it. It was most profound, I think, in them, but they just were quiet about it, because that's the way they were accustomed to live.	9:48
Kate Ellis	But when they came back from the war—?	10:13
Grady Williams	A little noise, but they knew they really couldn't change. They knew more. They knew a lot more. Well, many of them were more assertive, but they knew how to get around. But there was still some things left unsaid. They never did really say it, the way they wanted to. And I think, right now, they would. I think so. I think this study is very good. I think they'd really say something, now. Say what they really felt, for the first time. And I think, that some of them might say it with tears in their eyes. It would be just that emotional, if you allow them to. Because that's what I think. Yeah, there is generation differences. And now—Well, I think my generation was kind of interesting; covered a lot of things. A lot of changes. Lots of changes. But then, to think that my children, I don't know where they're coming from. I don't know what's important to them. I don't know what they see. So—	10:16
Kate Ellis	It may take them some perspective, to be able to think about what they see.	12:01
Grady Williams	Sure.	12:06
Kate Ellis	In the same way for you. You can look back, and realize what you were seeing. But sometimes, it is harder to articulate it, when you're in it.	12:08
Grady Williams	That's right. I think you're right. But it's a very interesting subject. Very interesting, and I'd love to look at some of these things, and then, get to really interview some of the Caucasians.	12:16
Kate Ellis	I agree.	12:36
Grady Williams	That would be very interesting.	12:37
Kate Ellis	I agree with you.	12:39
Grady Williams	How could you think, or not think? But again, I could remember my father, and he would just—Some of the neighbors, across the fence kind of, conversations, and they'd talk for hours it seemed.	12:40
Kate Ellis	About their experiences?	13:03
Grady Williams	No! These Caucasians, I don't know what they were talking about (laughs) but they would visit for hours.	13:04
Kate Ellis	It's been a funny, strange institution.	13:12
Grady Williams	You mentioned about the other churches. I wasn't really aware of that, because it just wasn't a part of what was happening. But in this area, most of the churches, you see, the Sisters of Sacred Heart and Mother Katherine Drexel, had sponsored a lot of these. So therefore, they were missions, and they were different. I'm sure that after, my perspective would be totally different, if it were not for that particular person, starting this order, and having these schools for Afro-American and Indian people. So, this is quite a contribution to make. It changed a lot of lives. Touched a lot of lives. So therefore, you could see why she would be considered for canonization, giving up a lot of wealth, so that a lot of other people could live. So, anything else?	13:21
Kate Ellis	No, that's fine. If I think of a couple of questions, I may ask you to indulge me, when I come back, but it will not be as long as this. It's fine. Okay.	15:03

Item Info

Title:

Grady Williams interview recording, 1994 July 19

Date:

July 19, 1994

Creator:

Williams, Grady

Contributor:

Ellis, Kate

Description:

Name: Grady Williams; Date of birth: 1938-06-01; Place of birth: Loreauville, LA; Occupation(s): physician; Residence: New Iberia, LA
Informant ID: 653; Interviewed by: Kate Ellis.

Occupation:

Physician

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1155
RL00170-CS-1156
1fc264ea-6a15-42b2-8e60-6d40a43489e8
behindtheveil
22cab184-a8eb-4f6c-964b-ee2c3c7b1d15
ark:/87924/r4wh2rq0k
22cab184-a8eb-4f6c-964b-ee2c3c7b1d15

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Grady Williams interview recording, 1994 July 19

Transcript

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1. Grady William administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Grady Williams interview recording, 1994 July 19

Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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