Ethel Williams interview recording, 1994 July 18
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| Charles Houston | —you to state your name and your date of birth, please. | 0:01 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. My name is Ethel L. Williams. Ethel L. Williams. All right. I was born March 25th, 1910. I am the daughter of Mr. And Mrs. James H. Williams. James H. Williams are my parents. My mother, Lillian Estelle Williams, was born in a small town, Norway, South Carolina. At an early age, she moved to Orangeburg, where she attended South Carolina State College. | 0:09 |
| Charles Houston | Is that why she came here? | 1:17 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That's why she came. Well, she taught for a while in the rural area, in a town called Eutawville. There is where she met my father, who was a builder and contractor. My father's name is James H. Williams. James Howard Williams. He originally was from Barnwell County. | 1:18 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 1:46 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | To this union, there were six children born. My parents had six children. I being the oldest. My father was instrumental in drawing the plan for many of the homes in Orangeburg, South Carolina. He attended South Carolina for a few years. In fact, he used to work in the carpentry department at South Carolina State College with—Under Mr. James A. Pierce, a local professor from Orangeburg, South Carolina. Okay? My mother taught in the city system of Orangeburg at a school called Dunton Memorial School. | 1:46 |
| Charles Houston | D-U-N-T-O-N? | 3:00 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | D-U-N-T-O-N. Dunton Memorial School. | 3:01 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 3:02 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Dunton Memorial School. Located on Goff Avenue. | 3:03 |
| Charles Houston | And was that an elementary school? | 3:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | She wasn't—It was an elementary school. She taught in the grades, I don't remember exactly, first or second grade. | 3:12 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 3:23 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Uh-huh. She taught there for a number of years. | 3:23 |
| Charles Houston | Do you know when she came to Orangeburg? | 3:29 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | When did my mother come to Orangeburg? It was in the—Well, she came as a student. I really couldn't—I don't know the exact—I don't remember the years. | 3:37 |
| Charles Houston | But it wouldn't have been—You were born in 1910. | 3:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 3:57 |
| Charles Houston | And she married your dad in Eutawville or they married here? | 3:58 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | She met him in Eutawville and they got married. They lived with the family of James Glover. That's who they lived with. | 4:06 |
| Charles Houston | When they— | 4:16 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | JJ Glover. And that's where—She was boarding with the Glovers in Eutawville. And she met my father and they became engaged and they married. And of course, when she first married, they lived on Oak Street. Oak Street. That's the street where I was born. I was born on Oak Street. Later on, we moved to—The family moved to Quick Street. My father built a home on Quick Street, and had the—Was getting ready to electrify the house when he died. I was 12 years old and my father died. And there were five other children younger than me when my father died. Okay? | 4:16 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. Now, you said he was a contractor and that he built many houses. | 5:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He drew his plans and also built his houses. He drew his plans. | 5:16 |
| Charles Houston | So he was an architect? | 5:19 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, he drew his plans. It was mechanical, I guess, you call that. He drew his plans to the homes and he used to—Well, I think he used to hire people to work for him. You know what I mean? On the houses. | 5:21 |
| Charles Houston | Right. | 5:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Uh-huh. Houses leading up, all the houses down on the lower part of Russell Street probably are no longer there, but he was responsible for the building of the homes at that time on Russell Street, leading up to South Carolina State College. | 5:39 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So this was in the Black neighborhood at the time? This was in— | 5:59 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, this is a mixed—No, he worked on Black and White houses. It wasn't just Black homes. No. | 6:02 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 6:08 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mm-hmm. Now, the neighborhood in which I lived was solely Black. | 6:08 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 6:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Entirely Black. I attended Black schools. Black schools. I attended the elementary school at that time of Claflin College, until six years old. My father died. Wait, no, hold on. I'm getting it wrong. Not six. I was 12 years old when my father died. I had completed the sixth grade at Claflin College. | 6:13 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So you— | 6:45 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | You might have to do the correcting of the tape or whatnot. | 6:46 |
| Charles Houston | Oh, no, no. That's fine. | 6:48 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | You don't have it on? All right. So at the age of—After my father died, my mother's sister took me to, or at least my mother agreed to let me go and spend the fall with my aunt who lived in, what was the name of the town? Conover, South Carolina. Conover, North Carolina. Conover, North Carolina. Where I finished the grammar grades, I finished the grammar grades in Conover, North Carolina. My uncle was a principal of the school and my aunt was a teacher there. Mm-hmm. Okay. | 6:48 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Now, what grade would that have been? Eighth grade? | 7:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That would've been been seventh grade. Seventh grade. I finished seventh grade. I came back home with a large diploma, I'll call it, and I went on. At that time, the South Carolina State College had what they called academy. First, second, third, and fourth academy. Yeah, academy. You know what I mean? Like first year high school, second and like that? | 7:42 |
| Charles Houston | Right. | 8:07 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And I went into the—NC Nicks was the dean of the college at that time, and they had to interview each student as they come in. When I walked into his office, he said to me, where did I attend school and whatnot. I just showed him the certificate, the diploma or whatever I had. And he said, "Oh, this young lady finished in North Carolina. Let her go on to ninth grade." I never was eighth grade. I didn't go to the class of eighth grade because I had this diploma certificate from North Carolina, which at that time, just said the schools were a little better or a better condition in North Carolina than they were in South Carolina. | 8:07 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | So I proceeded from then on and graduated, did all my high school work and college work. Went right on in from the academy into college. I graduated from college in the class of 1927, right, at South Carolina State College. Completed my education. Went on and I began working. All right. Began working at a school in Clarendon County called Foreston Elementary—Foreston Rosenwald school. It really was a Rosenwald school. But we had to go to the nearest—To get to the school was through the woods, you know what I mean? | 8:56 |
| Charles Houston | Right. | 9:44 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right, of the little town Foreston, about 18 miles below Manning, South Carolina. That's where it was. | 9:46 |
| Charles Houston | So you were living in Foreston? | 9:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I wasn't living there. I had got married and my husband—I got married in the year of 1931, July 18th. Today is my 63rd anniversary. I've been married 63 years today. | 9:56 |
| Charles Houston | Happy anniversary. | 10:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And my husband is in there in the kitchen. | 10:11 |
| Charles Houston | Happy anniversary. | 10:13 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. Thank you. But my mother and my husband took me to this little town called Foreston, South Carolina. And the house that they took me to, they said it was one of the best little houses in Manning, but it was a very small house. In the night, when I'd go to bed, I could look through the ceiling and see the sky. That's the type of house it was then. | 10:14 |
| Charles Houston | But it was best house there. | 10:48 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | But it was the best house then there. I found out later that the man, the owner of the house was a bootlegger. Every morning, he'd get up and get on his mule, he'd ride across the woods. We didn't know where he was going. Another girl and I, from Manning, South Carolina, we lived together. We roomed together and— | 10:48 |
| Charles Houston | So your husband wasn't living there? | 11:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No. My husband and my mother took me down there, and I didn't weigh but about 89 pounds. I didn't weigh but 89 pounds when I got married. And so when they took me down there, the people thought that my husband was my father and was married to my mother. (laughs) | 11:11 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That's just a little fun that I put into it, because we laughed about that when he was in his right mind. He's Alzheimers' now. Yeah. But that's what they thought. They thought I was the daughter. I was the daughter. But I mean, they thought that my husband was married to my mother. I was just that tiny. That didn't make a difference. But anyway. | 11:29 |
| Charles Houston | But you and he, was he continuing then to live in— | 11:51 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He continued. I only came home on weekends. | 11:55 |
| Charles Houston | How far was— | 11:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And by the way, the school did not run but four months that year. Although it was a Rosenwald school, it did not run but about I say approximately four, well, maybe a little bit more than four months. Around four months, I'd say. I was home in time that year for my birthday, whatever birthday it was. And that was March the 25th, you see? So you see the schools been closed early. They closed very early. | 11:58 |
| Charles Houston | So they started when? They started in September? | 12:25 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | They started in September. And they closed—Well, that was more than four months. But then they closed—March was really—I was home by my birthday. | 12:26 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 12:35 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. I worked there only one year. One year. At the end of that year, and what we do, they would give us bond. Well, I forgot what my salary was. It wasn't very much. But anyway, they'd give us—They didn't pay you. They give you—I left there not getting my last check. You know what I mean? Whatever that was, paying me. And the superintendent's name was Brabham, Superintendent Brabham. The girl that was living in Manning, said to me, "Ethel, I'll let you know when I get my money." All right. She told me that they had gotten paid. I wrote them to tell them to send me my money, send my check to me and Brabham— | 12:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No. I went on down there and he said they didn't have the money. So I came on back to Orangeburg because I got me a lawyer, Squier Morgan. But he's deceased now, Squier Morgan. And we went on down to Manning South Carolina. That was at headquarters, you know what I mean? The county seat went on there and went in and he talked to him and he said that he just didn't, they just didn't have the money. But he pursued him and they did give me my check, they did send my money to me. But that's just how poor the state, the county was at that time. Or at least they pretended like they were poor. I did not get—I don't recall exactly my salary, what my salary was, but that's the difficulty that I had in receiving my pay. | 13:37 |
| Charles Houston | Now, was Squire Morgan White? | 14:24 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, he was a Black lawyer. Black lawyer. But when he wrote this letter, see, he first wrote the letter telling them, asking them for my money, and then they didn't know whether he was Black or White. And then when they said that I could come and get it, then the two of us went down there and got the money. Yeah, and then they found out he was Black then. | 14:26 |
| Charles Houston | So this was 1931, 1932? | 14:44 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. The early part. Yeah, I taught for only one year, then I got married. | 14:46 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So— | 14:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah, got married. | 14:52 |
| Charles Houston | Are you— | 14:56 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | July the 18th, 1932 is when I got married. | 14:56 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 14:59 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Or is it '31? [indistinct 00:15:02]. But it's 63 years. So it must have been what? | 15:01 |
| Charles Houston | It must have been—If it's— | 15:06 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | 1931. | 15:07 |
| Charles Houston | '31. | 15:07 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | '31. | 15:07 |
| Charles Houston | But you graduated— | 15:07 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I worked for one year, and then I got married here that July. | 15:08 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 15:13 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. | 15:13 |
| Charles Houston | So you graduated in '27. | 15:16 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And then I pursued—Oh, after that, I attended in-service training at South—I would teach in the day and then the afternoons, attend South Carolina State College, working on my master's degree. | 15:18 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 15:32 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I received my master's degree in 19, what, 50? Let me see. 1950. Wait, [indistinct 00:15:45] was born in [indistinct 00:15:49]. In the summer of 19, what? | 15:33 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I attended school and took courses leading up to it, and then received this letter saying that I had finished my requirements and I received my master's. | 15:56 |
| Charles Houston | And you got the MA degree in 1953? | 16:04 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. I'm trying to think, was it '53? | 16:04 |
| Charles Houston | But approximately. | 16:04 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | It was a massive because I already had my bachelor's degree in 1931. Yeah. You see? | 16:04 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Now, do you remember what you were doing? You said you got your bachelor's degree in 1927, and then you taught for— | 16:17 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Graduated from—Was that bachelor's degree? BS degree in '27? Class of '27. | 16:28 |
| Charles Houston | Well, maybe— | 16:38 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | '31, I graduated from, really, from South Carolina State College in my BS degree in 1931. 1931. No, that was high school when I said '27. Little academy. But it all it was right there at South Carolina State College. | 16:39 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. No, I understand. Okay. | 16:55 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. | 16:57 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And okay, and then as soon as you graduated, you taught for a year? | 17:01 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 17:04 |
| Charles Houston | And then you got married. | 17:04 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Got married. Then I continued to teach though. I taught at a little town called Norway, South Carolina for a number of years. I don't remember approximately how long. Norway, South Carolina. I taught there. | 17:07 |
| Charles Houston | Now, when you were teaching there, were you boarding and just visiting home on weekends? | 17:23 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I was boarding. I boarded with a family in Norway, South Carolina, and would come home on the weekends. It wasn't about 18 miles from Orangeburg. | 17:27 |
| Charles Houston | So did you come home every weekend? | 17:36 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I came home every weekend. | 17:37 |
| Charles Houston | And how did you come home? I mean, catch the bus? | 17:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My husband would come and get me. | 17:43 |
| Charles Houston | So he had a car? | 17:44 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes, my husband had a car. He'd come and get me. | 17:45 |
| Charles Houston | And when you were teaching at Norway, were there other teachers there at the school or were you the only teacher? | 17:51 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, no. There were other teachers. There were maybe about five or six teachers school. | 18:00 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And how many students did you have? How many grades? | 18:08 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And I had—Well, in those days, I had all the grades. I had from what? The kids teacher, we had a kids teacher in Orangeburg County. She came to visit me one day and I was in there with, what, about 50 or 60 students. And I had them in the various classes, various subjects. And she said I was doing a lovely job. She didn't see how I could do it because of the variance. You know what I mean? The different subjects I had to teach. In other words, it was not departmentalized during that time. You know what I mean? The classes, we were not departmentalized like we are later on. You would just be either reading teacher, science teacher or whatever, mathematics. But in those years, when I first began teaching, I taught everything. I taught everything. | 18:18 |
| Charles Houston | So the students—And you and the students stayed in the same room? | 19:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | We stayed in the same room. We didn't even change classes. | 19:12 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And were all of the students, were they all about the same age or were they selected for a class by their skill level and were they different ages [indistinct 00:19:28]? | 19:16 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | At that time, it wasn't selected by skill level. They were just in there. They were just in the class. They were not selected by skill level. | 19:27 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So did you teach a grade then like third grade or fifth grade or— | 19:36 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes, I did. Uh-huh. Well, yeah, we had grades. But what I'm saying is it was the subjects that we had. | 19:40 |
| Charles Houston | No, I understand. | 19:48 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah, we had the subjects. If it was third grade or fourth grade, we had everything that went along with that particular grade that a student was supposed to take. That one teacher was responsible for it. That's when I first began teaching. Then later on, my next job was at Holly Hill, South Carolina. Town of Holly Hill. And I taught—Oh, no. I'm sorry. I worked at St. John in Cameron. I can't forget that. My second job was St. John, Cameron, South Carolina. That's right down the road there. Little [indistinct 00:20:32]. | 19:48 |
| Charles Houston | St. John School? | 20:34 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Cameron, St. John School. Cameron, South Carolina. | 20:34 |
| Charles Houston | And you boarded there too? | 20:38 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I didn't board there. We commuted. It's four of us rode to school. Four or five would ride to school. We took turns. I never did drive, but I was riding with someone that was riding after driving. And two of the teachers worked at a smaller school called St. Peter School before they came, before they, what you call it, integrated or consolidated. This was before consolidation. You know what I mean? Of the schools. | 20:39 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Each school was separated. | 21:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | School over here, maybe was two teachers. School over here with three teachers. School over here was four and like that. Well, the first little school was named, I told you St. John really was Mount Carmel. Mount Carmel School. | 21:14 |
| Charles Houston | This was your second job? | 21:26 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Mount Carmel. Yes. Now, I'm getting to the when they consolidated. See, the only thing that I'm sorry about is I can't quote the exact year when this took place. Later on, the two schools in the district became consolidated and it was called St. John School. All right. Where they had the high school and the elementary school. | 21:27 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So this was—It's still in the early '30s? | 21:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | It's still [indistinct 00:21:53]. Yes. It's still— | 21:51 |
| Charles Houston | During the Depression? | 21:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | In Calhoun County. Yeah, the area of Depression. | 21:54 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 21:56 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. | 21:56 |
| Charles Houston | Now, can you tell me what it was like when you were boarding in Norway, South Carolina, when you were boarding, what was it like being a boarding school teacher? I mean, you lived with a family. | 21:59 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I lived with a family and they were very nice family. They had children attending the school where I attended. I mean, where I was working. | 22:12 |
| Charles Houston | Right. | 22:23 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Uh-huh. | 22:23 |
| Charles Houston | And did you have responsibilities in the household or were you strictly a guest? I mean, or were you part of the family? | 22:27 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | They treated me just like I was a part of the family. Very, very close to them. Right now, they have two daughters that are married and living in Philadelphia. And they always, whenever they come this way, they come to see me. Very close. Mm-hmm. | 22:33 |
| Charles Houston | All right. Did you take on household chores there? I mean, like a family member might have or— | 22:55 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, I did. I just took care of my room where I lived and the lady was a very good cook and she would do most of the preparation of food. Yeah, I didn't have to cook or anything. | 22:59 |
| Charles Houston | So you didn't have to clean up or anything like that? | 23:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, no. Just straighten up my room. | 23:13 |
| Charles Houston | Just your room. | 23:14 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes, my particular room. | 23:15 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Norway, I guess, is a very small town compared to Orangeburg. | 23:17 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Very small. A very, I'll say, racist town. | 23:27 |
| Charles Houston | Can you tell me about racism? | 23:31 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Very racist town. Well, I told you my mother was born there. Well, my mother was born of a slave. Her mother was a slave. My grandmother on my mother's side was a slave. They used to live on the premises of the master, you know what I mean? The big house. They lived in the big house and my grandmother lived in the small house in the back. All right. All right. Just during slavery time. And of course, I know, I guess my grandmother, I'm not trying to defend her, but she didn't have—maybe she didn't have enough— | 23:32 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, anyway, she had children by the—what, the slave master, you call him. All right. She must have had about—she had a large family, but she had—my immediate family [indistinct 00:24:29]. Set of twins. That's not on the right way. I'm trying to call it. About six or seven children by the slave master. | 24:14 |
| Charles Houston | And these were your aunts and uncles? | 24:47 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Aunts and uncles. Yes. Mm-hmm. | 24:49 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 24:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. Several of my uncles fled Norway, South Carolina, because they lynched about two or three of them. See now, nobody—I mean, I don't know whether you need all that now. | 24:53 |
| Charles Houston | Well, I'm interested in this, much of this as you want to give me. | 25:08 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, all right. I don't even know them because when they killed several of them, because my parents, I guess my mother was about to come as one of them. But my uncles were voiced people. In other words, they didn't let people run over them and they spoke their mind and that's what the White race did not like. And of course, for that reason, they lynched couple of them. My mother could not stand Norway, South Carolina, where she was born. She left there and never did go back. Although I got a job teaching there. But she didn't care for Norway. | 25:13 |
| Charles Houston | Now, your mother took you for your first teaching job. She took you to Norway? | 25:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, she didn't take me to Norway. She took me to Foreston, South Carolina. Foreston, South Carolina. | 25:54 |
| Charles Houston | So she didn't want you to go to Norway probably. | 25:58 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, she probably didn't. | 26:00 |
| Charles Houston | You don't remember whether she was opposed to that or not? | 26:01 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I don't know. But she was not in love with Norway. | 26:04 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Do you remember why your—I mean, do you remember the circumstances around which your uncles were killed or fled? I mean, do you—Any incidents that you can recall in your family? | 26:14 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, see. That was before. I guess I wasn't even—I didn't know anything. This is only what they told me. I didn't see any of those uncles. But I had an uncle—My mother had a set of twin brothers. One lived in Philadelphia and one lived in Orangeburg. Austin, Oscar. They were Evans', E-V-A-N-S, Evans was their name. My mother was an Evans. Lillian Evans Williams. That's how she was born then, I turned around and married a Williams. You see, that's why I'm still Williams. | 26:24 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 26:58 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Uh-huh. All right. But she was an Evans. Mm-hmm. | 26:58 |
| Charles Houston | And when you were there in Norway, was it still very racist? | 27:05 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, they had separate schools. They had their own schools. This little town never didn't do very much growing. They still don't own a theater. It's right up the street there, right up the road, 18 miles from here. They don't even have a theater night. Well, it wasn't any place of amusement to go. | 27:12 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. It was what, a farming town? | 27:29 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | It was a farm area. Your nearest town was Denmark, South Carolina and you could get in a car and go over there to a movie. But they still don't have a movie theater in Norway, South Carolina. That's just it never did do much growing. Mm-hmm. | 27:32 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And were there racial problems when you were there? | 27:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, I don't know of any particular racial problem. I mean, I tell you what and how it was. The Blacks just stayed to themselves, more or less, attended their schools. And the Whites did the same. Well, I guess there are still racial problems there, you know what I mean? Because you find some poorer ones that don't care about Blacks, you know what I mean? And most of all of these towns, there were some racial problems but it didn't really, didn't interfere with me, with my living too much. | 28:00 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Now, the people you lived with own their own property, I presume? | 28:33 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. They owned their own property. | 28:37 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And did they live in the countryside or in town? | 28:40 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | They lived right in the little town of Norway. Yeah, they lived in the little town of Norway and the school wasn't very far from where I was living, where I was boarding. | 28:42 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And what did your landlord do for a living? Do you remember? | 28:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He was a farmer. | 28:57 |
| Charles Houston | So he had his own farm. He owned his own farmland? | 28:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. Far as I know, he had his own farm. | 28:59 |
| Charles Houston | And that was out in the countryside somewhere? | 29:02 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. Uh-huh. | 29:04 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 29:07 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Had a lot of land around where he lived and he planted that. He wasn't a great big farmer, but he did farm. | 29:07 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And so that was your second teaching job in Norway and you commuted. Oh, no. You lived—No, that was your first teaching job after graduating? | 29:20 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, Foreston, South Carolina was my first teaching job. | 29:30 |
| Charles Houston | I need to look at that. | 29:34 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | You have that. | 29:34 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. No, I know that. | 29:35 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | In 1931, '30, '31, I taught, after I graduated, I went to Foreston, South Carolina in Manning County. And I taught there for just one year. Then I left there. | 29:36 |
| Charles Houston | You went to Norway? | 29:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | The next job was in Norway, South Carolina. | 29:51 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And then— | 29:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My third job was St. John High School in Cameron. | 29:54 |
| Charles Houston | Got it. Okay. | 29:56 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. So you have that? | 29:57 |
| Charles Houston | Right. | 29:58 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. From there, I've taught—At St. John, I was a seventh grade school teacher, in St. John. At St. John High School there, the high school and the grades. But I was the language arts teacher. Language arts. All right. From there—All right. My principal's name was Sumter S Green. Do you want that? | 29:59 |
| Charles Houston | Oh, sure. | 30:24 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I have an incident to tell you about him that's why I'm giving his name. | 30:25 |
| Charles Houston | No, that's good. This is at St. John? | 30:28 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My principal's name was Sumter S. Green. Lived in Calhoun County. Okay. There were about five or six teachers that would commute from Orangeburg, South Carolina daily. And whenever we would have a faculty meeting or a teachers, or— | 30:29 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He was controlled by the district superintendent who had his White school over in another section of Norway, I mean, of Cameron. And when we'd have a faculty meeting, we would say to him, "Mr. Green, we would like to have some supplies or whatnot to work with." Teaching supplies and whatnot. And he took the attitude, he got up one day and he said, "Well, if the grass is greener somewhere else, well, go." | 30:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That's attitude that he took because we would just voice our opinion about we thought that he needed to ask for some things from the district and maybe we would get them. He was a little—They'd give you a few little supplies, you know how to do. They had them down from the—You didn't know, but from the big school over there, you had to go up there to the county seat to get the supplies or whatnot. And Mr. JP Duffard was over the high school there, the White school in Cameron. And we were just talking and said, "We thought that you needed to ask Mr. Duffard—" And who is this? Another—Oh, my. To ask Mr. Duffard for some more supplies. And that's what he would say, "Well, if the grass is greener over there or somewhere else, why not go?" | 31:35 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | So one day, I received or got an opportunity to go where the grass, I thought it was a little greener. I was asked to work at Allen University in Columbia, South Carolina. It was a special program called the College Education Achievement Project. So I sat down with my cousin, Charles Thomas, who was a outstanding civil rights worker. Charles H. Thomas. You probably heard of him. He's my first cousin. And I told him. He was his fraternity brother, also, Mr. Green, but then he was going to, maybe [indistinct 00:33:14]. But anyway, I said to him—I sat down and my cousin and I drafted a nice letter and I told Mr. Green that I had received, or at least I had the opportunity to—I thought that I had found a place where the grass was a little greener and that I was going to pursue it. And I moved from there. I didn't move though. We commuted daily to Columbia, South Carolina. | 32:30 |
| Charles Houston | How did you do that? That's a long way. | 33:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I worked at Allen. Another four of us drove together every morning to Allen, South Carolina. And, well, it was a program that was housed by Benedict College and Allen. And some of us worked at Benedict, the same coordinator, Luns C. Richardson, who is now president of Morris College, was our coordinator. And I worked there for a good many years. I was in the department of reading, reading instructor. | 33:43 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 34:14 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 34:14 |
| Charles Houston | So you commuted daily? | 34:15 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Commuted daily. Went daily. | 34:16 |
| Charles Houston | To Columbia? | 34:20 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Columbia, South Carolina. | 34:21 |
| Charles Houston | Right. | 34:22 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. | 34:22 |
| Charles Houston | When was this? | 34:24 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, that was— | 34:26 |
| Charles Houston | Well, I mean, still in the '30s? | 34:28 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, it wasn't in the '30s. No, it was beyond. It was [indistinct 00:34:34]. I guess issued out a lot of money for different programs and things, trying to better the condition of, I guess, of Black colleges, you might say, of people that need it. But of course, we had Whites and Blacks working at this particular college. Now— | 34:32 |
| Charles Houston | Do you want me to stop for a second? | 34:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Okay. Stop that a minute. | 34:58 |
| Charles Houston | So you went to Allen and Benedict in 1967? | 35:03 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Allen. I never did work at Benedict, but that my coordinator was—The program was housed at Allen and Benedict that I worked in, but we had the classes over at Allen University and that's where I was working. But he would come over. We'd go to Benedict sometime for meetings and we'd get together and sometime he'd go to Allen to meetings. But that's where he worked. It was called CEAP, College Education Achievement Project. That's what I worked in. | 35:05 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 35:36 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mm-hmm. | 35:38 |
| Charles Houston | Now, there's a big gap then, because my impression was that you went to Norway in 1931, right? I mean, you went to Norway right after your marriage? | 35:40 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, I went to Foreston in 1931. I didn't go to Norway. | 35:58 |
| Charles Houston | Okay, but you're only in Foreston a year? | 36:00 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah, right. | 36:02 |
| Charles Houston | Then you went to Norway. | 36:03 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And from there, I went to Norway and I said, I'd say about from 1932 until—Oh, I must have stayed there [indistinct 00:36:12] a number of years. Number of years until I went, until I got the job at St. John in Cameron. | 36:05 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And you don't know when that was? I was under the impression that you were only at Norway for a short time and then you went— | 36:22 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, I stayed at Norway. I never did do a whole lot of skipping around the schools. I stayed at Norway about 10 or 12 years. I know. | 36:35 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 36:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I worked there 10 or 12—Then from there, I went on to St. John. | 36:42 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And the entire time, you were boarding there and commuting home on— | 36:48 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 36:53 |
| Charles Houston | So 10 or 12 years? | 36:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes, I was. | 36:55 |
| Charles Houston | So you had no children during that time? | 36:56 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, I had children. I was teaching when my older son was nursing. I used to come home and nurse him. That's right. But it wasn't Cecil. I have a old son in New York City, the name of Alfred Williams. | 36:58 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. When— | 37:15 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Cecil was my second child. | 37:19 |
| Charles Houston | And when was Alfred born? | 37:22 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Alfred must have been born about '33 or '34, something like that. I don't remember exactly. | 37:28 |
| Charles Houston | And if you were teaching in Norway during that time, and who looked after it? | 37:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, my mother-in-law. My husband's mother. | 37:45 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And where was she? She was with you? | 37:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | She was in—No, she was living in Orangeburg. I'd come home on the weekends. | 37:53 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And where were you and your husband making your home in Orangeburg when you were home on weekends? Where were you living here? Were you living with her? Was she living with you? | 37:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, it wasn't, but one while we lived with my husband mother on Maple Street in Orangeburg, that's across town. And the other time, I was living with—But that's in the past years. That would be, I guess, in the '70s or whatnot. Then we lived with my mother on Quick Street. We lived with her until she passed. | 38:12 |
| Charles Houston | This is in the 1970s? | 38:37 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. But my mother died in 1950 something when she died. She died a year before my daughter was born. My daughter is what, about 42 years old. There was a long gap between my daughter and Cecil. It was 13 years between my daughter and Cecil, my baby girl. | 38:39 |
| Charles Houston | So during the 1930s, you were living—When Alfred was born, you were living with your husband's mother? | 39:03 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. For part of the time, yes. And then from there, we moved on over to my mother's house. My mother's on Quick Street in Orangeburg. | 39:13 |
| Charles Houston | This is also in the 1930s? | 39:24 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [indistinct 00:39:30]. Well, now, if I taught too, must have been running into the '40s, it had to be, because if I taught—How many years did I tell you at— | 39:30 |
| Charles Houston | 10 or 12. | 39:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | 10 or 12 at Norway. | 39:42 |
| Charles Houston | So you went there in 1932, roughly. So you were there until about the end of the war. | 39:46 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, yeah. | 39:49 |
| Charles Houston | You were telling me the phone call was from Mardell Sally? | 39:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mardell Sally Bing. | 39:53 |
| Charles Houston | Bing? | 39:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mardell Bing, yes. | 39:53 |
| Charles Houston | B-I-N-G? | 39:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | B-I-N-G. Yeah. She was born to Clifton Sally. But she married a Bing. Tyrell Bing. Uh-huh. Who's a veterinarian in Greenville, South Carolina. | 39:54 |
| Charles Houston | And Mardell is your niece, she's your sister's daughter? | 40:11 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Sister daughter. | 40:15 |
| Charles Houston | And she was raised by you? | 40:16 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Raised by me until she attended South Carolina State College. And she stayed with me and attended school until she graduated, until she finished. I don't know when finished college [indistinct 00:40:31] about second or third year college, junior college. Then she got married to this fellow Tyrell Bing. And they went on down to Tuskegee and he graduated from veterinary medicine. She was the secretary of Department of Home Economics at the time while he was attending school. Uh-huh. | 40:18 |
| Charles Houston | Now, why did your—When was she born, Mardell? | 40:49 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mardell was born—Mardell is between—Mardell's been already married about what? Mardell and my oldest son about almost the same age. Mardell may be a year or two younger than he is, between CJ and— | 40:52 |
| Charles Houston | So she was born in the early '30s? | 41:08 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. Uh-huh. | 41:10 |
| Charles Houston | And you said her mother migrated to New York? | 41:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mother lived, yeah, went to New York to work. | 41:13 |
| Charles Houston | And how old was Mardell when her mother left? | 41:17 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mardell was a little about two years old when her mother left. | 41:18 |
| Charles Houston | So her mother went to the New York in the mid 1940s? | 41:23 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 41:28 |
| Charles Houston | And she moved there to work? | 41:28 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Uh-huh. | 41:30 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 41:30 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And of course, her and her husband, her husband—Mardell and her husband were living with us on Quick Street. And Mardell went to New York to get a job. The husband was teaching, but then he decided that he'd go into New York with her, you know what I mean? | 41:31 |
| Charles Houston | Mm-hmm. | 41:47 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And they stayed up there for a while. And so in the meantime, while they were up there, we took—Mardell was with us. | 41:49 |
| Charles Houston | Mardell never moved to New York. She continued— | 41:58 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, she never moved to New York. No, no. She would visit her mother in the summertime after she got grown. She never lived in New York. | 42:00 |
| Charles Houston | So they had all been staying at—Now, when you were on Quick Street, you were at your mother's place, right? That was your mother's house? | 42:09 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My mother and dad's. Yeah, my mother and dad. He bought the home around there. He was getting ready to electrify it when he died. Telegram post was out in front of the door. | 42:18 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Did the other family members kind of leave town, looking, going north, looking for better jobs? | 42:33 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Quite a few. Most all of my relatives have left town. They're not in Orangeburg. I have a brother living in St. Albans, Long Island, who left here years ago. I guess because of working conditions. My brother. I had a sister that lived up there for years, but she has passed. She's deceased now. | 42:40 |
| Charles Houston | Where does she live? | 43:15 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | She lived in New York City for a number of years, but she retired and came home to Orangeburg but she died. She's deceased now. | 43:16 |
| Charles Houston | What did she do in New York? | 43:18 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | She worked with this live in family. That's what she did. Took care of a family, whatever. | 43:18 |
| Charles Houston | Mm-hmm. And what did your brother in St. Albans do? | 43:27 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My brother worked at a hotel in New York City. | 43:34 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 43:45 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. | 43:45 |
| Charles Houston | Now, do you know what kind of work he did there? | 43:45 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | What you call them, bus boys or whatever? I imagine it— | 43:50 |
| Charles Houston | He worked in a restaurant? | 43:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. He worked for—not a restaurant. Maybe so, taking the baggages upstairs and whatnot. Busboy, they call it, don't they? Whatever you want to— | 44:02 |
| Charles Houston | Like a bellhop. | 44:03 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Bellhop. Yeah. That's what it's called. | 44:03 |
| Charles Houston | And did they move about the same time? Did they move up in the '30s? | 44:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. They didn't really—Didn't particularly care for school. So they just went on and migrated to the north. | 44:14 |
| Charles Houston | But this was about the 1930s? About the same time that Mardell's mother went? | 44:20 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Probably so. I think so. No, my brother went into the service. He was into the Navy prior to that. He attended, Denmark Area School in Denmark, South Carolina. And took up a trade called barbering. He was a barber. Then he was called into the service. No, no, I got it backwards. He went into the service, and then from there, when he came back home, he went over to area school and took barbering. | 44:30 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And then he moved to New York? | 45:05 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And then he moved to New York after that. | 45:06 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And what about other—How many brothers and sisters did you have? | 45:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | It was six of us. I had a brother and sister that preceded—They have been dead a number of years. My baby brother went to New York at an early age and he took sick and died up there. And I have a sister that also passed away and died, but she died in Orangeburg. | 45:15 |
| Charles Houston | So were you the only one— | 45:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | So we were the four that were left. It was only four of us left to really— | 45:46 |
| Charles Houston | Were you the only one who finished college? | 45:48 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I'm the only who really finished college. But my mother always did say that if the others did not finish, it was not because of her. Because she struggled and tried to educate them. And if they didn't care to go to college, that was them. I'm the only one that finished college and took up teaching as a career. I'm the only one because I was living in the south and it really was not anything else to do at that time if you were not a teacher. But not the different businesses and careers that they have now. But that's why I took up teaching and I love to teach. | 45:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [indistinct 00:00:00] it was not integrated—segregated at all. Not at [indistinct 00:00:05]. | 0:00 |
| Charles Houston | So, your husband was a tailor in Orangeburg. | 0:06 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He was a tailor. Yes. In Orangeburg, South Carolina. | 0:08 |
| Charles Houston | And did he train at the university, too? | 0:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Did he do what? | 0:12 |
| Charles Houston | Train at State College? | 0:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He took some courses at South Carolina State University under South Carolina College, then under Mr. Charles Waterman, who was a first-class tailor at that time at State College. | 0:12 |
| Charles Houston | And did your husband have his own shop? | 0:29 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Had his own shop on Broughton Street in Orangeburg. | 0:31 |
| Charles Houston | And he had Black and White customers. | 0:41 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, yes. | 0:42 |
| Charles Houston | So, he was doing very well. | 0:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He was doing very well, yes. | 0:53 |
| Charles Houston | So did— | 0:56 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Did well. | 0:57 |
| Charles Houston | I presume if you'd wanted to, you could have moved into your own home. But I mean, you lived for a time— | 1:01 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [indistinct 00:01:10]. | 1:09 |
| Charles Houston | —with his mother and— | 1:09 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, I'll tell you. | 1:10 |
| Charles Houston | —then for a time with your mother? | 1:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I lived with my mother because all of the other children went north and left my mother. My mother was alone after my father died. I felt like I needed to be near my mother, and it was my choice, really, to stay with my mother. At the same time, I got married, you see? | 1:12 |
| Charles Houston | Yes. | 1:33 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | So we just stayed, remained there with my mother. | 1:33 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So really, you moved in with her to take care of her. | 1:35 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 1:38 |
| Charles Houston | To take care of her. | 1:38 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. To take care of her. Uh-huh. And we did that. Then, because of, I guess, the kindness and how nice we were to her, she gave us a piece of property on the corner of Quick Street where—made it out to me and my husband. All right? | 1:39 |
| Charles Houston | Right. | 2:08 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | She said we'd been so nice to her, she wanted us to have it. So, I told my husband that the only way we would sell that property was that we would get another home. We'd get something for ourselves. | 2:09 |
| Charles Houston | Was there a house on the property? | 2:23 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No. No house. Just the empty lot. Just the empty lot on it. But you know how sometimes men want to sell everything they got and all like that, so I did not agree that he sell the property unless we would put it towards another home. So, that's what we did. That's how we got our home on Ashland Drive. | 2:24 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I used to live on Ashland Drive before I moved out here. I've been out here about almost 20 years. But prior to that, I lived on Ashland Drive. We had a home. | 2:48 |
| Charles Houston | And when did you move onto Ashland Drive? | 3:00 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Moved on Ashland Drive? | 3:03 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. When did you acquire that property? | 3:07 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, my. | 3:10 |
| Charles Houston | I mean, how long did you live with your mother, I guess, is what I'm asking? | 3:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I lived with my mother until she passed. And that was—Let's see. My daughter's, what, 42 years old. And this was 19—what? | 3:14 |
| Charles Houston | This is 1994. | 3:18 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | '94. | 3:18 |
| Charles Houston | If your daughter's 42— | 3:36 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | 42. | 3:37 |
| Charles Houston | —she'd— | 3:38 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | It'd be 19, what, '50— | 3:38 |
| Charles Houston | She— | 3:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | 1952? | 3:42 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. That sounds right. | 3:44 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | 1952. | 3:45 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 3:45 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. | 3:45 |
| Charles Houston | So, you lived there until 1952. | 3:48 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I'd say that. All these is approximation. I don't have any dates. | 3:50 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 3:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. 1952. All right. | 3:54 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 4:00 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Okay. And we moved on to— | 4:01 |
| Charles Houston | Then you moved to Ashland— | 4:04 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —Ashland Drive. | 4:05 |
| Charles Houston | —around 1952. | 4:05 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. | 4:07 |
| Charles Houston | But during the '30s, up until the end of the Second World War, during all that time, you were living— | 4:08 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Living on Quick Street. | 4:17 |
| Charles Houston | —with your mom. | 4:21 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | With my mom. | 4:21 |
| Charles Houston | And you had Mardell and your oldest son, and then Cecil was— | 4:21 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Cecil. | 4:26 |
| Charles Houston | —born in 1937. | 4:26 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mm-hmm. Yeah. | 4:28 |
| Charles Houston | So that's, including Mardell, four children that I know about: your oldest son, your daughter, Cecil— | 4:32 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Cecil and Mardell. | 4:42 |
| Charles Houston | —and Mardell. So, that's four altogether? | 4:43 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Mm-hmm. | 4:43 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 4:45 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Okay. That's all. And that was enough— | 4:45 |
| Charles Houston | That's enough, yeah. | 4:48 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. That was enough. | 4:48 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Especially while you were commuting— | 4:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. | 4:53 |
| Charles Houston | —because you were actually commuting a large part at that time for—Well, you were commuting until 1944. | 4:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. But when I got this work at St. John, that was right down the road there a little piece. I'd come home every day. I didn't really stay. I'd come home every day. Uh-huh. Then when I got job over in Holly Hill, South Carolina, doing a period between Allen University—Finally, they had the close one year because of funds. So, I got busy and got me a job down in Holly Hill, South Carolina. I didn't stay there but about one year. | 5:02 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. But this was late [indistinct 00:05:37] | 5:36 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. That was late. Oh, that was late. So, you don't really want that. You don't want that. | 5:37 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. No. I'm more interested in this period of the '30s and the '40s, and particularly in the '40s, because by the early 1940s, there were some things going on here in South Carolina in terms of civil rights. | 5:41 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Well, they were demonstrating, and we were very active in that. There's a picture up there of my daughter. I think I'm on a picture up there, if you want to see that. | 5:52 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. Let me turn this off. We'll look at the picture. | 6:06 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —and teaching salaries at that time and— | 6:08 |
| Charles Houston | In the early '40s. | 6:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | We didn't really know what the other man was getting as far as the salary's concerned. But we just took what we—You know what I mean? Until that's why we started fighting for equal rights because there was such a great difference with salaries and things of that nature where we still were segregated as far as the bus station down there in Orangeburg. You had White and Colored, if that's what you're interested in. | 6:14 |
| Charles Houston | Right. That's what I'm interested in. | 6:34 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | White and Colored, every place of business and whatnot. We could go in the stores and whatnot, but for restrooms and places, if you needed to go to a bathroom, something like that, you didn't have any place to go. You'd have to find a place maybe where Colored people could go. You know that lasted for a long time. But everything was segregated. The schools were segregated. Now, they have taken in Whites and they mixing the colleges and all like that. But at the time, I basically attended all-Black schools. | 6:36 |
| Charles Houston | And about the same time that teachers began struggling for salary equalization in the '40s, there was in South Carolina also an effort to make it possible for Blacks to vote in the Democratic primary. The NAACP was becoming more active here in South Carolina. Do you remember those times? Were you at that time a member of any civil rights groups or any social clubs or organizations? | 7:16 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I was a member of— | 7:55 |
| Charles Houston | Or professional organizations? | 7:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, yes. I was a member of the South Carolina Education Association. | 8:00 |
| Charles Houston | In the '40s? | 8:06 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, see, that's the problem. I don't exactly remember dates. I don't know whether it was in the '40s or what year it was, whatever. But after the schools were integrated, then we joined. Well, I was a member of the—been a member of the NAACP. Yes. And I keep my membership in NAACP. | 8:11 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Was there an active chapter here in Orangeburg, say, at the time? | 8:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, I tell you, when they first organized, they would ask you questions. I have a cousin that, he didn't lose his job, but they wanted to get rid of him because he was very active. Some of our coworkers in Orangeburg, they would tell tales about whether or not they were members of the NAACP. But my cousin, Charles Thomas, who was a great civil rights leader, he told the truth about it. Quite a few of them lost jobs because they were members of the NAACP. Now, that's really true. | 8:47 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. For a short time there, the state passed a law making it illegal. | 9:22 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Yes. | 9:26 |
| Charles Houston | This was, I think, in the late '40s, making it illegal for public servants— | 9:27 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Public servants. | 9:31 |
| Charles Houston | —to belong to the NAACP. | 9:32 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. But prior to then, if you were a member, where you stood a chance of losing your job or what have you—Oh. | 9:34 |
| Charles Houston | Somebody else arriving. | 9:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That's the girl that's back there in the room. Her daughter coming to get her. | 9:44 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Do you remember during this period when, say, during the '40s, around the time of the war, do you remember any wartime situations like rationing, or? | 9:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, definitely. They used to take the teachers. We had to help register the people for ration. They giving out rice and sugar and different things like that. I even worked for programs like that. They would take a teacher from a job, you know what I mean? You'd be centralized someplace that was giving out food stamps. I mean, not food stamps. But rice and sugar and commodities and things like that. Yeah, I worked with that, too. | 10:09 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So you mean, they just come around and pull you out of school, and? | 10:40 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, they just would set aside a day that you had to do that. | 10:43 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. It's like court, almost like jury duties or something. | 10:47 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Yeah. | 10:54 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. What were racial relations like during the war? Did the war change the way White and Black people got along at all? Can you recall any difference at all? Was there a notable absence of men as a result of the war? Did you notice that there were— | 10:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I guess it was, probably. But it really didn't affect me too much, that part of it. I was married and had children. I really was not there looking for anybody or anything. But I mean, as a general thing, we did lose some people in the war. We did lose men and what have you in the war. | 11:22 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Did many Black men from this area join the military, serve in the military? | 11:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. We had quite a few. We have the VFW, Veteran of Foreign Wars organized over there on Amiti Street, and quite a few of them. | 11:57 |
| Charles Houston | Black VFW. | 12:06 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | The Black VF. They have a Black organization here. My friend around the corner now is the chief commander, whatever it is, of the VFW, Veteran of Foreign Wars, yes. We had a very dear friend of mine's husband got lost in action, Brotus Jameson— | 12:10 |
| Charles Houston | Brotus James— | 12:25 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes, Brotus Jameson, Sr. Never did find him. He got killed in action as a result of one of the wars. The post round there is named after his son, Brotus Jameson, Brotus Jameson VFW Post 8116. I think that's the name of it, the number. | 12:28 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 12:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [indistinct 00:12:54]. | 12:52 |
| Charles Houston | But was the son also lost in— | 12:55 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No. The son is active. He's friendly with my daughter. He's married and has children. Mm-hmm. But his father got killed in service. Of course, his father's wife, his mother is still living. His mother still lives. | 12:56 |
| Charles Houston | When these young men came back from the war, I mean, when young Black men came back in 1945 in their military uniforms, do you recall any incidents? Of course, there was segregation everywhere. But do you recall any incidents where there was discrimination against Black soldiers or were there attitudes had changed as a result of having been overseas and seen other places? You recall anything like that? | 13:18 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I think there was a little change in the attitude. I think there was. | 13:51 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. But nothing that involved you directly? | 13:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, nothing outstanding. No. No. | 14:03 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. You were teaching school this whole time, in fact, when the Clarendon County suits were being filed and when the Brown decision was handed down by the Supreme Court. | 14:04 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All that was in Clarendon County. Well, I was interested in it and whatnot, but I was not in one of those schools. I was not in one of the schools. The only school that I was in was the one that I told you in Foreston, South Carolina. | 14:22 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Okay. So there was really— | 14:37 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I do know of— | 14:42 |
| Charles Houston | It didn't affect anything here. | 14:43 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No. I do know that right down here in Elloree, South Carolina, which is in Orangeburg County, quite a few teachers lost their jobs, same thing I'm saying now, because they stood up for what they believed in. My son has a picture of that showing that where all these teachers in Elloree South Carolina lost their jobs because they belonged to the NAACP. | 14:44 |
| Charles Houston | Right. | 15:10 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Now, he has the years and everything of that. My son has that. | 15:11 |
| Charles Houston | I've seen the photographs from— | 15:15 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Uh-huh. | 15:17 |
| Charles Houston | By the mid-1950s, your family had moved out of your mom's house in 1952 into your own house. | 15:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 15:50 |
| Charles Houston | The neighborhood on Quick Street, was that an all-Black neighborhood? | 15:56 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That was a all-Black. | 16:03 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Was it— | 16:04 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | The neighborhood on Ashland Drive was all-Black. | 16:04 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Were these near the campus? Were these neighborhoods near the campus? | 16:07 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Right down the corner from South Carolina State College. | 16:10 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Was that considered to be part of the campus community? | 16:14 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | It was. Well, in a way, it was very near the college, yes. But where I lived, it was owned—Orangeburg is really designed at the beginning—It was designed that most of the Blacks really fell in a certain region or neighborhood. But now it's different. Now you can move anywhere that you want to because of integration. But years ago, it really was. It was segregated areas. You didn't find any Whites living in the Black neighborhood. You didn't find any Blacks living in the White neighborhood. | 16:17 |
| Charles Houston | In the White neighborhood. | 16:56 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, you didn't. | 16:57 |
| Charles Houston | So, what were the Black neighborhoods at that time? I mean, where were they? | 16:58 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Aw. Well, I'll tell you. New Brooklyn. | 17:01 |
| Charles Houston | New Brooklyn. | 17:02 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | New Brooklyn. | 17:03 |
| Charles Houston | Where was that? | 17:05 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That's left of Gulf Avenue, right down where a load of cars, all up on there. Used to call it The Hill, or whatever you call it. Gulf Avenue and Gulf Avenue Extension. All that was Black. | 17:06 |
| Charles Houston | Now that would be where the Jameson's Drugstore is? | 17:21 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Jameson Marion, Jameson Marion. Marion Jameson Drugstore. You know where that is? | 17:24 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah, I do. | 17:27 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. Well, that's New Brooklyn. That's called New Brooklyn at that time. All right? Uh-huh. | 17:28 |
| Charles Houston | And so— | 17:32 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Okay. On Quick Street— | 17:36 |
| Charles Houston | Quick Street. | 17:37 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —or Quick Town, they called it, every street out there has a name. But it got labeled Quick Town, but really it was Quick Street. And then they had Madison Street and Lloyd Street and other streets there. But they called it all— | 17:38 |
| Charles Houston | In Quick Town. | 17:51 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Quick Town. They called it Quick Town. | 17:52 |
| Charles Houston | Now, would that be over— | 17:55 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [crosstalk 00:17:57]. | 17:56 |
| Charles Houston | —by on the other side of the tracks from the college? | 17:58 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | You know where— | 18:00 |
| Charles Houston | Behind Trinity? | 18:01 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [crosstalk 00:18:02] do you know where State College is? Brooklyn Street that you come out the road, Brooklyn Street., you'll see two great big two-story houses. The Sultans live in it. You know where the Sultans live? | 18:02 |
| Charles Houston | I haven't met them yet. | 18:13 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. You haven't met— | 18:13 |
| Charles Houston | I'm going to meet them this week. | 18:14 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —met them. All right. We lived right around the corner from the Sultans. All of us grew up kind of together, like. | 18:15 |
| Charles Houston | And that was Quick Town. | 18:20 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That was Quick Town. They lived on Russell Street. But I lived on Quick Street, which was named after a Black man that lived on Russell Street: Reverend Quick. The street was named after a Black man. His name was Reverend Quick. Quick Street was named after him. | 18:21 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My father's house was the first house built on Quick Street. My daddy's house was the first house constructed on Quick Street. Then after that, all these other houses were built after my daddy built his house. | 18:42 |
| Charles Houston | So, both of these neighborhoods, then, are close to the university. | 18:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Close. | 19:01 |
| Charles Houston | Quick Town and New Brooklyn. | 19:01 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. They're close. | 19:05 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. Now, what— | 19:06 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | And then we had Windsor Street cross town, Lower Russell, Windsor, Maple, and all places like that down there. And we have, not a neighborhood, the Bellville Road, the lower end of the Bellville Road, practically Black neighbors, mostly neighbors, you know what I mean? I mean, like neighborhoods. | 19:06 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Called Bellville? | 19:26 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Bellville Road. I lived, when I was on Ashland Drive, that's right off of Bellville Road. | 19:26 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 19:34 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mm-hmm. | 19:34 |
| Charles Houston | Now— | 19:36 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That's not too far from the college. You could walk if you wanted, but not on the other end of Bellville. | 19:36 |
| Charles Houston | But were all of these neighborhoods, neighborhoods for professional and educated Blacks? | 19:41 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Anybody that had money and wanted to buy one, they'd buy it. But it just happened that Blacks dominated. The Blacks were there. I mean, you didn't find White people wanting to move. Then on the lower end of Bellville Road, Russell Street, Lower Russell, all on there was practically White. It was near the college. But when one Black person started buying and would move in, the Whites began the moving. They would leave. They wouldn't stay. | 19:47 |
| Charles Houston | And this is in the '40s and '50s? | 20:17 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, yep. Well, no, that was in my later years now, I guess. [indistinct 00:20:19] | 20:18 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. After integration, right? | 20:18 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. | 20:25 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And now that whole area is Black? | 20:27 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | The whole area is Black now because all the Whites move out. You find out Doc Dotan there, he's a White fellow. He's a retired doctor. He still has his home on there. A few Whites, but most of them, and you can tell they're dilapidated, you can tell Blacks live in them because they don't keep up their homes. The most of them don't keep their homes up. Most of them, just boarding, like students and whatnot. I think they could really do better. You don't have your tape on, do you? | 20:28 |
| Charles Houston | Oh, yeah. I do. | 20:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | (laughs) Oh, my. But that's just the way it is, the young people of today. They don't seem to take an interest in things like they did years ago. They just don't do it. | 20:57 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Where, during the '40s, even the '30s, did poor Blacks live? Because these were nice neighborhoods: New Brooklyn, Quick Town, Windsor Street, Bellville Road. I mean, those were all— | 21:07 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Treadwell Street was a very nice neighborhood. Lot of, I call them what you call them, kind of influential or kind of, once upon a time people say up there, up, or what have you, kind of— | 21:25 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Kind of the elite neighborhood. | 21:37 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Nice neighborhood. Some of the professors lived over there, the same James Pierce, as I told you; they have a beautiful home on Treadwell Street, the mother and dad's dead. But the Zimmermans, that's [crosstalk 00:21:48] | 21:38 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. I met the Zimmermans. They live over there. | 21:47 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [crosstalk 00:21:50] all right. Old Geraldyne. | 21:50 |
| Charles Houston | I met Geraldyne. | 21:51 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Geraldyne and her husband. But see, I'm about that long [indistinct 00:21:55] that age. That's when I—Yeah. We were good friends and everything. | 21:52 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Yeah. | 21:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [indistinct 00:22:00]. | 21:57 |
| Charles Houston | I talked with her the other day. | 21:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. But she lives on Treadwell. A lot of Blacks lived on Treadwell, and most of them owned their homes. But now, lot of those old people have gone in there and they rip the houses out. Even Treadwell has become infested now. We don't have really any, I'd say, nice neighborhood. I consider this a nice neighborhood. | 22:05 |
| Charles Houston | This is a very nice neighborhood. | 22:18 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Very quiet and everything. But we haven't had too much violence or anything. But we're not really on the map far as violence is concerned, and I can't understand it because we have so much migration from other parts of New York and all those big cities coming down here attending the colleges. I think that's really what's causing it. | 22:19 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I remember a time on Quick Street, we could leave, sleeping in the night, our windows up and the doors unlocked, but you can't do it now. There's a difference in what's growing this younger generation coming up now. They're trying to be more violent and I don't know why. | 22:43 |
| Charles Houston | What was the difference for the generation, say. Back when you were coming up? How were things different? I mean, you said you could leave the doors open. Why was that? What was it about people at that time that— | 23:02 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Maybe, I would say, maybe, that they didn't—Well, we had a few people maybe that were really concerned about conditions, but I guess maybe they were a little more complacent during those years than they are now. Maybe that was the reason for it. I don't know whether that's the reason. But I'm just saying they tried to work and make a decent living. We had some people that were very influential in the neighborhood and they did what they could to help others and what have you. We just didn't have all that carrying on that we have now. I don't know any other reason. | 23:18 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Who were the community leaders in those days? | 23:59 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh. Well, I would say that most of the leaders really rang out maybe from the churches, maybe. The church people of the community. I won't designate any particular one, but— | 24:07 |
| Charles Houston | What— | 24:26 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —from the different churches. | 24:26 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Was it the ministers, then, who were leaders? | 24:28 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. You could say ministers— | 24:34 |
| Charles Houston | And deacons? | 24:34 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —and maybe the deacons, the doctors, lawyers, people of that nature. And some laypeople, maybe. Laypeople. | 24:36 |
| Charles Houston | What church did your family go to? | 24:47 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My family attended regional. My mother and dad were members of Mount Pisgah Baptist Church on Green Street. | 24:49 |
| Charles Houston | Pisgah? | 24:58 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mount Pisgah. M-O-U-N-T P-I-S-G-A-H. Mount Pisgah Baptist Church. Reverend Everett is now the pastor. | 24:59 |
| Charles Houston | On Green Street? | 25:08 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | On Green Street. That's where my family really stem from. In later years, they had a split, and we ended up at New Mount Zion on Dutton Street. Okay? | 25:09 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. Can you tell me about the split? | 25:24 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, I was a little child then, very young. I don't really know what caused the split. I don't know that. | 25:26 |
| Charles Houston | But you ended up at Mount Zion? | 25:34 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | At New Mount Zion Baptist Church on Dutton Street. | 25:35 |
| Charles Houston | How is New Mount Zion on Dutton Street different from Mount Pisgah Baptist? | 25:43 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh. | 25:50 |
| Charles Houston | How would you characterize the difference between the two churches? | 25:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Not too much. I would say that Mount Pisgah, it was one of the oldest church in the city as far as age is concerned. Yes. New Mount Zion just sprang out from our members, from Mount Pisgah and also other churches in the city. | 25:53 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Do you know when the split took place? You said you were a little girl. | 26:11 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I don't remember. I was a little girl. I don't remember. | 26:15 |
| Charles Houston | So it was like 1910s? | 26:16 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Probably was. I don't remember exactly. But it was probably 19—Well, I was born in, what? I was born in 1910, you know. | 26:25 |
| Charles Houston | Yes. Right. | 26:34 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I said that. 1910. So, it probably was in the 10s. Yes. | 26:35 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And that's why I— | 26:38 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I was little. | 26:39 |
| Charles Houston | —was guessing it might have been in the 10s. | 26:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. In the 10s. Yes. | 26:39 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Well, it really is very nice of you to take this time to talk with me on your anniversary. | 26:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, I don't know if I've been of any help, but— | 26:56 |
| Charles Houston | Oh, you've been of great help. | 26:58 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Kind of— | 26:58 |
| Charles Houston | It's been very interesting. | 26:59 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —random, what I wanted to say. But see, they told me you were coming, but—I really have—We have really, I'd say, been here ever since we had from those times, but we didn't lose our bearing and whatnot. We just—You know what I mean? My mother was a very quiet lady. She believed in peace. Although, she had some brothers that probably wouldn't take what my mother went through with—You know what I'm talking about. You know what I mean? The male people in my family were more voiced than the ladies, I'll say, which maybe that's a natural thing [indistinct 00:27:49] like that. | 27:01 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | But my mother and my dad—My daddy had a terrible temper. I think that's where I got my temper from. But I have learned that you just can't lose your temper about everything. You've got to be kind of calm and take things as they come and do what you can and fight for your rights, but do it in a different kind of manner or whatever. I guess that's what we need to do. | 27:49 |
| Charles Houston | Right. What you're saying is, I mean, it sounds like you're suggesting that Black men generally had—I mean, the ones that you knew, certainly, and your mother's brothers— | 28:20 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My mother's brothers, they just believed in fighting for their rights. That's just all. Even in those times, and that's why so many of them, some of them got killed and lynched. | 28:28 |
| Charles Houston | And your father, you said, also had a— | 28:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes, my dad had an awful temper. | 28:48 |
| Charles Houston | So, did he get into arguments or altercations with Whites, or is that more— | 28:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, he didn't. Not necessarily. No, I don't think so. I think he— | 29:00 |
| Charles Houston | He just had a bad temper. | 29:00 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —just did—He only exhibited that terrible temper one time when I was—Well, I had to be about 10 or 11 years old. Man was living on the other end of the street on Quick Street. And my father came in, they was supposed to be good friends. He came in and got his shotgun and started on up. My mother had to talk to him to keep him—maybe you don't need to tape this. You turn this off. | 29:05 |
| Charles Houston | Well, okay. | 29:30 |
| Charles Houston | [INTERRUPTION 00:29:31]. | 29:30 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Uh-huh. | 29:30 |
| Charles Houston | Could you tell me who did the discipline? | 29:33 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My mother did the discipline. If my mother whipped us, my daddy would come back and pick us up and kiss us and hug us and give us a quarter or something to go to the store to get some candy. But my mother was firm. If she ever told you—The last whipping that I remember getting, my sister and I, they had the fair. It was segregated then. They had a fair here in Orangeburg, the Orangeburg County Fair. Friday was the day that they gave us. So my mother, at that time she was married to my step-daddy. They had been to the fair that day and took us with them. We weren't quite ready to come home, my sister and I. My sister, Jessie said, "Mama, may we stay a little longer?" She said, "Yes, but get home before dark." And she meant get home before dark. | 29:38 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My sister was, at that time, liking a little fella and they rode all around. I couldn't have a ride because it'd make my head swim. I was standing on the ground. I said, "All right." Every time I'd see Jessie, said, "All right, Jessie, let's go. Let's go. Mama's going to get us." She didn't pay—She stayed until—It was good and dark when we left the fairground. My mama had been home on Quick Street long enough to cook the supper or the dinner, what have you, for serving her meal at the table and didn't say a word when we walked in. My mother didn't say a word. But she had gone out to the tree and got the peach trees and had them trimmed down, had them on the bed. She got up from that table and took us into the bedroom and lashed us good. Said, "I told you to get home before dark." And she meant that. She whipped us good. | 30:33 |
| Charles Houston | How old were you? | 31:26 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | When we came back into the dining room, my step-daddy was—I mean—laughed. I said, "What are you grinning for? I got me a—" And I got another lick. But she did the chastising. You know what I mean? She did all that. | 31:27 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. And you said your mother had been home long enough to cook. Did she work? | 31:45 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh. No. I mean— | 31:49 |
| Charles Houston | She'd been— | 31:51 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —she'd been home long enough from the fairground— | 31:52 |
| Charles Houston | Oh, okay. | 31:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —to cook— | 31:55 |
| Charles Houston | To cook dinner. | 31:56 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Cook a meal. But my mother was a teacher. I told you, hadn't been—not anymore. But once you got married, or remarried, you lost your job. You didn't have a job. That was another thing about all the grade schools. But I don't think they have that rule now. That's what [indistinct 00:32:13] | 31:56 |
| Charles Houston | Right. There's a family biography form that I'd like to fill out with your help. I don't want to take too much of your time, but I really need your help with this. If I could just ask you some questions now, you may not be able to answer all of these. | 32:17 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Okay. | 32:29 |
| Charles Houston | Do you have a middle name? Oh, you did give me your middle name. | 32:32 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Lee. Ethel L. Williams. | 32:36 |
| Charles Houston | And Lee. | 32:36 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Lee. Ethel Lee Williams. | 32:39 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And your address here is— | 32:41 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | 1233 Lake Circle Drive. | 32:44 |
| Charles Houston | 1233 Lake Circle Drive. Okay. And is this Orangeburg? | 32:46 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Orangeburg, South Carolina 29115. | 32:52 |
| Charles Houston | 29115. Orangeburg. | 32:59 |
| Charles Houston | I have your place of birth was— | 33:06 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Was Quick Street, Orangeburg—No, I was born on Oak Street. I'm the only one that was born in the city. That's what I told my sisters and brothers. We later moved to Orangeburg when I was a baby. But I don't think you have—But that's all. I'd just say Quick Street. That's okay. | 33:08 |
| Charles Houston | This is going to be archived, as I indicated, along with tape recordings of other people speaking about the same period. How would you like your name listed? | 33:30 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Ethel Williams Williams. See, I was a Williams and married a Williams. | 33:40 |
| Charles Houston | Right. Okay. | 33:43 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Uh-huh. I got married in the '30s, so that would still be Ethel Williams Williams. Oh, my husband's name was Cecil Williams. What you think? Cecil L. Williams. Would I need it in my husband's name or my name? | 33:46 |
| Charles Houston | Oh, no, no, no. In your name is fine. | 33:57 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, well, all right. Ethel L. Williams. Ethel Williams Williams. | 33:58 |
| Charles Houston | And you're married. Your husband's name is Cecil L— | 34:06 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Cecil L. Williams. | 34:08 |
| Charles Houston | And is that senior? | 34:09 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Senior. Yeah. CJ's not a junior. He's Cecil J. | 34:10 |
| Charles Houston | That's right. | 34:14 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Named after my daddy and his daddy. Cecil L. Williams. | 34:14 |
| Charles Houston | And when was he born, your husband? | 34:21 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He was born December the 10th, 1908. He's two years older than I am. | 34:23 |
| Charles Houston | And he was born here in Orangeburg? | 34:31 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He was born in Orangeburg, too, yes. | 34:32 |
| Charles Houston | And his occupation was tailor. | 34:37 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Tailor. He was a tailor. | 34:39 |
| Charles Houston | And your mother's first, middle, and last name, and maiden name? | 34:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Lillian Estelle Evans. | 34:48 |
| Charles Houston | Evans. | 34:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Evans. E-V-A-N-S. E-V-A-N-S was a maiden name, and she married a Williams. | 34:55 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 35:01 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Williams. | 35:02 |
| Charles Houston | And do you remember her birthdate? | 35:06 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, Lord. I sure don't know it. | 35:11 |
| Charles Houston | What about the year? | 35:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Year? Oh, Lord. It had to be, what? It had to be into, what? 1880-something or something. I don't know my mother's. Oh, goodness. I don't even know how old my mother— | 35:13 |
| Charles Houston | Do you remember how old she was when she died? She died in 1952 because that's when you moved. | 35:37 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | 1952. 1952. | 35:42 |
| Charles Houston | Do you remember how old she was at death? | 35:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | She must have been 70-something when she died. | 35:57 |
| Charles Houston | So, 75, say, was she? | 36:02 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah, I'd say 75. | 36:02 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So, she was 75 when she died. That means she was born and around about 1877. Does that sound right? | 36:02 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, I think that would do. That sounds pretty good, just about. | 36:07 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And where was she born? | 36:22 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | She was born in Norway, South Carolina. | 36:37 |
| Charles Houston | What county is that? | 36:37 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | That's Orangeburg County. | 36:37 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And she was a teacher? | 36:37 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah, she was a teacher. | 36:37 |
| Charles Houston | And your father's first, middle, and last name? | 36:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | James Howard Williams. | 36:44 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 36:48 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Born in Barnwell County. | 36:50 |
| Charles Houston | Barnwell? | 36:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 36:54 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. What year? | 36:55 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Lord. There you go again. I don't know. | 36:57 |
| Charles Houston | Well now, he died in 1933, did you say? | 37:00 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I was just 12 years old when my daddy died. [indistinct 00:37:07] | 37:04 |
| Charles Houston | So, he was 1922. | 37:05 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, right. Okay. | 37:05 |
| Charles Houston | And how old was he when he died? | 37:13 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I don't even know that. It must have been, what? He probably was in his 70s, so I don't really know. I don't know. | 37:40 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And his occupation was farming? | 37:47 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No. No. | 37:49 |
| Charles Houston | No. | 37:49 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | My daddy was a contracting builder. | 37:50 |
| Charles Houston | Oh, that's right. Sorry. Right. That's right. Because he built all those houses on Quick Street. | 37:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | On Russell Street. Russell Street, near the college. Leading down to the college. The Brailswood home and all those. [indistinct 00:38:16] | 38:04 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Now, how many brothers and sisters—You had— | 38:16 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I had had two brothers and three sisters. It was six of us in all. | 38:20 |
| Charles Houston | Could you give me their names in order of birth? | 38:25 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh. I'm the oldest. Ethel Williams. Jessie. James. [indistinct 00:38:40]. Daisy. | 38:30 |
| Charles Houston | Daisy? | 38:51 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. And Lillian, and Andrew. | 38:54 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 38:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mm-hmm. Is that six [indistinct 00:38:56]? | 38:54 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. That's six. Do you remember their birth years? You were born in 1910. | 38:55 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | It was each one of us, about two years apart. | 39:02 |
| Charles Houston | So, Jessie was 1912? | 39:05 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 39:07 |
| Charles Houston | And James was 1914. | 39:08 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | '14. | 39:10 |
| Charles Houston | And Daisy was 1916. | 39:11 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 39:13 |
| Charles Houston | And Lillian was 1918. | 39:14 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Right. | 39:16 |
| Charles Houston | And Andrew must have been 1920. | 39:17 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Okay. | 39:19 |
| Charles Houston | And do you remember their death dates? Are they all— | 39:22 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Only two [indistinct 00:39:35]. Lillian. Let's see—I don't know when she died. Is there anyway I could get that information to you? | 39:42 |
| Charles Houston | Sure. Well, I might be able to get it—Yeah, I can get that later. | 39:43 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. Well, give me [indistinct 00:39:47] | 39:45 |
| Charles Houston | And I guess you were all born in Orangeburg? | 39:49 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All of us were born in Orangeburg. All of them were born on Quick Street except me. I was going on Oak Street. That's in the city, right in Orangeburg. All of them was [indistinct 00:40:01] Orangeburg County. | 39:51 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Now, your children, you had, let's see, you have two boys, three children. | 40:03 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Two boys and one girl. | 40:11 |
| Charles Houston | Right. So, a couple of adoptive— | 40:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [indistinct 00:40:16]. | 40:15 |
| Charles Houston | —children—Well, not adopted, really, but you raised. Now, your oldest son's name? | 40:15 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Is Alfred Leroy. Alfred Leroy Williams. | 40:19 |
| Charles Houston | And when was he born? 1930— | 40:27 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | He was born on February 20th, 19—What? February the 20th, 19—What? '30, what? [indistinct 00:40:39] | 40:29 |
| Charles Houston | '31 or '32. I can't remember. You graduated '31. Must have been '32 or '33. | 40:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I think, yeah. | 40:44 |
| Charles Houston | Let's see. Look back. | 40:48 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | CJ was was born November 26th. | 40:56 |
| Charles Houston | I have Alfred was born in 1933 or 1934. | 41:00 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. But okay. That's all right. | 41:04 |
| Charles Houston | Say 1933? | 41:05 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. That's good. And CJ was born November 26. And he—now [indistinct 00:41:21] | 41:09 |
| Charles Houston | He was born in— | 41:22 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Do you have a date for him? He was born November 26th, CJ was. Now, what year? | 41:23 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah. 1937. | 41:29 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. Okay. My daughter, Brenda, was born on June the 22nd. June the 22nd. It was 13 years between Al and CJ and Brenda. So you can figure that out. | 41:34 |
| Charles Houston | So, she was born 1950. | 41:45 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | All right. And she's like 40—Or she might be 40 going on to 44. Or she's 42. But that's all right. [indistinct 00:42:01] be like that. That's okay. It's June the 22nd. | 41:46 |
| Charles Houston | And they were all born here in Orangeburg? | 42:03 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Orangeburg. Mm-hmm. | 42:05 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 42:09 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | How was my pot? | 42:09 |
| Speaker 1 | Huh? | 42:12 |
| Speaker 2 | What's that? | 42:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | How's that chicken? | 42:12 |
| Speaker 1 | Oh. It was good. | 42:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | It ought to be. | 42:12 |
| Speaker 1 | [indistinct 00:42:18]. | 42:12 |
| Charles Houston | I just have a few more questions, and I'm getting close. | 42:19 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Okay. That's all right. | 42:22 |
| Charles Houston | Now, do you have grandchildren? Yes. Okay— | 42:24 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, I wish I did. | 42:28 |
| Charles Houston | You don't? | 42:30 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I don't have a grandchild. No. I wish I had one. | 42:30 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. I didn't know. I wouldn't need names, just numbers. But I— | 42:33 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | No, I don't have any. | 42:34 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Now, this asks for places where you've lived. I guess basically you've lived here and you've lived in Norway. | 42:39 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I've never lived in Norway. | 42:46 |
| Charles Houston | No, no— | 42:47 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Just temporarily. | 42:47 |
| Charles Houston | No, no. Okay. So, you really have only lived here. | 42:49 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | [indistinct 00:42:52] Orangeburg [indistinct 00:42:53] | 42:52 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 42:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | In the summertime, we used to go to Stanford, Connecticut, just the change of scenery, my husband and I. But that was in the late years. You don't particularly need to know that. | 42:55 |
| Charles Houston | So, you'd say 1910 to present for Orangeburg? | 43:05 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. | 43:07 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Now, the schools. You graduated from— | 43:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | South Carolina State College. | 43:14 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So, you graduated from there for high school? For your undergraduate? | 43:16 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Undergraduate and graduate. | 43:23 |
| Charles Houston | And for your master's degree. | 43:24 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Right. Uh-huh. Right. At State. | 43:26 |
| Charles Houston | And so— | 43:27 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I have attended other schools. During my teaching career, I went to University of Tennessee about two summers with that program, even when I was working at Allen. We went to University of Tennessee for a summer session. I don't remember years, whatever. | 43:34 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. So, you did your BA and your MA at South Carolina State? | 43:54 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. MS. | 43:57 |
| Charles Houston | Is it a BS and MS? | 44:00 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Oh, yeah. That's a science. | 44:02 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And what was the subject? | 44:07 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Bachelor of science. | 44:10 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. And the year was 1930. You graduated from college in 1931. | 44:11 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yeah. A bachelor of science in BS HE. | 44:16 |
| Charles Houston | 1931? | 44:19 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Mm-hmm. | 44:21 |
| Charles Houston | And what year was your— | 44:21 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Master's. | 44:25 |
| Charles Houston | —master's? | 44:25 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | 1950-something. | 44:25 |
| Charles Houston | Let's see. You may have already told me that. | 44:31 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | 50— | 44:31 |
| Charles Houston | Was it 19—I'm not sure where it is in here, but was it about the same time that you moved out of your mother's house, at the same time that your mother died? | 44:35 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I was on Ashland Drive when I received my master's degree. | 44:48 |
| Charles Houston | So, it was after 1952? | 44:50 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes, uh-huh. I was on Ashland Drive. | 44:55 |
| Charles Houston | So, was it like 1950— | 44:56 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Let see. I had been out teaching, then I went back to school in service. | 44:56 |
| Charles Houston | I have 1953 here. | 45:00 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Well, all right. That's it, then. | 45:02 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. You were in college four years; is that correct? | 45:08 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Right. | 45:11 |
| Charles Houston | So, that means you graduated from high school in 1927? | 45:11 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | '27. | 45:13 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 45:13 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | College, '31. | 45:13 |
| Charles Houston | And then your master's in 1953? | 45:19 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Right. | 45:25 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. It says, "List your most important previous jobs." Your most important previous jobs would've been at Allen University. | 45:25 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Allen University and Voorhees College, and I also worked at Claflin College in the Upward Bound program. | 45:34 |
| Charles Houston | Well, in terms of most, would you include all of those as most significant? | 45:42 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Ah. Well, Voorhees College and Allen University. | 45:48 |
| Charles Houston | Those are separate. | 45:52 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. Yes. | 45:52 |
| Charles Houston | They were at different times? Allen University. Voorhees College? | 45:53 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. I was in the field of reading. I taught reading at both schools. | 45:59 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Then your public school career, you were a— | 46:04 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Language arts teacher. | 46:10 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. But which school? | 46:12 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | I was at St. John—. | 46:15 |
| Charles Houston | St. John. | 46:19 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | —in Cameron. Yes. | 46:19 |
| Charles Houston | St. John? | 46:19 |
| Ethel Lee Williams | Yes. | 46:19 |
| Charles Houston | In— | 46:19 |
Item Info
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