Lillie Kirkon interview recording, 1995 August 18

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Laurie Green	[indistinct 00:00:01] Kirkland, on August 18th, 1995 in Memphis. I'd like to start with some of your childhood memories of growing up in Louisiana. Can you say the—	0:01
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	My family's very large, eight children, four boys and four girls. We had even number of each sex in the home, and my mother and father were not born down there. They were born in New Orleans, Louisiana. But they came down to New Orleans when they got married because they had a brother that lived there. And staying in New Orleans once in awhile, they moved to the west side. That's where we grew up, on the west side of New Orleans. But the schools, there were schools but not in that vicinity of Harvey. Children had to go to the next little town, just like going from here to Whitehaven or something like that, a little suburb. Because that's where the parish seat was in Gretna, Louisiana, G-R-E-T-N-A. Gretna, Louisiana, and that's where the parish seat was.	0:20
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	So the older ones, I was next to the last of the eight children. Of course, before it came to my time, I went to kindergarten [indistinct 00:01:48] because a lady in the neighborhood had kindergarten, my brother took me, [indistinct 00:01:53] and then I was next, and the baby, she was too young. So we would go, this lady would teach her everyday. Yeah. Way back then. When I tell people I went to kindergarten, a kindergarten? I say, "Yes." So when I went there for my schooling, we could read, we could write. We could do a little math, because we had time to do it and my mother would take time to sit down because she didn't work, my dad worked, and would help us with our work.	1:28
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	So therefore, it wasn't hard when we started school. So what my father did, he went to the board of education which was in Gretna, Louisiana, because that was the parish seat where everything was [indistinct 00:02:58] parish. And he said he needed the school for his trade. In a little town called Harvey, Louisiana.	2:33
Laurie Green	Harvey is the town you grew up in?	3:07
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes. It needed a school for his children. And what could they do to help him with that? Because he wanted them to go to school right there, not to go so far, try to get to school, things like that. So they got together with the church, the church where I was baptized, christening at that time, and we all were members of that little baptist church, Evening Star. It's still there.	3:09
Laurie Green	Evening Star?	3:41
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Evening Star Baptist Church. The people on the board of education got with the church, the minister and the trustee and asked, could they use the church to start a school? And they consented. They had to have some sort of rules and regulations, you clean it up everyday before you leave, things like that. So we did all of that and they started the school. And when I went to school, it was in the first grade but I could read as a 1st grader, because I don't ever remember not knowing how to read. I really can't recall when I couldn't read, because we took the paper. There was a Black paper back then, my dad took to the mayor [indistinct 00:04:34] Pittsburgh Courier.	3:42
Laurie Green	He got the Pittsburgh Courier?	4:34
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. Yeah. Way back, yeah. And we would read that and see what people were doing in Chicago and the north and the west, things like that. And things were kind of different to what we were doing, and some of our relatives would come to visit with us, and they said that they had White teachers. What? That was fascinating for us to listen and have them talking like that [indistinct 00:05:12]. The teachers that we had, they were certified teachers from the Orleans parish and we didn't have any problems with our curriculum. Whatever we were doing, whatever we needed, the board provided, whatever the board would provide but there was things that we had to purchase. Well, we had to purchase [indistinct 00:05:41] books. We had to purchase our own books. And way back then, most schools had to purchase their own books at that time. So we purchased our own books.	4:36
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And what my parents did to cover those books, so that we could keep them clean and keep them together, because the next person coming after us in the family, or even some of the neighbors, they could borrow those same books. So we learned quite a bit from our parents, how to take care of things, because this is what you need so you take care of what you need, and this is what you'll have to use so you take care of it. And I can remember them going to the fabric store. What do they call it? Our fabric store was right there, but they would buy this material and she would cover these books with material, all kind of pretty material and make covers on these books. And we were always told to wash your hands before using your books, so that [indistinct 00:06:58]. It's not nothing new to me, anybody children need to do these kind of things, as I grew up. Because I was taught that in my home. Because we had rules and regulations.	5:47
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	We ate together. We didn't have a sandwich and run out. When it was mealtime, breakfast, my dad would be gone early in the morning for breakfast, but my mother fixed breakfast for us because we had to go to school. Then she would fix our lunch because there wasn't a cafeteria way back in that time at the school. So we had [indistinct 00:07:42] lunch and when it was time for lunch, we all sat down and ate lunch at the table that the teacher designated for us, of our grade levels. It was primer at that time. Things didn't start with 1st grade. They started with the primer. That's just like pre-1st now.	7:12
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And they went through the 7th grade, and at the end of the 7th grade, they had this graduation exercise, and we went to New Orleans school then. That was school [indistinct 00:08:25] because that was a Rosenwald school at that time. Yes. They put up the money for the Rosenwald Foundation.	8:06
Laurie Green	This was, what grade did you start there?	8:35
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	At the Rosenwald school, they went all the way but I never did go there for that. [indistinct 00:08:43]. I went to the schools in Orleans parish. I crossed the river every morning.	8:37
Laurie Green	Okay. So the Rosenwald school was in New Orleans?	8:52
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No, no, no. It was on the west side, but it was not in Harvey. It was in another little town.	8:55
Laurie Green	Okay.	9:00
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And that little town, it got its name because it was west [indistinct 00:09:12] West Wego. W-E-S-T W-E-G-O, and that's the name of the little—and it still has that name.	9:08
Laurie Green	But you went to—	9:21
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	The schools in New Orleans.	9:22
Laurie Green	—the school in New Orleans. And that was Woodbury—	9:22
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	8th grade.	9:28
Laurie Green	Okay.	9:28
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And then on from 8th to—11th grade was the highest grade they had for completion of high school. So I graduated after 11th grade. [indistinct 00:09:51] graduation, had the prom, all of that. And also, during those times, even though in the elementary school, we had concerts, what have you, things like that. We had entertainment things that they knew children needed. So we learned about music, a lot of music because New Orleans was very musical. A lot of music.	9:35
Laurie Green	Right.	10:28
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. When I was in 8th grade, we had music appreciation. And what fascinated me there, which we had one at home, this Victrola, a tall, old style thing. [indistinct 00:10:42] seen anything look like that. And they'd roll it in when it was time for music, and that was from 8th grade on. They would play the classics, and tell us the name of these classics. There'd be about two or three weeks of sessions. And then [indistinct 00:11:05] that didn't say anything, just played the music. You had to name the composer and the name of the piece of music. And you had to listen, and listen well, in order to grasp all of that. And that's why I love classical music today. I love it. The love the jazz too because I lived with that too.	10:28
Laurie Green	I was going to ask if you if they ever played any jazz music for you?	11:31
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. [indistinct 00:11:37].	11:35
Laurie Green	Would they play people like Bessie Smith?	11:39
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Hm?	11:41
Laurie Green	Were they playing people like Bessie Smith or Ma Rainey?	11:41
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No. They played most of the classics, but we had a Victrola at home, that my dad bought at the record store. Whatever he saw that he thought that his children should have, if he could afford it, he purchased it.	11:46
Laurie Green	Now what did your father do? What kind of work did he do?	12:09
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	He worked with the lumber company.	12:13
Laurie Green	And what was his job there?	12:21
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	[indistinct 00:12:26] and stacking the lumber, to be shipped out to different builders coming by and load their wagon with the lumber that they had purchased [indistinct 00:12:47]. It's quite a lot of [indistinct 00:12:47]. But my mother never did work. She was always the housewife, would prepare meals, take care of our clothing because she sewed our clothes. She made dresses. Sometimes we'd come home from school, we'd have a new dress already made and we'd be so happy, and things like that.	12:25
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Then from then on, the elder ones, they got married and they started their own families. Well, most of us went to college [indistinct 00:13:28] to do that because he wanted us to have a better life. [indistinct 00:13:37] so we could make our living, and the way we would like it to be, and he would want it to be for us, if there's a possibility of that. There was two teachers in the family, and one secretary. My eldest brother worked with—he was the head of maintenance of one of the housing projects in New Orleans. And my eldest sister, she was—well, she worked with costumes for the carnival because she did it from the queen and king from here, because they went down and had their costumes made where she worked and she made [indistinct 00:14:29].	13:10
Laurie Green	This was the cotton [indistinct 00:14:29].	14:28
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No, no, no.	14:29
Laurie Green	Cotton [indistinct 00:14:32].	14:29
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	This was cotton [indistinct 00:14:36]. In fact, these were White people that went down there to do that. Yeah. [indistinct 00:14:48] Mardi Gras. That was a fabulous thing, and the Blacks had their place, and the Whites had their place. And they were beautifully costumed because they knew how to build these floats and costumes, things like that. But we were not a part of the [indistinct 00:15:16] had all of these different grades and everything. But then the Black [indistinct 00:15:22] called the Zulu parade.	14:34
Laurie Green	The Zulu parade?	15:22
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Zulu, yeah. [indistinct 00:15:27].	15:24
Laurie Green	And did they take place at the same time?	15:27
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And they had the balls and things. We had the balls just like the White families. We had [indistinct 00:15:36] balls, invitations, beautifully dressed women.	15:31
Laurie Green	Did they take place at the same time as Mardi Gras, or was it a different time of—	15:41
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No, no, no. It was all at the same time. It always started right after the first of the year, they start having the balls. The balls, debutante and our balls [indistinct 00:16:10]. You didn't pay to go to get in these kind of things. [indistinct 00:16:13] it was a social thing, and the clubs [indistinct 00:16:19] because they paid dues [indistinct 00:16:25] a wonderful thing. Everybody got [indistinct 00:16:32] provided you had an invitation.	15:45
Laurie Green	And what did you have to do to get an invitation?	16:38
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	One of your friends. There were so many clubs. So many clubs. And so many debutantes [indistinct 00:16:52] society, just like the Whites.	16:40
Laurie Green	Now, were you presented to society?	16:55
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No, no.	16:57
Laurie Green	And why was that?	16:58
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	[indistinct 00:17:07] and my dad, his mother, they were not with that type of social strata—	17:07
Laurie Green	So it was more the wealthier people?	17:16
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes. Yeah, it was that strata. And you had to have money, but they had money for what? Because it's necessary for us to do the things that he wanted us to do, so we could do those kind of things when we were grown.	17:18
Laurie Green	Right. Now did you ever go to any of these balls?	17:40
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes.	17:42
Laurie Green	So were you part of social clubs?	17:45
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes. Yeah. The man I married was one of those balls and everything [indistinct 00:17:57]. I got married and went to the balls [indistinct 00:18:04]. His club had the balls—	17:48
Laurie Green	What club was that?	18:08
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	[indistinct 00:18:11]. The Macados.	18:10
Laurie Green	The Macados?	18:10
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. And they would have a beautiful ball. So I have been in many activities since I've been here because it was always a time when I couldn't. I was busy. I couldn't go. We'd get invitations and things like that. I would get the papers and all of what was going on, because I get that weekly paper from way back, and I know what Black people are doing, and things like that. So that's why I see what they're doing there, and what we're doing here. I'd see how we equate these things, who's making the most progress.	18:14
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	But from living in there, we had access to some things, and the parks were just like they were when I came to Memphis. We had a certain day to go to the zoo. Just like when I came here, they had a certain day for Blacks to go to the zoo here. So that wasn't new to me. So we had those days. But we did have a lot of [indistinct 00:19:43] in the public schools, because I was able to visit a battleship that had docked at [indistinct 00:19:55] and I was in the 8th grade—	19:04
Laurie Green	Which grade?	19:57
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	High school.	19:57
Laurie Green	8th grade?	19:57
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Battleship, yeah. I said I'd never forget that. I was able to see pictures of battleships but I had never been on one. So that was part of the curriculum. So the Black schools had a time to go, to visit the battleship. And when [indistinct 00:20:23] people would come to town, they would come to our school because I was able to secure George Washington Carver's autograph because he came from our school, and I was able to learn all about the peanut, things like that. [indistinct 00:20:44].	20:06
Laurie Green	Do you remember that?	20:44
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. Yes, I do.	20:45
Laurie Green	Describe it. Tell me about it.	20:46
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes. We had all of these things to show, that were derived from the peanut, things like that, which was very amazing. So we [indistinct 00:21:01]. And to meet him, we had heard of him. And to meet him personally, yeah. So that was quite an experience to meet him. So we had—	20:48
Laurie Green	Were there any other famous people that came to your school that you remember?	21:19
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	I'm trying to think now. I know some of the Black artists would come and they would come through the school. [indistinct 00:21:36]. Yeah. And they would visit that high school, because that was the high school, McDonough number 35.	21:25
Laurie Green	McDonough? Can you spell that for me?	21:48
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	M-C-D-O-N-O-U-G-H.	21:51
Laurie Green	Number 35.	21:54
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Number 35. And that was the high school in Orleans parish, for us, Blacks. McDonough number 35. They had private schools. They had [indistinct 00:22:13] private schools. They had [indistinct 00:22:24] were endowed by John Mcdonough.	22:00
Laurie Green	I'm just curious whether you have any recollection whether parents, local people, got involved with creating new schools because you mentioned your father going to the board of education to try to get you to be able to go to school in, it was Gretna that you went to school in?	22:35
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No. They [indistinct 00:22:58].	22:56
Laurie Green	And I'm wondering if you have any recollections of other ways the parents got involved with helping to build or establish other schools for Black children?	23:00
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes, they did because in Gretna, they had to go down to another little place called McDonough [indistinct 00:23:22] schools. But they finally got a school in Gretna [indistinct 00:23:28].	23:10
Laurie Green	A high school?	23:27
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	That's right. [indistinct 00:23:32]. They secured a building at Harvey, in later years, and there was a school there in Harvey. [indistinct 00:23:43].	23:30
Laurie Green	A high school or an elementary school?	23:39
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Before they built the school now, after using the church. [indistinct 00:23:48] at the time. But I didn't [indistinct 00:23:51] attend that elementary school, because that building wasn't be used at that particular time. It was later that they did this. And so—	23:44
Laurie Green	And were Black parents involved with pushing to get that school built?	24:03
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes, they were. And the parent organization was very much a part of their children's education, because they wanted this for their children. So they were interested in the meetings. When the teachers would call the PTA meetings, the parents really [indistinct 00:24:39] and they would go. They would be there. And whatever they could do to help, because I can remember them sewing costumes for the concerts, for the clothes in school. Because most parents at that time could sew, because they learned to sew from their grandmothers, because they needed to learn to sew, to make their children's clothing. Because it was much cheaper to make them than to try to purchase them.	24:10
Laurie Green	Did parents contribute financially to getting the building in Harvey?	25:14
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No. They just had moral support, because money was scarce. It was moral support. That means a lot, when you [indistinct 00:25:27] I would like to have for my children. Can you help me to do it? So that's the way that was. We just had a wonderful time there. So as the town began to grow up and expand [indistinct 00:26:02] they built the school. They built the school in Harvey, and they had expanded. And now, they have a high school, the biggest high school in Jefferson parish. It's right in Harvey. When I would go home to visit, I'd stand on the front porch and look at them playing football and listen to that scoreboard at night when I used to go down to [indistinct 00:26:34]. My nephew [indistinct 00:26:41] this school. They're one of the first.	25:21
Laurie Green	Did you have other memories of particular stories that you remember of experiences with Jim Crow segregation from your childhood?	26:52
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	The only thing I can remember is that, if we went to places and there was a sign there, that's why we learned to read so early, that you sit behind, because that was on the buses, the streetcars at that time. They had a little board, two little holes in it, [indistinct 00:27:38] back of the seat, and they said for Whites only. The Whites would sit there. And colored only, the colored would sit behind it. So growing up, that's all we knew. So you knew where you were supposed to sit. And when you went to get a drink of water, you learned that word that was up there, saying colored. So that's where you got your water.	27:09
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	So these are things that I experienced, because I didn't go to school with Whites. Not at that time. And I didn't have White teachers. They were all Black. And I wouldn't give anything for them because they were very scholarly people. They were dedicated people. They were interested in us learning, and our parents were the same way. They were interested in us learning because they knew later on, somewhere, somehow things might change and we wouldn't be so far behind in anything. So they had the Black colleges. New Orleans always had Black colleges.	28:03
Laurie Green	And where did you go to college?	29:05
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	I went to a Black college. It was New Orleans University, by the Methodists. New Orleans University, by the Methodists.	29:06
Laurie Green	New Orleans University.	29:13
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah, university.	29:22
Laurie Green	And it was right [indistinct 00:29:26].	29:25
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah, by the Methodist. So that's my first experience with White teachers.	29:27
Laurie Green	Really?	29:33
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	White instructors. Yes. Because the president was White. So that was my first experience going to—	29:33
Laurie Green	And what was that like for the first time?	29:44
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	It was kind of hard, because the principals had been Black at the public schools, so [all in all, it was a wonderful college. Yeah. Huh?	29:47
Laurie Green	Did they treat the students with respect?	30:03
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes. Yes, they did. It was very nice. And where this was located, it was in the heart of White people that had a lot of money. Saint John Avenue, that's where this college was. They had a reunion there [indistinct 00:30:32] I got it last week. [indistinct 00:30:36]. The college had gone because they merged two colleges. They had a college called Spring University and then New Orleans University. They merged and formed Dillard University. [indistinct 00:30:53]. That meant the only thing that was left on Saint John Avenue was the grade school Gilbert Academy, and so they had a big celebration a couple weeks ago. And my relatives sent me something because some of them went to Gilbert Academy [indistinct 00:31:14]. Now they got [indistinct 00:31:17] and things like that. So they had a wonderful time. So there's nothing there anymore. They have a marker. She sent me a picture of the marker they had in place.	30:06
Laurie Green	Now when or why did you move to Memphis?	31:39
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	I didn't have an idea I was going to be coming to Memphis. When we set the wedding and everything, and got the dress and the bridesmaids, my husband was working with a cotton farm in New Orleans, and the head of the cotton farm wanted to set up a business in Memphis with his son. So that meant he wanted to bring his son to Memphis, and he wanted to bring my husband, Harold, with him.	31:45
Laurie Green	Harold?	32:21
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. But I didn't know that until we [indistinct 00:32:27] to get married. And all of the sudden, [indistinct 00:32:36] said "we're going to have to leave town." I said, "No. Ain't no way." [indistinct 00:32:42] my dad said, "You want to take my daughter? She ain't been anywhere before." So after the wedding and everything, we stayed together for three weeks in New Orleans, and he and the person his father worked with, they came to Memphis and he was here a month and he said he couldn't stand it any longer if I didn't come. So I was coming [indistinct 00:33:15] but I had to wait until he found a place for me and things like that. So all the furniture, packed and got ready to leave. We had the furniture in storage, and so the storage people, they dropped the furniture [indistinct 00:33:39] found us a place to live.	32:22
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	So that's how we got to Memphis, Tennessee. I didn't know anything about Memphis. I met some very nice people, because my dad and my mom, [indistinct 00:34:00] in church, school and family. So we were looking for people of that caliber, and so we met the people down on Front Street where the cotton people worked, and I met some people through the neighborhood, we were neighbors, and I visited with them, to their churches. [indistinct 00:34:28] they had the high school that was not too far from here [indistinct 00:34:35] and during football season, they would have a parade. And I would go walk up there and look at the parade, which was very colorful. [indistinct 00:34:54].	33:39
Laurie Green	I'm sorry. What neighborhood did you move to when you came here?	34:53
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	What [indistinct 00:34:58].	34:55
Laurie Green	What neighborhood did you move to when you moved here? Did you move to this neighborhood?	34:58
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No. Not this neighborhood. I was in another neighborhood, where he found a place to stay there for awhile.	35:02
Laurie Green	Where was that?	35:09
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	We didn't move here. It was in South Memphis, south of here. It was south of here. But all of the people that I really got connected with were the people when I moved in this area. I went to that church. When they would have their [indistinct 00:35:38] club meetings, they would invite us. They mostly delayed the meetings anyway, and I was going with them [indistinct 00:35:48] meeting, and then we decided on a church home. Because I was a Baptist, he was a Methodist.	35:09
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Therefore, we visited both denominational churches. So we decided we'd have to select one if we wanted to raise our daughter in a faith that we would both be comfortable with and we would both enjoy. And I liked this Methodist church quite a lot, because the people I met, they were so friendly and I liked being around them, and our daughter [indistinct 00:36:38]. Well, the first person I met [indistinct 00:36:44] at this church was, and I went to church with him first. [indistinct 00:36:47] you did go that Sunday. [indistinct 00:36:48] because he was a Methodist but this is a different Methodist. It was CME, Christian Episcopal.	36:01
Laurie Green	What was the name of the church that you chose?	37:05
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	His church. The church now?	37:08
Laurie Green	Yeah.	37:09
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	[indistinct 00:37:11] chapel. CME church. Christian Methodist Episcopal. And his was just Methodist. And now it's United Methodist after all they changed to integrate it. [indistinct 00:37:31] it's a United Methodist now but [indistinct 00:37:34] we never did join that part. But that was his faith before we married, because I married Baptist. I married my own church. So quite naturally, the bride would like to get married in her own church, in her own faith. So I married in the church.	37:10
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And the same church that I was christened as a baby, same church I married in. And my family, mother and them, stayed in their church, so they're both passed. [indistinct 00:38:13] so whenever I go down to Harvey, I go mostly to New Orleans now because [indistinct 00:38:20] I don't have sisters or brothers or anything like that there now. I have nephews, nieces, and a few cousins, and most of them are in New Orleans too. But this one I told you was assistant principal of that high school, [indistinct 00:38:35] on the west side. But the other nephews I have, they live on the east side of New Orleans.	37:56
Laurie Green	Now, what were some of your other impressions of Memphis when you moved here?	38:43
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Well, it was kind of different to what I was accustomed to. Because I missed a lot of social activities, because I wasn't a part of it here because I was new. [indistinct 00:39:11]. Yeah, missed that. And socializing with my schoolmates. I missed a lot of [indistinct 00:39:28] that were my age. I had a cousin, she would come and spend weekends with us all the time. She got to be a teacher too, and she's retired now. She was a very, very studious person.	38:49
Laurie Green	When you moved here, did you start teaching in the public schools?	39:54
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No. No. I didn't teach then, when I first came here. I didn't do anything when I first came here. Excuse me. [INTERRUPTION 00:40:09]	39:58
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	[indistinct 00:40:11] it was that way because I met with the same signs.	40:09
Laurie Green	Same signs of segregation?	40:19
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Of segregation, yeah. So it wasn't any different. As I told you at the beginning, I found the zoo with the one day, as I had left New Orleans with the zoo being the one day. So that was not new. Right. It didn't stop us from going [indistinct 00:40:44] to see the animals. Our parents wanted us to do that and we did that, even if it was one day. But on the other hand, if you had progressive parents, you had books in the home, and you got coloring books that had the jungle animals in them, things like that, which I knew we had. So it was just like going to the zoo. We had seen them and we learned to differentiate the different noises that these animals made. But if you didn't go, their parents didn't have time because a lot of times that particular day, they might be working and they couldn't go. That's the way that was.	40:20
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	It was just about the same in the stores, some stores you couldn't try on clothing. I had left that. It was still, I found it here. [indistinct 00:41:59] some things are better. They're better all the time, and just the location of the city was different, and you saw different other aspects. The street that we frequented, [indistinct 00:42:20] street in New Orleans, and now everybody frequents the French Quarter, everybody now. But at that time [indistinct 00:42:30] street and Beale Street. So I would talk to my parents, I'd say, "I saw the street." It's similar to [indistinct 00:42:41] street in New Orleans. [indistinct 00:42:48] there were Black denizens on these particular streets in both cities, because you had place for offices for doctors, dentists, restaurants, little nightclubs. Those things were similar, I mean being all Black. They were similar to what I had left. Because I lived in New Orleans before I came to Memphis. When we got married, we lived in New Orleans.	41:46
Laurie Green	You did?	43:27
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes. But it was just like living anywhere. [indistinct 00:43:35] everyday. I went to school everyday. Took the ferry everyday. And one thing about that [indistinct 00:43:45] to cross over. The people that owned—this whole company that owned the ferry, school children didn't have to pay to cross the ferry. And there were White children going over, and there were Black children going over, to schools, going to your respective school. They were going to their White school. We were going to our Black school. Yeah. But we didn't have to pay a fee. Just like any other person would go over, they had to pay. So we didn't have to pay.	43:32
Laurie Green	Now—	44:22
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	You better have those books in your arm, because they knew who was going to school because if you went everyday, they knew you were a school person. And they knew just about what school you were attending. So it was, all in all, it wasn't that far. You might have to get up and go earlier in order to get to the ferry and get the ferry in plenty of time, so when you'd cross over, you would get your transportation at a particular time so you could get to your school on time. So it took a little time in the morning but it was fun. We enjoyed it, and we learned a lot about the river too.	44:27
Laurie Green	You what?	45:11
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	We learned a lot about the river, going across, [indistinct 00:45:19] because you'd see all the foreign ships, cargo ships and foreign people on the walks and all like that. While the ferry is docked waiting to be loaded with the passengers and the cars, we could see them loading and unloading the cargo of ships. When we left to come back home that evening, a particular name was on the ship, and when [indistinct 00:45:53] the next morning, that one would be gone and we'd see another name and we could know that because we were very observant. Even though we were doing this going back and forth, we were very observant on what we saw. So that was educational [indistinct 00:46:14].	45:12

Lillie Garrison Kirkon	—and also education, because you could see the different nationalities. You could look at them and see, well they don't look like the people here. They're New Orleanian, they're [indistinct 00:00:14]. You can see the difference in texture, skin, the color and things like that. I don't know. Then you look at the names of the children, what—	0:01
Laurie Green	Did you get involved with any kind of organizations when you moved to Memphis? I know that now you're very involved in the community. Did you get involved with the community back in the 1940s and '50s, when you first were—the first 20 years that you lived here?	0:31
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah, in the '50s I did, because we had a neighborhood organization and I was very much active in that. And the people that lived in this neighborhood, they were very active people. We had, off the record, they were friendly. And most of us were working at that time, and we would have our meeting from house to house, so the hostess would have to prepare a little repast for supper when we got home so we had supper. And we did things with resource people just as we're doing with this particular organization as of today. Because we went to the city for certain things, because we had stop signs put up and other things. We talked about the lighting system and things like that. And it was a beautiful organization.	0:44
Laurie Green	What was the name of it?	1:54
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Tate Avenue Community Club. Which has just dissolved, it's no more. I was talking with a lady the other night and she said, "You know, it ain't but three of us left." I said, "Don't start counting."	2:01
Laurie Green	How did you get involved with that?	2:20
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Well, this particular lady thought that it would be nice if we would form some sort of club, because since she came from another neighborhood and they had one. And she thought it would be nice if we would form one in this neighborhood, so we elected her as our president.	2:24
Laurie Green	And what was her name?	2:45
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Lena Letcher, L-E-T-C-H-E-R. And she was our president. Don't ask me who was the vice president, but I was the secretary, I know.	2:48
Laurie Green	Oh, you were the secretary?	2:59
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. And we had a nice group of women. And most of the women were working, because at that particular time, most women did work to help to support their families because perhaps maybe the income coming in wasn't very sufficient and they worked. But all in all, all of the children went to school. That's what I was telling this young lady, that my daughter went to school in California for a while, in Los Angeles because my sister was there that was the teacher. When she left Jefferson Parish as a teacher, she went to Los Angeles and she started working in Los Angeles as a teacher. And that's where she passed, she passed there.	3:11
Laurie Green	You were saying all the children went to school here? All of the children—you started to say all the children went to school. At which school?	4:03
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	At home, you talking about?	4:13
Laurie Green	No, here. Which school did—	4:14
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Well see, I—	4:15
Laurie Green	the kids here go to?	4:15
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Oh, see, I didn't have but one—I don't have but one daughter.	4:19
Laurie Green	Oh.	4:19
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	That's all I have, is one daughter. She went to Los Angeles, because I was ill.	4:20
Laurie Green	Oh, I see.	4:26
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	I was ill and my sister came, and she said, "Well I'll help you a couple years, go to school." She didn't lose any of her credits or anything of the kind. She loved it. And then when she went off to school, then she didn't go off until she was in college. She went down to New Orleans, of course. She went to Dillard University.	4:31
Laurie Green	Now did the block club that you were—the neighborhood club that you were part of, did you ever get involved with registering people to vote or—	5:03
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes, we talked about that.	5:09
Laurie Green	—politics?	5:10
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes, we did. We would talk about that—	5:11
Laurie Green	Can you tell me about that?	5:14
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	—in the meeting and asked the neighbors that were not a part of this organization to go and register to vote. So that was involvement, us doing that. Because, yeah, we were very much a part of that type of activity. And telling them how important it is to register, get your registration card so you can vote. So we did that. Oh, yeah, that was part of our agenda and most of our meetings. And when they would have any kind of rally, and they knew a candidate was coming to a certain place, would notify us and we would try to go see what their platform was and things like that. We really wanted them to do their voting and we were successful. A lot didn't join the organization, but they'll do that part of the civic responsibility and activity, which was very essential and still is.	5:15
Laurie Green	What year did you get this group started? Do you remember? You said it was the 1950s.	6:49
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. I mean around about '55 or '56.	7:03
Laurie Green	Wow. So this was after [indistinct 00:07:06] passed away?	7:04
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah, because that's another person I carried on when I got here.	7:15
Laurie Green	I'm sure you did. Were you able to—you said that when candidates—well first of all, let me ask you this question. Had you been voting all along? Had you voted before? Did you vote in New Orleans and had you voted in Memphis before this?	7:30
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No, I hadn't voted in New Orleans. No, I hadn't.	7:44
Laurie Green	Oh.	7:51
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	I didn't. You didn't do that until 19. Because I was quite young then and, so I didn't. But I registered when I got here.	7:52
Laurie Green	Okay.	8:04
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	When it was almost time for us to do that, I did.	8:05
Laurie Green	Was it right after you moved here that you registered or was it later on?	8:11
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	It was a little later on. Wasn't when I got here, it was a little later on. Listening to the politicians on the radio and television, things like that. And then we talked about it in this club how essential these things were, because our president was very much in accord with something like that because she was a member, she and her daughter both, which she was another personable person, the daughter she had. And they had this, she would call it, "Democratic Club", they had a club.	8:14
Laurie Green	Oh, the Shelby County Democratic Club?	8:55
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. I know somebody told you about that one, I imagine. Maxine might've told you about that. Well I didn't join it, but my important thing that I wanted to do with my life was to register so I could vote.	8:58
Laurie Green	So you registered—	9:21
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And we got to—	9:22
Laurie Green	—during the club?	9:23
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Right. No, we had to go—	9:23
Laurie Green	You registered at the time when you joined the club?	9:26
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No, I didn't register right then, but see, we talked about it to the people in the neighborhood, other than the people in the club.	9:29
Laurie Green	So the club actually got you to register?	9:38
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes. Yes, when they did all that. Listen, I knew and we believed the things that she would advocate for us to do.	9:40
Laurie Green	Oh, okay.	9:55
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And we believed in her. So we knew that, so it wasn't any ifs and ands about it. We would do those kind of things. And when we needed names to go to the city and stuff for resources and for things like that, we had no problems.	9:56
Laurie Green	Who were some of the candidates whose rallies you went to that were particularly important to you?	10:19
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Well, I can't count the rallies that I went to. They were conducted by, April, bless her heart, which were principal of this particular school I was talking about, the Washington School.	10:24
Laurie Green	Oh, [indistinct 00:10:41].	10:40
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah, Blair Hunt. I guess she told you about him, didn't she?	10:42
Laurie Green	Mm-hmm.	10:46
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	He was a very, actually he was a scholarly person. And he had a lot of information, but he would have a candidate at the particular rally. But I can't remember them. I don't remember their names. A lot of them are not really functioning now anymore, but that's a long time.	10:50
Laurie Green	Let me ask you—another question about the club is, so you didn't have any light—did you have electric lighting in the neighborhood and did you have curbs, sidewalks, those sorts of things or did you have to, when you started the club, did you have to make demands on the city to get those things instituted in your neighborhood?	11:15
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah, you would have to because sometimes they don't do them. The owners would have to do a lot of that themselves. Oh, you talking about the curbside though. Oh, but yeah, they'd come and clean, we have the street sweepers, we have the one that cut the weeds we have to call in because owners was not cut—you could see right out there now, that needs cutting right out there. They cut back on it, so I call them. I usually do that for my area, I call them in.	11:40
Laurie Green	When you started this club, what was the neighborhood like? What were the concerns that women in the neighborhood had about improving the community?	12:16
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	All their concerns were very much, they were at an all-time high, because they wanted to keep the neighborhood in the manner that it wasn't being kept at. So we worked toward that and when we organized L. E. Brown Neighborhood Association, because it was beginning to deteriorate. And these were the things that we wanted to do, we wanted to rehabilitate, revitalize the physical appearance of our neighborhood, which was deteriorating. We would talk about the yards, because everybody was very much concerned about the physical appearance effect.	12:25
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Let's plant flowers, let's trim our hedges, keep them nice, cut our lawns. And they were beautiful, they were beautiful. And we always talked about those kind of things. They studied value of things in our neighborhood in that club. We talked about that because we had people that were on the same accord with that type of activity, the aesthetic beauty of where you live and things like that. And they tried to do these kind of things.	13:24
Laurie Green	And were there any things that you had to make demands on the city to put into the neighborhood?	14:01
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	The traffic was beginning to get heavy and we wanted to do stop signs. And the street over, the next street going over here, called Saint Paul, that was the street that had the cobblestones. And that particular organization started it, but L. E. Brown had it—it was done under the L. E. Brown Organization. But we had started it with the Tate Avenue Club, because it was cobblestone and everybody wasn't familiar with cobblestones. I was already because I came from New Orleans, they had a lot of cobblestones down there. They still have a lot of streets have cobblestone.	14:08
Laurie Green	So what was it that you wanted to happen, to have cobblestones put in or to have them—	14:55
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No, we wanted to take them out. No—	15:00
Laurie Green	Oh.	15:00
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	—and resurface the street.	15:02
Laurie Green	Oh.	15:03
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And what they did—after we organized L. E. Brown, that's when the resurfacing was done.	15:03
Laurie Green	Oh.	15:10
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	So we had that. It was done, so I gave up on that.	15:10
Laurie Green	When did you start teaching?	15:22
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	In '51.	15:30
Laurie Green	And where did you teach?	15:30
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	I started at Ford Elementary.	15:33
Laurie Green	Ford Road?	15:37
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. I taught there for four years. Then I came out on sick leave, that's when Beverly went to California. And then when I went back, I went to another school called Lauderdale. That's where I retired. I thought about it, it took a long time, but the doctor wanted me to do that, to retire, so. I had done it for 25 years though. And so, he passed. I hadn't quite retired when he passed, but I was in the process in '75 and I retired in '77.	15:38
Laurie Green	What was your husband's name?	16:26
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Harold, H-A-R-O-L-D.	16:28
Laurie Green	And your daughter's name is Beverly?	16:35
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Beverly, mm-hmm, Beverly Holmes.	16:38
Laurie Green	Beverly Holmes?	16:40
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes, sir.	16:41
Laurie Green	What year was your daughter born?	16:43
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Huh?	16:44
Laurie Green	What year was your daughter born?	16:48
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	1943.	16:48
Laurie Green	Okay. What were—	16:48
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	So both of us was from New Orleans. We didn't have any family here when we came here. We didn't have anybody but the two of us.	16:57
Laurie Green	Now, do you remember when they started to work on school segregation?	17:10
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah, I think so. That's when they had the sit-ins, I think, with the students from colleges and they used to go to the lunch counters. I never did see any of that because I would be busy, so. But I would read about it and hear about it through the news media about where they sat-in today, where they would sit-in tomorrow, different places like that.	17:17
Laurie Green	When did they start to integrate the schools that you worked at?	17:53
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	That was in the Lauderdale, I think Lauderdale, '57 and they didn't do it until about 1960. Think it was about 1960, something like that. They didn't integrate children who was passing at first.	17:56
Laurie Green	Oh.	18:25
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah, they did Black ones first. See, because there weren't any White children in the area anyway.	18:44
Laurie Green	Oh.	18:47
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	It was predominately a Black area. And one time it was a predominately White school. And when I went to that school, they had given it to Blacks. They had given it to the Blacks and I was among the first staff teachers that they took in this program, okay? So, we got passed. We didn't have White children because all the White people had moved out the area—	18:47
Laurie Green	Oh.	19:25
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	—when the school was turned over to us. So I met new people.	19:25
Laurie Green	Why were White people moving out of the area?	19:34
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Because their enrollment had fallen off—	19:38
Laurie Green	Oh.	19:41
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	—a lot because people were selling their homes and financially, the Blacks were encroaching on them. And they figured that might've been too close for comfort or something. I don't know that's what the problem was. It's close to LeMoyne Garden Project that's over there by LeMoyne College. Children go from there, certain areas in that LeMoyne Project to Lauderdale. And then the others would be living in the surrounding area. And just like there is Cleaborn Homes right down the street there, a project, well they are Georgia Avenue School, a little school right around the corner, the middle school around there and go to Washington, because they come out of Cleaborn Homes, they come out of Foote Homes, they come out of LeMoyne Garden. So that's what I think, we are surrounded by housing projects, this little area here. We're surrounded by housing projects.	19:42
Laurie Green	And I was wondering if whether Whites moving out of the area around Lauderdale was connected to the Memphis Housing Authority building housing projects.	21:00
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	It was there already.	21:12
Laurie Green	Oh, it was?	21:13
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Oh, yeah, it was there already. I came in and found that thing. It was there already.	21:14
Laurie Green	Have there been controversies in Memphis about where housing projects were built? Have there been conflicts where people didn't want them built in the neighborhood or something like that? Did you remember that from when you were first living in Memphis, that there were conflicts over housing?	21:26
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	I don't know, because they were there already.	21:46
Laurie Green	Oh.	21:47
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	I don't know what conflict they had, because I've only had experience with the one that was built in New Orleans. And the area that they did the demolition was mostly where Black people lived—	21:50
Laurie Green	Oh.	22:05
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	—which was very much needed. So I imagine it was just the same way here. It could have been that selection, perhaps. I don't have no date on that, how they did it. I guess it was deterioration of houses and they needed better housing conditions, and so they just selected an area that would serve the race of people that they were building the homes for, because the schools were there already. LeMoyne College was there, Booker T. Washington was where it is right now, which was there. Well the school's there but now it's Martin Luther King Cultural Educational Center.	22:05
Laurie Green	Oh.	23:11
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	It's no longer a public school, but they do have classes there, you get the GED there, and all of that is in there. They do job placements and all of that. A lot of things going on in that congregation with working with education and office in there. So it's no longer a school, for say, because you have a school right around the corner, elementary school. Less than a block over is another school, the middle school. And then further down by LeMoyne College you have Cummings Elementary, and I used to go to that school.	23:11
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And then Lauderdale, all those schools right there are serving the area with the large housing population, because that's where most of our children are, in the surrounding schools. And there's Monroe School. Really, a lot of schools. And that's why this organization, we thought about the possibility of so many things that we could get help from because we're by a medical center. People could walk up here, if they didn't have car fare, to a clinic and things like that.	23:58
Laurie Green	To L. E. Brown?	24:41
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. Oh, you're talking about L. E. Brown? Yeah. Because we had that, the hospital center, which we're working to it being the largest one in the world and they're really on the road to that. And you see, we have the college, we have the high school, we have the middle schools, and they all right in L. E. Brown neighborhood. Because, now, all those boxes on the porch, the principal of the school sent them to me for the summer program that we were supposed to have, but we couldn't get in the building over there because they're building and things like that.	24:41
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And so, I called her and I talked to her yesterday. And she told me, "I had an idea." I told her we wanted to have our back to school picnic as usual and what I wanted to know, if I could give the books to not only the children that would have been in our educational enrichment program this past summer in July, could I give them to any child that came? I said I wanted to put up a sign, say, "Free Book Fair". She said, "Perfect, that's the best thing you could ever do." Said, "Give books to everybody."	25:29
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	See, I got it all in here. I had gotten them in different grade levels and everything. Then they sent me all of those. Then I told them I couldn't put them over there, so I had to put them out there. I got plastic bags out there, I got some in the back. I have got—	26:06
Laurie Green	Wow.	26:18
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	—books, books, books. And so she said, "That'll be fine. Do it like that." And she said, "Now if you need any space to do it," she said, "I'll open the school for you to come and do it." Because we were planning to do it on the grounds over there. She said, "Well you come and I'll let you do it on the grounds of the school." And I said, "That's the best thing I heard yet," saying things like that. And so all of those books, I have gone through them and I had some of the kid's names that I know the grade level and I knew what they were going to need help in, and things like that. And I had done talked with the teacher. I said, "Well we doing this educational enrichment program and aid." But we didn't get the money, so it's too late now to start a program when school is about to open. Because it was a little mix-up in sending out the funds to do that particular activity, which we do almost every year.	26:18
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And we have a wonderful cleanup program, and that's a big thing. The Bag-a-Thon, City Beautiful, they send our caps. And the bags, we don't have to buy bags or anything, they send out so many bags to put the trash in and caps for the children. And they send out little favors and different things like that. And it's a big thing when we have that, so we have that open to everybody, to all children in the neighborhood, not just the ones we frequent and work with all the time, and their children. We don't exclude anybody.	27:23
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	So if you're going to try to educate the whole community, you can't just work with a certain little segment of it and leave the others out there. Or they're going to get developed maybe and take them right away from us, because sometimes that force could be stronger than the force that we have trying to keep them. So you have to start from there and go there. That's just like opposing evil and good. Sometimes evil can be so much stronger than good, and so it just sweeps the good away. And we don't want that.	28:08
Laurie Green	So after you got involved with the Tate Avenue Association, have you been involved in the, say in the '60s, were you involved in any other kind of community projects? Or was the main thing that you were involved in 2001?	28:52
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Well at that time, that was the only club we had around here, was the Tate Avenue Club, other than a church club or something like that. But now I'm involved with a lot of them.	29:16
Laurie Green	Were you involved with the PTA?	29:23
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes, I'm on that PTA and I'm on that school council.	29:30
Laurie Green	Oh.	29:32
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	I'm with that too.	29:34
Laurie Green	Have you been involved with the PTA for a long time?	29:35
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	With their PTA?	29:38
Laurie Green	Have you been involved with the PTA for a long time?	29:39
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Oh, yeah, because I was always with my school—	29:42
Laurie Green	Oh.	29:43
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	—the PTA with my school. And at that time the PTA was a vital part of the Black school and activity. Because I know when we went to Lauderdale, we had king and queen contests, and everything like that. With a little vote costing 10 cents we bought our first motion picture projector because we didn't have one, we bought our first typewriter, we bought our first TV, and through the PTA, Parent Teacher Association. Now it's PTO. We did that through monies raised through the PTA. Had an activity, matter of fact, and the parents were very supportive, very much supportive. Because when we had the big day where they had the crowning of the king and queen, we'd have parents come and sew things for the little court, for the little girls, the little costumes and the little pretty dress. A lot of them would be made out of paper at that time, so not material, we would use the different colors of crepe paper, and it was very much so.	29:43
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	And the parents were very energetic, very enthused over it because they could sew. Always found out if we had parents in our room that could sew, because we, "Look, we're going to need you." And they was like, "If I'm not working. The day I'm not working, I'll be there," in which they were. So that was the end of the year. That's why we're trying to get this PTA working at this particular school. So, since I don't have any children there or anything, but I am in the neighborhood. So I'm on the council as well a member of PTO.	31:07
Laurie Green	Which school is that?	31:52
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Alonzo Locke, A-L-O-N-Z-O, Locke, L-O-C-K-E.	31:53
Laurie Green	Do you remember when they had the Black Mondays?	32:06
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah.	32:15
Laurie Green	What do you remember about that?	32:15
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	The Black Monday.	32:22
Laurie Green	Didn't like them?	32:22
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Huh?	32:22
Laurie Green	You didn't like them?	32:23
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Well it went into your program, because a lot of times they kept the children because they're off work, and things like that. So what happened, when that activity ended, because as things developed and things got better, and rooms and laws was being changed and everything, well they got rid of that thing, [indistinct 00:32:57] of that because it wasn't needed anymore, so.	32:23
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	But, the worse thing was when the assassination took place. That was the worse that you had to live through. And all the anger, and the destruction, the riots, and things like that. Well, you were very cautious, because you had to go out with the job, they're still going on. They expecting you to be there. So, things like that. So it's one of those—now that was a nightmare that you had to live through, because you'd never know where a fire would be or a breakout, or something like that, but mostly the businesses. Not homes, because they didn't do too much to them. We had to go to the market, things like that, you had to get out in it.	33:07
Laurie Green	Did some of that take place in this neighborhood?	34:25
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No. No, be there really wasn't anything over here—	34:28
Laurie Green	To burn.	34:34
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yeah. No, it really wasn't, because everybody lived in the houses, so there wasn't very many businesses in this area. We had one or two grocery stores, or something like that, but they ain't bother those grocery stores.	34:35
Laurie Green	When Dr. King spoke in Memphis, were you able to go to any of those meetings where he spoke?	34:53
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	No, I didn't go to any of them, but I would listen to him—	34:58
Laurie Green	Oh, on the radio?	34:58
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	—on the news, I think. I think.	34:58
Laurie Green	Okay—	34:59
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Acting and doing some of the same things that we started out to do, rehabilitation, revitalizing and for letting them know their civic responsibility, what they should do, that's all. And getting young people, if they don't have a GED place, we advised them and we'd tell them where to go to get it because, which was very much needed. Because young people—yes, what do you want?	35:19
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	You see we're in the process now of building new homes and L. E. Brown, through Saint Patrick Catholic Church, we have built and sold seven new homes, and we have rehabbed two. And as we're working, I'm on the board of housing with Saint Patrick Catholic Church representing L. E. Brown Neighborhood Association. So we have done that much home, just our street. They're trying to get this street done with all the vacant lots, with houses. Because right now, I think on the drawing board we have about three houses now on the drawing board waiting to be finalized through the housing with the city, but okay. Let's see, we have prospective buyers and they are counseled in the way of saving money and what have you, whatever that needs to be done with that prospective family.	35:53
Laurie Green	Has this neighborhood changed much since you moved here?	37:07
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Yes. Yes, it has. It's changed quite a bit, because most of the houses are not here anymore. Deterioration and some were burned by vagrants, but with nobody in them, you see. And that's why we work so hard when there's a vacant house, work with the resources with the city to see about that house and if the family own it or the owner can rehab it or something like that, because it's so important. With the vagrants it could be a fire any time. So right now we don't have any vacant houses on our street. And there's one or two, and they're another street, because I had spoken to them about these and they going to look at that and see what can be done for these people.	37:12
Laurie Green	You were mentioning to me before that this was in the area that was supposed to get redeveloped as part of the South—	38:12
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Mm-hmm, but they never did mention about it, so I don't know. But a lot of materials was given out. I went to the meetings, workshops and what have you, because I was the focus person because they was going to make a [indistinct 00:38:47], so I was at a lot of meetings about that, so. On paper phase, they would give us about 35 plans with a social [indistinct 00:39:05], so that was the plan in the action book.	39:00
Laurie Green	But there was never any action?	39:13
Lillie Garrison Kirkon	Well, that's what we thought, we were getting somewhere. And see, a lot of money was paid to do this study, because the consultants came from Atlanta, Georgia to do this study. And we had to have group meetings every, about almost every day we went to—to work the plans that were laid down in that particular book. And then nothing evolved from that after integration, the riots and all that kind of stuff, so this didn't turn out to do a thing. So the area of concern would have been better, because they would have saved a lot of the houses. They were old houses, they were very well built. Because the one that's next door there, it was [indistinct 00:40:46], because it wasn't put on the right area, they told me. That's what it used to be. And people moved out to other areas, other suburbs and things like that, quite naturally. They were leaving and getting out because they wanted more space, and because houses were kind of close together, didn't have a lot of footage in between. A lot of houses are not sitting on, I don't know how many acres are in my acres, but we didn't have that. So some of them, I think, became more wealthier, they could afford more ground and that's what they did. That's what I would have did.	39:17

Item Info

Title:

Lillie Kirkon interview recording, 1995 August 18

Date:

August 18, 1995

Creator:

Kirkon, Lillie Garrison

Contributor:

Green, Laurie

Description:

Name: Lillie Garrison Kirkon; Date of birth: 1916-06-18; Place of birth: Jefferson Parish, LA; Occupation(s): educator; Residence: Memphis, TN
Informant ID: 904; Interviewed by: Laurie Green.

Occupation:

Educator

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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RL00170-CS-0876
604f3ffb-d620-47a4-b003-bb1908108564
behindtheveil
1e01c590-5851-43ec-a926-691e25b7912f
ark:/87924/r4zg6tg7f
1e01c590-5851-43ec-a926-691e25b7912f

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Lillie Kirkon interview recording, 1995 August 18

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1. Lillie Kirkon administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Lillie Kirkon interview recording, 1995 August 18

Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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