Alice Livingston interview recording, 1994 August 08 / Behind the Veil / Duke Digital Repository

Alice Simon Livingston

A lot of people when [indistinct 00:00:05].

0:02

Michele Mitchell

Whenever you're ready, ma'am.

0:04

Alice Simon Livingston

Alice Livingston. Born April the 18th, 1920.

0:05

Michele Mitchell

I'm ready whenever you are.

0:17

Alice Simon Livingston

I was born about three miles from here. Lived there until I married, came in this little area about three miles. I went to school at the little school was right near the church right there. We had to walk about three miles to school, get to school and three miles back in the afternoon. And living here, this is the way I looked at it, the family was so— All the family here was so close, we got along well at that school, the teacher had to teach from. She start with ABC class, then you go to the first grade, to the sixth grade.

0:18

Alice Simon Livingston

And me myself growing up, I had one brother younger than me, and I used to love to be— And every Friday the teacher would give us a little about half an hour, like a little program. Now you could prepare anything you wanted to put to— And every Friday I was had some, and I would try to get my other brother, my next brother to me, but he was so shy. He'd learned his little recitation, we'll call it a little recitation. Well, when he'd get before the class, he'd never given me his little speech yet. I used to [indistinct 00:02:04].

1:19

Alice Simon Livingston

And he used to offend me so much, and we had to walk this was a dirt road. It was a dirt road, out of all the things that I disliked as growing up, and it would offend me so much and I wanted my brother to get offended about it and he never would, there was a White school bus would pass that was taking the children to school but we had to walk. And when they would graduate elementary school, there was a bus taking them to town to go to high school, but we didn't have that. If we graduated here from the sixth grade, we had to go live in New Iberia with somebody to be able to get to high school.

2:03

Alice Simon Livingston

And this is a thing that I would never forget. Little brother Don and the bus driver would see them, I'm sure they would always— Our school would be letting out when the bus would pass, they would always want to throw spit balls, papers ball, [indistinct 00:03:18] and that used to offend me so much. And I strived so hard for me to get a [indistinct 00:03:27], but my parents wasn't able enough to pay for me to go to school. But I said, "God, if I ever have children, I'll do anything I can that my children get an education."

2:56

Alice Simon Livingston

And I was the first female in Iberia Parish to drive a school bus.

3:40

Michele Mitchell

Really?

3:47

Alice Simon Livingston

The first female. And when I talked to my husband and getting the bus, he just wasn't, "How we going to get that kind of money to get—" I said, "Well, the bus going to pay us to drive and—" Well, I was the first female in Iberia Parish to drive a school bus. I have seven children. All seven of them have college education. All seven of them. And they all furthered their education after they got on their own. Six of them graduated at Southern University, but one of the girls, when she graduated high school, she went to, it was all on scholarship. I took that much interest in them that when they finished up high school, they all went on, they went to college on scholarship.

3:48

Alice Simon Livingston

One of the girls, when she finished up high school here in Iberia, valedictorian, the other girls saluted to her, boys, they all went to college, got college education, master's degree. She went to school in New York at Barnard College, an all girls school.

4:51

Michele Mitchell

I know it.

5:13

Alice Simon Livingston

Oh, you know it?

5:14

Michele Mitchell

Yes ma'am.

5:14

Alice Simon Livingston

And when she went there three years, but she met a boy from Africa, he was at— Well the name of he college, the boys on that, how you call that? Well, he was studying law.

5:16

Michele Mitchell

It's Columbia.

5:32

Alice Simon Livingston

Columbia. Well, he was studying law and they met, but he graduated his law degree a year before she did her Barnard stay. Well, she got a fellowship that she was an exchange student in Africa and they got married, but after she married, she didn't like it that much. She said he hadn't explained to her though the lifestyle of, she went to Uganda, and the college she went to finish her degree was Kampala, I think. Something like that. And she graduated there and she lived there, but she didn't like it. She came back.

5:33

Alice Simon Livingston

Now her son, her and this man had a child when she came back, had a little baby. I was living across there, and I had to train him to walk him. He just, he right now he's going to be a senior this year at Morehouse. That's where he been going to college. This summer— And he's going to school and he's over all the freshman. And he tell me, "Dear, I carries all the freshman's keys right here in my pocket." He's like over all freshman at Morehouse and work. I mean, that's a job on a scholarship, and he's going to be a senior this year.

6:21

Alice Simon Livingston

The other girl, her son, he graduated this year from college, but right now he plan to go to law school, but he's working in a District Attorney's office right now. He going to take off a year from school, he ain't but 21, finished up college at 21. And he's working in the District Attorney office in New York. He going to take off from school a whole year, but his plan is to study law.

7:06

Alice Simon Livingston

My oldest son, the two boys, they went to Vietnam. They had them finished up high school, they had started college, but they went to Vietnam for the war. And he came back. Well when he finished up, he came back and finished up at Southern University. He got his master from John Hopkins in Baltimore, Maryland. His oldest daughter, she finish up at Southern. Right now, she's in some school in Illinois on a fellowship, she can go till she be— She named after me, Alice, until she be Dr. Alice Livingston. She says she don't know how she going to handle it, but she's— His second daughter. She, right now she finish up at Harvard in DC and she's right now doing her— She was playing to study law. She's doing an intern right now somewhere in California.

7:37

Alice Simon Livingston

But when that summer course be over, she already have a fellowship to go on to Harvard at Massachusetts, get her her master's degree in going on through law school. I had had a beautiful life, but it was, I worked hard. Now that's what I keep telling my children. Now this boy would live right there, my son, he got a college education this morning. He came in and tell me about his little grandson. I said, "Now listen here son." I didn't want that part on tape though, and this is what I'm fixing to say right now— Then you ask me anything else you'd like to ask me.

8:37

Michele Mitchell

What did you— It's just, I mean it's amazing how hard you've worked.

9:15

Alice Simon Livingston

Cut cane with a cane knife, picked okra and picked cotton, and just did every farm work that a woman could do. And when I was driving that school bus, I was living right across there, we had cotton. And I tell them, I said seven o'clock I got up and fixed breakfast for all my children and the baby one, you see, when I start driving bus, my third child hadn't start school.

9:22

Alice Simon Livingston

And I'd bring my baby, I had a little something in my bus, I'll bring that baby along with me and I'd go and make my route always on time and have long— And you see, on my bus, I had to carry from first grade to high school. I had to stop at elementary school and put the elementary children in, but this school we had [indistinct 00:10:14] closed down where I went to school and going on to high school, 7:30, I was on that bus gone, and my babies and my done fixed— And so many children today, it's hating me to see going to school without breakfast. And I done fixed breakfast for all my children. I had a hard life away, my husband, he married, he's passed. He was a reverend. He got to be a reverend after we were married, became. And I lived a happy life, but a hard one. But I don't regret one minute of all the hard work that I did.

9:51

Michele Mitchell

Oh, the way your children have turned out here, that is just a real testament to what you did. That's beautiful.

10:53

Alice Simon Livingston

And I would like for you to read this card in that little second one, that my little grandson— Look, right in front of there, when he graduated college the other day, well he wrote me, I sent him a little gift when he graduated his college this summer.

11:00

Michele Mitchell

Yeah.

11:13

Alice Simon Livingston

Look, what he wrote and told me, and I sent— Open it up and read what he said. Now that's the—

11:14

Michele Mitchell

That's beautiful.

11:21

Alice Simon Livingston

And that look, when he graduated high school, he had to write three thesis, the most important people in his life. He wrote about his grandmother, Mandela and one of his teacher in high school. And what he wrote about me, he made me cry. He said he had in there that she gave to her children so much that it overflowing in her grandchildren. And he said— We had plenty cows, the teachers would buy butter with me and make churn that butter. He said, "And she said to pay for her girls music lesson, she used to churn butter and sell it to pay for them." And both of my daughters played music for their church right here.

11:26

Michele Mitchell

You used to churn butter and sell eggs?

12:20

Alice Simon Livingston

Selling butter in a jar like this, and set them, teachers would buy with me to help me to pay for these girls music lesson. It was just that— And I would sell eggs, the teachers would buy eggs with me, to help me to get money to keep these girl with the music lesson. And I had time to do all of that.

12:25

Alice Simon Livingston

So now they sometimes, "Mother, I don't see how you did it because I ain't got but one and I ain't got time to." I said I was determined that my children didn't have to walk that dusty road and the White children throwing spitball on them, that they could stand shoulder to shoulder with anybody. And that older girl, when she graduated high school, she graduated salutatory, she had a scholarship to go to Southern University four years. When she finished up her four years college, she got a fellowship, she went to Yale. She got her masters. She started on her doctorate, but she got married and had her son and her and husband didn't work it out, so she had to quit. But she have all she to do right now to be Dr. Betty Livingston is write out her— But she had to stop to carry her son through.

12:52

Alice Simon Livingston

But her son is planning on going, and she live in New Jersey and she said right now he's commuting, working in the DA— He taking off a year, he working in DA's office. You can go home and come every day, and that's something he have to do to go to law school. He have to learn something in the DA's office, he have to do to go to law school. And as I tell them, I said, "Now one thing I can say, I worked hard, but you all made me so happy that I don't regret any of my hard work." The children made me such a happy person.

13:50

Alice Simon Livingston

Both of the girls played music for that church right there. When the older girl got ready to go to college, the other girl was ready to take the piano in there. The oldest girl, she was an organist. When she would get to that organ, children and old folks would [indistinct 00:14:49] was so nobody would walk, nobody would move them, just to hear that little girl playing that organ. But the other one, she was a pianist, she could play a piano. And it all made me some happy people, and this one here hadn't caught it real good yet here, he majored in agriculture and that was, he had been working, but not in his field. But he's getting along all right now. I don't have to give anything to him and his wife, they're making a living. They're own living and doing fine.

14:32

Michele Mitchell

So when did, you told me about how the school out here stopped at sixth grade.

15:29

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah.

15:36

Michele Mitchell

And so did you go to work then? What did you do after sixth grade?

15:37

Alice Simon Livingston

Work with my father and mother in the field.

15:42

Michele Mitchell

So what was that like? That must have been a—

15:46

Alice Simon Livingston

Oh, don't, honey, I was praying day and night asking God to change this condition. Look, this what I make him laugh about. I say, and I'll always be saying, "Lord, I pray I don't marry a farmer." But I marry another farmer. My daddy was farming about three miles from here, but we made good crop, but he still wasn't able to get me to get a place for me to go to. It was his desire that I get the high school education, and I'll always say, "If I could get a high school education, I'll go to college. I'll find a way to go to college." But I wasn't [indistinct 00:16:24] all of my seven children, college, master's degree. The baby just registered. He's teaching in Lafayette, [indistinct 00:16:33] but he done register at Southern University for start his Master and I tell him, "Son, mother is pleased, mother is very pleased about it." I had a hard life, but a happy one.

15:48

Michele Mitchell

So you started, you said that you were praying.

16:47

Alice Simon Livingston

Oh yes.

16:49

Michele Mitchell

Oh Lord.

16:50

Alice Simon Livingston

Oh yes.

16:51

Michele Mitchell

Now what was it like cutting cane? Because—

16:53

Alice Simon Livingston

We did not have cane cutters, but now you have to have a cane knife in your hand and cut that top off. Then you have to cut the bottom off and put it so they could pick it up too.

16:55

Michele Mitchell

Yeah. See some people have been telling me that was fun to cut cane, and I'm wondering how would it be fun to cut cane? That looks like some work.

17:09

Alice Simon Livingston

That's some work honey. Oh. And I didn't have that kind of muscle to do all that work. But I had, and I was making them laugh. Just yesterday I was talking with somebody, I say, "One thing I did, that's when we was nine—" My mother had nine children and her [indistinct 00:17:35] made 11 people a cook for. I said, "But I learned to cook good, I learned to bake and do all kind of stuff." My mother had liked to pick cotton. And by me willing to cook all that food for all these people, I said 13 years old, I was cooking for all these people.

17:16

Michele Mitchell

When you were 13 you were cooking for 11 people?

17:54

Alice Simon Livingston

Yes indeed. And you know what it was to wash— Well, she helped me wash when we had mustard green, that was a job to wash all these leaves and mustard greens. before she would go, she'll help wash mustard green, and you know how much you'd have to for all these people.

17:56

Michele Mitchell

Wash and wash and wash.

18:12

Alice Simon Livingston

But I learned to cook at that age, because I didn't like the field, but I was wishing that I would never have to marry a farmer, but I turned round and married a farmer anyway. But I was the first female to drive a school bus in Iberia parish.

18:13

Michele Mitchell

When did you start doing that?

18:29

Alice Simon Livingston

Let's see how old I could have been then, because I had three children at that time. I should have been about 30 something. I can't tell, quote it directly, about 30 something. And after that there was another Black woman, her husband was driving bus and her husband died. And she said, "I don't have no kind of trade." And she said— She had been her and her husband would run a dairy, loading cans. So she went to Reverend Jackson who lived in, he was principal of a school at the time, and she went crying to him and saying, "What I'm going to do?" He said, "Look at Alice, Alice been driving that bus for how many years, your husband got a bus, why don't—"

18:31

Alice Simon Livingston

And she said she was so afraid, how could I do it? And she went, she said, and she took the test and she drove until she retired too though. But she drove a couple of years after her husband passed. Before she was here, no, had enough years for her retire, but he could point her to, "Look at Alice. Alice been driving that bus."

19:21

Michele Mitchell

Now, see, how did you start driving a bus?

19:43

Alice Simon Livingston

I could have drive a car already, you see. And after we bought the bus, it was not much different. When we first drive cars, they used to have the shift like a bus. When I first, that's what I learned on the car, shifting like a bus. I already knew that procedure of driving, and I just said I wanted to do it. I wanted my children to be able to go to school.

19:48

Michele Mitchell

Who bought the bus?

20:12

Alice Simon Livingston

Me and him. But we had—

20:14

Michele Mitchell

You and your husband bought a bus?

20:16

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah, me and him.

20:17

Michele Mitchell

Wasn't that some work to get that money to buy a bus?

20:20

Alice Simon Livingston

Well, I was just— Look, don't you know, I was talking about that with my children yesterday. He's planning on getting a bus. I was telling them how what we did, they said, "You all got an [indistinct 00:20:33]." But they had some rich White folks back then they used to finance things for Black people, they hadn't stole all the Black— I don't want that on the tape though.

20:23

Michele Mitchell

That must have been really expensive though.

20:40

Alice Simon Livingston

Yes, it was. But he gave us time to pay for it. But the bus pay, you know, you get—

20:43

Michele Mitchell

How much was it to get the bus?

20:49

Alice Simon Livingston

I can't remember right now. I have the papers and stuff, but I don't, but I can't— But it was a brand new bus. It was expensive.

20:51

Michele Mitchell

It was brand new.

21:00

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. And this is what the man told us when we got the bus. He says now, he said, "I'm not going to finance a used bus. I'll finance you all the bus with a brand new one." They say, "Anytime you need a tire or if you have some work to do on your bus, don't have to pay me that month. Use the money. And when you come to pay the next month, you won't have no interest to pay. I just want you to pay me all that I loaned you for the bus." And that's how we did it. And they worked it out well.

21:00

Michele Mitchell

And did children pay to get on the bus?

21:30

Alice Simon Livingston

No, the parish was paying us. The parish paid you to drive a bus, you see, the school board was paying you— The school board paid you to bring children to school.

21:33

Michele Mitchell

So you would take them to New Iberia?

21:46

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah, New Iberia and I had another little stop in the country before I got to New Iberia.

21:46

Michele Mitchell

Now, the area where you said that you grew up three miles from here?

21:55

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah, back down this way. Three miles.

21:57

Michele Mitchell

Is that called, is that Freetown too?

22:00

Alice Simon Livingston

No, they call that part— They say Coteau, but there's the marsh. It was like a marsh they'll call it. Everybody talk about it, they say the marsh.

22:02

Michele Mitchell

The marsh?

22:11

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. On the marsh.

22:15

Michele Mitchell

Were there mostly Black people there or were there some White people?

22:19

Alice Simon Livingston

There was some White people there too. Yeah, Black and White, but the White was riding a bus to go to school. There they was riding a bus too to go to school.

22:21

Michele Mitchell

Did you ever have any contact with them when you were little besides seeing them in the bus?

22:35

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. Yeah, we had contact with them.

22:39

Michele Mitchell

I just really find it amazing that, it sounds like you worked various jobs at one time when your children were coming up.

22:47

Alice Simon Livingston

I didn't hear you.

22:58

Michele Mitchell

When your children were coming up, you were driving the bus. Were you doing other jobs too?

22:59

Alice Simon Livingston

Working in the field, picking cotton and picking okra and stuff like that. And you see the school closes in September. We had the summer for to get the cotton and the okra, me and my husband. And then some of them started getting big enough to help us in the field.

23:02

Michele Mitchell

And you said that your husband was a reverend?

23:31

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah, he died a reverend. He wasn't when I married him, but he—

23:33

Michele Mitchell

Where did he pastor?

23:37

Alice Simon Livingston

St. Martinville. And he had another one, a little place they called back there, Petit'Anse. He had two churches.

23:39

Michele Mitchell

Oh.

23:47

Alice Simon Livingston

Petit'Anse and St. Martinville.

23:47

Michele Mitchell

Could I ask you just a few quick questions? You told me about your children's names and your brothers and sisters' names?

23:55

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah, my brothers and sisters. Okay. My oldest sister was named Ada. We were Simon by birth. And the second sister was— She done pass, huh? The second sister was Avia Simon.

24:01

Michele Mitchell

Avia?

24:23

Alice Simon Livingston

A-V-I-A. She done pass. And the third sister, she's still alive. She's 80 years old. Irene Simon. And the oldest brother, Matthew Simon. And the next brother, he done pass, Marshall Simon. And I'm next, Alice Simon. And the next one was the little brother that Alec Simon who I could never get him to go on program. And the next was a sister Goodie Simon, she lives in California right now. She's still alive. And the last is Chester Simon. I got all nine of them. [indistinct 00:25:27]

24:24

Michele Mitchell

You sure do.

25:27

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. That's my family. And my mother was Louisa Simon and Morris Simon.

25:33

Michele Mitchell

Lawrence?

25:38

Alice Simon Livingston

Morris.

25:39

Michele Mitchell

Morris.

25:39

Alice Simon Livingston

M-O-R-R-I-S.

25:40

Michele Mitchell

And what was your mother's name before she married?

25:46

Alice Simon Livingston

Her maiden name? Brousard, Louisa Brousard.

25:49

Michele Mitchell

Now I'm going to ask you an unfair question. Do you remember when your parents were born about, what year?

25:54

Alice Simon Livingston

I have record of my father, but I don't feel like going to look for it. I got the book, but he said now my mother couldn't read her and she didn't— But he say her mother would refer to him when certain thing happened when she born, and he could read well. So he figured it out. So he say he had about five years older than her. He knew his age, but easily in the 1800 now, but I can't tell what year right now, just offhand.

26:01

Michele Mitchell

So probably around the 1890s or so.

26:31

Alice Simon Livingston

Something.

26:33

Michele Mitchell

Something like that.

26:33

Alice Simon Livingston

I know he'd be a hundred years old if he was living, but he passed. That's what we talked about that not very long.

26:36

Michele Mitchell

Were they both born in this area too?

26:45

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah, she was born a little further down that way. But he was born right where I was born, he was born and raised there. Yeah. On the marsh.

26:52

Michele Mitchell

This is all Iberia Parish, right?

27:01

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. All Iberia Parish.

27:03

Michele Mitchell

And both your mother and father worked the field, right?

27:06

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah.

27:08

Michele Mitchell

Now did your father own his own land?

27:09

Alice Simon Livingston

I'm living on land right now that my father left to me right now. And all of us had a nice hunk.

27:12

Michele Mitchell

Well, that's wonderful.

27:23

Alice Simon Livingston

Yes. That's what I tell my kids. We all nine of us had a nice hunk of land when they pass. That's my father's what? My inheritance, what I'm living on now.

27:25

Michele Mitchell

It's beautiful land too. And your husband's name?

27:38

Alice Simon Livingston

Theodore, Theodore C. Livingston.

27:45

Michele Mitchell

So his family was out here too, farming?

27:47

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. Yes, indeed. He was born and raised right near here too.

27:54

Michele Mitchell

So he's grown in Freetown?

28:02

Alice Simon Livingston

Oh yeah. We knew each other at that little school right there.

28:10

Michele Mitchell

So that's where you met?

28:10

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. Yeah. And I made the kids laugh all the time. I said, "But, and when I met him, there's something about him I just didn't like, never dreamed that would've been my husband when we was at that little school." Yeah.

28:11

Michele Mitchell

Oh, that's something.

28:25

Alice Simon Livingston

That really is.

28:25

Michele Mitchell

And so he was born around the same time you were?

28:39

Alice Simon Livingston

No, he had five years older than me. I think it's 1915 or '13 something, at least. Was it 1915? Yeah, he had five years older than me.

28:40

Michele Mitchell

And then he passed a little while ago.

28:52

Alice Simon Livingston

'92, he passed in '92.

28:56

Michele Mitchell

So when you first met, he was farming.

29:01

Alice Simon Livingston

He farmed all his life. He born in the farming family. That's was all what we would mostly all do around here. His father was a farmer.

29:03

Michele Mitchell

Cane farming?

29:12

Alice Simon Livingston

Cane farming, cotton and—

29:13

Michele Mitchell

You see, somebody I met told me that there was no cotton farming here. I'm like, "No, people keep telling me that there's cotton here."

29:18

Alice Simon Livingston

Oh Lord, have mercy, don't remind my finger of it. Don't remind, because that cotton would open a little sharp stuff, and after you'd break that open your hand was a little bit kind of tender, and that evening you had to go pull that cotton.

29:23

Michele Mitchell

With those—

29:39

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. Don't remind my finger of them.

29:42

Michele Mitchell

Would y'all go sell your cotton and your okra and your cane?

29:47

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah.

29:51

Michele Mitchell

Who'd you sell it to? Somebody?

29:51

Alice Simon Livingston

No, now the cotton. When we first, when we met, there was a cotton gin not far from here, but at one time they had to go to Youngsville with the cotton. Sugar cane and all of that, Youngsville. Little further. And the okra went to New Iberia factory. They would buy it and can it and ship it to different places.

29:53

Michele Mitchell

Oh, so you sent the okra to New Iberia.

30:15

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah.

30:16

Michele Mitchell

So you never had to live on some White person's land and depend on them to give you money?

30:21

Alice Simon Livingston

No.

30:25

Michele Mitchell

This was all your money.

30:25

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. I mean, when I was with my daddy, but when I marry him, we shared crop a while, have to give some of that stuff. But with my daddy had all this own land to farm.

30:26

Michele Mitchell

So you just share a crop, like you said, for a while?

30:42

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah.

30:44

Michele Mitchell

When you got married?

30:45

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah.

30:45

Michele Mitchell

Couple years?

30:47

Alice Simon Livingston

Couple of years. Yeah, a good while, maybe about 10 years.

30:52

Michele Mitchell

Did that seem a lot different from the way you had grown up?

30:56

Alice Simon Livingston

Some of the reason that I determined my children wasn't going to live and share crop because said my daddy didn't share. But honey, I farmed so much, I program it so much in my mind that my children was not going to share crop, that they all came up taking care of themself. You see? Now, when the boys came out of the service, they had a grant, the two oldest one, they had a grant to go to school with that. But the others, they all graduated valedictorian, salutatory. They all had scholarship to keep on going. And that was.

31:04

Michele Mitchell

So you knew that you wanted something else for your children.

31:41

Alice Simon Livingston

Honey, I knew I wanted something and that's why right now I'm not thrilled— I'm thrilled about the little grand baby right there, but he has desired that I teach him, right, the little fella, he can't talk. But he always see me reading. He go get him a— He like to go get a book. He know A and he know X, "A, X." And I enjoy him so much to [indistinct 00:32:15]. And he going to make a year old, but I told him I— And I want to help them out so they can get on their feet because everybody else is all doing well, and it's—

31:44

Michele Mitchell

What are the names of your children?

32:27

Alice Simon Livingston

All right. The oldest one is Theodore Junior. Second is Thomas. That's all Livingston I'm talking about now. And Benjamin. Betty, Norma, Eugene and Pernell.

32:29

Michele Mitchell

Pernell?

32:51

Alice Simon Livingston

Pernell, P-E-R-N-E-L-L.

32:57

Michele Mitchell

And you do have grandchildren?

32:58

Alice Simon Livingston

Oh yes. I can't— Oh yes, I'll have to start counting to get them also.

33:01

Michele Mitchell

That's okay. And they were all born?

33:06

Alice Simon Livingston

No, the older boy when he finished up at Southern. He went to Maryland. So some of his children born in Maryland, some born, he living in Dallas now, some born in Dallas. The third boy live in Kentucky. And all three of his children born in Kentucky. Well, Thomas, the second one, he lives in New Orleans. His children born in New Orleans. Now Betty, her son born in Baton Rouge, but now she's in New Jersey. Norma wasn't born in Africa, but she came on back and he's—

33:09

Michele Mitchell

They were all born, your children were born in the fifties? The forties?

33:46

Alice Simon Livingston

Let's see. TC right now, he made 52 on August the 22nd. So how old that put it when he born?

33:52

Michele Mitchell

52.

34:01

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. So that's, we in '94, he must have born in '42. Huh?

34:03

Michele Mitchell

'42.

34:05

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah, that's two from '42.

34:05

Michele Mitchell

So he was born in '42 and then Thomas is born around.

34:15

Alice Simon Livingston

Two years after him.

34:19

Michele Mitchell

And Benjamin.

34:20

Alice Simon Livingston

Two years after him.

34:20

Michele Mitchell

And Betty.

34:21

Alice Simon Livingston

Betty is two years after him. But Norma is three years after Betty.

34:23

Michele Mitchell

And Eugene.

34:30

Alice Simon Livingston

Now Eugene, Norma have six years older than Eugene. So I thought I was through then, and here I come back with Eu.

34:31

Michele Mitchell

So when was Pernell born?

34:43

Alice Simon Livingston

He born the two years after Eugene. And then don't you know, well, the trouble is Norma didn't, when he born, Norma was offended. She had been the baby six years, and it took her a long time to get a credit with him coming. And another thing, when after I done got her into school, after I'd gotten Norma into school, she's old enough to go to school at six, I started going to night school.

34:44

Michele Mitchell

Really?

35:15

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. I went to night school.

35:15

Michele Mitchell

Where'd you go to night school?

35:17

Alice Simon Livingston

In New Iberia. They was having teaching and I determined to get my high school education, but I got pregnant with Eugene. And this is a, that's a fact now. Maybe I don't want it on tape.

35:20

Michele Mitchell

You want me to take it off? Amazing. You taught your children how to read before they went to school.

35:34

Alice Simon Livingston

Before they went to school, write their name, they could read. Not Betty her, she did her first grade, but she didn't have to go through this, they would say it's useless. But now this is what I say today, I think it was some disadvantage to her though. You see, she went to this grade, to the third grade, and some children already had failed. You see how? And yet she worked herself so hard. She liked it to be the head of the class and kept herself ahead of the class. And I said [indistinct 00:36:14], and she did it to her little son who's there. He finished up high school at, I mean college, high school at 17 too. And it put some— She had him so advanced that he didn't have to go through the second grade. And, well, Norma was just as advanced, but I wouldn't let him—

35:40

Michele Mitchell

Push her too much.

36:35

Alice Simon Livingston

No, but she wasn't a aggressive person like Betty. She was just contented being herself. But she graduated high school valedictorian, Norma, and she got her four-year scholarship. She went to Barnard College in New York on Columbus Campus.

36:36

Michele Mitchell

Did any of the older children have to help in the field when you were sharecropping, or?

36:59

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah, Betty and Norma worked in the field too.

37:02

Michele Mitchell

So Betty and Norma?

37:06

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah.

37:11

Michele Mitchell

Your sons.

37:11

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. And them two helped in the field too.

37:12

Michele Mitchell

So basically Eugene and Pernell, did they have to?

37:15

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah.

37:17

Michele Mitchell

They all helped in the field.

37:17

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah. They didn't do as much as Betty and Norma because after the crop got kind of thin, he couldn't work as much land. And they start didn't have to do quite as much. But Betty and Norma had to come for Thanksgiving from college and go scrap cane in the field, break okra and all of that, but we were determined.

37:18

Michele Mitchell

Did your children ever have to miss school to make grinding or anything like that?

37:40

Alice Simon Livingston

Yes.

37:43

Michele Mitchell

So they missed school, but all the same, you made sure that they got to college and didn't fall behind.

37:46

Alice Simon Livingston

Didn't fall behind. Now, as for that Benjamin, you see when Benjamin had, he had all the two boys had been going in the service and he graduated salutatory and he had a four-year scholarship to go to— But he'd missed— Now, one thing about him, he had to miss so much school to work in the field to keep the thing of going, he's tried to keep his little sisters from having to work too hard.

37:52

Alice Simon Livingston

But any one of the students had needed help, they was all good with math, they'll ask him, he will always help anybody in class. And the teacher told me, she said, "I've never seen." She said at the time there wasn't but one scholarship come into that high school, you see. She said a whole class was pulling for Benjamin to get the— So, "I've never seen that since I've been teaching school. Not a whole class pulling for one person."

38:16

Alice Simon Livingston

But he'd have anything he knew he'll pass his knowledge on to each one of those, and the whole— He says, "Now mother." He graduated not there, salutatory, he said, "They had so much other security in that class was in school every day. So I was going to school two and three days a week, had to stay in." He was willing to do that, to keep the girls from having to— Two and three days a week. But the class knew he had the ability that he'd get the scholarship, he could hold onto it.

38:52

Michele Mitchell

But that really, I think, says something about you and your husband, that your children would go out in the field, miss school, and then all of them went to college.

39:29

Alice Simon Livingston

All of them went to college. Never fail.

39:41

Michele Mitchell

Was your husband as determined as you were that your children wouldn't have to share crop?

39:48

Alice Simon Livingston

Somebody was here yesterday and I was like, he was determined that in the beginning, I know— Somebody, Rodney King brought me invitation and he was saying about how things ought to be. I said, "Well, I know me and my husband, we had the same interest all the while." And he was determined. He loved the school as much as I did. But I said after they begin to get big enough to make a lot of crop and money was coming in, his idea began to kind of change about— I say after that, money started getting in his pocket. This is the word he would tell me. He said, "Well, all schools do is teach him how to make a living, and they got enough here for them to make a living." I said, "You man, you want much to make a living share cropping? Never." So we didn't agree fully like we did in the first part of our life, but we had laid the foundation. Now, when we start pulling apart, we had already laid the foundation.

39:52

Michele Mitchell

The foundation.

40:45

Alice Simon Livingston

The foundation was already laid and we pulled apart. Our relationship wasn't near what it was in the early part of our life. And I was just telling that to this boy yesterday when he brought me that invitation. I was telling him, I said, he felt yeah, they could have— I had a hard life, but a happy one. And right now the church, I still going to the same church where I was baptized.

40:51

Michele Mitchell

Which church were you baptized in, ma'am?

41:23

Alice Simon Livingston

Right there. Mount Olive Baptist.

41:23

Michele Mitchell

Mount Olive?

41:23

Alice Simon Livingston

Yeah.

41:25

Michele Mitchell

It's a beautiful little church.

41:25

Alice Simon Livingston

Huh?

41:29

Michele Mitchell

That's a beautiful little church.

41:29

Alice Simon Livingston

It really is. And they look to me for so much historical things that went on in the past. The whole church looks to me and in fact, I carried most all who is in that church now. I had something to do with them carrying them to school on that bus. So they all looks to me like a helper.

41:31

Michele Mitchell

That's what Mr and Mrs. Noah were telling me.

41:48

Alice Simon Livingston

Her children too, in church. I had trained them, got them started in church. They living. Yeah—

41:57

Michele Mitchell

I just—

42:06

Alice Simon Livingston

And I am right now I'm a very happy person. In fact, to put one of my cousin came in one day, he was talking and he said— That tape not on, eh?

42:08

Michele Mitchell

Huh?

42:21

Alice Simon Livingston

The tape not on, huh?

42:21

Michele Mitchell

No, it's on, but I can turn it [indistinct 00:42:26].

42:23

Alice Livingston interview recording, 1994 August 08

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1. Alice Livingston administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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