Essie Dozier interview recording, 1995 July 17

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Blair Murphy	Could you state your full name—	0:01
Essie Coker Dozier	Yes.	0:02
Blair Murphy	—and your date of birth, and your place of birth?	0:02
Essie Coker Dozier	My name is Essie Coker Dozier. I was born April 20th, 1931 in Garysburg, Northampton County, North Carolina.	0:04
Blair Murphy	Could you tell me a little bit about that? Growing up there?	0:17
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, it was a rural town. It was country. I think everybody lived on farms, owned farms, and worked on farms. That might have been, I believe, the main source of the livelihood there. I left as a young child.	0:20
Blair Murphy	How old were you when you left?	0:38
Essie Coker Dozier	I was 10.	0:39
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	0:39
Essie Coker Dozier	My family moved here to the Tidewater area and my father settled us in South Norfolk. Which is now part of Chesapeake.	0:41
Blair Murphy	What did your father do in Garysburg? He was a farmer?	0:50
Essie Coker Dozier	He was a farmer.	0:54
Blair Murphy	What did he grow?	0:54
Essie Coker Dozier	We grew everything, just everything. He had the best farm, I do believe. Anywhere around, or as far as the different types of things that we produced, or grew on the farm, there was cotton, of course, soybeans, corn, peanuts.	0:56
Essie Coker Dozier	I think that may have been the main crops that brought in money. And as far as the things that they grew for the family, wheat was grown. We didn't buy flour during the winter. Wheat was grown and my father and his brother and my grandfather in-law would take the wheat to the mill and come back with barrels of flour, which lasted us through the winter. They did the same thing with corn. They took bags of grains of corn to the mill and brought back corn meal.	1:17
Essie Coker Dozier	We produced enough hogs, for all the pork that we needed, the hams, the sausages, the ribs, things that we go to the grocery store now and pay a lot of money for. But those were better. They just tasted so much better. In the line of poultry, there were chickens, ducks, and another foul that's called the Guinea. I don't know if you are familiar with the Guinea or not, but it's a speckled bird and I think it's a dark meat. We didn't grow turkeys.	1:51
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	2:22
Essie Coker Dozier	And we grew our own cattle, which means we produced our own milk. And of course the chickens produced their own eggs. We had wine sap apples, and it was a green apple. We didn't know what it was called then, but now I think it's what is called The Granny Green apple. We had two or three different varieties of peach trees, black walnuts, pecans, plums.	2:22
Blair Murphy	So it sounds like a large farm.	2:50
Essie Coker Dozier	Black grapes. It was a large farm. We grew fields, just acres of watermelons and cantaloupes, things like that.	2:51
Blair Murphy	So did your father own the land?	3:00
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah, grandfather.	3:02
Blair Murphy	Do you know how his family came to acquire the land?	3:03
Essie Coker Dozier	I am not sure. I'm very interested in genealogy and that's what I'm-	3:08
Blair Murphy	Going to research.	3:10
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah. Doing the research to find that out now.	3:11
Blair Murphy	And did the Blacks in the area, did they own their land?	3:14
Essie Coker Dozier	A lot of them did. Many of them did. There were a few who did not, but for the most part, most of the farmers right around us, where we lived did own their farms.	3:17
Blair Murphy	So was your extended family from that area as well?	3:28
Essie Coker Dozier	Yes.	3:32
Blair Murphy	And did you know your grandparents?	3:33
Essie Coker Dozier	I knew my grandparents, both maternal and paternal.	3:34
Blair Murphy	Oh, that's wonderful.	3:39
Essie Coker Dozier	I think I was blessed.	3:39
Blair Murphy	Okay. What did they do? Were they farmers as well?	3:39
Essie Coker Dozier	They were farmers as well.	3:39
Blair Murphy	From the same area?	3:39
Essie Coker Dozier	My mother's parents, my maternal grandparents moved to New Jersey. I don't ever really remember them living in the south.	3:44
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	3:51
Essie Coker Dozier	They moved to New Jersey, probably when I was very young. I don't remember if they ever lived in Suffolk. My fraternal grandparents always lived in North Carolina. And my grandmother moved to Norfolk, because my grandfather had died the year before.	3:52
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	4:08
Essie Coker Dozier	So she moved to—still is a part of our extended family.	4:09
Blair Murphy	Do you remember them telling you any family stories or stories about slavery?	4:13
Essie Coker Dozier	Not really. And that's a regret. It's very regrettable to me that they didn't tell us those things. And I didn't know to ask. My grandmother was a very lovely woman, very caring. My parents were, and my grandparents were. But I used to sit at my grandmother's knees and help her with her needlework. I learned to crochet through her and I helped her make what was called a yo-yo bedspread, which is quite a collector's item by now.	4:20
Blair Murphy	What's that?	4:56
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, a yo-yo bedspread is made from small circles of cloth. She would take top of a cardboard box, such as a shoebox and a saucer. She would use a saucer for a pattern and cut the pattern of the cardboard out. And then she would give that to me, and I would cut pieces of cloth to that pattern. And she would sew them like a beret, that one would wear on the hair. I used to use them for my doll's caps, and stitch around the edge, a hemmed stitch.	4:57
Essie Coker Dozier	And then draw it and put it together. So you have this little gathered circle, and she would sew these circles together, just make hundreds of them. And then she would sew them together at four points, each point, touching another. And she made a double bedspread. But my cousin in New York has a bedspread now. I'd love to have a picture. I'd love to have the bedspread. But he has it. He's oldest grandchild. So yeah, I don't know if my chance will ever come, but it's a very unique item.	5:27
Blair Murphy	I've never heard of it.	6:00
Essie Coker Dozier	I know. It's very unique.	6:00
Blair Murphy	So was it like a quilt?	6:02
Essie Coker Dozier	It was not like a quilt. First of all, it was very colorful, because she sold a lot, she made a lot of things. So that's the way my aunt did a lot of sewing. And so all the scraps were saved. And from these scraps, we would cut those patterns for the yo-yos. And it was not like a quilt, it not used for warmth. It was a decorative item. And one would probably use a red bedspread, or some color bedspread under it, and put this on top of it. And then the red or the blue, whatever color you use, it's very pretty to use at Christmastime under a green bed spread, or red.	6:03
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	6:43
Essie Coker Dozier	And then the colors would show through.	6:45
Blair Murphy	I never heard anything like that. So your family moved when you were 10, to the Tidewater?	6:46
Essie Coker Dozier	To the Tidewater area. My dad moved us down here to—He came in to do defense work. He worked in the Norfolk Navy yard.	6:54
Blair Murphy	So that was in '41?	7:05
Essie Coker Dozier	'42.	7:05
Blair Murphy	'42? Okay.	7:06
Essie Coker Dozier	He came down in '42.	7:06
Blair Murphy	Okay. And do you know exactly what he did in defense?	7:12
Essie Coker Dozier	I don't.	7:14
Blair Murphy	You don't know?	7:14
Essie Coker Dozier	I really don't. He probably could not have told us anyway. Not because it was defense work. He probably could not have shared that with us. If I had thought to ask, he probably was sworn to secrecy. Did not tell, because everything was so protected and secure at that time. Because we did live in this area where there were so many people, and there were advertisements on the radio, not TV in that day, but on the radio and in the newspaper, about keeping private the things that were business of the United States. And there was one scene that was called loose lips sink ships. And I guess that's possible.	7:15
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay. So did your mother work?	7:59
Essie Coker Dozier	Mother worked briefly, but not much. She was always home and my grandmother was home.	8:04
Blair Murphy	Okay. And your grandmother came with you?	8:11
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah. My grandmother lived—We came in 1942. She died in 1950. My grandfather died in 1941.	8:11
Blair Murphy	So South Norfolk was primarily a Black community?	8:20
Essie Coker Dozier	The section where we lived, South Norfolk was Black and White. There were sections that were strictly Black and other sections that were strictly White. My section was on the borderline. My closest neighbor for many, many years was a White family.	8:28
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	8:43
Essie Coker Dozier	And their backyard ran like you had a common, see-through fence, no tall, six foot privacy fence there. So our closest neighbors for many, many years in South Norfolk were White people.	8:44
Blair Murphy	Okay. So what was your neighborhood called?	8:57
Essie Coker Dozier	What was it called?	8:59
Blair Murphy	Yeah. If [indistinct 00:09:04]—	8:59
Essie Coker Dozier	I'm not sure that our neighborhood had a name.	8:59
Blair Murphy	A name.	8:59
Essie Coker Dozier	We lived on St. James Street, so we possibly would've referred to it as the St. James Street area. Because it was part of the focal point of the streets in that area. But my particular section, as far as I can remember, did not have a name. But there were other sections of South Norfolk that didn't have name. There were names, such as Reservoir Park, Reservoir Park West, Munden, M-U-N-D-E-N, South Hill. We went there the other day. Money Point. Now, at that time—	9:05
Blair Murphy	Those were all Black?	9:45
Essie Coker Dozier	Those were, yeah, all Black communities. I think that's about all, because a private area may have been Norfolk County.	9:46
Blair Murphy	Which is now Chesapeake.	9:58
Essie Coker Dozier	Chesapeake. All of it is now Chesapeake. As a matter of fact, South Hill at the time, was Norfolk County. Remember Mrs. Danika? So this was Norfolk County.	9:59
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	10:10
Essie Coker Dozier	So that was really not a part of my community, was not a part of South Norfolk. But West London may have been, Reservoir Park definitely was, those communities.	10:11
Blair Murphy	Okay. So you said St. James was the—	10:24
Essie Coker Dozier	St. James Street. I lived on St. James Street.	10:26
Blair Murphy	Okay. And you said that was the focal point of the-	10:28
Essie Coker Dozier	Of the community, I believe.	10:29
Blair Murphy	Why was that the focal point?	10:29
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, it was on the outer edge of the community. The community may have been maybe four blocks deep. And it went the length of St. James Street and maybe a little bit beyond the length of St. James Street. But I think if you were giving anyone directions to get to that area, it would be St. James Street, which was one block behind Liberty Street.	10:33
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	11:04
Essie Coker Dozier	So once one could find Liberty Street, there would be no problem finding St. James Street. And then from St. James Street, the other streets in the community would've been very easy to locate.	11:04
Blair Murphy	So what school did you attend?	11:15
Essie Coker Dozier	At what level?	11:17
Blair Murphy	I guess your first school in South Norfolk?	11:18
Essie Coker Dozier	The first school in South North Norfolk was Waterford Elementary.	11:20
Blair Murphy	Okay. And how far was that from your house?	11:22
Essie Coker Dozier	I don't know offhand. Maybe six to eight blocks away.	11:28
Blair Murphy	Okay. And did you walk?	11:33
Essie Coker Dozier	We walked, yeah. We walked through the end of our community, through a White business area, through a White residential area, and then a Black residential area to get there.	11:35
Blair Murphy	And you remember about that school?	11:52
Essie Coker Dozier	About Waterford?	11:53
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	11:53
Essie Coker Dozier	It was a nice school. I do remember that. The teachers were very caring. They were strict, but loving. And they saw to it that we did what we were supposed to do. That we got our lesson. They taught very well, I think for the limited resources they had. I didn't know then that they were limited. I do know now, but I remember maybe getting tired of reading the same books all the time. We didn't have a variety of readings and books. And there was no library. There was a room with a few books and bookcases, but there was no library. And we didn't know what it was to use it. That was a small school with eight classrooms, therefore there were eight teachers, including the principal.	12:01
Essie Coker Dozier	The principal, Ms. Daisy Wilson, taught all day. And there was a cafeteria in the basement on one side. And the ballroom equipment, I think was in the basement on the opposite side.	12:59
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	13:13
Essie Coker Dozier	The school that exists in that area now, is called Edwards Wilson, it was named for two teachers who taught there for many, many years.	13:14
Blair Murphy	Okay. So was the community of South Norfolk considered urban—	13:31
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah.	13:35
Blair Murphy	—at the time?	13:35
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah, it was.	13:36
Blair Murphy	It was urban.	13:36
Essie Coker Dozier	South Norfolk was a first class town, first class city maybe. And historically, it was quite old. And I think it was in 1963, it became a part of Chesapeake. But what was South Norfolk with many, many towns—not towns, but sections such as Reservoir Park and like that, became Chesapeake, became a part of Chesapeake, with the major part of Old South Norfolk, still being called South Norfolk. Of course, we still refer to West London and Reservoir Park and some of the other areas in there. There's some newer communities. And one of those would be called Cloverdale, is a community and sections like that, that are part of what is now Chesapeake.	13:37
Blair Murphy	So was there a big difference from moving out of North Carolina into South Norfolk?	14:35
Essie Coker Dozier	Yes, in a way there was, because, well, it was in the country and we did walk two miles a day to school. And which in the summertime was very, very hot. And the wintertime was very, very cold. And we walked down 301 highway, US 301, which is the main east, west thoroughfare. And not only for cars, but also for those big, old transfer trucks that in the wintertime, those big trucks would pass by us. They'd blow the coldest air. But we enjoyed that same breeze in the summertime. So we took the bitters with sweets.	14:43
Blair Murphy	Was there a things that you remember about moving, that you were surprised about?	15:28
Speaker 1	Hi.	15:36
Essie Coker Dozier	Hi.	15:36
Speaker 1	Hello.	15:36
Essie Coker Dozier	Hello.	15:38
Speaker 1	[INTERRUPTION 00:15:40].	15:38
Essie Coker Dozier	I think some of the main differences in the school, where I went in North Carolina and when I attended in South Norfolk, probably was size. And ordinarily, one would think that a school in the city would be larger than a school in the country. But I suppose the school in the country was a regional one, people came from a long ways around. So therefore, the school was much larger than the eight room school that I attended in Chesapeake, in Old South Norfolk.	15:41
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	16:18
Essie Coker Dozier	It was larger, because there were students from all over the county, and I think it housed grades one through 12.	16:19
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	16:23
Essie Coker Dozier	Compared to the eight room school, which only grades one through eight.	16:26
Blair Murphy	So did you enjoy the changes?	16:32
Essie Coker Dozier	I did. I enjoyed the changes and I liked both. Enjoyed the change to the city school in South Norfolk, does not mean that I didn't like the school in North Carolina, because I did.	16:35
Blair Murphy	So were there any teachers that you admired a lot when you-	16:47
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, I can't really—For the first few years of school, I don't know if I ever had a teacher that I didn't like. I liked my teachers. Well, all the way through up to the 12th grade. I can't think of a teacher that I really ever disliked. The first four years of school were in North Carolina. And of the teachers there that I had, I do believe that two of them were relatives by blood. And one was a relative by Marriage, married a cousin. So I had a lot of family teaching me in North Carolina. And those who were not family were close, close friends of my family. So it was still like family, but I was not spoiled by them.	16:54
Blair Murphy	So how many brothers and sisters did you have?	17:49
Essie Coker Dozier	I have one sister and three brothers. There were five in my family.	17:52
Blair Murphy	Some people have really big—So you went to Waterford first?	17:59
Essie Coker Dozier	Yes.	18:09
Blair Murphy	And then after the eighth grade, you mentioned—	18:10
Essie Coker Dozier	After the eighth grade, I went to Booker T, Washington High School in Norfolk.	18:12
Blair Murphy	Okay. And where was that, was it—	18:17
Essie Coker Dozier	In Norfolk, Virginia.	18:21
Blair Murphy	Okay. So you had to get to Norfolk?	18:25
Essie Coker Dozier	Yes.	18:26
Blair Murphy	How far was that?	18:26
Essie Coker Dozier	A mile? Just far as the mileage is concerned, I don't know. Let me think. Maybe five or six miles away maybe, but a little bit more. I never really thought of it, in terms of a mile. I never did.	18:30
Blair Murphy	Distance.	18:46
Essie Coker Dozier	It'd be easy enough to clock now by car, but I don't know. But it was probably a 45-minute trip by the bus, the street cars and the buses. Because I used both to get there. At one time, I think it was the trolley. Then later on, it became the buses.	18:47
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay. So they had trolleys with the tracks?	19:13
Essie Coker Dozier	Yes, we did. Trolleys with the tracks, with the dolly—	19:16
Blair Murphy	The wires.	19:20
Essie Coker Dozier	—wires, overhead. Those were neat. But we did have those.	19:21
Blair Murphy	So you—	19:28
Essie Coker Dozier	Because they couldn't turn around, what they would do, you know what they did when they would get to the end of the line? The back of the seat would flip to the other side and the driver would take—I think there were bus driver seats at each end of the trolley. And so he would pull his steering wheel up. If he was going this way, sitting at the front of the trolley, when he gets to the end of the line, he would take his steering wheel up, put it and start it on the other end, and then flip the backs of the chairs, so they'd all be facing him, facing his back, rather, because they couldn't turn around.	19:28
Blair Murphy	I think in Philly they had the ones where they could turn, they'd spin it.	20:00
Essie Coker Dozier	Oh, get to the end of then line and then just the—	20:03
Blair Murphy	Spin it around, and come back.	20:05
Essie Coker Dozier	They didn't-	20:05
Blair Murphy	But that both of those things seem difficult.	20:08
Essie Coker Dozier	Difficult. Exactly. Switching about 40 chairs to be sure they all face the same way.	20:09
Blair Murphy	Okay. So you went to Booker T Washington?	20:16
Essie Coker Dozier	Yes.	20:20
Blair Murphy	And so, was that a large school?	20:21
Essie Coker Dozier	That was a large school. It was the only Black school in Norfolk. I think the Whites may have had two schools. Two schools, Mari and Granby High. And the Blacks only had one. That was Booker T.	20:22
Blair Murphy	Okay. So about how many students, if you can remember?	20:38
Essie Coker Dozier	The high school—the building I should say, held the junior high as well as the high school, Booker T Junior High and Booker T High. Separated by the auditorium and the business offices. On one side auditorium was the high school business office and the rest of the high school for three floors up. And on the opposite side of the auditorium was the junior high business office, administrative office and the junior high school. And then the gym served both. Altogether there were more than 2000 students under that one roof.	20:40
Blair Murphy	Okay. So it was kind of a regional school?	21:21
Essie Coker Dozier	It was the only one in the city.	21:25
Blair Murphy	So everybody came from all sides and [indistinct 00:21:30]?	21:26
Essie Coker Dozier	Everybody from Norfolk would go there.	21:26
Blair Murphy	Okay. So what was that like?	21:32
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, it was crowded, rather orderly. Not a lot of disruption and violence, none at all, really. But you only got to know your classmates and then you didn't know all of them. There were people who finished, who graduated in my class. I did not know there were seniors, until we came in for graduate class meetings and whatnot. So it was large. The personal touch, I think may have been missing. But by attending a large school, we were very privileged, I think to be offered a variety of courses. For instance, college prep was what I took in high school. I took the course that Led toward entering college, the chemistry and the geometry, the high math and all of those.	21:37
Blair Murphy	And that was—	22:28
Essie Coker Dozier	Two years of French and [indistinct 00:22:31].	22:28
Blair Murphy	That might not have been available.	22:31
Essie Coker Dozier	In a small school, it would not have been available.	22:33
Blair Murphy	To Black students?	22:35
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly. To Black students, it would not have been available.	22:36
Blair Murphy	And so what was the quality of your books in your library?	22:40
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, at the time I thought it was good, because I didn't have a point by which I could—	22:46
Blair Murphy	Point of reference.	22:53
Essie Coker Dozier	—measure. Right, make a reference. So I thought it was good. But in retrospect, I know now that it probably was not up to par. There was probably no comparison between that library and the ones at the other schools across town. But we were proud to use it and we learned a lot. And from that particular school, some very, very great notable people graduated and became very productive citizens, throughout the United States and the world.	22:55
Essie Coker Dozier	Many people who are doctors now graduated from Booker T., having taken their science classes and science labs, in rooms that had only one microscope, few chemicals. So the professor, the science teacher would use the microscope and would tell us what we would expect to see. And he would use the chemicals, one test tube, one forcep, one Bunsen burner, and would tell us what was being produced and stuff. Not actually having a chance to do it ourselves, because the chemicals were not there. The equipment was not—	23:32
Blair Murphy	I'd rather it had been like that in my high school. (laughs)	24:11
Essie Coker Dozier	Just wasn't there. But still we turned out several productive and notable people.	24:16
Blair Murphy	Chance to be successful.	24:21
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly.	24:22
Blair Murphy	So what was your main interest in high school?	24:26
Essie Coker Dozier	You mean, academically my main interest? I liked the English classes and the social studies classes. That is still evident by what I do now, the classes that I enjoyed the most.	24:31
Blair Murphy	And were there any teachers who you admired, especially?	24:50
Essie Coker Dozier	Oh, quite a few.	24:55
Blair Murphy	Like who?	24:56
Essie Coker Dozier	Ms. Virginia L. Davidson was an English teacher. Very articulate lady. Mr. Roger B Dunjeen, Ms. Lena Dabney and her sister, what is it? Stevenson, Lillian Stevenson. And there was an Edith Smith, a social studies teacher whom I enjoyed, a Mamie Adams, whom I enjoyed. Mr. Albert Carrington was my biology teacher.	24:58
Essie Coker Dozier	Mr. Pool, I think taught me math. He was an excellent teacher. And my French teacher was Ms. James, Serelda James, and her sister was my geometry teacher. I don't know what her first name was, but those were two sisters. Those were probably a few amongst all of my favorite teachers.	25:53
Blair Murphy	And why did you admire these teachers?	26:16
Essie Coker Dozier	Because they were good teachers and they kept the atmosphere exactly right for learning, conducive. The atmosphere was always conducive for learning. They were always willing to answer questions. They were never too busy to listen to you, to answer your questions and explain one more time, if that's what you needed to get through. So that I admire.	26:19
Blair Murphy	And you were talking before about how teachers would we always be put together and nice?	26:48
Essie Coker Dozier	Very well. Very well, unless you see me, I'm sitting at home now, relaxed for the summer. Went to the beauty parlor, but doesn't look like it. But teachers would always pull together, always neatly dressed, always well coordinated. Everything was matched. They, I think thought a lot about their appearances, about the way they looked and the way they talked, this type of thing.	26:52
Blair Murphy	Why do you think that was so important?	27:17
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, it was especially true of teachers, but I think it was true of all Black people. We knew that we—I think as a conversant, had to do more to get the same thing. We also had to look better, in an attempt to get the same thing and go the same place. And you could do your very best, look in a certain way and still may not achieve your mission, but at least you tried. We knew that if we went downtown shopping, and we were not neatly dressed, the clerks wouldn't wait on us. Of course, in my family, neatness wasn't a thing that we had to work hard at doing. Because neatness was the accepted thing—Neatness was the expected thing. So it wasn't that anyone had to tell us, "Dress this way or dress that way or else you would not be respected," because it was just the expected thing that we would do. It was the accepted thing.	27:19
Blair Murphy	Right. So after high school, you went to Central?	28:22
Essie Coker Dozier	After high school, I went to North Division of Virginia State College, for two years. It was a two-year school and was a branch of Virginia State College in Petersburg, which is now Virginia State University. And it did not grant a degree, it only just gave you certificate of admission for having gone there two years. And from there, I went to North Carolina Central, did my junior and senior years at North Carolina.	28:28
Blair Murphy	So why did you choose to go to Central?	28:56
Essie Coker Dozier	Because I really wanted to go. Personally, I wanted to go. And then North Carolina Central was more or less the college of my family. So many people in my family went to school at North Carolina Central. I think I was probably the second generation in my family to go to North Carolina Central. And so there were several in the generation ahead of me, and quite a few within my generation who went to North Carolina Central.	28:59
Blair Murphy	And so what'd you study when you got to Central?	29:33
Essie Coker Dozier	Social Studies. Social science, I think it was called. And library science and English.	29:38
Blair Murphy	Okay. I interviewed a woman named Dr. Ila Blue. Did you have her?	29:47
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. I remember Ms. Blue. I sure do. She wasn't a PhD then. Of course, it has been many years. She is now.	29:53
Blair Murphy	She was our first interviewee.	29:59
Essie Coker Dozier	Is that right? In Durham?	30:03
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	30:05
Essie Coker Dozier	Very good.	30:06
Blair Murphy	So what was Durham like? So that was in the '50s.	30:12
Essie Coker Dozier	Durham. That was in the '50s. Durham was a very nice town. It was a very beautiful town. I think the Black families were very prosperous and lived very well there. And well, I guess Durham had a lot to offer economically, with the college there. And then the tobacco companies and the insurance companies. So there were a lot of really nice places, where Blacks could earn decent livings and decent incomes. And they lived in beautiful homes. It's really nice. But typical of all other towns during that era, it was a highly segregated town, highly segregated.	30:16
Blair Murphy	So the students had to operate just within the Black community?	31:02
Essie Coker Dozier	Mainly within the Black one. I don't ever remember going to a movie theater in Durham. So I don't know what it was like. We probably would've been sitting in a peanut gallery, balcony another word for that, but I'm not sure.	31:07
Blair Murphy	But they were Black movie theaters in Norfolk?	31:25
Essie Coker Dozier	Yes.	31:28
Blair Murphy	Well, Black attended. It wasn't necessarily Black owned. Were they Black owned?	31:28
Essie Coker Dozier	I don't know if they were Black owned. And I don't think they were Black owned, but totally Black attended. For instance, in Berkeley section of Norfolk, there were three Black theaters, all within two blocks of each other, that remained open seven days a week, from one o'clock in the afternoon to 11:00 at night. And they were full much to the—I'm not just certain how many people, there were Black people, how many Black people that were, who lived in Berkeley. And a lot of people from South Norfolk come and go to the movies too. But that was just one section of Norfolk. Berkeley was not a city. Berkeley was a section of Norfolk—	31:34
Blair Murphy	Of Norfolk.	32:17
Essie Coker Dozier	—and it supported three Black movies. And of course in Norfolk, there were several. I know there was the Booker T Theater and I don't know what the others were, but there were probably two or three in Norfolk. But then Norfolk was a city, and Brooklyn was-	32:18
Blair Murphy	On Church Street?	32:34
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah, they're all on Church Street. So it stands to reason, by calculating what I've just said, there were probably five or six Black theaters in Norfolk. If we count Berkeley as part of them.	32:34
Blair Murphy	So it was a large Black community in Norfolk?	32:50
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm.	32:54
Blair Murphy	Do you know what percentage of it?	32:54
Essie Coker Dozier	I don't. We could probably come up with those figures, before you leave. I'll tell you, Mr. Horace Downer would know that. Are you going to speak with him?	32:57
Blair Murphy	I'm not sure.	33:05
Essie Coker Dozier	For the Chronicle?	33:06
Blair Murphy	But there was a business district as well in Berkeley?	33:11
Essie Coker Dozier	Oh yes, there was a business district in Berkeley. Let me tell you about some of the businesses that were there. In later years, there was one Black drugstore. That drugstore opened up in the '40s. And he remained open until maybe the late '80s, or maybe early '90s. And all together, I think there were maybe about five drug stores open all day, every day in Berkeley. There were two, five and 10 cents. Remember what people used to call five and 10 cent stores?	33:16
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	33:59
Essie Coker Dozier	There were two of those, that operated full-time, several cleaners, shoe repair shops, grocery stores, fish market. Now the fish market was Black owned. The shoe repair was Black owned. The several dry cleaners, which were maybe three or four of them, were Black owned. There were too many beauty shops to count. Too many barbershops to count. Of course, I think Mr. Welsh had probably the most prominent barbershop at the time. And there were little eateries, hotdog stands and restaurants and this type of thing. Of course, there were other business that were owned by Jews, and some by Chinese. The Chinese had restaurants and this type of thing in there. But there were about five, six, maybe seven blocks of businesses, which were Black owned.	34:00
Blair Murphy	So there was kind of a room for opportunity for Black business in Norfolk?	35:03
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah, definitely room for Black, for room for opportunity.	35:07
Blair Murphy	So most of the Black community in Norfolk was the Naval and commerce. And they started with the defense.	35:14
Essie Coker Dozier	What, for Black people?	35:26
Blair Murphy	For Black people. Did it start with the draw to the area?	35:28
Essie Coker Dozier	Are you asking what drew people here—	35:33
Blair Murphy	Yeah, what industries?	35:35
Essie Coker Dozier	Oh, the military.	35:36
Blair Murphy	The military.	35:36
Essie Coker Dozier	The military and the defense plants. My dad came down as a defense worker, came here and he worked in a defense plant.	35:38
Blair Murphy	So that's what most people came for?	35:47
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah, exactly.	35:50
Blair Murphy	In the '40s, I guess?	35:52
Essie Coker Dozier	In the '40s.	35:52
Blair Murphy	So after the war, people still—	35:56
Essie Coker Dozier	After the war, a lot of people stayed. Now we stayed, of course, we had good reasons to stay, because when Daddy came down in December of '41, January, maybe '41, six months later, daddy moved us down into a house that he had purchased. So he was a hard worker. So he came down here with, I don't know how many dollars, a few dollars, probably less than $10 in his pocket. He got the defense job and came back in June, after school closed and moved us down as a family.	35:59
Essie Coker Dozier	Packed up the truck, all our belongings and moved us down. But when we came here, we went into a home that he was buying for us. So we were fortunate. We were very fortunate.	36:38
Blair Murphy	Was that unusual?	36:52
Essie Coker Dozier	To buy a house as quickly as that, yes. Many people just rented for a long time, and we didn't. I think we were a very fortunate family. I might add this too. We talked about the crops and vegetables, whatnot, that were produced on the farm during the depression, because that's what it was. And up until the '40s, my grandfather just—Well, we produced everything we needed to eat, canned. A lot of it was canned and preserved and pickled, this type of thing. And I think he sold some of the produce. And a lot of it, he just gave away. I remember people riding up to my grandfather's farm on little wagons, double wagons or single wagons.	36:55
Essie Coker Dozier	Now a single wagon is one pulled by one horse. A double wagon is one that's pulled by two horses. Stands to reason. It's larger. And sometimes men would just ride up with empty burlap bags and said, "Aunt Sis," referring to my grand mama, or, "Miss Coca," or, "Uncle Press," or, "Mr. Coca." My mama said, "Do you have any cabbage vegetables or whatever?" And somebody would go out to the garden and load up a burlap bag, full of vegetables.	37:45
Essie Coker Dozier	And they figured that if you needed some cabbage and meat, something that that's to go along with it. So he would throw in potatoes and corn and then he would tell my grandmother, or one of my aunts, or my mother to go in the smokehouse and get a piece of meat, and wrap it up and threw it in the bag. And send people back home with full-fledged meals. He used to give away gallons of milk a day to people around.	38:16
Essie Coker Dozier	It was a very unfortunate family that lived near us. It wasn't a Black family, but it didn't matter to my grandfather, because it was a family in need. And we fed them, as long as I can remember that they lived there. I can't think of much that they would have bought from the store, because so much of it came from my grandfather's farm. And that's the way he was.	38:45
Blair Murphy	Do you know how he came to be—	39:09
Essie Coker Dozier	That way?	39:10
Blair Murphy	Yeah. Looked at [indistinct 00:39:12]—	39:11
Essie Coker Dozier	Do you know, I don't know. Except that he was a very kind person. He was a very loving person. And I think my dad was a lot like him. Daddy was just well-liked and well-loved. I knew that. But I didn't know how much, until when he died. We had one funeral service here, with another one in North Carolina. He was buried in North Carolina at our church cemetery. And here, even though we'd been here since the '40s and he died in '75, we were not from here. But most people did not know that. But we were not from the Norfolk area. And when we drove from here that morning, to go to North Carolina, there were—I remember, because I counted, 33 cars and we carried from Norfolk back to North Carolina, to bury my daddy.	39:16
Essie Coker Dozier	And of course, there were dozens of them in North Carolina, because that was our hometown. There were so many friends there, as well as relatives. But I don't know where he got—It must have been a natural thing, because daddy was the same way. And I'm a lot like it too. I just don't have the farm to give, to produce the [indistinct 00:40:37] thing. But I would help anybody who is standing in that position.	40:18
Blair Murphy	And you were talking before about how important the church was too.	40:44
Essie Coker Dozier	That's where we were, right.	40:48
Blair Murphy	So what Denomination—	40:51
Essie Coker Dozier	Baptist. The church was very important, I think, to community life. It was a country church, a beautiful country church. I have a picture of the church, which I will share with you. It's on a church program. And then I have a plate, with a picture of the church on a plate. I'll share all those with you. But it was a beautiful, beautiful country church, not a big one.	40:51
Blair Murphy	What was the name of it?	41:18
Essie Coker Dozier	Roanoke Salem Baptist Church. This church was the focal point of, not only religious life, but social life to the point that you knew when you went to church, you were going to see somebody you hadn't seen in a week, or two weeks, or several months, or somebody who was back home on vacation, or back home for the holiday. That you would see these people. And this was very predictable, because there were certain things that happened at given times of the year. For instance, the third week in August was always revival week. So the third Sunday was the kickoff time. And the fourth Sunday was the last service of it. And that's when everybody would try to come back home for the fourth Sunday in August. If you were not there for the whole week of revival services, the fourth Sunday in August was always important.	41:19
Essie Coker Dozier	And going to church meant not only that you would hear great sermons and learn and be taught great lessons. You would also see people that you hadn't seen since the last full Sunday in August, because it was just the homecoming mornings and people did come back home. It was a tradition of the area.	42:17
Essie Coker Dozier	And I do remember in the—Well, Sunday school was important. It was a country church that did not have an 11 o'clock service every Sunday. It had 11 o'clock service, at that time, once a month, which was the fourth Sunday. And of course now it has grown so much. It has services every Sunday. And of course, it has Sunday school, always had Sunday school every Sunday.	42:39
Blair Murphy	What would you do on the other Sundays?	43:01
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, first of all, we always went to Sunday school. And by my moving here when we were 10, I don't remember what we did other Sundays. Well, we went to church, but it was Sunday school. We went to church every Sunday. Now, of course this church now, has church services every Sunday. We started recently, but until that time, they would go to other churches.	43:04
Blair Murphy	On the off weeks?	43:29
Essie Coker Dozier	There were a lot of churches in the community. Right. And there were other churches that had service, say maybe every first Sunday, still another every second. Still another every third. And so the people there found churches to go to every—	43:30
Blair Murphy	So you'd just rotate?.	43:43
Essie Coker Dozier	Rotate, right.	43:44
Blair Murphy	And people would come to your church.	43:45
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly. Right.	43:46
Blair Murphy	So when you say it was very social, it was social with the homecoming, was it social in different way as well?	43:50
Essie Coker Dozier	It was social from a religious standpoint, because—Well, it was like a homecoming, because you knew that every third Sunday through the week and until the fourth Sunday, you would see people. People passing on vacations, people from the big cities who went to Washington and towns and cities in New Jersey and New York, Pennsylvania, this was their homecoming. They would plan their vacations around the third week in August and would come back home for that. Social from that standpoint. And the same thing was true for the fourth Sunday in September, because that was the baptizing. That was another big homecoming. And of course everybody came back.	43:59
Blair Murphy	So fourth Sunday in September?	44:43
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. It was the baptizing. So that type of religious sociability and camaraderie took place there.	44:44
Blair Murphy	And was there also kind of looking out for the families, who maybe didn't have as much?	45:03
Essie Coker Dozier	Always. Yeah, that was a very important part of it. I don't think any families really suffered, because I remember hearing, "Well, Sister and so needs this and needs that. A widow this person," and they were always taken care of. I remember hearing that, those needs expressed and fulfilled.	45:08
Blair Murphy	So where'd you go to church when your family got to Norfolk?	45:33
Essie Coker Dozier	Our entire family joined First Baptist, Berkeley. Berkeley Avenue.	45:37
Blair Murphy	And what was that like?	45:43
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, a lot like our church in North Carolina, because we had good ministers. We didn't look like a country church and we didn't sound like a country church. It was just nice. And one thing the church here had, that we didn't have in North Carolina was an organ. I thought the organ music at our church was just so beautiful. Of course we had one or two pianos at our church in North Carolina, but we didn't have an organ. So that was a big change. And there were-	45:46
Blair Murphy	Was it a pipe organ?	46:17
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. The pipe organ.	46:18
Blair Murphy	With the pipes in the—	46:25
Essie Coker Dozier	Pipe organ, right.	46:25
Blair Murphy	—in the back and the front? I love those.	46:25
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah. So we had a pipe organ there and I think it was a baby grand piano at—	46:27

Blair Murphy	Okay.	0:01
Essie Coker Dozier	And we would go back to church some Sunday evenings to a youth group. I forgot what it was called. We had a youth group at our church in North Carolina called BYPU. Was that it? Baptist Young People's Union, I think that's what it was, and we were just referred to as BYPU. And of course, once we moved to Norfolk, we were in church several times a week for one thing or another, mainly rehearsals for the junior choirs and my brothers for the Boy Scouts and for things like that, the Y, and Bible school in the summer. It was busy along that line.	0:02
Blair Murphy	So a lot of your social life as a young person centered around the church?	0:51
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. Yep.	0:55
Blair Murphy	You sang in the choir?	0:58
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah, I did. Right. I might add this. In high school, I was one of the reporters for the high school newspaper, which was the Clarion.	1:00
Blair Murphy	Okay.	1:09
Essie Coker Dozier	I was an editor, of what? What was I an editor of? Forgot. But I was an activities reporter, I guess. I forgot the title, but I used to report on the assemblies that were held. I loved that because I got to go to all of the assemblies that were held in the auditorium. They had special events like guest stars. If a major artist appeared in Norfolk, they would always give us a brief concert, a jam session if it was a band and a concert if it were a person, back in that auditorium, free and no cost to us.	1:10
Blair Murphy	Okay. So, what types of people did you see?	1:53
Essie Coker Dozier	Right now, I can't even—	1:57
Blair Murphy	Can't think of anyone?	1:59
Essie Coker Dozier	I can't even think of the names of them. I really can't. But there were some band leaders who would come back. I'm going to have to ask Clarice about that. Maybe her memory's better than mine, because she and I saw the same thing, but we couldn't wait to—If it was a jam session with a band, it was held in the gym. If it was someone who sang or played the piano, then it was in the auditorium. I do remember one. This was one of the greatest thrills of my life. Paul Robeson performed in Norfolk, and he gave us a concert the next day at Booker T. That was a thrill. I enjoyed it.	1:59
Blair Murphy	Yeah. You remember what year that might've been? If you don't, don't worry.	2:54
Essie Coker Dozier	Probably '48, '49.	2:54
Blair Murphy	That must've been something.	2:54
Essie Coker Dozier	It was. It was. He was the only person I ever heard sing who cupped his ear. And when you do that, you hear how you sound to other people. Okay. You could try it right now and talk to me, your very next question. You ask me a question and you will see that you don't sound-	2:54
Blair Murphy	Quite the same, like I probably sound on this tape.	3:17
Essie Coker Dozier	Right.	3:19
Blair Murphy	I hate how I sound on the tape.	3:20
Essie Coker Dozier	He would sing and put his hand to his ear, and I wanted to know why and somebody explained, "Because he hears himself the same way the audience does." There's a difference in the sound. That's something I learned from listening to Paul Robeson sing that I've never forgotten.	3:24
Blair Murphy	Right. I wanted to ask you about the Black newspaper in Norfolk if you remember that any.	3:38
Essie Coker Dozier	Okay. I do remember it was called the Norfolk Journal and Guide—	3:44
Blair Murphy	Journal and Guide.	3:47
Essie Coker Dozier	—at that time. It was owned by the P.B. Young family. They started it in 1900, according to reports. They owned it up until relatively recently. I think it just had two owners since the one was Reverend Milton Reed, and of course, now it's Ms. Brenda Andrews. I'd have to go back and look at some dates to see. Okay.	3:47
Blair Murphy	But do you remember reading it?	4:18
Essie Coker Dozier	I remember reading the Journal and Guide before we came to Norfolk.	4:22
Blair Murphy	Because it had a wide circulation.	4:25
Essie Coker Dozier	We subscribed to it in Norfolk. We subscribed to it in North Carolina on the farm. It came to us on the farm. I was from a very fortunate family. We were well-read. We were literate, educated, so we subscribed to the Raleigh News & Observer. That came to us each day by mail, and The Virginian-Pilot came by mail. Not The Virginian-Pilot, The Ledger-Star. Turn that off.	4:26
Blair Murphy	You read all those different newspapers?	5:00
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm.	5:03
Blair Murphy	What types of things do you remember reading about in the Black newspaper even in North Carolina?	5:04
Essie Coker Dozier	I don't know what I remember at 10.	5:17
Blair Murphy	I mean, even once you were—	5:25
Essie Coker Dozier	Young lady, you talk about 50 years ago.	5:25
Blair Murphy	I mean, even once you got to Norfolk, what was important in the news?	5:26
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, after I got to Norfolk, I could kind of relate to the paper a lot because a lot of the things that took place here, I could relate to the section of town where they took place. Of course, our main source for the daily news-	5:33
Blair Murphy	Daily news.	5:51
Essie Coker Dozier	—was not the Journal and Guide. It was mainly the Black News, and that was the one area, the one newspaper where we could go to find out what happened in the high school basketball game the weekend before, the basketball or the football the week before, because the White papers did not publish our results of games. So we had to wait a week to listen to the radio or have someone tell you if you did not attend. That much was different. At least we saw it and we read about-	5:51
Blair Murphy	So, it was local and as well as national.	6:23
Essie Coker Dozier	As national, exactly. We read about important Black people in the arts as well as those who were historically important otherwise. Something about important Black people appeared in the Journal and Guide every week. And right now, I think it has a chronological-type thing on this date in history. It tells what happened so many years ago.	6:25
Blair Murphy	Subsequently.	6:54
Essie Coker Dozier	Right. But it was a very important literary force in the Tidewater area and in my family life that we read it all the time.	6:55
Blair Murphy	Even in a smaller community like yours in North Carolina, you knew about what people were doing.	7:07
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah. And we knew about Black newspapers because we subscribed. Now, though we were in North Carolina a hundred miles away from Norfolk, we subscribed to the Norfolk Journal and Guide.	7:13
Blair Murphy	So there was an understanding of a larger Black community even in places that may not have been close to urban centers.	7:21
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly. We just kept up a lot with what was going on economically and socially, politically in Norfolk through the Norfolk paper. Moving to Norfolk, well, we continued to read the Guide. We did not begin to read the Guide when we moved to Norfolk. It was a continuation of, because—	7:31
Blair Murphy	It was just getting closer to that news that you were reading about.	7:52
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly, right. We continued to read it rather than beginning to read it. Right.	7:54
Blair Murphy	Okay. I was talking to you before about going to Central.	8:03
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah. Let's get back to that. Well, when I arrived at Central, I just thought it was the most beautiful campus I'd ever seen, and I still think that it's a very beautiful-	8:04
Blair Murphy	It's really nice there.	8:19
Essie Coker Dozier	It is a very, very beautiful place. I stayed there two years, but because I changed my major. I added a major. I didn't change, I added. I had double. I graduated with a double major and double minor. I graduated in summer school after my class did, but it was worth it. I didn't think that was bad because I switched school from one state to another, and changed and added a major, and still basically graduated in two years and, what, six weeks exactly.	8:19
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	8:59
Essie Coker Dozier	Six or eight weeks. It was a lot of hard work, but when I graduated from college, I knew I was going to get a job. I was so confident because I could do so many things. My certificate, which is granted by the state departments of education, depending on whatever state your in, so my certificate stated factually that I was qualified to teach social studies, that I was qualified to serve as a librarian, grades, it said one through 12, but now my most recent certificate says K through 12. And to teach English, French, and science. Those were my qualifications with a bachelor's degree. I knew I was not going to want for a job, and I did not. I really did receive my first job and sign the contract that summer, and I still had two or three more weeks to go before actually finishing all my credits. But I had signed a contract even before that.	9:00
Blair Murphy	Where'd you go to work?	10:18
Essie Coker Dozier	My first job was in Danville, Virginia.	10:19
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay. Right down the road from Charlottesville.	10:23
Essie Coker Dozier	Hmm?	10:23
Blair Murphy	Right down the road from Charlottesville.	10:23
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly.	10:25
Blair Murphy	And when was that from?	10:27
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, it was—	10:28
Blair Murphy	So what year was it?	10:30
Essie Coker Dozier	That was '54, fall of '54. I lived across the street from the school where I worked. I lived on Westmoreland Avenue. The school was Westmoreland Elementary School, and there were two buildings. I think the one building held the primary grades, and probably the building in which I worked was probably fifth through eighth grades, probably. And of course, the high school, which was Langston, was on the same campus. We could just walk through the back and get from one building to another. The cafeteria at Langston was the cafeteria for those three buildings, so it really was the cafeteria for grades one through 12.	10:31
Blair Murphy	Okay.	11:18
Essie Coker Dozier	It was a different town. It was a tobacco town, and in the fall the aroma of tobacco just permeated, same as in Durham. (both laugh) In Winston-Salem, it's the same way too. So there was tobacco everywhere. And it was so strange, during that time when I was a little girl, banks closed I think at 12:00 or 1:00. They didn't stay open the way they do now, and they would open on Saturday morning from 9:00 to 12:00 and that was it. Being in Danville was the first time I'd ever seen banks that open until the evening, but I found out—See, I went there in the fall, which means tobacco crops were coming off. And I said, "Gee, banks stay open here until evening, just like stores." But it was only during tobacco season.	11:24
Blair Murphy	So it was really run by the tobacco. That was the main—	12:21
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. Because a lot of trading was done with the tobacco, a lot of selling, and they just had to—	12:25
Blair Murphy	Stay open.	12:29
Essie Coker Dozier	—stay open. But it was only during tobacco season when they did that.	12:29
Blair Murphy	Okay. So that was a segregated school that you taught at?	12:34
Essie Coker Dozier	It was. I never saw anybody White in that building, never. That's the truth.	12:36
Blair Murphy	And what were you teaching?	12:42
Essie Coker Dozier	I was a librarian.	12:44
Blair Murphy	Oh, you were the librarian. Okay.	12:44
Essie Coker Dozier	Yep. Began my career as a librarian and ended my career as a librarian. I did teach for three years, two or three years in between. I taught, I think it was eighth grade science and social science.	12:44
Blair Murphy	Then most of your time was spent as a librarian?	13:09
Essie Coker Dozier	All the rest of it.	13:09
Blair Murphy	What was the racial relations in Danville, what were they like?	13:16
Essie Coker Dozier	I think the movie theater was a balcony. Blacks sat in the balcony upstairs. I've heard so many people say, "You couldn't try on clothes," but I think we could try on clothes. You could buy anything in Danville as far as the clothes was concerned, your money would allow you, that you could afford to buy. I don't think there was any place to go in Danville, so a group of us would get together on Saturday evening and ride into Greensboro and shop, and stay over for a few hours, and then drive back to Danville. That was the closest. I think it was just about 40 miles away. It was very close. Then I would come home once a month. Yeah, I enjoyed that.	13:24
Blair Murphy	Was it more to do in Norfolk than there was in Danville?	14:22
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. There was.	14:27
Blair Murphy	Norfolk was more, huh?	14:28
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, it was more metropolitan than Danville. Danville was a nice town and not small by any means, but there just wasn't—	14:31
Blair Murphy	As much. Were there ever any, I guess in Norfolk or in Danville, any racial conflicts, any problems that you knew of?	14:46
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, in Danville, there were some—Maybe I should start with Norfolk. I don't remember any serious racial conflicts. However, this is not to say that I did not realize that racism existed, racists existed, very much alive and well. I was fully aware of that, but-	14:59
Blair Murphy	How was the racism communicated to you?	15:27
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, there was one incident of, and maybe even more than one, water being splashed on us. I've told this story before. We would be standing out sometimes to catch the bus to go to school, and this car would come along after maybe a hard rain. And the gutters didn't drain off the water that well, so the water may have been up to the curb because it couldn't go into the guttering fast enough. The car would be riding along, and then when it'd get near, it would swerve over very quickly and get in the water, splash the water. We'd be standing out neatly dressed to go to school, which meant we would never go to school like that. So it meant going back home to change clothes and possibly to being late, this kind of thing. That was one that I remember as a one-on-one incident.	15:31
Essie Coker Dozier	What were some of the others? Well, I knew I could not go to their schools. One that remains very vivid in my memory, we lived two blocks from a White school, very large, impressive, two or three buildings three-story high, White school. I could look out my bedroom window and see the school, the roof of the school, yet we walked by that school, past that school to six or seven blocks away to a Black school, to Waterford. I didn't think it was right. But by the same token, when we lived in North Carolina, we walked two miles to school. And there was a White family who lived on a farm beyond ours farther back, but we could see their house.	16:29
Essie Coker Dozier	The two children whom I remember going to school during that time never walked to path to get out to the highway to go to school. They always rode the bus. John was a student. During that time, North Carolina allowed students of legal age to drive buses to school. So he and his sister always got on the bus every morning in his front yard to ride past us and go to school, and we walked in the cold, in the rain, all kinds of weather. So incidents like that would be good to know. We also knew that we could not eat in the restaurants and eateries and shops in Downtown Norfolk.	17:32
Blair Murphy	You couldn't stay in a hotel? Was there a Black hotel?	18:21
Essie Coker Dozier	There was a Black hotel. Bonnie McEachin ran a Black hotel.	18:25
Blair Murphy	But for the most part, when Black people traveled, they stayed with—	18:32
Essie Coker Dozier	Friends and relatives. But I understand that the Black hotel was the only place where business people—Well, mainly business people stayed with other friends, but Black artists such as Duke Ellington and Dinah Washington and Count Basie, when those people came to town, they could stay at the Black hotel. Yeah. But there was no place to accommodate Blacks in hotel housing and lodging as we know it today.	18:35
Blair Murphy	It was just a real sense of racism as opposed to overt acts?	19:17
Essie Coker Dozier	Right. There was one incident that just bothered me. I just thought it was so mean, and yet it was a very small thing. But we had gone to a carnival in South Norfolk. We walked onto the carnival. We're having a nice time, and my sister had bought this huge balloon. It was so pretty, great big old balloon. It was very pretty. She was just very carefully and proudly taking care of it. Now, this White man walked by. He walked by very casually and stood next to us and held his cigarette just like this, like he was just knocking ashes off. And he intentionally touched my sister's balloon, and it burst. He didn't say a thing. He just walked away, and I feel as if it had been an accident, he would've said, "Excuse me," or said something.	19:23
Blair Murphy	He just leaves.	20:29
Essie Coker Dozier	She was so heartbroken. What could we say? What could we do? Nothing. There were a few cases like that. Yep.	20:30
Blair Murphy	And how about in Danville? Was it worse up there?	20:43
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, I'm sure it was worse, except—Well, I probably could've experienced much more in Norfolk, but I don't know. My parents saw to it that we led a very sheltered life. We were sheltered.	20:46
Blair Murphy	You didn't go out to other areas?	21:05
Essie Coker Dozier	Uh-uh. We were very sheltered. Therefore, I think there were a lot of things that we could have come in contact with, but we just didn't come in contact with.	21:09
Blair Murphy	Why do you think they were trying to keep you sheltered?	21:20
Essie Coker Dozier	I think they were protecting us because I'm sure they had bad experiences along this line, and they did not want us to have to experience it, knowing full well that they could not keep us from everything. But then by the same token, they probably felt that they did not want to expose us to everything.	21:25
Blair Murphy	To get your self-esteem up.	21:45
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly, right. We were sheltered. Then by the same token, Danville was a very close-knit community when it came to Black people. They socialized among themselves. The Black middle class socialized among themselves.	21:49
Blair Murphy	So they weren't very welcoming to a newcomer?	22:19
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, I was always welcomed, I guess, just because of the job I had. I got more invitations than I really wanted to take advantage of. I think that's the way it was in Danville, that it was a closed middle-class thing. So therefore, they didn't expect that they'd be able to go to a theater and sit or even be admitted to the theater. They made their own entertainment. They would go to other towns. If there was something going on in Greensboro or Durham, they would do things like that.	22:22
Blair Murphy	So they just wouldn't get in situations where they could be insulted?	23:08
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly. Right.	23:12
Blair Murphy	Okay.	23:12
Essie Coker Dozier	I think you might find that that was a tradition in Blacks not only here in Virginia, but all over. Why put yourself in a position when you know you're going to be insulted? So you refrain from that.	23:13
Blair Murphy	Which I guess led to a stronger community—	23:28
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly.	23:32
Blair Murphy	—to do things on your own.	23:33
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly. A lot of community activities, togetherness and this type of thing.	23:34
Blair Murphy	Because that's what you had.	23:39
Essie Coker Dozier	You're right. You're right. I think the YMCA and the YWCA in Norfolk played very important parts in the lives of young people. I was always active in the YW, and my brothers the YM as well as the Tri-Hi-Y. But I had been active in the YWCA throughout high school. And because I stayed in Norfolk and went to college for two years, I became advisor to a junior group of young ladies who were in the Y.	23:49
Blair Murphy	What types of things did you do?	24:30
Essie Coker Dozier	As far as the Y?	24:33
Blair Murphy	As far as the Y, yeah.	24:34
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, we'd have our regular meetings. We would have all these little nice culture things, like teas. We would have debutante affairs, and speakers would come in and talk to us. These may have been ladies from Norfolk, or even men sometimes from Norfolk would come in and from other places. We made trips, went on different trips and excursions.	24:35
Blair Murphy	So it was an expanding your horizons.	25:08
Essie Coker Dozier	Right, exactly. Right.	25:11
Blair Murphy	Did White students have their own?	25:17
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, I'm sure they did because the Y that I belonged to—	25:21
Blair Murphy	Was all Black.	25:24
Essie Coker Dozier	—was a Black facility in a Black community. Right. Of course, there was always the YWCA for Whites in Norfolk, with many more facilities than we had, many more. Yep. What else can we talk about?	25:24
Blair Murphy	I guess I'd like to talk about maybe as being part of a school system, seeing the change or lack of change with desegregation wherever you were teaching at the time.	25:50
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, there were many impressive and outstanding changes. I had worked in a segregated situation from the time I started up until 1970. 1970, I think it was. At that time, I was transferred to Indian River Junior High, which was a White school, predominantly, historically White, and at this time predominantly White. Because Blacks were being entered there, they needed Black faculty members. And I became the first Black librarian at Indian River High School and on junior high.	26:06
Essie Coker Dozier	There were, I think, more problems between the students and the teachers because Black students were afraid, and White students were assertive. And there were major problems, conflicts a lot, punching and fussing and this kind of thing. I think there were probably easier times. What can I say? I can't remember of any conflicts between Black and White family members.	27:06
Blair Murphy	Faculty.	27:37
Essie Coker Dozier	But among the students, there were.	27:39
Blair Murphy	Do you think it was, overall, the push toward desegregation was a positive change? Or what were the negatives and the positive, I guess would be a better way to ask?	27:41
Essie Coker Dozier	The negatives included a loss of historical significance, I think, and balance in the Black community because schools have always been important in Black communities, have always been. And much of the time, it was all we had to hold onto in the community, the Black schools and the Black churches. When the Black schools-	27:55
Blair Murphy	Schools were like a source of pride?	28:24
Essie Coker Dozier	Yes. It was a source of pride. When schools became desegregated, it was always the Black high school that would be, for the most part-	28:26
Blair Murphy	Closed down.	28:42
Essie Coker Dozier	—closed down. Right.	28:42
Blair Murphy	I think they closed down the school in South Hill, where there's a park there now.	28:42
Essie Coker Dozier	They'd rather send a few students out in a community like that into the White community than to have—	28:47
Blair Murphy	Whites come into your school.	28:53
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly.	28:54
Blair Murphy	You think there was a stigma attached?	28:56
Essie Coker Dozier	To?	28:58
Blair Murphy	To the idea of Whites coming to a Black school?	28:58
Essie Coker Dozier	Of course. Oh, yeah.	29:01
Blair Murphy	Even if they had readjusted the faculty, they just wouldn't-	29:05
Essie Coker Dozier	They did not want them in there, in that particular one.	29:09
Blair Murphy	Yeah. Did you know of any where White students went to a Black school?	29:11
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. Well, every school around here is that way now. The Booker T. Washington where I graduated was a Black school. There are White students there now.	29:18
Blair Murphy	Okay.	29:24
Essie Coker Dozier	At Carver, which was totally Black, there are White students there now. All of the Crestwood schools. Yeah, so there are some.	29:25
Blair Murphy	But mostly, it was the other way.	29:44
Essie Coker Dozier	Right. Well, what has happened, okay, there was Crestwood High School, Crestwood Junior High, and Crestwood Elementary. Then the junior high became a middle school, so to speak, I guess. And what was the elementary became a primary. The traditional Black high school became a junior high. That was the way they did it. Booker T. was the only—No, Booker T. did remain a high school in Norfolk. After the marriage of South Waterford becoming part of Chesapeake, there would've been two Black high schools, and neither one remained a high school. Some people may have felt there was a stigma to graduating from a Black school.	29:45
Blair Murphy	They didn't want their kids going there.	30:48
Essie Coker Dozier	Exactly. So let them become junior high and when they graduated, it would be from—	30:51
Blair Murphy	The White school.	30:55
Essie Coker Dozier	Right.	30:55
Blair Murphy	Okay. Were there any other negatives? You said there was a loss of the history?	31:00
Essie Coker Dozier	A loss of pride, I think, among Blacks, I think is what they felt. We don't have much, and you're taking that from us. This was, I think, a consensus among Black students. Because of that, they came angry and afraid. The Whites did not want them there, so they were angry and afraid. I think these are some of the reasons as to why there were so many conflicts between the students.	31:05
Blair Murphy	Yeah. What were some of the positives, I guess?	31:44
Essie Coker Dozier	The positive is that the Black students were exposed to materials and equipment that they had not known before and a larger variety of course offerings. I think those were some of the-	31:44
Blair Murphy	The courses that were available to you.	32:22
Essie Coker Dozier	Right, exactly.	32:22
Blair Murphy	It's just the material gain, I guess, because they would fund the White schools or pay more attention to White schools.	32:22
Essie Coker Dozier	Right. I think that was some of the main ones that impressed me right off. Yeah.	32:36
Blair Murphy	What is that question? Who were the people in your community in Norfolk that were most important to you or that you most admired when you were growing up?	32:53
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, okay. I named-	33:05
Blair Murphy	Your teachers.	33:12
Essie Coker Dozier	I named a lot of teachers. There were some other teachers in elementary school. One was Ms. Edwards, Mila Edwards. Another was Ms. Daisy Wilson, Mrs. Corals. I can't think of her first name. Those were some of my favorite elementary teachers. Of course, I told you about my teachers in North Carolina who were relatives. Who else did I admire in Norfolk? I admired—I named all of them, the P.B. Young family. I really do think I have named them.	33:14
Blair Murphy	You named a lot of people.	34:06
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah, yeah.	34:07
Blair Murphy	Why do you think that you admired them when you were growing up?	34:09
Essie Coker Dozier	Why did I admire them?	34:10
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	34:11
Essie Coker Dozier	Because a lot of them, well, they were very nice people. They were educated. They were cultured. They spoke well, and a lot of them had the qualities that I admired and would emulate. I guess you may say that these were my role models. They were just nice people.	34:11
Blair Murphy	You named a lot of school teachers. You think that's why you were attracted to the school system?	34:45
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, there were a lot of teachers in my family. That's the main thing, the members of my family, especially the ones who were my age and older did, they taught. My family was a major influence in my becoming an educator. And of course, these teachers were too, but my family was primary reason that I became an educator. Of course, admiring these teachers, I think, was based on our family background.	34:56
Essie Coker Dozier	I'd been used to being around a lot of teachers and having them in my family and coming to my mom and dad's house, especially in North Carolina, because we had so many family members there who were. I guess this is the reason I admire them. And another reason that is just as important as that is that I told you I was sheltered, and I stayed home a lot. So I went to school and I saw teachers and, of course, people at the church. That was my exposure.	35:29
Blair Murphy	Those were your options.	35:59
Essie Coker Dozier	Those were my options. You want to know how sheltered I was?	36:03
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	36:10
Essie Coker Dozier	I went to a football game one Friday evening, I suppose it was. And mother and daddy said, "Be home before it gets dark." When the sun was about to go down that fall evening, afternoon, the game was not over, and I was the only little person that you could see tiptoeing out of the ballgame. I was so embarrassed. But mother and daddy said what?	36:13
Blair Murphy	Be home before dark.	36:37
Essie Coker Dozier	Be home before dark, and I was home before dark. I had to wait until Monday to see how the game ended because they didn't put the game scores in the newspaper or on the radio.	36:39
Blair Murphy	I'm going to ask you about, what was health care like here in Norfolk?	37:00
Essie Coker Dozier	Well, I don't think health care in Norfolk was lacking. There were plenty of excellent Black doctors, Black dentists. I don't know if there were Black podiatrists then or not, but there are now. I don't know if there were Black optometrists then, but there are now. But I know when it comes to medical and dental, we didn't have a problem. Of course, there were other optometrists, whether they were Black or White, who did offer excellent care. I think there was a rather prominent Black hospital at the time too, Norfolk Community.	37:05
Blair Murphy	Norfolk Community, you said?	37:48
Essie Coker Dozier	Norfolk Community Hospital.	37:50
Blair Murphy	Did women go to the hospital to have their babies?	37:55
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. Yep. They did. Yeah, Norfolk Community had a maternity ward.	38:05
Blair Murphy	That was at the Black hospital?	38:05
Essie Coker Dozier	Uh-huh. It was. Go on. It's okay.	38:06
Blair Murphy	But in North Carolina, people mostly had midwives?	38:15
Essie Coker Dozier	Yeah, exactly. And in Danville, I never witnessed this, but a lady, one of my coworkers, told me that women did go to the hospital to deliver their babies, but they didn't have a maternity ward. And they didn't have a special delivery room, so there was no privacy when delivering the babies. They just had the baby.	38:18
Blair Murphy	There was a Black hospital in Danville as well?	38:46
Essie Coker Dozier	There was a Black hospital. They just did not have the facilities. Right.	38:49
Blair Murphy	But for the most part, especially here in Norfolk, there were.	39:00
Essie Coker Dozier	There were facilities.	39:03
Blair Murphy	There were facilities and options for health care. So they didn't have to ever go to White doctors?	39:04
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. There were quite a few people who went to White doctors. My family began going to Jewish doctors later on rather than early on. Early on, our doctors were Black and our dentists were Black. I don't say that anybody ever had to go to a White doctor, but there were certainly Black families who did.	39:10
Blair Murphy	But you had the choice.	39:43
Essie Coker Dozier	Sure. Right. Had the choice.	39:44
Blair Murphy	Which is good.	39:46
Essie Coker Dozier	Mm-hmm. Which was great.	39:50
Blair Murphy	Okay.	39:50
Essie Coker Dozier	And there must've been quite a few of them went to White doctors because the White hospitals had segregated areas. Okay. But as an individual and as a member of a Black family, as I said before, we were very fortunate because we just had so much that was expected of us that we lived those expectations. Also, I thought it was very nice to live in an extended family. My mother and dad always lived in the house with my grandparents, my dad's parents. Of course, when my paternal grandfather died, my maternal grandmother moved to Norfolk with us. So until she died, I'd always been in a home with her, and she was just great, great cook.	39:55
Essie Coker Dozier	We didn't eat junk food. Hot biscuits two or three times a day, full-course meals three times a day, and hot dessert, something sweet every day. This is no joke, pie or cake, something sweet every day. And if she just made a plain cake, what you and I would call a plain cake, her old-fashioned term was, "Oh, you like that? That was just a little piece of sweet bread," is what she would call it. They would be so good because it was so rich, had been made with eggs and butter and milk. She was great. My family was great, I think. Right.	40:53
Blair Murphy	Okay, unless there's anything else.	41:40
Essie Coker Dozier	Don't think so.	41:45
Blair Murphy	I asked you all kinds of questions.	41:45
Essie Coker Dozier	You want to ask some more? You got some more?	41:49
Blair Murphy	Nope, I don't think I do.	41:50

Item Info

Title:

Essie Dozier interview recording, 1995 July 17

Date:

July 17, 1995

Creator:

Dozier, Essie Coker

Contributor:

Murphy, Blair

Description:

Name: Essie Coker Dozier; Date of birth: 1931-04-20; Place of birth: 4.20.1931; Occupation(s): librarian; educator; school teacher; Residence: Virginia Beach, VA
Informant ID: 944; Interviewed by: Blair Murphy.

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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RL00170-CS-1299
7e27f3f0-db9d-4d0f-9c96-dd82f592f39c
behindtheveil
19a0ce98-2e57-4fb5-a42c-eb709df00f93
ark:/87924/r4c53s959
19a0ce98-2e57-4fb5-a42c-eb709df00f93

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Essie Dozier interview recording, 1995 July 17

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1. Essie Dozier administrative file, 1995

2. Essie Dozier administrative file, 1995

3. Essie Dozier interview recording, 1995 August 11

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Essie Dozier interview recording, 1995 July 17

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