Willie Tims interview recording, 1995 July 20

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Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, can you tell me when you were born and something about the area community that you grew up in?	0:02
Willie Clyde Tims	I was born on December 7, 1922 in Claiborne Parish, Homer, Louisiana, H-O-M-E-R. And it was a predominantly a Black rural farm community where I was born, and grew up in, and attended the public school. However, my first school experiences were largely at a church school which was not counted in their school records as far as that part of it is concerned.	0:17
Willie Clyde Tims	And then around what you call the rural community one room schools, and then from that to my first enrollment in school, in registered school. Was a much a larger school, but it was still a segregated Black school. And in fact, at that time it was everything was called Colored. School's called Colored and everything that pretty well that was used was label Colored. And course, it was a long ways from the rural community of which that I was born in which was on a farm.	1:06
Willie Clyde Tims	And then my parent moved to the little town of Homer. And of course, the home, and the farm, and rural community that I was born in was on the north side of the little town of Homer, and the school was on the south side. So to get to the main school that I records were counted as being enrolled in school and followed through on was, as I say, on the south side of the town of Homer, so you would have to go through the town to get to the school. And you would have to come back through the town to get back home when I was coming back to the farm. But if I would stop with my parents, then I would stop in town. Because that's where my mother, and of course, I had a stepfather, my stepfather lived.	1:58
Willie Clyde Tims	So that's where most of my schooling was done from. At that time they used to have what you call you would begin a primary grade and then you would get to the first grade. You would go through numbers and ABCs and hand chart they call it. And then from that to the first grade. And by that time, well the grades were running from, and you finished 11th grade. You had 11 grades. You went from 1-6 for elementary and then 7-11 for four years far as high school is concerned.	3:25
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, what did your family do to make a living when you were growing up?	4:21
Willie Clyde Tims	When I was growing up, as I mentioned, great deal of my time and life was spent with on the farm in my grandparents' home because they had a farm, and they farmed. And he had—Well, there were 11 children. They all were not at home at the time that I was born and was on the farm.	4:26
Willie Clyde Tims	And so they not only grew basic crops like cotton, corn, peas, and potatoes, but they grew fruits of all kinds, peaches, apples, plums, pears. And all of this was available. They grew vegetables. They had a garden, but they grew vegetables also far for marketing, for selling. And they grew watermelons, and they also had corn meal that they made corn. And they also grew cane where you had your own syrup, and they would grind cane and make syrup for other people.	4:58
Willie Clyde Tims	And then they also had the a fishery because they had a pond. Well that fish was largely for the community and for the family. And they had the wood yard where they would get wood and they'd sell wood, both for large truck haul into the market as well as for local people as far as in the city of Homer was concerned. And they grew there pretty well. They grew their own cattle and their own hogs, swine. They sold milk, butter, eggs. And they grew horses and mules, and so we had their own livelihood and own life right on the farm.	5:55
Willie Clyde Tims	And of course, my mother having gone to town and living in town, at first she worked a while with a person or family, White family that had a dairy. They sold milk and butter. Of course, during those years they would deliver it. They'd walk deliver. But hers was working in the home. And then during that time she also went to—	6:56
Willie Clyde Tims	She, having completed the eighth grade for what you call eighth grade certificate. For that time they would take the test and teach school. Well, she didn't want to teach school, so she took a beauty course. And so she was doing some like her—The only thing they called it that time, instead of calling the beautician, they said hairdresser. So she dressed hair, and then she'll also worked in the part with an aunt of hers in the restaurant. They called it Cafe, but a restaurant.	7:33
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, it sounds like your grandparents owned the property.	8:24
Willie Clyde Tims	They owned the farm. They owned the farm along with owning a nice size farm as far as that area and time was concerned. They also rented and leased land. So I guess probably they worked in all probably 200 or 300 acres of land along with the land that they owned producing, crops for marketing as well as for the basic crops for living. As I mentioned that they grew quite a bit of cotton and naturally, that was a marketing crop. But also all the other items like the fruits and the vegetables and the timber and these thing, there was also alternative and marketing for extra monies for the family.	8:29
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, had your grandparents always lived in Claiborne Parish?	9:39
Willie Clyde Tims	My great grandparents and particularly I guess on my mother's side, my mother was a maiden name was Tims. And so I didn't like it because my dad, who was a Johnson, didn't stay with my mother. And when I found that out, when I got old enough, I took the name, I used the name Tims which was the maiden name of my mother.	9:45
Willie Clyde Tims	So my mother's parents came from Kansas with a White family, the Evans. They came to Claiborne Parish, and they lived with their her grandparents and some of their brothers and sisters that came with the Evans. And settled in Evans and worked on the Evans farm and place for a long number of years.	10:15
Willie Clyde Tims	My mother's parents, this is where my mother and her sisters and brothers were born in Homer, in Claiborne Parish. And after they lived for a number of years, and then her grandparents when they passed away, which was named her granddaddy was named Parish Tims and her grandmother was Rose Tims. That's who she was named for.	11:01
Willie Clyde Tims	When they died, well then my granddaddy, which is my mother's parent, they bought a place not far from another Black person, which was not far away from where they lived, the community they grew up in and was born in and that they lived not far away. In fact, it wasn't over two miles away. My grandparents bought the farm, and that's where they live, and that's where I was born, and that's the farm that I own now.	11:36
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Reverend Tims, when you were growing up, was there a sense of a Black community in the area that you grew up in?	12:17
Willie Clyde Tims	It was a Black community. It was a Black community, all solid Black community for probably—All of the land wasn't owned by Blacks. There were only few Blacks that owned their land. Most of them were sharecropping. They were working the land for halves or for so much. It was a large Black community. It was—	12:26
Willie Clyde Tims	And then it would cross probably a White community, and then there was another large Black community. So you had many large Black communities, and some of them were larger than others because of the way that Blacks would own land, and purchase land, or help somebody save land, or bring others in to own land to grow the community. And the church was located in the community.	13:05
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, what was the name of the church that you attended?	13:43
Willie Clyde Tims	Now my parents from the grandparent, from my mother's side and the grandparents on that, there were two churches that the family were members of, and they both were Baptist churches. One was called the Rising Star Baptist Church, which was not far away from their home, the Rising Star Baptist Church. And that church is still in existence there.	13:49
Willie Clyde Tims	And then the one that was closest to where my great grandparents, which was my mother's grandparents on her father's side that I was talking about that came from Kansas with the Evans, it was the White Oak Grove Baptist Church. Because my grandparents on my mother's side, my grandmother, which was my mother's mother from her side, her people live close to that church. And my granddad, which was the Tims, his parents lived close to that church. So that was the White Oak Grove. So the largest number of our family of that belonged to the White Oak Grove Church.	14:13
Willie Clyde Tims	And of course, at later years, well then being in town, well then I became a member of what you call the Ebenezer Baptist Church in the city of Homer. But the sense of having a pride as far as the Black community was concerned, naturally, the older person having grown up under that segregation, it was a matter of a survival. And then having that sense of belief that one day it would be better, and it would get away from of the fear that existed, and that the children would be able to be able to develop and grow and go and get beyond that not having those open privileges.	15:09
Willie Clyde Tims	But they didn't spend a lot of time on that you are segregated. You gain that from the teaching as you grew older and as you learn the language of signs and expressions and all, that these are some places you don't go, and things you don't do, and things you don't say. Along with that sense of respect as far as older persons were concerned, you also had that you are by the influence and by the visible overt expressions that you gain that sense of being careful, in how you would express yourself in what you would say and how you would act.	16:16
Paul Ortiz	Careful in the sense of?	17:23
Willie Clyde Tims	In the sense of that you would not act in a way that would not make White persons feel that you didn't know they were White. And at the same time, it was always that, not only from being around adults as to how you conducted yourself or how you acted, but you had to give in an account of where you went, where you were, how'd things go and what did happen. And I perceived earlier this was to see if anything happened in a way that they might would need to be guarded on their guard as to maybe somebody coming to say something or somebody come to do something in a way, like maybe what happened to some families when the kids what we call act like they were not supposed to act in the presence of a White person, that they became angry about or that they disliked.	17:24
Willie Clyde Tims	That sense of fear of knowing that White people thought and saw Black folks as not Black folks or not so much Colored folks that was used I guess sparingly, not from a sense of I guess of respect of intelligence, but it was most of the time the expression that you heard was nigger.	18:56
Willie Clyde Tims	And not always that it wasn't used the person who—children or persons that I would guess that I would say that persons or certain Whites didn't want people who that they got favors from and persons that they feel that they could call upon for certain things that they would use that expression with before. They wouldn't. It was always uncle or aunt or your child or your boy. It was still that you didn't think too much about it until you got older, and then you began to read what it was, and then you could see that as far as the matter of your parents as how their feelings about it, you begin to recognize their real feelings about those expressions and those feelings and all.	19:36
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, what were their real feelings about the expressions?	20:40
Willie Clyde Tims	For my parents when they were older, they recognized that it was a belittle, that it was not giving the respect as a human being or as persons of age, persons of dignity, persons who were ambitious, and who was energetic, who had their own, who made their living, not of equal. And that that's the way that as I got older, I could see that this was the real feeling, the real—And I began to see the expressions on their faces, and I could read that too. Well then some of it, I was old enough to reflect back to a certain age, and could view that same kind of expression that I remember on some of it early.	20:46
Willie Clyde Tims	Sometime you just look at persons when things were said or when it—And so these kind of things that I began to.. Along with the matter of the signs that you would come in contact with, like you couldn't go to this or if you went to doctor, you had a segregated office. You had to go to a separate office. Water fountains you had to—And you didn't get waited on if there was a long line of Whites or most time you didn't get a chance to go a place if there was going to be a number of Whites or that wasn't the time of day that you go. Your people stirred you around and gave you a different time to go see about things.	21:47
Willie Clyde Tims	You didn't go and look at things that if you were going in a store to get things if that was a busy time. These kind of guiding me along and making sure that you were directed in a way that would stir you around the possibility of maybe that would create of cause trouble or a difference of feeling.	22:50
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, what happened when a Black person crossed that divide or that boundary?	23:21
Willie Clyde Tims	Well, different things I guess in different ways. Maybe the person was at some point, depending on what the—For instance, if it was something that somebody had gotten and made expression, well maybe they were struck, or maybe they were kicked, or maybe they were arrested, maybe they were beaten, maybe they were run away from their home. They did run away from their home or leave their family. But as I say, in the larger communities and where you had persons who seem to them like most of those things that they were involved in in making their living and having those things that would cause people to want some favors from them. Maybe they want their garden plowed or they'd want some things done or they would want some fruits or they'd want some vegetables or they'd want watermelons.	23:31
Willie Clyde Tims	And those people, they seemed to show a different kind of attitude. And then from time to time maybe their children would have problem rather some other children that their children would be around. And that would create some difficulty sometime. Because there was still that feeling that for an instance like myself, that I felt that I did have at the time that if some White person, a White kid hit me, well then I was going to get him back. And I guess, I had that feeling of a protection mode from the parent and feeling like that they could take care of anything. Grandparents, I guess more specifically in a sense because they knew some attorneys, and they knew some doctors, and I knew how they treated them and how they would talk with me sometimes and this kind of thing.	24:40
Willie Clyde Tims	But I would run into that because as I got a little older, I'd sold papers like the Pittsburgh Courier, and the Kansas City Call and the Chicago Defender. I sold newspapers, and when they would try to prevent me from selling my papers, we'd fight. These kind of things. But there were others that didn't get away, and that was times when I did have to run. I'd have to get away, and if I was staying up town with Mother, I'd have to go and stay with my granddad out at his place a lot of time and then go from there to school. Number of times when I'd have a fight with a number of kids that would try to bother my papers or try to bother my books or something along that line.	25:37
Paul Ortiz	They would try to steal your papers?	26:15
Willie Clyde Tims	They would try to keep me from selling. They'd try to take my papers or they would—And I figured maybe some older person might've told them, and then there's some that were just being devilish. But there were those that I know that kids that did have fight with White kids, that their parents had to really take them away from their community and out of the Parish and out of the city. And there were adults that I knew that these things happened. Of course, I also knew that there were adults who actually beat up policemen or beat up other Whites when they would try to jump on them or try to make them do things, these kind of things. But it was all coming from the matter of more than say like it was during the early years here where people just getting into fight. It was all largely based on that Black people don't talk to White people that way or they don't—They say, "Yes, sir," and they said, "No, ma'am."	26:16
Paul Ortiz	But occasionally there were Black people who would say, "You crossed the line. I'm not going to put up with this." For instance, you saying, "I'm selling my papers. I'm not stopping."	27:30
Willie Clyde Tims	Yeah. And then there were those who maybe when they would pay bills a lot of time and then they would ask for a receipt. They would say they didn't want this thing because it wasn't right and these kind of things. They would run into problems or troubles and frictions and fights a lot of time with Whites.	27:43
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, was there cases—I've heard in other places about cases where Black farmers would have difficulty sometimes from jealous Whites, especially if a Black farmer owned land—	28:12
Willie Clyde Tims	And they wanted it.	28:28
Paul Ortiz	And they wanted it. Were there cases like that in Claiborne Parish?	28:29
Willie Clyde Tims	There were cases like that in Claiborne Parish. They would actually just to move on over on the land and just take the land or either they would get it mortgaged, or they'd get it into trouble, and then they would wind up having to let their land go to get the money to take care of the problem or pay the bill. There were those who were persons that I was able to know about that they just took the land and just the person just ran the persons off. That was the way that was. They were areas where that did happen. And there were those who at times when they thought they were leasing the land, they were actually selling. These kinds incidents that took place.	28:32
Willie Clyde Tims	And well, there were a lot of conditions that a person would buy land a lot of time or they thought they were buying it and actually land would be, since they were not paying for it cash, they're paying so much a year that they just never got around to paying it out. The land was still in the name of the person or in somebody else's name that belonged to the family or the White business man or farmer that was selling it. And even though he might've paid it, but when he got through, he hadn't paid it. Or they paid it, and they didn't get receipts. And these manipulations and maneuvering that took place.	29:38
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, was there any recourse for Black people through the court system, in Claiborne Parish?	30:49
Willie Clyde Tims	So it was a matter of who you—Those who were read to not have any support or any protection, there wasn't anybody to go to. Because you couldn't go to the sheriff. You couldn't go to an attorney. And so there was no recourse. It wasn't any that—You couldn't have an attorney so you had nobody to take your case. So there was really no what you call no court for those who didn't have any support. Now those who had some support, they really didn't—It didn't get to the court.	30:56
Paul Ortiz	Support as a in?	32:13
Willie Clyde Tims	That is like I said, my granddaddy. He didn't—There were things that I know that as far as their attorney, the lawyers that he did know and that they knew that they could get watermelons and they knew that they could come and get peaches and pears and sometime, if they had the money they would pay or they would maybe other things that they would have. He didn't have to worry about in a matter of a court, if somebody come, just like a lot of time whenever the doctor would come. And doctors made rounds during that time or if you do at the office he didn't bother about collecting because he said, "Well, I'm going to want some watermelon, and I'm going to want some peas." This kind of a thing. If he borrowed money from the bank from time to time, well the bank was going to—So those kind of things I could see when I was real young and early in life.	32:18
Willie Clyde Tims	And there was those things that I said. There was some bad things and then there was some good. I don't say that it took the place of being segregated. It didn't take the place of knowing that you didn't feel that you had the same rights, and yet at the same time I didn't have that real feeling that I was in any real big danger, part of it because I guess I didn't have sense enough to think of it along that line, and the other one was that I just feel like that he could, as far as my grandparents were concerned, my granddad in particular, that he could pretty well take care of anything.	33:39
Willie Clyde Tims	And that grew up, and I began to expand upon my understanding of it and how I understood it then that I didn't understand when I said that I knew he could handle anything, you know what I mean? And I was getting associated with that he knew people that was going to say, "Don't bother," and his name was James Tim, and they called him Jim most of the time. "Don't bother with Jim," and you could hear those things sometime.	34:21
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, did your grandfather ever tell you about experiences that he had growing up or were there some experiences that he had growing up that passed down that?	34:57
Willie Clyde Tims	On?	35:11
Paul Ortiz	On his life, maybe his earlier life?	35:12
Willie Clyde Tims	Well, he had some experiences because he had some uncles and he had a few brothers and some that I didn't get a chance to know or see. More uncles because actually I only remember one of his brothers. But there was uncles and some of those had to leave home because of the troubles that they had with Whites.	35:16
Paul Ortiz	What kind of troubles?	35:50
Willie Clyde Tims	They just felt like that they were big enough and they were men enough to not be talked to like they were boys. And they just didn't—Knowing even though that that was the way that it was almost everywhere and anywhere in the south, they just didn't accept that. And they was all the time, a large number of those all the time on the—They really never grew up there really what you call in Claiborne Parish. By the time when they came to Claiborne Parish, they was more or less on the run by the time they came to Claiborne Parish. And that was, I guess because they came out of the state of Kansas, which probably wasn't as bad as it was down in the Claiborne Parish in Louisiana, and so they couldn't adjust themselves too differently from what they had been in experienced in Kansas. So they didn't stand Claiborne Parish very long.	35:54
Willie Clyde Tims	But he remembered those experiences, and he remembered experiences as well as other friends that persons who things were taken from and who were struck by Whites, and who were made to get down on their knees and who were kicked. He remembered those experiences, and I remember him talking about those at times after I had gotten up. And I could get that sense of that I guess instilling in me to have that sense of value and ownership and listen. And I guess that sense of thinking and thinking through things and looking at things and choice of what is the issue, which isn't a issue. So those kind of values were instilled in me all along, more coming from him and my parent than I guess than all of the teamwork that we had in the matter.	37:04
Willie Clyde Tims	And I guess I can go back to when it says to take a village to raise a child because this is what happened in the Black community is that everywhere you went you had a mother and a father, and you knew those limits and those boundaries because if you went to a home, you had to take corrections just like their children. And if children came to your home from others, they had to take that correction. And you had a big neighborhood to play in, and you had so many things that were going, so many activities.	38:24
Willie Clyde Tims	And I guess that was some of the things that took place as far as the Black community that they generated as far as activities are concerned at the schools and at the church, at the communities during certain times of the year, holiday time, that would keep you occupied along with the work on the farm. And so you earn money and you got money. Add during I guess my time of working on the farm and growing up, my grandparent, from time to time because his farm was large enough that he had persons that were sharecropping with him and working on the farm and lived in houses on the farm.	39:08
Willie Clyde Tims	And sometime those persons, he would agree with those persons and being employed by some White farmers that were not far away to do. And whenever he did do that, if they was chopping cotton or if they was picking cotton or they were doing some other things, few of those things particularly on the farm, most of the time he would be around or I would be there, and I kept the records of what was. And I guess I ran into some problems along that because when I would say the figure was one thing, and they were saying another, he would always come and say that he was going by what I had, and they didn't like that.	40:08
Paul Ortiz	The White people?	40:47
Willie Clyde Tims	Right. But they hardly ever would because they had plenty to do on the land on his farm as well as the farmland that he was leasing and renting and working on. But that were those who did have that. There were other farmers, some other farmers in the community that they worked. Biggest of their work was working for the White farmers. They were working on halves or working on thirds or whatever the agreement was that they was working on. But we were never—I was never hired out to—Well, I do know those that were. They went to pick cotton or went to work for other farmers.	40:50
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, earlier you were talking about that maxim it takes a village to raise a child. I wonder if you could describe your neighborhood for me if people were spread out or the houses were close together or?	41:40
Willie Clyde Tims	No, they were not that close together on the farm areas, you know what I mean? They wasn't like they were in a city or they were not like they were on what you'd call a large plantations where down in that area where that likely would be up probably up in the northeast where they had large tracks of lands or down along the rivers in Mississippi and down in Mississippi and Louisiana areas or some of the other river basin areas. They were not that real close together. They would be maybe for instance you would maybe something like maybe a mile apart across another farm. If they was on that same farm, they would be maybe half mile.	41:58
Willie Clyde Tims	But this would take in a whole community. For an instant, say probably five miles square, you pretty well knew all of the farmers, all the Black farmers and all the children knew each other, and they would be around each other, and this would be more or less the boundaries or if they were going to be around the community going place.	42:57
Willie Clyde Tims	Now if they went, like I did the number of time or like some others, I would come to Arkansas because I had a, my grandmother's sister lived up out from Pine Bluff. And sometime we would catch what they call a little motor that ran on the railroad track. And we'd go up there by train. Or if my aunt that lived not far from here in Magnolia in Columbia County, she had children pretty well my same age along with large number of children that were around in this community. So I would come and sometimes spend the summer, two or three months, or two or three weeks, or they would come down. So these kind of—They would know where you were. So wherever you were, they would know the person who you are with, what they stood for.	43:23
Willie Clyde Tims	And sometime you would have in the areas of the city, not areas of the community in the rural community and the farm community, you would have at that time what they call maybe a honky-tonk, these kind of things. And person would go to those. You'd have problem with those. But I guess in magnitude, it was probably the same weight of the problem that you would have now. But it was not everything that was involved in it. You'd have probably the way they'd have—Maybe they'd have the earlier part of that, they'd probably have where they'd be have made some home brew or they'd have made some wine out of grape or they'd be made maybe some corn liquor. They would have it around and you'd probably have that in some of your communities.	44:24
Willie Clyde Tims	But your parents would know those persons who did handle that kind of thing or do that thing, and they'd stir you along that. That to them was about as dangerous to you as they were in mind of the fact that if White person somebody would have done something and they would get a gang of them together, a group of them together, and they'd come through picking up Blacks and doing things along that line. So you had those two danger elements that parents were mindful of, grandparents were mindful of, your whole community was mindful of, and there were those that would be much more concerned than others.	45:26
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, within that five mile radius where everybody knew each other, what would be—	46:10

Willie Clyde Tims	During certain times of year. Now during work season, like when they were planning season, when the harvest season, these kind of things that everybody was working in school part of the time, areas where that the school was going on and wasn't no broken months of school. You'd have about seven months of school and then it moved up before I got out to what you call your nine months school. But maybe some Saturdays they would probably go to the city.	0:05
Paul Ortiz	Which city?	0:56
Willie Clyde Tims	Homer.	0:57
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	0:57
Willie Clyde Tims	And that's where the community was around. But wherever we were. And then sometime they would maybe play dominoes. They would have maybe a baseball games. Maybe where they had ponds, they would swim and they'd go into the pond. They would fish, they would get on their horses, the mules and they'd have races. Sometimes they'd have the wagon race if they didn't have the—And then there are times when they would maybe see who could lift the most. Lifting bags or lifting weight, these kinds of things. And then there were times when they would have, and of course this was working at the same time, they'd have the log cutting thing, maybe they would have the cotton chopping thing. They'd have the cotton picking thing. These would turn into activities, not only just for work as far as working and getting a bale of cotton or getting the field done, but it was an activity.	0:58
Willie Clyde Tims	And so it had many different things. And so when the seasons was over, well some of them communities in some areas they, they'd have their guitars or then they would have fiddles. They'd have dances. They would make flutes, take a cane and they'd make flutes and make whistles. And then these would turn in—They'd get activities from these kind of things. Or the saint of the baseball teams begin to work in the clubs and name for baseball teams that they would have and organized thing more than just as far as the family's concerned. See the family would have activities and then they got where that it spread to activities that would involve people of that community.	2:42
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, would children participate in activities with adults or would it be adults only then children have their own activities?	3:52
Willie Clyde Tims	Oh, they'd have some activities that children would participate in adult, but most of the time it would be children. The children have their activity and that would depend on especially the younger children and those who had probably gotten up some older that they would maybe like a baseball game and some of the others activities that children would participate with adult. But very seldom that the children would be around even engaging in the conversation with the adults. There was certain things that took place and that would be when you'd have the family prayer and sometime depending on how many, whether you had visitors or anything like that, time when you'd have your lunch or your dinner, your meal.	4:03
Willie Clyde Tims	And those were activities that were expected. The children's and the family, your meals, your breakfast and your dinners and lunch unless it was working time. And if you came home and you had the tables, you ate at the table. Well you did. But if it was you eat out in the field or you eat out and then they'd have picnic. They'd have fish fries and the children would get theirs and sometimes they'd go all together and they'd be around together and then their time when they'd all be together in activity. But most of the time the children were with children and adults were with the adults when they had those adult conversations.	5:01
Willie Clyde Tims	And well the same thing if you went to visit some of the other relatives or you went with some of the other friends off someplace. And of course most of the time if you went off some ways you were with some other relative. And like I said, I came to this community quite a bit when I was growing up as a school years and as a child. And this is one of the communities that influenced a lot of pride in my thinking of activities is because of that what they call the West Black Sox team that they had out here when they had a ballpark out there.	5:50
Willie Clyde Tims	Or the person who owned most of this land crossover and built this community out of relatives and friends and others. And it ran from over there where we turned at what we call the rib house on the other side of the—Ran down the road way down the road below the Walker School and almost all the way back up to the city limits of Magnolia where we ran into that bypass there coming out of town. And almost probably seven, eight miles that way.	6:34
Willie Clyde Tims	It was more than a section of land. It was all in within law Black solid from that place all the way back. It was solid Black. And here he brought people in and he came out of Claiborne Parish. He got in the oil business. But he had land and they found oil on that land.	7:10
Paul Ortiz	A Black landowner?	7:34
Willie Clyde Tims	Oh, yeah.	7:36
Paul Ortiz	Okay. What was his name, sir?	7:37
Willie Clyde Tims	George West.	7:38
Paul Ortiz	George West.	7:38
Willie Clyde Tims	Right. There were two Blacks that got a lot of land and came in the position of oil. And one was named William Bill Chat and the other was George West. And so Chat remained on in Cleveland Parish because he died pretty young too and George West left and came to Arkansas to this area. So he the one that built the park over there and it's worked up a baseball team and it was named the West Black Sox. And he suited it up and outfitted it and they played. And a lot of these persons lived and worked out on the farm out here.	7:40
Willie Clyde Tims	And from time to time between during the lunch period when they would come in for feel that as many of them were together would kind of rehearse a little baseball. And then in the evening times and on Saturdays, and they were good. They were good. They loved and they had pride in that team and all of southern Arkansas and North Louisiana. And then it began to be known right in what you call national.	8:32
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, when did the team start?	9:14
Willie Clyde Tims	I don't remember just when the team start and I'm sure brother George and brother Lotus are going to get that in there because like I said, they were part of the one side of the family of the West.	9:18
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	9:33
Willie Clyde Tims	Because his wife was a Kimber and so that was a part of their family that they came off. So I'm sure they know exactly because they had a lot of relatives that played on the team and because Lotus had a brother that was a catcher on that team. And so I'm sure they're going to get a lot of that in there about that part of it. I just mentioned that when I'd come up here, I knew that I was going to be able to be in the midst of that activity. And then they had several ponds that, and they were going to have fish galore and I could go fishing and I could go in the pond and swim and it was just children and people and they had the horses and ride and you had these kind of things.	9:34
Willie Clyde Tims	But as I said, segregation was the fifth spot more than anything else as far as the general feeling was concerned. But those who were engaged in the activities that we were talking about that gave you that sense of pride and value, it didn't mark anything other than the fact that the books that we got as far as the school's concerned. Now those are the things that we obtained as far as—Because naturally the school, when they all consolidated, when they all merged in and that was happened during some of my years of school is that the Black school was just didn't get the buildings and they didn't get the materials.	10:26
Willie Clyde Tims	I don't know where all of the values would've been brought in as strongly if everything would've been there. I'm not sure. The other part, with the laws as they were and with the situation it was, that couldn't have been a togetherness at that time. But it didn't have to be that we didn't have the books and the material that we had. But I think there was some things that was recognized by those teachers who grew up under the conditions and situations it was that made them emphasize how important it was for us to study hard and to have the life and thoughts and feelings about ourselves.	11:35
Willie Clyde Tims	That it didn't make us any less, any little because we were not permitted to be with the White kids. That we didn't have the books and we didn't have the materials and we didn't have the seats and we didn't have the other resources that we knew that was in the White school.	12:40
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, when did you first begin thinking in terms of a career or a livelihood?	13:05
Willie Clyde Tims	I guess that as old as I can start remembering as I reflect back that this was always kept before me and I guess it was by both my mother and stepfather and also my grandparent I guess I spent a lot of time with my granddaddy going places and doing things and I guess it wasn't hardly anything that he didn't carry me over and involved me in and he would emphasize how important it was.	13:17
Willie Clyde Tims	And he taught me a good lesson very early because I told him I wanted to grow something and so I could get some money for myself off it. And he would emphasize in the object lesson that he gave me was, "You can do it," I'll let you have some land and that's my mules and there's supplies and other things. So when it got all ready for harvest and then gathered, then he brought it to my attention that I owed him for the use of the land and owed him for the use of the mules and the feed and these kind of things.	14:12
Willie Clyde Tims	And when I said, "Well I won't have much left," he said, "That's right. If you want to own more, if you want to get more out of it, then you own more of it." So whatever I was going to be and whatever I wanted to be, then it was necessary for me to think in terms of studying and keeping my eye on it and trying to get it to the point of owning as much of it that I could possibly own to have more. That would be the profit for me. And then the other one was that don't forget to look to God. Don't forget to pray and don't forget to give Him the praise and the glory for your blessings and read everything and because sometimes whenever we were even riding along in the wagon, he would ask me, "What did that billboard say?"	14:54
Willie Clyde Tims	So I got that sense of that it was going to take steady reading, it's going to take listening. Sometimes he would say things and then he'd ask me, "Now, what was that about?" These kind of things. So I started thinking in terms of there were a couple of things and that was I wanted to be an engineer and I wanted to be a pilot. And during the time when I was coming out of high school I wanted to join the Air Force. In fact I was wanted to go at a Tuskegee to be in that 99th pursuit squadron, but parents didn't want me to go away. And then I wanted to go away to Dearborn, Michigan because that time Ford was wanting persons to come in order to work with Ford plant and that kind of thing.	15:56
Willie Clyde Tims	And it was emphasized during the years when you in school and teachers look and they get person to write out what they're going to wield to you and how they see you during your high school class ahead of you graduating and they saying, and they plant this back on you. And they saw me as going on my own plant one day and that I was going to be the head of an institution of business and these kind of things. So all these things are planting things into your mind and into your life. People watch you. And you indicated what you thought you wanted to be.	17:13
Paul Ortiz	So your family had high expectations for you?	18:03
Willie Clyde Tims	Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Family and people that I was around at the church, pastor, even my classmates and community associates, all those persons.	18:08
Paul Ortiz	So Reverend Tims, it sounds like you didn't have the opportunity to sign up with the 99th Pursuit Squadron.	18:29
Willie Clyde Tims	No.	18:38
Paul Ortiz	But what did life hold for you at that point instead?	18:38
Willie Clyde Tims	Well two things were current at that particular time, even at that age I played football and so a number of my graduating classmates had already gone. They had already taken them in service. Had gone in the army. They drafted. So I guess that was one of the reasons why. And the other one was that my mother didn't see flying and she didn't want me to leave and go away home.	18:45
Willie Clyde Tims	Because along with that, that I didn't mention the time in coming is that at the Puget Sound Shipyard, they were trying to get persons to come out of schools in my school, one of the schools that they had contacted for asking persons if they wanted to come to Puget Sound, Washington. They would pay their way and they would have a place for them to stay in. They would promise them a good salary. And they even stated what it would be at that time.	19:43
Willie Clyde Tims	So I wanted to get a job because I wanted to buy some land. Even that year. I thought of going to college. I had offers as far as scholarships concerned because most of the larger person, most of the big fellas, I would say, I was more or less always small. I guess I was the smallest thing on the football team for the three years that I played football. But I was also the quarterback the last year of the team being the smallest part on that. But I didn't want to play football, not for college because I didn't see that at college. I could go with it at high school.	20:16
Willie Clyde Tims	And as I mentioned, I figured I was going to be going in the service and the other one that I wanted to buy some land. And then I was debating on this other job since I couldn't go in the 99th Pursuit Squadron and I couldn't go away from home to go to Michigan or either to Puget Sound. So I worked a little while. A couple of jobs. The first one right at home there making cheese. I started working at a cheese factory place that I had already worked around at during the time I was in school doing something. I made a job there though.	20:59
Willie Clyde Tims	And then I saw that they were drafting more persons in the service and I didn't want to go in the army. So then I volunteered and went in the Navy. So my mother agreed for that because she knew I was going to have to go in something and sell my friends as well as some relative of mine that wanted to go in the Navy too. But he had waited too late and he had already gotten all of his papers and that thing. So that's what it led off to me at that point.	21:44
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Sims, what kind of experiences did you have in the neighborhood?	22:20
Willie Clyde Tims	Overall, I think they was quite fruitful, really and beneficial. Although I knew that it was war and all. But yes, I was one of the persons that helped to go in during the time when the naturally NAACP had pressed for Blacks to be in segregate the armed forces. And the Navy was one of the ones that was probably hit first hardest because all they had gone in the neighborhood was person who what you call mess cook. And they was asking for it to be opened up for rated person. And so there was a few that had gone in ahead of me that gone when they was establishing that base at Great Lake, Illinois.	22:27
Willie Clyde Tims	In other words, I got in and went in time enough to help work that base and make that base. But my first experience out of that in going is that that were nine other persons that left out of Louisiana at that particular time. And I was put in charge of those persons out of Shreveport and they put us on Illinois Central and gave us a sleeping, in other words, a ticket that had called for sleeping car. And we were going to get that sleeping car in Jackson, Mississippi and they just couldn't figure out who made that car.	23:22
Willie Clyde Tims	But we got the sleeping car and they carried us out the back door and they down the tracks and then put us on the sleeping car and locked the door and pulled the shade and told us to let it stay like that because we'd be in Memphis when daylight come. We would stay there until they got us off and there and put us on the car going from there to Chicago.	24:00
Paul Ortiz	All the recruits were Black?	24:25
Willie Clyde Tims	All the recruits were Black. All the recruits. And that's they'd like to blew their mind in there. And I went through that and then I went to service school and they changed the time. They were going eight weeks boot camp and they changed it at the company that I was in at Great Lakes that time. They changed to 12 weeks. Stayed in boot camp 12 weeks before you got chance to ever furlough to go home and then be assigned.	24:27
Willie Clyde Tims	But instead of being assigned to a ship, I was assigned to service school. So I went over to Hampton Institute. Hampton Virginia, the engineering school, what they call a mechanic school at the time. I was an engineer in the Navy. I went to school over there and I went to General Motor School, take further training and that's all I pretty well did while I was in service was I was one of the Black engineers on the ship that I was on.	25:01
Willie Clyde Tims	I was assigned to go to one of the all-Black ships, what was named after the Mason, which was named after a Black fellow that was from Texas that was killed during the same time that Dorie Miller was killed in the Pearl Harbor thing.	25:40
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	25:55
Willie Clyde Tims	But I went to a board of a PC, which a patrol vessel out of the harbor. And of course along with the thing began to fall into pocket. My main base that I worked out of was Boston, Massachusetts. And I was also in being one of the first of the Blacks that went on to board the ship. I was one of the persons who helped to intake the Blacks and sailors that came aboard to make the ease of things. And we would be the persons who would talk with the captain and any problem.	25:56
Paul Ortiz	Which ship, Reverend Tims?	26:48
Willie Clyde Tims	I was on the USS what they call Guinevere. I had been on several other small ones then, but that was the last one that I was on.	26:50
Paul Ortiz	Okay. You were part of a committee of—	27:07
Willie Clyde Tims	I was orientating.	27:07
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	27:07
Willie Clyde Tims	Yeah. And also what you call Grievance Committee in the Navy, on board ship of making the transition as far as Blacks and Whites that working because it was wasn't all Black that was on the ship, and I was one of the main officers. In fact, I was the first petty officer on the ship.	27:11
Paul Ortiz	What were were your main challenges in that position, Reverend Tims, handling grievances and all that?	27:48
Willie Clyde Tims	The sense of not being afraid to speak how I feel and the obligation of being able to make a difference as far as a high that things could be as far as matter of persons concerned and basically between Black and White and the understanding that needed to be a head as far as the working and what the main object was and living together and working together and getting the job done and making life pleasant rather than miserable. And of course there were times when I had to get mad.	27:48
Paul Ortiz	What were some of those times?	28:47
Willie Clyde Tims	Oh, times when we would have maybe new persons come on and they just felt like that no matter what that they just didn't want to be around Blacks, and they just didn't want to give that respect to a Black person. Of course, as I mentioned, and this one at that time had moved far because there was ship that I went on with earlier, which was very small. Because at the time right after the Pearl Harbor incident had gotten started, well there weren't many large vessels. They had to use those pleasure yachts and all the other things that they could get to have something patrol in. And of course the German serves were all out there in the water then. On the Atlantic. And of course the first ship that I was on, I was really the engineer aboard.	28:48
Willie Clyde Tims	I was the only person in charge really as far as the engineering part was concerned. And I left from there and went down into Miami. We spent time there and then we sit down there. We were a special selected person. I was one of the specialist elect person that came from Boston and one or two others that came out of that. And some came from the West Coast that had been in and rated persons and the record that they had as far as in school and as far as their conduct and as far as their background was concerned to go down and integrate things in Miami, Florida down there because they were putting sailors in the hotels down there. And they had both of Russian sailors in there. They had French sailors and they had Cubans and British sailors and all.	29:59
Willie Clyde Tims	And then there were American. But I was more specifically were to integrate the hotels that they had the White sailors in down in there. And we didn't know that's what it was when we went out there. We thought it was supposed to been for special training and it was in part of that. But basically we saw what happened because when we got down there that night, they were not ready for us to assignments as far as rooms and the lack of concern. And so it did to create some problems right off. Because we had person that didn't just didn't want us in the hotel. And it wasn't civilians, they were all sailors that was in some of the large hotels in Miami, Florida at the time. And then the next morning we got ready to go out for lunch or for breakfast.	31:01
Willie Clyde Tims	They had a good way to walk. Of course they had makeshift chow halls in garages and other large storage warehouses they had. But that wasn't a real thing that's a bother. But when we all got in the line, well then we naturally, the White sailors were really talking out loud about niggas and so forth and that thing. And from that we actually had to take it up with our commanding officer who was in charge of us down there about what was happening and how it was going. And they wanted us to sit at tables all by ourselves instead of being with wherever a seat was vacant. And plus the fact out in the city, the city police along with the show patrol that they had, which the navy officers that they had, some of those were Black and they had them lined all up that whenever we come out, they give us trouble.	31:55
Willie Clyde Tims	And of course that was actually where I actually went all the way to a summary Court Marshall down there in Florida down there just because of what happened to me out in the city, out there on the street with police and then show patrol.	33:09
Paul Ortiz	What happened?	33:34
Willie Clyde Tims	You see you had a commander that was a British and they started saying I was out of uniform. Said I didn't have my sleeves, my coat, my shirts buttoned and I didn't have my tie right and I didn't have my hat right and they was trying to punch me with the stick and all of that kind of thing. So they said I was resisting arrest and I was out of uniform and all of these kind of things. So they took me in and had me put in for holding and didn't put you in the brig, they just put you in the room and you supposed to been restricted to your room.	33:34
Willie Clyde Tims	And of course it didn't keep me from going out because my officer let me go out long as I wouldn't be out there on the street where I'd be caught out. Although he wasn't supposed to do what he did.	34:14
Paul Ortiz	Why were they trying to frame you up?	34:24
Willie Clyde Tims	Well he was trying to frame any person and I just happened to be at that particular time that I had left the group. And because you just about had to be together. You really was dangerous to be alone. Anyway, beause Miami during that time too, they had the law in Miami that Blacks were not to be with White in any room in any place at that time. Man or woman. Those kind of laws. And so they was trying to frame anybody. I just happened to be the victim of that easy prayer at the time that night. I had gone down to one of the clubs down there where one of the other fellas were and we had gone down there and the others didn't want to come back so I wanted to come back. So when I left coming back I got caught.	34:28
Willie Clyde Tims	But the next morning, the way they had it, you go to officer's court. And so they said well the situation that it is and they was concerned about trying to clear this thing up too. And my situation looked good for them to use as they clear this up. So then they said you'd have to go, that was Officer Mash, you go to Officer Mash and they say well it's too big for Officer Mash so we'll send it down to the commander and let him see whether or not that it come for the deck court that was the next. He said well it needs to go to deck court. So then went to deck court and they looked at it and they said well too much for this and it needed to go to the—Well what was that highest court? I called the name of it a few minutes ago.	35:26
Paul Ortiz	Oh, summary. Summary?	36:18
Willie Clyde Tims	Why can't I think of the next highest court. That was the navy. I called it a few minutes ago. Summary court. Summary. So we'd have to go to summary court marshal because we got to go before the officers and then we got to assign you an attorney and he'll have to get witnesses and all of these kind of things and all. And they wanted to clear this thing up. So after about two weeks and all that time I was still going to class because we had class and we had schools every day and all of that kind of thing. And I would go out from time to time at night when I wanted go out. But I would have to stay away from being around in the offices and be in my room whatever that they would come and check and they would always tell them when to come and check and see if I was—	36:25
Willie Clyde Tims	But anyway, be that as it may, they did go to summary court and so they cleared it. And they asked me if I wanted to press charges against the city and against officers. I said no, I just want to get that all taken care of. It ain't going to amount to anything to me as long as you all clear this thing what they'll know that if they bother these sailors or they bother us because we're rated men and they had this.	37:16
Willie Clyde Tims	And we got that cleared up too because we didn't have to have a court on that. We just went to our commanding officer and he got the thing and then they started writing orders, cleared it up with reference to these White sailors the way that they were doing and not to try to send us to all sit at the same table. We sit wherever tables. They got all of that. So that's why we would be able to understand the fact that we also were sent down there to clear some of those things up and we were the persons that could do. And then that's when I went from there to the Guinevere on that and then all those. So with those things that I had been through it, I was the person that would be able to manage that activity or that program.	37:44
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, who was your commanding officer?	38:38
Willie Clyde Tims	Down at Miami you mean?	38:43
Paul Ortiz	Yes sir.	38:44
Willie Clyde Tims	I don't remember his name. He was a British.	38:45
Paul Ortiz	He was British?	38:46
Willie Clyde Tims	Yeah, he was British.	38:48
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember the name of the unit? Was there just a one unit?	38:50
Willie Clyde Tims	He was just one unit. We were supposed to have been a special group. They said to go aboard—They said submarine at one time taking training for submarine. Then they said well then you're going to go aboard the ship to further integrate the ships as far as Black and White sailors are concerned.	38:56
Paul Ortiz	So this is really a handpicked—	39:18
Willie Clyde Tims	That's right.	39:21
Paul Ortiz	Elite Group of—	39:21
Willie Clyde Tims	That's right. That's right.	39:22
Paul Ortiz	Reverend Tims, what came next for you after the Navy? Do you have any more experiences from the Navy?	39:29
Willie Clyde Tims	Well yeah I stayed aboard ship until we did convoys and patrol during the time of the getting ready for the Normandy invasion and all. That was one of the largest convoys that probably crossed the Atlantic and they was getting those ships over there. And then we also did some rescue operations as far as the ship records in the North Atlantic because the hurricanes and the gales and the rough waters and all. Then we were involved in the two submarines that had their Japanese board that we had to have a boarding crew to go aboard those subs and get them to when they surface and bring them into Portsmouth, New Hampshire.	39:37
Willie Clyde Tims	And also we were out at times when there were Germans that were having those one and two men served that were going ashore during the time to try to do sabotage work in the law. We were involved in picking up those operations that were taking place at the time. And after the Normandy invasion and the war that the dumping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we were supposed to been going to take a ship and then go to Iwo Jima. But then there was change that came in that assignment.	40:44
Willie Clyde Tims	And we went to Shoemaker in California and took 79 men to Honolulu and we spent eight days there and then we left there and I guess for a while that they didn't know where they were going to send us to, where we would carry those two. I was in charter. We had some problems aboard that ship leaving out of Honolulu with some of the officers and sailors because they had been letting out Black sailors that was aboard that ship eat by themselves either first or last depending on what they were. And that's what they wanted us to do. And I told them that wasn't going to happen, not with my people. So we had a little problem getting that lined out. But we got it lined out.	41:48
Willie Clyde Tims	And we stopped at several points and that was before everything had been cleared up because we liked to go hit at Guam because there were Japanese that they hadn't gotten out of the boxes and out of the hidden areas. And we went to Subic Bay. Stopped in Subic Bay and Corregidor at Bataan and went from there to Manila because we just loaded up foods and stuff, waters at Manila and we went to Samar and Lady and we got off on Lady, put us off on Land Lady. Had it the first time I'd been back on land, to be assigned to land base since we left from Miami and experience there.	42:48
Willie Clyde Tims	And the night after we'd gotten there, there was a race riot. And it lasted all night long. And then we had another one on Christmas Eve night because I was there at that time. And of course I was really waiting on my points. They had started the point system and I had been asked about either going to officers school or either skipping first class and going to an even one. I had been spoken to about that. So I was turning that down to get my points. So when that came up I went out. But the other experience after getting out of the Navy, I made efforts to reenlist because I thought that I should be—	44:09
Willie Clyde Tims	All right, y'all. God'll take care. All right.	45:07
Speaker 3	Good meeting you sir. Have a good night.	45:10
Willie Clyde Tims	But they told me that the only thing that I could get back in there, I was in Cleveland, Ohio at that time, was get back in the Navy and would be a mess cook.	45:15
Paul Ortiz	After all you were serving.	45:24
Willie Clyde Tims	After serving all those years. Yeah, I knew that wasn't—But that was the end of pretty well the Navy career.	45:26
Paul Ortiz	So Reverend Tims, you left the Navy as a petty officer second class?	45:35
Willie Clyde Tims	That's right.	45:37
Paul Ortiz	Second class.	45:38
Willie Clyde Tims	Motor machinist mate.	45:40
Paul Ortiz	Machinist mate.	45:41
Willie Clyde Tims	Yeah, MM-2C.	45:42
Paul Ortiz	And then after your honorable discharged from the Navy, did you come back to Louisiana?	45:43
Willie Clyde Tims	Yeah, I came back to Homer in my home and I stayed there a while, and then I left and went to Cleveland, Ohio and I really tried to go to work with General Motors since I had had some training.	45:55

Item Info

Title:

Willie Tims interview recording, 1995 July 20

Date:

July 20, 1995

Creator:

Tims, Willie Clyde

Contributor:

Ortiz, Paul

Description:

Name: Willie Clyde Tims; Date of birth: 1922-12-07; Place of birth: Homer, LA; Occupation(s): educator; principal; teacher; Residence: Magnolia, AR
Informant ID: 1091; Interviewed by: Paul Ortiz.

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Willie Tims interview recording, 1995 July 20

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1. Willie Tims administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Willie Tims interview recording, 1995 July 20

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