Henrietta Crudup interview recording, 1995 July 13

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Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:00:03].	0:00
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I was born "Vannie," Henrietta McCoy. I was born September the 16th, 1918.	0:00
Blair Murphy	And where were you born?	0:00
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I was born in Norfolk County.	0:00
Blair Murphy	What was it like when you were growing up in Norfolk County?	0:00
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	About when I was six years old, and my father raised—And it was nine of us in the home.	0:00
Blair Murphy	Where were you in the order of the children?	0:00
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I was the baby of nine children. This—Hey, Richard?	0:00
Richard	Huh?	0:00
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Come here. Do you know that—my birth certificate in that china closet?	1:43
Richard	Mm-hmm.	1:44
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Well get it to me. I want to tell her something.	1:44
Richard	Where at in the china cabinet? Huh?	1:44
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	In a glass.	1:44
Richard	That was Howard's. That was Howard Junior's.	1:44
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I don't know where you all are at now.	1:45
Blair Murphy	That's okay. Take your time. That's okay.	2:19
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I don't know.	2:19
Blair Murphy	It's okay.	2:19
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I'll have to get my birth certificate because everything—My name and everything. I thought it—it wasn't inside the—see, when you blind, somebody takes my things and puts them where they want them to go.	2:26
Blair Murphy	What was it like in your house when you were growing up?	2:36
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	It was a very nice upbringing. Some of the thing is because when my mother died, we had two cars. A Buick, a red car and a black car. We had two cars, and we had a horse and a buggy, and—And my father had 20 acres of land, and there was just corn. He worked my five brothers and four girls, and I was the youngest, but we all farmed and everything.	2:47
Blair Murphy	What types of things did you grow?	3:44
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	My father grew some of the biggest sweet potatoes, and rutabagas. He was a grower of rutabagas. And he had—what you call those—He grew feed for the horses. Fodder. I used to—I didn't know what fodder was. He would always say, "Get that fodder in." I didn't know what it was until I was grown. You know, that was the corn.	3:49
Blair Murphy	The blades?	4:46
Essie Dozier	The big blades.	4:46
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh?	4:46
Essie Dozier	The big blades on the leaves—	4:49
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Big blades on the corn, and they would wind them up in put them in piles. Roll them up and put them in a pile. That's not—Yeah, not that, but they used to do—	4:50
Richard	Back then.	5:13
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	—that fodder out. My father would always say, "Make that fodder."	5:18
Richard	What did you have to do?	5:29
Blair Murphy	What did you do with that? Do you know?	5:29
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	For the horses.	5:30
Blair Murphy	For the horses.	5:30
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Horses and the cows to eat.	5:36
Blair Murphy	Okay.	5:36
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah.	5:37
Blair Murphy	Do you remember going to school? Do you remember?	5:42
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. I went to school. I started here on Salt Hill. And the first day I went to school, I didn't want to go, because everybody had a mother that took them to school and I didn't have a mother. And my father would walk. Would tell us to go to school, but everybody else—And then Marian Hasley, that was my friend. Marian Hasley and—Earl was too young, my brother. Anyways, everybody had a mother. Lucille Butler, all of them, had a mother, and I felt slighted. I don't know how I felt not having a mother, because everybody had a mother.	5:43
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Anyway, I went to school. And Mrs. Burley was our principal of the school. Do you remember him?	6:51
Essie Dozier	No, I don't.	6:58
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Mrs. Burley was the principal of the school, and she made us welcome. And made me especially welcome, because I was reluctant to go into school. Anyways, I went and got to the seventh grade, and I said to myself, "I'm not going to let anybody know anymore than I know, in my class." And I sort of led the class, all along, until I went to high school.	7:14
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I finished grammar school. And that night that we had an exercise, Reverend Johnson was our principal, and he said he wanted—He taught the seventh grade, and he wanted me to speak a resertation. Well, the welcome address. I said, "I never wanted to do that, because I wouldn't have a white dress." And he went to my sister and told her that he wanted me to speak the recitation, because I spoke this statement to the other children. I said, "No. No, I'm not going to have a white dress."	7:52
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And you know, my sister didn't make a me a white dress, and every girl in that class that graduated in the seventh grade had a white dress. I said, "I'm not going to be in the program." And—	8:50
Blair Murphy	How much older was your sister?	9:10
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	She was 20 years older than I am.	9:13
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	9:16
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And that night we had the program, I said, "I didn't want—" I would sing the resertation, because I didn't want to say it. But he said, "You're going to say it." He went to my sister and told her that he wanted me to speak, and she said, "You're going to speak it." And he told me—And you know what, I remember, I never shall forget. She put on a dress that was a beige dress! Everybody had a white dress instead of me. I didn't have a white dress. She put on me a beige dress. I believe it was her dress.	9:24
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	But Ms. Annie Jackson, do you remember her?	10:10
Essie Dozier	No, ma'am. I've heard the name, but I don't remember her.	10:10
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Ms. Annie Jackson, she built me up so good, "Vannie McCoy is going to speak the recitation, and she speaks so nice." She built me up to everything. And I said—Well I was proud to get up on the stage in the back and speak that recitation. I said, "We welcome you here tonight, friends, with smiles and words of cheer. This is one of the happiest times of all of our school year." And I said, "We welcome you to hear our recitation and our speakers."	10:18
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah, I did that thing fine, but I didn't have a white dress on. And everybody praised up me, the way that I said it, but I didn't forget that I didn't have a white dress on. I got over that night, real good, but I wasn't happy that—I wasn't happy.	11:12
Blair Murphy	So you went to the same school from first grade?	11:45
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	From first grade to the seventh grade.	11:47
Blair Murphy	How many teachers were there in your school?	11:50
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Ms. Brown, Ms. Burley was the principal, Reverend Johnson, Ms. Lancaster, Ms. Straw—Oh, lord.	11:57
Blair Murphy	You don't have to remember them all.	12:13
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah. Ms. Straw. That's all; Brown, Lancaster, Straw. For Valentine's Day, she had a son that was named Valentine. In Norfolk, he was the—Ms. Straw, she was a Valentine. He had a Penny building. You know that one?	12:19
Essie Dozier	The name of the building is?	12:56
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Penny's building that he had. It went from Sears & Roebuck on to—	13:00
Essie Dozier	Systems management building?	13:11
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes.	13:12
Essie Dozier	Yes, I remember [indistinct 00:13:14].	13:12
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. That's one. His mother was a teacher at our school.	13:15
Essie Dozier	Okay.	13:20
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Uh-huh.	13:20
Blair Murphy	Did you have a teacher for each individual grade or did they—	13:22
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	No, there were four teachers for different classes.	13:29
Blair Murphy	Okay. Different grades?	13:35
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Different grades. That's right.	13:36
Blair Murphy	So a teacher might have more than one grade?	13:38
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes, because—	13:40
Blair Murphy	Like first and second, did you have one—	13:41
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	—You had a first and second, and third and fourth, would be together.	13:45
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	13:47
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	That's right. And some girls that I was in the class with in the class, when I finished, they weren't—They were slow learners, and I passed them. And they were older than I was.	13:48
Blair Murphy	Was it a big school?	14:05
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah. Some of them were. Well, we had four classrooms.	14:08
Blair Murphy	Okay.	14:13
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Four classrooms. They were a double line.	14:14
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	14:20
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah, but we learned more than—I had 10 of my own children. I know we learned more than the children now learn. In a way. In one way. We learned differently. We were different, because all of us tried to excel, one over another. And children are not like that now. I notice that from my children. I used to have to tell them all the time, "Don't let nobody know anymore than you can learn yourself." That's how they got through it. All of my children. All of them. Oh, yes. All of them.	14:29
Blair Murphy	So you went on to high school?	15:23
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	High school. And I graduated from high school in 1936. 1936. 1937, I got married because I wanted to go to college, but I didn't have nobody to send no money.	15:25
Blair Murphy	Okay.	15:30
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I was married. And Addie, she went. My friend, Anna Williams—I don't know whether you know her. Do you know Anna Williams?	15:30
Essie Dozier	No, ma'am. I don't think so.	16:09
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Okay. Gilbertine Williams?	16:10
Essie Dozier	Yeah, Gilbert—Sure, I know the Williams. Gilbertine and—	16:10
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Gilbertine.	16:16
Essie Dozier	Yeah. One of is an Alexander.	16:19
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah.	16:19
Essie Dozier	Yeah, I know them.	16:19
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah, that's right. Now he was the one that I was supposed to have gone with him, Joe Alan.	16:22
Essie Dozier	Yeah, Joe Alan. Joe Alan Alexander.	16:34
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah. And [indistinct 00:16:42]—It wasn't many girls there. It was those two, but [indistinct 00:17:00] to go at all, and I wanted to go, but I didn't. Anyways—	16:35
Blair Murphy	So where did you move when you got married?	17:42
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I stayed right in that corner house down from this street, with my sister. And then I stayed there about three years, and then moved to 935 Hill Street, and raised all my children there. Hill Street, 935 Hill Street.	17:42
Blair Murphy	Did you have work? Did you work when you h	17:42
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I worked. I volunteered. I worked helping people in the community get on welfare.	18:01
Blair Murphy	Okay.	18:05
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I did that. Nobody told me to do it, but I just saw a way that I could help. I recommended people, it was so many people I recommended, to get on welfare. But I learned that that wasn't good, because we wanted everybody to work. You know?	18:05
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	18:40
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	But some couldn't work. It was reluctantly, we got the help. But lots of people didn't want it, because they couldn't help us. Anyways, in 19—about '50 something, somebody came around here and asked two, three girls, to work with the welfare social service, and I volunteered. I had about—I had all of my children then.	18:48
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	19:31
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Because my last child was born 1959, and I was working—I worked for seven years with the city, helping the people.	19:34
Blair Murphy	This was in the 1950s?	19:55
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes.	19:55
Blair Murphy	Okay.	19:55
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	1950s. And I worked for somebody at Great Bridge. She had a program. It was called an extension program.	20:15
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	20:19
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I worked with her there and—for all those years. And then what—	20:34
Blair Murphy	So what was this neighborhood like when you first got married?	20:34
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	It was good. It was a good neighborhood, because we didn't have any fights and all that. No fussing and fighting, and that. All the things that I was brought up—When I was brought up, we had trouble with the Ku Klux Klansmen.	20:44
Blair Murphy	Okay. So did White people live near here?	21:04
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh?	21:05
Blair Murphy	What people lived in this area?	21:06
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. Mm-hmm. And we are sandwiched between the White people.	21:07
Blair Murphy	Okay.	21:11
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And some of them were good. Most of them were good, but—You know my brothers would go to the closest corner, where my father had some land, and every time they would go to—from Gainesville Boulevard down [indistinct 00:21:46], they had to fight. Every time. They had a fight every time they went to the farm.	21:14
Blair Murphy	They had to pass by White people?	21:55
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	That's right. They had to pass by the White people, and those boys—You know it's one man that I know—You know Mr. Midget? Midget [indistinct 00:22:23]—	22:01
Essie Dozier	I've heard the family name.	22:23
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh?	22:24
Essie Dozier	I've heard the family name, Midget.	22:24
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Now he was a bad boy. They had to fight all the time. All the boys, they would go to the closest corner, and they had to fight every time they passed that place.	22:31
Blair Murphy	Why were they bothering them? (phone rings)	22:57
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Well, they'd say, "Where are you going?" (phone rings) [Indistinct 00:23:09] told that they were going up to the farm and they were just going. And they said that they had to fight. They beat them up. Beat the boys up. Beat all my brothers up, until—You know what stopped that?	23:03
Blair Murphy	What's that?	23:32
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	They were going to the farm. The Chapman's had a farm, and the McCoy's had a farm. And they got in a fight and Mr. Midget was with them. And if you know him, you see how his face is—they beat—He beat our boys [indistinct 00:24:16]. And the one who came from Washington, and his name was Fred Carpenter.	23:34
Blair Murphy	Fred Carpenter.	24:23
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Do you remember him?	24:25
Blair Murphy	Yes, ma'am.	24:27
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And they got in a fight, and I think he took—I know he took a baseball bat, that he hid in the wagon, and beat that man, Mr. Midget, up. And that stopped the fights. They didn't fight no more, when he he did that. And he went away, because they were going to get him. You know?	24:28
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	25:16
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And he went away, and stayed for years. He is a friend to all of us. He knows all of us now, Mr. Midget. He is a nice man, but that was their prerogative, to fight. But we bought gas from him and everything. He was a fine person. Sometimes you think that somebody's bad, we can blame lots of things on our youth. You know?	25:16
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	26:02
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	When you were young and not mindful of not doing things, and we were friends. Mr. Donnie King Gibson, he was a friend of ours, and all of them, we were together. But it was always somebody in the crowd, would want to make strife. That's been all the time.	26:03
Blair Murphy	This whole Black community here is in between two separate White communities?	26:38
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh? Yes.	26:44
Blair Murphy	Okay.	26:45
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Money Point, and Portlock, and we were in between.	26:52
Blair Murphy	Was there another Black community in a different area?	26:56
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Mm-hmm. Well, all along Dozier's Corner, and on to Great Bridge, that's where the other people—But we were very sister-like, in churches. St. Luke, that's in Hope Grove, that was our sister church.	27:00
Blair Murphy	What was your church?	27:30
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Mount Olive AME Church.	27:30
Blair Murphy	Okay.	27:31
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Mount Olive. I grew up at that church, all my life.	27:32
Blair Murphy	Okay.	27:45
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And it's still here. They are building a new church over here.	27:47
Blair Murphy	What do you remember about church, when you were little?	27:51
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Say what?	27:55
Blair Murphy	What do you remember about church?	27:55
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Oh, yes. Oh, well I remember we had a young people's department, and he had retreats, and he had Christian retreat. He would have six days of Bible school. He had six days of Bible school, from Monday to Saturday, and we had picnics. The most that we had, we studied the Bible. We studied the 10 Commandments. All our people in the church would try to speak to everybody, abiding by the 10 Commandments. And I would think, all of the children would say, "Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness." These are the two that I thought stayed in our minds.	27:57
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	"Bear no witness. Thou shalt not steal," those were the only ones that—All the ones that stayed in our minds, and I said, "It looks like everybody wanted to steal something." Everybody wanted to steal something. And I remember a Jim White store that we used to go in the store, and everybody would try to look at Mr. Morrison. Morrison had a store called, 'Carline,' that's the one where we brought our groceries from.	29:47
Blair Murphy	Was that a Black man?	30:41
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	He's a White man.	30:46
Blair Murphy	A White man.	30:48
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	A White man, Louis Morrison. And he would get a kick out of the boys stealing. You know?	30:51
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	31:00
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Take a handful of nuts, so Mr. Morrison—I'm going to tell you about this, and you're going to laugh. When we first knew about Brazil nuts, we didn't know they were Brazil nuts, and Mr. Morrison, he told all of us children that they were burnt nigger toes. You know?	31:03
Blair Murphy	Okay.	31:39
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Brazil nuts, they're nigger toes. Now Mr. Morrison would get a store full of people, all those men—And Luther Easley was a friend of ours, and he would go in the store. And he said Mr. Morrison would say, "What you want, Luther?" He said, "Mr. Morrison, give me five cents worth of those nigger toes." And we didn't know what the men were laughing about, because we didn't know that they were Brazil nuts.	31:40
Blair Murphy	Okay.	32:27
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And we called them "nigger toes." And every time, every day, every evening, Luther would get five cents and buy. Mr. Morrison, "What you want?" Luther, "I want five cents worth of those nigger toes." And they had a laugh for days. They laughed all day, about him saying, "nigger toes." Luther went to New York and he met a girl, and the girl's—He said, "Buy some of those nuts at Christmastime." He said, "We call them 'nigger toes.'" She said, "No, they're Brazil nuts." He said, "I didn't know that."	32:29
Blair Murphy	That's what my grandfather called them too.	33:33
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	What? Did he?	33:36
Blair Murphy	Yes, he did.	33:37
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	No.	33:37
Essie Dozier	Was he from the South?	33:37
Blair Murphy	Yeah, he's from North Carolina.	33:39
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. That's what—	33:41
Essie Dozier	First thing I heard too.	33:43
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	—That's what you heard too?	33:45
Essie Dozier	I heard it too. That's what—Yeah.	33:45
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes.	33:45
Essie Dozier	I knew that before I knew to call them Brazil nuts.	33:45
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Mm-hmm. Nigger toes. Yes, I had—And we thought we were saying something great.	33:45
Blair Murphy	Seriously?	33:45
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I laughed all the time. And he said, "I didn't know what they were until I went to New York," and the girl in New York told him that they were Brazil nuts. And I have—	34:02
Speaker 1	I'll see y'all later. See you, Mom.	34:12
Essie Dozier	Bye.	34:12
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	—I have kept it in my mind, all the time, "Brazil nuts."	34:15
Essie Dozier	Yes.	34:15
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah. But they are good. I love them. (laughs) Yes.	34:25
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:34:35].	34:34
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	You? You heard it?	34:35
Essie Dozier	Yes.	34:35
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I didn't—I haven't—You are the first one that I heard, other than what I know from South here—Yes. Yes, you are the first one that I heard say that they heard somebody, and they call them "nigger—"	34:35
Blair Murphy	Nigger—That's what my grandfather always called them.	34:54
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah.	34:59
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:34:59].	34:59
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	He did?	35:04
Blair Murphy	Yep.	35:05
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Now you said your grandfather?	35:05
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	35:05
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	What? Why did he do that?	35:07
Blair Murphy	I don't know. I guess that's what he heard them called, so that's what he called them. It must have been kind of spread out.	35:10
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah. Oh Father, I haven't heard nobody said that but you. Yes. Yes.	35:25
Blair Murphy	Do you know how your father came to own his land?	35:33
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	My grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. She used to cook for the people in Dozier's Corner, that had the slaves.	35:39
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	35:53
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	She was the cook. My mother was a—My grandmother was a Cherokee Indian, and she was light skinned.	35:55
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	36:09
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	She had long hair, Indian hair. Long. I remember her hair was right down to her hips.	36:09
Blair Murphy	Do you remember meeting her?	36:18
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes.	36:22
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:36:22].	36:22
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	She died after my mother died.	36:22
Blair Murphy	Okay.	36:24
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. She—	36:25
Blair Murphy	So she was your mother's mom or your father's?	36:37
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	No, my father's mother.	36:37
Blair Murphy	Okay.	36:37
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And she accumulated that land. I don't know how she got it, but I saw the deed that I had here, that my father—She willed that land to my father.	36:39
Blair Murphy	Okay.	36:59
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	She had some more sons, but my father was Irene, the one she wanted to give the land. And he had 20 acres of land in Doziers's Corner.	37:03
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	37:15
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And out of five of them, the land was in my mother's name.	37:23
Blair Murphy	Okay.	37:25
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And 15 in his name. And I think my grandmother got that land from the White folks. They gave her that land or she bought it from them. I don't know how she got it, but she got 20 acres of land. I don't know how she got it. Anyways, she was the cook for the slaves.	37:30
Blair Murphy	What are—	38:04
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh?	38:04
Blair Murphy	—Were the slave owners around her?	38:07
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah. That's right.	38:07
Blair Murphy	And she cooked for several different—	38:10
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah.	38:12
Blair Murphy	Okay.	38:12
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	All of them. She was the cook.	38:12
Blair Murphy	Okay.	38:12
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And she had a sister. She had some sisters that lived in Oak Grove.	38:17
Blair Murphy	Okay.	38:31
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And that's—I don't know how she got the land, but I think that they willed her some land. You know?	38:32
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	38:40
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I don't know. I don't know about that and I never asked my father about that. You know?	38:41
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	38:46
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	But I know she had that land, and my father's brother signed all that land to him.	38:51
Blair Murphy	Okay.	39:00
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	They signed that land to my father, because my grandmother wanted him to have it.	39:02
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	It's funny. I don't know. I'm not going to say that. I don't—I forgot what we were talking about.	39:23
Blair Murphy	Do you remember how—what your wedding was like? Because I heard that women didn't necessarily wear a white dress when they got married. It was probably a real nice dress, but now, they're buying a white dress.	39:42
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	That's right. When I got married, I had on a dress laced up and it was—	40:10
Essie Dozier	Do you remember what color it was?	40:15
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:40:16].	40:15
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	It was a steel gray.	40:17
Blair Murphy	Okay.	40:17
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	A steel gray dress, and the top was laced like—And the bottom was crepe. I don't think nobody I saw got married in a white dress. Everybody that got married, they got married in an ordinary dress.	40:21
Essie Dozier	Did they get married in the church?	40:59
Blair Murphy	Or did they get married in a home?	40:59
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I, in a home. I got married in our living room.	40:59
Essie Dozier	Okay.	40:59
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Reverend Moore married us, in 1937.	40:59
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	40:59
Essie Dozier	[indistinct 00:41:16].	40:59
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. I remember that. It was [indistinct 00:41:21]. I remember that I got married [indistinct 00:41:27].	42:04
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I didn't know what I was doing when I got married. I didn't know what I was doing. (Dozier laughs) But all the girls was getting pregnant. I said, "I'm not going to get pregnant, and I mean I'm not going to get pregnant." But I got pregnant.	42:04
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I stayed around, I stayed around. I finished high school. I wanted to go college and I couldn't. Do you know I couldn't save up to $100 to go to school? That's all it cost, $100 a year, to go to school. And I couldn't save that to save my life. But you know why? You know why I couldn't save it?	42:04
Blair Murphy	Why?	42:22
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I was working for 50 cents a day.	42:23
Blair Murphy	Where were you working?	42:29
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Down in Fort Lauderdale, tending to babies. White babies. Those children, I loved them. I don't know how I came to love the White children so good. You know?	42:32
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	42:50
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	All of us. All of us that worked for them—I used to go to the beach with the people that I worked for, Mrs. Simpson. It's lots of people that I worked—[indistinct 00:43:11] lots of people that I worked for, and kept their children. And you know, I used to go to the beach with them.	42:50
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	43:23
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I fixed the food for the children. I did just like the wife ought to have been doing, and I did it.	43:24
Blair Murphy	Okay.	43:30
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Taking care of the children, and Mr. Simpson and his wife, they were on the beach somewhere and I had the children. I loved that. I liked that, and I thought I was somebody. But you know what happened to me?	43:35
Blair Murphy	What's that?	43:36
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I had all those children. I can name them; Hope, Simpson, Bucky, and Rita. All of them, I had on the beach. One ran off on me. I could have died myself, because I couldn't swim. And he ran in the river, and I went to grab him. I told him, many times, that I could have died in that—in Virginia Beach. Where the water was the same color as the sky.	43:38
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	We went to Virginia Beach, and that boy run off, I wouldn't let him drown because I was going to get in—And I was so scared I had lost that child, I didn't know what to do. I was afraid, I didn't want to die.	43:38
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I just—A little before I finished high school that summer. I thought that boy had drowned, I thought they were going to lynch me. I thought that. I knew that I had to take care of their children. But they were good to me. Mrs. Simpson was good. She was good to me. We had a good time.	43:38
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Her husband used to bring baskets of tomatoes, and he'd say, "Vannie, you can have something from my [indistinct 00:45:56]." They were good to me. They were very good to me. But then I was good to them, because I didn't—I cleaned up. I was the finest cleaner.	43:39
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I don't know what my house looks like now, because I haven't seen in years.	43:56
Blair Murphy	It's clean.	44:12
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I'm blind.	44:12
Blair Murphy	Very clean.	44:12
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	But I was industrious. I liked to be in a clean house. Now, I don't worry about too many things that's extraordinary, but I like it. I like a—	44:18

Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	You have to think positive, you know? Think positively. I often think, I say, now, if we were in the leading position like we think the White people are in lead, what would we do? Do you know? Because nobody wants to be an underdog, you know? But we have had some people, leaders doing work and some bad ones. That's what life is all about. Good and bad. And it's good to be here.	0:05
Blair Murphy	Do you remember any people from this community who are trying to push for change? Or change about segregation, or about schooling or about the childre?	0:59
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. Yes. Now, this, you know, I don't know, Billie Todd. She, she was a good person with us. She was a nice person. And she thought like I thought. She was thinking we ought to live and let live. And then I told her, I said, "Why don't they do us like the White people?" She said, "Well, you know, I have one thought about that anyway. If you were in the lead, would you pass it over to us?" I said, "I see your point. We want to be on top and they want to be on top. And the strongest one wins."	1:15
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And we often talked about that, Mrs. Billie Todd, and Norma Simpson, Norma Morrison, Annie Morrison, all those. They talk our language that if we were in the lead, what we would do. I said, I would think some people that's in lead would trample you under their feet and some would, on the other side would trample you, under their feet. You can't let—You can't have the will to let live, to let people live as well as you live. That's what it's all about. I've got to be over you, everybody wants to be the big head. Yes. It's reasonable, because when you look at the Bible, they did some terrible things in the Bible.	2:43
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	4:26
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	For instance, when a king wanted to be head, he would have the other one killed. That's right. That's in the people's mind to do, be superior and they don't want to be on equal, because we—in school, we didn't—I would wonder while I was in school why they would send our books after other people used it, you know?	4:26
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:04:32].	4:26
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh?	4:26
Blair Murphy	The White children used the books first.	4:26
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. I didn't know. I said, why couldn't they get a set of new books and let us wear them out. But no, they sent the books—the new books, they kept, and the old books, they give them to us. You know? I didn't understand that but I knew about that. Now, Mr. Storey was our superintendent. Did you know him? Huh?	4:32
Blair Murphy	No.	4:32
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	[indistinct 00:06:06]. Did you know it?	4:32
Essie Dozier	What was his name?	4:32
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh?	4:32
Essie Dozier	[indistinct 00:06:09]. Yes, ma'am.	4:32
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	[indistinct 00:06:11].	4:32
Essie Dozier	Yes, I did.	4:32
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes, he believed in the Black [indistinct 00:06:18]. [indistinct 00:06:20] Gibson. Do you know him?	4:32
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:06:23]. Yes, ma'am I know him.	4:32
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	[indistinct 00:06:25]. Yeah. She and I were warriors. Yes, we talked a lot. We were loud. She [indistinct 00:06:50] we talked lots of times we wanted the best for our children. And we talked about it, and [indistinct 00:06:58] said, "What y'all doing? [indistinct 00:07:02]." I wanted [indistinct 00:07:07] to have a cafeteria on the [indistinct 00:07:18]. And he say, "Y'all want us to make tables? Set a table and feed you?" Something like that. Anyway. But he was so good and he [indistinct 00:07:40] cafeteria built on our school. Do you remember?	4:35
Blair Murphy	Yes, ma'am.	7:44
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes, he was [indistinct 00:07:47] bad man. But he [indistinct 00:07:51] down and built a [indistinct 00:07:53]. Do you know how the school got torn down?	7:49
Blair Murphy	I don't. I was [indistinct 00:08:02] oil company.	8:01
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	No.	8:04
Blair Murphy	Then I don't remember how.	8:07
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Now, when they said to [indistinct 00:08:18] schools to go together, when they stopped in 1954. What happened?	8:08
Blair Murphy	The supreme court decision to desegregate the schools.	8:31
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	That's right. Now, when that happened, we were going along fine. And someone, the mailman said he didn't want his children go to the South Hill school. I said, "Don't let them come here. We will keep this school ourselves." And they had a meeting and one night the Ku Klux Klans came down and the first thing they busted up, the furnace. The furnace in that school. And we had just built that school. And had facilities nice. And they burst it up, that furnace, and they tore all the telephones out there. And walls. And they left the school. Willa Jean Chapman, just ignored her. Willa Jean Chapman, the Fred Chapman wife?	8:34
Essie Dozier	Yes, ma'am.	10:14
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	She was looking at a Ku Klux Klan, when they busted up that school. They had the hoods on, you know, they was dressed like they dress. They tore that school up. And we were scared to say anything. On the South Hill. Yes, that's what happened. Did you all hear that?	10:14
Essie Dozier	No, ma'am. I didn't.	10:27
Blair Murphy	So the Klan folks set [indistinct 00:10:29].	10:28
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh?	10:28
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:10:29]?	10:28
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	That's right. The [indistinct 00:10:33] came back and they said they weren't going to send their children on [indistinct 00:11:20]. They [indistinct 00:11:22] that school.	10:29
Blair Murphy	Did they do anything else after that decision had been made? [indistinct 00:11:29].	11:23
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	My children went to Crestwood, the first one, they went from Crestwood Elementary, my children [indistinct 00:11:55].	11:25
Blair Murphy	Is that a Black school?	11:25
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	That's Black school, yes. And my daughter finished Crestwood. And we were going to Carver anyway. And after the seventh grade, after a year, went to Carver. Anyway, yeah, that's right, to Carver. Anyways, we passed through Portlock, all the schools, to go to Carver, and Crestwood, anyway. That's the closest we had. Well, anyway, when I was going to high school, I had to walk from South Hill to Carver.	13:03
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:13:08].	13:06
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Three miles. To walk from Carver. That's [indistinct 00:13:24]. We really—all our followers thought that we could go to Portlock School. And Portlock School, all of them [indistinct 00:13:46].	13:08
Blair Murphy	So you walked past White schools?	13:51
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	That's right.	13:52
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:13:54].	13:52
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	That's right. And we walked, I walked three miles to Carver and the White children would ride on the bus, and throwing chicken bones all on us, all everything on us.	13:55
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	14:11
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	[indistinct 00:14:17] thought that was funny. But they didn't. That's mischevious children. We didn't hold it against them. Only thing we resented, being called "All you Black niggers." That's what we really resented, being called "Black niggers." But we didn't have no sense, because you know what I said when they called us "Black nigger"? And I said, "You White crackers." (laughs) That was fun to us. But some people thought it was so bad. But I didn't think it was that bad, because sometimes we get against each other, you know, out here, getting old, that's all in life. If my children would have heard me talk, they said [indistinct 00:15:41] some kind of ways that they would like [indistinct 00:15:48]. You know, everybody wants to survive, survival of the fittest.	14:17
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	15:06
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. [indistinct 00:16:02] because I just want to [indistinct 00:16:08]. I wish I could tell you something that would stop all children [indistinct 00:16:20], young boys from being in dope and all that stuff. I'm so sorry that that has come up, because last weekend, I'm [indistinct 00:16:37]. 19 years old [indistinct 00:16:54]. My niece's boy was shot, 19 years old. And they ended up being in the paper. All over what, because? And he was just 19. And he was going to college. But somebody [indistinct 00:17:19].	16:14
Essie Dozier	What was his name?	17:18
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Graham.	17:23
Speaker 1	See you back! How's everybody?	17:23
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	All right. All right.	17:23
Essie Dozier	[indistinct 00:17:29].	17:24
Blair Murphy	So do you think that they were, when you were growing up [indistinct 00:17:35] get in trouble [indistinct 00:17:38].	17:29
Speaker 1	Excuse me.	17:39
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	All right, thank you now. All right. [indistinct 00:17:47].	17:40
Blair Murphy	She said she was from [indistinct 00:17:48].	17:47
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Oh, yeah. Yes.	17:49
Blair Murphy	Do you think there's a difference in how you were raised back then?	17:52
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. They were strict. We were strict. [indistinct 00:18:03]. They were mindful of doing the things right. The [indistinct 00:18:14] have some in my family. They don't teach the children right. They are not mindful. They are wild, the mothers are wild. And they are not homelike. They want the children to learn by themselves and they don't take no interest.	18:06
Blair Murphy	Parents took a lot of interest?	18:50
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes.	18:50
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:18:53].	18:50
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. Yes.	18:54
Blair Murphy	Did other people, other adults [indistinct 00:18:59] did they look out for all the children?	18:55
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yes. Yes. Now, in [indistinct 00:19:09] anything happened in the community, everybody would tell each person [indistinct 00:19:17] some business [indistinct 00:19:20]. And check on them. But they don't do that now. They don't do that. And the fathers, you know what? The fathers have [indistinct 00:19:39] the homes that the children don't have no fathers in, and have no [indistinct 00:19:48] ways for the children. That's [indistinct 00:19:55]. Nobody is a leader in the home, because the father is supposed to be the breadwinner and the leader of the house. And when they are not there, it's not no [indistinct 00:20:13].	19:02
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	20:13
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	So children feel like they can do anything and treat their mothers any kind of way. And some of the mothers [indistinct 00:20:26] nowhere. But [indistinct 00:20:32]. [indistinct 00:20:35] because that [indistinct 00:20:39] everybody crazy. Now, who goes to Colombia and get that [indistinct 00:20:54] country. Who's bringing? That's [indistinct 00:20:59]. The man that's got enough money to buy it. And he [indistinct 00:21:11] all around the Black folks, and they have not got no [indistinct 00:21:20] not to do nothing. I thought drinking liquor was the worst thing to happen [indistinct 00:21:33].	20:15
Blair Murphy	Did some young people get into trouble?	21:34
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh?	21:37
Blair Murphy	Did some young people get into trouble when you were growing up?	21:38
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	No, I know [indistinct 00:21:45] some people used to drink [indistinct 00:21:50]. But now, that [indistinct 00:21:52] has got [indistinct 00:21:57]. They keep them in the old country. They are worse than the people who are [indistinct 00:22:19]. They killing each other. They are killing each other. And all the while boys are in jail. Now, what is that called? What is that for? And you know [indistinct 00:22:36] take them out and give them a job, and make them go to work. I said, they need to work, and they didn't want to work. And what's the difference? [indistinct 00:22:53] work when they don't want to work.	21:42
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	And I went to [indistinct 00:23:03] all the boys hanging out [indistinct 00:23:13] and said they have no jobs. Now, you could [indistinct 00:23:20] the city can make them clean up the city and [indistinct 00:23:28] minimum wage.	22:55
Blair Murphy	Was there a time when you were growing up where people didn't have jobs? What would they do? Or was there always work?	23:30
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	[indistinct 00:23:41] always been some work. We had a box factory [indistinct 00:23:46] brown factory [indistinct 00:23:50]. It's always been somewhere for the work. Now, and [indistinct 00:23:59] they didn't have to make nobody work, because everybody wanted to earn something. Now they don't want to earn nothing, because they see [indistinct 00:24:14] easy way out. Selling dope, stealing [indistinct 00:24:22] they make it. People stealing and taking other folks money. I don't know [indistinct 00:24:37]. And I think anybody in authority [indistinct 00:24:44] like the president, he's trying to help.	23:41
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	He's trying to help. And so many people [indistinct 00:24:53]. Do you know that? I don't know why they against him. And they bring up some of the worst things, talking about [indistinct 00:25:04]. Everybody is human, yes. And is nobody perfect. And why do they talk about the president like they do?	24:48
Blair Murphy	They didn't say stuff like that when you were younger?	25:26
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	No. The only one I knew that they said something about after he was [indistinct 00:25:38] dead talking about Kennedy. And that [indistinct 00:25:48]. Yeah. I didn't believe that. [indistinct 00:25:57] looking for publicity.	25:31
Blair Murphy	Where did you [indistinct 00:26:01] when you were younger? What newspapers?	26:00
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	[indistinct 00:26:11] dispatch, [indistinct 00:26:15]. They said scandalous things about people. What's his name? That movie star. [indistinct 00:26:40] scandalous things [indistinct 00:26:43]. Who can I say they talked about? [indistinct 00:26:59]. [indistinct 00:27:09] saved my life. Anyway. They said something. But I don't think [indistinct 00:27:22] of degrading the president. I'm talking about because they didn't say anything about anybody.	26:11
Blair Murphy	So people respected the people more? People like FDR.	27:39
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah. Yes. And they [indistinct 00:28:18]. [indistinct 00:28:18] is terrible. It's terrible. It's terrible media. Terrible. [indistinct 00:28:21] when they talk about [indistinct 00:28:26]	28:09
Blair Murphy	Huh?	28:25
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	The presidents [indistinct 00:28:28]. Yeah. Now she's crazy. But if she [indistinct 00:28:35] and say [indistinct 00:28:39] tried to say she got [indistinct 00:28:41] and everything. That's terrible.	28:30
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:28:46] said that your name, Vannie, was a slave name.	28:46
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah.	28:49
Blair Murphy	What did she mean by that?	28:50
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Mrs. Annie Jackson, she was our schoolteacher. And she said, "I have two people who've got slave names." My name was Wendy, what I thought my name was Wanda. You know, Wanda. And she said I had a slave name, and another girl had a slave name. She said, "Etta." Our teacher. And she said, "I'm going to name you—or change your name." I said, "No, you can't change my name."I said, "My name is Wendy." She said, "It's not going to be Wendy no more, I'm going to change your name to Vannie." And I said, "What you mean?" She said, "Vannie. My name is Annie and I'm going to change your name to Vannie."	29:03
Blair Murphy	Why did she think your name was a slave name?	30:16
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	I don't know. And the other girl, her name was Etta Green. And she named her Nina Green.	30:22
Blair Murphy	So she associated those names with slaves?	30:30
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Slaves. Yeah. Slaves. She said so, yeah, she did. And she changed my name on the day that I went to school from Wendy to Vannie. And I've been Vannie ever since. But I knew my name was Henrietta.	30:33
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	30:56
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	But she didn't call me—	30:56
Blair Murphy	So Henrietta is not your middle name?	30:56
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Huh?	30:56
Blair Murphy	Is Henrietta your middle name?	31:02
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Yeah, that's my name, Henrietta.	31:03
Blair Murphy	Is your first name?	31:08
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Uh-huh (affirmative).	31:10
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	31:10
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	But I always put it Vannie Rietta, or Henrietta.	31:10
Blair Murphy	Okay.	31:10
Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup	Did he find that birth certificate?	31:10
Blair Murphy	No, ma'am.	31:24

Item Info

Title:

Henrietta Crudup interview recording, 1995 July 13

Date:

July 13, 1995

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Contributor:

Murphy, Blair

Description:

Name: Henrietta McCoy Crudup; Date of birth: 1918-09-16; Place of birth: Norfolk Co., VA; Occupation(s): domestic; housewife; Residence: Chesapeake, VA
Informant ID: 954; Interviewed by: Blair Murphy.

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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114a37e7-e165-49a7-9de2-ac7963d23632
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Henrietta Crudup interview recording, 1995 July 13

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1. Henrietta Crudup administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Henrietta Crudup interview recording, 1995 July 13

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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