Rosie Bynum (primary interviewee) and Alice Ewing interview recording, 1995 July 26

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Paul Ortiz	I'll start with you. Mrs. Bynum.	0:02
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That's right.	0:03
Paul Ortiz	Can you tell me when you were born and what community you grew up in?	0:04
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Sure can. I was born in 1913, in Noxubee County. Macon, Mississippi was a town.	0:09
Paul Ortiz	And Mrs. Bynum, what was it like growing up in Macon, Mississippi?	0:23
Rosie Heaven Bynum	It was rough. Them folks out there, rough up there. My mama had to wash and iron for these White folks. You had to go one or two miles and take them clothes and put them in a basket or sack and put them on her head and tote them home and wash them and iron them and take them back to their house and go in the back for a $1.50 maybe. It moved up to $3 a day. That way, and she used to sit down and sew like something piece quilt, do this for 'em They used to give her a little meal because she was a single woman.They used to give her a little meal, a little flour, a little molasses, anything to help raise her poor children, me, her and a son and another daughter. That was in Macon, Mississippi.	0:28
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Ewing, can you tell me when you were born?	1:21
Alice Ewing	April the 4th, 1927. Same place she was born.	1:25
Paul Ortiz	That's by Macon, Mississippi. And I guess this is really for both of you, what was the Black community like when you were growing up in Mississippi?	1:35
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, they all was like I was and couldn't do much and couldn't do nothing, and all the White people was over them and if they didn't work for them and didn't do right, they would go to the house and lash them and make them work. Yeah, that's true.	1:49
Alice Ewing	Same thing [indistinct 00:02:08].	2:05
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That's true. We grew up together. It's true.	2:08
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:02:16] she's my sister [indistinct 00:02:19], she helped raise me too.	2:15
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. I raised her. She started staying with me, she was five. I was about 19, I had gotten married. She started staying with me when she was five, to nurse my baby so I could work at the White folks' house for nothing. She would do the nursing, and I would do the work. And then get no pay.	2:19
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, what was your first experience the first time you noticed the racism, the segregation? What was the first time?	2:41
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I think that was after I had moved to the delta. I had moved to the delta. I moved to the delta in '48, because I stayed [indistinct 00:03:04] '47 and it was so rough down there, I moved back to the hill. After I got back to the hill, back to Macon, I turned round and moved back in '47, and I've been here ever since.	2:50
Paul Ortiz	Ok.	3:14
Alice Ewing	I moved in [indistinct 00:03:20].	3:17
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, how old were you when you started working for White people?	3:27
Rosie Heaven Bynum	16, because I got married when I was 16 and I went in their house. And they raised, you know, back yonder, they take the children and do like they wanted, so these White people raised my husband, and then when I married him one day, I had to go work in their house. I had to work [indistinct 00:03:52]. I was 16.	3:34
Paul Ortiz	And had your mother done the same work before you?	3:54
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, my mother hadn't worked like that. Only thing my mother had worked sharecroppers and washed and ironed, and doing things so forth like that for e'm. I was a house maid, worked round at the house.	3:57
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, what did your parents do to make a living at this time?	4:15
Rosie Heaven Bynum	With the crops, sharecrop.	4:18
Paul Ortiz	Sharecrop.	4:21
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Uh-huh. Sometimes they would get something and sometimes the boss man would say, "You owe me." They could come out in debt.	4:22
Paul Ortiz	What could a Black sharecropper do if he or she felt like it was an unfair settlement?	4:33
Rosie Heaven Bynum	They couldn't do nothing about it. Nothing they could do but take it.	4:41
Alice Ewing	We didn't hardly know where the store was where they had that meat and meal—	4:49
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Had that around the house on a little place called the commissary. They'd call you up there, give you a strip of fat back meat, half a bushel of meal, a peck of meal, according to your family.	4:56
Paul Ortiz	Okay. So it was like a company store?	5:07
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah.	5:09
Paul Ortiz	Okay. What was the name, ladies, of the plantation that—	5:12
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That I was on?	5:15
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	5:15
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I can tell you, S-W-A-N-N, Swanns Plantation in Macon, Mississippi.	5:15
Paul Ortiz	Okay. So a Mr. Swann owned it?	5:26
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. He owned it.	5:29
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Bynum, since you were the first who experienced it, were there incidents of White violence against Black people—	5:38
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yeah.	5:52
Alice Ewing	In the 60s, when I was living on the farm, when those Freedom Rider folks come in, they didn't want us to cooperate with them—	6:05
Rosie Heaven Bynum	They didn't want us. We didn't cooperate with them, because if we had cooperated with them, they was going to make us move like they did them folks on Strike City. That's when we got a place called Strike City out there. They went to Mr. Andrews, and all the people on Andrews went up and asked him for a raise because they wasn't getting [indistinct 00:06:24]. He got mad and gave them so many minutes to get off the plantation. So the people that done it, they hired them in Rays Church out on Strike City, but they soon put up some tents and let the families move in the tent. Then after that, they build the houses. They got some houses out there. I reckon the governor gave them to them. They called it Strike City. [indistinct 00:06:51] what they give them. Because Mr. Andrews gave them so long to get off his plantation after they asked for a raise.	6:10
Paul Ortiz	And Mrs. Bynum, that happened in 1960s, Strike City?	7:01
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. In the 60s. And I was living at [indistinct 00:07:08]. You was on Dicken, wasn't you?	7:04
Alice Ewing	Mm-hmm.	7:10
Rosie Heaven Bynum	And they come up and wanted me to go to the meeting. Well, I wanted to go to the meeting but I was afraid to go because if [indistinct 00:07:22] Walkers farm had known that I was going to the meeting, he was going to make me move. And then I had a house full of children. I didn't have nowhere to go. So I stayed there, I didn't go.	7:11
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	7:30
Alice Ewing	They tried. They tried. I went to the meeting some but my boss man did her the same way. I was the only person. I didn't have no husband. I had to be over, I was the head over my house and they told us, if we go out there, they would put us out. I was shy. I wouldn't go but they told me if I come [indistinct 00:08:02]. I had a house out there too, but see, I was shy because wasn't nothing out there but [indistinct 00:08:15] folks. I was shy to leave from off the White man's place and go with the [indistinct 00:08:15] folks, because see, I'd have been on somebody's, out there with no kin, you know?	7:32
Rosie Heaven Bynum	My husband was living at that time, he was on a [indistinct 00:08:16]. People with their [indistinct 00:08:16]. I couldn't go but I wanted to go. I wanted to go bad but I couldn't, because Walkers farm was going to throw me over too.	8:15
Paul Ortiz	Yeah. Mrs. Bynum, you were living in Washington County at this time.	8:38
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yes, sir.	8:44
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	8:45
Rosie Heaven Bynum	It was Washington County.	8:45
Paul Ortiz	And Mrs. Ewing, were you living in the same place?	8:47
Alice Ewing	Mm-hmm.	8:51
Rosie Heaven Bynum	She was out on John Dicken out there, and I was at Stone [indistinct 00:09:00] out here.	8:51
Paul Ortiz	Okay, and that was in the 60s.	9:00
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah.	9:00
Paul Ortiz	I wonder ladies, if I could ask you about the earlier days when you were growing up. Was there that same kind of violence against Black people?	9:00
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. It was the same kind of violence against Black people but these governor people [indistinct 00:09:23] had them coming through that. You know they tried to show us the right way or tried to tell us what to do. See, they didn't come through. They didn't come there in the 60s yet. If they come through, I didn't know it, but know in the 60s, they came through.	9:12
Paul Ortiz	Okay. It would be the Freedom Riders.	9:37
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. I called them the Freedom Riders.	9:39
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Bynum, what about when you were growing up, ma'am? Were there cases of lynchings in Washington County?	9:44
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yes. I wasn't in Washington County. I was in Noxubee County.	9:54
Paul Ortiz	Noxubee County?	9:55
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. That's where I grew up at. I was grown when I come to Washington County.	9:58
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Were there those kinds of lynchings in Noxubee County?	10:04
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah.	10:09
Paul Ortiz	Can you tell me about some of them?	10:09
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. If you didn't do what they want you to do, they would've lynched you. Yeah. They would get you and lynch you. They would lynch you good.	10:11
Paul Ortiz	What were some of the examples, Mrs. Bynum? What could a Black person get lynched for?	10:20
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Anything they tell them to do and they didn't do it, they'd arrest and lynch you.	10:28
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:10:34].	10:31
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I was always kind of on the little smart side. I could always do things, but things they would ask you to do, you wouldn't want to do it.	10:39
Paul Ortiz	What were some of those things, Mrs. Bynum, that you didn't want to do?	10:49
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, I said it's one thing to leave my children at my house, my little babies staying at my house alone by themself and grew up there because I had to wait on them and their children. Mine down there in the house by themself. My babies and things down there in the house by themself. And I'm up there in the house waiting on them and their children.	10:51
Alice Ewing	And they could fool with our cousins and you couldn't fool with their cousins.	11:07
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No. They didn't like it. And time the little children get 10 years old, it's Miss this, Miss that, Miss this and Mister that and Mister that and Mister that, because one time when Billy was there, you know I nursed Billy, you know the one got his legs run over up there. And then the woman called me and told me, "Mister Bubba said heat him some bathwater." I said, "What?" Mister Bubba say—Who is Mister Bubba? Talking about Billy? Because see, I had raised the little boy, little White boy. I had raised him and played with him, loved him. I loved him because I had took care of him. When you take care of something, you like it, even if it's a cat and a dog. If you take care of that and [indistinct 00:11:59] you like it. Well I liked the little boy but I didn't want them to come up and tell me Mister Billy.	11:22
Paul Ortiz	How old was he, Mrs. Bynum?	12:05
Rosie Heaven Bynum	About 12 years old.	12:10
Paul Ortiz	He was 12 and they wanted you to call him Mister?	12:10
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Wanted me to call him Mister. Mister Billy said heat him some bathwater. I said, "What?" Mister Billy said [indistinct 00:12:19]. You talked about Billy? Bubba? See, we all called him Bubba. I said, "You talking about Bubba?" Uh-uh, no. I didn't like that. I lived there too.	12:11
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Ewing now, Mrs. Bynum has been talking about her experiences working for White people—	12:31
Alice Ewing	Well, I've been trying to tell the truth, I ain't done too much work because I come here [indistinct 00:12:42].	12:37
Rosie Heaven Bynum	You was my babysitter.	12:41
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:12:49] I'm five years.	12:45
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No, you 14.	12:45
Alice Ewing	I'm talking about I was slightly then older child and I stayed at home and sit and played with her children, and I had a baby when I got 15. But see, I was in the city of [indistinct 00:13:06]. She knows [indistinct 00:13:07].	12:51
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I don't forget. I don't forget how I [indistinct 00:13:15].	13:06
Alice Ewing	But she older than me though but—	13:14
Rosie Heaven Bynum	14 years older but I can remember.	13:20
Alice Ewing	But I can't remember how [indistinct 00:13:29] I come up. It was hard.	13:24
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, I wonder if you could tell me, what kind of challenges did Black women face when you were growing up? Was there the violence from White men? Did they try to take indecencies with Black women?	13:35
Alice Ewing	Mm-hmm.	13:50
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Some of them did, yes. Some of them did.	13:51
Alice Ewing	Sure did. I had two come to my house. That was scary. That was in the 60s somewhere along down on the bog. He killed a Colored boy up there in [indistinct 00:14:14].	13:51
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Emmett Till?	13:51
Alice Ewing	Emmett Till, the Colored boy—	13:51
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That boy from Chicago. I won't forget it [indistinct 00:14:20].	13:51
Alice Ewing	They come in, tried to make me out with my daughter, because see, wasn't nothing but just me and my children. I didn't have no husband. Me and my husband had separated.	14:20
Paul Ortiz	So they tried to break in?	14:32
Alice Ewing	They did. Mm-hmm. They tried to break in on me. (knock at door) Come on.	14:34
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, now when you were growing up, did that same kind of thing happen to Black women?	14:51
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah, it's happened to Black women. Yeah. They would take advantage of them. And the Black women couldn't do nothing about it. Sure did.	14:57
Paul Ortiz	Now, if a Black woman was working at a private household, was that a real concern—	15:11
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Some of them sure were.	15:19
Alice Ewing	Some of them, yeah.	15:19
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Some of them sure were, that they worked at the private house. That's why (phone rings)	15:22
Alice Ewing	They said something [indistinct 00:15:36].	15:35
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Huh? Betty ain't here. Alice is here, but hold on, call her back again. We in a meeting with this man. Okay. I'll help. Okay. Put your eyedrops in your eye.	15:38
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:15:53].	15:48
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Okay. [indistinct 00:15:57].	15:48
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, I wonder now, when you were growing up, and particularly you, Mrs. Bynum, did your mother take you aside and warn you about those kinds of issues when you—	15:59
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Sure did.	16:26
Paul Ortiz	What would she say to you?	16:26
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Sure did. I had a sweet mother. She would tell me not only warn me about those kind, she warned me about any kind, because she was a single woman. She had us both and she know how hard she was doing. She didn't want us to come up there and bring no more babies because she couldn't work for us all.	16:26
Paul Ortiz	Okay. So did she tell you strategies to use if you were indecently propositioned?	16:36
Rosie Heaven Bynum	She just told me just don't even fool with them. She didn't tell me use the strategy. She just told me don't mess with them. And I didn't. I did just like she told me.	16:42
Paul Ortiz	What kinds of values, Mrs. Ewing and Mrs. Bynum, did your mother teach you when you were growing up?	16:56
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, my mama, she taught me a lot. She taught me how to go out there in the field and work. She taught me how to go and be obedient and nice and take care of myself. She taught me how to sew, how to piece quilt. I got a little girl, little granddaughter, right now fixing to go to college. Fixing to go to Jackson State on the 12th of next month and I'm at home right now sewing, fixing her clothes because I'm 81 years old but my mama taught me and I ain't forgot it. I piece quilts, I do all this right now. A lot of things my mother taught me. I do that all right now. I ain't forgot her teaching.	17:06
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I go to church after what she taught me. I go to church [indistinct 00:17:50] and I guess I'm doing good because I'm on a fixed income. My little girl didn't have no way to go to college but the law fixed itself. She was smart enough to win a $20,000 scholarship, plus another $250 scholarship, plus another $500 scholarship, plus another $100 scholarship. So she's ready to get off to college on the 14th of August and don't cost me a penny, because I taught her like my mama taught me.	17:44
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, I wonder if you could tell me what the Black community was like when you were growing up? Did Black families share with each other when times were hard?	18:24
Alice Ewing	Yes, sir.	18:32
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yes, sir. That's the way some of us live. Because see, if I didn't have nothing, like she had the cows and she was a little over me, she had a little more than I had, she would share, you know? She would give me milk and butter, give me this and give me that. Because I told you, that's the way my mother raised us. People were sharing with her, giving her this and giving her that. Some folks was fortunate than she was. You had something and I needed, you could give me soap or something like that. That was sharing, yeah. They would share then but they don't share now.	18:34
Paul Ortiz	Would that also work if one of you took sick? Would another family maybe help you out?	19:12
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Sure would. Sure would.	19:17
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Bynum, when you were growing up, if you took sick, what would your parents do if you had a cold or—	19:26
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Go get some cold oil, some turpentine, something of everything, and make up something. You could cut your feet on something, they would put the salt and cold oil on that, and bind it up with a rag. There you go, because we didn't know about going to the doctor, getting them stitches and things. [indistinct 00:20:03]. That's right.	19:39
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Now Mrs. Ewing, by the time you came on the scene, was that still practiced?	20:03
Alice Ewing	Same, same way. Because she's just five years older than—	20:08
Rosie Heaven Bynum	14.	20:08
Alice Ewing	14 years older. [indistinct 00:20:09].	20:08
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No. [indistinct 00:20:25] between me and you. You the baby.	20:09
Alice Ewing	I'm the baby.	20:26
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Lee is the oldest. Then I'm next. Lee is seven years older than me. Then I'm seven years older than Moonlight. Moonlight is seven years older than you. Then that makes me be 14 years older than you.	20:29
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, what had changed in your family during those 14 years, Mrs. Bynum between the time you were born and Mrs. Ewing between the time you were born? Was your family living in a different place? Were you better off or—	20:42
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No. It was the same thing when we were born.	20:57
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	20:58
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Because she lived in the same place.	20:58
Paul Ortiz	Same place.	20:58
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Same house. Same raggedy house.	20:58
Paul Ortiz	So conditions were pretty much the same?	21:08
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. We had plank floors [indistinct 00:21:16] I don't know what you call them, 14 by seven, you had. This is a plank, there's a plank and they'd be so wide apart, if you're sweeping up the floor, if you didn't have some heavy trash, you could sweep the dirt right through the floor, and it'd go on the ground. Then one of them was the same way, had cracks like that. If you shut the one, you could look out the other one. Had a [indistinct 00:21:43] and you could wrap it around there with the fastener on the one.	21:12
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Ladies, when you were both growing up, how did the Black community get the news from the outside world?	21:49
Rosie Heaven Bynum	They didn't get none. We didn't know nothing.	21:59
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:22:04].	22:01
Rosie Heaven Bynum	We were blind. We didn't know nothing.	22:03
Alice Ewing	They didn't say nothing they didn't want the Colored folks see that [indistinct 00:22:18].	22:17
Rosie Heaven Bynum	At that time, it was newspapers, we didn't get them, you know? [indistinct 00:22:21] them rich folk might got them but I ain't seen no newspaper until I come down to delta and went to buy a newspaper my own.	22:19
Paul Ortiz	Was there radios? Did anybody have a radio?	22:29
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, I [indistinct 00:22:35].	22:32
Alice Ewing	I didn't. I had [indistinct 00:22:38].	22:34
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I had had a radio once. [indistinct 00:22:42] become electric, and I didn't have no electric lights in my house so I couldn't use the radio. And Henry used to take [indistinct 00:23:03]. I ain't have no radio until I moved to [indistinct 00:23:14] and that was about in '60 something.	22:38
Alice Ewing	I had radio and TV there [indistinct 00:23:14].	23:14
Rosie Heaven Bynum	You had one when you [indistinct 00:23:14].	23:14
Alice Ewing	That one I had [indistinct 00:23:14].	23:14
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I didn't have none [indistinct 00:23:15]. We didn't have electric light or nothing. We had lamp light and balls. You could take a ball and put a top on that and take your rag like this and put a wick in it, and put the oil down there, no globe, no nothing.	23:14
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:23:35].	23:29
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Ewing, when you did get a radio, what kinds of shows did you like to listen to?	23:37
Alice Ewing	I was so glad, I just listened to [indistinct 00:23:43]. Yes, sir. I listened to [indistinct 00:23:53] time I get up in the morning [indistinct 00:23:57] it go off and on.	23:41
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, would a lot of people in the Black community listen to the boxing matches, like Joe Louis, Joe Louis fights?	24:02
Alice Ewing	Yeah. I used to listen to that after I got that. Joe Louis fights, and who was that [indistinct 00:24:19] used to listen to about "Peas and Cornbread had a fight, peas knocked cornbread out of sight. Peas told cornbread, that's all right, I'll meet you around the hill tomorrow night." Yeah. I used to listen to them funny things like that. Sure did.	24:12
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	24:34
Alice Ewing	Glad to listen to it.	24:36
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, earlier you were talking about sewing and I wondered, when you were growing up, were a lot of Black people quilting and—	24:40
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That's right. That's all they did. That's all they know to do. That's all they know to do. We would piece quilt. I would piece 10 or 12. She would piece 10 or 12. The next family. So we all would get together and quilt a quilt. Maybe I'd put one here in my house. She'd put one here in her house. Somebody would put one on their house. We kept them three out that day. Okay, tomorrow, the next day, we go to the next fellow house and quilt. Yeah, we did a lot of that. All of us getting together did that. That was a little community thing for us Black folk. We all would gang together and sew at this person house, at that person house, at that person house. Pop popcorn, and cards, peanuts, and bake taters. So we used to raise a lot of taters and peanuts and things. Some of us would be babysitting—	24:51
Rosie Heaven Bynum	(phone rings) Hello. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Wait. We in a meeting right now. Yeah, she got the package. She'll call you back. Okay.	25:39
Rosie Heaven Bynum	She asked did you get your package [indistinct 00:25:57].	25:55
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, now was the quilting something that women and men did together? Was it—	26:00
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Nope. Ladies.	26:06
Paul Ortiz	Ladies.	26:06
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Mm-hmm.	26:07
Paul Ortiz	And what kinds of stories would you tell when you were quilting?	26:09
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Everything. We talked about everything. Everything. Talked about everything. Everything we could think of.	26:16
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, when you we're growing up, what role did the church play in your family's life?	26:27
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, we went to church but the church couldn't play too much a role because we didn't have nothing to pay the church, and the church have nothing to give us. We went to church though. I've been in church all my life. Still go. But the church role didn't pay nothing because we wasn't paying them then. We didn't have nothing to pay them.	26:43
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:26:55] we paying something now. They ain't rolling in the [indistinct 00:27:02]. They'd have a certain soldier there go to the [indistinct 00:27:15].	27:10
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I believe [indistinct 00:27:21] trying to get back that way. [indistinct 00:27:25].	27:19
Paul Ortiz	Which church did your family go to?	27:27
Rosie Heaven Bynum	My family went to Drake Hill, in Noxubee County, they went to Drake Hill United Methodist church. And then my father's people went to Mount Zion Baptist Church. But after I came here to the delta, I went to Saint James down here, African Methodist Episcopal church. I go to a African Methodist church down here.	27:30
Alice Ewing	I've been in a Baptist church ever since I've been here.	27:55
Rosie Heaven Bynum	My little daughter off on a African Methodist Episcopal something or other now, in Jackson, Mississippi. She down there in the church right now, the one who's trying to go to college. I hope they help her. I think she's running for a $2000 scholarship down there. I hope she win it.	28:03
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, when you were growing up, did stories and experiences that your grandparents have, did they pass down to you?	28:24
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. They talk about the things that happened to them [indistinct 00:28:42]. Yeah. They told me about it.	28:36
Paul Ortiz	What would they talk about?	28:44
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Talk about how the folks [indistinct 00:28:47]. How they whooped them and how they worked them and what they done. That's the biggest story they could tell. They talked about all of that talk. It was a little better when they come along than it was when I came along.	28:46
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, what would you say are the main differences between their time and then your time?	29:05
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, they had a harder time than I had, because it had got a little bit better when I came along.	29:12
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:29:20] going back to that too. [indistinct 00:29:24].	29:12
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Ewing, now when you were growing up a few years later, did you hear stories that elders in the community would tell about when they grew up?	29:26
Alice Ewing	Well now, my mama told me, she said when she was coming up, her parents were in front of her, that they were back in slaves, if you'd get sick, they'd put you all by yourself. You had to go to see them. If you pick your 100 pounds of cotton, you had to pick their 100 pounds after that. And said her mama told her [indistinct 00:30:03], my sister said she helped raised a White. She would play a little White girl and the girl come in to see where my grandma was, and she went to playing with the girl and then she got behind in her cotton, she didn't pick what she was supposed to pick. And the little girl got in the bag, she put the cotton over the little girl, give her, you know, weigh her. But, you know, it was so much that it wasn't found. And when they pulled the cotton and pulled it til they got [indistinct 00:30:45] then the little girl hop out.	29:38
Alice Ewing	But there was a [indistinct 00:30:51] my grandma but as it was [indistinct 00:30:58]. Mama said when her mama said [indistinct 00:31:07] so you know different [indistinct 00:31:08] you had to have a pass to go from, that said "I want to leave from here in good time—"	30:53
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I don't want to tell him how they say the pass read because he's a White folk.	31:11
Alice Ewing	He want all of it. That's what he's here for.	31:20
Rosie Heaven Bynum	You want me to tell you how the pass read?	31:22
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	31:25
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, if Alice wanted to go, somebody would read the pass. "White man, White man, read your pass."	31:26
Alice Ewing	No. It didn't say no White man.	31:30
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah, because you going over to Miss Porter. And then if they said "White man, White man, read Alice pass. White man, White man, let Alice pass." Well if they didn't want Alice to pass, they'll say "White man, White man, read Alice pass. White man, White man, whoop Alice ass."	31:31
Alice Ewing	That's what Mama said.	31:49
Paul Ortiz	That's what it said on the pass?	31:53
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah.	31:54
Alice Ewing	Mm-hmm.	31:54
Rosie Heaven Bynum	See, some of us though couldn't read. They didn't know. If you couldn't read, you don't know what the man is telling. See if it had been like me, and I was the one that told them, whoop my ass, I would have turn [indistinct 00:32:03].	31:55
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:32:03].	32:00
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I say I would've went back. I wouldn't have went.	32:03
Alice Ewing	Yes [indistinct 00:32:12].	32:11
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Lord, yeah. [indistinct 00:32:14] Jim Crow. I done rode the bus too many days and had to get on that back seat, that long back seat, and the short two front seats, and this White line down here, and you better not come on the White line. If the whole bus was empty, you got to go to the back because you couldn't sit up there with the White folk. White folk had the bus but you had the long Black seat back there, about three or four folk could sit on, had this short seat there and that short seat here. I looked up here [indistinct 00:32:41] right now, you know right now if you go out in a [indistinct 00:32:46] I'm sitting in here and the White folk over there. And sometimes when you go in these doctors, they'll wait on everybody White. I don't care how long you been there because I done got up many days and said, "You got to wait on me." [indistinct 00:33:00] if they don't wait on me, see, I'm quick tempered. I get up and go home.	32:12
Paul Ortiz	So some of them are still segregated?	33:04
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. Still segregated—	33:14
Alice Ewing	It's a little bit better but—	33:14
Rosie Heaven Bynum	It's a little bit better [indistinct 00:33:15]. Yeah. I looked up here about this club waiting room, and yeah, that's true.	33:18
Alice Ewing	That's true. Some of them still is [indistinct 00:33:22].	33:18
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, when you were growing up, did you ever have any difficulties when you were trying to travel with the Jim Crow laws?	33:24
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I didn't travel. I couldn't travel. I had nowhere to go. I didn't have nothing to go with. The only time I started, I was in Columbus, what, in '43?	33:34
Alice Ewing	Mm-hmm.	33:39
Rosie Heaven Bynum	'53. And they was 40, when y'all were down here in the delta, and that's when I started traveling on the boss. I was grown. I was a grown woman by then. When I was a child, there wasn't no way.	33:41
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:33:53].	33:52
Rosie Heaven Bynum	We'd walk to the field and schools by foot to get [indistinct 00:33:58].	33:52
Alice Ewing	I come down here in that time and we did have one [indistinct 00:34:05] here's a long seat, but just one seat [indistinct 00:34:09] and we had [indistinct 00:34:12].	33:58
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I had a curtain.	34:13
Alice Ewing	A curtain.	34:13
Rosie Heaven Bynum	So we couldn't see the White folk—	34:14
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:34:18] who be sitting in that middle seat in the aisle where you could see [indistinct 00:34:25].	34:18
Rosie Heaven Bynum	And you had a White line. If the bus got crowded, the White folk could stand to the line right here, but if the bus was crowded and you got on there, you couldn't stand up. You couldn't get over that line. You couldn't go over the White line. They got some line in the buses now. [indistinct 00:34:40]. Still, you can sit where you want. Because I go to Chicago [indistinct 00:34:42]. I sit where I want. Anywhere I can get a seat. I don't have to go to the back. [indistinct 00:34:59].	34:24
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, when you were growing up, what would happen—what would a sharecropping family do if they just got into so much debt they knew they couldn't pay it out?	34:59
Rosie Heaven Bynum	You just had to stay there and work on it. Stay there and and work on it.	35:13
Alice Ewing	Waiting on until you get—	35:18
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Waiting on until you get out.	35:18
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:35:23].	35:18
Rosie Heaven Bynum	And maybe sometimes molasses.	35:18
Alice Ewing	Salt meat.	35:18
Paul Ortiz	What would happen, would sharecroppers slip away sometimes?	35:32
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. They would run away, because I'll tell you about [indistinct 00:35:43]. I was staying down there on [indistinct 00:35:43]. I moved by night to Stonewood, to Walkers farm.	35:36
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	35:49
Rosie Heaven Bynum	And that ain't been too long ago. That was in, what, 60s, 50s? I left by night, because I was working, making all that cotton and stuff up there, and it had got so complicated, what you had to eat out if you pick a bale of cotton and you know you get the [indistinct 00:36:14] you could buy something to eat. It had got too complicated there, and I had a baby. I couldn't get milk. I couldn't do nothing. When I left there that day, I had one [indistinct 00:36:24] ticket. I went up there and made like my baby wanted some milk so bad. I wanted [indistinct 00:36:28] ticket. So the man went in and get me the [indistinct 00:36:31] I know what I done. [indistinct 00:36:33]. I went on back home and [indistinct 00:36:35] Walkers farm and started picking cotton [indistinct 00:36:38] me and my children. See, I go to field everyday. [indistinct 00:36:43]. That's what put me on a [indistinct 00:36:46]. And I stayed at the Walkers farm until I moved here [indistinct 00:36:49].	35:49
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	36:48
Alice Ewing	I worked a whole week with [indistinct 00:36:54] for $11.95—	36:48
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That's all us was getting $12. Let me see, out in the field.	36:58
Alice Ewing	A whole week. [indistinct 00:37:05] Larry was working. [indistinct 00:37:09] was working. Honest people working. Jerry Hill was.	37:01
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I wasn't getting but $12 a week.	37:07
Alice Ewing	I'd get $11.95 [indistinct 00:37:18] and give me the other 95. I'd go to [indistinct 00:37:22] at 6:00, get off at 11:00. Go back there at 1:00—	37:21
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Go home and cook over the hot stove—	37:30
Alice Ewing	And go back—	37:34
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Eat bread and greens and eat that and go right back in the field and stay out there until 6:00 in the evening. That's it.	37:34
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, that was in the 1950s?	37:39
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. 1950s and 60s.	37:41
Alice Ewing	Mm-hmm. [indistinct 00:37:47].	37:41
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, now you had to leave the plantation at night.	37:47
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I left there at night. Right down the road down here. I guess if you walk right down there, you know, but it's called Dean's plantation right down that road down there.	37:51
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Can you tell me, were you able to get help from anybody?	38:03
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Get help? [indistinct 00:38:10]. No. I didn't have to get no help from nobody because see, when I moved, I had went up there and got the [indistinct 00:38:17]. And then I had done bought me a little [indistinct 00:38:21]. When I went onto Stonewood like the night, the next day, I went to the field. Me and my children was picking cotton. Well the Friday, they paid me off. They gave me my money and then I could go to the store and buy what I want. I moved out. I went by night for [indistinct 00:38:36].	38:09
Paul Ortiz	What evening did you leave? What night was it?	38:37
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I don't know. I really don't know. But I know [indistinct 00:38:43] and they had my children up to the church, and I was [indistinct 00:38:49] when they come by there to drop my children off, I took my children [indistinct 00:38:54].	38:41
Paul Ortiz	So you left your children at church.	38:55
Rosie Heaven Bynum	My children was at church while me and my husband, and the truck driver [indistinct 00:39:02] loading up the stock. See, the people who got [indistinct 00:39:05] the White man, so I left my children when I went to the church, and they stayed up there. When they brought the children back home and dropped them off, the truck was on the back. They didn't know I was loaded. They just dropped the children off and the children, they went on home. The children come in the house, we got in the truck and left.	38:57
Paul Ortiz	Okay. So Mrs. Bynum, someone helped you load your truck up—	39:22
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. [indistinct 00:39:27] sent two men on the truck and they popped the truck on the back because they didn't want the folks to see. See, if the folks had seen, they'd would've got up and tell the Deans. So they didn't see the truck.	39:24
Paul Ortiz	So Walker was the plantation owner?	39:42
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah.	39:44
Paul Ortiz	Okay. So one plantation owner helped you leave the other plantation.	39:45
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That's right. Walkers farm [indistinct 00:39:51]. I don't care what you say. I like [indistinct 00:39:55] because he helped me to get from there. And then see, I went on up there. It was me, Honest B, and Jerry Lee, and Reed. Us went up there and went to picking cotton by [indistinct 00:40:10]. And then I had a son grown, and Honest and him done went out there and went to work [indistinct 00:40:18]. So that's sad that I thought I was rich. I had plenty money. [indistinct 00:40:22].	39:49
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, the people you're talking about are your brothers and sisters?	40:21
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No. Those are my children.	40:28
Paul Ortiz	Your children, okay. Your children.	40:29
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Those are my children.	40:34
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	40:34
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I'm the mother of 14 children. I had plenty of children.	40:34
Paul Ortiz	So you were afraid that when you were loading the truck, you were afraid that some of the other families—	40:37
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Some of the other Black folk would see it and tell it, and go up there and tell the White man. But [indistinct 00:40:50] didn't nobody see me. I got away. Where I got away, they wasn't coming up there.	40:43
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Did the people in the church know what you were planning?	40:58
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Nope. Nobody knew it. Because if they had knew it, they would've told it. Them would've told it, because you know [indistinct 00:41:10]. They would've told it.	41:00
Paul Ortiz	So the church, you really couldn't trust the people in the church?	41:15
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No. You don't trust nobody in the church. Church is as devilish as it can be. I don't trust them. I go to church and I don't trust them. I don't trust the preacher.	41:19
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, when you were growing up, did farmers, sharecroppers, did you use signs to plant by?	41:32
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Not [indistinct 00:41:46]. See, when time to plant, they just said plant. So my husband would go out there and plant my crop, you see. You would plant your crop because I would plant my crop. Something like that. They just told them what time to plant it. They'd go out there and plant it. [indistinct 00:42:01].	41:44
Alice Ewing	Signs for when you raise a garden—	42:03
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I didn't whether he was using signs or not.	42:05
Alice Ewing	We had signs when we would raise a garden [indistinct 00:42:25] see a certain moon and [indistinct 00:42:25]. I said not in the—	42:24
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Not in the [indistinct 00:42:25]. And you go out there and work it.	42:24
Alice Ewing	On a full moon, new moon, first quarter, all stuff like that in the garden but I ain't never heard about no [indistinct 00:42:40].	42:39
Paul Ortiz	Okay. But in a garden, you'd use the moon. Moon would be the—	42:40
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:42:50] grow underground, be on full moon. Then that's the round moon, round.	42:52
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Ewing, were there other signs that elders talked about, like lightning striking before 7:00, meaning rain or [indistinct 00:43:14].	42:59
Alice Ewing	I had heard mama say, if it's thunders before 7:00, [indistinct 00:43:22] but I ain't hear them saying nothing about [indistinct 00:43:26]. You heard thunder in the morning before 7:00, hear the rain before 11:00. You could have [indistinct 00:43:38].	43:13
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	43:13
Rosie Heaven Bynum	You could [indistinct 00:43:45]. You won't tell nobody [indistinct 00:43:50]. I wish you would because [indistinct 00:43:53].	43:13
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:43:55].	43:13
Paul Ortiz	I'm sorry. Go ahead, Mrs. Ewing.	43:13
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:44:02] y'all was coming here, so she missed 25 hours to stay here today [indistinct 00:44:16].	44:14
Paul Ortiz	Okay. So today you were planning to go?	44:18
Alice Ewing	I was about to go but after you was coming, I stayed here.	44:19
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	44:22
Alice Ewing	He told me to stay and I love him just that much. I stayed.	44:24
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Well, I sure appreciate it. Mrs. Bynum, I guess also Mrs. Ewing, when both of you were younger ladies, do you remember any storms, bad storms or tornadoes-	44:29
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. I can remember one. I was old enough to know when—I don't know what year that stone went through Tupelo. I know one went through Tupelo two times, and tore the town up and killed all them people [indistinct 00:45:01] but I just remember what year it was, but yeah, because then at that time, you could get the newspaper and look [indistinct 00:45:07] see the wind and blow up them [indistinct 00:45:09]. See people running from different directions for shelter [indistinct 00:45:13]. I remember that. I remember seeing that.	44:47
Alice Ewing	I think I was just about grown though because I [indistinct 00:45:22] when that happened.	45:16
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Because I got [indistinct 00:45:28] see a cloud coming like that, I used to run to mama's house. I was scared to stay at home then. I didn't want to be at home.	45:29
Paul Ortiz	How about floods?	45:36
Alice Ewing	When there is high water [indistinct 00:45:43].	45:41
Rosie Heaven Bynum	In '27, I was 12. I was 12 when the water went down here in the delta at 12, because I remember when [indistinct 00:45:55] come home from [indistinct 00:45:57] my mama working with this girl's daddy for a sharecrop. And when the water got high out here, they finally got her. She come to Macon, Mississippi, her and her three little boys and stayed. Two little boys and a girl and stayed until the water come down. Because when the children come, [indistinct 00:46:15] broke out with all them sores and things [indistinct 00:46:18] scar faced from the water. I remember, I was 12 years old when the high water [indistinct 00:46:25].	45:42
Alice Ewing	I was born [indistinct 00:46:26] in '27.	46:22
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I can remember though. I know when the [indistinct 00:46:37] came from the delta up into Macon, Mississippi [indistinct 00:46:39] all the people that had family around here, they came up there.	46:26
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	46:44

Rosie Heaven Bynum	I hope Andrew [indistinct 00:00:05].	0:02
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, when you were growing up, do you remember the conditions during the Depression and the Hoover times?	0:08
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I got married on the 21st of December. I believe it was in '32 when Herbert Hoover was the president. It was. Yeah. It was rough. And I was staying with these folks you call Swann. And they would kill a lot of hogs and things. They would have you come up there and clean the chitlins and do all this. You had to do all that for nothing. And in the meantime, they would salt their meat down. They would take them hog heads, they would take the heart or—yeah, the real meaty part of the hog jowl and put it over there in the hog [indistinct 00:00:59].	0:17
Rosie Heaven Bynum	And weekend sometimes, we said when they give out the rations, if they give you a hog jowl, that was nice because you could fry that meat. But if they give you that part of the hog face, you know you cut that little piece off, you didn't have nothing but the bone. Then you was left hungry. Yeah, I can remember that. I can remember that. You couldn't get bread. [indistinct 00:01:22]. Herbert Hoover was the president.	1:02
Paul Ortiz	So things were real rough then?	1:25
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. That was in '32. I never will forget that.	1:27
Paul Ortiz	'32.	1:29
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I had a baby, and the only thing he ever got while he grew up was a pair of stockings to go on his foot. They were selling stockings for 15 cents. He never wore no shoes. Never, never.	1:33
Paul Ortiz	Was there any kind of government relief during the Depression?	1:50
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. Sometimes. [indistinct 00:01:55], she ought to know. You know when I used to go down to cabins and get that butter, them eggs. Were you grown or not?	1:54
Alice Ewing	No, I wasn't.	2:03
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Us used to go down there, and the government used to give some butter and some apples. Because one Christmas, I missed signing up. Christmas [indistinct 00:02:19]. And I missed signing up, and I didn't go down to the cabin to get mine. They tell me to make up to this place That was a big senator. I forget what his name is, but he ain't been too long passed. He was an old, old White man, and he gave me apples and things by the bushels for my children. Yeah. We got a little relief. And they give us some [indistinct 00:02:39]. Yeah. They did. Yeah, they gave us a little something. We had to go down there and make them mattresses work for them, but they gave you meat, too.	2:04
Paul Ortiz	Did sharecroppers get parity checks?	2:53
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Government check? No. If they got them, the boss man kept them.	2:57
Paul Ortiz	Boss man kept them. Even though they were supposed to get them, the boss would—	3:04
Rosie Heaven Bynum	They were supposed to get them and hand them to us. They didn't. I reckon they kept them. No, I ain't go no parity check.	3:07
Alice Ewing	No. [indistinct 00:03:14]. They don't care how many babies [indistinct 00:03:22]. I worked sharecrop with my brother-in-law.	3:08
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That was out on Romeyer.	3:08
Alice Ewing	On Romeyer.	3:08
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. I was out on Romeyer. Ms. Romeyer had me with crops. She knew it wasn't sharecropping when I was working out there. And then he lumped all of us together and made us pick that cotton, and he paid us by the 100. So then I made all this [indistinct 00:03:50]. And he was up there. My husband was up on the front that time. Ms. Romeyer was who was going to stay with him or not. And I had to go to [indistinct 00:04:03] on Monday morning to Saturday dinner. And see, I moved from Macon, Mississippi. I wasn't used to that. On Fridays, I can't go to the field. I stayed at home and cleaned up my house and tend to my children, doing the washing and things for them. But I didn't go to the field.	3:35
Rosie Heaven Bynum	So Ms. Romeyer up there [indistinct 00:04:22]. Henry done run down there and told me that Romeyer coming. So when Ms. Romeyer comes and blow [indistinct 00:04:28], "Yeah, he out here." Say, "Come on out here and tell them what to do." I said, "You wait a minute." I said, "[indistinct 00:04:31]." I had done picked cotton and had some money in my pockets. I reached up in there and got me an old coat. Nappy headed, barefooted, dirty, everything. Henry and and Thomas and them caught me up there and swings at the corner. I was in the car with Mike Barley. I had caught a ride [indistinct 00:04:55]. I was on my way back to the hill. We got out there, you talk about fighting? Me and my husband had a fight. See, he wanted me to stay there, and I didn't want to stay because I wasn't used to what I was doing.	4:18
Rosie Heaven Bynum	And I had a son about 12 or 14 years old, and he had been picking cotton. He picked so good, I had bought him a [indistinct 00:05:14]. He had his little [indistinct 00:05:15] around his waist and had the [indistinct 00:05:17] in the—And he didn't stick his dad, but he didn't like for his daddy to be hitting me. He walked by and patted him. I grabbed up [indistinct 00:05:25], "God damn it, I'm going to kill you now." Then the peoples what had us, they separated us. And then they let me come on to live. I come to Ms. Abraham [indistinct 00:05:35]. I went in the store. I bought a change of clothes. I went to the bathroom. I changed my clothes in there and pulled off them raggedy things. I bought luggage. I bought another suit of clothes. I caught that 3:00 bus, and I went back to Macon, Mississippi.	5:06
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I left there Friday evening at 3:00. Sunday morning at 8:00, I had a truck back down to Romeyer getting my [indistinct 00:06:02] back to the [indistinct 00:06:02] because I wasn't used to what I was doing. No, it was rough.	5:52
Paul Ortiz	So Mrs. Bynum, when you were in Macon, you were able to take Fridays—	6:06
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Friday off. See, I didn't have to go to the field on Friday. Most time, I would go to the field Friday [indistinct 00:06:19]. But when I wanted to, I stay up all day Friday and all day Saturday and stay at home and clean up what I had and wash and do for my children. And then go to church on Sunday, and Monday, I go back to the field.	6:14
Paul Ortiz	And that was a local custom in Macon that all of the—If you were a sharecropper, you get that day.	6:33
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. At the sharecropper [indistinct 00:06:41].	6:41
Paul Ortiz	But that wasn't true in the Delta.	6:41
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No. No. I had to go to the field from Monday morning until Saturday. Down in the field.	6:43
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Why was that so?	6:47
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I don't know. Now she was even on the same plantation, but she was working with her brother-in-law, which he was a big [indistinct 00:07:00]. She was a sharecropper. But she didn't have to do it, but I had to do it because the White man was over me and I had to do it. The other folks were doing it. I had to do it.	6:52
Paul Ortiz	So Mrs. Ewing, you were working for a Black farmer?	7:10
Alice Ewing	For my brother-in-law. When he come to the hill, I was in the hill. But his wife got down sick with [indistinct 00:07:24], and so he come to the hill and brought me down here and wait on her. [indistinct 00:07:34] she was in the hill and my mama was in the hill, and my brother, too. Wasn't nobody but him, me, and my sister. And I didn't know too much about [indistinct 00:07:43]. I didn't want to stay, and I was dreading—She was going to have a baby. And they told me I couldn't go back on the bus in that shape. I had to pay somebody $300 to carry me back. But I wasn't [indistinct 00:08:02]. I didn't know. So I had to stay here [indistinct 00:08:22]. And that what made me [indistinct 00:08:25] I was working with my brother-in-law on halves. He was [indistinct 00:08:26], and I was working for him. So he got half of everything I made.	7:13
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. Mrs. Ewing, at that time, were you plowing and chopping cotton and—	8:36
Alice Ewing	I was chopping cotton. Chopping cotton. Chopping corn. I chopped the cotton that they had. My husband and his children—See, my brother-in-law had so [indistinct 00:08:56] working with him on halves. If we made two bales, he got one and we got one. He had three children and me working on halves with him.	8:41
Paul Ortiz	Okay. So he actually owned that land.	9:11
Alice Ewing	He didn't own it. He was renting it from a White man.	9:11
Paul Ortiz	Rented it. Okay. Mrs. Bynum, when you were growing up, did you go into town a lot into Macon?	9:26
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No. I didn't know what that was. No, I didn't know. I went to a little country store called Cabbage. [indistinct 00:09:50] Macon twice a year.	9:37
Paul Ortiz	About twice a year? What would be the occasions when you'd got to Macon?	9:53
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, I know one of them times is we coming up to a [indistinct 00:10:04] and had to go on a wagon. Wagon carried us. Sometimes [indistinct 00:10:11]. When we'd go to do the Christmas shopping, we'd have a wagon we'd use. A horse would pull us.	9:58
Paul Ortiz	I see. Ladies, what were the most important holidays or celebrations?	10:24
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Christmas.	10:31
Paul Ortiz	Christmas.	10:38
Alice Ewing	Yeah. That's the only holiday I know [indistinct 00:10:40]. Christmas.	10:39
Paul Ortiz	Okay. What would your family do for Christmas?	10:42
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Oh, we had a good time. They would buy us dolls and toys and little [indistinct 00:10:51]. We had a pretty good time for Christmas.	10:50
Paul Ortiz	Were there other holidays like Fourth of July that you might—	10:55
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Fourth of July was just like any other day to me.	10:59
Paul Ortiz	So Christmas was really the main—	11:00
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. Christmas was my holiday.	11:01
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Bynum, when you were first growing up, can you tell me about your schooling and when you went to school?	11:19
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. I went to school. School was public school. It was about as far from here to the house over there. I didn't have far to go. I went to grammar school. I had a nice teacher. I was a good student. Yeah. [indistinct 00:11:44].	11:29
Paul Ortiz	What were your favorite subjects?	11:45
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Math. Still is.	11:48
Paul Ortiz	And you had to do so much work out in the field. How many months out of the year could you go to school?	11:58
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I went to school November, December, January, February, March. I more or less went to school because my mama would pick that cotton, and I would pick in the evening and on Saturdays. I pretty much do the work on the evenings and Saturdays. I more or less went to school all the time. I went to school.	12:07
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Ewing, what about your experiences?	12:32
Alice Ewing	Well, I didn't go too much because I didn't have no books and I know the children wouldn't let me read their books. [indistinct 00:12:48] I didn't go because I was [indistinct 00:12:53] second grade. Mama wasn't able to buy me no books. So I didn't go. I didn't do good in school.	12:35
Paul Ortiz	So Black families had to buy your own books.	13:03
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah, I bought my own books. My mama bought my own books.	13:06
Paul Ortiz	Do Whites have to do the same thing?	13:11
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I don't know if they did. I wouldn't communicate with Whites because I didn't go to White school. I didn't know what they have in there. I went to, what you call it, the Black school. I didn't know nothing about no Whites.	13:17
Paul Ortiz	So Mrs. Ewing, the last grade you were able to finish was the third.	13:30
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:13:37] last grade I was in was [indistinct 00:13:41]. Because see, I couldn't. I didn't have none. The children didn't let me read theirs. Mama wasn't able to buy me none. If I didn't let the children eat my lunch, they wouldn't let me look at their books.	13:41
Paul Ortiz	Okay. So they really made you—The only way you could read their book is if you let them eat your lunch.	14:02
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:14:11] I got pregnant and had a baby, and then I couldn't go back. Got the children going now because the children didn't have the babies [indistinct 00:14:23].	14:14
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, what about you? Did you share books when you were—	14:29
Rosie Heaven Bynum	When I wanted to. Yeah. I had my books. I made [indistinct 00:14:38]. I had my books. See, my mama's boss man—See, I was real apt and smart. Sometimes people likes you. People would go to the store and pay for my books. I had my books. And when I wanted, I let them look in there. But if I didn't want to, I didn't have to. Because I didn't let them look in there because I wanted to be at the top of the class, anyway. [indistinct 00:15:00] I did my lesson at home. Did my lesson at night. I go to school. [indistinct 00:15:07] problem or two. Uh-uh. I don't feel like working because, see, I done got mine at home. I didn't let them use my books if I didn't want to. I had all my books.	14:31
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, what was the difference in the opportunities you had for education compared to, say, your children?	15:21
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Is there any difference?	15:27
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	15:27
Rosie Heaven Bynum	[indistinct 00:15:28] Children don't buy no books and don't do nothing now. They different. Going to school—If a child don't get an education now, he don't want none. The bus comes right there side the house and pick them up, take them down there to the school. They get free books. They get free lunches. They get this. If a child don't get an education, he don't want none.	15:28
Alice Ewing	Yeah. [indistinct 00:15:54]	15:52
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, what about your parents? Was there differences between your education opportunities and your parents'?	15:56
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, yeah. They could read and write, but not as good as me.	16:04
Paul Ortiz	Did those skills help you when you were working on a farm?	16:11
Rosie Heaven Bynum	[indistinct 00:16:17] Yeah. What my mother knew, she would teach me things. She taught me until I got up—You know how you get up in age and get up in books and whatever. You ask some children a problem right now, they can get up in something they know you wouldn't know, something they teaching now you wouldn't know. So that's the way that was.	16:17
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, did the skills help you when you were trying to figure out during settlement time?	16:38
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, no, it didn't do because she went on up there and got with the man. And the man done what he wanted. They done what they want. I didn't go down there and [indistinct 00:16:56]. They didn't let me go there. I didn't go there. I didn't participate in that.	16:48
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Ewing, since you were a little younger than your sister, when you were growing up, were you thinking about raising a family or trying to leave the farm ever? Or were you thinking in terms of farm life?	17:09
Alice Ewing	No. [indistinct 00:17:34] I stayed with my mama. I moved down here. I come from the hill and saw that [indistinct 00:17:46]. We moved from out in the country to [indistinct 00:17:51]. But my sister got sick down here in the Delta, then he come to the hill and got me and brought me down here to the Delta. I ain't done too much of work when I was in the hill or nothing. [indistinct 00:18:23] because I was too young [indistinct 00:18:23]. And I reckon I about grown because I was too young to do in the fields. I done [indistinct 00:18:36] because Mama used to let me chop on the hill and she done all the chopping down in the field because I had a baby when I was 16. And then I had to stay around [indistinct 00:18:50] with the baby if she don't be done got the baby, keep him with her. Yeah. I raised my only child.	17:30
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Ewing, did anybody help you with raising your first child?	18:58
Alice Ewing	Nobody but her and my mama. [indistinct 00:19:08]	19:03
Paul Ortiz	Those must have been some difficult times.	19:11
Alice Ewing	It was some hard times. Bad times. Definitely. Yes, sir. It was tough. She used to take my child and carry him to see her husband. He used to put her on the sack and pull her because she [indistinct 00:19:14]. Pull her on in the field with her, and that gave me a chance I could get back down in the fields with my mama. I didn't have to be on the [indistinct 00:19:14] at the end of the field. Because Mama didn't want me to go too far because the field was right beside of some woods. And she didn't know what—	19:12
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That was hard times. [indistinct 00:19:14] like you had when you come along. You had good time when you come along. We didn't have that time. Yeah. We was [indistinct 00:20:19]. We didn't have time like you. They always did y'all the best time.	19:14
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, do you remember when the Emmett Till murder happened?	20:29
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Sure, I do.	20:35
Paul Ortiz	Were you living in the Delta then?	20:37
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Right here. Right up there on the stone.	20:39
Paul Ortiz	When did you first hear about it?	20:42
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, I guess they killed him at night, and we got the news the next day or the next day or two.	20:48
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, how did the Black community react to that?	20:58
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, I guess they acted all right because they couldn't do nothing about it. They couldn't do nothing about it. They acted all right. His mother came from Chicago, and she resided in [indistinct 00:21:19] at a Black neighborhood with the main doctor up there. And after he left, the lady stayed there, I reckon, to see about her son and what they was going to do to him. They got mad with the man, and he had to leave. He had to leave his own home. See, he stayed with—[indistinct 00:21:40] is a Black town. Nothing but Black folks. And he was a big doctor for [indistinct 00:21:46]. So when she came down from Chicago, he resided with her, boarded with her until she can get things straight. So he had to leave. Yeah, I know when they killed Emmett Till. I was right there when it happened. I sure do.	21:03
Paul Ortiz	The other day when I was doing an interview, the people were telling me that there was lot of prayers for his family.	22:07
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah, they did. They done a lot of prayer. That's all they could do. Pray. Because they couldn't do nothing else because they hadn't done anything to these White folks. They got to kill them, too.	22:17
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Ewing, do you remember that time?	22:29
Alice Ewing	Well, I heard them talking about it, but I didn't have really nothing [indistinct 00:22:38]. I heard them talk about it [indistinct 00:22:44].	22:31
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, when you were growing up, did women work as midwives in the—	22:49
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah, it's all they had. No doctors didn't see no Colored folks. Yeah. They had plenty of midwives. That's the only way you had a baby.	22:54
Paul Ortiz	How would you get in contact with a midwife?	23:06
Rosie Heaven Bynum	If you got sick, you're at this house—Maybe if I got sick here at this house [indistinct 00:23:14], she would go over there and notify the midwife. And the midwife would come over to my house.	23:09
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Was that something that would pass down between mothers and daughters, learning how to be a midwife?	23:18
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I imagine so, them what wanted to. Yeah. Them what wanted to. [indistinct 00:23:38]	23:32
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, do you remember a particular midwife in your community that a lot of women knew, that looked up to?	23:42
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. I know [indistinct 00:23:52]. I know Ms. Emma. [indistinct 00:23:56]	23:50
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:23:58]	23:50
Rosie Heaven Bynum	[indistinct 00:24:00] Smith. Ruby.	23:50
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:24:07]	23:50
Rosie Heaven Bynum	[indistinct 00:24:09]. Yeah. I know a lot of them.	23:50
Paul Ortiz	Did they play other roles in the community in addition to being midwives? Were they looked up to or ...	24:14
Rosie Heaven Bynum	[indistinct 00:24:31] Yeah. You wouldn't have no doctor. Nobody had no money to get no doctor. Nobody got no $250, $300 to pay for delivering babies. You ain't got that now.	24:32
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, when you were—Now earlier, you were talking about kinds of home remedies.	24:49
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah.	24:57
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am. Did the home remedies—Do you also use those when somebody, say, was bitten by a snake?	24:58
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I don't know about bitten by a snake because I never know too many folks get bitten by a snake. I don't know about that. Now I don't know what they did when they was bitten by a snake. I never witnesses people getting bit by a snake. Wasp bite, cuts, things like that. But I didn't know too much about them getting bitten by snakes. Didn't get bitten by snakes too much.	25:08
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Did older people talk about things like spirits or haints or—	25:35
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Yeah. They said it was some spirits or some haints. They talk about them now.	25:41
Alice Ewing	Because Mama used to sass me. [indistinct 00:25:51] shut the door. "Come on, so and so." [indistinct 00:25:59]	25:48
Rosie Heaven Bynum	They talk about it, but I didn't ever see none.	25:59
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I didn't ever see none, but I was scared of them. I didn't talk about them, but I was scared of them. If I hear talk of somebody dead, I go to bed and cover up my head because I was scared.	26:06
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, were there things that you could do when you were growing up if there was a storm or something to try to keep the storm from coming overhead?	26:24
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No.	26:35
Paul Ortiz	Do people talk about—	26:35
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No. I didn't know nothing to do to keep a storm from coming. No, I did not.	26:42
Alice Ewing	I had heard some of the folks say [indistinct 00:26:47] put the [indistinct 00:26:52] shove it down in the ground. But I didn't ever do that. [indistinct 00:26:59]. That's what I heard some old folks say, I ain't never seen it, never tried it.	26:43
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I never tried that because I couldn't do nothing with God. If He wants a storm to come, it was coming.	27:04
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:27:14].	27:09
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I know they said, but I don't think that's so.	27:13
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Bynum, if you were talking to an audience of young children and you were telling them what were some of your most important experiences, what would you tell them?	27:23
Rosie Heaven Bynum	If I was talking to some now?	27:36
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	27:37
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Be nice, kind, obedient, mind children. Go to school. Try to get them an education because if you don't get no education, you can't live. Because the White folks ain't [indistinct 00:27:43] letting them to get an education.	27:39
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:27:58]	27:42
Rosie Heaven Bynum	[indistinct 00:28:03]	27:42
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:28:06]	27:42
Rosie Heaven Bynum	The room key on here.	28:08
Alice Ewing	My door locked?	28:11
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I'm just trying to keep [indistinct 00:28:21].	28:13
Alice Ewing	It got red on it.	28:15
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I raised a granddaughter of mine. She become 18 on the 11th of July. That's the last child I raised. I raised about 18 children. 14 of my own and 4 grandchildren.	28:20
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:28:33]	28:28
Rosie Heaven Bynum	So I told her to go to school, mind her teachers, be obedient, and get [indistinct 00:28:38]. She succeeded. I didn't have no money to send her [indistinct 00:28:43] so she could go. She won a $20,000 scholarship at Jackson State. Then Chamber of Commerce of [indistinct 00:28:53] $250. Then the Rotary over here give her $500. Then the superintendent of schools [indistinct 00:29:02] give her $100. And she's in Jackson now competing for a $2000 one. I don't know if she going to win or not. [indistinct 00:29:10] She'll be set. She plans to go to school on the 12th. I'm hoping that it's Jackson State.	28:33
Paul Ortiz	Okay. That's great. Ladies, throughout your life, did you ever see in the Delta any changes in race relations?	29:27
Alice Ewing	Just a little bit.	29:36
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, it's a bit better, but it ain't much better. Because the White folks don't want to mess with the Black ones. I worked out here at the school 18 years. They say it was segregation, integration or what it was. But I tell you how it worked. I went to the kitchen 18 years, but [indistinct 00:29:56]. They sit in the classroom together. They might sit side by side. But they had to sit where they tell them to sit at the table in the dining room hall. It has six children to a table, but if one White go to that table, six going there.	29:37
Rosie Heaven Bynum	One Black go to this table, six going there. And out on the campus, you see this White crowd together. You see this Black crowd together. They never associate too much. They never did communicate together too much. I was there 18 years with them, and I know about them. I might speak on the 14th of August down there. The got me on the agenda to speak. [indistinct 00:30:53] at the—with them trustees down there. I want to tell them how—	30:17
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:31:03]?	31:01
Rosie Heaven Bynum	It's going to be on the 14th of August. I'm going to tell them [indistinct 00:31:08].	31:04
Alice Ewing	I'll be gone then.	31:04
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Where you going to be gone?	31:04
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:31:14].	31:04
Rosie Heaven Bynum	All right then. I'm going to [indistinct 00:31:17].	31:04
Alice Ewing	Supposedly, you only saw the [indistinct 00:31:17].	31:04
Rosie Heaven Bynum	[indistinct 00:31:17] friendly childrens, they were. We just let a half-White, Caucasian down there. I'm going to tell them like that. It was friendly. I'm going to tell them. But after all, it could have [indistinct 00:31:45] with my child because she's got [indistinct 00:31:46]. She got the money. But a lot of things she could have participated in like Hall of Fame and one thing, they didn't let her do it because she was second in class. She was a cheerleader. She was a track team. She was a basketball. She was a [indistinct 00:32:03]. She was [indistinct 00:32:05]. She done everything at the school. She was secretary. She was treasurer of the class. She done everything at school to be done, and I don't think they treated her right. So I talked to the secretary. I talked to the president of the council down there. She put me on the agenda. I'm going to tell—My daughter gone now. They can't do nothing with her. She could win because she's going to Jackson. They can't do nothing against her. So I'm going to tell them what I think. I will, too. You know I will. I hope they have it taped.	31:16
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:32:42]	32:40
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I sure wish he could hear this tape.	32:45
Paul Ortiz	Oh, he can hear, Mrs. Bynum. Because all of the tapes will be deposited over in Mississippi Valley. So he'll be able to hear it.	32:47
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Okay. Okay. And I want him to say, "That's my aunt." See, my children went to Valley. All of my children went to Valley. But this granddaughter, she got a straight mind. She don't want to go to that. All of my children went to Valley. I had seven children go to Valley.	32:58
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Now I know I've taken up a lot of your time this morning.	33:21
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No, it didn't ruin me. I stayed just for this. I stayed, I could feel, just for this. You didn't take up my time.	33:23
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Well—	33:29
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I got time for you. Until 4:00 this evening.	33:30
Paul Ortiz	Are there any other stories or experiences that you haven't talked about that you'd like to share?	33:37
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Oh, that's all right. Just want to ask them questions. I want to tell you how it was.	33:47
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Ewing, how about you? Do you have any?	33:50
Alice Ewing	No.	33:52
Paul Ortiz	Okay. I wonder if both of you could tell me—What were the things that inspired you throughout your lives to keep on struggling and fighting for the things you believed in and raising your children? What were the things that really inspired you to make it through?	33:56
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, one thing about it, hard working, trying to pray and do the things that's right and teach them the things that's right. I think that's what helped me to get through with mine. Because I had a hard time. I had 14 children. I raised 14 children and 4 grands. I raised 18 children. And every one of them finished school. If they didn't finish while they was at my house—One or two of them, they finished out of my house. One of the boys finished in the Army. And one of the girls finished in Chicago. But every one of my children finished school. All of them got good jobs. All of them doing good.	34:17
Alice Ewing	Well, I had 10. 8 living and 2 dead. Some finished and some didn't. I had—let me see. Well, all my, been about 4 or 5 finished high school, and Andrew, he's been going ever since he's been here. Because [indistinct 00:35:27] Valley. [indistinct 00:35:28] Jackson, Ole Miss. And I got a daughter, she got graduated. She's a nurse.	34:59
Rosie Heaven Bynum	You got more than one daughter.	35:38
Alice Ewing	Oh. I got two daughters.	35:40
Rosie Heaven Bynum	You got two nurses. RNs.	35:41
Alice Ewing	Two nurses.	35:44
Rosie Heaven Bynum	RNs.	35:44
Alice Ewing	Well, the girl what just left out here, she didn't finish school. But she went to night school and got her GED.	35:50
Rosie Heaven Bynum	And she got a nice job.	35:55
Alice Ewing	Job. I done what I could to raise them by myself, too, with the help of the Lord. School helped.	35:59
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I got secretaries, teachers. I got one work with the CTA to long up there. Drove the elected car until he's the boss now. I got some still working on the CTA. I got some working at [indistinct 00:36:30] High School, secretaries and teachers and one thing or another. My last baby's teaching at Halliday. All of mine, I put them through. They got good jobs. Pretty good jobs. Such is what you give them. I'm the onliest one that's got to struggle.	36:12
Alice Ewing	So I got two nurses. I got a baby boy, he in the Army.	36:51
Rosie Heaven Bynum	He made it his career.	36:53
Alice Ewing	He made a career in the Army. So one down in the Valley. And Andrew, he—	36:56
Rosie Heaven Bynum	This one—	36:57
Alice Ewing	He is [indistinct 00:37:07]. Well, she got a job help take care of herself. She did. She just finished school, but she went and got her [indistinct 00:37:17].	37:07
Rosie Heaven Bynum	She's a manager at a store.	37:17
Alice Ewing	So she works at [indistinct 00:37:31]. That's all. All of them taking care of their own selves [indistinct 00:37:40]. So you know if they [indistinct 00:37:40].	37:30
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Some got to do a little better than the other ones.	37:39
Alice Ewing	So Andrew's been going ever since he was six years old. He's been going ever since he was six years old.	37:39
Rosie Heaven Bynum	That's what this child of mine—The one in Jackson says she got six to eight years in front of her, and she got to take it.	37:51
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:38:02]	37:57
Rosie Heaven Bynum	[indistinct 00:38:03] If you don't get it, you can't make it. You might be like me and live [indistinct 00:38:06] Social Security what I done worked and put up there. Take Social Security, what am I doing? I done worked and put my money up. I don't see how they can take it. I've been working all my life. I've been working ever since I was 16.	38:03
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, I sure appreciate you taking out time to talk to me.	38:23
Rosie Heaven Bynum	You're welcome. I could have stayed here until 4:00 [indistinct 00:38:33]. I want [indistinct 00:38:33]. I could have stayed until 4:00 afterwards. I stayed out the field. I missed $25 for this.	38:26
Paul Ortiz	Okay. I hope it was worth it. One last question, I guess. Who are the people that helped both of you most raising your children?	38:37
Alice Ewing	My mama. She helped.	38:54
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I just worked myself and raised my own. I just got out there and worked. I just go to the field and work all day and sit up until 12:00 and 1:00 at night nursing the White folks' babies, letting them go out. I just worked. That was all. I just worked.	38:59
Alice Ewing	Well, I worked, too.	39:13
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I just worked. That's all.	39:13
Alice Ewing	There was nothing I could do because I didn't now nothing. I didn't go to school, so I went out there and worked for $3 or $5 or $6 a week.	39:13
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, I got $3 a night. I sat up and nursed them babies all night. Sometimes I'll sit up and nurse Bobby's children and babies all night long, didn't get but $3. But I'll do that. Get up and go home and change my clothes, get ready to go to the field the next day. I just worked hard. That's all. That's all. I just worked. I just got some work. I still work. I'm 81 years old. I still work. I go to the field every day. I got a little girl trying to go to school. I'm trying to help her to go. The government don't want to give nothing.	39:25
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Bynum, Mrs. Ewing, were there other stories that you wanted to add?	40:06
Alice Ewing	No. That's all right. I don't have no more stories to add. [indistinct 00:40:16] I don't know. [indistinct 00:40:19] this here project. One thing about it, I just don't see how I'm living in the government's house and got to pay $145 a month for it.	40:11
Rosie Heaven Bynum	They said low-income housing. I don't see why that's no low-income housing when they're making me pay $145 for two bedrooms. I got two bedrooms, kitchen, bathroom like this. It's just like this. I'm upstairs.	40:31
Alice Ewing	I also [indistinct 00:40:48] any young folks.	40:46
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I don't see how it is. I get a Social Security check for it. I done worked hard. I got to pay higher rent. People what's got babies here, they don't pay no rent. [indistinct 00:41:01]. They don't pay no rent. But Social Security people got to.	40:49
Alice Ewing	They don't give you no food stamps.	41:06
Rosie Heaven Bynum	No. They won't give you no food stamps. Our money just $622. They won't give me food stamps. There's two of us. They won't give me no food stamps. $10 worth. This here little White man what got them, I told him he can keep his. Put them in his hip pocket. [indistinct 00:41:22] I don't see why they didn't give them to me. I'm making it.	41:07
Alice Ewing	[indistinct 00:41:31] that White man son, he works for [indistinct 00:41:39]. He got to try to get this here [indistinct 00:41:40] and live here.	41:32
Rosie Heaven Bynum	He tried to get over here?	41:39
Alice Ewing	Uh-huh. Because [indistinct 00:41:47]. But his son got to be wrong because when we first come here, we went down there and paid money. But we can't pay no rent now.	41:51
Rosie Heaven Bynum	I tell what happened. When we first come here, they pay a light bill for us. The onliest way we'll pay a light bill now—This house two bedrooms. It has a certain amount of bills. They'll pay the light bill. But if you went over that light bill, $5 or $6 over the light bill, you had to pay that. But if you went to that light bill, lower than that light bill, they paid it. But now they just starting to make us pay bills and everything. We pay for everything. If they put a door up to the house, you got to pay for that. I'm glad I didn't get none. I needed one, but I'm glad I didn't get none.	42:01
Alice Ewing	I supposedly put two in here, but he didn't put but one.	42:33
Rosie Heaven Bynum	How much it cost?	42:41
Alice Ewing	I don't know what the cost is.	42:44
Rosie Heaven Bynum	Well, I tell you this one [indistinct 00:42:48]. I don't see what the government does. The government ain't done nothing for us. If they done the house, why should I pay for it? The government don't. I pay for [indistinct 00:42:58] busted up.	42:45
Alice Ewing	$80. But I don't know because, see, some of my bills—[indistinct 00:43:03] pays my bills. My daughter. [indistinct 00:43:09] She write them checks and carry them down there after I give her the money for my rent, though. I write a check or money order one. And something happened down there. They stopped them from—They stopped them from collecting cash money?	43:00
Rosie Heaven Bynum	[indistinct 00:43:27] Whoo, Lord. I hope you got some good something.	43:28

Item Info

Title:

Rosie Bynum (primary interviewee) and Alice Ewing interview recording, 1995 July 26

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4c252x00

Date:

July 26, 1995

Creator:

Contributor:

Ortiz, Paul

Description:

Name: Rosie Heaven Bynum; Date of birth: 1919-11-13; Place of birth: Macon, MS; Occupation: farm laborer; agriculture; sharecropper; Residence: Leland, MS. Name: Alice Ewing; Date of birth: 1930-07-14; Place of birth: Macon, MS; Occupation: agriculture; child care; Residence: Leland, MS
Informant ID: 1124; Informant ID: 1268; Interviewed by: Paul Ortiz.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-0733
0657528d-dc7f-4744-9acb-f2e4a6a7f01e
behindtheveil
0b63078f-3003-42b1-990e-ae313a637467
ark:/87924/r4c252x00
0b63078f-3003-42b1-990e-ae313a637467

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Related Resources:

See below

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Occupation:

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Series:

Type:

Sound

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Rosie Bynum (primary interviewee) and Alice Ewing interview recording, 1995 July 26

Transcript

Item Info

1. Rosie Bynum and Alice Ewing administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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