Josephine Linyear interview recording, 1995 July 18

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Mary Hebert	All I want you to start to do to begin with is to state your full name and when and where you were born.	0:02
Josephine Webb Linyear	Okay. Josephine Webb Linyear, born in Norfolk, Virginia, April 5th, 1942.	0:07
Mary Hebert	And what did your parents do for a living?	0:18
Josephine Webb Linyear	Well, my mother was basically a homemaker, and my father was a pharmacist.	0:21
Mary Hebert	He owned Webb's Pharmacy?	0:29
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, he did.	0:30
Mary Hebert	At what part of Norfolk was Webb's in?	0:33
Josephine Webb Linyear	Webb's Pharmacy was in the Berkeley section of Norfolk, right on the outskirts of South Norfolk, which is now part of Chesapeake, but right on that South Norfolk line.	0:36
Mary Hebert	So, it's right on the line between the two?	0:53
Josephine Webb Linyear	Uh—huh.	0:55
Mary Hebert	Do you remember what year it opened?	0:56
Josephine Webb Linyear	I believe it opened, I want to say 1947, no later than '46 because I remember me being born in 1942, I thought I was either five or six years old. So I want to say either '47 or '48.	0:59
Mary Hebert	Was it one of the first African—American pharmacies?	1:21
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, it was one of the first. I thought it was the first until my son found a great big news ad in a paper recently in a Bible, which was announcing the fact that my father was going to be associated with this pharmacy in Portsmouth on the corner of High and Effingham Street. And his previous employment had been this drugstore.	1:24
Josephine Webb Linyear	He managed a drugstore in Berkeley, and all of that came back to me. That drugstore, I don't know the name of it, I want to say Arts & Science, but I'm not really sure. But it was, I think, owned by a medical doctor and he managed it for him. I'm sure he filled prescriptions and all too.	2:07
Mary Hebert	Now, I've heard of your father referred to as Doctor. Was that—	2:30
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, he was referred to as Doc, where because a lot of times, of course, along with filling the prescriptions of the doctors in the area, people would come to him with so many ailments and he was able to give them something. I noticed in this, I should've brought that, but I'll be glad to share it with you. I noticed in this advertisement announcing my father going to Portsmouth to work in this pharmacy, that the other pharmacist there was also called Doctor. So I guess during that time they were really referred to—	2:32
Mary Hebert	Beautiful. They would hand out—	3:19
Josephine Webb Linyear	Given that, mm—hmm.	3:19
Mary Hebert	Was he a trained pharmacist? Did he go to college?	3:23
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes. Oh, yes. He went to Howard University. This was his dream, because when he married my mother, he was a delivery person for Florence Pharmacy in Ocean View, the Ocean View section of Norfolk. He was a delivery boy. Doing that and being around the pharmacy, and I'm sure he observed quite a bit, this really inspired him.	3:26
Mary Hebert	And that's what—	4:08
Josephine Webb Linyear	So, yes, he finished high school, and had gone to Union, and had finished Union University, but I don't guess the jobs were that plentiful. So this is what he did for a while to make money.	4:09
Mary Hebert	Then he went on to Howard?	4:31
Josephine Webb Linyear	Then he went on to Howard after he married my mother, and he went on to Howard and stayed in Washington and finished.	4:32
Mary Hebert	So they lived in Washington?	4:42
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, did not live in Washington. My mother stayed here and she was the organist, I can't remember if I mentioned that she was a homemaker. Was a homemaker, but was a church organist and of course, had to stop a little when she had the three children.	4:44
Mary Hebert	What church?	5:05
Josephine Webb Linyear	First Trinity AME Church. And that, of course, was also in Berkeley. First Trinity AME.	5:06
Mary Hebert	Was your mother also college educated?	5:17
Josephine Webb Linyear	She had two years of college, I believe. But during that time, with two years of college, that allowed you to teach. So I think she taught a couple of years before they got married.	5:20
Mary Hebert	And she stopped when she got pregnant?	5:38
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, mm—hmm.	5:39
Mary Hebert	Do you remember your grandparents at all?	5:41
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, I do. I certainly do. Well, at least for the first 14 years of my life, we lived in South Norfolk, actually not too far from Essie, and we lived upstairs. It was a pretty nice sized house, but not really equipped for two families. But we lived upstairs.	5:42
Josephine Webb Linyear	My parents and my sister and brother lived upstairs, and then my grandmother lived downstairs. And of course, she lived with an aunt. So the house was transformed to accommodate—	6:11
Mary Hebert	Two families?	6:26
Josephine Webb Linyear	— two families. Yes. But it worked out fine. I mean, we were in close quarters, but it worked out fine.	6:27
Mary Hebert	Would you have big family dinners in the evening, or—	6:35
Josephine Webb Linyear	Not really big family dinners, because Daddy was working some extremely long hours. And of course, my mother was there at home all the time other than— I'm thinking, let me see, I think it was Thursday night when there was choir rehearsal and she would go. But she was there all of the time, and we would not see Dad. I know he came home late when he was working in Portsmouth.	6:39
Josephine Webb Linyear	I remember most the of the late coming home after he got the drugstore on Liberty Street, his own drugstore on Liberty Street, and I remember the drugstore closing at 10:30.	7:13
Mary Hebert	Now, was it only a drugstore, or—	7:32
Josephine Webb Linyear	Well, it was a drugstore and also a soda fountain. And that was a meeting place for a lot of people, because there were actually little booths in the store and all.	7:37
Mary Hebert	Was it mostly teenagers you'd meet?	7:52
Josephine Webb Linyear	I think so. Well, I think adults were there too, but it was really a good, wholesome— I won't say hangout, because he didn't allow them to hang out. But it was a good, wholesome place for them to meet. And it was an old fashioned— I remember the little cups and the milkshakes and all. So it was really nice.	7:53
Josephine Webb Linyear	Now, actually, this building housed the drugstore. Then upstairs was a doctor's office. At one time, it had two doctors in there. I can't remember who the second one was, but there was the doctor's office. And then see, there was a drugstore, then a door that led upstairs to the doctor's office, and then on the other side of that was— Oh, gracious, I wanted to say a cleaners, I think it was a cleaners.	8:21
Mary Hebert	Liberty Street Cleaners, or?	9:01
Josephine Webb Linyear	I think so. I don't want to be giving you wrong information, and I have a picture home with my cousin and someone else standing in front of that, so I could find that, to be sure. I wanted to say either a cleaners or either a shoe shine place, because that was popular. But it had a little size to it.	9:02
Josephine Webb Linyear	So, I want to say a cleaners, but I'll check that to be sure, because I don't want to give you wrong information.	9:30
Mary Hebert	We can always correct you, in the information we write up in the interview. Did he have a car? Is that how he got to and from work?	9:38
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, he walked, because here again, and I would think he would've been able to get— It was no more than maybe a five or six—minute walk, but eventually he did get a car. But starting out, no. And of course, the transportation I know for getting over to Portsmouth was a ferry, was the ferry.	9:48
Mary Hebert	So that was before the tunnel was built?	10:15
Josephine Webb Linyear	Uh—huh. Oh, yes. My goodness. Yes. Oh, just the thought of having to use that ferry, I hadn't really even thought about, but I know that's what he used to get back and forth.	10:16
Mary Hebert	Did he hire any employees to help him in the pharmacy?	10:35
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes, yes. Many, many children he helped. That was another one of his dreams, to hire and employ Black youth, and he did that. Many, many young people came through there.	10:38
Mary Hebert	They'd work the soda fountain?	11:02
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes. Working the soda fountain, mm—hmm. And many of them have come to be real professionals. So, mm—hmm.	11:03
Mary Hebert	So it was important to him to help?	11:12
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, yes. It really was very, very important to him.	11:15
Mary Hebert	Was Berkeley a relatively laboring class neighborhood? Was it a mixture of middle class, upper class and working class?	11:18
Josephine Webb Linyear	I would think basically a working class, there were few. There were a few, because the doctors, from what I can remember, the doctors who practiced in Berkeley also lived in Berkeley, and of course, their homes were a little better than most.	11:28
Mary Hebert	You all lived right outside of Berkeley?	11:57
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, in South Norfolk, up until I was 14. And then we moved into a lovely brick home in the Campostella section of Norfolk. I don't know if you've heard anyone mention Campostella, but that section adjoined Berkeley. It was a thing after you passed the street, leaving Berkeley, after you passed the street, you're in Campostella, the Campostella section.	11:59
Mary Hebert	I've seen the signs for Campostella Street.	12:29
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah. So, that's where we moved.	12:31
Mary Hebert	What was that neighborhood like? Who lived there? Who lived around?	12:35
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, if I can remember, the homes were a little bit better. We lived next door to another one of the doctors who— Dr. Greene, who also was one of the doctors that practiced in Berkeley. He had a home that was referred to as Twin Chimneys, because the home had two chimneys.	12:39
Josephine Webb Linyear	Now I can't remember if that— I'm so embarrassed. I can't remember if that house is still there now. My son is living in my parents' home now. And of course I go by there periodically, but I think it is.	13:16
Mary Hebert	Did they buy the house or did they build the house?	13:35
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, they did. Yes.	13:36
Mary Hebert	They bought it?	13:38
Josephine Webb Linyear	They had the home built.	13:39
Mary Hebert	Had it built?	13:39
Josephine Webb Linyear	Had the home built, and we took pictures as the house was going through the stages of being built. That was a real, real exciting time for us, to finally have a home and each to have our own bedrooms.	13:41
Mary Hebert	So you had to share when you were at your grandmother's?	14:00
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, mm—hmm. Yes, we had to share.	14:02
Mary Hebert	Did your grandmother ever tell you what it was like when she was growing up? Would she tell you stories of her childhood?	14:06
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, not my mother's mother. I got a little bit of information about my father's mother who was born in Suffolk, Virginia. I'm not sure how she got to Norfolk, but she was a domestic and did the cleaning and the laundry. I remember my dad telling me that she would bring the laundry home, and then my dad who had two brothers, one of whom was a pharmacist also, and he worked with my dad periodically in the drugstore in Berkeley.	14:12
Josephine Webb Linyear	But anyway, I would hear Daddy say many times, and I think the people that she worked for lived in the Ghent section of Norfolk, and he said many times they would have to fight their way to take this laundry back to the people that she worked for.	15:07
Mary Hebert	Worked for?	15:31
Josephine Webb Linyear	Uh—huh, but of course, I know you asked me about coming up. I didn't get too much.	15:32
Mary Hebert	How would they have to fight their way there?	15:39
Josephine Webb Linyear	Well, because Blacks were not to go into that—	15:41
Mary Hebert	Into Ghent?	15:47
Josephine Webb Linyear	— Ghent neighborhood. To get there, I guess they were harassed. He said they would have to fight their way. I mean, I don't think it was—	15:48
Mary Hebert	Fist fighting?	16:03
Josephine Webb Linyear	— fist fighting. I don't know if he did had to do any explaining as to what I'm doing and why I'm here. But I remember hearing him use that expression that we had to fight our way.	16:04
Mary Hebert	Did he ever talk about whether or not his mother wanted him to go to college to get a college education? Did he mention things like that?	16:18
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes. I think he did. He did mention that. Of course, she wanted better for her boys. Now my grandmother, this is my dad's mother, became widowed when my father was six. And her father also, she had a younger son who I think might've been about two or three. So she was widowed at an early age.	16:27
Josephine Webb Linyear	And of course, she remarried, but that marriage was not successful, and I don't think the boys were too happy with this.	17:03
Mary Hebert	So she raised them basically on her own?	17:13
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, she did. And of course, she would leave them every day, and I think I remember hearing him say she would leave them with— right then you could with so much money, and they got their lunch. I can't remember because you haven't asked me about my father—in—law, whose name I also gave to Lessie. He could give you—	17:14
Mary Hebert	Who's your father—in—law?	17:45
Josephine Webb Linyear	William Linyear. William Mack Linyear. Yeah. And Essie knows him because he carried insurance. He was an insurance person. I mean, he would have a wealth of information for you.	17:46
Mary Hebert	We'll give him a call.	18:04
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah. Now, I had mentioned to him, because he could tell you lots, he really could.	18:04
Mary Hebert	Was education something that your father stressed for his children, for you and your siblings?	18:13
Josephine Webb Linyear	Well, we just knew. I mean, we just knew. I'm sure he did, but it was just understood that you were going on. It wasn't a thing where you decide. I mean, it was just understood that you were going to college. And we did. It was, "What college are you going to?" type thing.	18:20
Mary Hebert	And I said your father, I should've said your parents.	18:50
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes. But it was just understood that you will go on after college, whether I wanted to or not. It was just understood that you were going, and we did.	18:51
Mary Hebert	Where did you go to elementary school?	19:06
Josephine Webb Linyear	Okay. I'm glad you asked that. Even though we lived in South Norfolk and would have gone to the South Norfolk schools, my parents thought that the Norfolk City schools were better, so they arranged for us to go to the schools in Norfolk. He knew the principal at the elementary school that we attended, which was in Berkeley, Abraham Lincoln School.	19:09
Josephine Webb Linyear	At the time, because Daddy paid taxes, had a business in Norfolk, that was the arrangement, in so many words, that because he paid taxes in Norfolk, we were allowed— I don't think it was a thing where he went to the school board and got permission. But all three of us were allowed to go to Abraham Lincoln School. Now, we lived on A Street, A. I mean, the letter A Street in South Norfolk, and less than two blocks away was Rena B. Wright Elementary School.	19:48
Mary Hebert	Which was an all—White school?	20:42
Josephine Webb Linyear	All—White school. Mm—hmm. Mm—hmm. And we could not go there. Much, much better equipped. The school that we would've gone to would've been—	20:42
Mary Hebert	Waterford?	20:55
Josephine Webb Linyear	— Waterford. I was going to say Waterford.	20:59
Mary Hebert	Well, I interviewed Mrs. Doja's brother who did go there.	21:01
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, okay.	21:05
Mary Hebert	That's why.	21:07
Josephine Webb Linyear	Okay. And ironically, and of course, we finished school in Norfolk. The three of us went to Ruffner Junior High School and then Booker T. Washington High School. But the ironic thing, once I finished school and I got adegree in music, taught away for two years in Charlotte County. I went there the year that they closed the schools in Prince Edward County.	21:07
Josephine Webb Linyear	Charlotte County adjoined Prince Edward County, and anyway, I taught there for two years. And I came back. My first school— not first school, but I had three schools. I taught music and I went from school to school was Waterford, it was Waterford. A year after I was there, they changed the name to Edwards Wilson.	21:43
Josephine Webb Linyear	I was there to see that, the school was named after two former teachers, Ms. Leona D. Edwards, and I can't remember Ms. Wilson's name, but Ms. Wilson was a distant relative of mine. I found that out. Once the schools slowly began the integration process, I was assigned to Rena B. Wright.	22:16
Mary Hebert	Oh, so you taught—	22:49
Josephine Webb Linyear	I taught there.	22:51
Mary Hebert	— at the school that was a block and a half away, couldn't go?	22:51
Josephine Webb Linyear	Could not go to, yes. At that old building, and then the school was eventually torn down and I taught at the new Rena B. Wright. I mean, everybody was wonderful. I really enjoyed it. I really did. Ironically, on my way here, I had a little time. A year or so ago, someone had mentioned, had suggested I go into this insurance company office and he said, "You'll see lots of pictures," and of course I misunderstood him because I thought he told me there were pictures of Berkeley, scenes from the old Berkeley.	22:54
Josephine Webb Linyear	So I went dashing in there because I said, "Maybe there's a picture of the drugstore and all," but there were pictures of Old South Norfolk, I mean, just in black and white, really neat. So, this morning, I came out of that place all geared up because the lady, one of the I guess secretaries in there invited me in after I saw huge pictures in the lobby. She asked me if she could help me. And I told her I just had come in to see these pictures that I had heard about.	23:45
Josephine Webb Linyear	And then she invited me in and pointed some things out to me, because she had come to the area, she said in '47, and she pointed some things out to me. But I don't know if Essie has seen this. I mentioned to her that I had heard about it, but she's going to really—	24:19
Mary Hebert	Tell her about it?	24:38
Josephine Webb Linyear	I had mentioned it to her, that I had heard. And she said she was going to stop by, but it's really, of course, I could see old Rena B. Wright.	24:39
Mary Hebert	Brought back memories of—	24:49
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, it did. Mm—hmm.	24:50
Mary Hebert	So the area you lived in was a mixed area with both Black families and White families?	24:52
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes. On the side of Liberty Street where Essie lived, it was all Black. But on the other side of Liberty, on A Street, there were three houses that were Black, Blacks lived in, directly behind us on the street was B Street, all White. Further down A Street, nothing but Whites. And we got along. There were never any problems. And my mother always mentioned that there were never any problems, we didn't play together that often. But there were never, never, ever any problems.	24:56
Mary Hebert	No fights? No name calling?	25:54
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, no, no, no. Never. So, that was always something, really.	25:56
Mary Hebert	How did you get to elementary school? Did you have to—	26:03
Josephine Webb Linyear	Walk. We walked and thought nothing of it. The walk, I would guess the little route that we took was maybe I would say a good 10 minutes from our house, because we knew the route to take, and this was everyday, and we thought nothing of it. Then when I went to Ruffner, which was over across the bridge in Norfolk, I had to walk. And I guess the walk might've been 15 minutes, but here again to the bus stop, and there was a school bus that carried us too, and it was really for the Berkeley children, but we—	26:05
Mary Hebert	So you would walk 15 minutes to get to the bus stop?	26:59
Josephine Webb Linyear	Because I was coming from South Norfolk.	27:02
Mary Hebert	South Norfolk.	27:04
Josephine Webb Linyear	And we were using a Norfolk address. We used the drugstore address. That was the address, because of course, everybody knew us in Lincoln, being right there in Berkeley and the drugstore not too far from the school and all of that. But when we went into Ruffner, everyone didn't know the situation. So we just simply used the—	27:07
Mary Hebert	The store's address?	27:36
Josephine Webb Linyear	Mm—hmm. Yeah. And we used the store's address going to— We couldn't say address 302 A Street, South Norfolk, and be going to a Norfolk school.	27:38
Mary Hebert	Did you ever have any problems because of that? Did anyone question it?	27:51
Josephine Webb Linyear	Never. Never.	27:53
Mary Hebert	Never?	27:53
Josephine Webb Linyear	No. And that school, Lincoln, had a principal that wanted the very, very best for the children in Berkeley. And because of that, he got a lot of things that the other Norfolk schools did not have, because my husband went to school in Norfolk over on the other side.	27:57
Josephine Webb Linyear	And things like home ec, home economics for the girls and shop for the boys in elementary school, schools didn't have— We were the first school to have a band. The very first school, I mean, and it was many, many, many years before some of the other schools— They had chorus, but not a band. And we had uniforms and participated in parades and all. It was wonderful.	28:21
Mary Hebert	So, you joined band?	29:01
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes, I certainly did, joined the band. Our band director, who I'm still in touch with now, we got to be really, really close. He was basically one of my inspirations for deciding to go into music as a career, to teach, to be a music teacher.	29:01
Mary Hebert	Did you have music lessons at home?	29:27
Josephine Webb Linyear	I was just getting ready to say that. Yes, the three of us, and you're going to fall out of your seat when I tell you how much the music lessons were. But he would come to our house every Saturday and my dad had him to give us music lessons. $1. $1.	29:28
Mary Hebert	Per child?	29:49
Josephine Webb Linyear	Per piece. Per child. $1 per child. Mr. Clark was his name, and he provided those lessons for us, for $1. And there was a boy who moved to the area who also lived in South Norfolk, and his parents arranged for him to go to school in Norfolk. For a while, Mr. Clark, he was playing the trumpet, and his mother just could not handle the practice. She let him get in band, but she could not handle the practice, and for a while, he would come to our house and have lessons too, when Mr. Clark would come over.	29:50
Mary Hebert	What instrument did you play?	30:40
Josephine Webb Linyear	Clarinet, and I ended up being clarinet major. I played the clarinet. My sister played the clarinet. My brother played the trumpet.	30:42
Mary Hebert	He would come on Saturdays to tutor you in clarinet or would he teach piano?	30:51
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, no, no, he didn't teach piano. My mother taught me piano and basically was my teacher until I went to high school, and I think my senior year, because I didn't have any more courses to take, and I wanted to take an elective. And I took a piano class in high school. But up until then, she was my piano teacher and she taught me the basics. But after that, I would choose difficult songs to work on. And that was basically challenging songs, and I'd work on those. So, that was basically—	30:55
Mary Hebert	What were conditions like at Lincoln Elementary, and the other schools you attended? What were the books like? Were they used books?	31:44
Josephine Webb Linyear	I don't recall them being used books now. They may have been, but I don't remember them being old.	31:53
Mary Hebert	So you don't remember—	32:07
Josephine Webb Linyear	Older books. That I don't remember now. They may have been, but that I don't recall.	32:08
Mary Hebert	What about desks and things like that? Sorry to disturb you. Let's see, where do we go back to? Oh, we were talking about how the schools, you didn't think were—	32:14
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, okay.	32:25
Mary Hebert	— in Berkeley.	32:26
Josephine Webb Linyear	That I cannot remember. I really can't. Now, the books that I have, I have books from high school. I was up in my parents' attic about three weeks ago, and I have those books, and the only name that was in them was mine.	32:29
Mary Hebert	Did you have to buy them yourself? Is that how it worked, or?	32:58
Josephine Webb Linyear	Must have. I know they didn't give them to us, must have, and there probably was a fee. But I definitely have—	33:05
Mary Hebert	Have your books?	33:12
Josephine Webb Linyear	— have my books from high school. Building Better English, and for the different grades and the history book, and they weren't old, old books. So I might have to ask my husband who would probably remember about that as to whether or not they were secondhand books or not.	33:13
Mary Hebert	Were you involved in a lot of clubs and extracurricular activities in high school?	33:45
Josephine Webb Linyear	I remember having to say that a few years ago, I was honored to be the elementary teacher of the year in Chesapeake, when I was writing up things that I had done in high school. Because I was so involved in the band and the band took up so much of my time on weekends, and we had practices in the morning before school and practices after school, that was basically what I was involved in, was band.	33:54
Mary Hebert	Would you march?	34:24
Josephine Webb Linyear	Because of that. We marched, and of course, we had a concert band, and that Booker T. Washington High School Band was a real popular band. We were invited to participate in many parades. What is that parade in Washington? The Apple Blossom Parade in Winchester, and the inaugural parade. I mean, we were a really, really popular band.	34:25
Mary Hebert	Seems like a really good band.	34:56
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, it was. So, that just kept me busy, and I couldn't. I couldn't really be involved in a lot of other things.	34:58
Mary Hebert	Were you a majorette, or you just—	35:06
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, I played in the band. Played clarinet. Clarinet in the band.	35:07
Mary Hebert	And in concert band also?	35:14
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes. I was actually in band from the sixth grade through college, on the clarinet.	35:15
Mary Hebert	Were you in school when they shut the schools down in Norfolk, or?	35:30
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, I had just left Booker T., and had gone onto Norfolk State, but my sister and brother were, but it was just for a real short time, if I can remember. It wasn't a long period of time. And my memory of that is hazy, but I do remember—	35:38
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:36:11]—	36:10
Josephine Webb Linyear	— it not being a real long time. I didn't remember my sister and brother being at home, sitting around or anything like that.	36:12
Mary Hebert	Why'd you choose Norfolk? You went to Norfolk State, you said?	36:22
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, went to Norfolk State really because I really hadn't at that time, hadn't decided what I wanted to do, went there just because I knew I was expected to go on to college, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And wasn't really ready to leave home, because I finished high school at age 16. I had just turned 16. I had only been 16 like two months, so I wasn't really ready to—	36:24
Mary Hebert	Not at 16, to move away from home. Had you skipped a grade or something?	37:19
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, I skipped a grade. I was never in the second grade. Went from the first grade to the third grade. Sometimes, I don't know if that was good, because I missed out on a whole lot. But my mother, it was because of my mother. My mother, because of the fact that she had taught, and I was her oldest, she really worked with me a lot before I went to school.	37:23
Josephine Webb Linyear	Had the book already that I was going to be using in the first grade, and I just could read that before I went in first grade. And of course I had been in a kindergarten. The kindergarten at the church, I'm not sure if Essie is still at First Baptist or not, I really don't know. But the kindergarten at that church.	37:51
Mary Hebert	The kindergarten at First Baptist?	38:13
Josephine Webb Linyear	At First Baptist in Berkeley, and I learned a lot there. So, I was just never in the second grade. And as a result of that, I had just turned 20 when I finished Norfolk State. So I started my teaching career not even being a old enough to vote.	38:18
Mary Hebert	Norfolk State was a four—year?	38:52
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes. It was four—year. Well, it was four years already in education, but after my first year there in just basic elementary education, I decided that I wanted to go into music. I took piano lessons that summer and my teacher was in the music department, and she encouraged me to come into the music department.	38:58
Josephine Webb Linyear	At that time, it was a two—year program, and then you left there and went to Virginia State in Petersburg to finish up the junior and senior year. But when I became a junior, they added on the junior year, because they had enough students. And then when I became a senior, they added the fourth year.	39:30
Mary Hebert	So you were one of the first—	39:54
Josephine Webb Linyear	I was in the first class. I was in the first class to graduate in music, yeah, and that was in 1962.	39:56
Mary Hebert	Do you recall some of the civil rights things that were happening at that time? The sit—ins and things like that? Was that something that was happening at Norfolk State?	40:10
Josephine Webb Linyear	I don't remember a lot, but I do remember it going on, and Woolworth's, sitting at the counter at Woolworth's and Grant's, and it eventually happening, but I think you could buy, but you had to stand up—	40:20
Mary Hebert	To eat it?	41:03
Josephine Webb Linyear	To eat, mm—hmm. There was no sitting down to eat.	41:05
Mary Hebert	Were there rallies on campus, speeches on campus regarding those things?	41:09
Josephine Webb Linyear	I don't recall them, I don't recall.	41:14
Mary Hebert	Oh, that's okay.	41:19
Josephine Webb Linyear	Now, I'm not saying they weren't, but I just—	41:21
Mary Hebert	I'm just asking.	41:23
Josephine Webb Linyear	— really don't recall. I don't recall that.	41:23
Mary Hebert	Were you involved in a sorority while you were at Norfolk State?	41:26
Josephine Webb Linyear	Here again, first, the sororities came to the campus my senior year, in 1962. And I began pledging Delta Sigma Theta in the spring. Was in the Pyramid Club all during the summer, but my first teaching job was in Charlotte County, and because I didn't have a car first year teaching, not making very much, I was not able to come back every weekend or however often I had to come back. So, I just had to let it go.	41:32
Mary Hebert	But you had started pledging?	42:23
Josephine Webb Linyear	But I had started pledging Delta, yes.	42:24
Mary Hebert	Who joined Delta? I mean, did certain—	42:27
Josephine Webb Linyear	Well, the—	42:31
Mary Hebert	— major—	42:32
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, but my advisor in the music department, she's now Dr. Ryder, asked me to— I think, what did they have? Certain girls were asked, certain people were asked to come to a social or a little reception, and that's how we were introduced to and encouraged—	42:37
Mary Hebert	To join?	43:04
Josephine Webb Linyear	— to join. And the other sorority was AKA, and I wasn't invited there, so you just were geared, and there were friends who were also invited to come to this little reception. So, that's how I got involved.	43:05
Mary Hebert	So you lived with your parents the whole time you were in college?	43:33
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yeah, always. Because there were no dorms, actual dorms. Girls stayed in various homes. And there was one— I don't know, I think it was Phyllis Wheatley that was very close to campus. I think girls stayed in this—	43:35
Mary Hebert	It's was a kind of boarding house?	43:53
Josephine Webb Linyear	— boarding house. That's exactly what it was, basically. I can remember, I think girls stayed there. There was something on campus for boys. It may have been mainly for the football players.	43:57
Josephine Webb Linyear	It may have been basically for them. Now, my father—in—law could really fill you in on another place that the boys stayed because the YMCA, that was his part—time job, working the desk at the YMCA in Norfolk for Blacks, because a lot of the college boys stayed at the YMCA. A lot of them stayed there. So, he would really be able to fill you in on that.	44:15
Mary Hebert	Were you aware of the YWCA/YMCA? Did you go there? Did your family go there?	44:48
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, no, no.	44:54
Mary Hebert	For sports activities, that kind of thing?	44:56
Josephine Webb Linyear	No.	44:58
Mary Hebert	How did you get to and from State? Did you ride the bus?	44:59
Josephine Webb Linyear	Rode the bus. Rode the bus.	45:02
Mary Hebert	Were they still segregated at that point?	45:04
Josephine Webb Linyear	I don't recall them being segregated at that point when I was going to Norfolk State. Now when I was younger, I remember being segregated and having to go to the back of the bus, but not Norfolk State days. And something else I found in my mother's things, a transfer, this was when you would get on the bus, and I can't even remember how much it was.	45:11
Josephine Webb Linyear	But anyway, you'd put the money in and you'd ask the driver for a transfer. And this was a little piece of paper that had times on it, and he would tear off the paper, and you had up to whatever the time was at the top of the first time up there at the top of the paper to use that transfer to ride another bus.	45:49
Josephine Webb Linyear	I want to say maybe a couple of hours you had, to use that transfer, and you wouldn't have to pay to get on the second bus. So I remember using transfers going, because I had to ride two buses, but I thought nothing of it. I mean, it was just—	46:21
Mary Hebert	The way you got to school.	46:44
Josephine Webb Linyear	It was the way you got to school, and—	46:45

Mary Hebert	I watched the—	0:04
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah.	0:05
Mary Hebert	So you'd use the transfers.	0:06
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah, I used the transfer, this little thin— I have a transfer that I could show you.	0:07
Mary Hebert	Who were some of the most important people in your community? Who were some of the community leaders, the leading families, those kinds of things?	0:17
Josephine Webb Linyear	The leading families basically were the doctors because they lived right there in the community. It was Dr. Green, who eventually got to be our neighbor. Dr. Francis, he was very, very well known and he lived right in the Berkeley community. Dr. Quarles, Q-U-A-R-L-E-S, was the doctor who had the office above my father's business, and they were in business together until the redevelopment came through and they took that land. Then my father moved further down Liberty Street and Dr. Quarles chose to move into another building.	0:25
Mary Hebert	Would your father and your family have been considered part of that group or just below that group?	1:27
Josephine Webb Linyear	Just maybe a little bit below that group, yeah. Yeah, maybe just a little bit below the group. I realized that we had a lot more than a lot of people had. My mother didn't have to work and my father was able to provide for us. We were comfortable. We really were. Made a lot of sacrifices. He was able to send us to camp during the summer. He sacrificed. My brother was into scouting and when they had the big jamborees, I remember my brother going to Colorado and there was another big Boy Scout jamboree way, way off somewhere. He was able to get the money together and every summer we went to camp. So these things, a lot my friends were not able to do. I feel real blessed to have had all of those that my parents were able to provide those experiences for.	1:33
Mary Hebert	Would you go off to camps that were predominantly Black camps, Black [indistinct 00:03:02]?	2:58
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes, mm-hmm.	3:01
Mary Hebert	Did y'all ever go long trips when you were growing up?	3:05
Josephine Webb Linyear	Not a lot, because we couldn't, because Daddy worked night and day. It would've meant closing the business. Well, he had pharmacists who would come in to help him, but he still had to watch other things. So Daddy just really, really—	3:08
Mary Hebert	So they were a long family vacation?	3:32
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, no, long family vacations. We did take a trip one time with my godparents, went to Salem, Virginia and did some touring. I don't know where we went, but we stopped off at some places and we stayed in a motel and it was a Black-run motel, and we had a ball. I remember taking pictures in Skyline Drive, because I'm just thinking back now, we travel in a car. This was my dad's car that he had gotten while we were in elementary school, while I was in elementary school going to Lincoln. That was the main trip.	3:35
Josephine Webb Linyear	Sundays was a special time for us because after going to church and then coming home for dinner, Daddy— The prescription part of the pharmacy would not open up until maybe about 6:00. The soda fountain part operated. And of course, he had the employees to open up. That went on, but the pharmacy part did not open up until 6:00. I guess that was Daddy's time off, but he would still find time, especially after we got the car, to take us on these long rides in the country, riding out. I remember us taking long rides on Sunday afternoon, so that was a special time for us.	4:31
Mary Hebert	Would y'all talk? Sing?	5:27
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yeah, doing things like that. That was our basically time together. There was still always— He had to watch the time because he had to come back and then go and sort of check to see if there were prescriptions that needed to be filled, and then close the store.	5:29
Mary Hebert	Did he work that way through for as long as you can remember? [indistinct 00:05:56] retired. He worked—	5:51
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah, and he almost had to retire because he had a stroke right there in the drugstore.	5:57
Mary Hebert	So he wasn't one of these people who [indistinct 00:06:07]?	6:05
Josephine Webb Linyear	No. Uh-uh. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Because he always said, "Retire? Retire and then do what?" He said, "This is my life." And November of 1991, he had a stroke right there in the store. We decided, along with him, and he agreed, that we would close the store. So the store closed December the 31, 1991, because we knew then that he would never be able to come back. The young pharmacist who had helped him while he was sick, had his own pharmacy and was not particularly interested in buying that one. So we closed it. Yeah, but he worked up until practically the end. And of course, we moved him in January to Maryland to live with my sister, and he died in Washington, the hospital in Washington, the following of July. It'll be three years on the 21st.	6:06
Mary Hebert	When you were growing up, you said y'all would go to church on Sunday morning. Did you ever go out church excursions to the beach [indistinct 00:07:39]?	7:32
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes. Yes, there was— I think all of the churches had a day where the church went to the beach. The churches tried not to go on the same date, so that if First Trinity was going on, let's say Wednesday, another church would go Friday, so that on a particular Friday of a particular weekend. So that if you wanted to go with another church, you could.	7:38
Mary Hebert	The one [indistinct 00:08:19]?	8:19
Josephine Webb Linyear	Mm-hmm, and the beach was Seaview Beach. There might have been another one, but that was the one that I remember.	8:19
Mary Hebert	Didn't some doctors own it? A group of doctors by that beach.	8:28
Josephine Webb Linyear	Now, I'm not sure, but my mother-in-law could tell you, because she was the cook at Seaview Beach. She ran the dining hall right there at Seaview Beach. She could tell you the— I've heard her talk about those people, but I didn't know who owned it because she periodically runs into the person that I thought owned it. My husband worked there during the summer, and that's how he got his money for going to college. A lot of teenagers worked there during the summer for their college money. But she would be a person who could tell you that information about Seaview Beach.	8:35
Mary Hebert	Both of your [indistinct 00:09:28].	9:27
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah, mm-hmm. My father-in-law will be able to give you the information about Church Street, and the different businesses there on Church Street, and how he would have so much money and could get this big gigantic meal and have still have all of this money left over. Oh, he'll have you in stitches. He's a character.	9:28
Mary Hebert	Was Church Street still a vital street when you were growing up on—	9:57
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, it was. Because I was in Berkeley, I did not get to go over there too often as a child. I can understand that now. I had to be carried over with parents, although it was another side of— Of course, as I got older, my parents let me ride the bus. But I was not— Oh, yes, it was—	9:59
Mary Hebert	Were there restaurants and stores?	10:33
Josephine Webb Linyear	Mm-hmm, yes, yes. There were stores over there on Church Street, but we were allowed to go into the— I remember going into the White-owned stores there. WG Schwarz was one of the big department stores. Ames and Brownley was another big department store. Rice's was another big department store.	10:34
Mary Hebert	Were you allowed try on clothes at these stores?	11:23
Josephine Webb Linyear	I think so. I can't remember as a child, but I know as a teenager, yes.	11:33
Mary Hebert	And so things could have changed?	11:43
Josephine Webb Linyear	Mm-hmm, they could have, yeah. Of course, the big JC Penney.	11:44
Mary Hebert	There's a Penney's down here?	11:52
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes. No, no, no, this is not on Church Street. This is over in the, I guess you might call the White department store district. I remember going there. I remember my parents taking me every year during the Christmas season to see the beautiful animated Christmas displays in the window at WG Schwarz. I mean, that was something that we looked forward to as children, to see those animated Christmas displays in the window.	11:52
Mary Hebert	Did you just drive by them, or you'd go in?	12:39
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh no, we didn't have a car at that time so we rode the bus or the street car and would get off, and go and look at the beautiful— I kind of remember doing it on Sunday.	12:39
Mary Hebert	That would've been one of the trips [indistinct 00:12:59] ?	12:57
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes.	12:59
Mary Hebert	Where did your parents do most of the shopping [indistinct 00:13:06]?	13:02
Josephine Webb Linyear	Now, as far as grocery is concerned, it was Overton's, and that was in South Norfolk. Even after we moved to Camp Estella, they still got groceries at Overton's. As far as going into Norfolk, sometimes on Church Street, I remember them patronizing a store on Church Street called Tony's where we got our sneakers from, because we always had nice shoes. For the most part, it was downtown Norfolk. I mean, the White-owned department stores was where we shopped.	13:10
Mary Hebert	Do you ever remember being treated differently shopping, have people look at you strangely from [indistinct 00:14:17]?	14:10
Josephine Webb Linyear	No. There was a store called Smith and Wellton that had a very, very well known luncheon encounter. When we'd get on the elevator, you always bypass— I think it was on the mezzanine, you always bypass that mezzanine going up because you knew— I don't remember if they had clothing or anything else there, but it was a very, very popular eating spot for the Whites. We never got off on the mezzanine. It was just, you know, you'd go on the first floor going on up, but never get off on the mezzanine because you wouldn't be welcomed there.	14:17
Mary Hebert	But you were welcome in the other place?	15:13
Josephine Webb Linyear	Mm—hmm, yeah.	15:14
Mary Hebert	When you were growing up, did your parents set a lot of rules for you like you could only play in certain parts of the neighborhood, or you couldn't—	15:19
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, we couldn't go— There was lots of play area directly in front of that house on Eighth Street, and so we just had lots of fun right in that area. As we got older, we were allowed to venture out a little bit more and go and visit friends on our own. But there was always one thing, and I'll never forget this, and I was upset with my mother at first when she made this rule. She never let me go to a friend's house, once she was able to venture out, unless she had met the parent and knew what they were all about, knew where they were coming from, in so many words, and had called or knew beforehand that I was coming over, and it was okay. That was a rule that I definitely remember being around the house that they had to know the parents. I mean, at least have met them at least once before—	15:26
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:16:56] someone who was a stranger?	16:55
Josephine Webb Linyear	That's what I said, "Mom, I'm going over Susie's house." "Well, I don't know Susie. I don't know Susie's parents." And that was the way it was.	16:56
Mary Hebert	When you started dating, did you have curfews for you?	17:10
Josephine Webb Linyear	Now this was something that was real strange. My parents were real, real, I wouldn't say strict, but they really kept an eye on us. But when I started dating, my Daddy always said that, "You," not set your own times. He said, "I'm not going to give you a time, because if I give you, let's say, a time to be, let's say in at 11:00, then you're going to be nervous if you don't or you won't enjoy the date." He would say, "You just come on in when you think the date is over." Of course, I never abused it, but I felt better about it a lot. Most of my friends had to have those curfews, but that was one thing that he was real good about. He never gave me a time that I had to be back home.	17:14
Mary Hebert	But you [indistinct 00:18:24].	18:22
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I always came in at a decent time. I don't think I remember coming in past 12:00. Yeah.	18:25
Mary Hebert	Where were some of the places you'd go out on dates?	18:34
Josephine Webb Linyear	To the drive-in theater. There was a drive in theater, the South Side Drive-In, that I remember going to. Basically the movies.	18:38
Mary Hebert	Would you go to movies in Berkeley?	18:54
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes. There was a movie in Berkeley called the Ritz, R-I-T-Z. I think it was nine cents to get in. A lady who eventually worked at my father's worked in there at the confection, staying inside the theater. Miss Virginia, Virginia Mingo was her name. And yeah, we went there. But of course, as we got older— The better theaters though were on Church Street in Norfolk.	18:59
Mary Hebert	Like the Atticus Theater?	19:42
Josephine Webb Linyear	Okay. Now, the Atticus, I didn't know about, but I remember the Booker T., the Regal— Booker T., the Regal, the Rio.	19:44
Mary Hebert	Rio?	19:58
Josephine Webb Linyear	I think there was one called the Rio, but the Lennox, there was the Lennox. The Dunbar. And then in later years, there was a theater that opened up. It may have been previously all-White, the Moton. That was very close to Norfolk State's campus from Moton, I think it was a Motel Inn.	20:02
Mary Hebert	Would you go to symphony and things like that? Was there a symphony here? Was it offered?	20:32
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, no, no, no. Now, every year, and I can't remember how often, it may have been at Christmas-time, the high schools sponsored a, I want to say a Christmas thing. These were the Black high schools, Booker T. Washington High School in Norfolk, Crestwood High School in Chesapeake. Well, it was Norfolk County then. And Norcom High School in Portsmouth had, I want to say a Christmas Sing. Each choir, the high school choirs would put on a concert, and this concert would be held at the Center Theater in Norfolk. That was one of the big events for Blacks of the year.	20:36
Josephine Webb Linyear	In the Berkeley area, one of the big events was the third Sunday Choir Unions. There were certain choirs in Berkeley that— I want to say maybe there were five different churches involved, and they would rotate. One month, one church would host it, then another month, then the next church would host it like that. Each choir would sing couple of songs. On the third Sunday, I want to say it was almost a social event of the month, because everybody went to these Choir Unions.	21:43
Josephine Webb Linyear	I could almost tell you the churches that were in it. New Central Baptist Church, Mount Zion Baptist Church, First Baptist Church, all these are churches in Berkeley now. First Trinity AME Church. I named four. There may have been a fifth one, but I can't remember. I do remember, because I remember St. James AME Church might have been, but I'm not sure. But I know those because I remember going to those different churches for the Choir Union. The teenagers would sit together and all.	22:43
Mary Hebert	Were there school dances and things like that? A prom?	23:40
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes. There was a prom in high school. Yeah, there was a prom in high school.	23:44
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:23:58] Homecoming?	23:57
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, I think there was a Homecoming dance. I don't recall it too much. I just basically remember the prom. I know in later years, I remember the Homecoming, because I have a girlfriend, a neighbor, who was Miss Homecoming. She lived across the street, and was Miss Homecoming at Booker T. But she's younger than I am. She's closer to my sister's age.	23:59
Mary Hebert	When you'd go out on Maple, would you ever go to your father's soda fountain?	24:33
Josephine Webb Linyear	No. No. Uh-huh. No, we would always go to somewhere. It was basically, like I said, movies. There was another big spot in Norfolk called the Booker T. Drive-in. I can't remember if that was Black-owned or not. I want say no, but I only remember seeing Blacks working in there.	24:41
Mary Hebert	And Black people are the ones who—	25:18
Josephine Webb Linyear	Who patronized, yes. The Booker T. Drive-in. That was a big spot. I'll tell you another thing interesting about Booker T. when I was there, the cafeteria was so small that we were allowed to go anywhere we wanted to for lunch, just as long as we were back and in class for the class that we had after lunch. And there were, because of that, lots of little eating places that were right there across from the school. Booker T. Drive-in was so close to Booker T that some of us even went there for lunch.	25:20
Mary Hebert	Hamburgers and French fries.	26:09
Josephine Webb Linyear	Hamburgers, French fries. Yes. The works. I remember one whole semester, every day going to the Booker T. Drive-In, because I had money, I was able to do that. I don't ever remember carrying a bag of lunch.	26:12
Mary Hebert	Some of the children packed?	26:40
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yes. I remember children even carrying lunches in the bread wrapper bag. They'd fold it up and bring it every day as opposed to a lunch box that children carry them.	26:40
Mary Hebert	What were some of the hangouts? I'm not just thinking about teenagers, just where people would hang out in the neighborhood, that you can remember.	27:04
Josephine Webb Linyear	I'm trying to remember, because see, we were not allowed to hang out.	27:15
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:27:18].	27:17
Josephine Webb Linyear	I'm trying to remember. There was a pool parlor that was on the corner from my dad's first store, and I hope I can find the picture of the man who ran that pool parlor. I think his name was Shorty. That was a hangout. I don't recall any other. This was in the Berkeley area, and I don't recall any over in Norfolk. I don't even recall— My husband who grew up on the other side in Norfolk, I don't recall him talking about any either.	27:17
Mary Hebert	Were there any neighborhoods that your parents considered bad and wouldn't allow you to go into?	28:17
Josephine Webb Linyear	Not really, no. Maybe it was because I didn't have any friends in those neighborhoods. I mean, very, very modest homes, those row-type homes. I guess maybe because I didn't have any friends. [indistinct 00:28:51] I won't say my parents picked my friends for that, but I just didn't have any friends, so I didn't have any reason.	28:24
Mary Hebert	But you never heard talk, "Oh, that's a bad section," [indistinct 00:29:04]?	29:01
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, not then.	29:04
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:29:07] now—	29:06
Josephine Webb Linyear	Uh-huh. Yes. Not then.	29:07
Mary Hebert	Were your parents involved in the NAACP or any of the Civil Rights organizations?	29:09
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, they joined, but were never really involved. I remember my father being recognized many times by different organizations, NAACP included, but not really, really involved.	29:17
Mary Hebert	Was there a Black Chamber of Commerce or Black Business News Association that you belonged to?	29:43
Josephine Webb Linyear	I don't recall. No, I don't recall that.	29:50
Mary Hebert	Did you ever hear about some of the leading Black national figures such is Martin Luther, Marcus Garden, Thurgood Marshall, and those kinds of people? Were those people talked about in your home?	29:56
Josephine Webb Linyear	I don't recall. Knew about them, but I don't recall them being talked about, no.	30:09
Mary Hebert	Once the Civil Rights movement started, was that discussed within your home, what was going on with that?	30:19
Josephine Webb Linyear	Not really.	30:22
Mary Hebert	You mentioned that when you were teaching in Charlotte—	30:34
Josephine Webb Linyear	Charlotte County.	30:35
Mary Hebert	Charlotte County, They closed the school [indistinct 00:30:39].	30:35
Josephine Webb Linyear	Not in Prince Edward. Right next door. It sort of affected Charlotte County, which was right next door, a great deal. At that time, the Teaching Education Associations were segregated. And what happened, each Teaching Association was asked to adopt a child from Prince Edward, at least one. That child would be brought into that particular Association's county, stay with someone, and go to school there. I'm sure every county's Black Teaching Association did that. However, some of the children were sent to other states.	30:39
Mary Hebert	So the parents would send them?	31:48
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah, they would.	31:48
Mary Hebert	They went to all the schools?	31:48
Josephine Webb Linyear	All of the schools.	31:48
Mary Hebert	And did they provide private schools for the White children?	31:51
Josephine Webb Linyear	I'm not sure how that worked, but I think they did. Yeah.	31:54
Mary Hebert	And so Black children were the ones who didn't have—	31:57
Josephine Webb Linyear	Who did not have any school to go to. I got to really see that because on weekends, my first year in Charlotte County, I went to Farmville every weekend, every Friday afternoon, and stayed with a lady. Well, it was a good outlet because there weren't too many young people in Charlotte County my first year there, my age. And so I went there and I ended up playing for the AME Church because I had grown up in the AME Church in Norfolk, and I played for the church there. And to see not many children there, not many children, because they had all been sent elsewhere to school.	32:00
Mary Hebert	The Black Teachers Association did try to adopt—	32:53
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, yeah, they did. In Charlotte County, there was a boy, and there may have been two, but I definitely remember one.	32:57
Mary Hebert	Where did you live when you were in Charlotte County?	33:06
Josephine Webb Linyear	I stayed in the home of, and it was a really nice home, in the home of one of the principals in Charlotte County, the Mosleys, Annie and Essex Mosley. The husband was a teacher at the Black high school, and she was a principal at one of the elementary schools. Not the school that I taught, but she was a principal at one of three elementary schools. She had a lovely home and a beautiful basement that had a bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, and lovely living room, living area. And all of that was furnished.	33:08
Mary Hebert	So you had that basement to yourself?	33:49
Josephine Webb Linyear	I had that whole basement to myself, and I paid her $30 a month. $30 a month to live. It was like an apartment. It was lovely. I mean, I lived in luxury. I really did.	33:51
Mary Hebert	That year, was that '60?	34:12
Josephine Webb Linyear	That was in 1962.	34:12
Mary Hebert	So the schools were closed in '62 [indistinct 00:34:18]? You were just there a year [indistinct 00:34:20]—	34:19
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, I was there for two years. The second year, I still stayed with Mrs. Mosley, but there were some other people who moved, and some of them from Norfolk State who moved, who came to teach there. And so, I did not go to Farmville that second year because by then I was 21, 22. Then of course, I left Charlotte County and those people who had come there that first year left also. And I got married that summer.	34:20
Mary Hebert	You getting married was the reason you decided to leave?	35:00
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah, that was basically the reason.	35:01
Mary Hebert	Had you met your husband when you were in college?	35:03
Josephine Webb Linyear	I met my husband my first year at Booker T. We were in the same homeroom class all the way through Booker T. Of course, we went to Norfolk State. I met him in high school.	35:05
Mary Hebert	Did you have a big wedding?	35:23
Josephine Webb Linyear	No, we did not have a big wedding. For one thing, he didn't really want a big wedding, didn't want that expense of a big wedding. He had been teaching, and during that time Uncle Sam could say, "I want you." And he just took him right on out of the classroom. And so, he had been drafted. That summer of '62, of course I told Charlotte County I was not coming back, I went away to do graduate work in Indiana. I didn't have time to plan anything like that.	35:23
Josephine Webb Linyear	I got out of summer school on August 15th, and we got married on August 22nd. We had set the date the first part of the year. With me being away, I just couldn't, couldn't do it and we had to come home. He came home from Maryland, that was where was stationed, on the 15th and we had an apartment to find, we had had furniture to buy, all of that in one week. And so, it was a small family-type thing. It was held at church, but it was small, just basically family and a few friends.	36:11
Mary Hebert	You began teaching here in the Market area?	37:03
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah, in Chesapeake. Yeah, when it became Chesapeake. Yeah, that same— Got married in August. It was so funny because I signed my contract as Josephine Webb, and this is who my principals were expecting, somebody named Webb and all. But when I showed— Because I signed the contract in the spring when I was still Webb, but showed up in September as Josephine. It was kind of funny because they realized I had gotten married, but it was kind of funny.	37:09
Mary Hebert	Were you one of the first teachers to teach in one of new integrated schools in the beginning?	37:50
Josephine Webb Linyear	Music, yes. Yeah, I was one of the first. I was the first one. It was Rena B Wright. Yeah, Rena B Wright was my first. I only remember maybe one or two other Black teachers there in the classroom. Maybe one or two.	37:59
Mary Hebert	How were you selected to be one of the first two?	38:16
Josephine Webb Linyear	I don't think it was any special selecting. Every year, I'd be on pins and needles because the first music supervisor we had believed— I won't say he believed in, but he just would assign you each year almost to a different school. You'd look for this letter around August. So in August I just got a letter, "You're assigned for this year at so-and-so's school." That was where you had to go if you wanted a job. I mean, it was nothing like saying, "I don't want to go to that school."	38:21
Mary Hebert	So you went where they wanted—	39:03
Josephine Webb Linyear	Whatever school you were assigned to for the year.	39:05
Mary Hebert	Would you have to travel between schools, or you just got one school?	39:06
Josephine Webb Linyear	I always had more than one school, but never did have to travel during the day. Never did have to travel during the day. Here recently, up until this year, I've had to travel during the day, but that's just expected with a music teacher.	39:09
Mary Hebert	So you'd have one school on a certain day [indistinct 00:39:38]?	39:34
Josephine Webb Linyear	That's right. Yeah, did not have to travel during the day.	39:37
Mary Hebert	How did the other White teachers treat you that first year at Rena B Wright?	39:42
Josephine Webb Linyear	Fine.	39:47
Mary Hebert	No problems?	39:48
Josephine Webb Linyear	Fine. I still have friends. No problem at all.	39:49
Mary Hebert	What about parents? Were parents very [indistinct 00:39:58]?	39:54
Josephine Webb Linyear	If they were, I never knew anything about it. And it may have been because the principal was a really neat person. I was not the first Black there because I think I remember there may have been maybe two there at that old Rena B Wright. I never, never, ever, never call was never called nigger, never any of that.	39:58
Mary Hebert	So there weren't any problems like that with students or teachers?	40:27
Josephine Webb Linyear	Never ever. Never in anything uncomfortable. I don't know if everybody— It wasn't a thing for everybody, just didn't talk about certain things when I was around, but I was very, very well accepted.	40:30
Mary Hebert	This is kind of my final question, if you have more to add—	40:55
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, okay.	40:58
Mary Hebert	— that's fine.	40:58
Josephine Webb Linyear	Okay.	40:59
Mary Hebert	Do you remember any of the signs and symbols of Jim Crow here in Norfolk while you were growing up? Were there Black—only water fountains or—	41:00
Josephine Webb Linyear	Bathrooms?	41:09
Mary Hebert	— bathrooms.	41:09
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes, I do remember that. And it was just understood that you went into that bathroom. Once I got my degree, in Charlotte County there was a sort of restaurant bar that sold the bus tickets. There was an alley between the bar and whatever the building was, besides it in Charlotte County. It was in Keysville. That's where you had to— I had to get a ride or either a taxi ride from Charlotte Courthouse to Keysville. All of these little cities, little towns in Charlotte County. There was a little alley that you'd have to go, and then there would be a window and Blacks would buy that tickets. I refused to go. I didn't stand in front of the building and say, "I refuse to go around that alley," but I just said, "I'm not going in there."	41:10
Josephine Webb Linyear	And I went inside to get my tickets where the Whites were. No one ever said anything to me about, "You can't buy your ticket here." I don't know if the reason was because I looked professional or just what. That was my first year when I was doing all of this by myself. Then the second year when there were more people, there were actually two people from Norfolk State, but there were more young people there, and we would be coming home because one was from Corson Center. Anyway, all of us just went in there and bought our ticket.	42:25
Mary Hebert	And there was never a problem?	43:09
Josephine Webb Linyear	Never a problem. There would be people, they'd look at us, but never said anything, never said any, never ever said anything. I can't recall, I wish I could. I can't recall if that window was still there when I left Charlotte County or not, because I never had a car while I was in Charlotte County. So, I always used the bus.	43:10
Mary Hebert	I've heard that teachers were expected to dress in a certain kind of way, but to be professional looking at all times.	43:38
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yeah, we wore dresses and heels. I never remember wearing the real high heels, but yeah.	43:45
Mary Hebert	You did wear heels a lot?	43:57
Josephine Webb Linyear	Well, I guess because that was what I had seen in elementary school. The teachers dressed, dressed. I guess that was what I was expected— I thought I was expected to, but I was dressing the way I had always seen teachers dress.	44:01
Mary Hebert	Did you see yourself as a role model for your students as a teacher? Did you—	44:24
Josephine Webb Linyear	In Charlotte County, yes, because Charlotte County was a very, very poor county. Very poor. Once I left, I never really stayed in touch with any of the students, but I understand that many of them have done quite well. Yeah.	44:29
Mary Hebert	Those are all the questions that I have. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you'd like to talk about that I didn't get around to asking you about?	44:57
Josephine Webb Linyear	I can't really think of anything. I'm glad you brought up that. The things that I had thought about that I was going to mention, I brought out about the Rena B Wright School and Charlotte County, the situation there when I went there.	45:04
Mary Hebert	Charlotte County was a rural county?	45:27
Josephine Webb Linyear	Yes.	45:27
Mary Hebert	How did you get that job there? How did you decide that Charlotte [indistinct 00:45:33] ?	45:27
Josephine Webb Linyear	Well, there was a job placement office at Norfolk State, and they were constantly listing job jobs that were available. And so, I went on the interview. Of course, because the county was so poor, they didn't keep teachers too long. Most of the teachers, most people just went there to get a little experience under their belt, and then they leave. All the people who stayed there were people who actually lived in the county.	45:32
Mary Hebert	We've covered just about everything—	46:12
Josephine Webb Linyear	Oh, okay.	46:13
Mary Hebert	— if you wanted to talk about—	46:14
Josephine Webb Linyear	I can't think of anything.	46:15
Mary Hebert	[indistinct 00:46:18] bottom line, and we will get in touch.	46:17
Josephine Webb Linyear	Okay. Yeah, now I really think he— Because he loves to talk.	46:19
Mary Hebert	Okay.	46:25
Josephine Webb Linyear	I don't think he— Okay, yeah.	46:29

Item Info

Title:

Josephine Linyear interview recording, 1995 July 18

Date:

July 18, 1995

Creator:

Linyear, Josephine Webb

Contributor:

Hebert, Mary

Description:

Name: Josephine Webb Linyear; Date of birth: 1942-04-05; Place of birth: Norfolk Co., VA; Occupation(s): educator; teacher; Residence: Chesapeake, VA
Informant ID: 996; Interviewed by: Mary Hebert.

Occupation:

Location:

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1316
1735dbd8-738c-4bb4-afe3-c4a3c5534882
behindtheveil
095b9fa8-bad7-41ab-af98-ebe46cace62f
ark:/87924/r4jh3rb8s
095b9fa8-bad7-41ab-af98-ebe46cace62f

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Josephine Linyear interview recording, 1995 July 18

Transcript

Item Info

1. Josephine Linyear administrative file, 1995

2. Josephine Linyear photographs: Constance R. Miller, Gene Earl Boone, and unknown woman behind soda fountain in Webb's Pharmacy. Liberty Street, Norfolk, Virginia, 1950s

3. Josephine Linyear photographs: Enlargement of 20-0996-001-IN, circa 1949-1985

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Josephine Linyear interview recording, 1995 July 18

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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