Cassie Wells interview recording, 1995 July 25

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Kisha Turner	Okay. You were born in Wilmington, North Carolina. It's on now.	0:03
Cassie Wells	Way back during the— Well, it was in 1917 when I was born.	0:06
Kisha Turner	1917. And could you state your full name?	0:13
Cassie Wells	My full name? My mother named me Cassie Louise King. And in 1949, I married Joe Wells. So now, I'm a Wells.	0:16
Kisha Turner	Okay.	0:29
Cassie Wells	My mother's picture's up there. I show you real picture after a while. In fact— In my purse.	0:33
Kisha Turner	Okay.	0:41
Cassie Wells	My mother had 10 children, and all of them are boys except me. She had a baseball team.	0:41
Kisha Turner	Where were you in the—	0:50
Cassie Wells	I was the ninth child.	0:52
Kisha Turner	Ninth child. Said she had a baseball team, huh?	0:53
Cassie Wells	Yeah, that's right. She had a baseball team and me. That's what it is, nine, is it?	0:59
Kisha Turner	Yeah.	1:01
Cassie Wells	And there was one brother that was younger than me, just one came after I was born. She thought she was going to have another girl, but she didn't.	1:03
Kisha Turner	She wanted another girl?	1:12
Cassie Wells	Yeah. Yeah. They had a party when I came.	1:15
Kisha Turner	Oh really?	1:15
Cassie Wells	I was the first queen in the King family. Last name was King. And I don't have a picture of my brother, but I've always believed that we were related to Martin Luther King because I have a brother look so much like him.	1:17
Kisha Turner	Really?	1:33
Cassie Wells	And some of the things that happened in my life that were real prejudice. I went to a prejudiced school. We had Black school and they had White school.	1:36
Kisha Turner	What was the name of your school?	1:53
Cassie Wells	The name of my school was, the name of the high school was New Hanover County High School. New Hanover County was the county that Wilmington sits in and they named the school. And I never will forget the principal, Mr. Virgo. Virgo. He was the principal of the school. I graduated from that high school in 1936. But I didn't go away until— No, in 1935, 1935. But I didn't go away until 1936. I didn't go to college. I had two brothers in Tuskegee. So I didn't get a chance to go to school until, I had to wait until they graduated. He graduated in 19—, brother graduated in 1930. 35. So that made it possible for me to go to school the next year.	1:57
Kisha Turner	So you all couldn't go at the same time?	3:15
Cassie Wells	No, because there was too many of us. My mother, she was a soldier. She wanted all of us to go to school, even though she couldn't. She had no opportunity. She did go to Catholic school. She had the nuns took care of her, and she graduated and she was able to teach school some.	3:17
Kisha Turner	Now she was also from Wilmington?	3:37
Cassie Wells	That was in, yeah. I imagine that was in Wilmington because she didn't go anywhere else. And she was born in the outskirts of Wilmington. Used to call that Jumping Run.	3:38
Kisha Turner	Jumping Run?	3:52
Cassie Wells	Little place that used to call Jumping Run.	3:54
Kisha Turner	Why did they call it that, do you know?	3:56
Cassie Wells	I don't know. But I never will forget that. She took me down there one time, my father, my daddy put me on a horse. [indistinct 00:04:15] Red. Oh my stars, he put me on that horse and I said, please, please take me off. I couldn't stand the horse. I was afraid of horses. But he said, no, you ride, ride. I'm going to hold you. Put me up there. And you know what? It had an effect on me because I was sick afterwards, after he took me off. I'm just afraid of horses, that's all. And then we'll forget it. Took me down there. They farms and stuff down there. And—	3:57
Kisha Turner	Were you raised on a farm?	4:46
Cassie Wells	I wasn't raised on, but see my mother where she was raised, they had farming. It was farming laying out there. You know what it is out there now? You know that Greenfield Lake?	4:48
Kisha Turner	I'm not that familiar with the area.	4:58
Cassie Wells	Greenfield Lake, we used to pass that lake to go to her house. I never would forget it. And they built a real beautiful place out there. Greenfield Lake now. But I didn't call it [indistinct 00:05:17].	5:02
Kisha Turner	So you grew up in the city?	5:18
Cassie Wells	I grew up in the city. My mother, she married my father in 19— and they were married in 1900.	5:20
Kisha Turner	1900.	5:28
Cassie Wells	She was born in 1882. And she got married in 1900. She had children up until 1919. The last one was born in 1919, had one set of twins. Boys. One of the trends I never saw, because he died before I was born. Samuel. And I went to this, what they call this school? Gregory. I went to Gregory Elementary.	5:30
Kisha Turner	What was Gregory like?	6:09
Cassie Wells	Gregory was on 7th Street. And at that time, and they used to take me to school because it was too far away from my home. I lived on 14th Street. So you can imagine. And I'd have to go all the way about four blocks up to Castle. And then I'd have to walk all the way, seven blocks to get to 7th Street. And then four blocks over. So that was a long walk. So my mother had a surrey and she would take picture, take us to school in the surrey.	6:10
Kisha Turner	A surrey?	6:45
Cassie Wells	Yeah. You know what a surrey is? You've never seen a surrey. It's driven by a horse. And it's like a wagon only it's not a wagon, it's a, what we used to call a car just felt like a car. But it was fancy. It was dressed up. Had little things all the way around the top and usually had two seats in it. You look it up.	6:45
Kisha Turner	I will.	7:14
Cassie Wells	Yeah, look it up. A surrey.	7:15
Kisha Turner	How do you spell it? S-U-R—	7:17
Cassie Wells	S-U-R-R-Y. You're too young to know about that. I used to love to ride in the surrey.	7:18
Kisha Turner	And she took you—	7:27
Cassie Wells	And guess what my mother did at the time when I started school? My mother's a smart lady, she would cook dinners for the people at the cotton press. And there was a boat there, that boat. You know that Wilmington is a seaport town. And boats would come in on that river. And my mother would cook dinner at her home, put it in the surrey and carry it down there and feed those men working on that thing.	7:28
Cassie Wells	Then they didn't have anything like restaurants. There was no such thing as restaurants. And if they were, it must have been for the White only. You imagine that. So most of the men working down there were Black men anyway. And my mother would cook these good dinners and she would carry them well-balanced meal. And she would carry them in, I never will forget. I never will forget that she'd put all this food in this surrey and carry it down there. She would take us to school, go back home and get that dinner prepared and deliver it.	8:04
Kisha Turner	Would she sell it to them? She sold it to them?	8:44
Cassie Wells	Mm-hmm. They wouldn't have any money. So she kept a record and when they get the paycheck, they would pay. That was during the time when people would do things. They had honor. Today people don't honor their word, do they? Very few. Then it was a different life then. People were good. People were nice to each other. When they'd get their paychecks, all she had to do was just be done there. They'd go get their checks paid, cash and be right there in line together. What do I owe you? She'd have it. She'd have all made up. And they'd pay her. But everybody trusted each other then. It was such a nice time to live.	8:46
Cassie Wells	It's not today, it's dog eat dog. Sad. Really sad. In the media they've taken over the children. It's really sad.	9:35
Cassie Wells	Now, in my school it was all Black children, no Whites. And sometimes we would have to pass the— Well the White children went on 13th Street and sometimes we would pass them going to school. And many of them, they would ride them on the bus. [indistinct 00:10:18] Unless you lived out East Wilmington, you didn't ride a bus. The people in the city had to get there the best way they could. You had to walk or either your parents took you. And if you were small, most likely your parents took you or your brothers or some other, I lived in walking distance, but it was still a long walk for small children. In the afternoon I would walk home with my brothers. But mother would take me in the morning because they were at another school than I was in. They would come over and meet me and bring me most [indistinct 00:11:02]. Otherwise, I would have to wait for someone to come and get me.	9:46
Kisha Turner	How big was the school? If you remember how many rooms.	11:07
Cassie Wells	Let's see. It was a relatively large school because we had a lot of children. I imagine must have had about 10 or 12 classrooms. That was considered pretty good size school and most of the classroom [indistinct 00:11:37]. But then when I moved over to the high school, the high school was closer to me. And I could walk to school then. 'Cause it was on, I lived on 14th Street and the high school was on 11th Street. And I could cut two fields to get there. So it didn't matter so much. And we always had plenty of company. 'Cause I had a brother, he had two behind me, the youngest brother. And we mostly went to school together 'cause he was just a little behind me.	11:16
Cassie Wells	But when I moved to the high school, I left him over there and I had to walk by myself to school until he moved over to the school. But one of the incidents, I can tell you about this Jim Crow thing. We lived in a area on the outskirts of town and our house was here. And maybe about two, three doors was another, we call them crackers. But they were White people. But they were poor White. We were all neighbors there together, we learned the same. My folk had garden and sometimes their garden was right next to ours.	12:16
Kisha Turner	So your little neighborhood, was it mixed?	13:08
Cassie Wells	Mixed. Mixed. In other words, they were White, Blacks and everybody living. But we had different homes. But we were in the same neighborhood. And a lot of us, a lot of times, we played together as children. But sometimes things would clash. I know I had a girlfriend that when she got mad, she would spit on people. She got to get along pretty good. But I never will forget it. She spit on me one time and that was it. Before. And she never did it again. She never did it again. I taught her something. But because I won the fight, but I didn't fighting.	13:09
Kisha Turner	Why?	13:55
Cassie Wells	I would walk two blocks, many blocks to keep from fighting. If I knew someone was planning to fight me, I'd wait until they go home. And then I'd come on out later and mama would say, "Why are you home late? Why are you so late today?" I'd say, "Mama, I didn't feel like fighting." So I didn't like fighting. I didn't want scratches on my face. That's what the girls would do. Girls would scratch you. Yeah. This girl spit on me. I never will forget it.	13:56
Kisha Turner	What were—	14:31
Cassie Wells	They called me a nigger. I never will forget it.	14:31
Kisha Turner	Really?	14:31
Cassie Wells	Yeah. And I said, "Yeah, and you play and come in my house and eat my mama's bread. You're not going to do it no more." But mother didn't, she didn't cut her off because of that. Because she felt sorry for her. They were always hungry. But we had plenty because my father had a garden. And we would always, mama cooked those food, the only thing Mama would go in buy. She never had to buy vegetable. 'Cause she canned her vegetable up and that did the job. That's rolled up in it.	14:34
Cassie Wells	And in the wintertime we had plenty of vegetables. But those poor Whites, they didn't know what it was to put up things and do things like we did. My mother would can anything and they'd come and play. And mama called us in for lunch. And naturally we weren't going to leave them out there. Mama would let them come on in and eat. So they ate at our table, but we couldn't go to school together. And I couldn't understand that when I was little. And as I grew up I learned. And then—	15:00
Kisha Turner	What did your mother tell you about that?	15:37
Cassie Wells	Oh, she would say, one thing about my mother, she taught us that we were just as good as anybody else. I don't care. She said, your color is not the same as theirs, but you are just as important. That's one thing I loved about my mother. She instilled that in us. And I wouldn't be living here today if I hadn't listened to my mother because they wanted us— When this road came out, they wanted everybody on this side to move. But I wouldn't move.	15:43
Kisha Turner	All right. So when they built—	16:17
Cassie Wells	When they built this highway, see I used to go across that way. I had a road to go right through that. They built that highway. And even the friends that live over there. They told me, you're going to have to move. I said, I'm not going to move you unless I have to. So what? And when they came and they only gave me $3,500. I said, "I can't even buy a toilet with that."	16:17
Kisha Turner	$3,500?	16:49
Cassie Wells	That's all they gave me.	16:51
Kisha Turner	What year was this?	16:51
Cassie Wells	This was in 19— wait a minute. I moved over here in 1970. I've forgotten.	16:53
Kisha Turner	Okay. Was it in the—	17:09
Cassie Wells	Wait a minute. It was in the seventies. Yeah. It had to be about in 1973 or something like that. I bought this place in 19— I bought the lot, the land from Mrs. Lamb. And that was, you remember when Connie hit? You weren't born were you? When Connie, do you remember the storm called Connie?	17:11
Kisha Turner	No.	17:38
Cassie Wells	And they had, oh, Connie was a terrible storm that came here to Virginia Beach. When Connie hit, I think that was in 1967. I believe. And that's when we bought this place, but we didn't have any house yet. And the lady sold this place for tours. We didn't have a dime when we bought this place, went down to the bank and got it. And I knew the man, the president of the bank because I had done some work for him. See I make slip covers and drapers and all that stuff. Made all that. And so I had done some work for Mr. Brown and I told him what we were going to do. He said, well can you get us co-sign? So the lady I was pinning slip covers for, I asked her and she went on a note, sign a note for me. That's how we got it. And so we just kept paying it back until they paid it off. And then in the year of 1970—	17:38
Cassie Wells	No, we bought it in '67. So it must have been around '70 or '73 people were coming through here building homes for people. But they didn't build anything but the outside and you didn't have to pay but a dollar down. So we took a chance.	18:52
Kisha Turner	A dollar down?	19:12
Cassie Wells	That's all we had to pay, a dollar down. And they would come [indistinct 00:19:16] your house. And then they'd pay the rest. And my husband was a builder. See, he knew how to do building. This house wasn't like it is now, but it was same shape and everything. So he got the outside. He came in here and cut down trees and cut down trees just enough to build this house. And so when they built the outside and we came, he were living down the house off there on the road, we could go this way.	19:13
Cassie Wells	We could go and come. We were living down in a little house down. We'd come down here every day and after we get off and work until it was dark. And the lady over there— There was a trailer over there. She had a trailer and she had lights. She allowed us to run a long light. And we ran a light over here and we worked and did the inside ourselves. Put insulation in here. And my husband did the walls and we kept on until it got, it was warm then. We did work until it was warm. And then when it got cold, it was getting wintertime. He said, we got going to be able to do much work there until we get that stove. So we got a stove, used to be a chimney, put up the stove. And we used to come over here at night and work until we get tired, fix the inside.	19:49
Cassie Wells	And we kept on. Kept on. We did it, but— We said, well unless we can't move in until it gets warm anyway. And lo and behold, to top it all off, I had to get sick. I had to have an operation. So that delayed things. But I got well and then soon as April came and May started getting warm. So we decided we were going to move in here. We didn't even have any furniture moving in here. We had little furniture. Little things. We went down to [indistinct 00:21:28] and got some furniture. Had a good credit. We had good credit. Got some furniture and moved in here. Went down and bought a stove. Then we had gas stove. I don't have gas. I can't stand gas. I don't have gas. I have electric. Everything is electric in there now.	20:44
Cassie Wells	And moved in and shortly after we moved in. Oh, when we moved in, we had just adopted— I didn't have any children so I adopted my son. He might come home tonight, I don't know. but he's a driver. He drive trucks that they, anyway, he'll be 38 next year. He's 37. He's married and his wife left him. They've gotten any divorce. And their children are pictures out there. Now she doesn't ever like me to catch the children. They supposed to come to me tomorrow. But I bet she won't let me have them.	21:46
Kisha Turner	Really.	22:30
Cassie Wells	I had to go—	22:30
Kisha Turner	He has custody of them? She has custody?	22:30
Cassie Wells	Huh?	22:30
Kisha Turner	She has custody?	22:30
Cassie Wells	No, custody hasn't been assigned yet. And Joe wants joint custody. He's not going to let her have them, that's what he wants. But I said now the way she's acted, you can get full custody. 'Cause she moved out and the man moved in with her before she got a divorce.	22:31
Kisha Turner	Well what kind of work did your father do when you were in Wilmington?	23:00
Cassie Wells	He was cotton. He worked the cotton press.	23:04
Kisha Turner	Cotton press?	23:07
Cassie Wells	He worked in unloading boats, he was a, what you call them? Stevedores, they called them. He'd unload these boats. That's how mother got down there because he was working down there. She would go down there. That's what he did. And then after that ended. Later years, my mother became a nurse. She was a smart mother. My mother was a soldier. She didn't give up. She didn't. She knew how to do things and she didn't mind doing them. She taught me to sew. And then I liked it so well that I sewed for her.	23:09
Cassie Wells	You know what? I got to the point where I could sew her. And now I don't like to make clothes, but I like to make slip covers, drapers and stuff like that. And I don't make clothes. I get somebody to make my clothes. Yeah. My father, I think some of the incidents that happened in our life, even after I married, [indistinct 00:24:14] was still going on then. 'Cause I married in '49 and I remember my husband used to take me on trips and we couldn't, if you stopped to get gas, you might not be able allowed to go to the bathroom.	23:50
Cassie Wells	And if you did, they had one say White and one say White only. And the White only usually clean. And the boy, the one, they put it way around the back. They had to go way around the back. And 9 times out of 10, it was filthy and spiders and everything else in it. I tell you. And you know what, if you rode a bus, the same thing happened in the bus station. They had a White only waiting room. Had a White only bathroom. I used to say— I said, this is something quite difficult for them to have all those bathrooms. And still they have them separate like that.	24:31
Cassie Wells	But it was so unnecessary. They learned. And still a lot of things aren't right yet. You know that. And they trying to do it with affirmative action, which has helped a lot of people. And it was doing too much good. I guess the people that— too much good for the Blacks and for the everybody. Everybody profited by it. Women and it wasn't only for Blacks, it was for the minorities. And it helped a lot of women to get local, get in [indistinct 00:25:59]. Well, the time I came along, I didn't have anything to help with my parents and my brothers. And if they hadn't helped me, I never would've finished school.	25:15
Kisha Turner	Where'd you go to school?	26:09
Cassie Wells	Up in Livingston. And my brother went to the University of [indistinct 00:26:17], went to the University of Pittsburgh. And he encouraged me to go there. And I went up there for two summers.	26:10
Kisha Turner	What did you think of Pittsburgh?	26:27
Cassie Wells	Oh, I loved it.	26:31
Kisha Turner	Did you?	26:31
Cassie Wells	Mm-hmm.	26:31
Kisha Turner	What'd you love about it?	26:31
Cassie Wells	I didn't like the steps that they had to walk because it was so tiring. I didn't have any hips until I went up there. That's right. I was at least streamlined. But then I started walking up those steps and exercising my state group. I liked that Cathedral of learning. And then I liked most of the teachers up there were patient too. At that time that I went up there, it was in 1946. 1946. I went up there first summer. And that was the first time that I'd ever been to integrated classes. 'Cause see, all the classes I was in in high school and college were all one, Black. And they learned from us and I learned from them. They learned that a lot of things they had in their mind weren't right. The truth. And I think that some of those same teachers that went up there helped the integration down here. I ain't made a lot of them scattered. When you go to college, they scatter all over anyway.	26:35
Cassie Wells	I learned a lot 'cause when I came back and some of these teachers that I taught this didn't like integration when it came. And couldn't understand.	28:17
Cassie Wells	I talked with a lot of them. I said, [indistinct 00:28:39]. I had already been in integrated classes and I said the same here, that I'm in integrated classes, these kids, it'd be better for them while they small to learn how to get along together.	28:35
Kisha Turner	Was this Black people and White people who didn't want integration or only White people?	28:55
Cassie Wells	Uh-huh. These were black teachers that I talked with. Couldn't appreciate, some of them even talked about it and say, I don't like it. I said, well you know what, it's something that we all should get used to and we going to have to get used to.	29:00
Cassie Wells	And they learned. 'Cause some of those, I was with someone just a few minutes ago, because she's in my sorority.	29:12
Kisha Turner	Which sorority was—	29:21
Cassie Wells	Phi Delta Kappa. And that's what I had to leave here for, to go out there. We were having to reach elective service and I got there too late because they gave me the wrong hour.	29:24
Cassie Wells	They said six. And I said, oh, I hope she called me before then. But you didn't call if you had called, I was going to tell you to come a little later. Had you been there long?	29:37
Kisha Turner	No.	29:50
Cassie Wells	Uh-huh good. Yeah. 'Cause you called twice.	29:51
Kisha Turner	I called. It was really not much time between the two calls.	29:56
Cassie Wells	It wasn't. Okay. All right.	29:59
Kisha Turner	And you were talking about integration.	30:03
Cassie Wells	Yeah.	30:05
Kisha Turner	And people's attitudes for integration.	30:06
Cassie Wells	Attitudes changed after we had integration a while. Most attitudes changed. First integrated class I had was in Kempsford Junior High, up there. You didn't have it at UK 'cause they did away with Union Kempsford. They sent me from Union Kempsford over to Kempsford Junior High. That's over in, you know where the Rock Church is? Anyway, it's over in Kempsford. Not too far from where you are in Plaza.	30:09
Cassie Wells	Well you keep on going over that way. And you come to Kempsford section. And I got respect out of the, I got more respect sometime than away from the White children than I did from the Black.	30:50
Kisha Turner	In what way?	31:10
Cassie Wells	I had more problems with the Black children. Seemed like they always had a chip on their shoulder. Most of them.ir Few of them didn't. But most of them had a chip on the shoulder. And I had more problems with them. I had a serious problem with one boy, one White boy. Because his father was a radio announcer and he thought he owned the world. I know his father had enough money to take care of him. But the point was he was caught selling. There was marijuana cigarettes in the school. And that's what the interest. Then I knew it was time for me to go. That was in 1971 that was near, I was getting ready to retire anyway. My husband had gotten sick and I was planning to retire.	31:11
Cassie Wells	So in 1971, they caught him with these cigarettes and he was taken to jail. His father got him out of it I guess. But anyhow, he wasn't in my class anymore.	32:06
Kisha Turner	Did your mother ever tell you any stories about how things were when she was growing up?	32:23
Cassie Wells	Mm-hmm.	32:28
Kisha Turner	Would you mind sharing?	32:28
Cassie Wells	Yeah. I don't know if I have that article. But in nineties when my mother was 93, she was interviewed by a newspaper writer. And she was telling her about how when she started work. She didn't get but 50 cents said my father, sometimes she would get 50 cents a day. Can you imagine?	32:30
Kisha Turner	For doing what? What kind of work was she—	33:02
Cassie Wells	If she were to clean a person's house or something.	33:06
Kisha Turner	50 cents a day.	33:08
Cassie Wells	Yeah, 50 cents for that day's work. And when she started nursing, I don't know what year that was, but I know that, 'cause I was a little girl. I was going to high school when she started nursing. And she made 20, $25, $35 a week. That was big money. That was money then. And I can understand why she studied nursing and other folks weren't getting very much. And my father used to work. My mother said if he made $12 a week, that was good money. Then we were small, $12 a week and he could feed us and pay for the house payment and do all that. [indistinct 00:34:09] in the world. I don't know. And people could live on a little bit then. And she said that was good money. She could see the way they would do, they would buy lots of flour.	33:09
Cassie Wells	She had what you call a flower stand. And she had a meal stand. And they would have all this stuff. And see, today, we don't, we don't buy— We don't know what it is to buy anything that's going to last more than a week. They would buy stuff for the month and have her plenty. Then people would make their bread. And we didn't have any pigs. But she knew people that had them and she would always get her meat from there. My father had, we had a cow. My youngest brother, when he was small, he had ailment.	34:25
Cassie Wells	And the doctor said he need to drink plenty of milk. Told mother. Mother said, nah, I, know. You know what they did? They bought a cow. That's amazing.	35:14
Kisha Turner	That's one way to get plenty of milk.	35:25
Cassie Wells	Yeah. And I learned how to milk that cow. I used to milk the cow. Sure did. And she wouldn't kick me either. You have to handle those things right. If you don't handle them right, they'll kick you. Yeah. Now what else you want to know? You asked me about my mother's going to school.	35:26
Kisha Turner	I was just asking you if she told you any stories about the way things were when she was coming up. You said it was rough [indistinct 00:36:02].	35:54
Cassie Wells	It was. But the one advantage my mother had in that, I think she had plenty of sisters. I think she had two brothers. And it must have been about five or six sisters that I remember. Anyway, mother was one of the smartest ones, I believe. And she was next— She wasn't the youngest.	36:03
Cassie Wells	She was probably around the middle one. But because mother was so smart and she liked to go to this Catholic Church, these nuns just latched onto her. You know what I mean? And I think that's the reason. And she stuck with them and they trained her. They taught her to read. They taught her to all of her. And she had an advantage over the others in that she stayed there and did like the sister said. And she became a Catholic. But when she married my father, he was a Methodist. She joined the Methodist church. And I guess that all the mamas, all of us, oh no, not all of us. Us became Methodist. But some of us left. John, the one that married Susan lives in Baltimore now. He taught at Morgan College for 30 years. He became a Presbyterian and Douglas moved to Baltimore but he never did get married.	36:30
Cassie Wells	So when my father died, my mother, John came down and got my mother and carried him up there. Stayed with them because he didn't want mother to [indistinct 00:37:55]. I'd already married. He didn't want mother down here in Wilmington. I said, so I said, mother Miller, if you going to leave, why don't you sell the home? Nobody's going to live in it. And then you could use the money yourself. So that's what we did. Okay. Sold the home down there that we used to live in. And mother took the money and used it herself. 'Cause she was probably around a little younger than I am now. Probably around 60 or 65 or seven. And it wasn't no need. One, but the rest of them. 'Cause it wasn't much— So I said, "Listen." that she do that and she did it.	37:44
Cassie Wells	And she went on up there with John in there and stayed there. And when John married, she was with him and he had two daughters and they started growing up pretty good size. So it got kind of a tedious with mother. And I could see it. I'd see that. So I said, Douglas, why don't you get an apartment and move mama with you? Because I don't think she is enjoyed. She likes it in Baltimore. So that's what he did. Moved mother with him. And she seemed to be happier there. And she stayed with him until he got sick. Then I went up there and got her and I brought her down here and she stayed with me until she died in 1979. But John had already died because John died in '78.	38:38
Kisha Turner	When did you first come to Norfolk?	39:33
Cassie Wells	Moved to Norfolk— I moved to be in Norfolk.	39:36
Kisha Turner	[indistinct 00:39:41].	39:36
Cassie Wells	In 19— Wait a minute. I taught in Elizabethtown almost 20 years down there. In 1956. No, '54. I moved to Norfolk. Because my husband's work was in Norfolk.	39:44
Cassie Wells	He was working for a company in Norfolk. And we moved there. I didn't like Norfolk.	40:11
Kisha Turner	Why?	40:16
Cassie Wells	Oh no, it's too— I didn't like the area we were in.	40:19
Kisha Turner	What area did you move to?	40:23
Cassie Wells	I was over there in Rugby. Over in Rugby and it's congested. And we lived with a lady that was very narrow-minded. And so I knew I had a brother that lived at the beach. My brother, that's the youngest brother. And we always did get along good together. So I told him, I said, I don't like Norfolk. I said, find me a place at the beach. So his wife's aunt had an apartment and she said she going to save it for me. So people moved out. I moved down there and I stayed in that apartment until we bought this place up here.	40:24
Cassie Wells	No, we didn't. No. I moved over there. We bought the place, but I moved over there so I could be near to get it fixed, get it right. And that was on the old road, which then I could go that way. There's a road that would go right from my house. I could drive right on up there. I can't do it now, the highway's there. But that's all right. I stayed here. I stayed there. We must have stayed there about two years. I think we got this [indistinct 00:41:50]	41:12
Kisha Turner	What was it like when they're trying to integrate the schools here? What was that whole movement?	41:50
Cassie Wells	Oh, here?	41:56
Kisha Turner	Yeah. Well, when you were teaching.	41:56
Cassie Wells	I was teaching. It wasn't so bad. You didn't have too many incidents in the class. I never had any in my class because I taught math and science. And see, you didn't have as many students in a class like that as you would in some of those smaller, some of those younger folk. And I was in the Junior High. But they had [indistinct 00:42:24] at that age though, that Junior High. I had to keep those 50 children busy. Otherwise, I don't think I'd like to teach now though. It's different.	42:01
Kisha Turner	How so?	42:41
Cassie Wells	Well, I don't know the computer and it's computer age now. I was thinking about studying the computer and they going to have classes at the church, but the level was too high for me. I said, you got to take me back to elementary level. I went over there once or twice. I couldn't understand it, but I guess I could. If I took the time. It's one of those things. I know about, Kobe taught that new man, and that's what it leads from the new man where the binary and all that. So it shouldn't be too difficult. But at my age, I guess I don't need it. I don't need it. I don't need a conflict to keep myself up too much.	42:43
Kisha Turner	What about, where were you during the voting rights activities? You were still in Wilmington?	43:47
Cassie Wells	That's one thing about North Carolina. I voted before I came up here. Because when I became 21, they said that you could register. Okay. I registered, and I voted. I'd go in vote. Nobody stopped me from voting. That's something that happened in North Carolina before it happened in Virginia. I couldn't understand that. When I moved up here, it looked like it was just starting to happen. And I just went on and register. I registered when I was living, I was living over in Seatack area there, and they had a place over there where you could register. I registered and I never had no problem before, but I understand that it used to be pretty rough for people to vote. I never didn't have that problem. And I became 21. I went on to register.	43:56
Cassie Wells	Where did we go? I don't know what else you want to know.	45:04
Kisha Turner	How about church? What church did you attend?	45:19
Cassie Wells	I belonged to St. Luke in Wilmington, North Carolina.	45:21
Kisha Turner	Oh, St. Luke.	45:25
Cassie Wells	That was a Methodist church, like the one I belong to now.	45:26
Kisha Turner	You belong to St. Mark now.	45:30
Cassie Wells	Yeah. Of course, that's a Black church. Well, today a lot of the Whites go right on to the Black church. A lot of them go to our churches. Doesn't matter. And I don't think it should matter. But what church you belong to it doesn't matter. Really doesn't matter, does it? There's only one God. Anyway. That's right. So it shouldn't matter what church you belong to. Yeah. I went to St. Luke. I was married in St. Luke. You see my wedding picture up there.	45:36
Kisha Turner	Uh-huh.	46:09
Cassie Wells	And that's it.	46:10
Cassie Wells	Mother came up here and I kept her here for, let's see, from 1974.	46:16

Cassie Wells	— But we moved around little. I've been to Philadelphia too.	0:04
Kisha Turner	Did you ever travel to Philadelphia?	0:09
Cassie Wells	I have been there. My brother married a girl. She was from Wilmington but she moved to Philadelphia. That's right. Because her mother was living in Wilmington and she moved to Philadelphia. And one time I went up to see them [indistinct 00:00:35].	0:13
Kisha Turner	Oh, okay. What do you remember about your grandparents?	0:36
Cassie Wells	I never knew my grandparents because they would've been— they were dead when I was born. My father's mother was an Indian. I just know that much. And my mother's— I just know their names. That's all. Her mother's name was Penny. Penny Wilson. And her father's name was Stewart Wilson. And that's all I knew because I never saw them.	0:38
Kisha Turner	What was your first job?	1:21
Cassie Wells	First job that I had was a camp. I went to summer camp, stayed. My mother wouldn't let me work. My brother wouldn't let me work. But they let me go to that camp. And I saved my money all that summer. I didn't use any of it.	1:24
Kisha Turner	What kind of camp?	1:42
Cassie Wells	It was girls camp.	1:42
Kisha Turner	Okay.	1:42
Cassie Wells	And I was just a—	1:42
Kisha Turner	Counselor?	1:42
Cassie Wells	Counselor at the camp, yeah. I had to be one of the— I was in college. It was one of the— They had to have— Elderly people had to be there. Somebody had to be with all those girls. So I was one.	1:53
Cassie Wells	But I didn't like it.	2:03
Kisha Turner	You didn't like it?	2:11
Cassie Wells	You know why?	2:13
Kisha Turner	Why?	2:13
Cassie Wells	Too much outside. The old buildings were old. [indistinct 00:02:21] You understand? And boy, I never liked camping anyway. I like to be inside.	2:14
Kisha Turner	What were your wages? You said you were putting your money away.	2:32
Cassie Wells	My wages worked very much because I think I had about a hundred dollars at the end. I had about a hundred dollars.	2:35
Kisha Turner	Okay.	2:44
Cassie Wells	But I wouldn't have had nothing if I hadn't gone. So I said, well, I went and did that. That was better than nothing.	2:44
Kisha Turner	What job did you enjoy most of all the jobs you've had?	2:56
Cassie Wells	Of all the jobs, what jobs do I enjoy? I enjoy sewing.	3:01
Kisha Turner	Okay. You liked sewing.	3:04
Cassie Wells	I liked teaching too, but now I don't do it. I don't teach now. I don't even teach Sunday school anymore because there's so many— I taught Sunday school a long time, but I'm only a substitute now and I only teach adults. Sometimes Mrs. Grimm likes for me to teach her class because she knows I can't come together. And she has, let's see, the age she has is the juniors, I think. 11, 12, 14, something like that. Not more than 14.	3:04
Cassie Wells	But I don't catch too much for teaching now. They move too fast. Kids move too fast. I couldn't keep up with them. Yeah. I liked sewing. You know why I liked sewing?	3:51
Kisha Turner	Why?	4:00
Cassie Wells	Now I have to stay by myself a lot. When my son and my daughter-in-law used to live here, and then I had the little ones, the two little boys. It was always plenty of activity in the house. Now it's silent, so I can keep a lot of noise running the sewing machine. I used to have that room for my sewing room. But now I put my sewing machine back in my bedroom.	4:11
Cassie Wells	I have everything back there, so I don't have to worry. I don't even have to come out here much at night. I stay in here most of the time by myself. But I keep my good company with my sewing. And I make such pretty things. Last night I made some— Did I deliver them this morning? Yeah, I delivered them this morning. I made some— like that door curtain there. The lady has a garage and she wanted— She had five door windows. She had enough material for me to make drapers, like little curtain like that. It's got a rod at the top and rod at the bottom. And I finished those and my door curtain. I did that last night.	4:44
Cassie Wells	Now tonight, I have some pillows I can make if I want to. Today. I bought some large [indistinct 00:05:48] this girl wants some large [indistinct 00:05:50] around the pillows. And if I feel like sewing them up, I can sew them up. I mean, I make drapers like. Mrs. Robins and I make them together. She has a table in her shop, so it's good for me to be— We make them together. She gets on one side and I get on the other and then table them. And I figure out the pleats. I have attacking machine, now I can tack all the pleats in.	5:40
Kisha Turner	When you first moved to the Norfolk, Virginia Beach area, what were some of the neighborhoods that were considered bad neighborhoods or not so nice?	6:18
Cassie Wells	We didn't have any down here because see, that was before drugs came in. And we didn't— There might have been lot they neighborhoods down on the beach. But I moved in this area and it was sort of home area. It's not too many. But they had the little, what they call it? Speakeasies.	6:30
Kisha Turner	Wow.	7:06
Cassie Wells	They were down on the beach. I don't think they had any in this area. Private homes mainly up in this area. And I never, never— nobody was so rowdy down in this area. Quiet area over here. And now that I'm on this side, I'm over here by myself now. The closest neighbor is over there in the park. And a lot of those people over there don't even know this house back here.	7:06
Kisha Turner	I'm sure they don't.	7:38
Cassie Wells	That's right. It comes as a surprise to them. They see me come on back in here. Some of them said "Where's that lady going?" Especially in the winter. I mean, in the summer. When it grows up, you can't see the house. Did you notice that?	7:40
Kisha Turner	I didn't see it.	7:56
Cassie Wells	I know it. You don't see it until you get here. But I like it back here. It's quiet. I don't be bothering [indistinct 00:08:11]. Whenever anybody wants see me, they have to come to my house. They don't pass it. If they pass it, they [indistinct 00:08:19]	8:07
Cassie Wells	All right. All right. What else, let me see then I can tell you. Oh yes. I wanted to tell you about the train.	8:17
Kisha Turner	Okay.	8:31
Cassie Wells	And what year was that my brother sent for us? It must have been about 1930. It must have been about 1930, the summer of '35, because it was the summer before I went to college. In 1935, my brother lived in New York and he sent mother a ticket for me and my mother to go up there. And that was a train. Had to ride on the train. I never felt so dirty in all my life. That was the dirtiest thing. Train, the dust would just come down. I didn't know the dirty. When I got there, not only was my hand dirty, everything was dirty. It's coal dust coming down on you. Look like it'd been in the— I never been in a stove. You ever cleaned the stove and thought that was the dirtiest thing I ever seen? And I felt grimy until my brother came and got me. I said, "First place you take us, take us where the bathtub is," because we got [indistinct 00:09:57]	8:34
Cassie Wells	And the train. Now that's the funniest thing you had— In the train, I didn't go to the bathroom in there. I didn't go to the bathroom in the train station. I never did. I was always afraid. But I think they had those Black and White too. Place for Black and place for White.	9:55
Kisha Turner	What part of New York did you travel to? What part of New York did your brother live in?	10:32
Cassie Wells	Was that Manhattan? I think it was Manhattan. In Manhattan. That's Harlem too, ain't it? No.	10:39
Kisha Turner	Harlem's in Manhattan.	10:47
Cassie Wells	Harlem then, yeah. Yeah, it was Manhattan. Let's see, can I remember the street? 146th Street, I believe somewhere. But I can't remember— I remember that number, 146. But those were the funniest little— I don't see how any real people live there. You ever been to New York? Maybe it's different now. But I told him, I said, "How in the world y'all stay up in this little place?" I feel like I was choking. You got to go up the steps.	10:48
Kisha Turner	He lived in a row house?	11:31
Cassie Wells	You go in the elevator. No, not me. And he came down here. He's dead now, but he came down here several times before he did die. And he said, "Oh, I would love to live in Virginia Beach". I said, "You retired, why don't you come on down here?" And he couldn't get his wife to come. He died before she did. And when after he died, her home was in Crewe, Virginia. I know she wished she died first because she had it hard after he died. Her folks came and went up there and got [indistinct 00:12:15] And she never did enjoy life after that.	11:32
Kisha Turner	Were the trains, was the car you were in just Black people?	12:25
Cassie Wells	Hm?	12:29
Kisha Turner	The car, was it a segregated—	12:30
Cassie Wells	Oh yeah, they had them segregated.	12:32
Kisha Turner	Did it change after you got north of Maryland, or it was segregated all the way up to New York?	12:33
Cassie Wells	I don't know. Was it segregated then? I rode the train since, but I do remember— Seemingly New York didn't matter too much. They didn't make too much difference out of it.	12:41
Kisha Turner	What did you think of New York? Other than, I know you didn't like the cramped quarters.	13:03
Cassie Wells	I didn't like those cramped quarters.	13:06
Kisha Turner	What else? Did you like anything about it?	13:07
Cassie Wells	It was too fast for me. Everybody moved fast. Everybody, they walked fast. They did everything. They talked fast. They did. Everything just seemed like so far ahead of me. I didn't like New York because of that. But my brother, Fred, loved it. He was a baker, and boy, did he bake some of the best stuff. He ran that bakery shop. Boy, they had some good food, good bake, good pies, good everything in that—	13:11
Kisha Turner	They owned the bakery up in Harlem?	13:49
Cassie Wells	No, he ran it, but he didn't own it. The man wanted to take care of it, managed it. And he did love that. He liked making— After he retired, he got him a place in [indistinct 00:14:12]. He loved to cook. He just loved cooking, so would make cakes for weddings. And he did that. I said, "You shouldn't have retired. You should have—" He said, "Well, I don't have to go to the bakery job. I got my own now". But he would make pies, cakes, and people could order all special things he would make, even cookies. And it was good. The things he would do would be so good.	13:51
Cassie Wells	That was my brother, Fred. But he had the [indistinct 00:14:59]. I had one brother, Sylvester, one of the older ones. And you know what he liked? He liked fixing cars.	14:43
Kisha Turner	Really?	15:09
Cassie Wells	Yeah. I never forget. I know you've never heard of the Essex, have you?	15:09
Kisha Turner	Essex.	15:13
Cassie Wells	That's a car.	15:16
Kisha Turner	Okay.	15:17
Cassie Wells	Yeah. Old car. He bought himself a Essex. I never will forget it. In 1933, he had an Essex. He got sick in '35 and had to have an operation, and he never did get rid of it. Never. [indistinct 00:15:42] People didn't operate on him right.	15:18
Kisha Turner	Was there a doctor in town if someone became sick when you were in Wilmington? A doctor came to the place?	15:45
Cassie Wells	Oh, you mean to come to your house? Doctors used to go to your house.	15:51
Kisha Turner	Right, okay.	15:59
Cassie Wells	Doctor, I'll never forget, we had a doctor, what was his name? I can't think of his name now, but do you remember— Eaton. Dr. Eaton was the younger one. He was the son of the real doctor. Dr. Eaton, you remember the girl who played tennis, what was her name?	16:00
Kisha Turner	What?	16:32
Cassie Wells	Wilmington. She won in Wilmington. She won. The Black girl.	16:34
Kisha Turner	I don't follow it too much.	16:40
Cassie Wells	Oh, I can't think of her name. But anyhow, you know why she won? Dr. Eaton took her in. She was from New York. He took her in [indistinct 00:16:55] in Wilmington and let her play all the tennis. She could play basketball better than any boy I ever seen. And she played tennis, and she won the Wilmington over in England. She went over there and won out. Tennis Champ. What was her name? She's in the Hall of Fame now.	16:43
Kisha Turner	Really?	17:20
Cassie Wells	I can't think of a name, but I remember her when she first came to Wilmington, and Dr. Eaton, she used to take care of his children. But she was so good that he taught her and it pushed her. And that's how she got over there. That's how she— because Dr. Eden took her in.	17:23
Cassie Wells	See, sometimes people just need a little encouragement. She got it and she was really good in it. And she went on to win out. And now her face is in the Hall of Fame.	17:52
Kisha Turner	That's great.	17:59
Cassie Wells	That's right. But I remember her, and she was just playing that basketball when she came. She went to finish high school down there in Wilmington, but he found her in New York. And evidently she was kind of a deprived child and he took her in and gave her all the opportunity she needed, and she took advantage of it. I never will forget that. Sometimes you just, if you see someone and you can encourage them and can help them— You see, Dr. Eaton had the money and could give her what she needed, and he told that she had the talent. So they took her in and she went on, she took advantage of it. And today, I can't think of her name to save my life, but her picture is over there. Sarah has her picture on the wall. I can't think of her name, but I do remember her as a person.	18:01
Kisha Turner	Well, all right then. Thank you.	19:12
Cassie Wells	Okay.	19:17
Kisha Turner	[indistinct 00:19:22]	19:17

Item Info

Title:

Cassie Wells interview recording, 1995 July 25

Date:

July 25, 1995

Creator:

Wells, Cassie King

Contributor:

Turner, Kisha

Description:

Name: Cassie King Wells; Date of birth: 1917-04-27; Place of birth: Wilmington, NC; Occupation(s): teacher; seamstress; Residence: Virginia Beach, VA
Informant ID: 978; Interviewed by: Kisha Turner.

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English

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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77df897c-c6dc-4560-bd39-3dead121555f
behindtheveil
06626479-c536-4c74-bcc9-96229a519cb3
ark:/87924/r4wh2rq12
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Cassie Wells interview recording, 1995 July 25

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Item Info

1. Cassie Wells administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Cassie Wells interview recording, 1995 July 25

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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