Alvin Knatt interview recording, 1994 August 08
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Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Still no good? | 0:01 |
| Kate Ellis | No, it's fine. | 0:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Okay. | 0:02 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. Will you say your name and when you were born? | 0:03 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. My name is Alan Knatt and I was born on October 24th, 1945. | 0:08 |
| Kate Ellis | This is Kate Ellis with Mr. Knatt on Monday. August 8, 1994. So, you want to explain this document? (laughs) | 0:16 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. Well, we're looking at a document and it's a court transcript in the 16th district of Louisiana and it's dated December 23rd, 1902. And it has to do with my great-grandmother on — well, my paternal great-grandmother. And she was filing suit, claiming that she was heir to some property that her husband owned. And she spent the first 31 years of a life as a slave. And she was a slave of a man who's — Well, who sold property to her son later on, a lot of land. | 0:39 |
| Kate Ellis | And her son is— | 1:48 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's my dad's dad. | 1:48 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 1:50 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Okay? And my dad's dad's Mulatto. And my dad's Mulatto. I don't know if you noticed that or whatever. But anyway. And if you go through her — It's hard for me to find words. The man that she had my dad's dad with was White. But anyway, she was married in slavery, and it's in here, it's all in here. She's married in slavery. And she talks about it in the documents in court. And when the Yankees came over, there were two lakes, about five, six miles from here. | 1:51 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | When the Yankees came across the lakes, they were confiscating everything and taking people's money and and just raping women and all that kind of stuff. And people are hiding things and burying their valuables and what have you. Some of them killed us slaves, what have you. And they offered them a choice, my great-grandmother. "You come with us —" and it's in the documents. You'll see it, I think it's page 18, but her husband. She was married to a guy by the name of John Ellis. | 2:42 |
| Kate Ellis | John Ellis? | 3:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | John Ellis, yeah. | 3:26 |
| Kate Ellis | That's my father's name. | 3:27 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | You're lying. | 3:28 |
| Kate Ellis | No, I'm not lying. That's funny. | 3:28 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | John Ellis. But she was married to a guy named John Ellis and he was a slave, but they got married in slavery. You know, you jump over a broom and you're married, so now you're a property. So they did that. But in 1863, I think it's October, I don't know the date. But when the Yankees came, he left with them and he tried to get her to go with him. And she says no. And she says in the document, "No, I'm treated well. I'm not going to — I don't want to go." Well, I don't know, I place so much value on freedom until personally I don't see how that could happen. | 3:34 |
| Kate Ellis | How she could've stayed? | 4:17 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, how she could — Yeah, yeah. But she was a real strong woman. But anyway, so he left, they had three kids. He left the three kids and he went off and he fought with the Union Army. And he survived the Civil War. Then he settled in Morgan City and she got married to another guy and then had a kid by him. But in the interim, she had, that's when she had the White kid with my great-great-grandfather who was White. | 4:17 |
| Kate Ellis | Now this man, was he the slave master? | 5:00 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | He was the son of the slave master. No, excuse me. Well, yes and no. He was the son of the slave master, but the slave master died. You see, my great-great-grandmother, Theresa, was born in 1839 and my great-great-great-grandfather, her master at that time, he died in 1840, in April of 1840. So that's why I got the records. That was a closeness and I think she knew something, but she didn't know a lot about why they were so attendant to her, you know? But at any rate. | 5:10 |
| Kate Ellis | Why the slave master's family was so attendant to her? | 6:16 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Attended to her, yes ma'am. | 6:21 |
| Kate Ellis | To your great-grandmother. | 6:22 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yes ma'am. | 6:23 |
| Kate Ellis | So they paid attention to her. | 6:27 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Very much so. | 6:28 |
| Kate Ellis | She was special to them? | 6:29 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Well, I think you have to agree. You read the documents, you have to — If you were ein slavery and someone say — institutional slavery and someone would say, "Ah, you're free." And you say, "No, I want to stay because I'm treated well." But at the time, a person might make the argument, "Well, you're under duress or whatever." But 30 years later, no, no, no. But she was in court trying to get property that her second husband left and she thought it belonged to her. But see, she was married to two guys at the same time. She married this guy and he went off just a couple miles and married another woman. Then she came along and found out about it and they had a son. And now you look at parental care, and child abuse and all that kind of stuff. | 6:30 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And there was a yellow fever epidemic in 1867 in this area. And this woman talks about it in this document. Her son caught it real quick and he was on the floor. And I feel for people, even if they're dead. And she said he had yellow fear and his dad went off with this other woman, Martha Blodan. She was the daughter of a rich White man that lived about six miles south of here. | 7:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Martha Blodan was? | 8:12 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. So when the war came, they sent her to New Orleans to be out of the — so she wouldn't get killed. Of course it's smart. So Casme Jacques — he got married to her, eventually. | 8:14 |
| Kate Ellis | To the Blodan woman. | 8:41 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Jacques had two wives. He had Theresa who— | 8:44 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, but Casme Jacques was a White man. | 8:49 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, was a Black man. He's a slave. | 8:52 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, but then the woman that he married, Martha— | 8:53 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Was a concubine or a mistress of a White planter, a really rich White planter. | 8:58 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, okay I see. Okay, that's what — Okay. | 9:07 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's what I'm saying. | 9:08 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 9:08 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And you'll see that when you read the document. | 9:10 |
| Kate Ellis | All right. | 9:12 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | But yeah, that's what it was. | 9:12 |
| Kate Ellis | So the White man that had your father's father with Theresa, was part of the plantation family? | 9:14 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, no. He was different. He was from the lineage that came from Arcadia in Nova Scotia. And there was Charle and then there was Elar, and then there was Jean Matise Dugar, and then there was my grandfather, my great-great-grandfather's name, Clame, you see? So no, they were refugees and exiles from this start. | 9:32 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. So it's safe to assume that he raped your — | 10:12 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, no. Oh, no, no, no. | 10:15 |
| Kate Ellis | This is what I'm trying — How did they get together? | 10:21 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, no. That's an interesting question. I never heard a question phrased that way. No. If you look at the testimony, he's asked, and he's 69 at the time in 1902, when the judge is asking the question. And oh, the council is asking the question. "How do you know this woman?" He says, "I was there when she was born." Of course, he was born in 1834 and she was born in 1839 and he was a little kid and they grew up together. That's the point that I'm trying to make. They grew up together and they were friends. And that's why she would not relinquish her relationship with the White people that she knew in order to gain her freedom. That was family. You see? It was easy I think back then people, regardless of color, to just — I don't know. I think people were smarter back then than they are now for the most part. | 10:22 |
| Kate Ellis | Really? | 11:29 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | They didn't have to worry about color, all the race nonsense. | 11:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, now that's — I've never heard anybody say that before. Well, tell me about that. What gives you that — That was just after slavery? | 11:36 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yes ma'am. | 11:46 |
| Kate Ellis | There's a short period of reconstruction, but then there was the start of Jim Crow. But you're saying as far as the relationships that people formed with one another, they were more likely to have— | 11:48 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Let me point something out to you, okay, if you don't mind. | 12:03 |
| Kate Ellis | No, I don't mind. | 12:07 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Okay look. I don't know what my dad told you and I don't want to know. I just asked him to be honest with you. But his dad was really wealthy, really wealthy. But when— His dad's brother, see, his dad had a lot of brothers and sisters, but they were all educated. Because after the Civil War, during reconstruction, Black people had schools and they were educated. But you see, my dad is the last surviving sibling of 13 kids and he can't read. You see? And all right. And it's because the opportunities were not there. That's why I told you that Jim Crow it's invidious, it's bad. And I know that firsthand, and I can tell you a lot more than that, but I'm trying to make that connection clear. | 12:10 |
| Kate Ellis | So his parents, his father had an education. His father you said was a wealthy man. | 13:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | His grandfather's. His grandfather, and his grandfather and all of his grandfather and all the brothers and sisters, they were educated. | 13:36 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 13:48 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | You see in about the 1890s, things got bad when it got bad. | 13:49 |
| Kate Ellis | That's when it got bad. | 13:56 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And nobody got the education. | 13:57 |
| Kate Ellis | I see, so the children of those grandparents didn't have an education. | 13:58 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | They just, they [indistinct 00:14:02] an education. | 14:01 |
| Kate Ellis | And his siblings really didn't get an education. | 14:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Thank you ma'am. There you got it. There you got it. | 14:05 |
| Kate Ellis | But his father did well for himself because — You said his father was a wealthy man. Is that right? | 14:07 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, very wealthy. | 14:17 |
| Kate Ellis | Because of the farm that he— | 14:17 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, because of his association with — Well, because of his dad. | 14:20 |
| Kate Ellis | Because of his father's father? | 14:26 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, no. His father was White. My grandfather's father was White and he had a lot of property. So he gave him land just free. So he was really wealthy. So that's why. And I mean, I'm getting a little bit ahead of you I think, but we got relatives. We have a little farm out to the south of here, and we got relatives there. They're White. And you look at my dad, you look at them, they're the same. They're related and they know that. But here, so Jim Crow works such — To me, I would, "Hey, it's no problem." But to them, my dad calls his nephew maybe three times removed yes sir, no sir. It just doesn't make any sense to me. But they plan in a system that is that way. It's kind of sad in that way, but you got to get out of it and it'll be able to look at it. | 14:26 |
| Kate Ellis | But no. I'm not saying anything only because I — | 15:48 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Maybe I'm talking to you too much. | 15:57 |
| Kate Ellis | Nope, nope, nope. No, keep going. I was thinking about what you said just reminded me of a man I talked to a while ago who in his 90s who— | 15:59 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Really? | 16:12 |
| Kate Ellis | — you came up yeah, working sugar cane, salt mine, everything. No school. There was no schooling available for him. Even though there was some school nearby, there was no way he could do it, of course, because he needed to work in the fields, which is, I don't need to tell you. Was the case for many people. But he was just telling me about — His kids are all college educated and went up to New York and are in Rochester, have good jobs and they came. | 16:13 |
| Kate Ellis | But he told me, he was saying about how he was with his daughter one point some time ago, I didn't get the details of the story because he didn't tell me details, but he was saying that she had, it was either a White employer or White friend. And she was saying to him, she was like, "Dad, when you meet them, don't say yes sir or yes or no ma'am. Yes'm. Don't address them that way." He's like, "By God, I will address them that way. That's the way I was raised to at that time." So it's just interesting, again, that kind of — And with the different generations, you come up at a different time and can — | 16:40 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, but let me show you something, Katie, if you don't mind. You see the woman over there— | 17:21 |
| Kate Ellis | On the television? | 17:25 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | On the television. My dad told you anything about her? I was married to her for 16 years and she's a Shawnee Indian. And my parents, "Oh, no, no, no." And we are really Indians. So I felt comfortable and, "Oh no, you can't, you can't, you can't." And this is my daughter right here. | 17:26 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh wait a minute. | 17:58 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, wait a minute. I can just point. | 17:58 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, I'd like to see. If I can just unhook you for a second. | 18:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Well, four daughters and the son. | 18:03 |
| Kate Ellis | Where are they? | 18:08 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Well, see that's what I was talking about. Yeah, anywhere. It doesn't matter. They're in Kansas, one in Wyoming, one in California. And my son's in the Marine Corps. And I hate racism, but that's not why you're here. | 18:09 |
| Kate Ellis | Yes it is. | 18:34 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, is it? | 18:34 |
| Kate Ellis | I mean it kind of is why I'm here. | 18:34 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I despise racism. And when I was growing up here, I hated racism. I don't know why. I mean, I just despise it. We used to live with White people and there was no problem. The real problem, as I perceived it later on, I didn't know what racism was about until I was about 13 years old. And because White people and Black people lived in harmony together. It was no problem. I mean, I didn't even know I was Black. | 18:37 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Then we started seeing, when we went to movies, we had to sit in the balcony and the White people sat in the bottom. How we go in the same car and we had to split and go and then they got to come back and get in the same car and go home and say, "Damn, that was a good movie, wasn't it?" I'm tripping out over that. I don't understand that. It doesn't making any damn sense. And when I was in high school, I remember, just before I graduated from high school over here, two things you couldn't talk about in high school. One was communism and the other thing was integration. So when I went— | 19:10 |
| Kate Ellis | You couldn't talk about it. | 19:55 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh no, you couldn't even discuss it, you couldn't bring up the subject. | 19:56 |
| Kate Ellis | Now you were born — Are you '45? | 19:59 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | In '45, yeah. | 19:59 |
| Kate Ellis | So was right around 1960. Oh, I guess— | 20:01 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | '63. Yeah, '62, '63 | 20:04 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. When it was all happening, you're right. | 20:05 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, Fidel Castro took over from Batista, you know that era? Yeah, it was that. | 20:07 |
| Kate Ellis | But your school wasn't integrated at that point? | 20:16 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh no. Oh no. | 20:18 |
| Kate Ellis | Y'all didn't integrate until '69, is that right? | 20:19 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | See, I don't know because I wasn't here then. | 20:23 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, okay. | 20:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I don't know when they did it. But when I left, when I graduated, oh no. | 20:25 |
| Kate Ellis | This is an off limits topic. | 20:30 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's right. Well, it's not like, it was kind of stupid because people were having intimate relationships, White people, both ways. I mean men, women. But no, legally it wasn't permissible. (laughs) That kind of, it would trip you out. | 20:32 |
| Kate Ellis | A while ago, one thing that just got us into this branch of conversation was when you had said like in the 1900s, that people, that it didn't make as much difference as far as— | 21:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh no, ma'am. If you look at the records, if you go and look at the records in this parish, this parish used to be a part of St. Martin Parish. And if you go and look at the census for this parish, and you scan it just peripherally, you're going to see something. You're going to see a lot of White people. And they are mostly French. They're French, not from Nova Scotia like my ancestors were. They're French from France. Because I don't know why the French used to — The proprietors and the marketeers, and the physicians, and whatever came, and teachers came from France. | 21:14 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I don't know why if that's the case. I never looked into it. But you'll see a lot of those people married to Black women. Usually you'll find that it was Black, I mean, White French married to Black women. And people used to come from other states to come and get married in Louisiana, because Louisiana did not have any kind of laws restricting interracial marriage. | 21:58 |
| Kate Ellis | Really? That's so interesting. It's so hard to imagine now coming to Louisiana to do something like that. | 22:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I'm going to tell you something else. I was lucky enough. See miscegenation laws in Louisiana came about, in my research, in about 1891, 1892. | 22:29 |
| Kate Ellis | So with the onset of Jim Crow? | 22:46 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yes, ma'am. Then I had the good fortune to know a lady in Lafayette, Louisiana. I don't know if you're familiar with where that is. It's about 20 miles west of here. Her name was Shirley Prejen, P-R-E-J-E-N. And I knew her when she was a teenager, and I dated her and everything. And in 1967, she got married too. And she hated White people. And she was a Mulatto, but she hated White people. And she got married to a White guy who was an attorney. Really nice, a good attorney. He was nice. And she later became an attorney and everything. But she hated the White people because her dad was a professional baseball player and he was killed. And he was killed by members of his own team because he was Black. At that time, there were Black baseball teams, White baseball teams, that kind of stuff. | 22:49 |
| Kate Ellis | There were Black teams or White teams. | 23:53 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | They couldn't play together. | 23:55 |
| Kate Ellis | Right, and he was Black. You said he was Black. | 23:56 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | He was Black, but he was allowed to beat on the team because — He was like you. I'm not trying to assault you or anything, but okay, you couldn't distinguish him. He was so light-skinned is what I'm saying. | 24:01 |
| Kate Ellis | So the Black people, the darker-skinned Black people on his team killed him? | 24:17 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No. | 24:21 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, he was on the White-skinned team or the White team. | 24:22 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | The White team. | 24:25 |
| Kate Ellis | I'm sorry. | 24:25 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | The White people killed me. So that's why she hated White people. | 24:28 |
| Kate Ellis | How did they kill him? | 24:29 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | They just plunged, bats and stuff like that. They killed him. You understand why she would be hate — But you see to me, the parody is, how could she ever — And when I met her, she would always tell me, "I hate White people." I couldn't understand. I don't like people saying that. Then all of a sudden she told me one day. But I understand. | 24:31 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, now I understand. | 25:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 25:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Tell me more about — | 25:30 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Let me do something for you. | 25:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Yes. | 25:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | It's not going to take long, but this is whatever. When I was growing up, I wanted to be an actor. And my mom said, "Oh no, you can't be an actor because all actors are homosexuals." And I said, I felt I was straight, I didn't have to worry about that. So I went into college and I went into speech and drama. And went right into doing some nice productions, the classics and all that nonsense. I was enjoying myself. She kept bickering at me. So I said, "Hell, I'll change my curriculum," and I went into political science and philosophy. But I always wrote poetry. And I want to do a little piece for you, if you don't mind. | 25:36 |
| Kate Ellis | I don't mind. | 26:36 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I want to do two. One, it's called Weep Not. Weep not for me mother, because the weighty middle years have spread themselves upon me like — No, wait a minute. I'm kind of nervous. I'm going to do it for you though, because I know it really well. | 26:37 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | "Weep not for me mother because the weighty middle years have thrusted themselves upon me with the impunity of a fat board who bounces upon the body of a skinny class, middle playground of a public school at recess time. If you must weep or even sigh deep, let it not be for me, but for the misery of our Black brothers." | 27:16 |
| Kate Ellis | I want to hear. | 27:37 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, wait a minute. But I'll tell you what's happening. I'll be honest with you. It's your eyes, they just make me forget it. It's that. I know my work, but I don't mean to be personal, but it's your eyes. It's messing me up. That's all right though. | 27:41 |
| Kate Ellis | I want to hear it again. | 28:12 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, I'll do it for you. I'll do it. | 28:13 |
| Kate Ellis | You want to try it now? | 28:16 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, let me see something. | 28:16 |
| Kate Ellis | Breathe. | 28:16 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Let me do another one. Maybe I can come back to that one a little bit. I call this one Autumn Coming, Autumn Coming, the fall. | 28:32 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | "I hear the roughed up [indistinct 00:28:44] the feet of autumn thundering. Rumbling —" | 28:42 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No. (laughs) This has never happened to me before. I get on stage. It's never happened. I know what the problem is. It's not a problem here, it's a privilege. But I just know what it is. I got copies of it. I'll give it to you. | 28:51 |
| Kate Ellis | Would you? | 29:12 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. But I wanted to do it for you myself, but I just can't. I can't. I'm sorry. Anyway. | 29:13 |
| Kate Ellis | Well let's try it later. | 29:26 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | All right. | 29:31 |
| Kate Ellis | Because I'd like to hear. I want to hear more about the area where you grew up. Did you come up in Bell Place? | 29:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yes ma'am. Yeah., yeah I came up there and — It was nice. It was nice, really nice. And I saw a lot of violence when I was a child. | 29:46 |
| Kate Ellis | Violence? | 30:00 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh yeah. | 30:04 |
| Kate Ellis | Among whom, who was — | 30:05 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I saw violence among Blacks and Whites. You see, you still have that residual effect of violence among Blacks and White in this area. And it's one of the things that I find most objectionable about living in this environment because — But all I saw, yeah, I saw a lot of violent things. You kill a nigger and throw him in about here and it's gone. It ain't no big thing. I seen that as a child. So when I went to war and I had to do that kind of thing, it really didn't bother me. But now, I'm almost 50 years old. Sometimes I got to sit down and look in the mirror and say — "Where are you?" And I can't talk to them. I'm serious. You just got to find somebody to talk to. And I think what tripped me out with you is 70% of all effective communication is nonverbal. And when I look in your eyes, that's why I don't look in your — We're here to talk. | 30:07 |
| Kate Ellis | Which war were you in? | 31:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | In Vietnam. | 31:31 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 31:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, yeah. I was at Chu Lai and I was in Da Nang. No, you don't want garbage. | 31:35 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, I do. | 31:44 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Really? | 31:45 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 31:46 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | You want know about people being killed? All right. | 31:51 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 31:59 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Let me tell you something. One time I was in Chu Lai, which is on the coast on Vietnam. And you live from day to day. You never really think that, "Well what about when I leave here and go home?" I never expected to go home. | 31:59 |
| Kate Ellis | You don't make plans. | 32:20 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, you just don't. And I wouldn't even try to have any kind of meaningful relationship with a woman. It was just kind of hit-and-run because either I'm going to be dead or you going to be dead and I don't want to have to grieve. I didn't even know how to grieve, kiddo. And one day, I would see my buddies dying and people dying all the time. Then one night, about this time, maybe a little later, we were drinking beer and sitting around. And I saw this, looked like a storage area I never seen before. | 32:21 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | But we had been on Bien for about around, oh, I don't know, about a week, 10 days. And I went over, I walked over by myself and I looked. There was about 300 GIs, American GIs, dead. Just like they were picked up, they were spread around. And I looked at them and I walked through there, and that there were lights on. And I looked at them and everything. And I got to the point where I did not want to be affiliated with that war machinery. I just hated the military. But I didn't get out of it or anything until my time was up, but I hated it. You know what I mean? | 33:09 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh yeah. | 34:00 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And I still hate that. Some of my friends were killed, good friends were killed. | 34:01 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, and it sounds like what you said before about your brother. | 34:03 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | The one that spent the — Yeah, yeah. He spent there three years, I mean three tours in Vietnam and all those years in the military and then died. | 34:13 |
| Kate Ellis | When you came back. | 34:25 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, and at his funeral — but that's got nothing to do with what we talking about. | 34:28 |
| Kate Ellis | Just go on, finish what you were going to say and then we'll go back. | 34:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | When he died, he died and I was in Kansas when he died. And I was working for a nuclear regulatory agency who had a plant at Burlington, Kansas. Really out the way place, but money was nice and I liked what I was doing and everything. So I did that. And my brother was dying. And these fools would not — Did not want me to go. "We need you. We need." I said, "My brother's dying." So I left and I went. And then he died, but I tried to get my dad to go. My dad wouldn't go. | 34:37 |
| Kate Ellis | To go where? | 35:16 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | California. He live in Hisperia, California. | 35:17 |
| Kate Ellis | In where? | 35:20 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Hisperia. | 35:20 |
| Kate Ellis | You know where Santa Monica is? | 35:23 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 35:24 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah, it's right next to Santa Monica where Gene Autry lives. You know Gene Autry? Play the guitar and ride a horse and all this. | 35:25 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Okay. | 35:31 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 35:32 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | So your father wouldn't go out there to — But he doesn't like to. He doesn't like to. But anyway. | 35:33 |
| Kate Ellis | Doesn't like to what? | 35:38 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | He doesn't like to move around and go different places. But anyway. | 35:39 |
| Kate Ellis | But you said that when you were coming up, you saw violence between Whites, Blacks. I mean you saw Whites killing. | 35:48 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh yeah. Black people. Oh yeah. | 35:56 |
| Kate Ellis | Will you tell me about that. What would happen? | 35:57 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | One time when I was about eight years old, there's a little village about, oh, I don't know, nine miles from here. | 36:04 |
| Kate Ellis | Called what? | 36:12 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Louisville. And it was bad. Let me show you about the hypocrisy of it all. We had maybe three stores in the village, just like a little town, I guess, had three stores. And at the end of the store was a little place where Black people could go and get drunk, and drink and stuff like that. And what was I think more ironic was that the proprietor of the whole establishment was sleeping with a Black woman. Her name was Marybelle Olivia. And sleeping with. She was a Black woman and his name was — I don't know if you met her yet, but and she go down there you see. And it used to be big signs, "No Colored allowed." | 36:13 |
| Kate Ellis | But he was sleeping with— | 37:19 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 37:21 |
| Kate Ellis | Matier? | 37:21 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, Matier. | 37:21 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, so that was the store. | 37:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, he was the store owner. And the store's still there. And look, when I was 11 or 12 years old, we'd take our bicycles and go out there and buy wine and drink. And he sell wine to us no problem. I have a brother that's about 10 and a half months younger than that and we'd go on bicycles. And our friends who were White. And the counter was about like this and we were that tall and he just sell us wine. We could go out. We'd build camps and stuff like that. We had a lot of wooded area, a lot of land. We could get lost. It was nice. | 37:26 |
| Kate Ellis | But the hypocrisy signs he had in a store, you mean, "Colored not allowed or whatever," but he's sleeping with a Black woman. And you're saying he would serve you whatever you needed, whatever you wanted. | 38:20 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, whatever I wanted, whatever I needed. I don't think it was because I was Black. I think it was — No, he do this with anyone. It was because he was just a scrupulous. He didn't have any ethics. | 38:33 |
| Kate Ellis | As far as selling wine, you mean as far as selling wine to a 12 year old. | 38:48 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Wine, yeah. But I used to do that. I was 13 years old and I'd come, my dad would raised peppers and I'd take 2000, I mean, yeah, 2000 pounds of peppers. She going to get it for me. I'd take 2000 pounds of peppers and bring it into town. And on the way back, I'd stop and buy beer and drink. No big deal. Now, I think we've regressed. I think we've taken giant steps backwards really, race relationship and interpersonal relationships. I think we've moved backwards. I'm disappointed in the administration and national administration right now because I think we moved backwards. B | 38:52 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | ecause at that time, we could do that kind of thing. But now the kids are doing some more serious things. These kids around the neighborhood, they will walk around and try to kill you just because you happen to be a human being. They're going to kill something. You see? Y got to be careful. You see? We never did that. | 39:40 |
| Kate Ellis | I'm interested in what you — Again about as far as the White violence against Blacks. As far as lynching is concerned, it's generally something that's considered to have happened around the turn of the century and having abated by as far as reported lynching, that really goes down by the 1940s, certainly by the 1950s. | 40:07 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Let me tell you something. I was in Biloxi, Mississippi when I was in the military. I was a spy, you see. And I know that's going to kind of shock you, but I was. And I'm just telling you straightforward. I can give you another acronym for it, but I'm being for real. And I was in training then to be a spy. And I was in Biloxi, Mississippi, Keesler Air Force Base. And I was walking down the street, the main street, I don't remember the name of it, but it runs parallel to the beach in Biloxi. And was a White guy, and another White guy jumped out of a car, picked a part of the street. This is no kidding. And he was running behind me. And this guy looked like he was a hulk, and he's running behind me trying to throw part of the street on me. | 40:36 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | So I got out of the way and I didn't get hurt physically. And I looked and I saw a cop, and I waved the cop down and he tried to act like he didn't see me, but I waved him down. I got in front of him and he made sure that they got out the way. Then he told me, "Boy, you ain't got no business down here." And all that kind stuff. I said, "Oh lord." And you know what we were doing? Just walking down the street. But I don't know. I don't know. | 41:36 |
| Kate Ellis | What about in the community that you came up in? Who were your White neighbors? | 42:17 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | My dad's relatives. Right when we grew up, we grew up in the house side by side. They were real close. And they were my dad's kin. The woman was my dad's cousin, but she was White. And yeah, we grew up right next. But her husband was bad. | 42:26 |
| Kate Ellis | Was what? | 42:46 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | He was from World War II. He was kind of wacko. | 42:52 |
| Kate Ellis | He was kind of messed up from the war. | 42:55 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Messed up. Yeah, from the war. Yeah. | 42:57 |
| Kate Ellis | So they were White and they lived— | 42:58 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Right next door to us. And see, we grew up together. | 43:00 |
| Kate Ellis | So you all were friends? | 43:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh yeah. | 43:04 |
| Kate Ellis | What you had said in the beginning is just how you had White friends when you were coming up. | 43:04 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh yeah. | 43:09 |
| Kate Ellis | It wasn't until you were a teenager. | 43:10 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | As a matter of fact, most of my friends were White. | 43:12 |
| Kate Ellis | Were they all farmers in that community as well? | 43:15 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, as far as I knew. Yeah. | 43:18 |
| Kate Ellis | Let me ask you again more about just the family history stuff, I guess, and this is referring to some stuff that your father had just mentioned a little bit of, as far as the land that his father had bought and cleared. The wooded land that his father had bought and cleared. And he was going in, I guess on a venture where he was going to grow rice with a White guy and the rice market fell, that went bust. And then the White guy got the land. | 43:21 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 44:02 |
| Kate Ellis | What? | 44:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Well you use what you want to use, but I'll tell you what I know to be factual. Two things come to mind. One is, my grandfather had some, let's call them misadventures. And a little bit has to do with White women. And that's how he lost the farm. | 44:03 |
| Kate Ellis | What do you mean? | 44:29 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | He had a liaison with a White woman who was a swing. And you never know about those things whether or not she swindling out of the money and the property, or whether or not the records would not displayed that, or whether or not — I don't know. But I know that, that affair did occur and it was a long term thing. | 44:31 |
| Kate Ellis | He lost the land. | 44:58 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, he lost the land. | 44:59 |
| Kate Ellis | You're saying maybe by being swindled by her as opposed to — | 45:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I can't say whether or not it was her, because I don't even know. I don't know anything about her personally. So I don't know. But I know that, that's the reason, but I can't describe — I wasn't even around when she was living. But I know that, that's the reason why it happened. | 45:08 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And he couldn't say it, and my dad won't say it. That's some things my dad will not tell you. That's why I'm glad you spoke with him before you spoke with me, because he won't tell you some things. I'll tell you everything I know, and you do what you want with it. | 45:31 |
| Kate Ellis | What else would he not tell me? | 45:46 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I don't know what he told you. Told you that his grandfather, his grandfather was White? | 45:49 |
| Kate Ellis | He told me that after I turned the tape off. | 45:54 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, okay. See, he's scared. But I don't know. | 45:58 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, let me ask you a bit more about as far as — Let me see if this tape is running out. I think it is. I got to turn it over. I guess when he was coming up — all the people around him were Black, they were farmers. Does that sound right? I mean, as far as Bell Place is concerned, they had farmed. | 46:07 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, they had farms. Yeah. Well, wait a minute. I'm going to tell you something. I want to tell you something. But see, this person's no relationship biologically to me, you see. John Nat the first was a slave for 61 years. | 46:34 |
| Kate Ellis | — that's great. Would you just repeat that last sentence? John— | 0:01 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | John Knatt I was born in 1804, in Accomack County, Virginia, in the Tidewater area, as a slave. But there were free Blacks around. I don't know how it became his fate to be a slave. But anyway, when he was 25, he was shipped south, and he ended up here. Now, to make a long story short, and it's a beautiful story, if you have the time to listen, but I'm not going to bore you with all of those details. But when the Civil War ended in 1865, John Knatt was a free man. | 0:05 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | In 1870, and I have documents, I think I might have them here to show you, he bought a plantation from the son of his ex-master. He was in his 60s, and he had been a slave for all that time. And so what it tells me is that there's no such thing as just giving up because things are not going right for you at a particular time, you've just got to go on. And he's given me— I don't think I could find any more strength than just to know that. But he was not biologically related to me, because my people were not Knatts, they were Dugas, they were White. | 0:55 |
| Kate Ellis | Dugas? How do you spell that? | 1:44 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | D-U-G-A-S. | 1:44 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. Is that the name of the Whites who you're related to— | 1:49 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Over in the country, yeah. | 1:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Over in the country. | 1:54 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 1:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 1:54 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 1:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. Getting back to this question, as far as who your father came up around in Belle Place, his neighbors were mostly Black farmers— | 2:00 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 2:15 |
| Kate Ellis | — who had land? | 2:16 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, yeah. | 2:17 |
| Kate Ellis | He said, again, I think was at the end of the interview when I turned off the tape, that most of those people lost their land to Whites. | 2:18 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, that's true. What happened is that in the 1920s, oil was discovered in that area, and there was a lot of oil, you see? And so, I can show you documents of sales and what have you. Land was being bought up that way, real quick. | 2:26 |
| Kate Ellis | Land was— I'm sorry. | 2:55 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Being bought. | 2:56 |
| Kate Ellis | But this is the thing, I guess— | 2:57 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | They bought the Black people land. | 3:00 |
| Kate Ellis | They bought it? | 3:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | They bought it. | 3:03 |
| Kate Ellis | For a song, I mean, for nothing? | 3:04 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, you hear me. Yeah. | 3:06 |
| Kate Ellis | Because— | 3:07 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Sometimes they bought just the mineral rights, and left them with the land, but with the rights to go up on the easements, and they made the easements twice as large. You know how it was. | 3:09 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, that's what I want to hear about, though. | 3:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 3:24 |
| Kate Ellis | I, personally, have not heard that particular story about the oil. | 3:28 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Really? | 3:32 |
| Kate Ellis | This is what your father had mentioned. | 3:32 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, yeah. | 3:33 |
| Kate Ellis | Tell me— And again, I keep looking this— what was it, Schwing? What was the name? | 3:37 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | S-C-H-W-I-N-G, Schwing. | 3:38 |
| Kate Ellis | Schwing. Okay. | 3:38 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Mm-hmm. John Schwing. | 3:38 |
| Kate Ellis | So you're saying— I'm not at all trying to pit you against your father, I'm just trying to get a— | 4:00 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, no, no, no, no. | 4:00 |
| Kate Ellis | When I asked the question— | 4:00 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No. I understand research. | 4:00 |
| Kate Ellis | No, no, no, I want to— | 4:00 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I didn't want to try to compromise your research. | 4:00 |
| Kate Ellis | No, not at all. So your father was saying, "Look, John Schwing knew that it was a basin of oil—" | 4:01 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's right. | 4:05 |
| Kate Ellis | — that your father had. | 4:06 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's right. My grandfather. | 4:07 |
| Kate Ellis | I mean, I'm sorry that your grandfather had. So that is why he basically swindled him out of land. That because your grandfather couldn't read and write— | 4:10 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | You're right. | 4:19 |
| Kate Ellis | — then he could sign a document and sign away his land? | 4:22 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, you're close. But you see, what John Schwing did, he used his wife. He used his wife whose name was Anna to— But you see, I can't really say that. But from all indications, he used his wife to get to my grandfather, personally. | 4:26 |
| Kate Ellis | I see. | 4:51 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | They had an intimate relationship. But he was controlling things, you know what I mean? | 4:53 |
| Kate Ellis | I've got it. Okay. So as far as other people in that community who lost their land, it was bought real cheap. | 5:03 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, ma'am. Yeah, in a way, in another way. My grandfather, if you look at some of the records that I have, my grandfather, my dad's dad, bought some land from John Schwing— I mean, bought some land from a Black person and a week later he sells it to John Schwing. And then John Schwing disposed of it to some oil company. Yeah. I mean— | 5:11 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, it's a really interesting question as far as— And one thing that we've just become interested in as we're here, is how did African Americans in this whole area, in Iberia Parish, lose their land? | 5:38 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, yeah. | 5:51 |
| Kate Ellis | What was going on? And again, how are the connections with their White relatives, like implicated— I'm not stating a real well-formed question. But just want to see what I'm trying to get at. I mean, as far as who had land? How'd they get the land? I mean, and then how did they lose the land? | 5:53 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. I hear you. | 6:19 |
| Kate Ellis | And then kind of what kind of— | 6:19 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I hear you. I mean, I already told you that the land that he was talking about was quite a considerable acreage. But his brothers had a lot of land, too. I mean, my grandfather's— The Black ones, they had a lot of land. | 6:26 |
| Kate Ellis | Now they were able to— | 6:41 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | He told you anything— Excuse me. He told you anything about his mom's relatives, the Indians? | 6:42 |
| Kate Ellis | No. | 6:50 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No? | 6:51 |
| Kate Ellis | But tell me. | 6:52 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I wonder why he didn't do that? | 6:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Just was not a— I don't know, it wasn't necessarily anything he had to hid. | 6:54 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | His mother was a full-blooded Chitimacha Indian. And— | 7:03 |
| Kate Ellis | How do you spell that, Chitimacha? | 7:08 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Chitimacha, C-H-I-T-I-M-A-C-H-A. | 7:12 |
| Kate Ellis | Mm-hmm. | 7:12 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's why— You see, he'll have a beer like this and he'll start dancing on the table. I mean, that's the way we are. But anyway, some of his brothers and sisters chose to be Indians. And some, like I was trying to tell you at first, and we got diverted, chose to be Black. But his oldest sister was Indian to the time she died. She would walk around with two braids in the back and just all kind of Indian regalia. She had moccasins and smoked a pipe and all of this kind of stuff. And I loved it. And her name was Noon. | 7:18 |
| Kate Ellis | Noon? | 8:05 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Noon. But look, she had her brother and her brother's name was Morning. And I got document right here to show you that I'm telling you— | 8:05 |
| Kate Ellis | This is your father's brothers? | 8:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 8:24 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 8:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And he had one brother got eyes bluer than the sky, was named Western, just W-E-S-T-E-R-N, like as opposed to Eastern. | 8:24 |
| Kate Ellis | Mm-hmm. | 8:38 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | But we just about lost that. We lost our Indian heritage altogether. | 8:45 |
| Kate Ellis | How? How did that happen? | 8:52 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | People not wanting— I mean, my dad is the last of his generation. And my kids don't want to listen about their heritage. | 8:54 |
| Kate Ellis | They don't? | 9:03 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Uh-huh, have no interest whatsoever. | 9:09 |
| Kate Ellis | Why is that? | 9:10 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I don't know, you tell me. I don't know, I don't know. I always wanted to know about— | 9:11 |
| Kate Ellis | So his mother is full-blooded Indian. | 9:17 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 9:20 |
| Kate Ellis | And his father is— | 9:20 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | He's a Mulatto. | 9:20 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, right. | 9:20 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 9:20 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, let's see. Now I'm thinking about— | 9:28 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Let me get some light on. | 9:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, some— | 9:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oops. Oh. | 9:34 |
| Kate Ellis | I got you. | 9:34 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | All right. Hold tight. | 9:34 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 9:34 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, yeah. | 9:34 |
| Kate Ellis | Mr. Clement Knatt— | 9:45 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah? | 9:46 |
| Kate Ellis | Now he's got it— Obviously, this would be his— He's your cousin, | 9:46 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Right, yeah, my first cousin. | 9:51 |
| Kate Ellis | So your father's brother? | 9:53 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 9:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Right. Okay. There's the Indian coming down from him? | 9:55 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | You're good. You pick up. Yeah, you're good. | 9:56 |
| Kate Ellis | No, actually, I think I'm slow in that regard. | 9:56 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No. Yeah. | 9:56 |
| Kate Ellis | But his face is really striking, in that respect. He said when he talked to you— | 10:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Like an Indian? | 10:06 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 10:06 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. You see how his hair is long? | 10:10 |
| Kate Ellis | Mm-hmm. Yeah, like that. | 10:10 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 10:10 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 10:10 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Mm-hmm. That's why, it's not Black. | 10:24 |
| Kate Ellis | Huh. But this is interesting— | 10:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | He told you about his sister? | 10:24 |
| Kate Ellis | Who Mr. Clement Knatt? | 10:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 10:24 |
| Kate Ellis | We haven't gotten to his family history yet. | 10:28 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, no? Ask him about his sister. | 10:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, what do you know about his sister? | 10:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, he had a sister and then he had a niece who died last year. She was an opera singer. | 10:33 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh. | 10:40 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | She used to sing, well, all over the world and she was good. He'll tell you though. | 10:42 |
| Kate Ellis | His sister Ada? | 10:52 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 10:52 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. He did. He showed me pictures of her. | 10:52 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. It's Ada's daughter. | 10:53 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 10:53 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | She had a bad heart. But God, oh, was spellbinding and everything. She was real down to earth. And she just died. | 10:58 |
| Kate Ellis | Wow. | 11:10 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And it happens that way sometimes. She was a beautiful person. I wish you had got a chance to talk with her. She was a lot more cosmopolitan than we are. | 11:17 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, yeah? | 11:26 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | We just hicks. | 11:28 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, no. Well, but as far as your father's brothers and sisters are concerned, you said some chose to be Black and some chose to be Indian as far as how they identified? | 11:34 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And some chose to be White. And when— | 11:42 |
| Kate Ellis | Of your father's brothers and sisters? | 11:45 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Mm-hmm. | 11:45 |
| Kate Ellis | Because what did some turn out as far as how they looked, I mean, they turned— | 11:47 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, my dad didn't tell you that? Some are Whiter than you are, with blue eyes, blonde hair. | 11:50 |
| Kate Ellis | Did they go— | 11:54 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Mm-hmm, yeah. They passed. | 11:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Where'd they go? | 11:54 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | New Orleans. New Orleans. I've traced them back. But right now they are afraid. It's like, I guess, if you're a homosexual, coming and out of the closet, you've got to be careful. I don't know. So I leave them alone and I don't push it. | 12:00 |
| Kate Ellis | Are they in touch with your father? | 12:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, not that I know of. | 12:27 |
| Kate Ellis | Did they cut ties with their family? I mean, did they— | 12:30 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. Oh, yeah. At the time, they cut ties from the family, | 12:31 |
| Kate Ellis | What happened? | 12:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Sometimes— Hmm? | 12:31 |
| Kate Ellis | Do you remember what happened or do you know? I mean, as far as what they said or what they did, or— | 12:39 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, I wasn't around at the time, I just— | 12:46 |
| Kate Ellis | It was before your time? | 12:48 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, yeah. But I know by their kids, and I've been in touch with the kids. So when that happens, you just leave him alone. | 12:49 |
| Kate Ellis | How does your father feel about it? | 12:55 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Pretty bad. Pretty bad. He dad's alone. That's fine here. Dad's alone, he's a very lonely person because all of his brothers and sisters are dead. And his mom and his dad are dead. And so I'm his pal. | 13:05 |
| Kate Ellis | You're his pal. | 13:22 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I'm his buddy. So I don't try to aggravate him with all that silliness. I deal with it, but I don't mess with him, I guess— | 13:23 |
| Kate Ellis | I'm sorry, say it again? | 13:37 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I said I don't try to aggravate him with all of that nonsense. | 13:40 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay as far as asking— | 13:43 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Well, no, we'll talk. But if I see that he's getting welled up with emotions— And I'm like that too. | 13:45 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 13:54 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I'll cut bait and do something else. Yeah, he's a beautiful person. I love him, man. He's cool. | 13:56 |
| Kate Ellis | But that must be a real source of pain in a family, one part of the family cuts itself off to— | 14:11 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I think that's usual with Black people, you see. That's usually with Black people. I mean, my mom's dad killed a guy, a White guy. My mom's dad was with Mulatto too. He lived in an adjacent parish, Saint Martin Parish. And he killed a man, hacked him with a meat cleaver, kill him, a White guy. And he took the guy's horse and rode about eight, nine miles, found refuge in the community. Black people were really together at that time. And started living with my mom's mother. | 14:18 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And that's one of the reasons why I'm here right now. No marriage because he was a murderer. But everybody tell me that he was a nice man. God, I mean, god-damn, what about Ted Bundy? How come— I don't know. And I hear a lot of this, that "Things are getting worse today." Oh, no, never, never. On this railroad track that you crossed coming here, you probably crossed it, people used to get just killed. They get hacked and then they get thrown on the track, then train would run over. | 15:05 |
| Kate Ellis | Geez. | 15:48 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Go to the courthouse if you think I'm lying and look at— | 15:52 |
| Kate Ellis | I don't think they lying. | 15:54 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, yeah. | 15:55 |
| Kate Ellis | And look at what though? | 15:56 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Look at the obituary index at the courthouse. | 15:58 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, God. It would be like, "Train death." Like everything would be like— | 16:06 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, there's a book, there's a big manual. And if you look at the people who died in a particular year or era, you look like from 1900s, you're going to see people used to get killed by train a lot more often than they do now. I mean, they'd run over a whole family center sometimes. | 16:06 |
| Kate Ellis | Jesus. | 16:26 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | But you know what that was about? | 16:28 |
| Kate Ellis | I can't believe your grandfather got away with killing a White man. I can't believe he wasn't caught and killed on a spot. I mean— | 16:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, yeah, probably right. I mean, I've wondered about that too. I wondered about that, too. But that was a lot of liaison between you see— But like I said, he was a Mulatto. I don't know, I've never done any kind of genealogical research to try to say what— I don't know. So maybe his dad was a White guy? I don't know. | 16:40 |
| Kate Ellis | Therefore he might have had protection even among Whites? | 17:06 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, yeah. | 17:07 |
| Kate Ellis | I see what you're saying. Well, I guess in the same way, I mean, it's different— But when we were talking earlier, I mean, as far as your grandfather being able to buy land. I mean that was unusual for a lot of— | 17:08 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's right. | 17:23 |
| Kate Ellis | — Black people to be able to buy land. | 17:25 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's right. | 17:25 |
| Kate Ellis | But it's because, it turns out, that his father was White. | 17:25 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, but kid— Yeah, but that's right for my grandfather. But my great-grandfather, how could he spend 61 years in the state of institutional slavery and then all of a sudden he's got money enough to buy a plantation? I mean, and the record speaks for himself. It's there. Then 10 years later, this man is old and he buys— But he gets married and then takes him a new wife, never been married before. I mean, he was married before, but she wasn't, takes him a new wife. He buys seven or eight more acres of land, and he keeps farming. The rascal's 98 years old when he dies? He's cool. | 17:31 |
| Kate Ellis | So do you— | 18:21 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | But there again, I want to point out to you, he was not my biological kin. He was a Knatt and we are Dugas. But we go as Knatts because— But yeah, I think he was phenomenal. Man, if I spent six years in slavery of that sort, I would never think about buying any land. I'd just want to be free and drink my ice water and iced tea and a beer and just chill out until I die. | 18:22 |
| Kate Ellis | Really? Well, I mean, the way you're saying, you're saying it would ruin you, as far as— | 18:58 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, yeah. I couldn't. Well, yeah, but I don't guess I've been conditioned to slavery. | 19:03 |
| Kate Ellis | No, I don't guess you have. | 19:09 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No. | 19:09 |
| Kate Ellis | As far as what you think about this man, you're amazed at his wherewithal to get out of that and turn around and become a landowner. | 19:15 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I have the same reverence for him that I have for George Wallace, and I've had a lot of criticism. | 19:24 |
| Kate Ellis | George Wallace? The George Wallace? | 19:33 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 19:34 |
| Kate Ellis | Mm-hmm. | 19:34 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I had a lot of criticism because of the way that I perceive George Wallace. I disagree with his political philosophy vehemently on most things. But I love the guy. I like Rush Limbaugh. You know Rush Limbaugh? | 19:36 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 19:52 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I love him. I remember when Rush Limbaugh first started in Kansas City, Missouri. I was living in Topeka. And he was very obnoxious. Because I'm really left wing all the way. I mean, you talk to me, you see that. But I think those guys are great because they got perseverance and stamina and they fight for what they believe in, and I respect that. You know? | 19:53 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 20:24 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Anyway. | 20:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, let's move onto something else I asked you about earlier. | 20:32 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | All right. | 20:40 |
| Kate Ellis | About what you know about The Shadows and about— I mean, that sort of— Remember I said that— | 20:40 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I'll be honest with you. You see, Hall was a— I don't know if you want to turn your machine off? Because I— | 20:56 |
| Kate Ellis | I'm happy to keep it. | 21:09 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Okay, okay. Hall was the hall kind of a freak, sexually. And he would have Clement just do— I mean, he'd bring in some notable celebrities and everything. I don't know if Clement told you this. And he would just supervise Clement having sexual relations with these women. And it messed Clement's mind up til today. | 21:11 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's why he doesn't like White people. I don't know if she picked that up, but he doesn't. It's because he had to do that. And that old man was just looking on. That was his job. He could afford to have that kind of thing done. But that, to me, is the epitome of racism. You know what I mean? And of Jim Crowism. On the one hand, you holding yourself out to be [indistinct 00:22:20]— He didn't— Maybe he didn't. | 21:42 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, I'm not sure why he would tell me something like that. | 22:23 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No. You would have to have a lead maybe in order for him to start talking to you. And he's kind of closed. | 22:29 |
| Kate Ellis | But the other thing is, just from our discussions that we've had, he and— He seems protective of Hall's reputation, of the man. I mean, he talks about him, as if he was a family member. | 22:37 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | That's the way he felt though. You see, he didn't look— But Hall was not a Cajun, he wasn't a racist. If you look at what he did, he was very exploitive, but he wasn't a racist. He was English and so he's from Britain. So Clement knows that. So I think what Clement will tell you is not that, "I hate White people. I hate Cajuns." You see? And I'm always telling him, "Oh, that's crazy." But you can't hate people because of the color of their skin. But anyway. | 22:59 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, how did you find out about these practices of Hall? | 23:50 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I remember, I remember, I remember. When I was a kid, I was about 11 years old and Hall used to have Clement drive him around in his limousine sometimes. And he used to have an old Ford. But it was new then, I mean. And I used to be observant, just like I learned anything else when I back you, I just looked and just picked up on what was going on. | 23:55 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And he was real open. I mean, I never have seen a person like that, since. I mean, maybe— I don't know. I've heard people talk about Howard Hunt or some major celebrity. But this guy was real open. But whenever he would get out in public. But then again, he could get into this little enclave and be protected from the world. Yeah. And I've seen a few more things. I was young at the time., some of the things I saw, I didn't know what I was looking at in the first place. | 24:28 |
| Kate Ellis | Mm-hmm. Because yeah— It's a curious— I mean, that relationship, it seems like they were really close. But I could see how getting Clement to do things like that would really— | 25:35 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Well, I think a lot of it has to do with your sexual orientation, I think. I don't know if Clement's sexual orientation is a result of what he had to, or felt he had to do, when he was working for Hall. But he's not straight, he's not straight at all. I don't know if you know that. But I don't know that makes a difference. But I mean, I'm telling you. | 25:48 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. How did you know that? | 26:27 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | About Clement? | 26:27 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 26:27 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | When I came back here from Topeka, I would sit down and we'd be drinking a beer or talking or whatever. He'd look in my crotch and, "Sure is raisin' hell what you got, Cousin," all this shit. I felt uncomfortable and everything like that. But I knew that's what the problem was. And that's what he was being used for, he was being exploited big time. And I knew that. My dad doesn't know it. Or if he knows it, that's a well-kept secret. He's not going to tell anybody else. But— | 26:37 |
| Kate Ellis | Mm-hmm. | 27:26 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | You think I'm crazy, don't you? | 27:34 |
| Kate Ellis | No, I don't, not at all. I mean, the thing is, what you say, I've heard. | 27:36 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, yeah? | 27:38 |
| Kate Ellis | I mean, but certainly not from him and I wouldn't expect him to tell me something like that. | 27:41 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, he wouldn't tell you. Uh-huh, he wouldn't tell you. | 27:51 |
| Kate Ellis | Again, I don't know whether he would tell anybody that or if he would. | 27:54 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, no, yeah. | 27:56 |
| Kate Ellis | If it would just depend if you're sitting around with a beer and you're a man. I don't know. But there's lot of mysteries of this area. Yeah. | 27:58 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Let me ask you something. May I? | 28:20 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 28:20 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Why are you interested in this area? I'm not trying to put you on the spot because I know this is your interview. But I perceive that it's winding down to a close and that's fine. | 28:26 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. Well— It's okay. | 28:41 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, unless you got some other stuff and then I'll ask you. | 28:44 |
| Kate Ellis | No, I've got more. I mean, there's more stuff I want to— | 28:46 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, okay. All right. | 28:50 |
| Kate Ellis | — ask you about. But I want to address your question. | 28:50 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | No, no, we can deal with that after you. | 28:54 |
| Kate Ellis | After? Okay. What I want to do— Let just collect my thoughts for a minute. | 28:59 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | — my ex-wife, whose picture— Well, yeah, but then, yeah, that rascal. She was born on a Saturday, on November the 18th, 1944. That's the same date that my parents got married. I didn't know that until five years after I was married. | 29:03 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | So when I went to the war and came back and got settled and everything and got my college credentials and all that junk, I started working and as an administrator for the Labor Department. I hired a secretary and I didn't know her, she was a Hispanic person. She worked with me for about nine, 10 years. She got married on October the 24th, I think it was 1981. Her aging parents celebrated their— I don't know what you call, to renew their vows. They got married in 1936 on Saturday, October 24th. | 29:28 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I saw that, I went, "Woo." But I thought it was interesting. But I don't know. I never didn't have anything to do what we talking about. But it's kind of interesting. | 30:15 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. Hey, tell me some more about this. I knew there's something I wanted to ask you about, about your mother's background, about her family. You sort of made reference to her— | 30:27 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Her mother was a Mandingo, a pure Mandingo from Africa. | 30:42 |
| Kate Ellis | Wow. | 30:50 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Very beautiful woman, no judgment. One of my cousin has a portrait of her. But she died, she died fairly young. You see, slavery, as you know, was outlawed in the United States, the importation of Africans in 1808. But it was just like drugs, it happened, it continued to happen. Yeah, she was Mandingo. So my mom's Mandingo and I don't know what else. But I know her dad was a Mulatto and I don't know. I know he was a Mulatto, but I don't know what he was mixed with or anything. I never researched that. | 30:52 |
| Kate Ellis | When you were coming up with— And you how many brothers, you had four or five brothers? | 31:49 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I had three brothers in three sisters. | 32:00 |
| Kate Ellis | So what school did you go to? | 32:03 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Jonas Henderson High School. | 32:03 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 32:06 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Then I went to— Well, when I was— Let me tell you about this. When I first went to school, I was four or five years old and went to school in Belle Place and for two and a half years. We had to pick up chips and coal to put in a pot-bellied stove. You couldn't learn anything. | 32:07 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | See, I'll be honest with you. I did not learn anything in grade school, whatsoever. I mean, of educational, intellectual value, nothing at all. You see? And I got my ass beat and I just didn't learn anything because I was trying to just stay warm and stuff like that. We had to pick up coal and we had outside toilets and all of that kind of stuff. Now I'm 48 years old. So I hated that. Then we had a new school in Loreauville. But you had the same thing in a different building. | 32:42 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And I don't know what it was like for my mom. Now sometimes I do substitute teaching. That's a beautiful school in Belle Place, Belle Place Middle school. And I'm dealing with these teenagers and I'm saying, "Goddamn. I mean, why can't—" It's unreal. The biggest problem in dealing with these rascals is to try to get them to calm down. I mean, a lot of them on Ritalin to try to calm down. But anyway, I mean. | 33:20 |
| Kate Ellis | Did your mother have an education? | 33:59 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Sixth grade education. | 34:01 |
| Kate Ellis | She did. | 34:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Mm-hmm. | 34:02 |
| Kate Ellis | So she can read? | 34:02 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, yeah. She reads and writes well. | 34:03 |
| Kate Ellis | So, but when you went to Jonas B. Henderson School, did you learn that? I mean, is that where you started learning? I mean, at what point did you start— | 34:08 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Starting learning the— Yeah, probably then. I don't know. That's a good question. I never thought about it. I don't know. I don't know. | 34:20 |
| Kate Ellis | I'm just saying, because you're saying that in your early years, you didn't. | 34:33 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I know that in the early years, I didn't learn anything. Well, but you see my sister, my oldest sister, taught me how to read before I went to school. | 34:35 |
| Kate Ellis | How did she know, from her schooling? | 34:46 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. Yeah. She's still in education. She's a superintendent of schools or whatever. I don't really know that. But anyway, she taught me. I knew how to read and write. I was frustrated with all that nonsense they were coming up, because I knew how to read and write back then. Te first few years of school was a waste. I hated to go to school. But you talk to my parents, they'll tell you right now, I love books. And that's why I'm glad you're here doing what you're doing, because I understand what you're doing. And I applauded your efforts. I think it's beautiful. I think it's nice. | 34:48 |
| Kate Ellis | So there's something you just said about this. Y'all would walk to school? | 35:26 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, mm-hmm. | 35:41 |
| Kate Ellis | At a certain point, did you get to take the bus? I mean, at a certain point did buses come along? | 35:43 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I mean, look, we used to live— I mean, look, my parents were really, in a way, they were promiscuous because they would allow us to— Here again, I think it had to do with the Indianness of my dad, would allow us to be with nature. At night we had camps built and we dug caves and we'd sleep outside. And I sleep outside now. I mean, you may think I'm crazy, but I sleep outside now because I like to sleep outside to look at the stars. But we used to do that when I was a kid. | 35:48 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And we used to do that with our White neighbors and there were no problems. But when it came time to go to school, they would catch one bus and we would have to board another. You were standing in the same place. And they would go to a school that was a block away, kiddo. Look, there were two churches. And I'm not kidding, you can check this out. There were two churches, Catholic churches, in the same block: one for White people, one for black people, you see? And I'm saying, "Damn." | 36:29 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | And my grandmother, my mom's mom is buried in the White cemetery. And I can't go over there because of what you doing and Jim Crowism. I just can't walk over there. Niggers ain't allowed to go over there. Hey, it's been a trip, man. | 37:07 |
| Kate Ellis | Yes. | 37:23 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | This has been a trip. | 37:27 |
| Kate Ellis | Wait, your mother's mother's was buried in the White church? | 37:31 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Oh, yeah. See, yeah, lot of my relatives. You see— | 37:36 |
| Kate Ellis | I thought your mother's mother was Mandingo? | 37:40 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | She was, she was. But what I'm trying to tell you is that early on, the people in Louisiana were not bigots and they were allow interracial marriages and all that kind of stuff. But after the KKK took a hold and intimidation struck, then they became that way. So historically, it's a relatively recent thing, in this area. But now if you go to North Louisiana, where my ex-wife is from, oh they have a different story, I mean, altogether. | 37:44 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. Huh. I heard out about North Louisiana through this. | 38:23 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 38:23 |
| Kate Ellis | I've never actually done in the South. Wow. Huh. Why in your family, in your father's, among his brothers and sisters, you said some would go for White, some would identify as Black, some as Native American. Do you know— As Indian, as you said. | 38:51 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, right. Well, I feel comfortable in Native American, more comfortable than Indian because that's kind of— | 39:07 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah, that's just what you relate to, when you're saying yourself? What do you say you feel more comfortable with? | 39:10 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | I understand if you say Native American, I use the myself. | 39:17 |
| Kate Ellis | Why didn't your parents want you to be to marry a Native American woman? | 39:23 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | My parents were— Not my dad, but so much mom, a real prejudiced person, very prejudiced, was exceptionally prejudice. So I mean, no-go, uh-huh. | 39:28 |
| Kate Ellis | So prejudiced against anybody who wasn't Black? | 39:44 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Who wasn't Black. But no, it's kind of funny. She was prejudiced against, still is, against people who were not— You can't be Black— I mean, see we use Black generically and she doesn't like people who are like this. | 39:47 |
| Kate Ellis | Dark? | 40:08 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah, dark. She like people who are like this, whatever color I am. That's all right. It's a trip. | 40:08 |
| Kate Ellis | I see. | 40:22 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. | 40:22 |
| Kate Ellis | So it's like a color thing? | 40:22 |
| Alvin Foreman Knatt | Yeah. It's a Colored thing. Yeah, I think. Yeah, you got it. That's right. That's right. | 40:24 |
| Kate Ellis | Mm-hmm. All right. Let ask you this stuff, dry questions. | 40:35 |
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