Behind the Veil Meeting, 1999 October 26

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Speaker 1	It was the schedule of try to get, uh, a time after one of the first couple weeks after Thanksgiving. Um, Keisha, if you could see if you could schedule, uh, with Mary and also let Ray know, um, see if we could get them to come over and just be involved in our conversation, just	0:01
Speaker 2	To	0:23
Speaker 1	Catch him up on where we're, and get that feedback and talk to them what's going on so that, um, we'll try to do that first week or two of Thanksgiving. Yeah. Okay. Something, you know, that's, so we still want to, we want to try to have a, a sampling of our best , you know, y'all, y'all decide on me. You want half dozen somewhere, you know, somewhere, somewhere, 7, 8, 9, 10 of these that we can get to them. She probably did right before.	0:25
Speaker 3	Can I ask a question? That's the end of this. No. Um, I'm assuming that you can, in terms it has to do with editing question on the text that you can delete, I think, or repetition of words. Maybe. Maybe. Or kind of these Yeah. Or mm-hmm. , I think or, you know, pretty like this or, you know, things that should be in there. Just delete them without any, um, uh, ellipsis. That's, that's what I'm, that I'm assuming that's what we're doing. Am I correct? Mm-hmm. that, that the ellipsis occurs only when there's something really? Yeah. They just stopped. Okay. I, I wasn't clear because I think that when these first edits that people should, you know, really try and get rid of that kind of stuff, you know, 'cause it's not, there's no point in keeping it mm-hmm. . Yeah. So, but that's why we just suggest that because it just slows everything down.	1:08
Speaker 2	Okay.	2:07
Speaker 1	Yeah. I think, yeah, I think in the first edits that it is, you know, to structuring the material, but also getting it as getting the language and that	2:08
Speaker 3	Yeah. Just to get polishes some of that, of that, because that, that will move editing process	2:16
Speaker 2	Bit.	2:23
Speaker 1	And I think we're, I think everybody's getting better in their first mm-hmm. run through in terms that, so I dunno who, who's where you wanna start with Robert, uh, min this, um, tell us a little bit about	2:26
Speaker 2	Yeah.	2:51
Speaker 4	This, this excerpt that I found, I had went across it a long time ago, and I remember us talking about a few weeks ago about just this culture of violence that Stein lived in and how he was repeatedly bombarded with violent images from his childhood. And later on in the, in the interview, which I haven't brought out yet either, which I plan to, is that he, he makes the statement that, you know, all of these incidents put together are what have made me the way I am, my political activism today is a direct response to the, the way I was treated as a child. And my, if you can sense a little anger in the way I present these, um, advances and the way I've lived my life and the way I deal with White people is because of these events. So I feel it's really important for me to keep bringing out some of these events because each time I come across something, they seem to be more and more, um, imp not impressive, or they really made an impression upon Stein George's personality. You can see it coming through by the language that he uses. Like in this excerpt, how he says on page	2:53
Speaker 4	Three, it says, um, in the second paragraph that this has hurt so much. I've never been able to talk about it that much. I've never told, but one or two persons in my whole life. It, you know, it just, it just tells you how, how deeply this these incidents have affected this man. And I thought this inter or this excerpt was just going to the biting truths section because it seemed just like our bitter truth. Excuse me. Um, simply because you're abiding , simply because it, um, seemed that stein, even though his family was not trying to overtly, um, you know, protests against the system, just their, just in their everyday lives, they, they kept being reminded of their place within their society. And it didn't seem like there was any way around this at all. And I think that's what really comes through to me in this episode.	4:17
Speaker 1	Do we have any pictures from him? Yes. Picture of him or any family pictures? Um, I, I don't remember this. We have something, but I think we have about 20 signs here, really? Because that would, uh, be nice to have a visual. I mean, this is such a powerful story. Mm-hmm. Um, there'd be some, some, um, picture of him or parts of his family or the farm if they kept, I don't know, whatever, just	5:32
Speaker 5	Should I at some point bring those in for all us to look at or should to Robert and see if anything resonates.	6:10
Speaker 1	But let's start with him. Let him look at it. I dunno. I just happened when I read that, I said more. I want, I just want to, it's a great image, but I also like to see if it, I like that. Um,	6:15
Speaker 4	I was wondering myself if anyone had any jobs about the	6:34
Speaker 1	Head of Yeah, that's what I was, I, I wondered. Uh, I mean, I guess one thing is that this, this kind of, there's a little bit of a contradiction here in the sense that, um, you know, beginning to talk about the strictly ordered social structure. I mean, there seems to me to be in this story, um, at least the, um, you know, some sense of, of something that's a lot that isn't as structured as that. I mean, here's the White guy giving him, doing something that's really, um, you know, really break, really breaks an important taboo. Mm-hmm. , uh, and, and just, you know, which gives some sense of the, of the flexibility in the way in which personal relationships, um, mediate to some extent the, the, uh, mediate Jim Crow and then this the kind of pettiness of their, of the children, which echoes one of the, one of, I think Nicole's the new one, um, that you've got here.	6:37
Speaker 6	What strikes me about this is this remark linking to f h A, this f h a agent. Mm-hmm. , especially since we've been continuing the problems with f H A and small farmers. We are the governor. Um, that is very striking to me. Does does he talk any more about that, the agent and the whole	7:53
Speaker 4	No, not really. Um, he just, he only brings up one more time that the man says that, you know, we're the government basically we can control what happens.	8:16
Speaker 1	Who is the government? Is	8:28
Speaker 6	It, is	8:29
Speaker 1	It Morgan or is it the F h A P?	8:29
Speaker 4	Uh, it's Morgan.	8:32
Speaker 1	It's him. He's talking about, he's the governor. He's the governor. We're I'm the White man. I'm in	8:34
Speaker 6	Charge of governor, so I'm	8:37
Speaker 1	Government. That's what I thought that was. So, but it's a nice old juxtaposition. We're the government and then you go down to a government man. Right. I know, but it's juxta with this f a man who is the governor, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's a great, it's a great little term.	8:38
Speaker 4	Well, I thought there that there was a clear idea of structure simply because they were breaking taboo. And it was, um, Stein's father was even reluctant to take the land because he knew he was gonna be breaking the social order. And I, he knew he didn't want to go against that. So I thought that reinforced to me the idea of a social structure that he was reluctant to break with.	9:03
Speaker 1	Well, it doesn't, I mean, it's, you know, I mean, he does get the, he does get up on the hill. He does get the, what happens to this land, you know, even after they burn the house down,	9:31
Speaker 4	He doesn't mention it. He doesn't go into that at all after that point. Huh?	9:40
Speaker 1	It almost be worth checking them. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Checking the tax rolls or something there would be used as to, so their dad was senile. You didn't know what he was	9:45
Speaker 4	Doing. Yeah. The sons, because they wanted the land themselves. They tried to paint the picture of their father against senile. So Uhhuh the decision though.	9:56
Speaker 1	Was there any indication in the interview why, why Morgan gave you Thelan?	10:07
Speaker 4	No, just that one comment at the beginning where he had been working for the man. I had	10:12
Speaker 3	Been, I felt that too, that he, where he'd done all the work	10:17
Speaker 4	On the farm. Right.	10:20
Speaker 1	And this was just one of his farms too. I mean, is obviously the White Morgan had, ANU had bought out a number of farms. Yeah.	10:22
Speaker 4	Because he was gonna move after this point to a town where he could be better taken care of, get medical attention.	10:28
Speaker 1	Oh, so maybe this was his farm. Mm-hmm.	10:35
Speaker 4	.	10:36
Speaker 1	Mm-hmm. . So you think it was actually the, the main, the old farm?	10:37
Speaker 4	I don't, I'm not sure because it was, he made it clear that his sons also had land within the vicinity. So it seemed like he had a great deal of land. I think this might have been his main farm. Yeah. By his best land.	10:41
Speaker 1	Right.	10:52
Speaker 4	But it seemed that the land was sold to times' father, simply because he had the, um, he had worked the land. And he goes into a whole list of reasons why his father was a good nigger in parentheses, because he never talked back. He had told a long story about how his father never talked back to this man, how he never rocked a boat. And that's how his father got through life. And this was kind of his reward at the end, getting this land. But this is what happened in the	10:54
Speaker 1	End. See, I think the, I think putting these two chapter members and this together are, you know, put 'em side by side. I don't care how we do it, but side by side because, you know, here's a guy who's got, got his land, got his, got stolen, you know, his crops stolen from him, but then he ends up getting, if not revenge, at least, you know, some satisfaction, satisfaction out of that. And then Stein father gets the land, you know, and loses his two, two baby children. Uh, in this, I mean, I don't,	11:25
Speaker 4	Yeah,	12:01
Speaker 1	It's kind of novelistic and	12:01
Speaker 4	Fog.	12:05
Speaker 6	Fog.	12:06
Speaker 1	Oh my God. But I somehow we ought, these two, these two things ought to go side by side with pictures and some kind of a, uh, I mean, I don't think you need much more about sharecropping and stuff that, a little introduction here about kind of land ownership and sharecropping and stuff that is, that would apply to both of these might be a way to work this. Uh,	12:08
Speaker 6	So Robbie, you were saying you see this as more of a separate excerpt and taken	12:43
Speaker 4	Away from the other excerpts or separated other. Um, for me it could serve two purposes. It could serve being separated. 'cause it's, I think it stands on its own like most of his, his excerpts. But like I was saying in the beginning, there's this long history of events in his life that tie together into his, into the fruition of his ideology later. And I think at one point, just maybe for myself, I'd like to bring all of that together and present that in another excerpt where he does at the end say, well, you have all of these examples and, um, this is how it affected my political activism and, you know, show some of this political activism. And maybe readers can relate back to that and see why you are so driven.	12:49
Speaker 1	Mm-hmm.	13:38
Speaker 7	, I wonder if we choose this to put this one just straight. Um, if you can do some of that labor in the header for the old, for the old ones, you know, introduce some of, some of this locks that's articulated here in that header to have it coupled with or augment the, the earlier articulations of locks, the rapes and all of that. So you can give a little bit of that historical background and one of the other headers, it's going to show the, the larger piece of Stein, um, give some more historical density. There's character there. And then we can still have this one appear late. And we can even have a footnote with Stein, or he'll be indexed, I'm sure to show people that they wanna read more about him. You know, see the section that we're doing on land ownership and chair property or labor mm-hmm. Is where it's gonna be.	13:38
Speaker 3	Could I also ask you, um, on making the selections one things we should, they also keeping notes on is the audio quality some of the things	14:29
Speaker 7	Excerpts	14:39
Speaker 3	Like is how is his audio? The audio?	14:40
Speaker 4	Oh, it's wonderful. Um, you, you can feel his emotion	14:42
Speaker 3	Uhhuh and, and sounds pretty good. That's good. Because this is what, when, when we start matching up the audio Right.	14:46
Speaker 7	Especially if there's more to him that we don't want to give, maybe in written form, there's another interesting moment in it. It could be an excerpt, be the audio.	14:55
Speaker 4	Yeah, that's true.	15:05
Speaker 5	To help us keep track of that. Some of the labels to stick on the outside of the	15:05
Speaker 3	That would be great. Yeah. Then we could, you know, have much faster access to the .	15:12
Speaker 1	Um, I, you know, I got the other thing that needs	15:25
Speaker 1	You can, I think fits in here is this whole, the way in which other Whites around reacted to this, you know, which, you know, on the one hand they didn't do anything, you know, but, but they brought some clothes and they came around and I mean, they, there was a pretense of them being concerned about it or, uh, and you know, maybe they felt ashamed of these sons who were burned this guy's house down. I, I don't know if it's a, it's a complicated story. I wonder if this, it would be interesting to get the, well,	15:30
Speaker 4	It sounded almost like an absolution of guilt. It sounds like they knew who had done it. Right. But they had to create some sort story to absolve him. Right. Yo, um, they deflected it back onto the, onto science family by saying that his sister Cause	16:09
Speaker 1	Well, we probably, the other thing here, probably don't need to let the reader get out of this what they want. Right. I think the, I think the story is interesting in the complex on the, do you have any idea what, when, what time period? It says where, uh, just stay there that this is when Black folks were going north and say, said White folks would come Lynch or something. .	16:32
Speaker 3	How old was his?	16:53
Speaker 1	When, when was he born?	16:54
Speaker 4	I forget when he was born, but I, I'll have to go back and check. It sounds like this story was before, slightly before the story where his sister gets raped. I know this takes place before his sister's raped. So he was only about six or seven. Seven.	16:56
Speaker 1	Yeah. It sounds like he's six, seven or so in here. I think I 90 say mm-hmm. .	17:15
Speaker 5	Yeah. Six, seven T you like the seven or eight year	17:19
Speaker 4	Old. Wow.	17:21
Speaker 1	He had a tremendous sense of responsibility on his part. I mean, somehow he failed these, these kids too.	17:27
Speaker 4	Mm-hmm. ,	17:36
Speaker 1	Did you take much out of this? I mean, uh, did you cut much out of the, in telling this story or was this, is this fairly raw, or	17:39
Speaker 4	This is pretty fairly raw. Mm-hmm. , I just typed out what I saw. Only thing I changed were I made some the paragraph breaks. That's all I really changed about it. And I took out already some of the,	17:48
Speaker 5	But additional petitions. And I think	18:03
Speaker 4	That's pretty much it. It's	18:07
Speaker 5	Pretty clean.	18:08
Speaker 1	Mm-hmm. . And this is one of those places where I actually liked, um, the, uh, interview. Mm-hmm. Um, intrusion. At least the first one. Sometimes	18:09
Speaker 5	It works and sometimes it doesn't. Yeah. It really is a matter of judgment.	18:20
Speaker 1	Well, it's just like, it is kind of Doris, you know, just kind of incredulous in a way. Mm-hmm. , why did he get into them? I mean, that's a great lead question. It's like about for, you know, for a whole lot of things. Well	18:24
Speaker 5	Also reinforces the fact that he hasn't told the story time. His wife was asking the basic point of that in question.	18:39
Speaker 1	Oh, that's right. That's his wife. Oh, mm-hmm. . Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Right. Forgot	18:46
Speaker 5	There is an Sally	18:57
Speaker 1	The	18:58
Speaker 5	Interview too.	18:59
Speaker 1	Oh yeah. Make sure I mention that in the, in the header. What	18:59
Speaker 4	That Doris said, his wife.	19:04
Speaker 5	That Doris's wife and	19:05
Speaker 1	. I just remembered that. So I saw it there, but yes. Well, well, yeah, I mean, here you need to say, I mean, Doris do his wife. I mean, you need to make sure so the reader doesn't, hasn't forgotten it. Even if it's in the head. So Nicole, what do you think about putting these two together on? I think that's	19:07
Speaker 5	Perfect. I think they would work well. I think it exactly work. Well, these are both Georgia, what county from um,	19:44
Speaker 4	I think it's Multry County. I'm not sure Multry is the town name or the county. You'd have to check on	19:59
Speaker 5	Wonder if they were with each other.	20:05
Speaker 1	Yeah, they, because they were both, yeah, they're both around Albany somewhere. So that they're in south southwest Georgia. Mm-hmm.	20:08
Speaker 2	.	20:18
Speaker 5	I just got a, um, dissertation from a guy who did a lot of interviewing in Georgia in, um, Forsyth Putnam area, um, near Aton. And, uh, all these things have curated, his whole focus is, um, basically Ken's oral history to show the complexity of race relations in this rural setting. In contrast to, um, our received understanding of segregation as it's primarily in shape through settings of cities. I just started reading it that, uh, both the piece excerpts fit right in with the story trying to tell.	20:27
Speaker 1	I wondered in the header, um, I stumbled a little bit by these, by having both of these references to being the first Black to get a college degree and the first Black woman for Congress. I just wonder whether both of those ought to be in there. Or you might just, you might just say it a different way or something.	21:18
Speaker 7	Yeah. The, okay, so we're on Chapman then. Um, yeah.	21:37
Speaker 5	And I went about the date, but	21:40
Speaker 7	I would	21:42
Speaker 5	Love to go.	21:43
Speaker 6	What was that? Yeah, I would,	21:45
Speaker 7	The dates, I need the dates. I can't figure out how I,	21:47
Speaker 5	How busy it was	21:51
Speaker 7	And to figure out, as for this running for congresses, I had said in my, uh, document note, um, don't know if that's a county statement or if it is for the entire state, but it could be something significant to try to trace. Um, right.	21:53
Speaker 6	That might be easier to trace in college because I think I would	22:10
Speaker 7	Be, it's, yeah. I don't know how I,	22:14
Speaker 6	I don't think that's right. I think, I'm sure that there are people in the earlier area era that went to college from the county, but he might not have,	22:16
Speaker 7	But he said graduate. See that's the thing. It might be a thing about having finished Uhhuh	22:26
Speaker 6	.	22:31
Speaker 7	So you're questioning whether he's the first to graduate from Morehouse or you're questioning the congressional run?	22:32
Speaker 6	Um, no, the Morehouse, I mean, actually, well, because I mean, schools in the system in that area, were sending out, you know, recruiters back in turn of century. And so not that many people in that, but you know, a handful. But I'm just thinking that that might, it might be easier to trace the congressional part than it would be right	22:37
Speaker 7	Then to, to check on that. I didn't, I wasn't suspicious of the, the Morehouse bank. I was, I was confused about the congressional part though. Um, well, I can easily not mention anything first.	23:00
Speaker 6	I wonder if the alumni association could,	23:13
Speaker 7	Could adjust that. Yeah. Okay. Morehouse.	23:16
Speaker 5	Well, wait. They be, they, we won't be checking if, if he was the first	23:19
Speaker 7	From his	23:24
Speaker 5	County to graduate from Morehouse. Morehouse. Not without, he's the first person from college county to graduate from college. Yes. To just graduate from Morehouse. From Morehouse. Yeah. That's what he said, right? Mm-hmm. . That's	23:25
Speaker 7	Possible. First calls be is county see different. Yeah.	23:37
Speaker 5	There's	23:41
Speaker 6	A difference. Yeah. And that's,	23:41
Speaker 7	That's what your question. And you don't agree with	23:44
Speaker 6	That? Yeah, I don't agree with that. I would've to see, I would to see much more evidence because, and just simply because of how, you know, how energetic people were in, in recruiting from rural counties out of the Atlanta system, even though not that many. Uh,	23:45
Speaker 7	See, and that, I don't know how you could confirm either, because there's movement people leave people going to schools outside of the state.	24:02
Speaker 1	I I don't, it's not important. I don't think either. I mean, it would be, I think it might, it'd be more important if it was the first Black to run for Congress.	24:09
Speaker 7	Yeah. That I'm interested in.	24:16
Speaker 1	I think the other is not, I don't think the other's important. 'cause I probably agree with highly unlikely.	24:18
Speaker 7	I think that's his perception of himself is important.	24:25
Speaker 1	Well, that could be, I think	24:28
Speaker 7	Maybe you should just say one of the first Blacks and leave it at that. Yeah. Put like this. He must be getting this degree sometime in the late forties. Right. That's a, a harsh statement. Um, all kinds, all kinds of levels about the people that live	24:31
Speaker 6	In that community. About 20 different levels. simultaneously. , you know,	24:47
Speaker 7	I mean talk all kinds of things from aspiration, mobility to economics. Exactly. In the question. All kinds of things. So, dangerous remarks. Well, yeah. Okay. That's, yeah. Thank you.	24:51
Speaker 1	Um,	25:09
Speaker 7	I'll just say he's in Morehouse graduate and I'll find out the date he finished. 'cause that gets complicated by the fact that he goes to war. And I don't know if he actually is able to, um,	25:11
Speaker 1	Graduate. See, I wouldn't be surprised if, if the progressive party in 1948 ran a Black candidate for Congress and they didn't work from South Carolina. So, um,	25:20
Speaker 6	That party doesn't count. That part doesn't count in American history. That's	25:32
Speaker 1	Right. As we see as you, um,	25:35
Speaker 7	Oh, I think I should be in there. But	25:40
Speaker 6	Henry Wallace went wrong.	25:42
Speaker 7	I mean, we'll have to that we had a party. Okay.	25:47
Speaker 6	It's, it's a, I mean, what I mean, think of a Jim Crow story. This is it right here.	25:56
Speaker 7	. Right. And it's a very long-winded story. I was trying to use this or, because there's a point, like 20 something pages in where he comes, as you can see, he'll start the story then he'll of course get sidetracked and then come back and bring you right back to, um, he's packing up his clothes and the pillowcases. Um, and he's getting ready to leave. And the experience of seeing this, uh, individual bypasses. So I was wondering how much maybe I could delete or whether or not I could leave it the way it was. I, I left this really long 'cause I like the historical density. I, I, I think we were talking about these questions about salary issues and, and I was interested in the way that he was very, uh, explicit about what people could get. Kids were getting not too much less than adults, but still less.	26:05
Speaker 7	Mm-hmm. Uh, I was interested in the kinds of tools that he's talking about. The fact that they're using sacs to collect the account. Mm-hmm. I think that his mother introduces him into this kind of labor. He also talks later on about, um, watching clothing, his mother and that whole experience. He's got real, he's got all kinds of interesting twists in his excerpts. So there'll be more coming the in the weeks ahead. But I did leave it long 'cause I thought he gave a lot of interesting detail that might be important to different researchers for different kinds of reasons.	26:55
Speaker 1	Yeah. And I, I think, I mean, I like doing something like this about with having a person who can tell a lot of different aspects of, of kind of the rural work experience rather than breaking it up and having a lot of, I mean, you get his fathers going out doing turpentine. Yeah. You know, he's doing a lot of different stuff. They, they	27:26
Speaker 7	Were	27:42
Speaker 1	Ling Yeah. You know, to try to make ends meet and, you know, partly 'cause he's getting screwed out what he is really doing this guy. But, um, you know, the stuff on school and it's just, it's it is, it is, it's rich in a lot of different ways. Um,	27:43
Speaker 7	And he's also good. Uh, I think one of the excerpts that I'm gonna bring in next week, I was interested in us need to talk about, um, territorial segregation and this, the trouble of the railroad junction and how that becomes the kind of racial, residential racial divide. And he does a really great job of articulating that kind of racial, you know, mapping the topography of this community. Mm-hmm. and I'll bring that in next week, where he discusses, you know, as opposed to everybody else who lived on asphalt, when we got on the other side of the tracks, all of a sudden you end up with dirt. And when industry was on this side of the track, on our side of the track, we had churches. I mean, he does a good compare and contrast in terms of what you could get access into in this communities that I think we haven't really gotten into in any of the excerpts that I've seen yet to talk about more of the topography of these rural	28:00
Speaker 5	Communities.	28:46
Speaker 1	Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. ,	28:48
Speaker 5	The only major comment I had about this one was I was wondering if the fact that you include after the, see the last paragraph when me and my father got back to the house, um, I was wondering if maybe page, what page you last seventh.	28:55
Speaker 7	Okay.	29:10
Speaker 5	Um, I was wondering if just that paragraph should be, um, inserted chronological folder back on page four. Someplace in here that was deliberating	29:12
Speaker 7	Hit that. Yeah. Because there's another moment that a sequence too.	29:27
Speaker 5	I can really figure out if it, if it work better to have a chronological or, or keep, you know, he is revisiting	29:34
Speaker 7	His time. See that's the thing I couldn't, I was having a hard time weighing it to, um,	29:44
Speaker 1	I think it helped. I mean I think it needs to go in chronological order 'cause it really helps you prepare for this, the last story. Mm-hmm. . Um, and that's kind of an unnecessary, you know, going back.	29:52
Speaker 2	Um,	30:07
Speaker 5	Yeah. The moment that I wondered if avoid flag, the fact that the story where he goes back to, um, was it Mr. Harper was name, um, the flag, the plaques later. I mean, I didn't have trouble understanding it, but where I started to really understand it was not until we talked about new 1963 Cadillac. It Wonderful. Yeah. It's great for locating the story. I just wondered if you wanted to do a little bit more find that or not.	30:13
Speaker 7	I'm losing you. Oh,	30:44
Speaker 5	Okay. In other words, whether you might wanna insert like a one sentence note hitter on page six, um, between before the paragraph begins with, but, and I don't know if you need to, it is just the thought that I had that I was halfway into the parent or third way into the paragraph before I realized that he was talking about something much later.	30:46
Speaker 7	Oh, I, I, you know, okay. I thought the cues were there because he talks about he's finished college and this guy is returning. So I thought that because I don't know how much later it really	31:05
Speaker 5	Is.	31:14
Speaker 7	Yeah. It's 1936. He has to wait a little bit longer. He goes to the school. Well, 1936, the mother dies. He works four years. It puts him in 1940. He goes to the school, he gets drafted in 43. I don't know how much. Yeah, that's	31:15
Speaker 5	True. How	31:29
Speaker 7	Much longer before he actually finished and comes back. So that's why I didn't, I didn't think they needed another queue. 'cause I thought, I thought he had actually articulated a cue by saying we finished, we came back. But yeah. I'll, I'll look into what I	31:29
Speaker 1	Yeah, you might want a break. I mean, I, or just edit that a little bit. I I think that maybe is a cumbersome. Anyway, um, so you had this, he had, he, he moves back to the same area, right? He does. So he finishes school, he moves back, this is 30 years later, I mean, almost 30 years later when he goes to visit this guy Uhhuh , because he got, his wife's got a 63 Cadillac 63 at least. So the man old Harper's old is an old man by that point.	31:42
Speaker 5	Yeah. His run in with Harper, where Harper takes his, takes the money. Is that	32:18
Speaker 7	It's a nine, that's a 19th. It's, I'm Kathleen zero on 19 four. Right?	32:23
Speaker 1	Yeah. Okay. So it's 20,	32:27
Speaker 5	It's not specifically 1936.	32:29
Speaker 1	No, no. Right.	32:31
Speaker 5	Yeah. I I mean I understood we were later and then I got 63 catalog. Oh wait, we're much later. But I think also I lost track of how, you know, how late it was before he did to get through college because of the war. So	32:36
Speaker 7	Yeah. See that's what I'm gonna have to, when we contact Marsh, or I will have to find out what his date of graduation is, that will help us to chunk this a little	32:47
Speaker 5	Better. Yeah.	32:55
Speaker 1	Who, who is Sam? I mean, I don't understand. This	32:59
Speaker 7	Is, that was confusing to me too because they have the same name Sam	33:02
Speaker 1	Logs last name.	33:05
Speaker 7	Yeah, exactly. And I wondered if somewhere related he's a, he's a friend of his, he's just a college class. That's what says Dennis. He's a dentist who lives in Arizona and	33:06
Speaker 5	He's, he's really g he's a friend	33:16
Speaker 7	G they both call each other g I guess it's like a pet name G. Yeah. People have all kinds of names.	33:19
Speaker 5	That was a recent name.	33:25
Speaker 7	They both,	33:27
Speaker 5	That's a nickname. I thought that was G But I didn't realize Thomas Harvey. I promise	33:28
Speaker 7	Both. I think they both called, I think it's a pet name that she would say, you know, Hey,	33:33
Speaker 5	You, hey,	33:37
Speaker 7	Late. What's up?	33:39
Speaker 5	Gee, .	33:43
Speaker 1	I mean, I'd break this paragraph up too to do it. I mean, I, I don't the the story about him going to the house, uh, I would break that up in a way so that it's almost like novelistic so that you move, I mean, yeah, these, there's a scene, you know, it's like this and then there this just, it's too, I don't know how almost 'cause it's di there's a lot of, it's almost dialogue here so that you need, you know, I came, came to the front door and looked up and said yes. I said then maybe,	33:49
Speaker 7	So you want the, the fiction on the, the breaks the way they do dialogue.	34:20
Speaker 1	Yeah. That's what	34:23
Speaker 7	I, that's I was thinking about, but I didn't	34:24
Speaker 1	Know. Yeah. Yeah. I would do space. We had, it doesn't, you know, it's up to you. It's up to us. So, but I, I just think this, it works 'cause it otherwise gets a little Yeah. Looked up and said yes. Yes, Mr. Harper. This is, but, and that's a little confusing. 'cause I, you know, I keep thinking he's introducing this other guy that was, this is, I know this is, but I understand. The first time I read I got home.	34:25
Speaker 7	Yeah. The other guy never gets out of the car. Right. Right. He assist stay with the gun.	34:49
Speaker 5	Yeah. I, I didn't,	34:52
Speaker 1	Which is,	34:53
Speaker 5	I didn't have a problem with that, but I	34:56
Speaker 1	Back,	35:04
Speaker 7	Yeah, I was thinking	35:05
Speaker 5	Question because it really	35:07
Speaker 7	To think about, but this is chance in bad shape. So it's just hard even to get this much. No,	35:09
Speaker 5	It's great. It's fantastic.	35:14
Speaker 1	Amazing. No, I don't want to come in. I appreciate it. I looked at, I, I just wanted to thank you for taking my farm. What, what is that? What, do you have any idea, have you listened to the tape there? What that is?	35:17
Speaker 7	Take Frank,	35:31
Speaker 1	Uh, at the end of that page, Mr. Harper. The reason I came out here, I just wanted to thank you for taking my farm parenthesis so hard.	35:32
Speaker 7	That was the, that was my even best hearing of it. To get it that much out of it. There was nothing else you could, you couldn't hear anything else.	35:42
Speaker 1	So what do you think? I mean, that's not what it says. What does you think it, what do you think you'd say? The reason I came out? I just wanted to thank you for taking	35:50
Speaker 7	That is what he said.	35:59
Speaker 3	Yeah. I think he grabbed his body so hard that he Yeah. You	36:00
Speaker 7	Worked me, you worked me so hard.	36:03
Speaker 5	Yeah.	36:06
Speaker 7	Um, amen. That is what, that is what it	36:06
Speaker 5	Sounds like. How many words do you think are missing in the purposes while	36:08
Speaker 7	You I have to listen again, my speculation. 'cause I mean I was cutting it close. I'm like the, the first transcriber. I mean, there was so much of this missing. It was, it was crazy. I don't think I'm really missing too much. There.	36:11
Speaker 5	Just a couple words.	36:23
Speaker 7	Yeah. And knowing the way he talks, I don't think that's far from how he	36:23
Speaker 5	Said it. Yeah. That, that doesn't bother me out. It seems.	36:27
Speaker 7	See it's characteristic of his, of his speaking manner.	36:31
Speaker 5	Would it be good just to thank him for taking my farm period ellipsis or something got so hard that, or I mean, I'm just wondering	36:34
Speaker 1	How that , but he didn't take his farm.	36:42
Speaker 5	Oh, you're right. He didn't take his land because	36:45
Speaker 1	No, he just didn't pay him to the right for Well,	36:47
Speaker 7	You could, you could speculate with the in a, in in a bracket. Right. A speculative insertion for me would be for taking my farm labor work crops. I mean, you know, so hard. I	36:50
Speaker 5	Don't know. How about the reason I'm out here. I just wanted to say thank you because if you had to taken all my hat, I probably would've stay out here. In other words, cutting of the substantial chunk. I mean half a sense there just to, just to avoid the mm-hmm. . I don't know. It might be too much, but thank you. Because if you hadn't taken Right.	37:02
Speaker 6	I'd like to take an opportunity to actually, to try to listen to this and see if we can	37:23
Speaker 7	Yeah, I'll try. But I, I, I for each line that's missing a thing. I listen to it about five times.	37:27
Speaker 6	I know.	37:34
Speaker 7	And it's rough. But yeah. We have some better, I don't know if we have better,	37:35
Speaker 3	We're using	37:39
Speaker 6	Yeah. Maybe we can have, well we have those data machines now. I just don't	37:40
Speaker 7	Yeah. Something else to enhance the	37:43
Speaker 6	Sound. The D machines we had the center that we were.	37:45
Speaker 3	Yeah. Alana has the D machines up in the office and Invis, there are five or six of them. Jewelry, you know, they, they're back from the field. So Uhhuh	37:48
Speaker 7	Because if we have so many to enhance	37:58
Speaker 6	To digitally to remaster, we might be able to pick that up. Mm-hmm.	38:00
Speaker 3	And in fact, she might even be able to put it on that radio, um, editing unit and pick up some more sound if you, you could ask her. She could help do that. But I do think that Jennifer, your suggestion would,	38:04
Speaker 5	Would work. It works. Yeah.	38:17
Speaker 6	I think, I just think there might be something in there. I mean, I actually like that phrase, taking my farm something in. There's so hard. Yeah, me too. Um, uh, I, I think there's something in there. I think it, he does have a distinctive way of, of saying or saying these	38:19
Speaker 5	You	38:35
Speaker 6	Or relating	38:36
Speaker 7	His stories. I know. I'm scared that he would never just stop with, thank you	38:36
Speaker 5	. . There's gotta be something. He's long-winded. Expletives to . What about the one I said better brief? Can't hear,	38:39
Speaker 3	Have no idea	39:02
Speaker 7	How.	39:02
Speaker 5	It'd be great to know	39:03
Speaker 6	That's what the,	39:05
Speaker 5	That needs to be. That needs to be. But	39:06
Speaker 7	I wonder if one of us should learn how to, you know, become more comfortable, better	39:12
Speaker 5	Equipment so that we don't have to keep	39:16
Speaker 7	Cutting. I'll definitely, because I dunno if I'm just introduce myself to her. I'll ask her for help with that.	39:17
Speaker 6	I live, yeah. The library took one of that was	39:23
Speaker 5	A strange thing. I to the library	39:26
Speaker 6	Took one of her interviews and had a tremendous amount of	39:28
Speaker 7	To me. But that's exactly,	39:30
Speaker 5	And they	39:31
Speaker 6	Remastered it ly and they	39:32
Speaker 5	Usually exhibit	39:35
Speaker 7	Was a	39:36
Speaker 5	Big moment.	39:36
Speaker 7	I was like, it was amazing. I'm assuming something with massive columns and	39:37
Speaker 5	I won't you to come visit.	39:44
Speaker 6	No, I don't think that's, I don't think that's gonna really pan	39:47
Speaker 5	Out. Oh, I do.	39:50
Speaker 6	Really? Arty was saying that he just didn't seem	39:51
Speaker 5	Who	39:54
Speaker 6	Arty.	39:55
Speaker 7	Why did do, why did he	39:56
Speaker 5	Sign him?	39:57
Speaker 6	Well, he just didn't, he said he just didn't seem	39:57
Speaker 7	Oh, I think it would happen. That's why we have the money Uhhuh	40:00
Speaker 3	It would happen just somewhere else. But I'll, I though it tied into all this network radio document to do the conference and everything. I can't see what	40:03
Speaker 5	Mm-hmm.	40:16
Speaker 3	The schedule would change much.	40:17
Speaker 5	Okay.	40:23
Speaker 7	Um, for the Marie, um, listen to the suggestions. I think last week there was a kind of a call for a little bit more on her. It's also construct a little bit more back than the header that could suggest the ways in, um, I was reading it. You also understood these excerpts to, to be speaking to her later political activism and the ways in which, um, the interracial, interracial racism she experienced growing up affected the kinds of political activism that she was engaged in. Um, and the ways in which she later interacts with people. I did include as new this time, this, um,	40:29
Speaker 7	I felt like I wasn't talking at all about the kinds of little factors and she, so I wasn't sure if I should introduce something small and discreet. So I wanted to talk about the fact that she, I think it's a page down, um, word. I'm not right. The fact that she's, um, definitely affected the, the local political life. She was interested in helping people who, who were willing to participate in the political processing in her community, um, acquire political positions. So I tried to address that on page 13 briefly. And then maybe she's also involved with just one of Jesse Jackson's numerous presidential campaigns. Um, but there's a lot in there. She's a person who's, um, deeply involved in police activity and tends people, one the sheriff comes to when someone is getting arrested and they want her to identify their credibility. Did this person do it or not? Which is always curious to me because it doesn't seem to matter whether or not she witnessed the event. They just want to know whether she should, could vouch for the character. If Ms. Port could vouch for a person's character. They were released right there. Yeah.	41:16
Speaker 6	This is how the Jim Crow justice system worked. I mean, she's, she's exceptional in the same way that, um, Dr. Patton in Birmingham is accepted as a person who can vouch for Black voter registrants. Uh, but up to this point, yeah. I mean this is how, this is how it works. Can you, do you have somebody vouch for you? ,	42:25
Speaker 7	Right?	42:47
Speaker 4	Does she mark a point in her life when she changes her, her self perception of herself?	42:48
Speaker 7	12.	42:55
Speaker 4	12?	42:56
Speaker 7	And she doesn't identify necessarily why 12, but she says, I remember there's one sense of the person, the interview wraps her. So when you feel like, you know, no one outright ever says, well, you clearly hated yourself. Right,	42:56
Speaker 4	Right.	43:10
Speaker 7	the interview, the past interview was very, uh, craft or sophisticated in her asking that something to the effect, well, when did you feel, um, 'cause she must've made a remark that she became more involved in the community and being interested in Black rights or something. And person said, well, when did your attitude kind of change? Or when did you feel whatever? And she says, 12. And then she goes off into something else. 'cause I wanted to know why that becomes a benchmark, um, moment for her. And I think that might've been the moment when she segues into the story about Aunt Jane. Mm. Because Aunt Jane represents a different kind of anecdote. The other ones are always about self abnegation. And this is a moment where she feels redeemed in Blackness. Right. So	43:10
Speaker 4	Yeah, I just felt, I just, something about her is just lacking to me for the fact that you see later on that she is so involved politically, but you don't see really the beginning of that. What's the genesis of that?	43:53
Speaker 7	She doesn't, it's a such a short, unfortunately it's a short interview. I wish it was she somebody wish they had stayed me for like a week. Because there's a, and I also get the sense part of what happens too, she gets interrupt a lot by other people in the household coming in. Like, you have to catch yourself because you think she's talking to the interview and you realize as you're reading, she must be talking to her daughter who's talking her ice cream. But the way she's speaking, you think she's, you know, making a comment on something else. So she gets interrupted and loses critical trains of thought and interviewer doesn't, you know, also gets lost too. Doesn't make a note to carry her back to the earlier training. So there are things that definitely get lost. Um, and it is unfortunate 'cause she doesn't really talk about it.	44:08
Speaker 7	You know, she'll talk about her, um, activity with the polls as if it was just happenstance. I had been walking, there's some guidance, some papers. And so I took one, I read it. I said, okay, you have any more? And I just stood there and started distributing her. Yeah. And that's exactly how she describes getting involved with things In terms of the Polio Foundation. With the Polio Foundation. It was like she was getting to these seem like Black a steady campaigns. Because part of what she would do is try to make advertisements, pictures of Black children these illnesses, unlike traditional kinds of representations of the disease. She planned some big batch show. I mean, she was always trying to some her other cultivate a kind of Black aesthetic in her political activism. Mm-hmm. . But a lot of it unfortunately is left.	44:50
Speaker 6	How long is this? No, I'm, I'm just looking, am I missing something here? Oh, out of the Marie for, yeah.	45:37
Speaker 7	What do you have? Um, it is seven. I'm running on a bus.	45:44

Speaker 1	Yeah, there're five excerpts. 1, 2, 4. Four.	0:01
Speaker 2	Should be four. I think that's right.	0:10
Speaker 1	Mine is You talked XRP five, but	0:14
Speaker 2	I didn't put a No.	0:16
Speaker 1	Okay. Well, well, I think we've got it. I just chance read this one today. I dunno. You see what got off there? Wait, there was a, it looks like we have a copy of what we emailed then. Yeah, you, 'cause right here her files, water account except four. Yeah. We have	0:21
Speaker 2	Four.	0:46
Speaker 1	Lemme see what happens to what. Yeah. Yeah. We, what we have is different from what, from what you've got. There's a lot more. Oh yeah. This	0:47
Speaker 2	Is not at all right.	0:58
Speaker 1	It looks not like what I reading last	1:00
Speaker 2	Week. It's last week's. This is not the new one.	1:02
Speaker 1	Roberton. Yeah. Quickly.	1:06
Speaker 2	This is not at all the	1:08
Speaker 1	New one. Okay. I'll just, I Go ahead.	1:09
Speaker 2	I'll,	1:13
Speaker 1	Yeah, that's fine. That explains a lot because it's, yeah, I was sitting here. I'm trying to figure out, I actually read this one pretty careful.	1:15
Speaker 2	No, it's different.	1:26
Speaker 1	She's changed.	1:27
Speaker 2	I was trying to take everyone's advice. Well, I have, all right. I'll summarize. Yeah. I extended a, a very lengthy header because we wanted to collapse instead of having so many excerpts from last time collapse into a longer life cycle trajectory. So what I try to do is capture the kind of politicalism, just in per sentences saying stuff like, she did this, she did that. She did this in the header as a kind of segue into talking about the things that she'll read about in terms of her issues with the beauty this and stuff like that. So I did that with the header. Um,	1:29
Speaker 2	Then I introduced, because we hadn't really talked about the political activism, and I know there was an interest in hearing a little bit more in regards to her. I, I brought in an excerpt that talks about how she was interested in helping local people, um, get elected. Then I shifted that to talk about how she was involved with Jesse Jackson's presidential campaign is very limited. That's only like another two paragraphs that I added on to with her and adjusted a little bit of the intellectual notes. And I kind of liked an intact. The biggest change is gonna be the headers and seeing if now is one big story, if it reads fluidly. Um,	2:01
Speaker 1	Okay. Good. Okay.	2:39
Speaker 2	And the only other thing that I started to think about, and I put this in the document notes, so you'll see this when you get the, the new copy this afternoon. So I was interested in, um, I know Paul has talked a lot about looking at advertisements and I have a, you know, some, some in my files home too. We started talking about why is it that, uh, African Americans might internalize some of this aesthetic. And I thought it might be interesting to represent some of these representations alongside these excerpts, but only showing some of the stuff from the 1920s. I have stuff from 1917, you know, different kinds of beauty pride. I know you were talking about the one that shows it's a transition into a different class, strata among other things. Um, but I've got, you know, the transformation of face images and all kinds of things.	2:45
Speaker 2	And then I also wanted to press it into some contemporary, uh, representations of Katie and Ebony and Essence. And I have some stuff in the 1970s. And see if we can have those parallel moments to show this is a, a continuum. It didn't end in 1930 something. Mm-hmm. . Um, and she's not living necessarily in some kind of vacuum or somehow, um, less mentally integral than others. This is, um, a significant and important story. Feels very, just tell me that. Right. I mean, of course Clinique and all of them sell all kinds of, uh, cosmetic stuff. It's still operating the same. They just use a different name. They call 'em blemish or whatever, removers, but they have some of the same compounds and same effects.	3:26
Speaker 3	I wonder if, uh, I think it would be interesting for when we got this kind, this group of stuff together for, um, we're gonna look at and send to Bill and Ray to have some of that, to, to start putting together a few of the accompanying things that would go with some of these interviews already. So we, 'cause I think we're, you know, we're already starting to talk about a much, uh, uh, more sophisticated book. And we have much more might be, but, but I think a more, I think visually sophisticated book than, than most books like this and, and what we had been initially conceiving mean. We're taking, we're taking what documentation, uh, you know, a little step farther from just a few photographs and a few posters or something that, you know, was things that we would use to describe earlier. But I think those would be, that's per to start putting some of that popular stuff, popular culture and consumer culture in here side by side with these interviews. So I wonder if we could, right. I have, you know, when we did interview, when we did these excerpts, we did, um,	4:07
Speaker 2	I have them 'cause I was collecting them this past, well, I had some that I've collected over the years, but I collected more this weekend because I was thinking about it as I was working on this over weekend. So I went to the microfilm and I got more, and I think some contemporary stuff that I was gonna start. I just didn't know how.	5:08
Speaker 3	Yeah. But I just think it'd be nice to go ahead and start putting 'em in, start putting 'em in, you know, as we, just so we could have a discussion about that.	5:23
Speaker 2	Well, I can circulate 'em next week and bring her back in once you see them again. And I also included in the new version, I list of some subjective readings. 'cause I think there was a question last week about what other kinds of texts. I didn't include a psychology, sociology stuff, but I can also include that some other texts are selected or additional reading stuff on these kinds of issues.	5:30
Speaker 4	Good. Okay.	5:55
Speaker 1	Why she be pretty quick . Um,	6:03
Speaker 5	Now which one did you heritage? Is that	6:07
Speaker 4	No	6:09
Speaker 5	Education. Oh, you . Oh, okay.	6:10
Speaker 1	Okay. Um, we saw this several weeks ago and, um, up a little bit more and I just didn't know. I mean, the, the one paragraph away that seemed fine to me, but I didn't know if, actually know, looking at, I said, he said, I said, he said it looks a little silly. Yeah. So	6:12
Speaker 4	Think	6:36
Speaker 1	I'll just see now. Go ahead and write ahead. Or looking for his version. And the excursion too. Yeah. I thought it worked as one paragraph. And I remember I was, I think I was the one who had the most trouble with this the first time. Not quite understanding who was talking to whom. And now as I read it, I don't even remember why I had that trouble. So, um, clearly .	6:36
Speaker 2	Well, if you were to leave in this kind of frame, if you chose to, I would describe a	7:04
Speaker 1	Couple of said	7:12
Speaker 2	Or introduce the name	7:13
Speaker 1	Instead or something. Just take out, he said, I said you just have it run	7:14
Speaker 2	Conversation.	7:19
Speaker 1	Yeah. But it's not necessary. So since you using that in a way that becomes rhythmic, and when this is short paragraph, it really seems to work. We just leave it right card. I love,	7:20
Speaker 2	I wonder if it's a gender thing too. The men always seem to use it. It's like a benchmark related date thing. The practical, you, you always trace the date as a packer, get the caddy in there.	7:45
Speaker 4	Mm-hmm. a great story. Good. I think that's right.	7:54
Speaker 5	Paragraph. Okay. What I did was went back and looked, we've been, every week we've been talking about needing to go back at some point to, um, the working manuscript. So I went back and wrestled with a few different excerpts. Um, some of which need much more work than others. Um,	8:17
Speaker 5	This actually this last excerpt, hopefully everyone got both sets. I, I worked on a few from the, the opening, the bitter truth section and then worked on a few from the heritage section. And the Dora Anderson one is one I'm really gonna have to, to work on, um, and figure out, because during the course of this interview, she actually has a copy of Harlan's book on er t Washington. And she's referring to it. Um, and I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to set that up for the reader. Uh, 'cause it is really, and there's some fascinating exchanges the way she points to the book and talks about how this book doesn't really have the whole story. Can	8:44
Speaker 2	We say in the, in the head, in this exer she's taking me shoe with, and you know, just describe mm-hmm. , what she's doing physically in the header.	9:30
Speaker 5	Yeah. Mm-hmm. Up that way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. . That's, that's definitely one possibility.	9:43
Speaker 6	And this one also, I was wondering, this is gonna be a simple question, what the significance of the shingle was with that?	9:53
Speaker 5	Oh, that was just an old phrase. You had your shingle, your lawyer. Lawyer people said Yeah, pretty.	10:02
Speaker 1	They had like a, a sign that they hung from a post. Mm-hmm. . So they call it a shake.	10:08
Speaker 5	Maybe should have a little asterisk there to,	10:16
Speaker 1	And I boss, I, I wonder if, when in the text, even though you have in the head note about Thomas Harris, that when, uh, they told him not to, you know, the hymn, there should be something brackets after Sunday, you know, her grandfather Thomas Harris, that he should be in the text as well, because otherwise it's that him hears firsts and there's no seat in her text.	10:22
Speaker 5	Right.	10:46
Speaker 1	The head cut should serve that way.	10:46
Speaker 5	Yeah, that's a good point. I'm gonna have to, I mean, this is one, I I actually have not went back and, and listened to this one yet. So I think there's some, I was looking at a transcript. I think there's some holes there that, you know, listening. I might be able to, uh, to bring in some more, some more things here. But otherwise, I guess we want to go back to the, um, to bitter truths. I just picked that actually, the, I think the opening, um, first three excerpts out of that. And they tend to be brief, uh, more brief than most of the excerpts we've been working on this year. Um, but I tend, I mean, I think in their brevity there's a certain kind of power. 'cause I think that the stories that are being told are very,	10:51
Speaker 4	Uh,	11:47
Speaker 5	Very important. I think you'll need, I mean, I think before we use these, you're gonna have to go back	11:47
Speaker 4	And	12:15
Speaker 5	Still look at the larger interview mm-hmm. . Uh, because when we were doing this there, you know, we really were looking for these kind of real short excerpts that we were very specifics. Mm-hmm. make many still stand up. Yeah. I went back and actually the, the one interview that I did augment was the Milton Quila. Um, because I seem to remember that he had, he talks about medical conditions in Tarro, this excerpt, uh, on page starting on page six throughout the interview. But then at different points they'll go back and start telling a different story altogether. Um, so that was one that actually I did, uh, go through pretty closely. Um, he just passed away a couple years ago too, but when I interviewed him 94, he still had his practice. Hmm. You're still seeing people Really? Yeah. Was years old. Yeah. . He, do you know what happened	12:17
Speaker 1	Was up to date on the last seven procedures, somebody could listen to this. Do you know what happened to the grandfather after he knee shot by White doctor? Don't treat him.	13:32
Speaker 5	Yeah. He ended up practicing. I mean, he ended up practicing as a lawyer, but it was not anywhere near Tuskegee. You're talking about Thomas Harris?	13:44
Speaker 1	Yes. Miss Dora Anderson case.	13:53
Speaker 5	Okay. Yeah. Okay. Alright. I was, I'm sorry. I was, that's where, yeah, he ends up practicing, but, um, he goes to Mexico. He, I can't remember where he ends up.	13:55
Speaker 1	There has to be a lot. I think the editing has to be done on this as though, I mean, I think it go back and really,	14:06
Speaker 5	Yeah. It's, I I have to listen to it real, you know, culturally and,	14:13
Speaker 1	But it seems to me that it's an awful lot here.	14:16
Speaker 5	Yeah, it is. It's a real rich story.	14:19
Speaker 1	Have you had a chance or to look at how this was used in, in Harlem's book?	14:25
Speaker 5	Yeah, I mean, it's really, I mean, he frames it around this whole issue of who was Booker t Washington, uh, what did, you know, what is our surface analysis of him? We tended to look at him as an accommodationist. But in this particular story, he talks about how he helped Thomas Harris behind the, so to speak. In other words, he didn't, on the surface, he didn't let him into the campus. He kept him away and made sure everyone knew that he had kept him off the campus. Um, but when Harlan looked closer to the documents, he found evidence that he had helped him.	14:30
Speaker 1	I think that's an important note to have. I think that would be really interesting. Again, another layer of complexity. Mm-hmm. .	15:10
Speaker 5	But that, I mean, that was Harlow. I mean, that was his, it was a real driving motive for even having a story in the book. Um, other than the fact that it was heavily commented on, uh, in Black communities. And a lot of, you know, obvious outrage about the story. How could this happen to one of our lawyers in Tuskegee? Um, you know, something that's not supposed to happen in Tuskegee. Right. So,	15:20
Speaker 1	Yeah, I think the tension between how Harlan wants to use the story and serve his goal versus how the family member wants the story to observing and the ways in which family memory changes the plot or Yeah. Details least, um, is something bring out.	15:48
Speaker 5	I think it's fascinating. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I'm still, I'm thinking about this,	16:07
Speaker 1	This may be a stupid question, but I'm kind of trying to read while we're here. Um, who is Mr. Alexander?	16:10
Speaker 5	Okay. Where, what page is that?	16:18
Speaker 1	16.	16:21
Speaker 5	Okay.	16:22
Speaker 1	I he's the,	16:23
Speaker 5	Okay. Yeah. Yes.	16:29
Speaker 1	Um,	16:32
Speaker 5	Okay.	16:54
Speaker 1	So y'all have Mr. Lexander for protection and next he's trying to get through out in his water.	16:57
Speaker 5	Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think that, I think it's, that's why he goes there. But like I said, I'm gonna have to listen to this whole, the whole interview again. 'cause it's not, this is exactly how this, this, this transcript goes from one, um, actually I think this is a continuous transcript. So he or she might be talk, she might talk about this in earlier point in the interview. You know, maybe offering some more clarification.	17:06
Speaker 1	Yeah. It's interesting too if he goes, if, if he is in fact going to Alexander for protection, it's interesting that he go to the j o rather than the sheriff. Mm-hmm. , but makes a lot of sense given about sheriff's Southern town. That seems he's probably about the same. Yeah. But it's suggests that Mr. Alexander some roles in the Black community as too, which was unusual, maybe interesting. Help them figure out some of the mm-hmm. , what was going on in the White community. I wonder if just case would be one of growth, the people we'd have much dealing with, you know, thinking about an individual's use of public officials. Right.	17:32
Speaker 5	The	18:14
Speaker 1	J o P is prompted	18:14
Speaker 5	In that. Yes, definitely. And you know, it's one of the first positions that the, uh, the redeemers go after justice. Oh yeah. Because Justice of the Peace does everything from, um, negotiate labor, disagreements, farm contract disputes, boundary disputes, I mean, kind of like the first line, uh, legal official. So yeah, definitely.	18:15
Speaker 1	Of course, it could also be geography. I mean, otherwise why are they coming by Alexander's house if they're going to his house.	18:45
Speaker 5	Right. It	18:54
Speaker 1	Could be the lay of land in terms of where he lives versus their land. Mm-hmm. , maybe their family history. Go back a long way and have some links	18:55
Speaker 3	You might check. I would check Jill too. That's	19:05
Speaker 1	Why they live near each other.	19:09
Speaker 3	Might just email him or something and see what he knows about this story. And if there are other, you know, if there are other versions or this in the community too.	19:10
Speaker 5	Okay.	19:19
Speaker 3	Just 'cause if you're gonna, we're going to get engaged in a, using ours, our story to contrast with something, an interpretation of a historians done. The more basis we can check on this and Jeff would've, you know, he would know this and	19:20
Speaker 5	Right.	19:36
Speaker 3	You know, he would know the folklore and stuff in a way that Lewis wouldn't even maybe.	19:37
Speaker 5	Yeah, that's probably true.	19:44
Speaker 1	I wonder if this, this excerpt about, um, including the interview questions on page 17. Um, and I guess if I sort of in water or, so I felt little distracted when I was reading. I, I read this so quickly, I didn't have time to really make it through, but I didn't feel bit distracted in the middle of this. Did you felt distracted? Distracted from the baby? Yeah, I did. I think it's because it's in early.	19:48
Speaker 5	It's not, it's	20:17
Speaker 1	Just raising	20:18
Speaker 5	Room. It is. However, I believe that the, the question about she, one of the reasons that she actually even tells this story is to talk about, um, why her, uh, I mean it's, it's, it's kind of, I mean, we've been talking about why people tell narratives to explain, you know, why they become activists or later events. But in part she tells the story to explain how, or I guess what kind of model for race relations her parents brought her up with. Types of cautionary tells that they, they told her about. Um, so I think, you know, you know, with your family talk about racial issues, um, and the whole thing about how the story survives in her family.	20:19
Speaker 1	But it may be that that's like, is Nicole sort of has said on some occasions that's where really where there could be an interpolation with a little transitional phrase where you sort of ate it more. You bring up something, the question doesn't care in all that, meaning the question just sets it up. But more interpretive no. Really helps you reader or contextualize the way that you're, you're doing because why we as won't bring all to beer on that unless you help begin to do that. Right. Yeah. Maybe, uh, in the header you could say something like, you know, when asked whether or not a family talked about racial issues, Dora Anderson, yes. And yes, it was one because of grandpa and then launch into this story, grandpa might be a way to set that up. Whose life represented something in the family that had to do with such and such or something, you know, say, why try to give a little pointer? Because people won't necessarily make the connections or young students won't certain	21:13
Speaker 5	Right.	22:13
Speaker 1	.	22:13
Speaker 3	Right. I	22:15
Speaker 1	Well, it's a rich piece, sub section.	22:21
Speaker 3	Yeah. I do think Paul, with, as you go back through these, uh, these excerpts from these small ones that we did, and I think I'd start by looking at the overall interview again. Or even just, or either if it's if's easy to do, pull, pull all excerpts and look at the note cards that were done on the particular interview since this all came out of note cards. These, these excerpts all came from note cards. Yeah. Um, just 'cause I hate for us to spend too much time on, on these, on the individual excerpts until you've, until as we are, as we've been moving in this direction of kind of, of these longer things, which doesn't mean we, in the end, we won't use this or something like this, but put it in the con context of the whole interview right at the beginning before we spend a lot of time working it. Mm-hmm. , I mean, otherwise you use this as a guide to go back and rethink. I mean, obviously these are good stories and the issue is do do you want, do we want to just stay with this kind of a brief excerpt on this? Or, or is there, are the retellings of it in the later in the interview, or are there things that would go together that would make it better? Mm-hmm. . Um, does that make you understand? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.	22:24
Speaker 1	Were you, um, I was, yeah, because away	23:38
Speaker 3	I just think that that, you know, what we were looking for last year is, is, uh, is, it's not, it's not entirely different, but it's, I think it's different enough or we're looking, you know, we have a better sensitivity	23:49
Speaker 1	Now. Well, you know, that, uh, working manuscript was a sampling.	24:01
Speaker 3	Yeah.	24:07
Speaker 1	Right. Rather than it was like almost doing a proposal sort of saying, well look, we do have content in these oral histories to publisher, prospective publisher and everyone else participating in the project who has have, you know, all the people who haven't Right. Heard the interviews. So if you think of it as a sampling rather than any written need Right. An editing,	24:07
Speaker 3	That's what I mean, makes more sense. Right. And just treat it as that. Use it as a, as a guide back into the interview, into the interviews. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. In some cases they're gonna, you know, I think that there's some of these excerpts have have integrity so that we'll want to use it. Yeah. But my guess is that from what we're seeing in the way we're dealing with others, we're gonna want to put 'em together. But most of	24:33
Speaker 1	Together, some, some are much stronger than	24:57
Speaker 3	Others. Right. Right. Those are the ones that	24:59
Speaker 1	Are gonna lead you back. Right. That's	25:00
Speaker 3	Probably	25:02
Speaker 1	Not, may not, I mean, if you check it out, you may not lead anywhere.	25:03
Speaker 3	Right.	25:06
Speaker 5	Well, I think that's, that it also brings up this issue about wanting to avoid using only the very few, uh, longer excerpts for each section. I think that we are going to have to use Yeah. Much, you know, some of these shorter	25:10
Speaker 3	Yeah.	25:28
Speaker 5	Excerpts	25:29
Speaker 3	Just make, let's just, we just want to know that these are the right ones again, because I think ours is right. This was more a sampling than a judicious selection. Well, Well's a mix.	25:30
Speaker 5	Yeah. Yeah. It is. Because I mean, the other thing you have to remember is that these are the excerpts that really, uh, caught eye of Joe and the people of New Press too. Right. Mean there's something compelling about	25:41
Speaker 3	Them. Right. Yeah. That Yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying let's learn from, you know,	25:52
Speaker 1	I think that 80% of these samples may end up being short excerpts, but you may also listened to some other stuff along the way. Maybe picked up another short excerpt somewhere else, and then maybe 10% would end up being longer. Yeah. It's just that you have to sort of start contextualizing this material living kind of narrative you're creating now, which is different. I think these just can't stay the way they are. That rethink	25:57
Speaker 3	I think. I think, yeah. I think, you know, technically it's just that don't, don't start editing these until you go back and look at the larger con the the in interview that they came from.	26:30
Speaker 5	Right.	26:41
Speaker 3	And then, then make your mind up then, you know, you may still, this may be all there is. That's good.	26:43
Speaker 1	It's just saying, and it may not be, it's like looking at a manuscript. You can look at one manuscript, 15 minutes, another manuscript get, spend 10 hours on it. Right. And you have to make those judgements, you know? But I would think like this one we're looking at as deserves more attention. Definitely. Maybe it's three hours. I dunno, , but on the other hand, I think it's great.	26:47
Speaker 3	Yeah. Yeah.	27:12
Speaker 1	That's, it's important.	27:13
Speaker 3	Yeah. Certainly this, all these stuff points us to some, to	27:16
Speaker 1	Guide into the function.	27:22
Speaker 3	Um, are we gonna try to, um, this is looking ahead a little bit. Are we gonna try to meet that Tuesday before Thanksgiving with people? They've been taken off, right? Which day? That's gonna be, which day are Thursday?	27:30
Speaker 1	I would hope that I be in Philadelphia. I don't know,	27:48
Speaker 3	I hadn't gotten my plane to be yet, but I, if I, I was thinking about being on Wednesday.	27:53
Speaker 1	You better buy Chicken .	28:00
Speaker 3	This place would be, might be looking at a bus that	28:05
Speaker 1	Christmas now. Yeah. Well, I, I know I, I'm here. I so much work to do on that. I, Wednesday, Tuesday.	28:14
Speaker 3	Well, let's try to, if we, if we're here, let's try to, I'm just playing, but you may if you want to go ahead, go ahead. Philadelphia's a long way away,	28:25
Speaker 1	. I do try. I think we're gonna drop,	28:33
Speaker 3	Um,	28:41
Speaker 1	. Well, if that the driver, I don't want you guys to leave before I leave.	28:41
Speaker 3	Yeah, no, no. Let's go, let's go get, I	28:45
Speaker 1	Need to go. Okay. We ended on time.	28:47
Speaker 3	Yeah. It was great.	28:53

Item Info

Title:

Behind the Veil Meeting, 1999 October 26

Date:

October 26, 1999

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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RL00170-CS-0097
0900221af9643fb7b00911c8f1fd62fc
behindtheveil
03487e8a-541f-4177-b529-6109751a9d41
ark:/87924/r4gb28r56
03487e8a-541f-4177-b529-6109751a9d41

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Behind the Veil Meeting, 1999 October 26

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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