Paul Ortiz: Your printing office had business with Reverend Fisher? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes. We did work for him and we enjoyed a long relationship with him. 

Paul Ortiz: And did White Rock, you mentioned earlier, the churches had some involvement in rallies. Was White Rock one of those churches that was involved in voting? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh yes. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Would you ever have meetings or voter education? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: At this church? Yes. Oh yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Mr. White. How did World War II affect the Black community in Durham? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well now, take my business, for example, we had four partners and two of them were drafted. So it left us personally short of management and sort of like a standstill in growth and this kind of thing because two of your owners and all went into the Army in the service. And so consequently, it slowed down our progress because our resources, our physical help and all was not there. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: But I guess we looked at it like everybody else, it's a sacrifice you have to make during that time. But I was a civilian necessity or some classification because the draft board didn't want to have to close our businesses because, first of all, what are these fellows who were in the service going to do for work when they come back? So I think there was some allowances made for, you couldn't just go into a business and draft all the men and all like that. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: So the classification that I had permitted me to stay and help take care of business so that we could provide a job for people that were in that service. That was half of our management going in the service. So for us, personally, that's about the size of it. 

Paul Ortiz: Did it seem like the war had an impact on race relations or politics? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, yeah, I would think so. There seems to have been some discussions about the African American citizens being allowed to do certain things. And I know that newspapers was pushing for those soldiers to be in actual combat. There was some discussion about the full participation. So there was some discussion about that kind of situation. And you're going have rights issues, fight to protect your rights like everybody else. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Now, so far as the economy and all, I think at Camp Butner that was located near Oxford, they had lots of soldiers, Black soldiers out there. And then they had one or two racial incidents actually happened between the soldiers. They had one in the ABC store I know. I was trying to think of the exact detail of it, but I know a lot of the soldiers came in town to protect their rights. But in general it worked out fairly well I think. 

Paul Ortiz: But they came in town. Were there Black soldiers coming in town to protect their rights? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: It seemed like to me they had the gathering, I was trying to think of that exact incident. I'm going to tell you, it slips me. But anyway, they were near riots one time. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Was it something that one of the store owners said? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: How's that? 

Paul Ortiz: Was it involved in the store? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: In a whiskey store? Did you hear somebody talk? I'm trying to recall the exact incident, I can't. But some kind of discrimination between the White and the Black soldiers. But it wasn't no physical thing that happened. I think it was trying to arrest a soldier and somebody thought it was about being mistreated, 

Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, one of the things I learned from Mr. Bryant was the different parts of the Black community in Durham. If you had to say, what were some of the different areas in terms of maybe class divisions and different neighborhoods in the Black community, what were some of the major? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, I think that everybody, most people are trying to do the best that they can. And if somebody can build a better house or a bigger house, they might try to do that. And then certain groups of people try to live together. And so you do have kind of divisions that, I don't know. I would suspect that there's more togetherness than separations, and even in the White community that's more prevalent than it is in the Black community. People making a certain amount of money living together, then when they get more money, they move again. Then if they get more money, they move again. And that's a whole lot more movement in the White community than you have in the Black community. If you got 5 million, you live somewhere and if you get 10, you go move with the people with the 10 million. 

Paul Ortiz: Did you have a lot of contact with Black people who were working, say in the tobacco industry during the forties? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: The various groups in particular, the Durham Committee on Affairs of Black People and the Durham Committee on Negro Affairs. Those people who worked in the factories and people who worked at North Carolina Mutual were working together for the same thing. In fact, some of the people in the factories was putting their money on the table just like everybody else. There was a good deal of working together in the churches and in the committees and groups and civic groups and helping to get out the vote and voting. They're working for the common good of all. 

Paul Ortiz: And Mr. White, with the Hayti Business District being such a thriving district in terms of Black business, were you involved in trying to keep the district together during the urban renewal project and the eventual—? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah, we were put in a position where that freeway was a big issue. Where you going to put the freeway? They discussed all kinds of ways. One suggestion was to build it above the railroad and they finally decided to put it where it is now. And what they did, they combined a urban renewal program along with the freeway because the urban renewal program, when they judged the area substandard and declared it substandard and with that permission you would have an area which was I think the area that they used. But the major portion of the freeway was area three, which gave them the privilege of demolishing the entire area, whatever area that they layed out in the urban renewal. And that gave them the possibility of constructing the freeway through that area. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Now without that, they could stop it or change it or something like that. Now that was for the reason of constructing the freeway. And so there were certain kinds of things that needed to be done. Now one of the things that I did personally, I went down to Atlanta and got the government to agree, along with the people who represent the redevelopment commission, got them to agree to build some temporary buildings, which they said they had not done before. They hadn't built it. And this was a section that they called Tin City, that they built temporary steel buildings to house some people down on Pettigrew Street so that they could put the freeway through there now. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: So it changed the whole area around to a point where they scattered the homes, churches and businesses. And that actually destroyed the Hayti area from what it was in the beginning. Because Hayti, it was a compact area that at one time had movie theaters, a hotel, three drug stores, and businesses, insurance, fire insurance, others, Southern Fidelity Insurance. North Carolina Mutual had a district office down there. We had an office on Pettigrew Street, which had a fire in 1985, but it was finally leveled a couple of months ago. Finally, even less time than that. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: So what it did was scattered some of the businesses and destroyed some of the others and churches too. Now, one building, the Logan Building was brick, concrete and steel, which they leveled. I never have understood. It was not substandard, but I guess the law says that you could take anything in that substandard area out. The buildings that were left, and still there within short distance from that building, were a lot less standard than the Logan Building, which as I said earlier, was brick, concrete and steel. And one of the things is that our building was in there and I noticed they're putting a print shop in that same place that we were. 

Paul Ortiz: Who had a print shop? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: The Ferguson Printing Company. It's going be in the same general area that we were. And we were never given the option to stay there. We were always looking for other places to move. And one of the reasons why we didn't move, we were not shown something equal to or better than what we had. But we sold our business to the employees in 1983, and they had a fire in 1985, and they didn't have the muscle to recover from that fire. 

Paul Ortiz: So Service Printing Company stayed on Pettigrew? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: On Pettigrew Street. 

Paul Ortiz: You didn't move? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: We didn't move. We were looking for some place to move, but nobody ever suggested that we could fix up what we had. 

Paul Ortiz: But you were supposed to be given an offer for basically assistance to move to a place that was either equal? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Equal to or better than what we had. And we were never shown anything like that. 

Paul Ortiz: But would they show you things or show you areas? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: We talked with them about it. What actually happened was we sold the business to the redevelopment commission. So they had the authority with that sale to do what they wanted to do. And as it turned out, when we were looking at it and we were discussing it, only one part of Pettigrew Street was actually taken out for the freeway itself. And that part, if you go down there now where you see Fayetteville Street coming over the freeway, you'll see where it was Scarborough's Funeral Home, State's Auto Service and two blocks of businesses that were taken out to facilitate the freeway. The rest of it, where we were on down to the Regal Theater and Garrett's Drugstore and all and everything, they were actually removed. But the land is still in place where it was without any interference with the freeway. So it's kind of a mixture that of what happened in that area. 

Paul Ortiz: What was the the address of the Service Printing? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: 504 East Pettigew Street 

Paul Ortiz: And Mr. White, what were some of the things that you did politically to try to make urban renewal or to make this freeway situation, to make it not so onerous on Black businesses? What was there? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, as I said earlier, one of the things we did was that area near the corner of Fayetteville Street and Pettigrew with the State's Auto Service and things, we actually had them, the urban renewal, the redevelopment commission to construct some temporary metal buildings that housed some of those people. Actually Scarborough was down there, the Carolina Times. The Carolina Times, and the E.N Toole Electric Company and Elvira's Restaurant and Turner's—and Turner's Beauty Supply. Those businesses were moved down on Fayetteville Street, the Old Fayetteville Street and another street that ran off of Fayetteville Street. So they built some temporary buildings to house those places. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And at the same time we were looking around to see where we could locate, but then we got in the process of selling the business to the workers. We sold the Service Printing Company to the workers and they took over for a couple of years. Then at that time, in 1985, they had a fire down there. So that for all purposes was the end of our participation there. 

Paul Ortiz: Do you think that the redevelopment commission dealt fairly with Black businesses? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, the process makes it not fair. In other words, I think we got something like $32,000 for our building. Now what you really need when you're building a highway, either freeway or something like that, and you need property to build that, what you really need, as I look back on it now, is replacement. In other words, if you going drive a freeway right through my building, the only fair thing to do is to be able to replace that building. In other words, I ought to be able to move my equipment and everything into a building. If they do it like that, you will be able to withstand the damage. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Now the Highway Department has a replacement cause in their building, but the urban renewal has what they call fair market value and that won't replace it. And that's where the handicap comes. You're building a road and you put the burden on the property owner to replace his property rather than just you give me that $32,000. That probably wouldn't, maybe it would've bought the land or whatever, but it wouldn't put the building back and everything like that. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: So now when they worked in the Crest Street area, they operated under the replacement value with the extension of the freeway through the Crest Street area. So that's the difference. That that's what makes, in my eyesight, unfair. It's too much of a handicap to overcome. 

Paul Ortiz: And those businesses in the Crest Street, they were also Black owned? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: The homes mostly were Black and some of them were rental and all that. But they took a lesson from what happened to Hayti and they came out better than the people in the Hayti. They didn't have as many business. Of course, they had some institutions, churches and the like. So that's what made a big difference. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, were you also involved in other politics? I think Mr. Bryant mentioned the Black Solidarity Committee. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah, that was a group fighting for rights and trying to protect the interests of the community. That group, they were organized for fair treatment and I think they conducted some boycotts and this type of thing. 

Paul Ortiz: Who would've been the main people involved in the Black Solidarity Committee? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, it was a whole community organization that I don't have a list of people before me that I could call, but it was a community-wide organization. 

Paul Ortiz: Well, I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but a couple more questions. Did you keep contact with your family during your years here in Durham? Did you yourself marry? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh yeah. I married 1942. I married a childhood sweetheart, Jean Elizabeth Briscoe, and we have two children, Nathaniel B. White Junior, and Joseph Marvin White. My wife is deceased. 

Paul Ortiz: And so your children went to school here? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: They went to elementary school here and my oldest son went to Duke University. He was one of the first five students at Duke. My youngest son, Joseph Marvin White went to Florida A&M University in Tallahassee, Florida. He studied printing by the way. 

Paul Ortiz: Did you originally intend for your oldest son to be one of the first African American students at Duke? Was that part of a coordinated effort? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: That's coincidental. I mean what happened was we had talked about him going to Hampton University and his guidance counselor approached him about the possibility of going to Duke University. We talked about it and together we decided that that was an opportunity that he probably should take advantage of. It was different from what he had planned and he mentioned that. But knowing him as a child and growing up and all, I felt that he had the kind of stability and maturity that, first of all, he had the training and the accomplishments that would enable him to go to Duke. And so together we made the decision for him to go. 

Paul Ortiz: Was that a difficult experience at first, kind of cracking that racial barrier there? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, I don't know whether we have actually evaluated to that extent. But Duke had made some preparations for that. And he went in a situation where there didn't seem to be a general organized resistance, like the student body and the people. And it was something that they had decided that they wanted to do so it wasn't any organized resistance. It was some, I think, opposition but it was not outright vocal and organized, let's stop this, and this kind of thing. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And he had very good training. He was qualified and had the stamina and the background to be able to resist any kind of feeling that might come up. And I think he was successful in it. There's one thing about a situation like that. It's more like the real world than some other places that you might go, and everything seems like it's all right, but it's not training you for what you going to meet when you get outside. It's a real struggle out there, and the sooner you learn that the better off you might be. Now, I don't know, I have to ask him, is that why he went. But in other words, every day he had what it's like to be an African American citizen in this country. So he doesn't have to learn that after he graduated. He learned it every day at Duke. 

Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, what were some of the main things that kept you going in your struggle all of the years, keeping the printing business going, and your family? What were some of the things that inspired you to give you strength? 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, I guess faith, religion, family. And really whatever opposition you might have, either artificial or real, a lot of what's happening it's a burden on the other people that you're facing. Sometimes it's difficult to understand, but I'm beginning to wonder within myself, how is it that we continue to have struggles? We have continued to have insurrections. We continue to have people out there killing each other. Sometimes these are people that grew up together and all. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I begin to wonder, how long are we going to be doing this? How can the people just go? We criticize people who do this on the street and on Saturday night somebody does it. But the next day we read that somebody shoots up and kills 40 people, 50 people, 100 people. I wondered for a long time, what was that they were doing over in England and the Irish. And it's a bigger problem than we think. And it's kind of puzzling. It's really disturbing. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I know we do that. Maybe up on Main Street this weekend, somebody'll get shot. But it is something deeper than we as human beings. It's something we haven't learned yet. And sometimes I reflect on that. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And now we're celebrating the 50 years ending of the conflict with Japan and how we ended that. It's something we need to look into. And I think that we as a group, the thing that I went through. You know Martin Luther King said that his mind and soul never sat on the back of the bus. Everything I had went on the back of the bus, mind, body, soul and everything. But at the same time, it did that, it did something for me. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: If I could do that and come out of it and not hate people because they're different from me, and maybe even love people that are different from me, maybe I have learned something that other guy didn't learn. 'Cause I see some violence in him. I see some things in him that I would never do. Kill people and eat them and all kinds of stuff. So maybe after all, maybe I came out on top and he hadn't caught up yet. And I'm concerned about it, but what can I do about it? But I think about it sometimes. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: So who's right and who's wrong? This world that we got, I can still smile and be happy and I'm trying every day to unlock the doors of how to keep doing that. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And maybe we, as human beings, maybe we still need to work on those kinds of things and make this a better world for all of us because we need to do that. My time is running out. But hopefully somehow or another, I just— 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Sometimes you think about the wars that we have been through. I've lived almost in four-fifths of this century. I think that it'd be a good idea if we could, we got a few more years left before we get to the 21st century, and we could concentrate on how we can make things better for all of us and make the 21st century better than the 20th century. Look at the wars you had. Two World Wars. 

Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Woo! (laughs) So maybe you all can work it out, maybe (laughs) you can study this thing. That's a good project to work on. Let's see if y'all got the answers.