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<v ->Okay, go on.</v>

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<v Interviewer>Okay. Good afternoon.</v>

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We are very grateful to you

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for participating in the witness to Guantanamo project.

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We invite you to speak of your experiences and involvement

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with your son and who was held in Guantanamo bay, Cuba.

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We are hoping to provide you

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with an opportunity to tell your story in your own words.

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<v Moderator>Oh, fuck!</v>

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<v Interviewer>We are creating an archive</v>

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of stories so that people in America

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and around the world will have a better understanding

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of what you and others have experienced.

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Future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo.

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And by telling your story you're contributing to history.

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We appreciate your courage

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and willingness to speak with us.

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And if there's any at any time

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if you'd like to hear, take a break, please let us know.

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And if there's anything you say you'd like to remove

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let us know and we can remove it as well.

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<v ->Okay.</v>

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<v Interviewer>And we'd like to begin</v>

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with some basic information, general information

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about your name and your, where live and your age

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and the year you were born.

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Maybe we could start with that.

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<v ->Okay. My name's Terry Hicks.</v>

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I was born 1945, which makes me 66.

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I'm now retired.

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I live in this suburb called Severna Park Benitez

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and it's not in 72 quad area and--

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<v Interviewer>And, you, your family, do you have,</v>

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can you tell us your family?

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<v ->My parents?</v>

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<v Interviewer>Are you married?</v>

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<v ->Yeah, yes. I'm married to Beverly.</v>

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We, honey, Beverly has her own side of the family

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and I have none with Beverly, but we treat them all as one.

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So David was from a previous marriage.

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And I have a daughter from a previous marriage again.

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So it's been a long haul.

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<v Interviewer>And where were you born?</v>

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<v ->I was born in a country town, probably 20 Ks north</v>

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of where I am at the moment place called Gola.

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I call it the gateway to the Barossa valley.

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<v Interviewer>And last question</v>

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I guess is what occupation did you have before you retired?

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<v ->Sorry.</v>

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<v Interviewer>What did you do before you retired?</v>

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<v ->I managed a printing shop.</v>

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I was on a contract with the government, which spies.

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I'll just clear that matter up.

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There was a department of defense.

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I don't mind saying that now.

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And with David's situation

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I was probably always a little bit worried at all

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and I was gonna last him the job

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but they were pretty good.

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<v Interviewer>You were still working there at the time.</v>

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<v ->I was working with parliament</v>

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of defense at the time of David's incarceration, yes.

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<v Interviewer>Well, maybe you could tell us a little bit</v>

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about how it was when you first heard

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about David's incarceration.

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<v ->Very strange set of events, it's a long time ago.</v>

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Now we've got to really think about it.

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The, I believe it was on a Tuesday night

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we had a knock on the door.

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It was the IGI and the strand

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and federal place to inform us that David had been arrested.

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He's being held by the Americans.

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He was okay.

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Then they produce what they call a right

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of search to go through the house.

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They took letters, bits

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and pieces that I could say was no relevance

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to David's case, but they took them anyway,

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took all the computers.

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I did ask with this right of search.

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If I refused, they said they were,

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they would strip the house right down to the foundations

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and we'd have to pay the price of getting it rebuilt.

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<v Interviewer>Do you know what the date was?</v>

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You said it was a Tuesday

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with the date that was not long ago.

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<v Interviewer>Could it be December of '01</v>

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or January '02 or?

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<v ->It would have been January.</v>

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<v Moderator>The 9th, December.</v>

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<v Interviewer>January 9th or December nine?</v>

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<v ->Yeah. That's it, December 9th.</v>

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If I remember the time was around about 8:30.

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<v Interviewer>8:30.</v>

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<v ->You had no idea that David was arrested before them?</v>

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<v ->Well, it did probably</v>

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I asked before that one of my mates had rang me

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and said, there's an Australian rested over

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arrested overseas by the Americans.

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And he seemed to think that the description fit a David.

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So we probably had an idea, but it was still,

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it's still a bit of a shock

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to the system when the dock suits

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as I call them front up at the door and start demanding

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and what they can do and what rights we haven't got.

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So we had no problems with them going through the place.

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You know, it was, they asked where David usually slept.

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So he sent him down to the bedroom

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which my granddaughter tagging over anyways

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and all the soft toys and that they didn't take them.

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<v Interviewer>Did they tell you</v>

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where David was being held?

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<v ->At that point, no.</v>

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They didn't really give us that much information.

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The just said he'd been arrested, being held

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by the Americans and they needed to search the house.

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<v Interviewer>Did they say he was connected</v>

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to the Taliban or locator?

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<v ->Not at that point in time now, not.</v>

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<v Interviewer>What Were you thinking yourself</v>

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at that point?

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<v ->Well, we're probably in a turmoil</v>

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at that point in time because we had no information.

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We didn't know what was happening as regards to David.

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And then once he'd been arrested,

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we didn't know, you know, the photos that wasn't probably

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till they following few days

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that things started to filter through

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mainly from the media, we had

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the media were here for the whole strike was shot down.

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<v Interviewer>What does that mean?</v>

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<v ->Well, they had the barricades at one end of the street</v>

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and also at the other end--

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<v Interviewer>And who put up the barricades.</v>

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<v ->They Australian police to make sure there was no,</v>

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I suppose no one to throw stones.

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I suppose that we're looking at.

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The media who camp out the front Stiver awake.

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<v Interviewer>Was it starting the next morning</v>

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when the media came?

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<v ->Yes, well, the, there's a strange one</v>

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because the federal place and NGO informed us

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that they would not be speaking to the media

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about this and near to five o'clock that next morning

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and the phones were ringing

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the doors were being knocked on.

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<v Interviewer>How did you handle that?</v>

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What did you do that?

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<v ->We were told by the, at that point in time</v>

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by ASO not to speak with the media until they consulted us.

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<v Interviewer>Did you speak to the media?</v>

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<v ->No, we abided by what the, 'cause I mean, pretty naive</v>

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never handled anything like that before I made life.

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So we did the right thing.

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It was probably really not the right thing to do.

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<v Interviewer>Why?</v>

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<v ->Because I find that fan within that week,</v>

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they absolutely demonized David, the media,

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the government was just as bad.

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They were the ones that were feeding the media

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with the information that we know nothing about.

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And he was a terrorist and he was the worst.

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And as Mr. Bush said, he was one of the worst 10 people

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in the world and all this sort of business, you know.

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And it was that song was very, very hard to take him

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by the end of the way he got had enough.

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And I spoke with the south strand place officer that was

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in charge of looking after us

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and our wellbeing as I call it, they spoke with ASO.

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ASO said, yes, we can go ahead.

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So I went out to media and said, oh, we'll be giving

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I'll be making a press statement in the next 15 minutes.

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But in, within that 15 minutes, I showered

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rang and said, no.

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So I said to the place officer, I think I now have to do it.

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I can't wait any longer.

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This is, you know, people on the street were getting a bit

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sick and tired of what was happening at that point

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because our bang stopped and asked who they were

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and around this sort of thing.

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So I gave a press conference.

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<v Interviewer>Before I asked you about that.</v>

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Did you go to work that week?

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<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v Interviewer>Did people at work ask you questions?</v>

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<v ->I had a meeting, my, the people I was contracted</v>

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with, actually sent the general manager out from England.

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I had a meeting with him.

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I thought that was the end of the job

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but he informed me if I needed any assistance

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I have people there that can assist the family.

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If we need to be flown anywhere,

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you just contact us and we'll get you there.

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<v Interviewer>Why did you think you would lose your job</v>

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because your son was arrested?

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<v ->Well, the job I was doing was with the department</v>

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of defense, whether they might've thought that I was brought

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up, could have been passing on information, which I wasn't.

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I mean, I think people realized

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that I was pretty trustworthy.

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I mean, I worked for the department of defense

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for 44 years, at that stage

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it was 39 years that I'd worked with them.

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So I found them very, very good.

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Now and security people were not too bad.

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They asked silly questions,

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don't mind asking questions about David.

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And I just said to him, well, it was, and I could ask him

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maybe you have people that could

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probably be asked David himself so.

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<v Interviewer>During that week,</v>

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had you heard anything more

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about David's where David was held

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and what was going on with that?

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<v ->We did get a heads up</v>

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that he was transferred from Afghanistan to the Pella Loo.

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And then from there to leave the town.

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<v Interviewer>With ships?</v>

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<v ->Yes, the American ships.</v>

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And then we found out

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down the track that apparently had been pretty

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hostile dealt with.

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<v Interviewer>When did you find that out much later?</v>

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<v ->That was later.</v>

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<v Interviewer>That early in those early days?</v>

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<v ->No.</v>

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<v Interviewer>Who told you he was transferred?</v>

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<v ->Not very, I think that come from one of the media</v>

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that he was being retained

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or detained on American warship.

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And then later on, he was

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then I'm not sure whether it was a Baton first.

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And then he was transferred through the, to the Pele Loo.

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It was either one way.

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I mean, time's gone by now in Minnesota, try and pick

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out which way it guys, but so we were really, really,

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we were only picking up information through the media.

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<v Interviewer>Just one question.</v>

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And my wife went to ask the question

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but were you able to sleep during that week?

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We, how were you handling it?

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<v ->A little bit it was pretty difficult.</v>

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Yeah, I think the worst part of the situation was

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that we had my wife contacting him

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to find out what was happening.

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So the head guys ran on ran around,

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during the day is okay, during the day there's people.

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There's you got your work.

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Yeah, and then I do a volunteer job

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with our local football side.

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That's two nights a week.

252
00:12:59.020 --> 00:13:04.020
So I used, myself I was able to direct my frustrations as by

253
00:13:07.750 --> 00:13:09.010
as adding delays fields.

254
00:13:09.010 --> 00:13:14.010
But once a quiet time came that's when the mine started say

255
00:13:14.660 --> 00:13:16.470
you think you're sleeping?

256
00:13:16.470 --> 00:13:18.549
When you got out in the morning, you still tired.

257
00:13:18.549 --> 00:13:20.573
And it wasn't good.

258
00:13:21.589 --> 00:13:24.688
<v Moderator>When was the last time they'd heard</v>

259
00:13:24.688 --> 00:13:27.749
from David before this came.

260
00:13:27.749 --> 00:13:31.467
And at that time, in that first, in those first few days

261
00:13:31.467 --> 00:13:32.413
did it occur to them

262
00:13:32.413 --> 00:13:37.220
that David could possibly be being mistreated?

263
00:13:37.220 --> 00:13:39.660
<v Interviewer>Okay, when did the last time you heard</v>

264
00:13:39.660 --> 00:13:42.245
from David before the,

265
00:13:42.245 --> 00:13:44.190
and what was the name of the organization?

266
00:13:44.190 --> 00:13:46.500
Can you tell us so people who watching this people

267
00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:49.488
might not watch this for 50 years to pass.

268
00:13:49.488 --> 00:13:52.360
You said the ASO, is that it?

269
00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:57.170
<v ->Is Australian security.</v>
<v Interviewer>Security</v>

270
00:14:00.464 --> 00:14:01.467
Organization or?

271
00:14:01.467 --> 00:14:04.340
<v ->Yes. Yeah, it's equivalent to your CIA.</v>

272
00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:05.490
<v Interviewer>CIA or?</v>

273
00:14:06.733 --> 00:14:09.710
<v ->Or your FDI or your high security.</v>

274
00:14:09.710 --> 00:14:11.420
We have what we call IFP

275
00:14:11.420 --> 00:14:13.940
which is Strike and Federal Police.

276
00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:16.170
And then above them, you have ICI.

277
00:14:16.170 --> 00:14:17.193
<v Interviewer>Okay.</v>

278
00:14:19.741 --> 00:14:20.745
<v ->So which is strata, insecurity,</v>

279
00:14:20.745 --> 00:14:21.578
whatever they call themselves.

280
00:14:21.578 --> 00:14:23.750
<v Interviewer>So before you, they notified you</v>

281
00:14:23.750 --> 00:14:25.904
when is the last time you heard from the David?

282
00:14:25.904 --> 00:14:26.960
<v ->The last time we heard from David,</v>

283
00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:29.591
he actually rang us on a set phone satellite phone.

284
00:14:29.591 --> 00:14:33.774
He was in some Creek bed, but it was

285
00:14:33.774 --> 00:14:37.327
a terrible conversation because it was breaking

286
00:14:37.327 --> 00:14:40.220
up that much.

287
00:14:40.220 --> 00:14:42.861
So we really didn't have the full gist

288
00:14:42.861 --> 00:14:44.302
of what was happening.

289
00:14:44.302 --> 00:14:47.880
I think he said, he mentioned something about going to

290
00:14:47.880 --> 00:14:52.667
Qubole the cause the Northern Alliance were advancing

291
00:14:52.667 --> 00:14:55.259
and all this sort of thing.

292
00:14:55.259 --> 00:15:00.259
So we really didn't get the full story and surprising

293
00:15:00.384 --> 00:15:02.725
you know, I still haven't because I haven't asked David

294
00:15:02.725 --> 00:15:06.523
and I think the problem is now that David's back attended

295
00:15:06.523 --> 00:15:11.510
you know, he's back here, then that was in the past

296
00:15:11.510 --> 00:15:14.410
and whatever I say, well, so it was, that was

297
00:15:14.410 --> 00:15:16.290
the last contact we had with David,

298
00:15:16.290 --> 00:15:19.850
was this satellite phone conversation, which wasn't--

299
00:15:19.850 --> 00:15:22.020
<v Interviewer>Do you know how many weeks</v>

300
00:15:22.020 --> 00:15:24.165
or months it was prior to?

301
00:15:24.165 --> 00:15:25.561
<v Interviewer>November 30th.</v>

302
00:15:25.561 --> 00:15:26.965
<v Moderator>November the 30th?</v>

303
00:15:26.965 --> 00:15:27.963
<v ->Yeah.</v>

304
00:15:27.963 --> 00:15:28.965
<v Moderator>That's fine.</v>

305
00:15:28.965 --> 00:15:29.963
<v Interviewer>It's fine.</v>

306
00:15:29.963 --> 00:15:30.965
<v Moderator>November the 3rd.</v>

307
00:15:30.965 --> 00:15:31.963
<v Interviewer>November the 3rd.</v>

308
00:15:31.963 --> 00:15:32.850
<v ->In November 3rd, yeah.</v>

309
00:15:32.850 --> 00:15:34.250
We ran about that time.

310
00:15:34.250 --> 00:15:39.250
So it was probably week, November.

311
00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:42.805
Yeah. What it was.

312
00:15:42.805 --> 00:15:44.077
So that was a good month after that

313
00:15:44.077 --> 00:15:46.090
before he was actually arrested.

314
00:15:46.090 --> 00:15:47.720
<v Interviewer>And when he was arrested,</v>

315
00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:49.940
did you have any suspicions

316
00:15:49.940 --> 00:15:51.365
especially when he's telling the boats

317
00:15:51.365 --> 00:15:53.043
and maybe he was being mistreated?

318
00:15:53.043 --> 00:15:58.043
<v ->And neither strangely, you tend to think</v>

319
00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.779
that they're an allied country,

320
00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:03.020
America have got in and they'll be, he'll be sent back.

321
00:16:03.020 --> 00:16:04.550
If he's done it.

322
00:16:04.550 --> 00:16:08.243
Look, my argument right through this was, if he's guilty

323
00:16:08.243 --> 00:16:09.400
he goes to court

324
00:16:11.547 --> 00:16:13.300
then he's got to prove that he's not whatever.

325
00:16:13.300 --> 00:16:15.748
Then if he's guilty, lone unforced, we'll all to where.

326
00:16:15.748 --> 00:16:19.350
So that's the mentality that to get

327
00:16:19.350 --> 00:16:22.123
that he would be coming back and sent back

328
00:16:22.123 --> 00:16:25.850
by the Americans and probably get a smack on the wrist.

329
00:16:25.850 --> 00:16:27.340
You shouldn't be here.

330
00:16:27.340 --> 00:16:29.130
<v Interviewer>But during that first week</v>

331
00:16:29.130 --> 00:16:31.370
you had no indication that was going happen?

332
00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:33.504
<v ->No, none whatsoever.</v>

333
00:16:33.504 --> 00:16:38.504
You know, when I'm probably going forward a bit here

334
00:16:40.590 --> 00:16:42.539
but when we eventually got our lawyer

335
00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:47.243
he actually said as well, that, well

336
00:16:47.243 --> 00:16:51.285
let me be Ironman two or three months.

337
00:16:51.285 --> 00:16:53.200
<v Interviewer>[Well, I wanna get into That,</v>

338
00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:55.205
but why don't we go back

339
00:16:55.205 --> 00:16:56.130
to where you gave a public statement

340
00:16:56.130 --> 00:16:59.330
for the first time you, could you tell us what

341
00:16:59.330 --> 00:17:00.630
if you remember what you said

342
00:17:00.630 --> 00:17:02.885
and what reaction you got?

343
00:17:02.885 --> 00:17:07.080
<v ->Look, the statement on my, to the press was,</v>

344
00:17:07.080 --> 00:17:10.050
you know, that the government seemed to not

345
00:17:10.050 --> 00:17:12.530
have more information that we've had.

346
00:17:12.530 --> 00:17:17.147
And I went on the lines of the, you know, that, you know,

347
00:17:17.147 --> 00:17:22.070
now I'm guilty until they've faced a proper court system.

348
00:17:22.070 --> 00:17:25.950
So the interesting part there will be when he gets back.

349
00:17:25.950 --> 00:17:27.910
Yeah, then that's where the procedure

350
00:17:27.910 --> 00:17:29.430
and all these sort of things.

351
00:17:29.430 --> 00:17:33.302
And that was along the lines that I spoke to the media ban.

352
00:17:33.302 --> 00:17:37.630
They did misconstrue, there was a couple

353
00:17:37.630 --> 00:17:39.880
of media that misconstrued things,

354
00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:44.518
because it came back to me quite a few years afterwards

355
00:17:44.518 --> 00:17:48.403
that I'd said David was guilty.

356
00:17:51.485 --> 00:17:55.630
And when I went back through the started reflux

357
00:17:55.630 --> 00:17:58.187
through the websites and everything else

358
00:17:58.187 --> 00:18:02.697
I came across this one where I said, my statement was,

359
00:18:04.954 --> 00:18:08.920
if he is guilty, then you know,

360
00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:10.240
through the court procedures.

361
00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.645
And we all have to wear it, you know, the family

362
00:18:12.645 --> 00:18:17.303
but nice coming out and later on and said,

363
00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:21.670
because they went on a real session when David was coming

364
00:18:21.670 --> 00:18:24.653
back to to Australia,

365
00:18:25.520 --> 00:18:28.380
some reason I will flare it up again and said

366
00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:29.940
even the father said he was guilty

367
00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:34.940
and I'm lies line say, Hey, you have media

368
00:18:36.260 --> 00:18:40.667
that being controlled or being controlling

369
00:18:40.667 --> 00:18:45.667
by governments and within the Rhines, it's.

370
00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:52.667
Yeah, at the start of all this, you know,

371
00:18:52.667 --> 00:18:55.473
you gotta realize what you got to do.

372
00:18:56.340 --> 00:18:59.947
Hey, how, how the processes of gangs to go along way

373
00:18:59.947 --> 00:19:03.523
eventually that you've got to do something about it.

374
00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:07.310
<v Interviewer>What, so you were,</v>

375
00:19:07.310 --> 00:19:09.100
this was your first statement

376
00:19:09.100 --> 00:19:11.730
and you said you were somewhat naive.

377
00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:14.330
What did you do after you gave that statement?

378
00:19:14.330 --> 00:19:17.525
<v ->Packed up and come inside, left the mate.</v>

379
00:19:17.525 --> 00:19:21.300
Once I'd given a statement, they went to the four corners.

380
00:19:21.300 --> 00:19:24.643
The earth just disappeared.

381
00:19:25.775 --> 00:19:28.710
The Strait went quiet.

382
00:19:28.710 --> 00:19:30.240
That was it.

383
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.424
Which is why I was saying, if I'd have given the statement

384
00:19:33.424 --> 00:19:38.424
when I wanted to, oldest business would be heavy stuff

385
00:19:41.090 --> 00:19:43.403
from the media, and that possibly wouldn't have happened.

386
00:19:43.403 --> 00:19:44.780
He would have had the odd ones at all

387
00:19:44.780 --> 00:19:47.383
wanting the interviews and all this, which I still do.

388
00:19:47.383 --> 00:19:48.730
And every now and again

389
00:19:48.730 --> 00:19:53.100
he'll ring that will ring even now asking silly questions.

390
00:19:53.100 --> 00:19:56.921
So, but if I'd have done it early,

391
00:19:56.921 --> 00:19:59.239
it would have been all at the media

392
00:19:59.239 --> 00:20:03.413
demonizing possibly would have settled down.

393
00:20:04.700 --> 00:20:07.690
<v Interviewer>Well, then things did settle down for you.</v>

394
00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:09.460
The media disappeared and your--

395
00:20:09.460 --> 00:20:10.293
<v ->Yeah.</v>

396
00:20:11.158 --> 00:20:13.765
<v ->Your young days went smoothly.</v>

397
00:20:13.765 --> 00:20:18.630
<v ->Yeah, the days were stoked that we eventually three</v>

398
00:20:20.300 --> 00:20:22.660
my daughter got in touch with the Red Cross

399
00:20:23.790 --> 00:20:27.501
because we had no way of speaking with David.

400
00:20:27.501 --> 00:20:31.504
We didn't I, the process of how we could get,

401
00:20:31.504 --> 00:20:35.467
send him a book or send him a letter or whatever,

402
00:20:35.467 --> 00:20:38.502
Red Cross were very, very good.

403
00:20:38.502 --> 00:20:42.760
They asked if we'd give them a weight.

404
00:20:42.760 --> 00:20:46.800
While I saw that with the international Red Cross

405
00:20:46.800 --> 00:20:50.640
whether they were allowed to go into Guantanamo.

406
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.500
<v Interviewer>Well, was he, he was still on the ship.</v>

407
00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:54.587
So he had been moved to country Guantanamo.

408
00:20:54.587 --> 00:20:55.904
<v ->Yeah. He was moved to Guantanamo.</v>

409
00:20:55.904 --> 00:21:00.904
December, January something did few weeks.

410
00:21:06.644 --> 00:21:08.090
<v Interviewer>Did you know</v>

411
00:21:08.090 --> 00:21:10.005
he was being moved to Guantanamo?

412
00:21:10.005 --> 00:21:10.838
How did you hear?

413
00:21:10.838 --> 00:21:12.680
<v ->Through the media once again.</v>

414
00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:14.263
<v Interviewer>The media told you?</v>

415
00:21:14.263 --> 00:21:15.263
<v ->Yes.</v>

416
00:21:15.263 --> 00:21:16.565
<v Interviewer>And did you have any thoughts about that?</v>

417
00:21:16.565 --> 00:21:20.520
<v ->Well, we didn't realize that, I knew Cuba was</v>

418
00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:22.565
on their own 99 year lease

419
00:21:22.565 --> 00:21:27.565
by the Americans as a call fueling stop in y'all dies.

420
00:21:28.070 --> 00:21:32.230
Of course, we didn't realize that they were setting

421
00:21:32.230 --> 00:21:37.150
up a camp for psycho detainees

422
00:21:37.150 --> 00:21:39.307
and all that sort of thing until later on.

423
00:21:39.307 --> 00:21:43.760
So we wanted, by the reason we did wonder why

424
00:21:43.760 --> 00:21:48.197
David was being sent to Guantanamo so

425
00:21:48.197 --> 00:21:51.627
but then as we quickly found out the reason.

426
00:21:51.627 --> 00:21:52.993
<v Interviewer>What was it?</v>

427
00:21:52.993 --> 00:21:57.370
<v ->That they needed a place, which just buys is</v>

428
00:21:57.370 --> 00:22:01.242
outside the jurisdiction of the Geneva convention.

429
00:22:01.242 --> 00:22:04.440
And it was an ideal place.

430
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:05.440
It was already in place.

431
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:06.790
It was already in place.

432
00:22:06.790 --> 00:22:09.530
All they had to do is build the bits

433
00:22:09.530 --> 00:22:11.147
and pieces to house them so.

434
00:22:11.147 --> 00:22:13.220
<v Interviewer>And did you know anything more</v>

435
00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:15.380
about whether David was mistreated

436
00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:17.517
or how he was treated at this time?

437
00:22:17.517 --> 00:22:19.290
<v ->Not at that point as I</v>

438
00:22:19.290 --> 00:22:21.260
we still had no contact with him,

439
00:22:21.260 --> 00:22:26.260
but the first time we fanned out was when,

440
00:22:29.282 --> 00:22:31.902
once our lawyers came on the same

441
00:22:31.902 --> 00:22:36.107
and managed to visit David.

442
00:22:36.107 --> 00:22:40.660
David did a sworn affidavit to say

443
00:22:40.660 --> 00:22:44.150
what was harried being traded that was presented

444
00:22:44.150 --> 00:22:45.850
to the government here in Australia.

445
00:22:45.850 --> 00:22:50.761
And they said, no, I sorta things happen so.

446
00:22:50.761 --> 00:22:54.402
<v Interviewer>Well, I want to go into the Red Cross.</v>

447
00:22:54.402 --> 00:22:55.563
<v ->Yes.</v>

448
00:22:55.563 --> 00:22:56.607
<v Interviewer>You said your daughter helped</v>

449
00:22:56.607 --> 00:22:57.910
you contact the Red Cross.

450
00:22:57.910 --> 00:23:00.190
What exactly did she do on a calculator?

451
00:23:00.190 --> 00:23:03.670
<v ->Well, once I'd been through the international</v>

452
00:23:03.670 --> 00:23:08.670
Red Cross, then I had established a link to Guantanamo

453
00:23:09.630 --> 00:23:13.290
and had a person I got went in once a month or something.

454
00:23:13.290 --> 00:23:16.570
I think it was, and I were tight letters,

455
00:23:16.570 --> 00:23:18.480
parcels, anything like that.

456
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.320
So we sent David letters

457
00:23:22.320 --> 00:23:25.024
unbeknownst to us that were being pretty well.

458
00:23:25.024 --> 00:23:27.900
<v Interviewer>Redacted.</v>

459
00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:28.864
<v ->Yeah.</v>

460
00:23:28.864 --> 00:23:31.723
<v Interviewer>That you would get letters from David?</v>

461
00:23:31.723 --> 00:23:33.744
<v ->And the letters we got from David are absolutely describes</v>

462
00:23:33.744 --> 00:23:35.473
for what they did to them

463
00:23:35.473 --> 00:23:37.990
because we couldn't understand thing he was saying.

464
00:23:37.990 --> 00:23:39.243
<v Interviewer>What did the--</v>

465
00:23:39.243 --> 00:23:44.243
<v ->They had the American stamp and censored stamped on it.</v>

466
00:23:48.584 --> 00:23:52.560
Anything to do with emotions, love, that.

467
00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:57.407
I only saw the language gong and they inked it all out,

468
00:24:00.410 --> 00:24:05.243
sentences were just because they'd write

469
00:24:05.243 --> 00:24:08.540
it'd be writing a sentence and may not be black Val

470
00:24:08.540 --> 00:24:09.600
and then picked out fair, the drugs.

471
00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:11.773
They really didn't know what he was saying.

472
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:14.944
<v Interviewer>What did you think</v>

473
00:24:14.944 --> 00:24:15.777
when you sort of let us like that?

474
00:24:15.777 --> 00:24:17.184
<v ->Well we couldn't believe it.</v>

475
00:24:17.184 --> 00:24:18.934
We didn't believe it.

476
00:24:20.827 --> 00:24:22.518
You know, in our day and age where, you know

477
00:24:22.518 --> 00:24:25.685
you sent in a letter to someone needed

478
00:24:27.785 --> 00:24:28.784
you don't realize that depends where that guy

479
00:24:28.784 --> 00:24:29.787
they do get sent some both wise

480
00:24:29.787 --> 00:24:32.300
from us to him and from David to us.

481
00:24:32.300 --> 00:24:33.720
So, yeah, we were this,

482
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:36.725
we were disappointed with that system.

483
00:24:36.725 --> 00:24:41.030
We did ask, I spoke with the Red Cross about it.

484
00:24:41.030 --> 00:24:46.030
And unfortunately they said, if they interfere

485
00:24:46.690 --> 00:24:50.325
with any of the processes, then they're told to leave

486
00:24:50.325 --> 00:24:52.763
and they would not be welcomed back.

487
00:24:52.763 --> 00:24:54.805
They'll just be stopped.

488
00:24:54.805 --> 00:24:58.790
So the best thing there is to go along with the flowering

489
00:24:58.790 --> 00:25:02.020
just type we can work out what the hell he was saying.

490
00:25:02.020 --> 00:25:03.820
<v Interviewer>Was there anything in the media</v>

491
00:25:03.820 --> 00:25:06.550
at this point about how people were treated

492
00:25:06.550 --> 00:25:08.160
either in Afghanistan

493
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:10.384
before they came to Guantanamo or in Guantanamo?

494
00:25:10.384 --> 00:25:11.580
<v ->No.</v>

495
00:25:11.580 --> 00:25:13.730
<v Interviewer>So you still, at this point,</v>

496
00:25:13.730 --> 00:25:16.747
you still thought David had not been mistreated.

497
00:25:16.747 --> 00:25:17.605
<v ->No, that's right up</v>

498
00:25:17.605 --> 00:25:21.365
to the point when the affidavit come at way.

499
00:25:21.365 --> 00:25:22.510
<v Interviewer>You had no idea.</v>

500
00:25:22.510 --> 00:25:25.504
<v ->Well, I suppose I can't say we had no idea, I suppose</v>

501
00:25:25.504 --> 00:25:30.504
that you knew that the, they have

502
00:25:31.050 --> 00:25:32.653
it doesn't matter way that

503
00:25:32.653 --> 00:25:34.930
that have an interrogation process

504
00:25:34.930 --> 00:25:39.524
because I need deny the reason why and how and whatever

505
00:25:39.524 --> 00:25:44.064
but we don't, we didn't realize what the procedure,

506
00:25:44.064 --> 00:25:46.680
the full procedure was.

507
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:48.370
<v Interviewer>I hate to ask you this</v>

508
00:25:48.370 --> 00:25:52.005
but did you have any feelings that maybe

509
00:25:52.005 --> 00:25:55.480
the Americans justifiably were holding David?

510
00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:57.330
Or what were you thinking?

511
00:25:57.330 --> 00:26:01.560
<v ->Well, you know, it's pretty hard to say because,</v>

512
00:26:01.560 --> 00:26:06.560
you know, and the Americans were, the Americans said

513
00:26:07.150 --> 00:26:10.010
that he wasn't fighting against them.

514
00:26:11.166 --> 00:26:13.285
Australian government said he wasn't fighting against him.

515
00:26:13.285 --> 00:26:16.950
Now, when we went back through all the records

516
00:26:16.950 --> 00:26:18.720
and everything else, it wasn't any Americans are

517
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.390
striding troops there anyway.

518
00:26:21.390 --> 00:26:26.344
So my mindset was, well that's the case will be

519
00:26:26.344 --> 00:26:28.288
that we'll be sending him home.

520
00:26:28.288 --> 00:26:33.288
But didn't, I think when 911 factor come along

521
00:26:34.863 --> 00:26:38.572
and then it's started off what I call a fear factor where

522
00:26:38.572 --> 00:26:42.070
it doesn't matter where you come from, if you're tied up

523
00:26:42.070 --> 00:26:46.930
with whatever, then you're gonna suffer the consequences

524
00:26:46.930 --> 00:26:49.408
because you become a need denied basis.

525
00:26:49.408 --> 00:26:51.580
What, you know, they need denied.

526
00:26:51.580 --> 00:26:55.740
So I say, this was sort of building up, I suppose

527
00:26:55.740 --> 00:27:00.740
but it was, and I suppose in the back of your mind

528
00:27:02.347 --> 00:27:06.940
is thinking, well, if they're asking him questions

529
00:27:06.940 --> 00:27:09.020
to how they gang about it, but anything

530
00:27:09.020 --> 00:27:11.627
I won't bow an allied country where friends

531
00:27:11.627 --> 00:27:15.090
with the American people, that that'd be okay.

532
00:27:15.090 --> 00:27:17.140
But unfortunately, as I say

533
00:27:17.140 --> 00:27:21.282
with the 911 things change very, very drastically.

534
00:27:21.282 --> 00:27:25.310
<v Interviewer>Did you ask Australia to just seed early on.</v>

535
00:27:25.310 --> 00:27:28.224
I know later on your day, but early on, do you

536
00:27:28.224 --> 00:27:31.480
ask Australia to seed to help you get contact with David?

537
00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:36.344
<v ->No, the, right from the word guy, we didn't have much help</v>

538
00:27:36.344 --> 00:27:40.250
from the Australian government at all.

539
00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:42.350
The meetings that we finally had

540
00:27:42.350 --> 00:27:46.000
with the foreign affairs ministers and everyone else was

541
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:50.885
that it's the Americans that are holding him.

542
00:27:50.885 --> 00:27:53.100
They're the ones that are dealing with it.

543
00:27:53.100 --> 00:27:55.750
We have no input. No.

544
00:27:55.750 --> 00:27:57.694
<v Interviewer>That's what they told you?</v>

545
00:27:57.694 --> 00:28:01.483
<v ->Yeah, my argument to particularly our immigration</v>

546
00:28:01.483 --> 00:28:04.541
or the foreign affairs man had examined Dan

547
00:28:04.541 --> 00:28:08.760
I was couldn't have plays, raid the passport because in

548
00:28:08.760 --> 00:28:11.710
there it says that you are an Australian

549
00:28:11.710 --> 00:28:15.650
and you had to be properly dealt with that.

550
00:28:15.650 --> 00:28:17.307
I don't only sort of Lang, and I said, you might as

551
00:28:17.307 --> 00:28:19.562
well take that app because it doesn't stand out

552
00:28:19.562 --> 00:28:23.520
because you're not that, you know, they, they informed us

553
00:28:23.520 --> 00:28:25.900
that they'd sent people.

554
00:28:25.900 --> 00:28:28.645
I, there was nothing untoward happening to David.

555
00:28:28.645 --> 00:28:30.885
<v Interviewer>They told you that?</v>

556
00:28:30.885 --> 00:28:31.718
<v ->I'd always sort anything, but yes.</v>

557
00:28:37.798 --> 00:28:39.045
So it was, yeah, it was

558
00:28:39.045 --> 00:28:40.200
I think the worst part of the whole situation

559
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:45.040
up to that point was normally if you have someone

560
00:28:45.040 --> 00:28:47.261
in trouble and I got a prisoner, you can go visit him.

561
00:28:47.261 --> 00:28:50.610
Unfortunately, David was thousands of miles away.

562
00:28:50.610 --> 00:28:52.817
It's very, very hard to visit, but also very

563
00:28:52.817 --> 00:28:54.443
very hard to talk to talk to.

564
00:28:54.443 --> 00:28:59.003
It took us three years before,

565
00:28:59.003 --> 00:29:02.570
I think it was three years before they finally okayed.

566
00:29:02.570 --> 00:29:07.570
I find like, so we can actually speak with David

567
00:29:09.520 --> 00:29:14.130
but then we're on provides eyes that if you say this

568
00:29:14.130 --> 00:29:18.183
if you say that, then the plug's gonna be polled regardless.

569
00:29:19.360 --> 00:29:21.013
<v Interviewer>I'd like to talk about the folding,</v>

570
00:29:21.947 --> 00:29:23.787
but just one more thing.

571
00:29:23.787 --> 00:29:24.620
The Australian government visited David

572
00:29:24.620 --> 00:29:25.730
while he was in Guantanamo.

573
00:29:25.730 --> 00:29:27.200
Did they tell you that?

574
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:28.316
<v ->Yes.</v>

575
00:29:28.316 --> 00:29:29.149
<v Interviewer>Did they--</v>

576
00:29:29.149 --> 00:29:32.440
<v ->Yes, tell us that they were the, oh, I can't think</v>

577
00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:34.928
of the chaps name, but we did have dealings with them, but

578
00:29:34.928 --> 00:29:39.928
that to me, they were, they just come across negative.

579
00:29:40.520 --> 00:29:44.930
The feeling I got from them was he's being dealt with,

580
00:29:44.930 --> 00:29:46.440
why are you worrying about it?

581
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:51.440
You know, and that type of thing, and my frustrations were

582
00:29:51.780 --> 00:29:55.090
that they don't tell you how he is.

583
00:29:55.090 --> 00:29:57.780
They don't tell you whatever.

584
00:29:57.780 --> 00:30:01.780
And that was, to me was the most frustrating part

585
00:30:01.780 --> 00:30:04.541
where they have the right to visit

586
00:30:04.541 --> 00:30:09.541
but then they don't really pass on what's happening.

587
00:30:10.340 --> 00:30:12.250
It just made the situation very

588
00:30:12.250 --> 00:30:15.993
very frustrating and very, very hard to deal with.

589
00:30:17.030 --> 00:30:18.900
<v Interviewer>And how did you finally</v>

590
00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:20.885
find a lawyer to help you?

591
00:30:20.885 --> 00:30:25.843
<v ->Well, earl, well, if not early, but I suppose about four</v>

592
00:30:27.521 --> 00:30:29.904
or five weeks into the situation, or once David was

593
00:30:29.904 --> 00:30:32.860
incarcerated into Guantanamo

594
00:30:32.860 --> 00:30:36.267
then we started having phone calls from different lawyers.

595
00:30:36.267 --> 00:30:41.267
Yeah, some of them, you can, you get the presence

596
00:30:45.870 --> 00:30:49.400
of feeling that they were after Nigel variety, you know,

597
00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:51.498
the way that we've gone about talking to

598
00:30:51.498 --> 00:30:56.498
and then this chap, now the lawyer rang us

599
00:30:57.700 --> 00:31:02.528
up at the blue, very, very down to earth, straightforward.

600
00:31:02.528 --> 00:31:06.850
So we decided that we would speak to him,

601
00:31:06.850 --> 00:31:11.850
say my wife and myself and my wife's son sat down with him.

602
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:16.190
And we spoke with him for good countless hours.

603
00:31:16.190 --> 00:31:21.057
And then I think we made a great choice statement.

604
00:31:21.921 --> 00:31:23.630
<v Interviewer>Who was it?</v>

605
00:31:23.630 --> 00:31:27.203
<v ->Kenny, he was, he had a very good name</v>

606
00:31:29.900 --> 00:31:33.363
with no indigenous population with their,

607
00:31:33.363 --> 00:31:35.263
what they were fighting for.

608
00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:40.710
The one thing that spies that stood out there was

609
00:31:42.005 --> 00:31:43.610
that he'd never won a case as far as I was concerned.

610
00:31:43.610 --> 00:31:47.130
But what it was showing me was what he was dealing

611
00:31:47.130 --> 00:31:48.610
with was a similar lines

612
00:31:48.610 --> 00:31:50.460
as what we were dealing with the guy so far.

613
00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:52.060
And then the wall goes up

614
00:31:52.987 --> 00:31:54.949
and that happens here without indigenous people, that all

615
00:31:54.949 --> 00:31:57.546
of a sudden the world I was up in the top 90 further.

616
00:31:57.546 --> 00:32:02.546
So when we took on and Kenny

617
00:32:03.690 --> 00:32:05.670
and he was probably by now as well

618
00:32:05.670 --> 00:32:08.403
which was to our advantage.

619
00:32:08.403 --> 00:32:13.163
But Steven tend not to be very caring is,

620
00:32:15.220 --> 00:32:18.048
he was just an all around great block.

621
00:32:18.048 --> 00:32:20.630
And he was a gentleman

622
00:32:20.630 --> 00:32:24.510
that when you first met him, you felt comfortable with him.

623
00:32:24.510 --> 00:32:26.960
There was not, as in, a bad statement

624
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.770
as far as now, some lawyers we met.

625
00:32:29.770 --> 00:32:31.648
Yeah, they looked down on you

626
00:32:31.648 --> 00:32:36.648
that they are doing a job for you and go along those lines.

627
00:32:37.189 --> 00:32:41.350
And you're just, yeah, but Steven

628
00:32:41.350 --> 00:32:44.284
no he come, Steven can count me in at any level.

629
00:32:44.284 --> 00:32:47.300
And I suppose that's because of people that he was dealing

630
00:32:47.300 --> 00:32:51.960
with through his other cases and that, so

631
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:55.023
and he turned out to be very, very good.

632
00:32:56.070 --> 00:32:59.564
<v Interviewer>What was the first thing he did for you?</v>

633
00:32:59.564 --> 00:33:00.884
<v ->Well, the first thing he did</v>

634
00:33:00.884 --> 00:33:05.320
was to approach the government to try

635
00:33:05.320 --> 00:33:09.387
and get some semblance of organization

636
00:33:09.387 --> 00:33:13.328
to what we wanted to do as far as begging with David

637
00:33:13.328 --> 00:33:17.750
that didn't go down too well,

638
00:33:17.750 --> 00:33:21.670
say the next strategy was, was quite surprising.

639
00:33:21.670 --> 00:33:26.300
They had a, the politicians thing here

640
00:33:32.010 --> 00:33:35.790
in Adelaide conference and Steven rang me

641
00:33:35.790 --> 00:33:39.189
and I shouldn't laugh, but he rang me and said

642
00:33:39.189 --> 00:33:40.897
how do you feel like going in a cage?

643
00:33:40.897 --> 00:33:42.550
And I said, what are you talking about?

644
00:33:42.550 --> 00:33:46.070
He said, well, me and a friend have just built this cage

645
00:33:46.070 --> 00:33:48.437
on the same dimensions as David's now,

646
00:33:48.437 --> 00:33:52.325
what we could get in that.

647
00:33:52.325 --> 00:33:54.840
And he said, we'd like you to represent David in his cage

648
00:33:54.840 --> 00:33:57.403
in front of this liberal conference.

649
00:33:57.403 --> 00:33:59.430
I went no dialogue, the idea of that.

650
00:33:59.430 --> 00:34:01.060
And he said, well, at least we'll get something

651
00:34:01.060 --> 00:34:02.365
across to them.

652
00:34:02.365 --> 00:34:05.850
Anyway, they're not paid, but dude got to put up with this.

653
00:34:05.850 --> 00:34:07.453
So yes, I did it.

654
00:34:07.453 --> 00:34:09.753
<v Interviewer>What did you wear?</v>

655
00:34:10.705 --> 00:34:12.930
<v ->At that point I just wore my normal clothes.</v>

656
00:34:12.930 --> 00:34:16.760
So we didn't know what color creed or whatever the clothing

657
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:19.450
while they were wearing and Guantanamo at that point.

658
00:34:19.450 --> 00:34:23.124
But that was the first time.

659
00:34:23.124 --> 00:34:23.957
<v Interviewer>What kind of response</v>

660
00:34:23.957 --> 00:34:26.186
did you get being in a cage of it?

661
00:34:26.186 --> 00:34:27.845
<v ->Very good actually.</v>

662
00:34:27.845 --> 00:34:31.470
The reaction, I suppose, because people here

663
00:34:31.470 --> 00:34:36.290
in Australia at that point in time,

664
00:34:36.290 --> 00:34:40.820
they weren't really sure what we were trying to do

665
00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:43.830
is get the response across to them that here

666
00:34:43.830 --> 00:34:46.410
you have an Australian citizen that was being demonized

667
00:34:46.410 --> 00:34:48.210
by our government and by

668
00:34:48.210 --> 00:34:50.469
and through the government to the media

669
00:34:50.469 --> 00:34:55.140
which I'm the Australian law.

670
00:34:55.140 --> 00:34:58.288
If they're saying you're guilty long enough,

671
00:34:58.288 --> 00:35:01.690
you're putting pressure on a jury to start with say it.

672
00:35:01.690 --> 00:35:06.690
Shouldn't be say that Mike sat to start with that case.

673
00:35:07.065 --> 00:35:09.150
So this is a point where we're trying to get

674
00:35:09.150 --> 00:35:10.608
across the Australian people.

675
00:35:10.608 --> 00:35:13.320
He had an Australian citizen not being looked

676
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.310
after by the Australian government, demonizing him

677
00:35:16.310 --> 00:35:17.217
to the point where nothing will stand

678
00:35:17.217 --> 00:35:19.733
up in the court anyway.

679
00:35:19.733 --> 00:35:24.080
And so that's the point we're getting across at that point

680
00:35:24.080 --> 00:35:28.027
in time, John had went through the back door to the mating.

681
00:35:28.027 --> 00:35:31.900
Phillip Roddick did the same thing.

682
00:35:31.900 --> 00:35:34.229
None of them would come and front us.

683
00:35:34.229 --> 00:35:39.229
There was one gentlemen that did, the ICI's response

684
00:35:40.150 --> 00:35:43.300
was typical political response

685
00:35:43.300 --> 00:35:45.830
that it was in the middle of the ride.

686
00:35:45.830 --> 00:35:48.630
He wouldn't go one way or the other, but while he's talking

687
00:35:48.630 --> 00:35:49.867
to you was just wondering why, and when he got back,

688
00:35:49.867 --> 00:35:53.650
then he's otherwise typical politician.

689
00:35:53.650 --> 00:35:56.530
So that was the start of the spice

690
00:35:56.530 --> 00:36:00.103
the radical side of things.

691
00:36:02.040 --> 00:36:03.610
<v Interviewer>Did you, when you said</v>

692
00:36:03.610 --> 00:36:05.350
that David was demonized,

693
00:36:05.350 --> 00:36:07.200
who demonized them besides the media

694
00:36:07.200 --> 00:36:11.291
with actual Australian officials speak out?

695
00:36:11.291 --> 00:36:12.580
'Cause you know--

696
00:36:12.580 --> 00:36:13.771
<v ->We tend to believe</v>

697
00:36:13.771 --> 00:36:16.571
in the end that there was leakages from the, IFP and ICI

698
00:36:17.787 --> 00:36:22.047
to the media about different things that I can't remember

699
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:24.360
some of the things that were happening

700
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:29.360
but that he was banned.

701
00:36:29.368 --> 00:36:32.587
He was an evil,

702
00:36:32.587 --> 00:36:37.020
the problem really arises when this American government come

703
00:36:37.020 --> 00:36:39.568
at nine David is one of the worst in the worst.

704
00:36:39.568 --> 00:36:40.571
So the Australian government jumped

705
00:36:40.571 --> 00:36:43.673
on board and said, yes, he is.

706
00:36:45.609 --> 00:36:48.070
That was passed through the media that yes,

707
00:36:48.070 --> 00:36:52.250
David Hicks is the worst passing in the world.

708
00:36:52.250 --> 00:36:54.987
He's been doing this and he's been doing that

709
00:36:54.987 --> 00:36:58.208
and everything else, but there was nothing proved.

710
00:36:58.208 --> 00:37:00.428
He had no right of court.

711
00:37:00.428 --> 00:37:04.670
Well, as a court, as we, now, it, you know,

712
00:37:04.670 --> 00:37:09.670
the court that David eventually went to was not good at all.

713
00:37:10.300 --> 00:37:13.760
But so you had all this business

714
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:15.523
that you're trying to deal with.

715
00:37:15.523 --> 00:37:19.220
We were trying to get as much knowledge

716
00:37:19.220 --> 00:37:22.910
as we could about the whole thing so that we can then start

717
00:37:22.910 --> 00:37:27.910
or train the lawyers, the different groups that popped up

718
00:37:28.229 --> 00:37:33.229
that come on side with us to put across to the public.

719
00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:37.600
Because at that point in time, Stephen Kenny said

720
00:37:37.600 --> 00:37:41.820
to me that get ready for the onslaught now, because you'll

721
00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:46.820
we be asked to do public speaking on David's affairs.

722
00:37:47.789 --> 00:37:49.690
And of course I said nah nah nah.

723
00:37:49.690 --> 00:37:52.310
That's not what to be doing that.

724
00:37:52.310 --> 00:37:55.720
So, but he was right in the long term.

725
00:37:55.720 --> 00:37:56.810
Yes, that did happen.

726
00:37:56.810 --> 00:38:01.712
So you had to, they had, the bullets are firing at us.

727
00:38:01.712 --> 00:38:06.712
We needed something to circumvent all that say, we,

728
00:38:08.331 --> 00:38:13.152
I suppose as strategy was human rights

729
00:38:13.152 --> 00:38:17.640
regardless what a passing Danny's still has to

730
00:38:17.640 --> 00:38:21.552
have that human rights aspect where you can't

731
00:38:21.552 --> 00:38:23.020
bludgeon them to death

732
00:38:23.020 --> 00:38:24.907
because they're not going to tell you what they wanted.

733
00:38:24.907 --> 00:38:29.907
And I always say my, my theory of interrogations are

734
00:38:33.040 --> 00:38:37.370
that if you want to know something about me,

735
00:38:37.370 --> 00:38:41.120
you already know part of that question, right?

736
00:38:41.120 --> 00:38:44.960
So you will keep, even if I'm saying now no, no, no,

737
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:47.540
you keep going, I agree with what you're asking me.

738
00:38:47.540 --> 00:38:49.800
And that's all I want, regardless

739
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:51.150
whether it's gonna put you

740
00:38:51.150 --> 00:38:53.610
in a situation where you're gonna be severely dealt

741
00:38:53.610 --> 00:38:55.870
with hangings or whatever.

742
00:38:55.870 --> 00:38:59.060
And this was one of the situations it was

743
00:38:59.060 --> 00:39:00.270
up with David at that point

744
00:39:00.270 --> 00:39:04.008
in time was that he possibly faced a death sentence

745
00:39:04.008 --> 00:39:09.008
which to me was, well, none I had made all family was not on

746
00:39:12.460 --> 00:39:16.192
because you don't give someone a death sentence

747
00:39:16.192 --> 00:39:20.272
if you haven't faced a court to start with.

748
00:39:20.272 --> 00:39:22.970
So it wasn't a long down the track when we put

749
00:39:22.970 --> 00:39:24.340
started putting pressure on them

750
00:39:24.340 --> 00:39:27.006
and everything else where they actually dropped

751
00:39:27.006 --> 00:39:28.430
that death sentence off.

752
00:39:28.430 --> 00:39:30.150
<v Interviewer>Did you say you became more comfortable</v>

753
00:39:30.150 --> 00:39:31.328
with the media?

754
00:39:31.328 --> 00:39:36.328
<v ->I come across a strategy that I, well</v>

755
00:39:38.590 --> 00:39:39.900
I suppose it's not a strategy.

756
00:39:39.900 --> 00:39:42.770
It's it's when you start reading

757
00:39:42.770 --> 00:39:45.328
about what different people are doing on their,

758
00:39:45.328 --> 00:39:48.830
of what's happening with them.

759
00:39:48.830 --> 00:39:51.510
And the first thing that came

760
00:39:51.510 --> 00:39:53.853
as a bit is a thing called truth.

761
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.168
Never, if you're gonna be going

762
00:39:58.168 --> 00:40:00.988
around a circuit and you're telling lies.

763
00:40:00.988 --> 00:40:04.310
If you've got 12 places to talk at,

764
00:40:04.310 --> 00:40:07.410
by the time you get the 12th one, the story's not the same.

765
00:40:07.410 --> 00:40:09.640
So people would start having doubts.

766
00:40:09.640 --> 00:40:13.757
Say, if you impart the truth, as you know it, at 0.1

767
00:40:16.080 --> 00:40:18.930
Tommy get ran the 0.12 nothing's changed.

768
00:40:18.930 --> 00:40:21.323
You still sign what you've said at that starts.

769
00:40:22.779 --> 00:40:24.529
I've not been shined.

770
00:40:25.737 --> 00:40:29.550
And so my thing with all this business was okay,

771
00:40:29.550 --> 00:40:31.712
we don't know what the truth is.

772
00:40:31.712 --> 00:40:35.813
So all we can do is the information we get is

773
00:40:35.813 --> 00:40:40.813
if David had done this, or if David had done that,

774
00:40:41.330 --> 00:40:46.330
we still have a proper judiciary court system

775
00:40:46.491 --> 00:40:49.140
that can do with it, right?

776
00:40:49.140 --> 00:40:53.900
So that way you're still stating the truth

777
00:40:53.900 --> 00:40:57.803
as far as your now it, and then let the courts go

778
00:40:57.803 --> 00:41:01.370
through the proper process of finding

779
00:41:01.370 --> 00:41:05.100
out then whether that situation is right or wrong,

780
00:41:05.100 --> 00:41:06.740
not what you're trying to impart.

781
00:41:06.740 --> 00:41:10.848
So no side of the fact of the truth side of it was

782
00:41:10.848 --> 00:41:14.214
that you had to deal with what the government was saying,

783
00:41:14.214 --> 00:41:18.461
what the media was saying.

784
00:41:18.461 --> 00:41:23.461
If they know so much, why aren't they coming

785
00:41:23.580 --> 00:41:28.250
to us and saying, this is what Joe blogs said.

786
00:41:28.250 --> 00:41:30.760
And he was one that was told I have it.

787
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:31.593
But none of that

788
00:41:31.593 --> 00:41:35.760
eventually that's what we were getting was old supposition

789
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:39.067
and innuendos, and cut his throat and whatever

790
00:41:39.067 --> 00:41:40.580
and all this sort of business.

791
00:41:40.580 --> 00:41:43.232
So it was a hard situation to deal with.

792
00:41:43.232 --> 00:41:48.232
We had a group started here called Fair Guy for David

793
00:41:49.573 --> 00:41:54.573
then Sydney, they Western Sydney pace thing

794
00:41:57.050 --> 00:42:02.050
cropped up and all these all in support.

795
00:42:02.510 --> 00:42:04.310
And when I had meetings

796
00:42:04.310 --> 00:42:06.840
with the different ones that organize A's

797
00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:11.363
their thing was a similar process to what mine was,

798
00:42:14.670 --> 00:42:17.830
regardless if someone's guilty or not guilty,

799
00:42:17.830 --> 00:42:20.840
we have a process to find out.

800
00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:24.870
And that was just a bottom, basic law and

801
00:42:24.870 --> 00:42:28.360
of justice and human rights, and which David wasn't getting.

802
00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:31.040
So that's the line we'd sort of kept on.

803
00:42:31.040 --> 00:42:36.040
And also you're speaking to different levels of people.

804
00:42:36.490 --> 00:42:38.960
You know, unfortunately with people

805
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:40.588
you do have different social classes

806
00:42:40.588 --> 00:42:43.173
and you had to deal with all of them.

807
00:42:43.173 --> 00:42:48.173
So you just try and speak basic law.

808
00:42:52.723 --> 00:42:55.470
Most people know what human rights are

809
00:42:55.470 --> 00:42:58.235
and how it deals with each individual.

810
00:42:58.235 --> 00:43:03.235
So it was not being a different process for me,

811
00:43:05.090 --> 00:43:06.820
it's something that I've never done before

812
00:43:06.820 --> 00:43:10.023
and never ever want to do again, was to face multitudes

813
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:15.140
I suppose, of people where you've got to get a point across

814
00:43:15.140 --> 00:43:17.040
and they do have the odd heckler,

815
00:43:17.040 --> 00:43:18.973
but you learn to, I always learned

816
00:43:18.973 --> 00:43:21.072
at the staffing that everybody has a right to say

817
00:43:21.072 --> 00:43:24.650
regardless of the old call

818
00:43:24.650 --> 00:43:28.769
and they calling your son a terrorist or whatever,

819
00:43:28.769 --> 00:43:33.030
my job has changed that by trying to deal

820
00:43:33.030 --> 00:43:36.192
with that process that had, you know, he's guilty.

821
00:43:36.192 --> 00:43:38.710
He's never been through a court system

822
00:43:38.710 --> 00:43:39.931
just to put them back.

823
00:43:39.931 --> 00:43:41.547
So they have another thing about it.

824
00:43:41.547 --> 00:43:44.200
And the process worked with some

825
00:43:44.200 --> 00:43:48.080
some of them were just too, I suppose

826
00:43:48.080 --> 00:43:52.160
government by what the government said and believed them.

827
00:43:52.160 --> 00:43:53.872
And now very hard to crack.

828
00:43:53.872 --> 00:43:56.130
<v Interviewer>Did your attitude about the Australian</v>

829
00:43:56.130 --> 00:43:58.190
government or even the American government change

830
00:43:58.190 --> 00:44:00.293
in these first few years?

831
00:44:00.293 --> 00:44:02.870
<v ->Ask me that one again.</v>

832
00:44:02.870 --> 00:44:04.010
<v Interviewer>Did your attitude</v>

833
00:44:04.010 --> 00:44:06.880
about the American government or the Australian government

834
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:10.090
begin to change during this, these years?

835
00:44:10.090 --> 00:44:12.040
<v ->Well, it did, because before this,</v>

836
00:44:12.040 --> 00:44:16.263
before these events happened, I wasn't in the politics.

837
00:44:19.326 --> 00:44:21.300
I was one of those people

838
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:22.540
if the government were rolling you

839
00:44:22.540 --> 00:44:24.320
let them roll on if they put this out well.

840
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.293
So I bet we got to pay the extra whatever

841
00:44:26.293 --> 00:44:31.132
with David's situation, because it was say a politicized.

842
00:44:31.132 --> 00:44:35.810
Then you started, well, maybe I should start looking

843
00:44:35.810 --> 00:44:40.520
at the mentality that these people come under.

844
00:44:41.472 --> 00:44:45.253
And it's, you have the,

845
00:44:45.253 --> 00:44:48.915
at that point in time, you had the Bush Administration.

846
00:44:48.915 --> 00:44:53.511
I've always, I seem to come across a point where

847
00:44:53.511 --> 00:44:58.243
president Bush really wasn't a very articulate fellow.

848
00:44:59.130 --> 00:45:02.700
Someone was, I believe someone was writing his speeches

849
00:45:02.700 --> 00:45:05.280
and I believe he was actually governed.

850
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:06.955
They wasn't the president, he's the president

851
00:45:06.955 --> 00:45:09.857
of the United States as a figurehead.

852
00:45:10.955 --> 00:45:15.407
He was told by the Chinese, and if you look

853
00:45:16.610 --> 00:45:21.610
at the people that would be behind him, you had money

854
00:45:22.810 --> 00:45:27.760
or all influence on all the, of started to had laid out.

855
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:29.023
And people who sat to me no, no, no.

856
00:45:29.023 --> 00:45:31.616
I said, well, every time I go in

857
00:45:31.616 --> 00:45:33.400
and have a look at that, God wants situations.

858
00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:35.640
Why does that stand out?

859
00:45:35.640 --> 00:45:40.640
That he has a man that can't even talk probably, right.

860
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:44.540
That's running the thing.

861
00:45:44.540 --> 00:45:48.490
And he only wants to do, was to beat his father.

862
00:45:48.490 --> 00:45:51.630
Yeah, he's father wanted to blow

863
00:45:51.630 --> 00:45:55.220
up the rock and everything else and tie guy

864
00:45:55.220 --> 00:45:58.563
the countries and do what he thought was best for America.

865
00:46:00.730 --> 00:46:02.610
And then just have the other person come in

866
00:46:02.610 --> 00:46:06.160
and wants to better that say

867
00:46:06.160 --> 00:46:08.520
then you come across the Australian government

868
00:46:08.520 --> 00:46:11.130
who I thought at that time were bending

869
00:46:11.130 --> 00:46:14.053
to the will of the American influence.

870
00:46:15.050 --> 00:46:20.050
And I just found that Australian government

871
00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:22.050
was very appeasing.

872
00:46:22.050 --> 00:46:25.090
If the Americans said jumped my side I say all right.

873
00:46:25.090 --> 00:46:30.090
And this is how I had it come across to me.

874
00:46:30.213 --> 00:46:34.920
If I find, I said that to someone that I know straight

875
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:37.573
and gamma strong, but they weren't no way.

876
00:46:37.573 --> 00:46:42.573
I thought we had probably couple of weak links

877
00:46:43.040 --> 00:46:46.440
in our Australian government at that time, who was Mr.

878
00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:50.715
Roddick, who was not sure what he wanted to do,

879
00:46:50.715 --> 00:46:55.715
Alexander Danner, who was his iron man

880
00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:57.995
and what to get what he wanted across him

881
00:46:57.995 --> 00:47:01.580
regardless of what everybody else said.

882
00:47:01.580 --> 00:47:03.253
Yes, David Hicks was bad.

883
00:47:03.253 --> 00:47:06.470
And that's exactly what George Bush said.

884
00:47:06.470 --> 00:47:09.792
So I find governments

885
00:47:09.792 --> 00:47:14.792
they have a very basic line before you get into the process.

886
00:47:18.692 --> 00:47:20.693
You can say what you like, do what you like.

887
00:47:20.693 --> 00:47:24.780
And everybody's gone job that this chap's good.

888
00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:25.613
We'll vote for him.

889
00:47:25.613 --> 00:47:27.890
So he's voted in, he goes

890
00:47:27.890 --> 00:47:31.590
across that line and that's where he stops because

891
00:47:31.590 --> 00:47:34.270
once he sets foot back across that line to back

892
00:47:34.270 --> 00:47:36.760
up what he assigned before he's finished.

893
00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:38.700
So it's probably a, really a really basic look

894
00:47:38.700 --> 00:47:42.503
or what I think of how the government whack.

895
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:46.832
<v Interviewer>So I'm gonna move forward a little bit</v>

896
00:47:46.832 --> 00:47:49.870
to when you said you finally got a phone call to David,

897
00:47:49.870 --> 00:47:50.940
how did that happen?

898
00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:52.257
And could you describe the phone call?

899
00:47:52.257 --> 00:47:54.140
<v ->Well, the phone call was arraigned</v>

900
00:47:55.408 --> 00:47:58.490
by the foreign affairs department finally.

901
00:47:58.490 --> 00:48:00.210
<v Interviewer>Why did they arrange it?</v>

902
00:48:00.210 --> 00:48:01.960
Why did they do it?

903
00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:05.990
<v ->That was in I reckon that was</v>

904
00:48:05.990 --> 00:48:08.231
three years after David was incarcerated

905
00:48:08.231 --> 00:48:10.900
that we find once the lawyers

906
00:48:11.893 --> 00:48:16.893
and Dan Maury came across, then that was all, yeah.

907
00:48:21.750 --> 00:48:24.410
The, it needs to talk to the parents, not I made

908
00:48:24.410 --> 00:48:25.950
I dunno what they influence it was

909
00:48:25.950 --> 00:48:28.354
but we're allowed to talk to him.

910
00:48:28.354 --> 00:48:32.754
But then as providers, eyes, we were told

911
00:48:32.754 --> 00:48:37.754
that if you start asking bad has treatment is, whatever.

912
00:48:38.010 --> 00:48:39.490
They'll call it the block.

913
00:48:39.490 --> 00:48:43.188
If you stop port to them, politics, home, or overseas

914
00:48:43.188 --> 00:48:45.271
the plugs port.

915
00:48:45.271 --> 00:48:50.271
So the conversation was pretty restraint, really?

916
00:48:50.830 --> 00:48:52.471
When you think about it, because mind you

917
00:48:52.471 --> 00:48:55.853
what we talk about normal conversation is politics.

918
00:48:57.049 --> 00:49:00.006
That sort of things I really would.

919
00:49:00.006 --> 00:49:05.006
It was a very strained conversation.

920
00:49:08.907 --> 00:49:12.960
Yeah, it was a strange one because you couldn't really talk

921
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:15.170
about what you wanted to know.

922
00:49:15.170 --> 00:49:18.711
So it was just day to day event Joe blogs is doing okay

923
00:49:18.711 --> 00:49:23.710
and this one's croak and so.

924
00:49:23.710 --> 00:49:25.549
It was just a generalization.

925
00:49:25.549 --> 00:49:30.269
And then that was the end of the phone call.

926
00:49:30.269 --> 00:49:31.102
<v Interviewer>How long was the phone call?</v>

927
00:49:31.102 --> 00:49:32.890
<v ->And the phone call at that point,</v>

928
00:49:32.890 --> 00:49:35.290
I think it was about 20 minutes.

929
00:49:35.290 --> 00:49:40.290
And there was Beverly, myself on my daughter

930
00:49:40.570 --> 00:49:41.743
at the first one.

931
00:49:43.473 --> 00:49:45.940
I think I, over the period of time, I remember we had about

932
00:49:45.940 --> 00:49:47.720
three phone calls.

933
00:49:47.720 --> 00:49:49.060
The lands were allowed.

934
00:49:49.060 --> 00:49:52.567
I roll that period of time, which is not many.

935
00:49:52.567 --> 00:49:55.527
<v Interviewer>How did he sound to you on the phone?</v>

936
00:49:55.527 --> 00:49:58.177
<v ->At the first time it was quite emotional.</v>

937
00:49:58.177 --> 00:50:00.890
And the second time he was there, we spoke

938
00:50:00.890 --> 00:50:05.890
with him was, I think he was coming across it.

939
00:50:05.890 --> 00:50:09.943
He was trying to tell us something.

940
00:50:11.510 --> 00:50:13.187
I said, fine, caller refused to speak to us

941
00:50:13.187 --> 00:50:18.187
because he, it was at that point that he was frustrated.

942
00:50:19.250 --> 00:50:21.671
He couldn't say what he wanted.

943
00:50:21.671 --> 00:50:24.487
He couldn't say that it was where he even told anyone so

944
00:50:24.487 --> 00:50:29.487
and we accepted that.

945
00:50:29.650 --> 00:50:31.810
You know, there was nothing else you can do about it.

946
00:50:31.810 --> 00:50:35.690
They rang, the phone call come through to Zack

947
00:50:35.690 --> 00:50:38.610
and had David not sure he wants to sign anything

948
00:50:38.610 --> 00:50:40.080
and go speak to you.

949
00:50:40.080 --> 00:50:43.709
So we'll go and speak to him and come back to you.

950
00:50:43.709 --> 00:50:47.149
So when that came back, they said, now he's talking

951
00:50:47.149 --> 00:50:47.982
about a spank sack.

952
00:50:47.982 --> 00:50:52.982
It was pretty hard, but you try and look at it

953
00:50:53.250 --> 00:50:55.130
from David's point of view.

954
00:50:55.130 --> 00:50:58.460
And we you're talking thousands of miles away

955
00:50:58.460 --> 00:50:59.410
from each other.

956
00:50:59.410 --> 00:51:02.440
And you can't talk about how he's being treated,

957
00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:07.440
how he's feeling or whatever says it was pretty tough.

958
00:51:07.520 --> 00:51:08.573
Yeah, well, I ran.

959
00:51:09.860 --> 00:51:11.090
<v Interviewer>At this point</v>

960
00:51:11.090 --> 00:51:14.960
was the affidavit seen yet where he talked about his music?

961
00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:18.550
<v ->The affidavit, I believe I remember came</v>

962
00:51:18.550 --> 00:51:23.203
in after that last phone call, it was done

963
00:51:23.203 --> 00:51:28.203
by when Major Maury came on, first came on the same

964
00:51:28.325 --> 00:51:30.060
and they sat with David and worked

965
00:51:30.060 --> 00:51:34.930
over the whole is what was happening to him.

966
00:51:34.930 --> 00:51:37.450
And that time, Major Maury

967
00:51:37.450 --> 00:51:41.725
was pretty media conscious at that point.

968
00:51:41.725 --> 00:51:44.760
So that decided to go ahead and put

969
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:48.290
out an affidavit on old David's torches and everything else.

970
00:51:48.290 --> 00:51:49.980
And I think it was,

971
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:52.567
I think it embarrassed a lot of officials,

972
00:51:52.567 --> 00:51:56.130
it was asked to be

973
00:51:56.130 --> 00:51:59.490
to the Americans to investigate these allegations.

974
00:51:59.490 --> 00:52:03.020
And the answer that came back

975
00:52:03.020 --> 00:52:06.450
to us was that the Americans had already investigated it.

976
00:52:06.450 --> 00:52:11.245
And there's no truth in those affidavits whatsoever

977
00:52:11.245 --> 00:52:15.890
to me to the Australian government was what's wrong

978
00:52:15.890 --> 00:52:18.820
with the an independent body to investigate.

979
00:52:18.820 --> 00:52:21.703
There's plenty of bodies out there that groups

980
00:52:21.703 --> 00:52:26.703
that could investigate where that being one side

981
00:52:27.050 --> 00:52:29.960
or the other, and you had to get to the bottom of it.

982
00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:33.543
But now they persevered and said, Nope, the American

983
00:52:33.543 --> 00:52:37.050
the Americans have already investigated

984
00:52:37.050 --> 00:52:39.453
and there's no truth to any of the clients.

985
00:52:40.520 --> 00:52:41.826
So that was their way

986
00:52:41.826 --> 00:52:45.900
of saying jumping the Leica spies.

987
00:52:45.900 --> 00:52:50.900
But I mean, an affidavit is a lawful piece of paper.

988
00:52:51.885 --> 00:52:54.370
And if you're telling lies on it

989
00:52:54.370 --> 00:52:58.623
that's particularly here, it's Tammy's job.

990
00:53:01.200 --> 00:53:03.869
So why would someone that's gonna be fined

991
00:53:03.869 --> 00:53:06.380
on $20,000 or 10 year jowl saying

992
00:53:06.380 --> 00:53:09.070
on top of what he's already been through?

993
00:53:09.070 --> 00:53:09.903
It's all lies.

994
00:53:11.271 --> 00:53:12.533
<v Interviewer>So what did you think?</v>

995
00:53:13.490 --> 00:53:16.600
<v ->Well, I look when I read the affidavit now</v>

996
00:53:16.600 --> 00:53:20.963
I think what he put in there was pretty, yeah, I am.

997
00:53:23.365 --> 00:53:24.610
From what wasted, the information we were starting to get

998
00:53:25.686 --> 00:53:28.510
before the affidavit was that yes, that he wasn't being

999
00:53:28.510 --> 00:53:31.070
treated very well at that time.

1000
00:53:31.070 --> 00:53:34.087
Major Maury was Steven Kenney.

1001
00:53:34.087 --> 00:53:38.519
But if you can come across with information and pass

1002
00:53:38.519 --> 00:53:43.479
on those about these allegations, and yes, they did happen.

1003
00:53:43.479 --> 00:53:48.006
You also had the gentlemen from the law council

1004
00:53:48.006 --> 00:53:53.006
of Australia that went across at one point as well.

1005
00:53:54.029 --> 00:53:57.950
And he came back with the same thing and right pool

1006
00:53:57.950 --> 00:54:01.124
a huge report on the system and on the commission system

1007
00:54:01.124 --> 00:54:06.124
that they had in place and the Australian government

1008
00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:08.800
wouldn't accept it.

1009
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:10.850
And yet the Australian government sent this gentleman.

1010
00:54:10.850 --> 00:54:12.790
I, they had to do a report.

1011
00:54:12.790 --> 00:54:15.420
So he's done the report, brought it back and tabled it

1012
00:54:15.420 --> 00:54:18.253
and the government refused.

1013
00:54:19.160 --> 00:54:23.230
So it's just shows you the mindset that becomes part

1014
00:54:23.230 --> 00:54:25.200
of people's guilt.

1015
00:54:25.200 --> 00:54:29.390
I suppose you'd call it instead of chemistry, data

1016
00:54:29.390 --> 00:54:33.390
and scientists that did away as it didn't, nah

1017
00:54:33.390 --> 00:54:35.207
we're not sure.

1018
00:54:35.207 --> 00:54:36.791
Or, you know, it's an embarrassment to it.

1019
00:54:36.791 --> 00:54:38.749
And it's already been handled anyway.

1020
00:54:38.749 --> 00:54:41.250
And that type of thing.

1021
00:54:41.250 --> 00:54:43.010
<v Interviewer>And your own thoughts in terms of,</v>

1022
00:54:43.010 --> 00:54:45.950
do you think, that you think anything

1023
00:54:45.950 --> 00:54:48.680
differently about David's treatment

1024
00:54:48.680 --> 00:54:51.090
after you read that you, you believe in?

1025
00:54:51.090 --> 00:54:55.271
<v ->No, I, my belief is that yes, that it did happen.</v>

1026
00:54:55.271 --> 00:54:58.610
I think the thing that I would put the nail

1027
00:54:58.610 --> 00:55:00.970
in the coffin was the Abba gripe situation.

1028
00:55:00.970 --> 00:55:04.090
The way it had five coming out

1029
00:55:04.090 --> 00:55:07.550
of a system of what the interrogators were doing

1030
00:55:07.550 --> 00:55:12.269
that the gentleman that was Guantanamo by that kind

1031
00:55:12.269 --> 00:55:17.269
of think of his name, but he was the chief at that time.

1032
00:55:17.810 --> 00:55:19.111
<v Interviewer>Miller.</v>
<v ->Miller.</v>

1033
00:55:19.111 --> 00:55:20.429
<v Interviewer>General Miller.</v>

1034
00:55:20.429 --> 00:55:21.560
<v ->General Miller, he was a man that went</v>

1035
00:55:22.749 --> 00:55:26.090
and took his expertise from Guantanamo

1036
00:55:26.090 --> 00:55:27.403
cross to have a gripe.

1037
00:55:28.940 --> 00:55:29.910
I thought van well

1038
00:55:29.910 --> 00:55:31.940
if that man's still sanctioning what's happening

1039
00:55:31.940 --> 00:55:34.890
in Abu Ghraib, then I'm pretty sure what happened

1040
00:55:34.890 --> 00:55:37.320
to David was quite correct.

1041
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.090
<v Interviewer>What'd you think about that?</v>

1042
00:55:39.090 --> 00:55:40.270
<v ->Well, I still think,</v>

1043
00:55:40.270 --> 00:55:42.450
I still believe they should have been an investigation,

1044
00:55:42.450 --> 00:55:47.450
a full unbiased investigation into the complaints not to ask

1045
00:55:53.410 --> 00:55:57.490
whether the, to have these investigations

1046
00:55:57.490 --> 00:56:00.670
and then for the American government to say, he look

1047
00:56:00.670 --> 00:56:03.840
what's already been done and there's been nothing happening.

1048
00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:07.660
So, and then you have the events of, as I say

1049
00:56:07.660 --> 00:56:10.090
I have a gripe where I've got five dies

1050
00:56:12.189 --> 00:56:14.087
and they've got gods that have come out

1051
00:56:14.087 --> 00:56:15.431
and said, yes he did.

1052
00:56:15.431 --> 00:56:20.290
We've had gods that looking after Babel in Guantanamo

1053
00:56:20.290 --> 00:56:25.220
that would count money up at one point in with statements

1054
00:56:25.220 --> 00:56:28.980
and everything else that, and all of a sudden

1055
00:56:28.980 --> 00:56:33.410
the United hear them say whether the pressure was put

1056
00:56:33.410 --> 00:56:35.443
on or light on the barrels, spies

1057
00:56:35.443 --> 00:56:37.810
that something untoward could happen with them.

1058
00:56:37.810 --> 00:56:39.510
If they kept that on, I

1059
00:56:39.510 --> 00:56:41.560
we had one gentleman that was supposed to come

1060
00:56:41.560 --> 00:56:44.280
over here and put a statement

1061
00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:48.270
to the media and to the government on David's issues.

1062
00:56:48.270 --> 00:56:53.060
And he didn't come last minute, pulled out.

1063
00:56:53.060 --> 00:56:55.563
We don't know why, I wake and I need some eyes.

1064
00:56:56.610 --> 00:57:01.549
So, that, I believe the torch has happened.

1065
00:57:01.549 --> 00:57:03.340
I still believe there should have been

1066
00:57:03.340 --> 00:57:08.200
an independent investigation, didn't happen.

1067
00:57:08.200 --> 00:57:12.530
So once again, I think the situation comes

1068
00:57:12.530 --> 00:57:14.610
up as let's cover our tracks

1069
00:57:14.610 --> 00:57:18.673
and it'll disappear into the sunset and melon or Nevada.

1070
00:57:20.090 --> 00:57:23.591
<v Interviewer>So I know you went to Guantanamo twice.</v>

1071
00:57:23.591 --> 00:57:26.173
<v ->It was three times.</v>

1072
00:57:26.173 --> 00:57:28.504
<v Interviewer>Could you, do you remember</v>

1073
00:57:28.504 --> 00:57:29.337
the first time you went,

1074
00:57:30.290 --> 00:57:32.980
why you went and what exactly the trip was like?

1075
00:57:32.980 --> 00:57:37.590
<v ->Well, the first time we went,</v>

1076
00:57:37.590 --> 00:57:39.510
was trying to think of what it was about.

1077
00:57:39.510 --> 00:57:44.510
Anyway, first time we went was pretty, pretty hard.

1078
00:57:45.607 --> 00:57:48.087
I didn't realize how far the place was away

1079
00:57:48.087 --> 00:57:53.087
and to get there was pretty awesome as well

1080
00:57:53.680 --> 00:57:58.680
but it was, I think it was 36 hours.

1081
00:58:01.390 --> 00:58:02.993
It took us to finally get to Guantanamo.

1082
00:58:03.847 --> 00:58:05.310
We're not, we weren't allowed

1083
00:58:05.310 --> 00:58:07.930
to the prison system way would I have

1084
00:58:07.930 --> 00:58:11.840
for the first first court case or commission hearings

1085
00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:16.840
as I call them, we had two people that looked after.

1086
00:58:19.510 --> 00:58:23.810
So I had a gentlemen, they've had a

1087
00:58:23.810 --> 00:58:28.533
the lady from wherever she was found, nice paid well

1088
00:58:28.533 --> 00:58:29.950
they had a job to do that

1089
00:58:29.950 --> 00:58:32.420
to make sure that we didn't go on around the place.

1090
00:58:32.420 --> 00:58:35.490
But when we first got there, we went to the hotel there

1091
00:58:35.490 --> 00:58:40.490
and we said, they put up, put us up at the, my hotel.

1092
00:58:42.609 --> 00:58:46.423
The crossroad was the big shop,

1093
00:58:47.350 --> 00:58:50.370
military shop thing there say when went

1094
00:58:50.370 --> 00:58:54.080
out payable disappeared, we saw an old guy for walking

1095
00:58:54.080 --> 00:58:55.930
able to go to the shop, but Nick, same way

1096
00:58:55.930 --> 00:58:59.470
we're colored smack on the hands and said

1097
00:58:59.470 --> 00:59:00.660
next time you ought a guy

1098
00:59:00.660 --> 00:59:03.773
you will ring us and we will take over.

1099
00:59:04.860 --> 00:59:08.151
So I think we did it twice, but when the

1100
00:59:08.151 --> 00:59:13.151
when the commissions fast got up and running

1101
00:59:14.080 --> 00:59:17.420
we were allowed to go and sit in on land.

1102
00:59:17.420 --> 00:59:22.420
They gave us 10, 15 minutes with David first-hand.

1103
00:59:24.356 --> 00:59:26.402
<v Interviewer>Could you describe that?</v>

1104
00:59:26.402 --> 00:59:29.650
<v ->It was pretty emotional.</v>

1105
00:59:29.650 --> 00:59:34.350
He was, it was a shock to us

1106
00:59:34.350 --> 00:59:37.780
because they took us into this well start

1107
00:59:37.780 --> 00:59:41.150
with where they took us stay on this corridor

1108
00:59:41.150 --> 00:59:42.420
which was lined with arm guides.

1109
00:59:42.420 --> 00:59:45.440
And they took us into this room.

1110
00:59:45.440 --> 00:59:48.520
No furniture, just two chairs.

1111
00:59:48.520 --> 00:59:53.210
And the third chair was sitting on a piece of steel

1112
00:59:53.210 --> 00:59:57.880
probably half the size of this mat chair, David sitting

1113
00:59:57.880 --> 01:00:01.316
shackled to the floor, that's ankles and arms.

1114
01:00:01.316 --> 01:00:04.610
Steven Kenny was with us.

1115
01:00:04.610 --> 01:00:09.610
And we weren't happy with the shackling bit, his lot.

1116
01:00:11.070 --> 01:00:13.127
We tried to give it across

1117
01:00:13.127 --> 01:00:15.490
to those people that where's he going to guy to start with?

1118
01:00:15.490 --> 01:00:17.346
What's he gonna do, where he's parents?

1119
01:00:17.346 --> 01:00:22.346
So I did finally take the hand shackles off, which

1120
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:27.910
and allowed us to hug him, shake hands

1121
01:00:27.910 --> 01:00:30.749
and all that sort of thing which was quite good on them.

1122
01:00:30.749 --> 01:00:35.749
But we were listening to, they had the one way panel.

1123
01:00:36.340 --> 01:00:39.257
They watched this all the time, very emotional.

1124
01:00:43.843 --> 01:00:47.700
The first thing, David, when I was

1125
01:00:47.700 --> 01:00:50.740
when we was hanging value really quickly

1126
01:00:50.740 --> 01:00:52.760
very quickly told us that, yes

1127
01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:56.540
he wasn't dealt with in the appropriate manner.

1128
01:00:56.540 --> 01:00:57.809
He was tortured.

1129
01:00:57.809 --> 01:00:59.250
Just tried to get,

1130
01:00:59.250 --> 01:01:01.300
he tried to get as much information afterwards

1131
01:01:01.300 --> 01:01:06.300
as he could without being too observant.

1132
01:01:06.527 --> 01:01:07.703
Wasn't good to hear.

1133
01:01:09.431 --> 01:01:12.870
After that, then we would tag him back out

1134
01:01:12.870 --> 01:01:16.490
and then David was bought into the commission hearing.

1135
01:01:16.490 --> 01:01:20.707
Absolutely shambles didn't eventually it, it was closed.

1136
01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:23.309
And that was it.

1137
01:01:23.309 --> 01:01:27.500
Then I landed to see David again afterwards

1138
01:01:27.500 --> 01:01:29.650
having what the conversation with him.

1139
01:01:29.650 --> 01:01:32.470
And then, but it was just mainly generalization

1140
01:01:32.470 --> 01:01:33.530
that sort of link thing.

1141
01:01:33.530 --> 01:01:37.130
He imparted the information they wanted to get

1142
01:01:37.130 --> 01:01:38.710
across at the stop.

1143
01:01:38.710 --> 01:01:42.783
But, and then next thing we're back on the plane home.

1144
01:01:42.783 --> 01:01:47.393
So he went there long enough.

1145
01:01:50.940 --> 01:01:53.730
It was the first commissions that implied it on itself.

1146
01:01:53.730 --> 01:01:55.740
You had too many people signed.

1147
01:01:55.740 --> 01:01:57.265
It was unfair.

1148
01:01:57.265 --> 01:01:58.269
I'm just system.

1149
01:01:58.269 --> 01:01:59.303
And then pulled out last minute.

1150
01:02:00.260 --> 01:02:01.990
The commissioner then decided

1151
01:02:01.990 --> 01:02:06.189
that it was too odd basket so.

1152
01:02:06.189 --> 01:02:10.269
And each commission went the same way.

1153
01:02:10.269 --> 01:02:13.630
Second time that we were there.

1154
01:02:13.630 --> 01:02:18.577
That was, yeah, the same thing.

1155
01:02:18.577 --> 01:02:21.241
It was just, didn't happen.

1156
01:02:21.241 --> 01:02:23.970
<v Interviewer>Can I go back to the first time,</v>

1157
01:02:23.970 --> 01:02:25.240
this fixed for a moment?

1158
01:02:25.240 --> 01:02:30.240
How did you feel about seeing David after you first saw him?

1159
01:02:30.433 --> 01:02:34.647
<v ->Oh, look, it was when we looked, when we first saw him,</v>

1160
01:02:34.647 --> 01:02:39.647
I think it was the shock numb you didn't really

1161
01:02:41.473 --> 01:02:46.269
know what to really know what to think when there's a

1162
01:02:46.269 --> 01:02:48.780
you know, didn't care who it is, whether it was David

1163
01:02:48.780 --> 01:02:52.189
or whoever to have someone shackled like that.

1164
01:02:52.189 --> 01:02:54.450
But outside of the fact

1165
01:02:54.450 --> 01:02:57.426
that he was tagging through a car at all, that was

1166
01:02:57.426 --> 01:02:59.840
we had plenty of fuel charges, Skype in that applies.

1167
01:02:59.840 --> 01:03:01.671
You wouldn't get out of the door anyway.

1168
01:03:01.671 --> 01:03:06.150
So you had all that laid up and then all of a sudden

1169
01:03:06.150 --> 01:03:08.040
the shock of seeing a person

1170
01:03:08.040 --> 01:03:13.040
like David shackled, then you guys, Jesus

1171
01:03:13.310 --> 01:03:18.310
my bloody Sam boy, buddy, you know, he, he's not hurting

1172
01:03:18.650 --> 01:03:21.530
anybody's said, what the hell was he doing shackled?

1173
01:03:21.530 --> 01:03:24.260
Particularly in that domain, when I say shackled

1174
01:03:24.260 --> 01:03:25.853
it was in that position.

1175
01:03:26.860 --> 01:03:29.270
So you can't sit up.

1176
01:03:29.270 --> 01:03:33.020
He was completely restrained two leg on, sort

1177
01:03:33.020 --> 01:03:38.020
through the loop, hang shackles, to train the leg

1178
01:03:38.333 --> 01:03:42.830
shackles to the loop again.

1179
01:03:42.830 --> 01:03:45.111
And I made him the ring that went through.

1180
01:03:45.111 --> 01:03:45.944
It was huge.

1181
01:03:45.944 --> 01:03:48.357
Say getting a high, but getting away from anything inside.

1182
01:03:48.357 --> 01:03:51.950
And I thought, well, this is absolutely stupid.

1183
01:03:51.950 --> 01:03:55.200
Say we spiked with, we said to Steve and Kenny

1184
01:03:55.200 --> 01:03:58.253
is there any way these blacks are gonna unshackle him.

1185
01:03:59.090 --> 01:04:03.351
He stayed in spite with them and they did allow that

1186
01:04:03.351 --> 01:04:06.173
but they wouldn't undo the leg shackles.

1187
01:04:06.173 --> 01:04:07.840
So at least he could stand.

1188
01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:09.590
And they allowed him to do that.

1189
01:04:09.590 --> 01:04:11.890
And they allowed him to hug him,

1190
01:04:11.890 --> 01:04:13.860
shake hands and that sort of thing.

1191
01:04:13.860 --> 01:04:18.050
So, but the initial shock was, it was a shock.

1192
01:04:18.050 --> 01:04:22.520
It was just, he was just not that

1193
01:04:22.520 --> 01:04:25.050
yeah, this is my son that there.

1194
01:04:25.050 --> 01:04:26.620
<v Interviewer>Do you think he was gonna</v>

1195
01:04:26.620 --> 01:04:28.403
get out at that point?

1196
01:04:30.940 --> 01:04:35.940
<v ->It was no, I wasn't really sure because at that point</v>

1197
01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:42.800
in time there was, does the system was blurred anyway,

1198
01:04:46.630 --> 01:04:49.511
the commissions, there was too many saying

1199
01:04:49.511 --> 01:04:52.890
it's not gonna work as a military commission.

1200
01:04:52.890 --> 01:04:55.330
These are military people you're dealing with

1201
01:04:55.330 --> 01:04:58.400
but they call them illegal combatants, that eyes.

1202
01:04:58.400 --> 01:04:59.410
So it was moving.

1203
01:04:59.410 --> 01:05:01.751
And then once she was in the court, it wasn't a court.

1204
01:05:01.751 --> 01:05:04.733
Anyway, it was a, it wasn't even a proper jury

1205
01:05:04.733 --> 01:05:07.828
but then all of a sudden it just fell apart

1206
01:05:07.828 --> 01:05:10.173
and he's just sort of sitting there

1207
01:05:10.173 --> 01:05:12.269
and then they all went out.

1208
01:05:12.269 --> 01:05:16.320
Then they will come back in and then that was it, finished.

1209
01:05:16.320 --> 01:05:18.100
So I really, and you had the sense

1210
01:05:18.100 --> 01:05:23.100
of what happened and nothing's been achieved,

1211
01:05:25.055 --> 01:05:27.511
I'm not found guilty of anything.

1212
01:05:27.511 --> 01:05:29.591
They haven't found him not guilty of anything.

1213
01:05:29.591 --> 01:05:33.289
The whole system just fell in and collapsed in a heap.

1214
01:05:33.289 --> 01:05:38.289
And it was just to me, it was disbelief that regardless

1215
01:05:40.790 --> 01:05:44.107
of what the American system that they'd set up

1216
01:05:44.107 --> 01:05:46.870
it was completely flouted

1217
01:05:46.870 --> 01:05:50.820
the bloody procedures all together.

1218
01:05:50.820 --> 01:05:55.820
So it just left you in a hall.

1219
01:05:56.820 --> 01:05:58.500
You went in straight away.

1220
01:05:58.500 --> 01:06:00.140
I thought, well, this is gonna go on again.

1221
01:06:00.140 --> 01:06:04.391
And it did, it just, yeah, it was.

1222
01:06:04.391 --> 01:06:07.080
<v Interviewer>So the second time was the same thing?</v>

1223
01:06:07.080 --> 01:06:08.893
<v ->Same thing again, the second time,</v>

1224
01:06:10.721 --> 01:06:15.721
third time was, the third time it was a fast.

1225
01:06:18.216 --> 01:06:23.216
You know, they sacked David's civilian lawyer

1226
01:06:26.230 --> 01:06:29.170
'cause he wouldn't sign a paper was whatever the paper was.

1227
01:06:29.170 --> 01:06:31.660
And I forget, but it was a something to do

1228
01:06:31.660 --> 01:06:35.830
with grants with the military data, that sort of thing.

1229
01:06:35.830 --> 01:06:37.370
But he would, he wouldn't sign it.

1230
01:06:37.370 --> 01:06:40.653
So the second he had my right to speak up,

1231
01:06:41.800 --> 01:06:46.400
the gal that was his assistant

1232
01:06:46.400 --> 01:06:49.130
got the sack that came in.

1233
01:06:49.130 --> 01:06:52.940
There's only one left and David was quite good.

1234
01:06:52.940 --> 01:06:55.210
He just said to us, by as you're gonna sack me

1235
01:06:55.210 --> 01:06:57.210
on the lawyer and leave me with nothing.

1236
01:06:58.711 --> 01:07:01.910
But by then the agreements that are the player,

1237
01:07:01.910 --> 01:07:03.290
play agreements and everything else

1238
01:07:03.290 --> 01:07:05.511
had already been dealt with.

1239
01:07:05.511 --> 01:07:08.989
So David signed all that paperwork for this, but it was,

1240
01:07:08.989 --> 01:07:12.505
and this is why I keep saying it was a fast

1241
01:07:12.505 --> 01:07:16.930
all the paperwork had been done with and everything else.

1242
01:07:16.930 --> 01:07:21.930
Why would you have a procedure that's already dope

1243
01:07:24.120 --> 01:07:24.953
or cycle there?

1244
01:07:24.953 --> 01:07:26.760
Well, the Sage that didn't dealt with her total

1245
01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:27.890
it was David that dealt with it

1246
01:07:27.890 --> 01:07:31.970
with the lawyers and the high commissioner

1247
01:07:31.970 --> 01:07:34.623
or whatever she was at that point for the playback.

1248
01:07:35.471 --> 01:07:37.680
And so it was, to me, it was let our spies

1249
01:07:37.680 --> 01:07:40.629
at the end of the day, after all that, it was comical.

1250
01:07:40.629 --> 01:07:42.751
Yeah. This one sack on that one.

1251
01:07:42.751 --> 01:07:45.600
And that one second on that one, and you had that feeling

1252
01:07:45.600 --> 01:07:47.210
in the back of your mine is one on I get

1253
01:07:47.210 --> 01:07:51.080
out and sack the lot on that's the way it was becoming.

1254
01:07:51.080 --> 01:07:55.370
And yeah, it was such a terrible procedure that

1255
01:07:55.370 --> 01:07:57.193
and I still haven't got it right.

1256
01:07:58.340 --> 01:08:00.820
<v Interviewer>Do you, did you go home with David that,</v>

1257
01:08:00.820 --> 01:08:03.311
from that third trip, could he fly on with you?

1258
01:08:03.311 --> 01:08:04.660
<v ->No, no, no.</v>

1259
01:08:04.660 --> 01:08:07.693
David flew home four or five weeks later.

1260
01:08:11.560 --> 01:08:13.000
'Cause I had to finalize,

1261
01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:15.989
all the paperwork had to be finalized,

1262
01:08:15.989 --> 01:08:19.086
they have to set up with the Australian government to

1263
01:08:19.086 --> 01:08:23.790
for him to serve out his nine months here in Yalla

1264
01:08:25.760 --> 01:08:29.163
which to me was quite strange as well,

1265
01:08:30.810 --> 01:08:32.840
that you've done this playback.

1266
01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:34.770
And then they have to leave a system where you're Bain

1267
01:08:34.770 --> 01:08:37.528
for six years or whatever it was six

1268
01:08:37.528 --> 01:08:38.670
and a half or something.

1269
01:08:38.670 --> 01:08:40.170
And then come all the way back here

1270
01:08:40.170 --> 01:08:41.470
to do another nine months.

1271
01:08:42.431 --> 01:08:44.420
And I thought, well, that's strange

1272
01:08:44.420 --> 01:08:46.906
but that's an Australian government

1273
01:08:46.906 --> 01:08:48.650
at that time was strange anyway,

1274
01:08:48.650 --> 01:08:53.151
that he'd been found guilty of nothing.

1275
01:08:53.151 --> 01:08:55.410
And he's got to come back here

1276
01:08:55.410 --> 01:08:57.850
and sit in a state prison or federal prison

1277
01:08:57.850 --> 01:09:02.850
and also having what they call J division, which is like

1278
01:09:04.310 --> 01:09:08.653
it was used to us, but he's on his own for nine months.

1279
01:09:09.560 --> 01:09:12.207
<v Interviewer>Could you see him when he arrived?</v>

1280
01:09:12.207 --> 01:09:13.267
And he arrived from--

1281
01:09:13.267 --> 01:09:18.267
<v ->No, I spoke with his then lawyer David McCloud.</v>

1282
01:09:20.841 --> 01:09:25.841
And I had a thing I was doing in Sydney

1283
01:09:28.440 --> 01:09:30.770
the day David was arriving

1284
01:09:30.770 --> 01:09:34.750
and his then lawyer had said, look, you might as well go

1285
01:09:34.750 --> 01:09:37.407
to Sydney because you will not see him on that day.

1286
01:09:37.407 --> 01:09:40.730
He'll be picked up from the ref BICE here.

1287
01:09:40.730 --> 01:09:45.730
I've sold spree into the state place wagon

1288
01:09:45.940 --> 01:09:48.010
and it'd squad and straight the prison system.

1289
01:09:48.010 --> 01:09:51.300
And probably possibly be two to three days where

1290
01:09:51.300 --> 01:09:53.560
they delayed even be allowed to see him.

1291
01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:58.560
So I went to Sydney and did my thing over there at Sydney.

1292
01:09:59.129 --> 01:10:03.190
And then I come back that night.

1293
01:10:03.190 --> 01:10:04.549
I think it was.

1294
01:10:04.549 --> 01:10:09.549
And yeah, he was comfortably situated in the prison system.

1295
01:10:10.869 --> 01:10:15.280
We spoke with the prison authorities.

1296
01:10:20.150 --> 01:10:25.150
Nice to find out, but the lawyers already

1297
01:10:26.450 --> 01:10:29.280
had said van that had possibly spent two to three days.

1298
01:10:29.280 --> 01:10:30.440
I think it was.

1299
01:10:30.440 --> 01:10:33.263
And then we had to, it wasn't an automatic thing

1300
01:10:33.263 --> 01:10:36.207
at that time, yet the guy you got to ring the prison

1301
01:10:36.207 --> 01:10:40.447
and make an appointment for visitation

1302
01:10:40.447 --> 01:10:45.447
as per everybody else, which was normal, which is Saturday.

1303
01:10:45.610 --> 01:10:46.560
That's what we did.

1304
01:10:47.500 --> 01:10:50.350
<v Interviewer>And could you see him when you saw him then</v>

1305
01:10:51.189 --> 01:10:52.850
to be seen better to you than he was in time?

1306
01:10:52.850 --> 01:10:56.410
<v ->I think he was glad to be home.</v>

1307
01:10:56.410 --> 01:11:00.927
He was still lost by as you'd call uptight.

1308
01:11:00.927 --> 01:11:05.927
I don't think that really, really, it really hit him

1309
01:11:07.770 --> 01:11:11.349
that he was back,

1310
01:11:11.349 --> 01:11:13.439
I think he still wasn't home?

1311
01:11:13.439 --> 01:11:16.606
He was in jail, in a prison system.

1312
01:11:16.606 --> 01:11:21.606
So I don't think really it hit him at that stage, but yeah

1313
01:11:22.870 --> 01:11:25.410
it wasn't probably countless visits before we started

1314
01:11:25.410 --> 01:11:29.250
on wine and start talking and ask about the berries ones

1315
01:11:29.250 --> 01:11:34.250
and we'll put a list to him who he wanted to say to visit.

1316
01:11:34.751 --> 01:11:36.950
It was quite amazing.

1317
01:11:36.950 --> 01:11:39.024
That system take as fast in best dressed cattle.

1318
01:11:39.024 --> 01:11:42.287
Tom's I've had odd rang up and someone else had rang

1319
01:11:42.287 --> 01:11:47.287
before me then got in and his dad, maybe I should,

1320
01:11:47.327 --> 01:11:50.330
I surely I should have first, but then the guy now,

1321
01:11:50.330 --> 01:11:55.330
if somebody else was bait me to his visitation right.

1322
01:11:56.162 --> 01:11:59.189
<v Interviewer>Was there someone else, immediate person?</v>

1323
01:11:59.189 --> 01:12:01.167
<v ->No, not nine family, different family.</v>

1324
01:12:01.167 --> 01:12:02.389
<v Interviewer>Family.</v>

1325
01:12:02.389 --> 01:12:04.865
<v ->Which was like and we were allowed</v>

1326
01:12:04.865 --> 01:12:08.604
two at a time to go visit.

1327
01:12:08.604 --> 01:12:10.130
So I Bev and myself, those three

1328
01:12:10.130 --> 01:12:13.130
I think it was 'cause bad myself and the daughter were okay.

1329
01:12:16.287 --> 01:12:18.120
My son Vinci sorted out that we do the Sunday morning one

1330
01:12:18.120 --> 01:12:20.570
and then, and we'd ring up Friday and book him.

1331
01:12:20.570 --> 01:12:23.360
And then now those who was

1332
01:12:23.360 --> 01:12:25.810
on David's listen could sorta train themselves

1333
01:12:25.810 --> 01:12:28.160
which other times I went to Sam.

1334
01:12:28.160 --> 01:12:29.670
So I did whack out.

1335
01:12:29.670 --> 01:12:32.149
<v Interviewer>And were you there when he was released?</v>

1336
01:12:32.149 --> 01:12:34.740
<v ->Yes, I was there when he was released.</v>

1337
01:12:34.740 --> 01:12:39.740
Yeah, it was a surface again, the media where they are

1338
01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:48.600
and their drives, of course, the south astronomy place

1339
01:12:49.630 --> 01:12:54.630
were very good, because we had to get David

1340
01:12:55.050 --> 01:12:56.550
out of the system to somewhere

1341
01:12:57.400 --> 01:13:00.410
without the media 'cause the media had the helicopters

1342
01:13:00.410 --> 01:13:02.490
and everything else flitting around the place.

1343
01:13:02.490 --> 01:13:04.677
So they spoke with the IVF people at perifield

1344
01:13:08.580 --> 01:13:10.250
which is just down the ride there.

1345
01:13:10.250 --> 01:13:15.250
And stray in place said, that's it no

1346
01:13:16.170 --> 01:13:20.346
between now flying around between this time, whatever.

1347
01:13:20.346 --> 01:13:25.346
But also they blocked off all the roads

1348
01:13:27.200 --> 01:13:32.200
to the main road side of the media couldn't and no side

1349
01:13:33.781 --> 01:13:35.670
as that situation was happening, the lawyer and myself spoke

1350
01:13:35.670 --> 01:13:38.786
to the media and kept talking as long as we could.

1351
01:13:38.786 --> 01:13:41.070
And then all of a sudden I realized

1352
01:13:41.070 --> 01:13:44.905
that David was on his way.

1353
01:13:44.905 --> 01:13:49.087
Then the place shut off the guy

1354
01:13:49.087 --> 01:13:51.420
and the media couldn't get out.

1355
01:13:51.420 --> 01:13:55.785
And then soon as I had the guy that couldn't,

1356
01:13:55.785 --> 01:13:58.287
as anyone that turned up back here,

1357
01:13:58.287 --> 01:14:01.090
thinking he was here, but he wasn't.

1358
01:14:01.090 --> 01:14:02.584
So we were good.

1359
01:14:02.584 --> 01:14:04.950
I mean, it was a stinger up, family invited the there Blake

1360
01:14:04.950 --> 01:14:07.850
in have a glass of water and said

1361
01:14:07.850 --> 01:14:12.550
bad luck just to let him know that there's not bags here.

1362
01:14:12.550 --> 01:14:14.207
And no David.

1363
01:14:14.207 --> 01:14:15.386
So it worked out.

1364
01:14:15.386 --> 01:14:19.269
Didn't take work that I can say yes,

1365
01:14:19.269 --> 01:14:23.690
it was a pretty traumatic time for David

1366
01:14:24.890 --> 01:14:29.663
and us as well to try and get through the event

1367
01:14:30.610 --> 01:14:31.860
of getting him out of the

1368
01:14:32.890 --> 01:14:35.723
'cause once he walked out the front door, he was on his own

1369
01:14:36.882 --> 01:14:38.328
but the place were very good.

1370
01:14:38.328 --> 01:14:40.499
They did fire lines for the traffic side of that.

1371
01:14:40.499 --> 01:14:43.390
The vehicle that was taken, David had a clear run

1372
01:14:43.390 --> 01:14:48.390
and then they did their bit, they flipped it into one place.

1373
01:14:49.160 --> 01:14:52.130
Now they changed from cars to motor bikes.

1374
01:14:52.130 --> 01:14:54.820
And that went everywhere and, you know

1375
01:14:54.820 --> 01:14:58.426
giant font tactics with my, and was funny.

1376
01:14:58.426 --> 01:15:01.410
But then the media never caught

1377
01:15:01.410 --> 01:15:03.550
up with him, which was--

1378
01:15:03.550 --> 01:15:05.140
<v Interviewer>I don't, I'm almost done.</v>

1379
01:15:05.140 --> 01:15:07.653
Do you have any question?

1380
01:15:08.760 --> 01:15:11.270
I did wanna just ask you looking back now,

1381
01:15:11.270 --> 01:15:13.060
it's been 10 years.

1382
01:15:13.060 --> 01:15:17.110
What would you say about America

1383
01:15:17.110 --> 01:15:19.967
and about Australia and the legal systems?

1384
01:15:19.967 --> 01:15:22.666
Do you have any thoughts

1385
01:15:22.666 --> 01:15:25.203
about now that you you've observed so personally?

1386
01:15:26.123 --> 01:15:30.070
<v ->Well, it's probably a difficult question to answer</v>

1387
01:15:30.070 --> 01:15:34.840
but I suppose, because before it all happened

1388
01:15:34.840 --> 01:15:39.280
I wasn't media savvy, I suppose you'd call it.

1389
01:15:39.280 --> 01:15:43.860
I definitely wasn't politically minded

1390
01:15:43.860 --> 01:15:45.450
and that I'll just let them get

1391
01:15:45.450 --> 01:15:48.506
on with their job and I'll do mine.

1392
01:15:48.506 --> 01:15:53.506
But after the 10 years I find, what do I call it?

1393
01:15:58.390 --> 01:16:02.130
It's like taking off your blinkers, like a horse.

1394
01:16:02.130 --> 01:16:04.940
They put, they put blinkers on a horse for a reason.

1395
01:16:04.940 --> 01:16:08.150
Say, I can economically say straight ahead.

1396
01:16:08.150 --> 01:16:08.983
I wouldn't take them

1397
01:16:08.983 --> 01:16:11.800
off all of a sudden, oh my God, there's other things around.

1398
01:16:11.800 --> 01:16:14.069
And this is my perception.

1399
01:16:14.069 --> 01:16:17.010
I took the blinkers off and then went, oh

1400
01:16:17.010 --> 01:16:22.010
hang on a minute, God, this is how the system works.

1401
01:16:22.186 --> 01:16:27.186
And ham, I going to incorporate myself and other people

1402
01:16:27.550 --> 01:16:32.079
into that system without I suppose

1403
01:16:32.079 --> 01:16:35.749
rocking the boat too much.

1404
01:16:35.749 --> 01:16:38.447
But then as I say, once a blink is off.

1405
01:16:38.447 --> 01:16:40.900
You don't care what boat you're rock

1406
01:16:40.900 --> 01:16:45.070
because you try and do the job

1407
01:16:45.070 --> 01:16:48.130
the best of you as you can on people's human rights.

1408
01:16:48.130 --> 01:16:51.823
I mean, I suppose over the years, it became not only David

1409
01:16:51.823 --> 01:16:56.287
they became aware of what's happening to people overseas

1410
01:16:56.287 --> 01:16:59.367
and how they're being treated by governments and here

1411
01:16:59.367 --> 01:17:04.367
how the government look on there and a dozen items

1412
01:17:05.990 --> 01:17:10.350
your eyes, the Americans in science situation

1413
01:17:10.350 --> 01:17:13.007
where they comments I would take in the war.

1414
01:17:13.007 --> 01:17:15.644
A lot of them didn't want to.

1415
01:17:15.644 --> 01:17:20.644
The Australian government was sucked along in the process.

1416
01:17:20.650 --> 01:17:25.650
You know, you had the cycle wall business

1417
01:17:25.660 --> 01:17:27.290
and the weapons of mass destruction

1418
01:17:27.290 --> 01:17:29.280
which they never ever found.

1419
01:17:29.280 --> 01:17:31.880
And I think it was an excuse

1420
01:17:31.880 --> 01:17:34.920
that the Americans had to do it

1421
01:17:34.920 --> 01:17:37.680
that the show them flex the muscles

1422
01:17:37.680 --> 01:17:39.240
I suppose you'd call it.

1423
01:17:39.240 --> 01:17:42.300
The Australians went along the same system decide, well

1424
01:17:42.300 --> 01:17:43.908
we're right behind you.

1425
01:17:43.908 --> 01:17:45.310
'Cause we're friends of yours.

1426
01:17:45.310 --> 01:17:48.570
And I, over that past 10 years,

1427
01:17:48.570 --> 01:17:53.570
I could start to see in that time, how people meld

1428
01:17:54.250 --> 01:17:59.250
in these positions to make it look right to them

1429
01:18:00.261 --> 01:18:03.400
that other people then on the other side

1430
01:18:03.400 --> 01:18:05.909
of the fence can look over and go, well, that's not right.

1431
01:18:05.909 --> 01:18:10.909
These are people's lives are playing with, you know,

1432
01:18:11.710 --> 01:18:16.710
it's sad that we have many soldiers that were killed

1433
01:18:16.750 --> 01:18:21.750
in that cycle war of nothing, nothing's been resolved.

1434
01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:27.870
So I suppose it just gives you an Ivo perception

1435
01:18:27.870 --> 01:18:28.703
that you know,

1436
01:18:28.703 --> 01:18:32.780
really our world at the moment, not good.

1437
01:18:32.780 --> 01:18:36.510
And just how we just go.

1438
01:18:36.510 --> 01:18:38.591
I just hope there's people out there that have there

1439
01:18:38.591 --> 01:18:42.053
that if anything happens the same as what happened with us

1440
01:18:42.053 --> 01:18:45.173
they have that resolve to get out and try and change things.

1441
01:18:45.173 --> 01:18:48.700
Because I think what happens is it makes people more aware

1442
01:18:48.700 --> 01:18:52.853
of people's circumstances, human rights issues,

1443
01:18:52.853 --> 01:18:55.907
just the general world in general

1444
01:18:55.907 --> 01:18:59.290
that it's at the moment I've seen term wall.

1445
01:18:59.290 --> 01:19:00.343
And it's my trust.

1446
01:19:02.226 --> 01:19:04.350
<v ->Well, I wanna thank you.</v>

1447
01:19:04.350 --> 01:19:05.183
We, oh man.

1448
01:19:05.183 --> 01:19:07.231
Luis has one question.

1449
01:19:07.231 --> 01:19:10.650
<v Moderator>Do you and Dave, if you wouldn't mind,</v>

1450
01:19:10.650 --> 01:19:12.293
keep looking at Peter,

1451
01:19:12.293 --> 01:19:16.723
do you and David have discussions now about politics and

1452
01:19:17.560 --> 01:19:22.560
about philosophy in ways has that you maybe didn't before,

1453
01:19:22.709 --> 01:19:26.453
has your relationship with him changed?

1454
01:19:28.789 --> 01:19:30.010
You had to--

1455
01:19:30.010 --> 01:19:34.240
<v ->It is strange to say that because I have noticed</v>

1456
01:19:34.240 --> 01:19:37.333
with David's at the Miami is perception with governments

1457
01:19:37.333 --> 01:19:42.333
and other events, you spoke with David earlier.

1458
01:19:44.911 --> 01:19:49.329
He has a very good perspective on events

1459
01:19:49.329 --> 01:19:54.329
which actually surprised me because when he was young

1460
01:19:54.470 --> 01:19:56.830
he had no interest in that sort of thing.

1461
01:19:56.830 --> 01:19:59.173
But now with all the events that have happened

1462
01:19:59.173 --> 01:20:00.440
and what he's been through

1463
01:20:00.440 --> 01:20:04.410
he's become very aware of governments and other governments.

1464
01:20:04.410 --> 01:20:07.631
We don't sit and talk politics the way he talks

1465
01:20:07.631 --> 01:20:12.631
about different things that align with politics.

1466
01:20:13.253 --> 01:20:18.253
I find him very aware weld laws yeah, right.

1467
01:20:25.470 --> 01:20:27.910
God, I said to David the other day, one night to go

1468
01:20:27.910 --> 01:20:30.613
to university and study law, you know enough now.

1469
01:20:30.613 --> 01:20:35.613
So his, I suppose, in all this time that he's been in cash.

1470
01:20:37.071 --> 01:20:40.930
And everything else, he's he's few times out

1471
01:20:40.930 --> 01:20:42.730
like when he was in Guantanamo bay

1472
01:20:42.730 --> 01:20:44.350
he managed to finish his

1473
01:20:44.350 --> 01:20:46.703
'cause he didn't do you do year 12,

1474
01:20:47.910 --> 01:20:49.551
did that pass my worries?

1475
01:20:49.551 --> 01:20:54.430
Took up a lot of different ratings of what he could,

1476
01:20:54.430 --> 01:20:59.430
he's become fully aware of politics

1477
01:20:59.620 --> 01:21:03.203
and how it works and how it can work against you.

1478
01:21:04.100 --> 01:21:08.340
Hey, probably hopefully try and turn it to help.

1479
01:21:08.340 --> 01:21:12.840
Not only himself, but I was say merits.

1480
01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:17.471
And I think we're closer than what we were before.

1481
01:21:17.471 --> 01:21:19.670
You know, when David was young, though

1482
01:21:20.991 --> 01:21:22.533
we did have our differences.

1483
01:21:22.533 --> 01:21:25.803
He'd played up along the line.

1484
01:21:25.803 --> 01:21:27.720
I've all young blokes did in those days.

1485
01:21:27.720 --> 01:21:32.137
But I think now, I suppose, I don't know whether it's

1486
01:21:34.070 --> 01:21:35.900
because of what we've done for him,

1487
01:21:35.900 --> 01:21:38.634
whether he now has more respect,

1488
01:21:38.634 --> 01:21:42.210
but we are close and we can talk

1489
01:21:42.210 --> 01:21:47.210
on different issues as best as we know to out loud knowledge

1490
01:21:47.660 --> 01:21:49.550
on different things.

1491
01:21:49.550 --> 01:21:52.870
But of course his prizes may have, has how away areas

1492
01:21:52.870 --> 01:21:56.960
of issues that are happening around the place.

1493
01:21:56.960 --> 01:21:58.630
And I don't know whether that's good or bad

1494
01:21:58.630 --> 01:22:02.873
but I think at least he's more aware of what's happening.

1495
01:22:08.530 --> 01:22:10.630
<v Interviewer>So you, you see him often.</v>

1496
01:22:11.550 --> 01:22:14.554
<v ->At the moment, then these ivory from Sydney.</v>

1497
01:22:14.554 --> 01:22:19.554
So he's not far away so I call him for coffee

1498
01:22:19.860 --> 01:22:21.170
and have a chat.

1499
01:22:21.170 --> 01:22:26.170
And then we spent two days setting up his laptop to get him

1500
01:22:27.970 --> 01:22:32.060
on the internet and the email, and might get easier

1501
01:22:32.060 --> 01:22:34.591
for contact with his lawyers, that sort of anxiety.

1502
01:22:34.591 --> 01:22:39.311
But I think probably in the next few days

1503
01:22:39.311 --> 01:22:41.361
it'll be thinking back on back to Sydney.

1504
01:22:43.110 --> 01:22:45.470
<v Interviewer>Well, I, if there's nothing else</v>

1505
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I want to thank you

1506
01:22:46.337 --> 01:22:49.690
but we need to take 20 seconds of quiet time where Johnny

1507
01:22:49.690 --> 01:22:54.074
the Filmmaker just needs to film 20 seconds.

1508
01:22:54.074 --> 01:22:54.907
<v ->Yeah.</v>

1509
01:22:56.830 --> 01:22:58.163
<v Johnny>Begin Room Tone.</v>

1510
01:23:16.831 --> 01:23:18.234
End Room Tone.

1511
01:23:18.234 --> 01:23:19.067
<v ->That was great.</v>

1512
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That was really interesting.
<v Hicks>Thank you.</v>