Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I tell you another interesting about Hayti. Those buildings were built by fraternal organizations. And there were about four buildings down there, multi-story buildings that were built by fraternal organizations. Around this time that this book was published, they probably had been changed hands, and I don't believe any large group owned the building at this time.
Paul Ortiz: These were Black lodges, correct?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah, uh-huh. You don't have a picture of Fayetteville Street, do you? An old Picture Fayetteville Street? There are some pictures of it.
Paul Ortiz: No.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Now I know the Arts Council has some pictures of old Fayetteville Street. I know they had an exhibit down the down there. And maybe Hayti, the heritage center, they may have some pictures. But I know that the Arts Council has pictures of Old Fayetteville Street. So those large buildings down there, multi-story buildings, were built by fraternal organizations. And my thinking is that those fraternal organizations were the real basis for establishment of North Carolina Mutual. It's sort of a idea of taking care of your own, which was in 1898 that they were founded.
Paul Ortiz: Oh. Speaking of taking care of your own, Mr. White, I was wondering, were there things that Black business people did in 1938 to encourage Black residents to shop in Black establishments?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh, yeah. We had the Durham Business & Professional Chain, an organization, was organized in 1938 by James Jackson Henderson. We call him J.J. Henderson. He's still living, by the way. He's not too well at this time. But he organized that. Now, there's a little story behind that. They had the National Negro Business League. And Mr. Spaulding, in '38, was the president of the national, before they had a local chapter. And I've been intending to ask Mr. Henderson about this. My guess is that, while he was president, Mr. Spaulding, a very prominent business person, I know you have things about him, as president of the national felt the need to have a local chapter. I don't want to quote him without knowing the facts. I said I was going to ask Mr. Henderson. My thinking is that he came down, and being Mr. Henderson's boss, he just made a suggestion to him that might be a good project for him to carry out.
Paul Ortiz: I see.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And—
Paul Ortiz: What kind of projects would the Chain do?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, they had what they call a Trade Week, where they asked people to pay special attentions to the Black businesses and call attention to. They had a parade, which was more or less cooperating with North Carolina colleges homecoming. And they had floats in the parade. Mrs. DeShazor was head of the Housewives' League. And the Housewives' League, one of its goals was sponsoring the patronage of Black businesses. And they asked you during that week to do all your buying from Black businesses. And it was quite a real boost. They had what they call a booster dinner. Mr. Henderson had the leadership role in that organization, and that was one of their projects.
Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, was there some concern that some Black residents of Durham were not loyal or were not patronizing Black businesses, that they might have wanted to perhaps go to A&P to try to save a dime here and there?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Let me see. They had an A&P store in Hayti. You know that, didn't you?
Paul Ortiz: Yes, sir.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: So I think there was an encouragement to buy, but I don't think anybody, that store sitting right there, would be severely criticize the person for going in that store.
Paul Ortiz: Oh, they wouldn't be or would be?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I don't think that though. Well, I can't really say, because I have to go back into a memory of that. But I don't think that it was that kind of a situation, because this was something they encourage you to buy from the Black grocery store that's there. I don't know. I don't know. I can't—And I'll say my mind don't go back to a situation where they would stand out in front of the A&P telling people, "Don't go in here. Go across the street." But the idea was to do all the buying that you can from the Blacks during that time. Yeah, so it was a good project.
Paul Ortiz: Would the Durham Business & Professional Chain—Did they have a relationship with the A&P or other White businesses? Or was there much—
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't see what that relationship would be. I mean, I think they would know them and all, but I don't even think that probably was in discussion between the owners of the A&P with the Durham Business & Professional Chain. We did a newspaper for them too at [indistinct 00:08:14]. I don't know where you might find some copies of that though. They ought be somewhere around.
Paul Ortiz: Oh, do you remember the title of it?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I believe it—Let's see. I can't remember. I think it was something like The Chain. I can't remember what that title of that was.
Paul Ortiz: But it was a periodical?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: It was just done on special occasions, because that organization wouldn't do a competitive newspaper, because they would look at the Carolina Times as the Black newspaper.
Paul Ortiz: Oh, okay.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: This was more or less like, what do you call it, a house organ. This is an official organ of the—
Paul Ortiz: A booster organ?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes, of the Chain.
Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, you mentioned the Carolina Times. And I was wondering, considering your earlier experience in journalism, what kind of relationship did Service have with the Times?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh, at one time, for a period of several years, we printed the Carolina Times for Mr. Austin. L.E. Austin was the editor. And we had a lot of respect for him and his newspaper, his editorial writings. He was a terrific writer campaigning for rights, and he campaigned against injustices that are directed towards the Black community and encouraging participating in politics and active in citizenship and helping to uplift the community. And he was a terrific writer. I mean he was outstanding. I mean that would be a whole history in itself, if anybody preserve, or if the library had films or copies of that newspaper. He was a leading campaign for rights against any wrong done to the community, any mishandling of the duties by the police or anybody like that. The Carolina Times was really a spokesman for equality.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And I think Mr. Austin is an example, L.E. Austin, Louis Austin, of what was a very valuable resource in the Black community. I call him a natural. I don't think any record will show that he went to school to learn how to edit the newspaper. But that seemed to be his natural talent for him, not only in publishing a newspaper and writing editorials, but also speaking and addressing the community on wrongs that were being perpetrated against Black citizens and all. I mean, he was really an outspoken—He was a fireball writer and everything. The community seemed to be blessed with people of that character. Mr. Spaulding, who was president of North Carolina Mutual said the only time he went to college was to give a commencement address.
Paul Ortiz: Oh, okay.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: An outstanding business person.
Paul Ortiz: Who would you say were other people of that character? Who would you put in that class?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, I think later on following these people, of course, you had people that they themselves invited in to come and help, was not the same as inviting a college-trained person for a particular job, as one that was doing a job without that kind of training. So they were also smart enough to invite people in to help them. Of course, Mr. Austin was difficult to help, but Mr. Spaulding was just the opposite when it came to help. They got a whole—Just like I mentioned David Henderson, he was a college graduate. Following these people like C.C. Spaulding, they had also the wisdom to bring in people who had specific training then to make the business stronger and make sure that it would survive.
Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, I wanted to ask you about—Actually, the person who told us that we needed to interview you was Mr. Kelly Bryant.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Right, mm-hmm.
Paul Ortiz: And could you tell me how you first met Mr. Bryant? And what kind of relationship—
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I met him while he was at Hampton. I was at Hampton Institute. I was probably about three years ahead of him at Hampton. And at that time, it was more just like meeting another student. And I didn't have no idea that we would end up in the same town. He came here shortly after I did, but he also had relatives here. And his home is in Rocky Mount. So the Hampton alumni has a regular organization in the city. So we came together in the Hampton alumni. I also recruited him to work with the Boy Scouts, and he accepted the leadership as Scoutmaster of one of the Scout troops and remained Scoutmaster over 30 years, really. He out distanced me in that. I think I got a few more Eagle Scouts than he did. But I had a church to work with, and he had a school. He worked with Burton School, and my Scout troop was at White Rock. So I had more ready help and more boys that—But I did make a speech at his banquet, and I told those boys, "If I was going to John the Scout troop now, I'd join his." Yeah.
Paul Ortiz: He was a person who was involved in—You mentioned earlier fraternal organizations. And I think he was a person who was really involved in the fraternal.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Absolutely. And now he's the grand secretary of the Masons in North Carolina. Actually now, after he retired from North Carolina Mutual, he went to work for the lodge.
Paul Ortiz: Do you know his son?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes, I do. Yeah. Not really close up, but I know of him.
Paul Ortiz: Kelly Bryant Jr.?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah, uh-huh. He adopted two children, a girl and a boy. I give him a lot of credit for that. In fact, I encouraged him to do that. When you get old, when you don't have any children, you looking at the end, it's tough. And he'd done it quite well. And his daughter went to Hampton University. And she's a speech therapist, and she lives here now. She was working in Raleigh, but she works for a firm that hires a speech therapist. She's quite well-trained and all. So she adopted a little girl too. She followed her parents, that part of her parents that adopted her and her brother.
Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, one of the things I wanted to talk to you a little more about today was actually was your experience in Scouting and being a part of one of the very early Black Scouting groups?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh, yeah. I joined Scouting in Norfolk, Virginia, the town that I grew up in. And this is the story about my troop that I was a Scout. And there I am up there. If I hadn't known I was going to be half hidden, I'd probably stood a little taller. But there were 16 Scouts in this troop. And I have three brothers, and four of us joined the troop. Now my oldest brother—We had a discussion on this. This is a picture that was made in 1928. And that's my brother next to me, and this is our youngest brother right there.
Paul Ortiz: And the brother next to you, his name?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: His name is John Isaac. And this one's name is George, after my father George Daniel. And this picture was made in 1928. And my oldest brother was trying to figure out what happened that he wasn't on that picture. And we concluded that he had gone to New York by that time. That was probably made in the summer of 1928.
Paul Ortiz: Now this gentleman over here?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: He's the Scoutmaster.
Paul Ortiz: Okay. His name was?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Maceo Johnson
Paul Ortiz: Maceo Johnson. Did your parents know him?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes, they knew him, yeah. Now, my mother was dead at this time. She died in 1919. She left four children under 10. And she asked my aunt, who was my father's sister, to keep the family together. And she's dedicated herself to that and sent two of us to college. And this troop sort of influenced me. I decided in 1942 that I would give something back, and I have volunteered to be Scoutmaster. I served 26 years as a Scoutmaster of Troop 55 at White Rock Baptist Church. 26 of my boys attained the Eagle rank. And I'm still trying to give something back. So I have about, I think the last time I checked up on them, was over 60 years experience in Scouting. And I'm trying to find somebody to take my place now. If you interview anybody looking for a Scout job, let me know.
Paul Ortiz: It will be difficult to fill your shoes.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well—
Paul Ortiz: Starting out as a Scoutmaster in 1942, what were the race relations in the BSA, Boy Scouts of America?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Actually it was separated in the racial. In other words, the Black troops had their own executive. And they went to a different camp from the White. So we actually organized to make a point that we should be with Scouts, and Scouts shouldn't have that kind of a division. So we work together now. But at that time, we had our own executive. And to some extent in terms of numbers of boys, I don't think we have as many active Scouts as we had when we had our own group. Kind of hard to explain really. I think the year before we organized, came together, we had over a hundred boys in camp. And that was a long time ago. I don't think we've had that many Black youth going to camp since the—It's hard to explain, but I can't say why that happened and why it's still happening.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: At this time we have more Scout executives. In fact we have top leaders in the Scouts. I think the field director is an African American person. And then we have a couple of more in the council. Occoneechee Council is our council. And I'm still wrestling with the fact that—And even now in our church unit, I guess a lot depends on the individual Scout leaders. And I hate to say that. But we lost ours in our church. We lost our Scout leader. He got a job in South Carolina in Greenville, and then he moved to Atlanta. And it seems to be on an individual basis. And just like anything else in life, some are good and not quite as good as others.
Paul Ortiz: But in 1942, what would you say brought young Black children into the Scouts?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I think it was the executive. We had an executive. He was very good. His name was Henry Gillis, and he went to Washington as a Scout executive. And he's retired in Washington. He was very unusual. He understood how to work with people, and he understood what it would take to get the movement going. And he did a very excellent job. Those that held back, didn't live up the standard, he worked with them and made a top-flight situation.
Paul Ortiz: Was there a sense in the '40s that being in a Black troop was part of—You had a sense of race pride in a Black troop?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, those troops, most of the institutions, and the institution themselves, are mostly just like churches. And even now today, you don't have—You have some churches that come together. So that's a part of reality. But now, they're coming together at a council or district level, we don't have this separation. But it is just one of those things that's difficult to explain that why you would actually have more boys in '42 than you have in '95.
Paul Ortiz: Do you think part of it, you were saying the institution, could have been White Rock and the supportive culture and White Rock for Scouting at the time?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I think the support that you have, but it is sort of based on the individual that you have. When I started as Scoutmaster in '42, we had three troops. We had White Rock, St. Mark, and St. Joseph. And I think they have more in numbers than they had then. I don't know whether the Scouting has a draw for our units. Scouting is absolutely a very good program. There's no question about it. In fact, Scouting is a program that'll take a young boy at 11, just when he is beginning to think in terms of outside of the home, and it gives him a sort of entryway into a unit with people and all, that really can have a very definite, precise influence on his life. I mean a healthy influence. And in fact, if you want to look at it like that time is coming, when he's going to be leaving home anyhow, and it's like helping preparing him for that time. And it's also helping the parent to help them develop the child to the extent that he can get ready for what's on the outside of the home.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And it's a mechanism that's used a lot. And I have thought about it that maybe some groups understand that more than others, and that it's a helping hand. I had a situation, fine home. The father worked at North Carolina Mutual, and the mother was a school teacher. There was two boys in the troop. When the wintertime came, they stopped coming to the meeting. And I had a system, when I was in Scoutmaster, if I had a problem, if I wanted to get a boy to go to camp or want to go on a jamboree or something, then, if necessary, I would go right to the home and talk with the mother and the father about it.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I had one Scout who had—It was three brothers. And when a boy gets a certain ages, like 14 or 15, he's sort of looking at the girls then. And you know you can talk all you want to about how, "This is good for you. You going to need this later on in life," it won't mean a thing to him if his head is turned around wrong way. So I went to the home and talked to him. Well the father said, "I know what's out there. I've been out there and everything. And it's not all it should be." The mother said, "Well, I'm working. I'm tired and all and everything. And I got those things to think about." I said, "Well, let me tell you something. We can teach him how to go now. And I can't guarantee you that he won't be playing up and down the street, plucking each other on the heads, stopping by the store and buying candy and buying sodas and this kind of thing." I said, "I can't even guarantee you that he won't get hurt. I am not going to tell you he might not get hurt. But I can tell you one thing. We can teach him how to come and go now, but when he gets 16 he's going whether he knows how to go or not."
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And they bought it. One was nice tender little boy, who wouldn't look like he wouldn't hurt a flea, if anybody had told me he was going to be a commissioned officer—His rank went way up. He went into the Army. They were drafting people then. I would've bet anything that that boy would never be an officer in the Army. Then the other young man joined the State Department and went to Hawaii. He married a Hawaiian girl, and both of them doing real fine. Both of the parents are gone now. But they got it made. It's just a sort of understanding what it's all about.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And I'm not sure that maybe the fact that it stayed segregated so long that we lost all those years trying to learn about it. Now this troop was a first troop in Norfolk, Virginia, 1928. I don't know what the Scouting program is like up there now, but they got a whole history of it. And maybe the fact that it was segregated so long, because Scouting started in 1910 in America, that it stayed segregated so long that we just haven't taken on to it. And I understand that to some extent. Boys kid boys, who join the Scouts, other boys. And what they say to them and all, I don't, I'm not acquainted with, but that might have some effect on it. But you do have some division there.
Paul Ortiz: Now, the discussion you had with parents of the children you were talking about sounded really vivid and really—
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh yeah.
Paul Ortiz: Were there other interactions like that you'd have with parents where you would try to intervene?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh, yeah. I had one boy that his brother—Now, his brother teaches at Central. We were talking about going on a jamboree trip, and he didn't want to go. And I tried. I said, "Well your brother went. Maybe you should go." So I talked him into going, just somehow or another just convinced him he ought to go. And of course, I talked with his parents, because his father was a Scout leader himself. That person there was a school principal. He was a Scout leader. And that boy went to that trip. And he liked it so, so much that there was a trip that they were looking for a young man to go to Paris in a conference, older boys, some kind of conference for a worldwide conference. So he went to that trip. Now, I can't think about the number of years, but, let's see, this is '42. No, this is this '40—
Paul Ortiz: Oh, that's a program or is it a—
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: It's a dedication to this boy's father that I'm talking about now. So he's a missionary now. That's a young man that had to talk him into going on a trip, that didn't want to go, that he's a missionary and a teacher over in Italy. And he got his PhD degree. And I guess he going to retire in that job.
Paul Ortiz: This is a picture of the 1960 Scout [indistinct 00:36:32]—
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah, that's it, White Rock. That was the church before we moved from—We were in on Fayetteville Street at that time. And—
Paul Ortiz: What were the jamborees like?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: They were very fascinating, because you can get more on a trip like that than you can a year in the program, going to meetings and all. You meet boys from all over the country, and they talking to you and checking you out to see if you got a badge on you. And they going to start talking to you about it, see if you really earned that badge and how much you know. I say a jamboree is worth for year of going to Scout meetings. And my theory was, "You can't be anymore than you can see. If you go see it, then you have a better chance of trying to be what you see."
Paul Ortiz: Were the jamborees back then—Was it an all Black jamboree or—
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Now that was the thing that—Oh, I got a picture of a jamboree troop. They were mixed. They were mixed. And we had a problem on a jamboree in '60. We went to on the '60, and some of the White boys didn't want—We were supposed to sleep in the gymnasium, and some of the White boys didn't want to do that. And they read the riot act on them. They told them, "Either you sleep in this gym, or you go back on home on the bus." And they slept on—They didn't have no problem after that.
Paul Ortiz: Who was they?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: That was the—See, what happened was it was five troops that we—They actually had a Black troop, but it wasn't all just Durham. It was the Occoneechee Council troop. But when we traveled on—We had a separate bus. But when we come to the area that was the camping area, it broke down. We were together. So this night that we stopped in this town, we stayed in a gymnasium. So that meant that we all came together in this gymnasium. So there was some objection raised to us coming together. And they just told them that they would either they'd have to stay there or they were going to put them on the bus and send them back home.
Paul Ortiz: It was the executive council that said that?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes, that's right. See, it was five different units, and under the Occoneechee Council, yeah. But they go to camp there in the summertime. All that stuff is over now. They all go. If you in a unit, you go with your unit. But certain things they do together. I got that picture in here somewhere, one of them I can give you one of these—
Paul Ortiz: Oh, that would be wonderful.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: —yeah, to show you the history of it. I think it's the 40th year that—See, we had the advantage of—By me being a printer, I could print this stuff for free. And we had a chance to get some good records.
Paul Ortiz: Ah, some familiar names.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Say what?
Paul Ortiz: Familiar names, Mr. And Mrs. W.A. Clement.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh, yeah. Oh, I see, yeah. Oh, I was saying something about his son. He got three sons. I didn't get to tell you the whole story. But I had a way of, when the boys getting ready to get that Eagle Badge, they got different ideas in their head. And his son was kind of slipping a little bit. So I went and talked to Bill about it. I tell, "You all going to get this Eagle Badge." Well, they would get down to a point where they have two or three little things that they had to do, and he started looking at the girls and all that. His head is turned the wrong way. So I just told him. I said, "You are going to get it." I said, "I think if we can get him to get the Eagle Badge, we won't have to worry about the other two." And he had three boys and three Eagle Scouts in his home. And they did real well.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: That's one they had dedicated to me. I want to find that jamboree troop. I got it in here somewhere.
Paul Ortiz: Those are great pictures.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh, yeah.
Paul Ortiz: A lot of history in these programs.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes, uh-huh. That 40th year, it has a history up until that time. Got all the names, this one. You got the 40 one?
Paul Ortiz: I have the 35.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: 35 and 40 about the same. But that one has a real—It has all the names, all the Eagle Scouts, and the ones that made the trips. Well, I had the advantage I could get printing free. That program probably cost over a whole hundred dollars, this here. And—
Shavonna Maxwell: When did they begin the Girl Scout troops, the Brownie troops and that sort of thing?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Boy Scout?
Shavonna Maxwell: For the Girl Scouts.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Girl Scouts.
Shavonna Maxwell: When did they start doing that?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: What you mean, generally? What you talking about? In my church, or what you talking about? The actual organization of Girl Scout?
Shavonna Maxwell: No, actually in your church.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah. This, see the Girl Scouts on the bottom there? That tells you. It gives you the date.
Shavonna Maxwell: Okay.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah. I just really wanted to you to see that jamboree in '60. I don't even see that one of those pictures anywhere. But we had a picture of that troop in 1960. And I guess we talking were about difference in all the Black troops and the others. It's kind of like a personal kind of thing with the church and organization. If you don't have the people in there that do the job, it's just one of the things you're going to not come up to par with.
Paul Ortiz: So you took over for Joseph A. Christmas?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes, uh-huh. He went to Hawaii. And I think he's still living. Well, one advantage of this church is they had a minister who was really interested in youth. In fact, he had some programs in the church that they didn't have in this city for boys, Reverend Miles Mark Fisher.
Paul Ortiz: Uh-huh. What kind of programs did they have in the church?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: He had a community center and a softball team, ping-pong team, basketball team that organized league. Some people said before the city had organized league, so he was very progressive. He came out of Atlanta, but he went to school in Chicago, got his PhD in Chicago.
Paul Ortiz: I see. Mr. White, I'm going to have to run out to my car and get another tape.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Okay.
Paul Ortiz: Shavonna, do you want to take over? I'll go out and get a tape?
Shavonna Maxwell: [indistinct 00:49:24].
Paul Ortiz: And I can just buzz in the back door?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I think—
Paul Ortiz: Or is it open?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: It's probably open. Let me see. That door right there is open still, isn't it?
Paul Ortiz: Oh, okay.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah, it's open. If you have any problems, just leave the door open so we can hear you knock. I don't think you have to knock though.
Paul Ortiz: Yeah.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: So what is your deal here? You in school too?
Shavonna Maxwell: Actually, I just graduated a couple weeks ago.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh, is that right? So what you going to do now?
Shavonna Maxwell: I'm taking a couple years off, and then I'm going to go on grad school.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Don't take too much time off now. Your mind will get lazy on you.
Shavonna Maxwell: Oh, actually the type of work that I'll be doing is still academic, so.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh. Oh, I see. Where will you be working?
Shavonna Maxwell: I have two options right now, either be working with The Institute for Women's Study up in DC working on urban issues and that sort of thing, particularly housing and job opportunities.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh, yeah, write your name down here for me, so I can at least remember it.
Shavonna Maxwell: Okay.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: So where'd you finish school?
Shavonna Maxwell: Duke.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: At Duke?
Shavonna Maxwell: Yes.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: My son was with the first group of Blacks at Duke.
Shavonna Maxwell: Oh, really?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Uh-huh. '63.
Shavonna Maxwell: So it'd be '63, [indistinct 00:50:47] guess he graduated in '67 then.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah. Oh, you know about the date?
Shavonna Maxwell: Yeah. Yeah, actually—
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah, he's Junior. You've seen that story on him? You heard about him?
Shavonna Maxwell: Yeah.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: You read it?
Shavonna Maxwell: Read it [indistinct 00:51:03].
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah. He was all set to go to Hampton.
Shavonna Maxwell: Really?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: And kind of at that time, he looked like he was kind of disappointed that he wasn't going. But I told him that I thought that that'd be an opportunity. First of all, I knew he would take it. He could take it. Anything that came up, he's just that type of person. And he came back in and led the building of that shopping center down there, Heritage Square.
Shavonna Maxwell: Oh, in Heritage Square?
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah. So you going to be working in Washington?
Shavonna Maxwell: Yeah, probably.
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh. Yeah. Well, that's good. That's nice. Yeah. So did you find Duke all right, huh?
Shavonna Maxwell: [indistinct 00:51:54].
Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: It'll do?