Grace George: And I think that we could trace back to some of their—excuse me—if you could can pass them down. Annie Gavin: Right. Right. Right Grace George: And I imagine I think [indistinct 00:00:18] did a while building houses in Newburn. Annie Gavin: Oh, yeah! Grace George: [indistinct 00:00:22] say. Annie Gavin: I bet he did. Grace George: A few houses over in— Annie Gavin: River and Elliot. Grace George: —Elliot and all of them. Some of the houses that's over here, but they [indistinct 00:00:29] all of that. [indistinct 00:00:29] on. They put a [indistinct 00:00:33] on a lot of the houses down here. You know? Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: You've got one or two of them around. But they sort of—the carpentry's over this area, you know— Annie Gavin: The architecture was about the same. Mm-hmm. Grace George: They didn't [indistinct 00:00:50]. But then I don't [indistinct 00:00:50]. You know, the thing is just— Annie Gavin: Well, they worked—they worked what they could get, but we had a lot of fisherman, you know? At the boats they'd go out and fish. Like Simon and them could go out and fish, catch fish and sell. And Mrs. Ida and them, putting them out with a basket of clothes on the head and walk across that bridge and with the basket, not even holding it. I don't know how they kept— Grace George: I got pictures of 1500 people carrying baskets on their heads. Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: And the railroad tracks—did you know anybody that, you know, worked, other than your father, that worked on the railroad tracks? From when you were a child you might remember it. Annie Gavin: No. And my daddy worked mostly away from the—because he got his foot cut off at Morehead. The owner, [indistinct 00:01:43], he was a brakeman. And that's how his foot got cut off. He put his foot to pull that, whatever it was, and the thing rolled over. Grace George: Let me say this, we, by collecting a few other Black [indistinct 00:01:55], we [indistinct 00:01:56] did have the [indistinct 00:01:56] like honorable discharged. That was dated at 1865, right? So then there's a good possibility that that man might belong to [indistinct 00:02:16] because most of all the, you know— during that time, we was fighting many [indistinct 00:02:49]. Annie Gavin: Yeah. Grace George: So he's from—he comes from Philadelphia. But this ain't facts. And I think we have that [indistinct 00:02:49] here, but I'm not sure. I have to make sure that we held on to that. But that might be interesting. Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: Because they'd be going to— Grace George: War stories. Grace George: So he— Unknown Interviewer: [indistinct 00:02:51] the presidents— Grace George: [indistinct 00:02:54]. Unknown Interviewer: [indistinct 00:02:55]. Annie Gavin: Oh, we had a lot of fellows that went to war. Sherman went to—he was in battle. And my Uncle Jimmy we'll—we— Grace George: Sammy Randolph met way back [indistinct 00:03:09]. Annie Gavin: Sammy Randolph. Grace George: That was way back. That was— Annie Gavin: World War One. Grace George: —World War One. Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: But it was—I see there's a Bryant, called Colonel Bryant. Annie Gavin: Who? Grace George: I think—only thing I heard was the "Bryant" that was fighting in the war. Annie Gavin: Uh-huh. [indistinct 00:03:42]. Grace George: Okay. So it could have been his father [indistinct 00:03:42] until the war. I think it could be his father could have been back in the Civil War. Annie Gavin: Yeah, but— Grace George: It couldn't have been about 100 and something years old by now. Annie Gavin: Yeah. Maybe. But I do know he went in the service because Sherman went in the service, too. Grace George: Sherman went in late— Annie Gavin: World War Two. Grace George: —World War Two. Cause Pitt probably went in World War One. Annie Gavin: World War One and my uncle Jimmy, and my uncle Wilbert. World War One. Grace George: Well, most of them went in the war. At that time, that was a way of getting away and learning, you know— Annie Gavin: Well, they were drafted, you know. They had to be drafted even then. And I know when the Armistice Day my grandmother's son, he was married to Mama Lou, they had brought him from Norfolk. Somebody had killed him. Grace George: Mm-hmm. Annie Gavin: And it still had them small houses and doors and had them under the tree. They had brought him back here. John Washington shot him about Ms. Hunt's. Grace George: John Washington? Annie Gavin: John Washington. Lord, leave him them. Uh-huh. And he's the one sent telegram. And he's the one came home with the body after killing him. Grace George: After killing him? Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: Who remembers [indistinct 00:05:00]. Annie Gavin: Getting old, Ms. Hunt. Ms. Hunt Lloyd's sister. Yeah. Grace George: I was [indistinct 00:05:09]. Annie Gavin: And then he stayed here. But he hung around Papa all the time. I think he called himself trying to—because he and Papa were friends. That was more Lee's and them's father. And he was from—I forgot where he's from. But anyway, he came here to work. But he worked at the mill. He used to bring—Papa would wake up in the mornings and they could bring so much material from the mill. They allowed you to carry as much as you could carry and not have to pay for it. Because my daddy was working at the mill when he built this house. And as much as he could carry on his shoulder, he could have. Grace George: Okay. Annie Gavin: And he would bring so much every night and he and Mama would go over there and nail it on the wall. Mama holding a lamp. And I was a year old at the time. Which means they had been in that house because the house been made over since then 81 years. Grace George: That's the one Delores still lives in, right? Annie Gavin: Yeah. Delores still lives in the [indistinct 00:06:33] house. Grace George: You let me know about the [indistinct 00:06:40]. Speaker 4: How are you doing? How are you doing? Grace George: Ah! Speaker 4: How are you? Cold-hearted, cold city. Annie Gavin: Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 4: Because I used to come see you all of the top. Annie Gavin: You send me all the time? Speaker 4: I used to come see you out here, driving a truck [indistinct 00:06:50] Jose. Annie Gavin: Oh, yeah. That's right. I knew I knew your face. Speaker 4: Yeah. What y'all was saying? Annie Gavin: No, we weren't saying—We talking about the war. Grace George: The old times. Annie Gavin: The old times. This is a reporter. And he's putting us on the news. Speaker 4: Oh, yeah! Annie Gavin: Gonna tell him about Old James City. Y'all got a history, too, there. Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Annie Gavin: Down there. Speaker 4: Yeah. Grace George: Did you know anybody from James City years and years ago? Annie Gavin: Yeah, because— Speaker 4: Yeah, Georgia. Annie Gavin: Everybody knew Georgia! Grace George: Old Georgia that [indistinct 00:07:25] the water [indistinct 00:07:25]. Speaker 4: It was a— Grace George: Georgia in the modern time. Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: I'm more for the back. Annie Gavin: 'Cause cold city and new— Grace George: That's not a cold Pop. He used to live in that block house on the corner. What his last name? Annie Gavin: Lived in the black-block house? Speaker 4: Yeah. He used to wait at Cherry Point. We could— Grace George: [indistinct 00:07:45] the lady is, too. Speaker 4: Yeah. Annie Gavin: I don't know. I never had nobody in James City with Cherry Point when it got there. That could work. Because my sister used to work Cherry Point. Addy. And that's what— Grace George: I understand that's when things got good to the area when the Cherry Point opened up. Annie Gavin: Yeah. 'Cause people got to know each other. Like— Grace George: [indistinct 00:08:09] knowing. Annie Gavin: —down Hollow and all around the little places, people got to know each other. Some of us knew each other by the churches. Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Annie Gavin: These days— Speaker 4: That was Mulberry a long time, too, ain't it? Annie Gavin: Yeah, he was! He's not with us anymore. Speaker 4: No? [indistinct 00:08:24]? Annie Gavin: Mm-mm. Speaker 4: When he got back? Annie Gavin: He's out—where is he, Grace? Grace George: [indistinct 00:08:30] is it [indistinct 00:08:30]? Annie Gavin: No. It's not Rocking Run. It's out that way, though. Speaker 4: Out where, Rocking Run? Annie Gavin: No. It— Grace George: No, it's further out. Annie Gavin: Further out. He said— Speaker 4: Hey, [indistinct 00:08:42]. Grace George: Maysville? Annie Gavin: Maysville. He lives in Maysville. Grace George: Okay. Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: And I think he's not too fortunate— Annie Gavin: He's— Speaker 4: No, but he [indistinct 00:09:09] they got made with. Annie Gavin: Run [indistinct 00:09:09]. Maysville, yeah. Speaker 4: Yeah. Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Run Small is—can't even think of nobody now. Speaker 4: Bell Grady? Annie Gavin: It's that way. It's the same direction that—it's not too far from home. Speaker 4: It must be back where [indistinct 00:09:14] there. They in Jacksonville, [indistinct 00:09:24]. Annie Gavin: Hm? Speaker 4: It ain't Jacksonville. Annie Gavin: No, it's not Jacksonville. Jacksonville is [indistinct 00:09:28]. Speaker 4: Well, he's got the be [indistinct 00:09:31] then. That's [indistinct 00:09:31]— Grace George: Is it Jones [indistinct 00:09:31]? Annie Gavin: Well, he wasn't the first, but he was Presiding Elder at first. But he's the one put the bricks around us. Grace George: Okay because we moved over here with—it was a wooden church. Annie Gavin: Yeah, it was a wooden church. Grace George: Right next to the end. So they bricked it up over here. Annie Gavin: Well, it was just a small church in James City. Grace George: Mm-hmm. Annie Gavin: But who brought us over here? Speaker 4: How about putting on a TV? Annie Gavin: No, he's a reporter. History stuff. Grace George: This is a community college club, that public radio station. Annie Gavin: Oh, yeah? Uh-huh. Grace George: This is for—he's from the college. Annie Gavin: They record things for future generations. Grace George: Is it true that a lot of the bricks were hauled over? They brought the bricks by a train? And they [indistinct 00:10:35] on the train? Annie Gavin: On a train. And parked the train—Reverend Thurston and, you know, Reverend Thurston was quite— Grace George: [indistinct 00:10:43]. They had the right hand. They could get it done good. Annie Gavin: And they parked the train on the tracks out there. Grace George: Mm-hmm. Annie Gavin: And the little boys like this, it was—as long as it's big enough to bring a brick— Grace George: Mm-hmm. Annie Gavin: —they would be bringing those bricks. And Latamar, I think, was the people that used to sell lumbar and doors and stuff. Grace George: Mm-hmm. Annie Gavin: So Reverend Thurston, he was a tricky man! Grace George: Mm-hmm. Annie Gavin: He would have service and invite these people to the service. And it was summertime. He'd tell them, pull off your coat. And these women sitting up here with their arms out, Latamar, I remember the people's name was Latamar was the ones that sold the material. And then he'd say, you see these doors? They let us have them until we can get some money to pay for them. Then the man get up and said we could have them! He was cranky! You know, it's—a friendship gets a lot. Grace George: I try to tell our people that. Annie Gavin: Friendship gets a lot. Reverend Thurston was nice to everybody. Speaker 4: I tell you, I'm going to tell you a lot, too. My daddy— Annie Gavin: Who? Speaker 4: My daddy had it, too. He can tell you everything happened about that. Grace George: Mm-hmm. Speaker 4: But he made it in the cold city. You go up that way? Grace George: Well, maybe we will eventually because what happened here, we're talking about James City, but James City was the key that many people came through James City— Annie Gavin: James City. Grace George: —and spread out throughout the counties— Annie Gavin: Right. Grace George: —and, you know, the area. So many of you will tell us stories that happened here, and then they moved to other areas so it is interesting to come around and talk to—because most Black communities are pretty much set up. Annie Gavin: Yeah. Grace George: And they did things similar. Annie Gavin: Right. Grace George: And I take James City as like Ellis Island, that you came through here, but all couldn't stay because it was too small, from what I understand. Annie Gavin: Right. Grace George: So many of them branched out all around the surrounding areas. Annie Gavin: And a lot of— Grace George: There's a possibility [indistinct 00:12:48]. Annie Gavin: And a lot of people got to know each other, come together here at Cherry Point. Because through the churches, they used to meet up, but the churches didn't interchange pulpits as much before they had transportation. But they went on the horse and buggy. Speaker 4: That's where I met you, through the church. Annie Gavin: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And we don't do enough of that no more! Speaker 4: That's right! Grace George: Tell us your— Annie Gavin: No, we don't fellowship between churches like we used to. Since we got something to travel on, we don't do it. But— Grace George: Ms. Davis said she used to walk to the Morehead City. You would like, take a little—you didn't have the transportation. You'd ride a little bit, walk a little bit, till you get where you gotta go. Everything was— Annie Gavin: I know a minute about walking to Morehead City that— Grace George: She said her father was walking that much. Annie Gavin: Yeah. Grace George: She said he'd had to walk. Annie Gavin: Well, they rode the horse and buggy and stuff. Grace George: Mm-hmm. The train. Annie Gavin: Yeah. Catch a train. We used to catch a train to Morehead City and down in that area. I guess people have walked, though, because people have walked from Havelock to New Bern. Grace George: Mm-hmm. Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: They're saying, about what year did you finish school? You being— Annie Gavin: 1930. Grace George: 1930. Okay. Okay. Because I'm curious when I see these pictures— Annie Gavin: Yeah. Grace George: —you finish at the Barber School? Annie Gavin: No, I finished Kinston. Grace George: Okay. Okay. Annie Gavin: I went to Kenston. That was Summer Reverend Thurston's doing. Grace George: Okay. Annie Gavin: Yeah. Because Sutton School was losing its credit. And he got me a room at Holloway's. Holloway's a good man. Old man Holloway was president of the bank. Kinston had a Negro bank. Grace George: Okay. Annie Gavin: Uh-huh. [indistinct 00:14:47] Atkins. Grace George: Mm-hmm. And so the ministers took an active role in the community. Annie Gavin: In the community. Yeah. Yeah, Sutton School was closing. And I was a senior, and he got a room for me with the Holloways in Kinston. And Dr. Harrison lived right beside the Holloways. And I used to babysit for them. And I learned—and his wife was very smart. And I learned a lot from her. But she was brought up in White people's kitchen. Her mother—that's how her mother made a living for her and sent her to [indistinct 00:15:36], and she was very smart. Annie Gavin: And so I learned a lot. And matter of fact, she taught me not to eat with my fingers. Use your knife and forks so. And even today when I'm by myself, I use my knife and fork. Grace George: Okay! That she did. Annie Gavin: That's what it's for. But she grew up and her mother worked for a family and she grew up in that family. So everything she knew she taught to me, and she was about the Harrison's wife. Very smart. Annie Gavin: Dr. Harrison saved more people's lives during than the flu epidemic. He become famous. White and Black, he attended. 'Cause they're all dead now. Grace George: That is good to remember. Annie Gavin: Yeah, it's good to—things that happen, you don't ever really forget. And— Grace George: It's good to share that knowledge. You know? Annie Gavin: Yeah. And we had a habit of eating with our fingers and picking it up out the plate. She didn't let me do that. I ate to the table with them. You had to have your napkin. I almost do the same thing right now. I had to use that knife and fork a certain way. But we're used to taking it up and eating it. Grace George: Yeah, we eat the way we enjoy. Annie Gavin: But she worked with the—her mother worked with the White family, and they taught them a lot. Grace George: It's amazing how no matter how much we're taught, we're interwoven the way we were brought. Annie Gavin: Right. Right. Grace George: And to this day, I cannot understand what the separation was. You know, it happened. Because we are like, interwoven. It's one depending on the other. Annie Gavin: That's right. Grace George: Yeah. [indistinct 00:17:35]. Annie Gavin: And always was that way. Speaker 4: Well, you take fish, I eat them with my hand even now. Don't nobody know, especially when I'm alone by myself. Grace George: You want to enjoy it? Annie Gavin: Yeah. The taste better that way. Speaker 4: I get to myself, I put them fingers in my own fish. Annie Gavin: I can't eat fish. Fish make me sick. Speaker 4: It don't come with a fork big enough to pick up the fish or nothing. Let me get to—I like to eat by myself, anyway. Annie Gavin: So you could eat it just like you want to. Speaker 4: Eat it all. Annie Gavin: You can get your fingers. Grace George: Love fish. Speaker 4: Yeah. Grace George: It's a good food to eat. Annie Gavin: Oh, my children love fish, but I can't eat fish. I never could eat fish. I can eat crabs, though. I never could eat fish. Mama found out when a very young child at a cousin—it make me sick. You know, it would come back. Grace George: Don't touch it then [indistinct 00:18:16]. Annie Gavin: Uh-uh. I don't need—have no taste for— Grace George: It's amazing, though, because most things that are against you, you really like it. Annie Gavin: Uh-huh. Grace George: Yeah. Annie Gavin: But in my case, it'd make me sick. It wouldn't stay down in my stomach. I was allergic to fish. But I could eat crabs. But all my children can eat fish. And they love fish and I used to have to cook them because they loved them. Speaker 4: You take Mr. Edward, when he used to run out of old man's—you know him long. Annie Gavin: Yeah. Speaker 4: He still run that place farm and showing us up [indistinct 00:18:51] Center Lane. Annie Gavin: Who? Speaker 4: Mr. Edward. Annie Gavin: Edward Hicks? Is that— Speaker 4: Real light skinned. Annie Gavin: Mr. Edwards a school teacher? Speaker 4: Yeah. Annie Gavin: Oh, yeah he's still alive and Mrs. Edwards is still alive. Speaker 4: Yeah, he's still [indistinct 00:19:04] real estate, too. Annie Gavin: He does? Grace George: How old is he? Annie Gavin: Oh, he talking about Lil' Pop. Talking about Mr. Evans? Speaker 4: Yeah. Annie Gavin: Yeah. Speaker 4: You been add your [indistinct 00:19:16]. Annie Gavin: Mr. Evans. Poppa Evans. Grace George: Okay. Annie Gavin: Uh-huh. Speaker 4: He's selling real estate now. Grace George: Yeah, [indistinct 00:19:17] is sold. Annie Gavin: Uh-huh. He's got a office. Speaker 4: I got to see him today sometime. Annie Gavin: He's still at it. Speaker 4: I'm about to sell him [indistinct 00:19:27] Atlanta [indistinct 00:19:27] gets to Jacksonville. Grace George: Now he must be about, what? Is he that old? Annie Gavin: He's old as I am or older. Grace George: And Mr. Rivers? Speaker 4: 82, ain't he? Annie Gavin: Yeah. Grace George: What about Mr. Rivers? Annie Gavin: Rivers is in a nursing home now. Grace George: Yeah, he's—my mom said he was the principal down at James [indistinct 00:19:41]. Annie Gavin: He was Principal of James School. Mm-hmm. Speaker 4: Or at about nine. Annie Gavin: Yeah, Mr. Evans, I think he's stopped traveling now. Yeah, Mr. Ellis is come there being 100. Speaker 4: You're right. [indistinct 00:19:57] in it. But he down there around Cherry Point, Jackson, or Holloway. Annie Gavin: Hollow. Grace George: And I think if we could trace back to some of their ancestors, it's usually past they them down, you know? Annie Gavin: Right. Right. Right. Grace George: You know? Annie Gavin: Right. Grace George: And I imagine, I think, some of them did a lot of building the houses in Newburn. Annie Gavin: Oh yeah. Grace George: [indistinct 00:20:23] sake. Annie Gavin: Uh-huh. It did. Grace George: A few houses over [indistinct 00:20:24]— Annie Gavin: Reverend Elliot. Grace George: —Elliot and all of them. Some of the houses that's over here, like Mrs. Davis's and all of that, still are. They still don't look like the houses downtown. You know, you've got one of two of them around. Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: But they sort of, the carpenters over this area, you know— Annie Gavin: The architecture was about the same. Grace George: —[indistinct 00:20:33]. But I don't feel the thing is history [indistinct 00:20:48]. Annie Gavin: Well, they worked what they could get. Grace George: The railroad tracks— Annie Gavin: But we had a lot of fisherman, you know, type of boats go out and fish. Like Simon and them could go out and fish, catch fish and sell. And Mrs. Ida and them putting them out, basket of clothes on the head, and walk across that bridge with the basket, not even holding it. I don't know how they kept [indistinct 00:21:16]. Grace George: I've got pictures of people carrying baskets on their head. Annie Gavin: Mm-hmm. Grace George: Now the railroad tracks, did you know anybody that, you know, worked, other than your father, on the railroad tracks? From when you were—