Man: Virginia Deer 1-1588, Montgomery, Alabama. Woman: Here in Alabama now, in Mississippi, the law was changed in '73, but I do think thugh... Man: I'm sorry, we ready to actually do this, so we're starting? That's why I'd like to get it flowing. But you're saying you've gotta be right... Woman: Well I'll do the best I can, and I hope that she'll refute me because she's a lot younger than I am, and she knows a lot more than I do about young Black women, because I don't. I know about some of 'em, but I don't know about other... Second Woman: Well we probably have to have that conversation another time. (laughs) I'm interested in these issues at the same time, but this is a documentary about women in the Civil Rights Movement, so we're gonna go back and talk about that, and should you wanna talk about... (laughs) We can't talk about this whole thing. Man: But what I'd like to do is in three sections talk about your involvement and how you got involved in the Civil Rights Movement. And the historical (inaudible). The second thing is What do you see today that is an extension of the Civil Rights Movement? Your perceptions of where it's gone. It's come forward, and how much you were doing in the USA, and what is the legacy that is left by the Civil Rights Movement? And any conceptions you have now that- Part of the documentary talks about the Civil Rights Movement, in terms of desegregation, voting rights, and things like that, and at some point, because of the women in the movement and because of the women's movement itself, it moved into that more general human rights movement with women at the forefront. Woman: No it didn't do that then, not yet. Man: Well, the whole classic women's movement- Woman: Took off some. Man: Yeah, well that's where I'm going with that. And how far did you have to come, and how much farther do we have to go? Woman: Well you seem, okay, surprised, but I don't I would have to say that--I don't think the classic women's movement has stressed gender so much (inaudible) to really answer the question. - Then that's fine And you know, I think that what we're up against now is a terrible economic crisis, and I think (inaudible) And so I think women have to be in the forefront, to make a living. Men and women, God help us. Well you start off. Man: She's gonna ask you a question and... Second Woman: They have to make it stay on track because they're getting off on asking tangential questions. (everyone speaking at once) Durr: Well I got it--now, are you on or not? Rubin: Yes Ma'am, we are ready to go. Durr: Well let's go. Rubin: Go ahead. Durr: Well I went to Washington in 1933. My husband went up there to work for the Reconstruction Finance Corporation because all the banks were closed. And I got interested in the Democratic Party from Mr. Roosevelt and Mrs. Roosevelt. And so I began to be a volunteer for the Democratic National Committee Women's Division, and oddly enough, it's hard for you all to remember since you're so young. The District of Columbia was as segregated then as the governmental body. President Roosevelt's (inaudible) was segregated. I didn't know about anything, at that time, but it was. And every government building was segregated, and everything down there was segregated, and the whole of D.C. was segregated. So one of the first things that the women did, and one of the first things that Mrs. Roosevelt got interested in was doing away with segregation. And I have a friend named Paul Coleman from Atlanta who's the head of the paper there. And he had a black secretary. And you know, you never saw such carrying on in your life because he had a Black secretary She was very ambitious and a very nice woman, but he had to fight tooth and nail, you know, to keep her. And Washington was desegregated by a very fine woman named Mrs. Mary Church Terrell. She was an old lady that came from Memphis, Tennessee, originally, and she was married to a federal judge. And she went into some eating place with two men, and they wouldn't serve her, and so they brought soup, and that broke the segregation in D.C. So you see, I had my first experience working in the Civil Rights Movement in the District of Columbia and under the New Deal with Roosevelt, and having everybody on my side, I mean, the Supreme Court was on my side, and the White House was on our side. Everybody was on our side except the Southern Congressmen... (mumbles) Getting rid of the segregation was just wonderful. The difference was... But anyway, that's how I got interested. And then the next thing I got interested in- This was also through the Women's Division of the Democratic National Committee- Was the fact that women of the South black and white, were denied the right to vote. You see, when the Northern law had passed. - How are you Mrs. Carl, Nikki Crawford, pleased to meet you. - I'm so glad to see ya. - Oh this is a treat to have you two here together - This is Frank Rosso. - I'm producing a program for (inaudible) Durr: And how about if we go ahead and finish this off? When we get to the Civil Rights stuff- And this is how I got into the Civil Rights Movement. I was talking about what happened in Washington with Chuck. How we had so many strengths on our side. And Judge Hastings, he wrote the bills for us. And Charlie Houston, do you know that man? Second Woman: No. Durr: Goodness. (laughs) Now black history has really got to be taught. Charlie Houston was probably one of the greatest black men that ever lived in this country. He was a great lawyer, he was the dean of the law school, and he was the man that won all these big cases. - Howard Law School Well Charlie Houston was a really a brave man. Well anyway we had all this power on our side, so segregation was done away with, and the next thing was the right to vote. And the things was, when the Civil War was ended, and the laws were enacted, he gave the black men and the white men the right to vote, except of course the white men couldn't vote if he had taken part in the Civil War, but if he hadn't then- but the women - neither black nor white women had any right to vote at all So down here in the South, they didn't even pass the right to vote for women, you know The Amendment, it was a movement to get the vote. Started about 1917, but I was too young for that. The thing was that neither the white women or the black women of the South ever voted. And neither did poor white folks either, cause you see you had to pay a poll tax which not only meant you paid a dollar and a half a year but you had to pay back taxes, all the taxes you'd missed so you'd pay 45 dollars, before you could start voting. So the next thing that the Women's Division did was begin to struggle for the right to vote. And the man that carried the burden for us was Claude Pepper of Florida, who came from Alabama. He was a volunteer in Clay County and he went and got elected To the Senate from Florida, and he was the one but he, you know, had got rid of the poll tax in Florida and he was the one that fought for the right to vote for everybody in the South. And over and over and over again he would introduce the bill on the right to vote and eliminate the poll taxes And it took years and years and years to get the right to vote, so I got interested in that. And that was really occupied use of my time and energy It just seemed so incredible that we had to fight against it But they didn't want Blacks voting and they didn't want the women voting either And it wasn't until Lyndon Johnson came in, and that was 1950... something when he got the Civil Rights Bill passed. Second Woman: 1965. Woman: Was that 1965? Second Woman: He did it. Woman: He got the bill passed, he got the poll tax removed and the right to vote, but not 'til '65. You see, that was a long time. But intelligent people are mad at him still on account of the war And I think he was wrong about the Vietnamese War. But still he got Southern people the right to vote. And one of the things that happened when we came back South and my husband opened his office here was that the woman didn't, blacks didn't vote, and very few of the white men voted. Because, you know, the poll tax kept them from it And in Alabama, when the time to vote would come, and it wouldn't be more than 15 percent of the voting population that would cast a ballot. Isn't that right, John? Man: That's right. - A tiny, you know, minority ever cast a vote. Well, it meanth they had no power and that everything was controlled completely by white men, and it was always the same white men, you know, they just had bigoted views, they called them About everything. So it really wasn't when they started the fight for the right to vote here in Montgomery had gone on before we ever came back here in 1951. Now Johnny can tell you about that because that started back before we got here in 1951. Mr. Nixon I think it was started the, uh, Did he start the voting club, or who did? - Cooper Lewis - Cooper Lewis? Well, you tell about it Man: Okay, if we're gonna do that then, we'll get Charlie. Second Woman: And I wanna hear about the Women's Political Council and how you started that and the work that you did. That's really important that we hear hear that. - (inaudible) that I started the women's political council? - Well you and Joanne Robinson. - Joanne Robinson. Joanne Robinson, Mrs. West, and some others. But I did not start it, but I was part of it. And as part of the community and because of my work in the community, I was invited - And I'd like to know how you all met each other. (laughter) - We couldn't help it, it was inevitable. Well we belonged to something called the Churchwomen United. And later, Mrs. Tilly, over in Atlanta Georgia, who was a great Methodist lady, and who was head of the Methodist women, she came over and she joined something called the Fellowship of the Concerned. And that was in (inaudible) And somebody oughta write a book about Ms. Tilly. She was a wonderful woman. But the first thing that started was called the Churchwomen United and that started here, and we used to have integrated meetings in various churches and Mrs. Johnny was one of the leaders, and then there was Mrs. Olive Andrews who was a white woman, and she was one of them. And Mrs. Rutledge And Mrs. Foster whose husband was president of Tuskegee She used to come to meetings And there was a Mrs. (inaudible) whose sister was named (inaudible) the college, you know? Simpson? And Ms. Campbell, Ms. Alexander And we'd meet and we wouldn't do actually very much but meet together. - Did you know Clarie Collins Harvey in Mississippi who was president of Church Women United? She was a Black woman and (inaudible) - The national Church Women United? Clarie Collins Harvey, who became later, this was 1975, became national president of Church Women United Mississippi, from Jackson, she was the first Southerner and the first black woman. - I'm trying to remember, I didn't know her at the time But I had met (inaudible) I'm trying to remember her husband Second Woman: Hmm-mm. - I have one of his books, but I never, you know, met her Because I didn't get involved in the national until... (inaudible) '77. It was '77. We really didn't do anything except meet together and pray. And we usually met in black churches, 'cause no white church would have us, but they did have us at the Orthodox Greek Church. Remember that one time? (laughter) And then the Catholics had us at St. Jude's. That was the day that they attacked us. There was a man here named John Collin who had a group of people. What was the name of his organization? Anyway, it was extremely racist. What was the name of it? Anyway, he came that day and took our names, and addresses and telephone numbers and got them all on a license to pay. Then he began a series of calling people up and annoying them, threatening them - What did your husband say about you all women being in this situation? (laughs) Did they go along with this idea? Because certainly that was radical at such a time. - (laughs) It's funny you say it was radical. Second Woman: At that time! - Well my husband thought it was my idea. (inaudible) Man: Okay, we are just about ready to go. Mrs. Carr, would you say a couple things so we can make sure of your sound. Woman: Ms. Virginia, how you feelin' this morning? Man: Okay. Second Man: That mic might be too low. I think it might have slipped. Man: Apparently so. How's that? Testing one, two, three, four. Mic check one, two, three four Second Woman: That's gonna be low, I can tell by the way that mic is situated. Man: Yeah. (group chatter) Second Woman: Mrs. Carr, are you from Montgomery? Originally? - Mrs. Carr's a great friend of Mrs. (inaudible) they went to school together as young women, girls and they've been very close friends for years and years (inaudible) (inaudible) (inaudible) - What's the matter? Man: Well, we have just a little bit of a sound problem. Let me check one thing out. Test one, two, three. Second Man: Not bad. Man: Can you hear anything through the head set? One, two, three. Second Man: There is a little hiss. Well we're gonna have to go with it. We don't know what's wrong. Second Woman: I'm gonna get my daughter (inaudible) (laughter) Man: Okay, we're ready to go. Second Woman: Let me know when you get tired, and we can stop. Cause they are editing this so we don't... Woman: I just don't know how long it's gonna take. Man: Okay, please. - Well, you have to realize, and this is the last thing I'm gonna say. You have to realize That this is what makes T.V. very difficult. Man: Absolutely. Woman: Because the thing is when she asks what you're saying or what you're doing- I've been on T.V. a number of times, and I've never known it yet not to break down. So you really do- It's just constant interruption. And you do feel, you know, that what you have to say is all rolled over the (inaudible) Second Woman: And trying to get the story. Woman: When the damn thing breaks down all the time! Man: Ms. Dare, I've been in the business for 15 years, and I've had the exact same experiences you've had. I have not been anywhere where the machinery hasn't broken down. Woman: Why does it break down? Man: Because you're dealing with 8,000 little tiny bitty parts that all have to work, you know? And writers have it relatively easy. They can take a pencil and an old piece of paper, and write down a thought. Second Woman: Well that's why I choose to write. (laughter) Well because... and this was a problem. When I went to Mississippi to (inaudible) You know, these people didn't know me I had to sit down with you for two hours and tell you what I did with my story. And I had to get to know people first before I was even able to talk to them. - Well, we have been here now, you know nearly 45 minutes and we have had about 5 or 10 minutes of conversation Man: Twenty. We've had twenty minutes of conversation. And actually 50 percent of the time being done on tape, it's not a bad ratio. So we're ready to go. (laughter) - alright, we're rolling - Why don't you, you were giving a talk about... I asked you about your husbands being supportive of your work about this inter-racial prayer group. - In the first place, inter-racial prayer group... The fact that everybody took exception to it showed that They were absolutely madly racist because we were as respectable a group of women as you could find anywhere. In the wide world. We were all church-goers, we all believed in the Christian religion as far as I can remember. We opened with prayer and closed with prayer. And the thing was that I think we were carrying after the very best that women could do in the situation that we were in This was the one place we could meet together without being, you know, arrested taken to jail and you know it was so hard for you young people to realize That just being together in the same place could cause them to arrest you That's just awfully difficult for you to imagine - You asked me if my husband went along with it. My husband had been supportive of all of the work that I had been doing, the civil rights work even before the movement started in 1955. Because Rosa Parks and I both worked with the NAACP of which Mr. Nixon at one time was the president And we worked together in the community So we had a relationship with each other, Rosa and I, and also my husband supported me, whatever I was doing with Civil Rights, all the time. So I had no problem with that. Two things I had in my favor: my job and my home. I worked for the Atlanta Life Insurance Company, and I had no problem with it agreeing with my job. 'Course I had the support at home from my family. - Okay, can you all talk a bit about the Freedom Riders? That first came into town in 1961 How you (inaudible) going in What was your reaction? - Well, we'd been hearing about 'em comin', and my husband had an office right across from the bus station, and there was this group of men that were hangin' around the station all the time, and everybody knew they were Ku Klux's. You know, uh, what did you call them? White Citizen's Councilmen. So we knew that the Ku Klux was comin', but the morning it came, I went down to pick up the mail and I had a friend with me, named Jessica (inaudible) who was a writer, (inaudible) is her novel and so we got to the office, and she went down out of the car and went into the bus station, because she saw there was a crowd and I was left with the car, so I finally parked it and went up to the office so I could see what was goin' on, and there was a riot. And the bus had come in and the people had gotten off and they were being beaten up, and it was just a terrible sight to see, and being hauled off, you know, in paddiwagons And then some of 'em being put in (inaudible) And then the next night, we drove by the, uh, Grace Baptist Church and they were having a Mass meeting, and that church was just surrounded by a mob. And Jessica (inaudible), the writer, said she was goin' in and we told her she'd be in trouble, but she went anyway. We took my car, and the car got banged up, and she got caught in that church 'til four o'clock the next morning, when the national guard got out and it was just a terrifying picture. Everybody was just terrified you were scared people were gonna be dead Because it was just a mob, and Dr. King came over. And he tried to, you know And then I do think that Bobby Kennedy said it was a mob. - I can remember very well that it was on a Saturday, and we had gone to Tuskegee to take a group of boys out on the tour, and I was incidentally carrying my little small transistor radio with me and I put the radio on and we heard all this commotion from the police, saying "move over, move over. Cross over." We got around the radio and began to listen and that was when we heard them saying that there were people being beaten, the ambulances couldn't get in But we were in Tuskegee with these children And we came home, and that night, they had a meeting At one of the churches, the organizers were getting ready for a mass meeting on Sunday night and a lot of people were afraid to go out over there with all this commotion At the bus station. But incidentally enough (inaudible) I went to find out what was going on, and they were getting ready to have this mass meeting at First Baptist Church That Sunday night. That Sunday night, when we went down to the church, I never got in the church, because I got within a block of the church, and it was so crowded. But later my husband was sitting on the porch, and he said, "You cannot get in that church," and I said, "I bet I will." But I had two persons with me, and they weren't ready to go on, so we stopped at their house. I saw Mrs. Durr's car when it was being robbed. The guys got on the car and rocked the car, and flipped it over, and the gas started running out. It was a mess. We were looking at that when it happened, right down on the corner from the house where we were. We stayed at this house until about 12 o'clock that night, because we couldn't get down to the church. And these people in the streets were a mob. And that was the first time I had ever really seen a mob. People were running up and down the streets, and there was one white girl with long hair like a horse mane and she just kept doing a cat call. That was all she would do was keep doin' a cat call. But we stayed and watched inside this house where we were The commotion that was going on So when those trucks went down, with those marshalls and it kind of quieted down I told my husband and my nephew, I said, "We're going home." I said let's walk right on out, go close together, and don't stop. Get to the car and we're going home, and we did. We got home about one o'clock, but the people stayed in First Baptist Church all night that night, til about 4 o'clock that morning Before they were allowed to go home - That was when they called out the National Guard. - Right, uh-huh. And they had the National Guard and the Marshalls were there. To help people Because what the city was doing, was nothing. And so the National Guard had to come out I guess because (inaudible) But because of the leaders that were down in the church And they had communications with national leadership and that was what helped to get things (inaudible) And the days after then, Ralph Abernathy, who lived right down the street from me, on Hall St. And the days after then They were stationed around his house, to protect his house. It was just really something else We knew about the bus, I mean her car being burned and abut the people that were beaten at the bus station. - Talk a bit about your personal involvement in the movement, okay, what roles you both personally played? Certainly (inaudible) To participate in the Civil Rights Movement, meant almost being judged as a pariah among (inaudible) can you tell us about that? - Well you see, you gotta understand that my husband was a lawyer, and I was his secretary. And he was always the one that did the big doings He had all these people came to him as a lawyer and his clients, and his nephew's name was (inaudible) had begun taking Black clients Civil Rights cases, and then when my husband who was in the same office as (inaudible) he began to inherit, and Mr. Nixon who was the head of the NAACP was always bringing clients And there were always cases my husband thought were, you know, were really daring. And I look back on my life, and always feel that what he did He's the one that got Ms. Parks out of jail and he's the one and he's the one that Mr. Nixon made put up the bail money, who's dead now. He put up the bail money, but my husband did all the legal work to get them out of the jail That was the night we took 'em home, and that was the night that she decided she was going to carry the case on through the Supreme Court. And then that meant that Fred Gray who was the lawyer for the NAACP took the case over because the law... because the NAACP had to, you know, pay the bills and carry the case on through. But my husband worked with him. You know it was (inaudible) I told you before, I had gone all through this in Washington I'd gone through the whole struggle in Washington before and so the one in Alabama didn't have the support we had in Washingtn But by that time I was thoroughly convinced that, you know, we were right. I spent 20 years in Washington, and I certainly learned that segregation was wrong. People had the right to vote. (laughter) She's a revolutionary. For thinking people had a right to vote and shouldn't be segregated Segregation in the South was so blatant If you know what I mean If you were a librarian as a Black person in the South (inaudible) very difficult And I had a friend who was a librarian. And, now they did take after her She got so upset, she committed suicide (inaudible) But she got harassed a lot - Tell us about your personal involvement. - My personal involvement in the movement began when the movement first started. When Rosa Parks was arrested on December 1st, 1955 That night Mr. Nixon called me 'course we had been working together, and he said to me, "Mrs. Carr" he said, "they have arrested the wrong woman." I said, "Who have they arrested now?" He said, "Rosa." I said, "Not Rosa Parks?" He said yes they had arrested Rosa Parks. And he told me he had been and got her out of jail that day He said, "I don't know what the end result's gonna be but they have arrested the wrong woman." And that was the end of our conversation. And on Saturday, when they were getting organized to have the mass meeting that was gonna be held that Monday night, they had some of those scrips of paper where they had made the announcements that they wanted to put out in the community. And I was called and asked to help distribute those. I was not able to do that because I had to go to Birmingham for a board meeting. And I could not help them do it. But I did organize my section, and had some other persons participate and put those things out. Little pieces of paper, the little announcements that we had And I've heard so many versions of this but (inaudible) related One said that a black woman got one and carried it to the lady that she worked with. And she notified the official that the Blacks were fixing have an uprising And some said that Mr. Nixon got a person who worked at the chamber (cross talk) and told him about it And he was the one that- But anyway, whatever happened, the paper that Sunday had a big spread about the Blacks that were going to have this uprising and boycott and whatever So then the ministers in the pulpit on Sunday told us to go announce that we had plus a spread in the paper and it was on the radio and T.V., but in spite of all of that, that Monday morning, when we were asked to stay off the bus, the city officials put two policemen behind each bus that went on the run that morning cause they said "goons," or Blacks are gonna get people off the bus and we had no idea of doing anything like that But that's what they said. so those who didn't get the announcement or go to church, didn't hear the radio or see the newspaper, when they saw those two policemen behind those buses, they didn't ride the bus. It made it almost 100 percent effective, because people, who didn't get any of the announcements, when they saw those policemen, they knew there was something wrong and they did not ride the bus, so that December 5th When we were asked to stay off the buses We found that it was really successful Because the buses ran empty all day that day. And then that night we had a mass meeting and of course I was asked to serve in several committees on the movement, because of being a person in the community as I said, working for Atlanta Life Insurance free to do as I please as far as my job is concerned, and having support from my family, I was not afraid to participate in what was going on, and certainly I was involved in it. In doing the process of the movement, there were groups in different cities who wanted people from the movement to come and appear to tell the story. And I remember I had three engagements that I filled for that (inaudible) I went to speak to the NAACP state meeting. And the next one I went was to Chicago, Illinois. The Illinois Women's State Convention was having their meeting and I went there. And the next one was in Newark, New Jersey. The Council of Negro Women was having their original meeting and I was asked to go there and speak And as we went to these various places to speak They would send contributions back to help our movement here And I was able to participate in going to some of the places Rosa went to some, Dr. King, Dr. Abernathy well many of the leaders went to some of those places too To help tell the story and also to bring funds back To help the organization So I was involved in it from the very inception And I had been involved in the community with the NAACP - What was the Women's Political Council? - The Women's Political Council grew out of the fact that we have a League of Women Voters here The League of Women Voters did not accept black women in their organization. Mrs. Robinson and Mary Fair Burks and some other women, when they found that we could not join the League of Women Voters here, locally, they applied to the national that we would have a Negro League of Women Voters for the Blacks But they said they could not have two in the same city, and so that's how the political council of women or, Women's Political Council got organized. They decided to have a political organization of black women And this is what we were doing - Well you know that the Women's Political Council I was called over to New Orleans, you know, by Jim Eastland And accused of trying to overthrow the government by force and violence So I got a Pell Grant They said, "Hooray, we'll call you," you know "We'll stand by you." Women's Political Council. And I got home, they invited me to a meeting, and I said, "Why did you have them send me a telegram?" They said, "Jim Eastland's against you, we figured you were OK." (laughter) - Why would Jim Eastland say that you tried to overthrow the government? - Well he said that about everybody that was trying to do away with segregation, and get the vote because he claimed it meant you were a Communist and you were trying to have a revolution to overthrow the government by force of violence And he thought everbody was trying to... Fannie Lou Hamer, you know who she was She was on his plantation, and she finally had to leave. But he was probably one of the most racist men in the South, wouldn't you say so? (inaudible) - He just built a statue, a monument (inaudible) himself and his brothers. - The thing that was (inaudible) about the women is that there was a very natural group of black women in Montgomery who were already leaders like (inaudible) and Jo Ann Robinson and the thing is that they had leaders in their churches (inaudible) but there was a very large group in Montgomery already of women who were already leaders And so the thing is that the whole thing with the women they were just such wonderful and remarkable leaders And the women that worked as maids over in the white homes they were so remarkable, because they would walk to work And they would just show so much bravery and so much good sense. It was just marvelous, the control they showed. It was really a remarkable group of women. And Jo Ann has written about a few of them Jo Ann Robinson, but and Parks has been written about I just feel like there ought to be a whole book written about them. And I don't say that the men didn't help too, but I think that the women were the ones that won the battle. - Well, I feel like (inaudible) during the movement, in 1955, there was one time that we found that all people came together. We had a lot of passion and we had a lot (inaudible) But we had people who had been afraid to come out and participate in anything but when this came about they just lost their fear or whatever it was and they came and got together and Dr. King used to say that we had youths, (inaudible) PhDs and Northerners all working together. And incidentally this week I was in the archives And I saw that (inaudible) where in eighteen sixty... sixty something that there were no women voting, only white men and they had to have a certain standard if they were able to vote And black men were able to vote at that time because if you remember, we did at one time have Black senators and representatives and that type of persons before they came along and set up the poll tax and all of the barriers that came up and destroyed their right to vote. And that's why we had to go back and fight so hard for the right to vote and that's why 1965 was so significant That everybody was given the right to vote and the League of Women Voters here, I am a member And I work with the League of Women Voters here but at one time, we were not privileged to be members of the League of Women Voters And I don't ever let them forget it but I will continue to talk about what we have done, that we realize that we have come a long way, because now we have a black woman president. Of the local League of Women Voters