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Ready? Okay, okay.
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Good afternoon.
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And we are very grateful to you for participating
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in our Witness to Guantanamo project.
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We invite you to speak about your experiences
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regarding Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
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We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity
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to tell your story in your own words.
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We are creating an archive of stories
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so that people in America and around the world
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will have a better understanding
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of what you and others have seen and experienced
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over the past 8 1/2 years regarding Guantanamo.
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Future generations must know what happened,
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and by telling your story, you are contributing to history.
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We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak with us.
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If at any time during the interview,
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you would like to take a break, please let us know.
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And if you say something you did not mean to say
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and would like to remove it, please tell us,
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and we'll remove it.
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So I'd like to just begin with some general information
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about you, your name and a little background,
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Erwin, just so that we have it.
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Sure. My name is Erwin Chemerinsky.
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I'm dean and professor of law
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at the University of California Irvine School of Law.
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Before that, I was a professor of law at Duke University,
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before that, a professor of law
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at the University of Southern California
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and what's relevant is I began representing
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a Guantanamo detainee at USC,
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continued to just as I was on the faculty at Duke
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and continue to do so since I've come
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to the University of California, Irvine.
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I think it's also relevant
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if you can tell us a little bit about your history,
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going back in terms of your civil liberties,
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civil rights experiences.
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Just generally, just a few things.
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Sure. I'd been a law professor for 30 years.
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I did public interest law after law school before that.
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Since becoming a law professor,
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I've been involved in handling appellate cases.
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All are civil liberties, civil rights cases.
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I've done virtually all of them pro bono.
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I've argued over 100 appeals in various courts of appeals
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including several cases in the United States Supreme Court.
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And can you give us just a little background
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on your schooling too?
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Do you want to go there?
Sure.
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I went to Northwestern University
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and then I went to Harvard law school.
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So we'd like to begin
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with your first involvement with Guantanamo.
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And if you could explain what motivated you,
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what caused you to get involved?
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The first reports of the Guantanamo detainees
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being brought there
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were over Martin Luther King Day weekend in 2002.
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I received a phone call from a civil rights lawyer
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in Los Angeles, Stephen Yagman.
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He was very upset at the reports he was hearing
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of individuals being brought bound, gagged and drugged
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on military planes,
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being put in 8 foot by 8 foot cages in Guantanamo.
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He said somebody should file a lawsuit on their behalf
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because what's being done violates international law
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and the United States Constitution.
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I had worked with Mr. Yagman on many cases before
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and so was quite willing to work with him again.
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I did some research over that weekend
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that it is permissible to file a habeas corpus petition
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on behalf of another.
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It's even possible to do so
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without that individual's consent.
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I did the research in terms of the likelihood of success
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in terms of such a challenge
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and also research in terms of
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where does such a lawsuit have to be brought.
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And Mr. Yagman drafted a complaint on behalf of
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a coalition of clergy members, journalists, and professors
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and he filed it on an emergency basis
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in federal district court in Los Angeles
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on the Monday of Martin Luther King Day weekend.
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And what motivated you
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to get involved with him in that?
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I shared Mr. Yagman's concern
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that the United States was violating international law,
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to say nothing of American law.
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And I was very concerned
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there was no one there to represent the detainees.
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It seemed highly unlikely that they would have
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family members wherever they were coming from
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with the means or the knowledge
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to represent them at this stage.
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No other lawyers were involved.
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This was long before the law firms got involved
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in representing detainees
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and there was really a sense of, it was us or no one
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to protect them and to enforce the law.
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Could you tell us a little bit
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about what happened after you filed the lawsuit?
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The lawsuit was filed
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on the Monday of Martin Luther King day weekend.
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My name was on it as co-counsel.
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By coincidence I was flying from Los Angeles, where I lived,
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to New York, where I was giving a speech
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the next day, Tuesday.
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And when I landed after midnight in New York,
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I turned on my cell phone
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and the message box was completely full.
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It was entirely messages from journalists at that stage,
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all of whom wanted to interview me.
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I had invitations to appear
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on all of the morning talk shows the next day.
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Now I think the logistics
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of my speaking commitment made it impossible.
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I also made the choice
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that the complaint should speak for itself,
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that I didn't want to be seen
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that I was doing this to get publicity.
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One of the mistakes, in hindsight,
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was not accepting those media invitations
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because I think what I missed was the opportunity
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to say to whoever was listening
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that the United States wasn't following international law,
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wasn't following our own constitutional principles.
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The reality is a complaint is read by relatively few people.
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I was given a national platform. I didn't use it.
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And no one was expressing that view at that time.
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The other thing that happened was
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when I woke up the next morning,
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I turned on my computer and I had well over 200 emails.
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They were the most nasty and vicious emails
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I think I had received to that point.
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Many wished me and my family dead.
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This was January of 2002.
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It was just several months after September 11th.
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And I discovered that people were not at all sympathetic
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to representing Guantanamo detainees
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or asserting their rights.
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I found that even people who I knew, who were friends,
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were enormously critical in me being involved in this case.
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How did you respond to those emails and to your friends?
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I took the position then,
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and I've continued to follow it since,
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that any email that's nasty, I delete,
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that I don't respond, I don't engage.
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Any that's a reasoned argument,
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I'll respond by thanking them for writing
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but I generally won't engage.
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And for friends, I will engage
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and had some very heated discussions with people.
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Later that week, I was in New York to do a lecture
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and had dinner with some friends
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and it turned into very heated discussion
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of their not understanding how I could represent
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the Guantanamo detainees
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and my not understanding how they couldn't believe
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that these people deserve representation.
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Did people call you unpatriotic?
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And much worse too.
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There were plenty who called me unpatriotic.
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Literally, and I'm not exaggerating the least,
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the ones that said "I hope you and your family die
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in a bin Laden bombing."
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There were enough phone calls that day that
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one of the assistants at school called campus security
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feeling threatened by the phone calls that came
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and the campus security came in and investigated me.
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And my response was, "But I didn't do anything wrong here."
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How'd your family handle?
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Did they get any comments or...
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At the beginning I was forwarding
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some of the more outlandish messages to my wife
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just to sort of share what I was receiving.
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Then she said she just didn't want to see them.
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And after that, we just didn't talk about it.
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I think that I mentioned in passing
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to a Daily Journal reporter
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the nature of the email I received
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and he said, "Send them to me."
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And I forwarded him a sample.
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And then I think he wrote a column
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in the Daily Journal that quoted and summarized these.
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So there's still some record of them.
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But to say they were vicious and nasty
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is a tremendous understatement.
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To say they bothered me, they really didn't.
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I mean, I didn't feel personally threatened.
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I didn't think that anybody was going to come after me.
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I just hadn't realized the nerve
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that this touched for people
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and their sense that the individuals of Guantanamo
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shouldn't have representation.
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I mean, it's interesting.
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Oh, go ahead.
Sorry.
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We talk now in February, March 2010,
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which is eight years later.
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And it's so interesting that just last week,
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there's sharp criticism from some of the lawyers
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who were representing Guantanamo detainees
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so one would think after eight years that it passed
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but it hasn't completely, so.
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Did the FBI ever contact you
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after your name came out or (indistinct).
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The only time the FBI contact me
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was when I applied for my security clearance
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in connection with representing a detainee
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and wanting to go to Guantanamo.
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And subsequently, what happened?
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I don't want the particulars of the lawsuit,
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but what happened then in terms
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of your involvement with Guantanamo,
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how did you end up getting involved with detainees?
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I argued the case in federal district court
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in Los Angeles in February.
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Paul Clement, the then deputy solicitor general,
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flew out from Washington to argue the other side
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which showed how seriously the government was taking this.
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The judge dismissed the case and then I argued it
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in the United States Court of Appeals
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for the Ninth Circuit in July.
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Paul Clement, again, flew out to argue
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for the United States.
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The Los Angeles Times wrote a story about the argument
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and the brother of a detainee, Salem Ghareby's brother,
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Baleid Ghareby, contacted Mr. Yagman and said,
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"I have a brother in Guantanamo.
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Would you represent him?"
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Since ultimately both the federal district court
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and the Ninth Circuit dismissed on grounds
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that we didn't have standing, that we didn't have
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a sufficient relationship with the detainee,
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this then ended that issue and allowed us to go forward
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on behalf of a particular individual.
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So we asked the court whether we could simply
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amend our complaint,
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that instead of representing all the detainees
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we'd represent this one detainee
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but that the complaint would be the same.
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The judge said yes, we could do that.
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And they dismissed the complaint nonetheless.
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And then we went to the Ninth Circuit
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and we won in December 2003.
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What did you win?
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The Ninth Circuit ruled that we could go forward
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with a lawsuit on behalf of a Guantanamo detainee,
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that we could file a habeas corpus petition
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on behalf of Salem Ghareby.
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This is the same conclusion that
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the United States Supreme Court came to
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in June of 2004 in Rasul v. Bush,
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though I can say in all honesty
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that I was part of winning the first case
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on behalf of a Guantanamo detainee in any court.
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Were you ever working
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with the attorneys in the East Coast
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on any of these cases, or you were pretty much a loner
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in all of this?
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We started before any of the lawyers on the East Coast
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were representing detainees.
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Though by the time the case even got to the Ninth Circuit,
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the first of the family members had contacted lawyers
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and had presentation.
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And certainly after a while,
268
00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:18.430
there were many law firms involved
269
00:11:18.430 --> 00:11:19.690
in representing detainees.
270
00:11:19.690 --> 00:11:22.870
There is a listserv among Guantanamo lawyers,
271
00:11:22.870 --> 00:11:27.870
and I certainly benefited from that listserv,
272
00:11:27.900 --> 00:11:29.540
at times when the case was very involved
273
00:11:29.540 --> 00:11:31.020
and there were certain lawyers
274
00:11:31.020 --> 00:11:33.230
who I was in closer communication with
275
00:11:33.230 --> 00:11:35.430
and benefited from their counsel and wisdom.
276
00:11:36.640 --> 00:11:39.370
And when did you finally get to go?
277
00:11:39.370 --> 00:11:41.680
Did you apply to go to Guantanamo soon after that,
278
00:11:41.680 --> 00:11:43.860
or when did you first apply?
279
00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:47.770
I applied for security clearance
280
00:11:48.610 --> 00:11:51.620
in the fall of 2004,
281
00:11:51.620 --> 00:11:53.770
which is after the Supreme Court said
282
00:11:53.770 --> 00:11:56.070
that the Guantanamo detainees could go forward
283
00:11:56.070 --> 00:11:57.623
with habeas corpus petitions.
284
00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:00.260
As is the nature of these things,
285
00:12:00.260 --> 00:12:05.260
it took some time for them to process me and gain approval.
286
00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:07.310
All I remember is it took a while,
287
00:12:07.310 --> 00:12:10.890
and then it took a while to get the schedule,
288
00:12:10.890 --> 00:12:13.240
to go down to see my client for the first time.
289
00:12:14.340 --> 00:12:16.550
There were many instances of false starts,
290
00:12:16.550 --> 00:12:21.000
of scheduling it and they would cancel.
291
00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:23.079
Scheduling it, they would cancel.
292
00:12:23.079 --> 00:12:23.943
Who's "they"?
293
00:12:23.943 --> 00:12:25.570
They being the representatives
294
00:12:25.570 --> 00:12:28.230
of the Department of Defense, who I was dealing with.
295
00:12:28.230 --> 00:12:29.940
You had to schedule with them?
296
00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:31.260
That's correct.
297
00:12:31.260 --> 00:12:33.440
And were you not permitted to apply
298
00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:37.490
soon as you had won that case in November of '03?
299
00:12:37.490 --> 00:12:41.470
Well, when we won our case in December of '03,
300
00:12:41.470 --> 00:12:43.868
that case, the government then sought cert on,
301
00:12:43.868 --> 00:12:45.697
a Supreme Court review on,
302
00:12:45.697 --> 00:12:48.550
and that case was held pending the Supreme Court's
303
00:12:48.550 --> 00:12:51.150
deciding the two cases from the DC Circuit,
304
00:12:51.150 --> 00:12:52.810
Rasul and al Odah.
305
00:12:52.810 --> 00:12:56.370
So I don't think anybody was cleared for security clearances
306
00:12:56.370 --> 00:12:59.400
until the Supreme Court had decided Rasul in June 2004.
307
00:12:59.400 --> 00:13:02.990
And I immediately applied for security clearance then,
308
00:13:02.990 --> 00:13:07.227
and after the Rasul case came down,
309
00:13:07.227 --> 00:13:09.920
our case also went to the district court.
310
00:13:09.920 --> 00:13:11.743
We were assigned to Reggie Walton.
311
00:13:13.413 --> 00:13:15.660
Our case was filed in Los Angeles.
312
00:13:15.660 --> 00:13:17.640
One of the things that the Supreme Court decided
313
00:13:17.640 --> 00:13:19.210
in June of 2004
314
00:13:19.210 --> 00:13:21.540
was that habeas petitions needed to be brought
315
00:13:21.540 --> 00:13:23.800
in the district where somebody was held,
316
00:13:23.800 --> 00:13:25.590
or if someone's held outside the country,
317
00:13:25.590 --> 00:13:27.920
in the district where the custodian was located.
318
00:13:27.920 --> 00:13:31.020
So our case got transferred to Washington, DC
319
00:13:31.020 --> 00:13:32.820
in the federal district court there.
320
00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:36.968
You described some of the problems
321
00:13:36.968 --> 00:13:39.142
that DOD threw in front of you.
322
00:13:39.142 --> 00:13:43.233
You said you couldn't get your permission so easily.
323
00:13:45.150 --> 00:13:46.980
Obviously the largest was just waiting
324
00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:48.950
for the security clearance.
325
00:13:48.950 --> 00:13:52.400
It did come, but it took many months.
326
00:13:52.400 --> 00:13:54.140
In terms of coordinating visits,
327
00:13:54.140 --> 00:13:56.650
I remember having to coordinate with somebody from the DOD
328
00:13:56.650 --> 00:13:58.980
and also I think Terry Warden was his name,
329
00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:00.450
of the Department of Justice.
330
00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:03.230
And they only would allow so many at a time
331
00:14:03.230 --> 00:14:07.391
and it was dependent on their windows being available
332
00:14:07.391 --> 00:14:10.170
and the like, and there were a couple of instances
333
00:14:10.170 --> 00:14:12.510
we would schedule and it would get canceled.
334
00:14:12.510 --> 00:14:14.420
And there were certainly instances where I would schedule
335
00:14:14.420 --> 00:14:16.100
and then something would come up for me.
336
00:14:16.100 --> 00:14:18.550
So it took a while to arrange to be able to get down
337
00:14:18.550 --> 00:14:19.850
to see Mr. Ghareby.
338
00:14:19.850 --> 00:14:20.710
Had you been in touch
339
00:14:20.710 --> 00:14:22.540
with Mr. Ghareby at all?
340
00:14:22.540 --> 00:14:24.590
Well, I had sent him letters to inform him
341
00:14:24.590 --> 00:14:25.680
that we were representing him
342
00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:28.160
and I was in touch through Mr. Yagman
343
00:14:28.160 --> 00:14:30.630
with Mr. Ghareby's brother, Baleid.
344
00:14:30.630 --> 00:14:31.920
Do you know if Mr. Ghareby
345
00:14:31.920 --> 00:14:32.990
received your letters?
346
00:14:32.990 --> 00:14:34.083
I don't recall.
347
00:14:34.967 --> 00:14:36.410
Could you describe
348
00:14:36.410 --> 00:14:38.080
the first time you flew down to Guantanamo
349
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:39.233
and what that was like?
350
00:14:41.060 --> 00:14:41.963
Surreal.
351
00:14:42.810 --> 00:14:47.810
It's a beautiful island with beaches,
352
00:14:48.280 --> 00:14:51.730
but with very bleak prisons there.
353
00:14:51.730 --> 00:14:53.890
I remember saying to people
354
00:14:53.890 --> 00:14:56.850
that if the United States that built luxury hotels
355
00:14:56.850 --> 00:15:00.230
rather than the garrisons that they did there
356
00:15:00.230 --> 00:15:02.663
they could have gone a long way to solving the deficit.
357
00:15:03.830 --> 00:15:06.290
And what kind of plane did you take
358
00:15:06.290 --> 00:15:09.503
and how was the experience when you first got off the plane?
359
00:15:11.060 --> 00:15:14.053
I think it's Sunset Airlines, Sunrise Airlines?
360
00:15:16.217 --> 00:15:18.240
But it was whatever the airline is that you take.
361
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:19.410
And if I remember right,
362
00:15:19.410 --> 00:15:22.660
you fly to Fort Lauderdale and then change planes.
363
00:15:22.660 --> 00:15:24.910
And I was surprised,
364
00:15:24.910 --> 00:15:26.570
'cause I think of Cuba as being so close
365
00:15:26.570 --> 00:15:28.930
to the United States, that it's about a two hour flight
366
00:15:28.930 --> 00:15:31.023
from Florida to go down there.
367
00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:36.990
And one thing that was so interesting is
368
00:15:36.990 --> 00:15:41.990
how the military escorts are very young.
369
00:15:42.330 --> 00:15:45.040
Every place there's military escorts.
370
00:15:45.040 --> 00:15:50.040
And they seemed like kids to me, very officious.
371
00:15:53.134 --> 00:15:58.134
I mean, everything is very, very regimented
372
00:15:58.260 --> 00:16:02.480
and the lawyers all stay in a different place than,
373
00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:04.500
for example, journalists get to stay.
374
00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:07.050
Could you describe exactly how that was
375
00:16:07.050 --> 00:16:08.210
when you got off the plane,
376
00:16:08.210 --> 00:16:10.710
and were you nervous or tense at all?
377
00:16:10.710 --> 00:16:15.710
And who met you when you got off the plane and (indistinct)
378
00:16:16.275 --> 00:16:18.890
I don't recall being nervous at all.
379
00:16:18.890 --> 00:16:21.600
I didn't feel that I was in any danger going there,
380
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.100
given the military presence.
381
00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:25.250
The last thing I would feel was any danger.
382
00:16:26.260 --> 00:16:30.890
I remember having to, before going there,
383
00:16:30.890 --> 00:16:32.830
have a huge amount of paperwork in order.
384
00:16:32.830 --> 00:16:36.197
And my main degree of tension was that I screw up
385
00:16:36.197 --> 00:16:37.850
and not bringing some of the papers
386
00:16:37.850 --> 00:16:39.300
that I was supposed to bring.
387
00:16:40.730 --> 00:16:43.040
There were other lawyers there
388
00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:45.070
at the same time that I was.
389
00:16:45.070 --> 00:16:45.903
And...
390
00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:48.980
And then they escort you somewhere
391
00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:51.118
when you got off the plane?
392
00:16:51.118 --> 00:16:53.720
They escorted, and I remember going to the,
393
00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.170
they took us to a barracks where we were staying.
394
00:16:57.164 --> 00:17:01.540
And I remember that you can't have a cell phone there
395
00:17:01.540 --> 00:17:03.160
but you can buy calling cards
396
00:17:03.160 --> 00:17:05.590
and using the calling cards to call home.
397
00:17:05.590 --> 00:17:07.080
And how was it the next morning
398
00:17:07.080 --> 00:17:08.580
when you went to visit your client?
399
00:17:08.580 --> 00:17:10.520
Could you describe that?
400
00:17:10.520 --> 00:17:12.540
I remember having to go over water.
401
00:17:12.540 --> 00:17:13.587
I remember you took a boat
402
00:17:13.587 --> 00:17:15.840
and then to get from where the lawyers stay
403
00:17:15.840 --> 00:17:17.940
to where the detainees are,
404
00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:20.370
that you go over water.
405
00:17:20.370 --> 00:17:25.270
I remember that the military personnel were very officious.
406
00:17:25.270 --> 00:17:27.070
I remember that the other lawyers,
407
00:17:27.070 --> 00:17:28.230
at least some of them who were there,
408
00:17:28.230 --> 00:17:30.440
only a few had been before
409
00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:32.580
and so had more of a chatting relationship
410
00:17:32.580 --> 00:17:34.223
with the military officers.
411
00:17:36.870 --> 00:17:40.267
And we had a translator with us
412
00:17:40.267 --> 00:17:45.267
and I remember being taken to the place
413
00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:49.430
where we were able to talk to Mr. Ghareby.
414
00:17:49.430 --> 00:17:51.300
And most of all, what I was struck by
415
00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:53.000
was the chance to see him.
416
00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:54.150
As you can tell, I don't remember
417
00:17:54.150 --> 00:17:56.640
that many of the details of the island.
418
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.990
I was there and I remember how beautiful it was
419
00:17:58.990 --> 00:18:00.710
and how bleak the garrisons
420
00:18:00.710 --> 00:18:04.020
but it was really striking where we talked to Mr. Ghareby.
421
00:18:04.020 --> 00:18:08.083
It was a dirt floor.
422
00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:13.593
He was shackled and chained to his chair.
423
00:18:14.630 --> 00:18:17.613
There was a small table not unlike the table next to me.
424
00:18:19.390 --> 00:18:21.523
I was there. The interpreter was there.
425
00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:29.053
And it was very powerful to see him as a person.
426
00:18:30.090 --> 00:18:31.770
One of the things that I've tried to do
427
00:18:31.770 --> 00:18:34.060
as I've talked about Guantanamo
428
00:18:34.060 --> 00:18:35.800
is to describe as a person
429
00:18:35.800 --> 00:18:36.920
'cause I think it's one thing
430
00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:39.710
if it's just the number of people that are there
431
00:18:39.710 --> 00:18:41.740
or if they get characterized in some way
432
00:18:41.740 --> 00:18:45.310
as terrorists or more accurately, alleged terrorists.
433
00:18:45.310 --> 00:18:47.420
But it's another thing to describe them as a human being.
434
00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:52.070
He's a man of about my height, about 5'7".
435
00:18:52.070 --> 00:18:55.580
He's slimmer in build than I am.
436
00:18:55.580 --> 00:18:59.180
He has a long beard graying towards the end.
437
00:18:59.180 --> 00:19:02.153
He would often play with his beard as he was talking.
438
00:19:06.954 --> 00:19:09.430
He seemed very articulate and eloquent.
439
00:19:09.430 --> 00:19:12.380
Of course, we were hearing through a translator.
440
00:19:12.380 --> 00:19:14.670
Very soft spoken.
441
00:19:14.670 --> 00:19:17.630
His fingers were deformed.
442
00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:20.880
Some of his fingers were fused together and
443
00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:28.140
the temptation, since it's unusual, was wanting to look
444
00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:29.340
and try to figure out what had happened.
445
00:19:29.340 --> 00:19:31.460
And he didn't have nails on some of his fingers
446
00:19:31.460 --> 00:19:32.293
and the like.
447
00:19:33.740 --> 00:19:36.540
He seemed very forthcoming as we spoke.
448
00:19:36.540 --> 00:19:39.440
He was very concerned about his family.
449
00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:41.960
He's married. He has three children.
450
00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:43.740
He'd never seen his youngest child.
451
00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:45.160
His youngest child was born
452
00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:47.470
after he was apprehended in Afghanistan.
453
00:19:47.470 --> 00:19:48.900
And a lot of the conversation with him
454
00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:50.723
was just trying to get his story.
455
00:19:52.704 --> 00:19:55.704
How were you feeling listening to his story?
456
00:19:56.793 --> 00:19:58.190
Was it what you expected
457
00:19:58.190 --> 00:20:02.207
or did you not expect anything when you walked in there?
458
00:20:03.280 --> 00:20:04.903
Was it very moving?
459
00:20:05.851 --> 00:20:08.360
It was very moving in the sense that
460
00:20:10.370 --> 00:20:15.000
no matter how much I knew he was a human being,
461
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.770
sitting across from him
462
00:20:17.650 --> 00:20:19.970
no further than I'm sitting away from you
463
00:20:19.970 --> 00:20:22.083
made him real as a human being.
464
00:20:23.149 --> 00:20:27.630
I became involved because I cared about the cause
465
00:20:27.630 --> 00:20:29.260
and I was representing people,
466
00:20:29.260 --> 00:20:33.810
but now here was the real human being and he was in prison.
467
00:20:33.810 --> 00:20:37.750
And he had been there at that point for several years,
468
00:20:37.750 --> 00:20:40.530
and now has been there many more years since.
469
00:20:40.530 --> 00:20:41.363
Did you think
470
00:20:41.363 --> 00:20:42.590
you could help him at that time?
471
00:20:48.870 --> 00:20:51.700
To me, one of the most discouraging things
472
00:20:51.700 --> 00:20:56.410
in representing him has been the pace of the litigation.
473
00:20:56.410 --> 00:21:01.280
None of the courts has felt any need to expedite this.
474
00:21:01.280 --> 00:21:06.000
Here's a man who's been in custody since July 2002.
475
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.340
We sit in March of 2010.
476
00:21:08.340 --> 00:21:10.740
He's still never really had a meaningful hearing.
477
00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:12.450
He's had no trial.
478
00:21:12.450 --> 00:21:16.790
And nobody seems to care about the pace of the litigation.
479
00:21:16.790 --> 00:21:18.700
The DC circuit,
480
00:21:18.700 --> 00:21:21.710
from the time the Supreme Court decided in 2004,
481
00:21:21.710 --> 00:21:25.120
doesn't end up deciding its case involving the detainees
482
00:21:25.120 --> 00:21:26.890
for a few more years.
483
00:21:26.890 --> 00:21:29.850
And so what was discouraging to me then,
484
00:21:29.850 --> 00:21:34.410
is discouraging now is just, nobody seems to care
485
00:21:34.410 --> 00:21:37.210
that these are human beings who every day are in prison.
486
00:21:38.510 --> 00:21:39.980
Did you see other detainees
487
00:21:39.980 --> 00:21:41.447
while you were there?
488
00:21:41.447 --> 00:21:45.030
No. It was very carefully orchestrated.
489
00:21:45.030 --> 00:21:47.820
So we were taken by military personnel
490
00:21:47.820 --> 00:21:50.380
to the place where he was to be questioned.
491
00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:52.400
We questioned him til lunch.
492
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.980
He was then taken away. Questioned him again.
493
00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:58.470
I know that we were interrupted 'cause he was very devout
494
00:21:58.470 --> 00:22:00.240
and he wanted his time to pray
495
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.263
at the intervals where there was prayer.
496
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:04.690
And we'd left him alone during that time.
497
00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:05.523
When you say "we,"
498
00:22:05.523 --> 00:22:07.190
was there someone else with you?
499
00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:08.023
There was.
500
00:22:08.023 --> 00:22:09.720
There was a lawyer
501
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:11.980
from the Center for Constitutional Rights with me.
502
00:22:11.980 --> 00:22:13.580
Who also asked him questions?
503
00:22:13.580 --> 00:22:14.413
Yes.
504
00:22:14.413 --> 00:22:16.451
How did you find a translator?
505
00:22:16.451 --> 00:22:17.284
Through her.
506
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.480
And did your client believe in you?
507
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:23.400
Did he think you were going to help him?
508
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:24.233
I don't know.
509
00:22:26.156 --> 00:22:27.740
Did he ask anything of you
510
00:22:27.740 --> 00:22:29.160
in terms of his family?
511
00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:31.580
He wanted us to get in touch with his family.
512
00:22:31.580 --> 00:22:34.900
He wanted to know what we had heard from his brother.
513
00:22:34.900 --> 00:22:36.620
He knew that it was through his brother
514
00:22:36.620 --> 00:22:38.580
that we were representing him.
515
00:22:38.580 --> 00:22:40.890
He wanted to know what we'd heard from his wife.
516
00:22:40.890 --> 00:22:43.230
He was receiving letters from her.
517
00:22:43.230 --> 00:22:47.250
He wanted to us to try to get word back to her and the like.
518
00:22:47.250 --> 00:22:49.330
How did the military treat you
519
00:22:49.330 --> 00:22:50.197
during that time?
520
00:22:50.197 --> 00:22:53.407
Did they try to block any of the questions?
521
00:22:53.407 --> 00:22:55.302
No.
522
00:22:55.302 --> 00:22:58.290
I don't remember if they were in the room, even.
523
00:22:58.290 --> 00:22:59.780
They probably were. I don't remember.
524
00:22:59.780 --> 00:23:01.670
But no way did they interfere.
525
00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:03.830
The interesting thing was,
526
00:23:03.830 --> 00:23:05.790
and this was my experience all the time.
527
00:23:05.790 --> 00:23:08.200
I tried to take very detailed notes
528
00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:09.970
because I didn't want to forget anything.
529
00:23:09.970 --> 00:23:12.417
And there were certain things that he was asking us to do
530
00:23:12.417 --> 00:23:14.430
and I wanted to be sure to try to do those things
531
00:23:14.430 --> 00:23:16.610
that he was asking us to do.
532
00:23:16.610 --> 00:23:18.270
And so I was taking notes
533
00:23:18.270 --> 00:23:21.280
and you have to have your notes cleared.
534
00:23:21.280 --> 00:23:22.113
And-
535
00:23:22.113 --> 00:23:23.360
Can you explain that?
536
00:23:23.360 --> 00:23:25.387
Sure. They take your notes away from you.
537
00:23:25.387 --> 00:23:27.065
And after they, I'm sorry.
538
00:23:27.065 --> 00:23:28.330
At what point?
539
00:23:28.330 --> 00:23:29.580
At the end of each day.
540
00:23:30.530 --> 00:23:32.190
They take the notes away
541
00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:34.910
and you have to put them in an envelope
542
00:23:34.910 --> 00:23:35.890
and you give them to them.
543
00:23:35.890 --> 00:23:38.940
And then if they read them and it's all okay,
544
00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:40.330
you can have your notes back.
545
00:23:40.330 --> 00:23:43.520
My problem is they couldn't read my handwriting.
546
00:23:43.520 --> 00:23:47.780
And so I would have to go to the secured facility
547
00:23:47.780 --> 00:23:52.010
and dictate so that they could clear my notes
548
00:23:52.010 --> 00:23:54.070
because of the handwriting problems.
549
00:23:54.070 --> 00:23:54.903
Could you describe
550
00:23:54.903 --> 00:23:56.753
what the secured facility is for?
551
00:23:58.886 --> 00:24:01.410
It's a kind of place that's almost surreal.
552
00:24:01.410 --> 00:24:02.877
Is it in Guantanamo?
553
00:24:02.877 --> 00:24:05.548
No, the secured facility's in Washington, DC and-
554
00:24:05.548 --> 00:24:06.670
So you mean your notes
555
00:24:06.670 --> 00:24:07.503
were taken from Guantanamo-
556
00:24:07.503 --> 00:24:09.820
From Guantanamo to Washington.
557
00:24:09.820 --> 00:24:11.450
And then you have to go.
558
00:24:11.450 --> 00:24:15.150
And the secured facility is just that.
559
00:24:15.150 --> 00:24:16.780
It's a secured facility
560
00:24:16.780 --> 00:24:19.733
and you can't take things out, you can't bring things in.
561
00:24:20.990 --> 00:24:23.223
And who reads your notes there?
562
00:24:24.320 --> 00:24:25.370
Military officials.
563
00:24:27.910 --> 00:24:30.910
My notes had nothing in any way controversial
564
00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:32.620
but they couldn't read my handwriting
565
00:24:32.620 --> 00:24:34.860
so instead of getting them sent back,
566
00:24:34.860 --> 00:24:36.210
I would have to go to the secured facility
567
00:24:36.210 --> 00:24:37.043
to take care of it.
568
00:24:37.043 --> 00:24:39.470
And they didn't redact anything you wrote?
569
00:24:39.470 --> 00:24:41.320
I didn't have anything at all.
570
00:24:41.320 --> 00:24:42.720
And I knew when I was taking the notes
571
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.140
there was nothing in there that was at all controversial.
572
00:24:45.140 --> 00:24:48.670
That it to say, more than anything else,
573
00:24:48.670 --> 00:24:53.460
I was there to get his story in his words
574
00:24:53.460 --> 00:24:55.040
through a translator.
575
00:24:55.040 --> 00:24:57.210
Also, he was very concerned
576
00:24:57.210 --> 00:25:00.060
about some things that he wanted to us to do.
577
00:25:00.060 --> 00:25:03.410
Some things that to him were most important.
578
00:25:03.410 --> 00:25:06.710
And so I didn't expect that.
579
00:25:06.710 --> 00:25:09.810
That was a big part of what it turned out
580
00:25:09.810 --> 00:25:12.289
that the time spent with him was about.
581
00:25:12.289 --> 00:25:14.270
Do you think the military
582
00:25:14.270 --> 00:25:16.720
was listening in on your conversation?
583
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:18.163
I don't remember.
584
00:25:18.163 --> 00:25:21.781
I have to admit I accepted whatever was
585
00:25:21.781 --> 00:25:24.238
the conditions of the questioning.
586
00:25:24.238 --> 00:25:26.550
I don't think so.
587
00:25:26.550 --> 00:25:28.155
I think they stood outside of the room
588
00:25:28.155 --> 00:25:30.053
during all of the questioning.
589
00:25:30.911 --> 00:25:33.789
Was it filmed, the interview?
590
00:25:33.789 --> 00:25:34.622
No.
591
00:25:38.260 --> 00:25:39.670
Could you describe what happened
592
00:25:40.576 --> 00:25:41.700
after you left the room?
593
00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:43.695
Did you just return back to...
594
00:25:43.695 --> 00:25:45.833
I remember we were searched again.
595
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:52.113
Then I remember going to the area where,
596
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:55.240
on that side of the island, where there was a base
597
00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:58.260
and I remember there being a McDonald's there
598
00:25:58.260 --> 00:26:03.260
and how strange it was to have gone from talking to this man
599
00:26:04.120 --> 00:26:09.120
in a corrugated metal hut with dirt floors,
600
00:26:09.940 --> 00:26:11.780
where he was shackled and chained,
601
00:26:11.780 --> 00:26:14.280
to the banality of eating at McDonald's.
602
00:26:14.280 --> 00:26:18.140
And then we were taken again on the boat across the island.
603
00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:19.900
Who left the room first,
604
00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:23.330
you or the lawyers or the client?
605
00:26:23.330 --> 00:26:25.710
I think we did, if I remember right.
606
00:26:25.710 --> 00:26:27.260
I know we also left during times,
607
00:26:27.260 --> 00:26:29.910
it was for him to pray and he had a prayer rug there.
608
00:26:31.270 --> 00:26:32.400
Could he talk to you,
609
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.830
you don't have to reveal anything
610
00:26:33.830 --> 00:26:36.280
but he could talk to you about his conditions?
611
00:26:36.280 --> 00:26:37.113
Yes.
612
00:26:37.113 --> 00:26:39.400
And we did ask him about his conditions.
613
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:40.233
And his treatment?
614
00:26:40.233 --> 00:26:42.381
We did ask him about his treatment.
615
00:26:42.381 --> 00:26:43.690
And none of that was censored
616
00:26:43.690 --> 00:26:47.100
in any of the notes you took?
617
00:26:47.100 --> 00:26:47.933
No.
618
00:26:48.801 --> 00:26:52.040
And in fairness, you know, it's the teacher in me,
619
00:26:52.040 --> 00:26:55.530
I don't remember to what extent in my notes
620
00:26:55.530 --> 00:26:57.063
I wrote of those things.
621
00:26:58.670 --> 00:27:03.620
I was much more focused on his story
622
00:27:03.620 --> 00:27:06.190
and again, the things that he wanted us to do for him.
623
00:27:06.190 --> 00:27:08.282
What did he want you to do?
624
00:27:08.282 --> 00:27:09.690
This is the first place where I think
625
00:27:09.690 --> 00:27:10.743
it's attorney-client privilege,
626
00:27:10.743 --> 00:27:13.400
that I don't think I should go there.
627
00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:15.620
'Cause the things that he asked me
628
00:27:15.620 --> 00:27:18.380
would still be relevant today.
629
00:27:18.380 --> 00:27:20.500
And why were you so interested in his story?
630
00:27:20.500 --> 00:27:22.560
Was it for the case or just-
631
00:27:22.560 --> 00:27:23.403
For the case.
632
00:27:25.070 --> 00:27:27.150
I was there as his lawyer
633
00:27:27.150 --> 00:27:32.150
and this was my chance to understand,
634
00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:34.340
how did he come to be in Guantanamo?
635
00:27:34.340 --> 00:27:36.619
And I wanted to know everything he wanted to tell me
636
00:27:36.619 --> 00:27:38.610
about, how did he come to be in Guantanamo?
637
00:27:38.610 --> 00:27:40.910
Did you learn something more
638
00:27:40.910 --> 00:27:43.590
about the whole essence of Guantanamo
639
00:27:43.590 --> 00:27:45.150
after this first interview?
640
00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:46.400
Is there something there?
641
00:27:48.330 --> 00:27:52.460
I think I can say without revealing anything classified
642
00:27:52.460 --> 00:27:54.870
or anything attorney-client privilege,
643
00:27:54.870 --> 00:27:56.820
'cause I'm gonna just tell you my impressions,
644
00:27:56.820 --> 00:28:00.820
not what he said, is my impression was...
645
00:28:02.360 --> 00:28:03.700
Let me try this in my words.
646
00:28:03.700 --> 00:28:05.343
I had no idea why he was there,
647
00:28:06.220 --> 00:28:10.240
that it may be that I wasn't hearing the whole story
648
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.810
from him or I was hearing lies from him.
649
00:28:12.810 --> 00:28:16.150
It may be that he was being sincere and truthful
650
00:28:16.150 --> 00:28:18.660
but I really came away
651
00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:20.620
without any sense of why he was there.
652
00:28:20.620 --> 00:28:22.920
Without giving away attorney-client privilege,
653
00:28:25.010 --> 00:28:27.660
I wanted his story from the time he grew up.
654
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:30.160
And I wanted to know
655
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.070
up to the moment where he got apprehended.
656
00:28:32.070 --> 00:28:35.060
How did he come to be where he was apprehended?
657
00:28:35.060 --> 00:28:39.020
And I wanted his sense of why he got apprehended.
658
00:28:39.020 --> 00:28:44.020
And I came away with no sense of why he was in Guantanamo.
659
00:28:44.580 --> 00:28:46.130
I walked away thinking
660
00:28:46.130 --> 00:28:49.400
this could be a very dangerous man
661
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:50.630
or this could be a man who was just
662
00:28:50.630 --> 00:28:52.143
entirely there by mistake.
663
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:53.950
Did that surprise you?
664
00:28:53.950 --> 00:28:56.613
Were you expecting that kind of response in yourself?
665
00:28:58.566 --> 00:29:00.370
I'm not sure what I was expecting.
666
00:29:00.370 --> 00:29:01.880
I certainly didn't expect that
667
00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:03.210
if he was a dangerous terrorist
668
00:29:03.210 --> 00:29:06.470
he was going to tell me he was a dangerous terrorist.
669
00:29:06.470 --> 00:29:09.930
On the other hand, nor did I expect
670
00:29:09.930 --> 00:29:13.720
the sense of bewilderment of why he was there
671
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:14.663
that I perceived.
672
00:29:18.020 --> 00:29:21.178
So did you go back a second time?
673
00:29:21.178 --> 00:29:22.384
I did.
674
00:29:22.384 --> 00:29:25.790
And I think you and I were there once at the same time.
675
00:29:25.790 --> 00:29:26.623
Right.
676
00:29:26.623 --> 00:29:28.220
And my sense of dates is so messed up.
677
00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:29.920
That was May 2007.
678
00:29:30.850 --> 00:29:33.080
That was the second time I was there.
679
00:29:33.080 --> 00:29:35.210
Before we go to the second time,
680
00:29:35.210 --> 00:29:38.000
on the first time, did you spend more than one day with him?
681
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:39.472
I was there two days.
682
00:29:39.472 --> 00:29:40.570
I was there two days each time.
683
00:29:40.570 --> 00:29:42.640
Could you have spent longer than two days
684
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:45.230
or was that the DOD limit?
685
00:29:45.230 --> 00:29:46.403
I think that was my,
686
00:29:47.690 --> 00:29:50.910
in each instance it's being put in with the rest of my life
687
00:29:50.910 --> 00:29:53.750
and what amount of time seemed...
688
00:29:53.750 --> 00:29:57.180
I think I had the time I needed to get the information
689
00:29:57.180 --> 00:30:00.090
that I realistically could get from him.
690
00:30:00.090 --> 00:30:02.220
And I have some other questions
691
00:30:02.220 --> 00:30:05.340
about overall, but let's talk about the second visit.
692
00:30:05.340 --> 00:30:07.670
Was that any different, did you see a difference
693
00:30:07.670 --> 00:30:10.470
in the way they government responded to your presence
694
00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:11.480
as well as...
695
00:30:13.170 --> 00:30:14.003
No.
696
00:30:14.003 --> 00:30:17.620
They blur together to a great extent in my mind
697
00:30:17.620 --> 00:30:18.750
which is why it's hard to know
698
00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:20.030
which is the first, which second.
699
00:30:20.030 --> 00:30:24.163
The only main difference was that the second time,
700
00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:30.160
his impatience, he was more (indistinct)
701
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:32.480
He was more interested in what was happening,
702
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:33.850
what were we doing for him.
703
00:30:33.850 --> 00:30:36.533
But again, in both instances, very concerned about,
704
00:30:36.533 --> 00:30:37.920
were we in touch with his brother,
705
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.230
what we'd heard from his wife and the like.
706
00:30:40.230 --> 00:30:42.420
Were you able to reveal anything
707
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:43.520
about his family to him?
708
00:30:43.520 --> 00:30:45.113
There was no restrictions?
709
00:30:46.980 --> 00:30:50.220
We had a letter from his brother.
710
00:30:50.220 --> 00:30:52.270
I had a letter from his brother to deliver
711
00:30:52.270 --> 00:30:54.003
that they would not let me deliver.
712
00:30:55.330 --> 00:30:57.300
That's the only restriction that I remember,
713
00:30:57.300 --> 00:31:00.030
when I went the time that you were there, right.
714
00:31:00.030 --> 00:31:02.444
I had a letter from his brother that I couldn't deliver.
715
00:31:02.444 --> 00:31:03.940
Were you moved?
716
00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:04.890
Yeah. Same thing.
717
00:31:07.180 --> 00:31:08.350
Right.
718
00:31:08.350 --> 00:31:10.890
And I knew the second 'cause of the...
719
00:31:12.120 --> 00:31:13.870
Right, I've been through it before.
720
00:31:14.830 --> 00:31:16.150
I had heard stories
721
00:31:16.150 --> 00:31:18.870
that sometimes some of the detainees were told
722
00:31:18.870 --> 00:31:20.610
that their lawyers were Jewish
723
00:31:20.610 --> 00:31:22.792
and they shouldn't trust them.
724
00:31:22.792 --> 00:31:23.966
Have you heard any of those stories
725
00:31:23.966 --> 00:31:25.218
or did that happened to you?
726
00:31:25.218 --> 00:31:26.580
I had heard those stories.
727
00:31:26.580 --> 00:31:28.610
And in fact, I think some of those stories
728
00:31:28.610 --> 00:31:32.500
were circulating right before I went May of 2007,
729
00:31:32.500 --> 00:31:35.650
right before one of the times that I went.
730
00:31:35.650 --> 00:31:38.743
And I was sensitive 'cause I am Jewish,
731
00:31:40.220 --> 00:31:45.040
but I did not find that there was any reticence on his part
732
00:31:45.040 --> 00:31:46.710
of talking with me.
733
00:31:46.710 --> 00:31:49.310
I do know that other lawyers became involved
734
00:31:49.310 --> 00:31:50.980
in this case later
735
00:31:50.980 --> 00:31:52.880
and he did not want to meet with them
736
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:54.120
in some of their later visits.
737
00:31:54.120 --> 00:31:55.780
And didn't meet with them in some later visits.
738
00:31:55.780 --> 00:31:58.906
But I can't say whether that's based on religion at all.
739
00:31:58.906 --> 00:32:00.945
Did he trust you as a lawyer
740
00:32:00.945 --> 00:32:01.778
from the beginning?
741
00:32:01.778 --> 00:32:03.701
Did he believe you were his lawyer
742
00:32:03.701 --> 00:32:06.260
and that you weren't a government official?
743
00:32:06.260 --> 00:32:07.537
I would have no way to know that.
744
00:32:07.537 --> 00:32:08.613
The only thing I can tell you is
745
00:32:08.613 --> 00:32:10.523
that he was willing to talk.
746
00:32:11.426 --> 00:32:15.540
He was willing to meet with me, but to begin with,
747
00:32:15.540 --> 00:32:18.090
it's so hard when you're dealing with a translator.
748
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:21.060
It's not the same as a conversation
749
00:32:21.060 --> 00:32:23.840
because you have the long pause as well,
750
00:32:23.840 --> 00:32:26.360
waiting for the translator to translate his words
751
00:32:26.360 --> 00:32:27.193
and the long pauses
752
00:32:27.193 --> 00:32:29.230
while waiting for the translator to translate my words.
753
00:32:29.230 --> 00:32:32.923
And so it makes an unusual conversation to begin with.
754
00:32:34.830 --> 00:32:37.240
So many of the cues you can pick up,
755
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:39.830
either for language or cultural reasons,
756
00:32:39.830 --> 00:32:41.430
you can't interpret.
757
00:32:41.430 --> 00:32:43.670
And it's just such a different situation
758
00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:44.860
when you're talking with somebody
759
00:32:44.860 --> 00:32:46.830
where that person's sitting with shackles on
760
00:32:46.830 --> 00:32:49.117
and you're sitting across from them
761
00:32:49.117 --> 00:32:51.610
and the military presence is outside the door.
762
00:32:51.610 --> 00:32:53.750
So I have no way to assess the extent to which
763
00:32:53.750 --> 00:32:55.080
he really believed I was his lawyer.
764
00:32:55.080 --> 00:32:56.900
Was it the same place
765
00:32:56.900 --> 00:32:58.650
that you interviewed him the second time
766
00:32:58.650 --> 00:33:00.380
with the same dirt floor?
767
00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:01.213
Yeah.
768
00:33:01.213 --> 00:33:04.400
I mean, I can't tell you it's the exact same conditions.
769
00:33:06.943 --> 00:33:08.673
Did he look any different?
770
00:33:08.673 --> 00:33:09.506
Did he look...
771
00:33:09.506 --> 00:33:11.130
More gray.
More gray.
772
00:33:11.130 --> 00:33:12.420
More gray.
He had aged.
773
00:33:12.420 --> 00:33:13.630
He had aged.
774
00:33:13.630 --> 00:33:15.260
And it wasn't that long between the visits,
775
00:33:15.260 --> 00:33:17.393
you know, a year between those visits.
776
00:33:17.393 --> 00:33:20.383
Was his attitude any different to you?
777
00:33:25.790 --> 00:33:27.490
Maybe a bit more aggressive
778
00:33:27.490 --> 00:33:31.703
about what was going on and why it was going on.
779
00:33:32.714 --> 00:33:33.840
Were you able to communicate
780
00:33:33.840 --> 00:33:35.130
with the translator to pick up
781
00:33:35.130 --> 00:33:38.540
some of those cultural norms
782
00:33:38.540 --> 00:33:40.270
that you couldn't identify yourself?
783
00:33:40.270 --> 00:33:42.410
The translators were wonderful
784
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:46.780
and I just admire them tremendously,
785
00:33:46.780 --> 00:33:50.017
but no, I don't think that there was any ability
786
00:33:50.017 --> 00:33:52.590
for the translator to be able to pick up.
787
00:33:52.590 --> 00:33:55.770
At least I wasn't there long enough
788
00:33:55.770 --> 00:33:57.660
or with the translators long enough
789
00:33:57.660 --> 00:33:59.873
to be able to pick up those kinds of cues.
790
00:34:01.110 --> 00:34:03.210
And it's the same translator both times?
791
00:34:03.210 --> 00:34:04.900
No, it was different translators.
792
00:34:04.900 --> 00:34:06.687
Did it make a difference, do you think?
793
00:34:06.687 --> 00:34:08.087
No. They're both terrific.
794
00:34:20.616 --> 00:34:23.040
Did you ever go to,
795
00:34:23.040 --> 00:34:24.500
none of the meetings you were told
796
00:34:24.500 --> 00:34:26.410
that he didn't want to meet with you
797
00:34:26.410 --> 00:34:30.380
or there were some other delay or anything?
798
00:34:30.380 --> 00:34:31.435
No.
799
00:34:31.435 --> 00:34:32.570
Not in your experience?
800
00:34:32.570 --> 00:34:34.170
During the time that I was there
801
00:34:34.170 --> 00:34:36.240
I was always able to meet with him.
802
00:34:36.240 --> 00:34:38.640
I was never told he didn't want to meet with me.
803
00:34:40.120 --> 00:34:42.300
There was never any problem in that regard.
804
00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:45.450
And after the second time,
805
00:34:45.450 --> 00:34:48.930
what caused you not to go back since then?
806
00:34:48.930 --> 00:34:51.130
Well, there was a long delay then
807
00:34:51.130 --> 00:34:53.840
in what was going on in terms of the legal case,
808
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:56.050
because everyone was waiting for what was going to happen
809
00:34:56.050 --> 00:34:57.400
with the Detainee Treatment Act
810
00:34:57.400 --> 00:34:58.550
and the Military Commission Act.
811
00:34:58.550 --> 00:35:02.333
And then some other lawyers became involved,
812
00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:05.010
lawyers from the Center for Constitutional Rights,
813
00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:07.650
a lawyer from American University law school,
814
00:35:07.650 --> 00:35:09.700
and they then went to visit him.
815
00:35:09.700 --> 00:35:13.470
And why would the statute, the legislation
816
00:35:13.470 --> 00:35:16.708
and the cases be impeding visits?
817
00:35:16.708 --> 00:35:18.115
What were people waiting on?
818
00:35:18.115 --> 00:35:20.417
Well, it wasn't that the statute was impeding the visits.
819
00:35:20.417 --> 00:35:24.100
We were waiting to see, what could we do for him.
820
00:35:24.100 --> 00:35:29.100
And if you recall, during this time, the DC Circuit ruled
821
00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:33.110
that these individuals were not entitled to proceed
822
00:35:33.110 --> 00:35:34.660
with habeas corpus
823
00:35:34.660 --> 00:35:37.520
and the Department of Justice made clear
824
00:35:37.520 --> 00:35:38.920
that if that happened,
825
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:41.730
then no longer were any of the lawyers going to be deemed
826
00:35:41.730 --> 00:35:45.180
to represent the detainees, 'cause we were habeas lawyers.
827
00:35:45.180 --> 00:35:46.950
If there were no habeas petitions pending,
828
00:35:46.950 --> 00:35:49.270
then we wouldn't be able to represent them.
829
00:35:49.270 --> 00:35:52.647
And so there was the limbo status of,
830
00:35:52.647 --> 00:35:56.116
well, his case was one of those before the Supreme Court,
831
00:35:56.116 --> 00:35:56.949
Boumediene,
832
00:35:56.949 --> 00:35:59.616
whether we would be able to continue to represent him
833
00:35:59.616 --> 00:36:02.270
and what our role would be, was going to depend
834
00:36:02.270 --> 00:36:04.143
on what the Supreme Court did in Boumediene.
835
00:36:04.143 --> 00:36:07.520
And other than going to see him,
836
00:36:07.520 --> 00:36:10.590
to keep him apprised of what was going on,
837
00:36:10.590 --> 00:36:13.091
there wasn't anything we could do for him at that stage.
838
00:36:13.091 --> 00:36:14.350
How were you feeling about that,
839
00:36:14.350 --> 00:36:16.890
watching this whole thing unfold?
840
00:36:16.890 --> 00:36:18.950
Well, if you recall,
841
00:36:18.950 --> 00:36:22.133
the Supreme Court initially denied cert in Boumediene.
842
00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:26.750
And I remember thinking then that the consequence of that
843
00:36:26.750 --> 00:36:29.670
if the DC circuit ruling stands
844
00:36:29.670 --> 00:36:32.710
is that he would no longer have me
845
00:36:32.710 --> 00:36:36.450
or Center of Constitutional Rights lawyers representing him.
846
00:36:36.450 --> 00:36:39.460
He would then have the military attorneys.
847
00:36:39.460 --> 00:36:40.720
Now, they're wonderful military attorneys,
848
00:36:40.720 --> 00:36:43.220
but he would no longer have any ability
849
00:36:43.220 --> 00:36:45.040
to have a habeas lawyer.
850
00:36:45.040 --> 00:36:46.610
And it was very discouraging
851
00:36:46.610 --> 00:36:48.937
when the Supreme Court denied Boumediene.
852
00:36:48.937 --> 00:36:50.390
And I remember the decision on the part
853
00:36:50.390 --> 00:36:52.890
of the Guantanamo lawyers to decide to ask
854
00:36:52.890 --> 00:36:55.730
the Supreme Court to reconsider the denial of cert.
855
00:36:55.730 --> 00:36:58.032
It's very unusual for the Supreme Court to grant cert
856
00:36:58.032 --> 00:37:00.383
after denying cert.
857
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:04.290
So were you discouraged, then,
858
00:37:04.290 --> 00:37:07.420
as to where America was going at that point?
859
00:37:07.420 --> 00:37:09.220
Did you think that it was just getting worse
860
00:37:09.220 --> 00:37:12.387
in terms of representation and the right of habeas?
861
00:37:16.810 --> 00:37:19.640
There's been tremendous discouragement on so many levels
862
00:37:19.640 --> 00:37:22.473
about where America's been going since September 11.
863
00:37:22.473 --> 00:37:25.370
The Guantanamo detainees who've been there
864
00:37:25.370 --> 00:37:28.780
something like Ghareby, for almost 8 years,
865
00:37:28.780 --> 00:37:31.640
is tremendously discouraging, but also of course
866
00:37:31.640 --> 00:37:34.460
Congress passes the Detainee Treatment Act
867
00:37:34.460 --> 00:37:38.010
that says that non-citizens held in Guantanamo
868
00:37:38.010 --> 00:37:40.630
can't have access to federal courts or habeas corpus.
869
00:37:40.630 --> 00:37:43.727
The Supreme Court in June of 2006 says,
870
00:37:43.727 --> 00:37:45.610
"Oh, but that only applies
871
00:37:45.610 --> 00:37:47.710
to those brought to Guantanamo in the future."
872
00:37:47.710 --> 00:37:50.110
Doesn't apply to those like Ghareby who were already there,
873
00:37:50.110 --> 00:37:52.090
which seems a real victory.
874
00:37:52.090 --> 00:37:55.730
Congress then comes back with the Military Commission Act
875
00:37:55.730 --> 00:37:58.290
that says non-citizens held as enemy combatants
876
00:37:58.290 --> 00:38:00.410
have no right to habeas corpus.
877
00:38:00.410 --> 00:38:05.387
The DC circuit then upholds that law,
878
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:08.220
the Supreme Court denies review,
879
00:38:08.220 --> 00:38:10.880
the Supreme Court reverses itself, takes the case,
880
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:13.290
And then finally on June 12th, 2008
881
00:38:13.290 --> 00:38:16.160
says that they can't go forward with habeas corpus.
882
00:38:16.160 --> 00:38:18.384
Did you think that was a victory
883
00:38:18.384 --> 00:38:20.060
for America or for the rule of law?
884
00:38:20.060 --> 00:38:22.202
When we finally had Boumediene?
885
00:38:22.202 --> 00:38:24.070
I think Boumediene is a tremendous victory
886
00:38:24.070 --> 00:38:25.670
for the rule of law.
887
00:38:25.670 --> 00:38:29.760
The idea that individuals can be imprisoned indefinitely
888
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:32.810
without counsel or meaningful hearings is inimical
889
00:38:32.810 --> 00:38:34.700
to the idea of the rule of law.
890
00:38:34.700 --> 00:38:37.600
I think the Supreme Court here was saying that
891
00:38:37.600 --> 00:38:40.730
some law has to apply to those in Guantanamo.
892
00:38:40.730 --> 00:38:43.220
To me, one of the aspects of the Bush administration
893
00:38:43.220 --> 00:38:46.470
position that's most repugnant was
894
00:38:46.470 --> 00:38:49.060
that there was a group of people in a place
895
00:38:49.060 --> 00:38:51.310
where no law could apply.
896
00:38:51.310 --> 00:38:52.880
Their position was the Geneva accords
897
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:54.320
didn't apply to these individuals
898
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:56.640
and the United States constitutional statute law
899
00:38:56.640 --> 00:38:58.030
didn't apply to these people.
900
00:38:58.030 --> 00:39:00.550
So the government could do whatever it wanted.
901
00:39:00.550 --> 00:39:02.440
That kind of lawlessness is
902
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:04.140
the antithesis of the rule of law.
903
00:39:06.170 --> 00:39:07.300
Going forward after Boumediene,
904
00:39:07.300 --> 00:39:09.130
are you satisfied
905
00:39:09.130 --> 00:39:11.853
with the way the law has gone forward since then?
906
00:39:13.620 --> 00:39:16.540
It's gone so slowly.
907
00:39:16.540 --> 00:39:20.420
I'm also very distressed that the plan to close Guantanamo
908
00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:24.250
within a year of Obama's inauguration hasn't happened,
909
00:39:24.250 --> 00:39:26.730
that the most recent word from the administration
910
00:39:26.730 --> 00:39:28.420
is that there's going to be a group of detainees
911
00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:31.900
they plan to continue to hold without trial.
912
00:39:31.900 --> 00:39:35.480
And these may be dangerous individuals.
913
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:36.880
They may be there by mistake.
914
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:39.150
But how can we ever know without a fair trial?
915
00:39:39.150 --> 00:39:40.279
What does that mean to you
916
00:39:40.279 --> 00:39:41.610
as a constitutional law professor
917
00:39:41.610 --> 00:39:44.033
who's done civil liberties for 30 years?
918
00:39:47.130 --> 00:39:51.620
I deeply believe in the United States Constitution.
919
00:39:51.620 --> 00:39:54.260
I believe that the Constitution has served this country
920
00:39:54.260 --> 00:39:56.600
incredibly well for over 200 years.
921
00:39:56.600 --> 00:39:58.850
There were moments of disappointments and embarrassment,
922
00:39:58.850 --> 00:40:00.330
like how the Supreme Court dealt
923
00:40:00.330 --> 00:40:01.930
with the interment of the Japanese
924
00:40:01.930 --> 00:40:04.240
or the Supreme Court upholding "separate but equal"
925
00:40:04.240 --> 00:40:06.210
or the Supreme Court protecting slavery.
926
00:40:06.210 --> 00:40:09.170
So I'm not naive in my praise of the Constitution
927
00:40:09.170 --> 00:40:11.730
but overall it's worked well.
928
00:40:11.730 --> 00:40:14.530
And I think it can work very well here.
929
00:40:14.530 --> 00:40:16.160
I don't think we need to have trials
930
00:40:16.160 --> 00:40:17.400
and military tribunals.
931
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:19.150
We can use Article 3 courts.
932
00:40:19.150 --> 00:40:21.560
I don't think we need to hold people without due process.
933
00:40:21.560 --> 00:40:24.370
We can trust due process to come to the right results.
934
00:40:24.370 --> 00:40:28.370
And the idea that now for eight years,
935
00:40:28.370 --> 00:40:31.420
individuals have been held without due process
936
00:40:31.420 --> 00:40:34.993
and the Constitution is disappointing beyond words.
937
00:40:36.928 --> 00:40:40.110
Did you think when Obama was elected
938
00:40:40.110 --> 00:40:42.540
things would change and are you disappointed
939
00:40:42.540 --> 00:40:44.633
with the way he's moving since then?
940
00:40:47.820 --> 00:40:52.300
In some ways Obama has done what I would hope he would do.
941
00:40:52.300 --> 00:40:54.910
He immediately renounced torture.
942
00:40:54.910 --> 00:40:57.360
Now that doesn't seem like such a big deal,
943
00:40:57.360 --> 00:40:59.760
but as soon as he did so,
944
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:01.860
Vice President Cheney was on the news
945
00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:04.330
saying we need enhanced interrogation techniques.
946
00:41:04.330 --> 00:41:06.133
But even now, it's torture.
947
00:41:07.180 --> 00:41:08.290
He also made clear
948
00:41:08.290 --> 00:41:11.400
that the United States would follow the law,
949
00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:14.410
that he didn't accept the notion that there was a place
950
00:41:14.410 --> 00:41:16.850
or a group of people where the law didn't apply.
951
00:41:16.850 --> 00:41:18.780
But there's many ways which I've been very disappointed
952
00:41:18.780 --> 00:41:21.130
by what the Obama administration has done.
953
00:41:21.130 --> 00:41:24.420
That they've not carried forth their proposal
954
00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:26.550
to close Guantanamo.
955
00:41:26.550 --> 00:41:27.383
Now, to some extent
956
00:41:27.383 --> 00:41:28.550
that's not the Obama administration's fault.
957
00:41:28.550 --> 00:41:30.610
Congress has passed laws that have limited the ability
958
00:41:30.610 --> 00:41:33.270
to bring people to the United States.
959
00:41:33.270 --> 00:41:34.800
The statement by the Obama administration
960
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.260
they'd continued to have a group of individuals
961
00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:41.560
that they would hold without trial seems to me
962
00:41:41.560 --> 00:41:43.720
a tremendous disappointment.
963
00:41:43.720 --> 00:41:46.830
Their aggressive use of the state secrets doctrine
964
00:41:46.830 --> 00:41:50.630
to get cases dismissed and to prevent accountability.
965
00:41:50.630 --> 00:41:53.920
The refusal to completely renounced rendition.
966
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:56.623
Those are places where I expected better from Obama.
967
00:42:00.871 --> 00:42:03.310
Do you know any more about rendition
968
00:42:03.310 --> 00:42:07.810
or state secrets that you can explain to people
969
00:42:07.810 --> 00:42:10.409
as to exactly what we're talking about
970
00:42:10.409 --> 00:42:12.937
with rendition and state secrets?
971
00:42:12.937 --> 00:42:13.770
Sure.
972
00:42:14.684 --> 00:42:18.700
The state secrets doctrine is a principle
973
00:42:18.700 --> 00:42:21.100
articulated by the Supreme Court
974
00:42:21.100 --> 00:42:23.000
that says that there are some matters
975
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.670
that courts should not delve into at all.
976
00:42:25.670 --> 00:42:27.730
The most powerful example that I can give
977
00:42:27.730 --> 00:42:29.820
as relates to the War on Terror,
978
00:42:29.820 --> 00:42:32.050
there's a man named Khalid El-Masri
979
00:42:32.050 --> 00:42:35.173
who was apprehended by mistake at the border in Germany.
980
00:42:36.330 --> 00:42:39.740
CIA officials in particular had a hunch
981
00:42:39.740 --> 00:42:40.790
that he might be dangerous.
982
00:42:40.790 --> 00:42:43.050
Apparently this was a hunch based on mistaken identity.
983
00:42:43.050 --> 00:42:45.463
He was taken and he was tortured.
984
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:48.660
Finally, after extended torture
985
00:42:48.660 --> 00:42:51.617
it was discovered that he made a mistake.
986
00:42:51.617 --> 00:42:53.890
"See, I made a mistake, it was mistaken identity."
987
00:42:53.890 --> 00:42:56.350
And they dumped them on the streets of Albania.
988
00:42:56.350 --> 00:42:57.917
He brought a lawsuit about this
989
00:42:57.917 --> 00:43:00.360
and the government said the suit can't go forward
990
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:02.440
because it can reveal state secrets.
991
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:04.220
And the federal district court,
992
00:43:04.220 --> 00:43:06.870
the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit
993
00:43:06.870 --> 00:43:08.670
agreed with the government in dismissing the case.
994
00:43:08.670 --> 00:43:11.400
There's the Arar case from the Second Circuit,
995
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:13.760
of a man who was apprehended in Canada
996
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:16.350
and horribly mistreated.
997
00:43:16.350 --> 00:43:17.820
And the case was dismissed
998
00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:19.860
based on the state secrets doctrine.
999
00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:22.410
The Obama administration has continued to
1000
00:43:22.410 --> 00:43:24.730
aggressively push the state secrets doctrine
1001
00:43:24.730 --> 00:43:26.570
which then prevents accountability.
1002
00:43:26.570 --> 00:43:29.620
There's many ways to protect classified information.
1003
00:43:29.620 --> 00:43:32.220
Suits rarely need to be dismissed in order to do so.
1004
00:43:34.150 --> 00:43:35.317
So going forward, Erwin,
1005
00:43:35.317 --> 00:43:38.043
do you think we're going to do better
1006
00:43:38.043 --> 00:43:39.803
than the last eight years?
1007
00:43:39.803 --> 00:43:41.763
You see us doing better?
1008
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:45.883
Yes. I think we're doing better and will do better.
1009
00:43:45.883 --> 00:43:48.680
I don't know that we'll do as well as we should.
1010
00:43:48.680 --> 00:43:51.630
I think the inclination of the Obama administration
1011
00:43:51.630 --> 00:43:54.530
is far more to follow the law
1012
00:43:54.530 --> 00:43:57.050
than it was in the Bush administration.
1013
00:43:57.050 --> 00:43:59.440
I don't think there are people in the Obama administration
1014
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:02.440
like Dick Cheney and David Addington and John Yoo.
1015
00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:04.910
And so I don't see we're going to have memos coming
1016
00:44:04.910 --> 00:44:07.933
in the Obama administration legitimizing torture.
1017
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:12.843
On the other hand, I worry that the Obama administration,
1018
00:44:14.120 --> 00:44:16.110
whether it's part of the executive
1019
00:44:16.110 --> 00:44:18.610
or whether a desire to be post-partisan,
1020
00:44:18.610 --> 00:44:20.880
isn't willing to go as far as it should.
1021
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:22.650
I strongly believe that there should have been
1022
00:44:22.650 --> 00:44:24.750
some kind of truth commission,
1023
00:44:24.750 --> 00:44:27.620
something to cover the illegalities that occurred
1024
00:44:27.620 --> 00:44:28.617
during the Bush administration.
1025
00:44:28.617 --> 00:44:31.540
And I think for political reasons the Obama administration
1026
00:44:31.540 --> 00:44:33.860
made the terrible mistake to not do that.
1027
00:44:33.860 --> 00:44:36.070
So I think there's things we will never know
1028
00:44:36.070 --> 00:44:38.310
because there wasn't the non-partisan investigation
1029
00:44:38.310 --> 00:44:39.740
that was required.
1030
00:44:39.740 --> 00:44:42.460
I was pleased when Attorney General Holder said
1031
00:44:42.460 --> 00:44:44.610
that there was going to be a trial
1032
00:44:44.610 --> 00:44:47.120
in federal district court in New York.
1033
00:44:47.120 --> 00:44:48.810
And now the most recent news as well,
1034
00:44:48.810 --> 00:44:51.200
They're going to back away and have a military tribunal.
1035
00:44:51.200 --> 00:44:52.730
I don't think a military tribunal can ever have
1036
00:44:52.730 --> 00:44:55.710
the legitimacy, around the world, in the United States,
1037
00:44:55.710 --> 00:44:58.410
that a trial in an Article 3 court can have.
1038
00:44:58.410 --> 00:45:01.211
Where do you see your role going forward?
1039
00:45:01.211 --> 00:45:03.510
Are you still representing Ghareby?
1040
00:45:03.510 --> 00:45:05.420
I'm one of several lawyers now
1041
00:45:05.420 --> 00:45:07.110
who's representing Ghareby.
1042
00:45:07.110 --> 00:45:09.420
A professor at American Law School and his clinic
1043
00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:10.840
are working at Ghareby's behalf
1044
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:12.810
as the Center for Constitutional Rights.
1045
00:45:12.810 --> 00:45:15.170
So I'm co-counsel, I'm no longer primary counsel.
1046
00:45:15.170 --> 00:45:17.139
Do you see yourself
1047
00:45:17.139 --> 00:45:19.220
going back to Guantanamo?
1048
00:45:19.220 --> 00:45:22.670
Yeah, if I needed to go back to Guantanamo
1049
00:45:22.670 --> 00:45:23.830
I'd go back in an instant.
1050
00:45:23.830 --> 00:45:25.160
If there's anything that I can do for Ghareby,
1051
00:45:25.160 --> 00:45:27.277
I still consider him a client
1052
00:45:27.277 --> 00:45:29.000
and still consider myself representing him
1053
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:31.820
though there's other counsel who are involved now.
1054
00:45:31.820 --> 00:45:32.653
Are you involved
1055
00:45:32.653 --> 00:45:34.023
in any Guantanamo litigation at all
1056
00:45:34.023 --> 00:45:36.533
or do you see yourself getting involved?
1057
00:45:37.450 --> 00:45:40.450
One of the changes in my life over this time is
1058
00:45:40.450 --> 00:45:42.460
I've become dean of a new law school.
1059
00:45:42.460 --> 00:45:43.610
And I have discovered that that's
1060
00:45:43.610 --> 00:45:45.810
a quite all-consuming responsibility
1061
00:45:45.810 --> 00:45:49.390
and I can't do all of the things that I was doing before
1062
00:45:49.390 --> 00:45:50.720
and do this.
1063
00:45:50.720 --> 00:45:52.871
And one thing that I've had to give up
1064
00:45:52.871 --> 00:45:55.890
is a lot of pro bono litigation that I used to be doing.
1065
00:45:55.890 --> 00:45:59.100
And so again, if the opportunity presents itself
1066
00:45:59.100 --> 00:46:01.580
to be involved, I will be involved.
1067
00:46:01.580 --> 00:46:04.110
One of the great developments since this all started
1068
00:46:04.110 --> 00:46:08.860
is the presence of so many lawyers representing detainees.
1069
00:46:08.860 --> 00:46:10.900
So many big firms involved.
1070
00:46:10.900 --> 00:46:13.450
When I started it was just Steve Yagman and me.
1071
00:46:13.450 --> 00:46:15.340
Do you think your life has changed
1072
00:46:15.340 --> 00:46:18.220
because of your involvement in that first case
1073
00:46:18.220 --> 00:46:20.510
and then your going to Guantanamo?
1074
00:46:25.343 --> 00:46:28.550
As I think of the things that I've done professionally
1075
00:46:28.550 --> 00:46:31.751
that I'm most proud of, being one of the first lawyers
1076
00:46:31.751 --> 00:46:34.410
to represent Guantanamo detainees,
1077
00:46:34.410 --> 00:46:36.100
being the first lawyer to argue in court
1078
00:46:36.100 --> 00:46:37.800
on behalf of a Guantanamo detainee,
1079
00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:39.610
being the first lawyer to argue in a court of appeals
1080
00:46:39.610 --> 00:46:41.140
on behalf of a Guantanamo detainee
1081
00:46:41.140 --> 00:46:42.670
being the first lawyer to win a case
1082
00:46:42.670 --> 00:46:44.030
on behalf of a Guantanamo detainee,
1083
00:46:44.030 --> 00:46:45.730
are things that I'm very proud of.
1084
00:46:47.596 --> 00:46:49.586
Has that changed your life?
1085
00:46:49.586 --> 00:46:50.533
I don't know.
1086
00:46:50.533 --> 00:46:53.917
I mean, changed my life? Probably not.
1087
00:46:53.917 --> 00:46:55.617
You're still upbeat.
1088
00:46:56.463 --> 00:47:00.930
I mean, I get the feeling that you're still very positive
1089
00:47:00.930 --> 00:47:02.680
about a future in America,
1090
00:47:02.680 --> 00:47:06.380
a future going forward in that.
1091
00:47:06.380 --> 00:47:08.250
Do you think something like this could happen again?
1092
00:47:08.250 --> 00:47:10.010
I mean, we read about it in books
1093
00:47:10.010 --> 00:47:11.673
and now we lived through it.
1094
00:47:12.820 --> 00:47:15.340
Well, we're not over this.
1095
00:47:15.340 --> 00:47:16.900
The problem I have with the way you phrase the question
1096
00:47:16.900 --> 00:47:17.880
is it makes it sound
1097
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:20.730
like this episode in American history is past.
1098
00:47:20.730 --> 00:47:24.730
It's not. There's still the people in Guantanamo.
1099
00:47:24.730 --> 00:47:27.140
Some who've been there eight years.
1100
00:47:27.140 --> 00:47:28.770
The idea that we're going to keep people
1101
00:47:28.770 --> 00:47:31.670
in prison for eight years, for their life,
1102
00:47:31.670 --> 00:47:34.293
without due process is just so abhorrent
1103
00:47:34.293 --> 00:47:37.070
to what the Constitution is about.
1104
00:47:37.070 --> 00:47:39.330
I also believe that at some point
1105
00:47:39.330 --> 00:47:41.260
there's going to be another terrorist attack
1106
00:47:41.260 --> 00:47:42.093
on the United States.
1107
00:47:42.093 --> 00:47:45.890
I hope that I'm wrong, but it seems almost inevitable.
1108
00:47:45.890 --> 00:47:48.300
And I fear that when that happens,
1109
00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:51.420
that what followed September 11th come all over again.
1110
00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:54.070
There'll be something like the Patriot Act adopted,
1111
00:47:54.070 --> 00:47:56.310
there'll be pressure to do things
1112
00:47:56.310 --> 00:48:00.310
like extreme interrogation, things like Guantanamo.
1113
00:48:00.310 --> 00:48:02.410
I hope there'll be an administration
1114
00:48:02.410 --> 00:48:03.950
with a different inclination
1115
00:48:03.950 --> 00:48:05.610
than the Bush administration had,
1116
00:48:05.610 --> 00:48:08.220
one more oriented towards the rule of law,
1117
00:48:08.220 --> 00:48:10.730
but throughout American history
1118
00:48:10.730 --> 00:48:13.160
when there's been a crisis, especially foreign-based one,
1119
00:48:13.160 --> 00:48:15.120
the response has been repression,
1120
00:48:15.120 --> 00:48:16.400
and the events of September 11th
1121
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:18.300
have tragically followed that pattern.
1122
00:48:24.362 --> 00:48:26.990
Do you think even someone like Obama
1123
00:48:26.990 --> 00:48:30.400
could end up in that situation of repression
1124
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:33.100
'cause the executive has that power
1125
00:48:33.100 --> 00:48:35.683
and that's just what seems to happen?
1126
00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:42.700
I would hope that Obama as a lawyer
1127
00:48:42.700 --> 00:48:45.470
is a constitutional law professor.
1128
00:48:45.470 --> 00:48:49.000
We have far more of a commitment to the rule of law
1129
00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:52.130
than his predecessor, and I'd hope that those he's appointed
1130
00:48:52.130 --> 00:48:54.210
to high level positions would have far more
1131
00:48:54.210 --> 00:48:56.130
of a commitment to rule of law
1132
00:48:56.130 --> 00:48:58.980
than those who occupied similar positions
1133
00:48:58.980 --> 00:49:01.270
in his predecessor's administration.
1134
00:49:01.270 --> 00:49:03.977
And there are so many ways in which the Obama administration
1135
00:49:03.977 --> 00:49:06.730
is better than the Bush administration,
1136
00:49:06.730 --> 00:49:07.990
but there are too many ways
1137
00:49:07.990 --> 00:49:09.530
where it's continued the policies
1138
00:49:09.530 --> 00:49:10.540
of the Bush administration.
1139
00:49:10.540 --> 00:49:11.940
And it's very disappointing.
1140
00:49:13.358 --> 00:49:16.950
(indistinct talking in background)
1141
00:49:16.950 --> 00:49:18.970
No, I would like confirmation.
1142
00:49:18.970 --> 00:49:21.480
Sounds as though you did not feel
1143
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:24.390
that there was obstruction going on
1144
00:49:24.390 --> 00:49:25.970
from the government towards you,
1145
00:49:25.970 --> 00:49:28.930
that maybe they were inept and they're very slow,
1146
00:49:28.930 --> 00:49:31.577
but do you see the overall pattern
1147
00:49:31.577 --> 00:49:35.903
of how slow things are as obstructionist?
1148
00:49:38.030 --> 00:49:41.050
There were many lawyers who I've heard
1149
00:49:41.050 --> 00:49:43.240
felt that the government was being obstructionist
1150
00:49:43.240 --> 00:49:44.830
towards them.
1151
00:49:44.830 --> 00:49:46.270
I never felt that the people
1152
00:49:46.270 --> 00:49:48.250
in the Department of Defense, the Department of Justice
1153
00:49:48.250 --> 00:49:51.150
who I was dealing with were being obstructionist towards me.
1154
00:49:51.150 --> 00:49:53.895
There were instances where things got canceled
1155
00:49:53.895 --> 00:49:58.500
and had to be rescheduled, but not unduly.
1156
00:49:58.500 --> 00:50:01.623
So there was always an explanation that made sense.
1157
00:50:02.769 --> 00:50:05.410
It took a long time to get things done sometimes
1158
00:50:05.410 --> 00:50:08.303
but I expect that dealing with the government.
1159
00:50:09.860 --> 00:50:11.060
Another question.
1160
00:50:11.060 --> 00:50:15.950
You talked about when you got all those emails
1161
00:50:15.950 --> 00:50:18.610
and voicemails about being more public
1162
00:50:18.610 --> 00:50:19.870
about what was going on.
1163
00:50:19.870 --> 00:50:23.670
Do you have any other regrets in terms of the process
1164
00:50:23.670 --> 00:50:25.969
of what either you or other folks
1165
00:50:25.969 --> 00:50:28.610
who are working on this issue
1166
00:50:28.610 --> 00:50:29.940
could have done differently,
1167
00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:32.870
to have maybe informed the U.S. public
1168
00:50:32.870 --> 00:50:37.533
or done something more to bring back the rule of law?
1169
00:50:41.750 --> 00:50:44.890
I wish that I had much more aggressively
1170
00:50:44.890 --> 00:50:47.559
tried to stay in touch with Ghareby.
1171
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:50.440
I think there were too many gaps in my communication
1172
00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:53.130
with him during times that nothing was going on
1173
00:50:53.130 --> 00:50:56.323
and I think that that was a mistake on my part.
1174
00:50:57.990 --> 00:51:01.053
In terms of reaching out to the American public,
1175
00:51:02.300 --> 00:51:04.747
I think that happened relatively quickly, but
1176
00:51:08.060 --> 00:51:09.540
I wish it had happened faster,
1177
00:51:09.540 --> 00:51:12.000
I wish it had happened in louder voices,
1178
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:13.900
but I think in time,
1179
00:51:13.900 --> 00:51:16.050
the American public was certainly informed
1180
00:51:16.050 --> 00:51:16.950
of what was happening.
1181
00:51:16.950 --> 00:51:19.180
I think the difficulty is that I don't think
1182
00:51:19.180 --> 00:51:21.360
that the American public has ever been able to see
1183
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.410
the Guantanamo detainees as human beings,
1184
00:51:24.590 --> 00:51:27.620
that maybe that'll be the beauty and the brilliance
1185
00:51:27.620 --> 00:51:30.210
of this project, but the Guantanamo detainees
1186
00:51:30.210 --> 00:51:34.510
can still too easily be characterized as terrorists
1187
00:51:34.510 --> 00:51:37.890
and not being presented as human beings.
1188
00:51:37.890 --> 00:51:41.160
I was so struck when there was the commercials last week
1189
00:51:41.160 --> 00:51:43.790
in the news and doing some media stuff around them
1190
00:51:43.790 --> 00:51:44.957
where it was being presented as,
1191
00:51:44.957 --> 00:51:47.790
"How could these lawyers who represented terrorists
1192
00:51:47.790 --> 00:51:49.960
now be in high-level positions in the government?"
1193
00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:53.230
And of course, if anything, I say "alleged terrorists."
1194
00:51:53.230 --> 00:51:54.870
we don't know why they're there.
1195
00:51:54.870 --> 00:51:58.090
But I think the fact that they're not presented
1196
00:51:58.090 --> 00:52:01.530
as human beings makes it too easy to caricature them.
1197
00:52:01.530 --> 00:52:03.470
And I think that the lawyers who have been to see them
1198
00:52:03.470 --> 00:52:05.120
share some of the blame for that.
1199
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:10.230
Because why?
1200
00:52:10.230 --> 00:52:12.180
I don't think we've done a good enough job
1201
00:52:12.180 --> 00:52:15.900
to tell their stories, to make them seem human.
1202
00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:17.950
To the extent that people like me are the ones
1203
00:52:17.950 --> 00:52:18.880
who have gone to see them,
1204
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:21.123
we're the ones who have to describe them.
1205
00:52:22.270 --> 00:52:24.440
I unfortunately am not very good at descriptions.
1206
00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:27.310
I would be a terrible person as an eye witness
1207
00:52:27.310 --> 00:52:28.630
but I still want to be able to tell
1208
00:52:28.630 --> 00:52:29.880
what this man looks like.
1209
00:52:34.080 --> 00:52:35.904
I think in every war
1210
00:52:35.904 --> 00:52:38.250
you always have us against them, right?
1211
00:52:38.250 --> 00:52:41.493
(indistinct) And that's what keeps wars going,
1212
00:52:41.493 --> 00:52:42.760
don't you think?
1213
00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:43.593
Sure.
1214
00:52:43.593 --> 00:52:44.426
You go back to World War II
1215
00:52:44.426 --> 00:52:46.410
and the general who was responsible
1216
00:52:46.410 --> 00:52:48.727
for the Japanese internment, General DeWitt said,
1217
00:52:48.727 --> 00:52:50.367
and I can still recite the quote verbatim,
1218
00:52:50.367 --> 00:52:51.360
"A Jap is a Jap,
1219
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.670
makes no difference if he's an American or not."
1220
00:52:53.670 --> 00:52:55.794
During World War I, states like Nebraska
1221
00:52:55.794 --> 00:52:58.880
prohibited the teaching of the German language.
1222
00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:03.880
And so there is a vilifying and a caricaturing of the enemy.
1223
00:53:04.030 --> 00:53:05.633
And it's certainly gone on here.
1224
00:53:08.720 --> 00:53:10.150
So looking back then,
1225
00:53:10.150 --> 00:53:12.824
I guess I'll ask that same question again.
1226
00:53:12.824 --> 00:53:15.220
You could have perhaps done more
1227
00:53:15.220 --> 00:53:16.630
and other people could have done more
1228
00:53:16.630 --> 00:53:21.630
and it's easier to say that now, but maybe we all wish...
1229
00:53:24.784 --> 00:53:27.510
Yeah, I do especially at the beginning.
1230
00:53:27.510 --> 00:53:31.230
After a time, there were so many lawyers involved
1231
00:53:31.230 --> 00:53:34.395
that I think that there was less need.
1232
00:53:34.395 --> 00:53:36.410
You've written a wonderful book,
1233
00:53:36.410 --> 00:53:38.760
Joe Margulies wrote a great book on Guantanamo.
1234
00:53:40.070 --> 00:53:41.810
There were many people writing
1235
00:53:41.810 --> 00:53:43.170
to inform the American public.
1236
00:53:43.170 --> 00:53:45.303
There's been plays done about it.
1237
00:53:46.275 --> 00:53:48.830
The Red Cross has done reports about it.
1238
00:53:48.830 --> 00:53:52.046
But I think that the unique opportunity that I had
1239
00:53:52.046 --> 00:53:55.660
and the unique way that I failed was at the outset,
1240
00:53:55.660 --> 00:54:00.080
that with filing the first lawsuit,
1241
00:54:00.080 --> 00:54:02.070
I had a platform to criticize
1242
00:54:02.070 --> 00:54:04.080
what the United States government was doing.
1243
00:54:04.080 --> 00:54:05.860
And I didn't use the platform.
1244
00:54:05.860 --> 00:54:09.280
And I made the conscious choice that I was too afraid
1245
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:12.790
of being accused of doing this for media exposure.
1246
00:54:12.790 --> 00:54:14.120
I didn't want to be perceived
1247
00:54:14.120 --> 00:54:15.960
that that's why I was involved,
1248
00:54:15.960 --> 00:54:20.670
so decided not to take the media invitations that were there
1249
00:54:20.670 --> 00:54:21.763
and I made a mistake.
1250
00:54:23.560 --> 00:54:24.843
People might not have
1251
00:54:24.843 --> 00:54:25.676
believed you anyway, right?
1252
00:54:25.676 --> 00:54:26.509
Don't you think?
1253
00:54:28.380 --> 00:54:31.500
I think people who sent me the hate mail
1254
00:54:32.983 --> 00:54:35.800
weren't going to be convinced by anything that I said.
1255
00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:38.950
On the other hand, there are lots of people
1256
00:54:38.950 --> 00:54:40.770
who might've been open-minded.
1257
00:54:40.770 --> 00:54:42.890
And if they had a constitutional law professor
1258
00:54:42.890 --> 00:54:45.810
explaining to them why it violates international law
1259
00:54:45.810 --> 00:54:47.340
and constitutional law to do
1260
00:54:47.340 --> 00:54:49.810
what the United States government was doing,
1261
00:54:49.810 --> 00:54:53.020
maybe it could impart a shifting public sentiment
1262
00:54:53.020 --> 00:54:54.170
a bit earlier.
1263
00:54:54.170 --> 00:54:57.460
That's the platform that I had the opportunity to have
1264
00:54:57.460 --> 00:54:59.390
in January 2002.
1265
00:54:59.390 --> 00:55:02.110
And I made the mistake in not using it.
1266
00:55:02.110 --> 00:55:03.596
I do have another question.
1267
00:55:03.596 --> 00:55:04.429
Sure.
1268
00:55:04.429 --> 00:55:06.753
Some people have been able
1269
00:55:07.923 --> 00:55:11.560
to leave Guantanamo who appear to be guilty.
1270
00:55:11.560 --> 00:55:14.130
And some people are still at Guantanamo
1271
00:55:14.130 --> 00:55:16.170
who appear to be innocent.
1272
00:55:16.170 --> 00:55:20.150
Do you have any sense of what determined
1273
00:55:20.150 --> 00:55:24.160
whether somebody was able to leave Guantanamo or not?
1274
00:55:24.160 --> 00:55:26.091
Your client is still there.
1275
00:55:26.091 --> 00:55:30.330
Do you understand the reasoning?
1276
00:55:30.330 --> 00:55:34.820
My sense is, it's all based on intelligence information
1277
00:55:34.820 --> 00:55:36.570
that the lawyers have no access to,
1278
00:55:37.480 --> 00:55:39.450
that the government knows things
1279
00:55:39.450 --> 00:55:42.150
about some of the detainees that never shows up
1280
00:55:42.150 --> 00:55:45.820
in the Combatant Status Review Tribunals,
1281
00:55:45.820 --> 00:55:48.180
that causes them to believe
1282
00:55:48.180 --> 00:55:50.470
that these are the people they should keep
1283
00:55:50.470 --> 00:55:52.070
and these are the people that should let go.
1284
00:55:52.070 --> 00:55:54.000
And the difficulty of the secret evidence
1285
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:55.470
is that-
1286
00:55:55.470 --> 00:55:56.560
It's secret.
It's secret.
1287
00:55:56.560 --> 00:55:59.293
There's no opportunity to know or to rebut it.
1288
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:03.470
So I can say to you in all honesty that I don't know
1289
00:56:03.470 --> 00:56:04.793
why Ghareby is there.
1290
00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:10.760
But overall it sounds as though
1291
00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:12.650
your conclusion is that most of the folks
1292
00:56:12.650 --> 00:56:16.650
who are still there are guilty of a terrorist attack.
1293
00:56:16.650 --> 00:56:18.510
I have no conclusion.
Okay.
1294
00:56:18.510 --> 00:56:20.260
No, I have no conclusion as to whether
1295
00:56:20.260 --> 00:56:22.900
those who are still there should be there,
1296
00:56:22.900 --> 00:56:26.720
should be detained, tried or not.
1297
00:56:26.720 --> 00:56:27.553
Let me be clear.
1298
00:56:27.553 --> 00:56:31.450
I think everyone is entitled to due process.
1299
00:56:31.450 --> 00:56:34.070
Everyone should be tried.
1300
00:56:34.070 --> 00:56:39.070
Whether some who are there should be released without trial
1301
00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:42.170
whether some are likely to be convicted at trial,
1302
00:56:42.170 --> 00:56:43.003
I have no opinion
1303
00:56:43.003 --> 00:56:44.900
because I don't have access to any of the evidence.
1304
00:56:44.900 --> 00:56:49.120
All I believe is that long, long ago
1305
00:56:49.120 --> 00:56:51.170
trials should be held with these individuals.
1306
00:56:51.170 --> 00:56:53.090
And I prefer very much they be trials
1307
00:56:53.090 --> 00:56:54.410
in an Article 3 court,
1308
00:56:54.410 --> 00:56:55.960
'cause I believe that no military tribunal
1309
00:56:55.960 --> 00:56:58.873
can have the credibility of a federal court.
1310
00:57:00.770 --> 00:57:01.790
Erwin, I need to ask you
1311
00:57:01.790 --> 00:57:03.654
one more question here.
Anything.
1312
00:57:03.654 --> 00:57:04.980
In 50 plus years,
1313
00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:08.690
did you ever think you would see something
1314
00:57:08.690 --> 00:57:11.350
like you saw in the last eight years?
1315
00:57:11.350 --> 00:57:12.580
Having been a historian,
1316
00:57:12.580 --> 00:57:16.780
having seen over the 200 years of America
1317
00:57:16.780 --> 00:57:18.430
that things like this did happen?
1318
00:57:22.040 --> 00:57:24.513
Every time the United States has dealt
1319
00:57:24.513 --> 00:57:26.700
with a foreign-based crisis
1320
00:57:26.700 --> 00:57:29.350
there's been some form of repression.
1321
00:57:29.350 --> 00:57:32.890
It's taken a different form each time.
1322
00:57:32.890 --> 00:57:36.130
In World War I, you had the suppression of speech
1323
00:57:36.130 --> 00:57:38.820
of those criticizing the war, the Palmer Raids
1324
00:57:38.820 --> 00:57:41.370
rounding up people who were non-citizens.
1325
00:57:41.370 --> 00:57:42.203
In World War II,
1326
00:57:42.203 --> 00:57:45.922
you had 110,000 Japanese Americans being interned.
1327
00:57:45.922 --> 00:57:49.380
During the McCarthy era, you had people losing their jobs
1328
00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:52.263
and their freedom based on ill-founded suspicion.
1329
00:57:53.100 --> 00:57:57.150
Soon as September 11th happened, I believed
1330
00:57:57.150 --> 00:58:00.397
that we would have seen some deprivation of liberties
1331
00:58:00.397 --> 00:58:02.210
and some repression.
1332
00:58:02.210 --> 00:58:03.600
I don't think I could have imagined
1333
00:58:03.600 --> 00:58:05.630
it would have taken the form that it did.
1334
00:58:05.630 --> 00:58:07.852
I never thought that the United States government
1335
00:58:07.852 --> 00:58:11.584
would engage in systematic torture as it did.
1336
00:58:11.584 --> 00:58:13.590
I never thought the United States government
1337
00:58:13.590 --> 00:58:15.970
would imprison people for eight years
1338
00:58:15.970 --> 00:58:18.900
and say that it didn't have to provide them due process.
1339
00:58:18.900 --> 00:58:20.600
But unfortunately I think this,
1340
00:58:20.600 --> 00:58:22.520
one of the worst patterns of American history,
1341
00:58:22.520 --> 00:58:23.520
has repeated itself.
1342
00:58:25.160 --> 00:58:26.660
How will the world look at us
1343
00:58:26.660 --> 00:58:28.613
50 years from now?
1344
00:58:28.613 --> 00:58:31.210
I think this is a tremendous embarrassment
1345
00:58:31.210 --> 00:58:33.330
to the United States.
1346
00:58:33.330 --> 00:58:36.170
It's not possible to go anywhere in the world,
1347
00:58:36.170 --> 00:58:39.853
as you know, without people talking about Guantanamo,
1348
00:58:40.850 --> 00:58:43.450
the torture done by the American military.
1349
00:58:43.450 --> 00:58:46.980
I think to the extent that the United States
1350
00:58:46.980 --> 00:58:49.870
was a moral leader in the world,
1351
00:58:49.870 --> 00:58:52.980
especially after World War II and Nuremberg,
1352
00:58:52.980 --> 00:58:54.130
that's all been squandered
1353
00:58:54.130 --> 00:58:56.180
and it's not going to be easily regained.
1354
00:58:58.970 --> 00:59:01.166
Is there something I didn't ask you
1355
00:59:01.166 --> 00:59:04.763
that you can share with us?
1356
00:59:10.028 --> 00:59:10.861
I turn to you.
1357
00:59:10.861 --> 00:59:11.763
Is there anything else I can talk about
1358
00:59:11.763 --> 00:59:13.513
that would be useful?
1359
00:59:14.569 --> 00:59:15.457
Johnny, do you have anything?
1360
00:59:15.457 --> 00:59:16.830
No, no.
1361
00:59:16.830 --> 00:59:19.620
It just seems that when people look back
1362
00:59:19.620 --> 00:59:20.900
at this time, they're going to wonder,
1363
00:59:20.900 --> 00:59:22.870
how could we be like this?
1364
00:59:22.870 --> 00:59:25.720
Yeah, what could Americans do?
1365
00:59:25.720 --> 00:59:29.360
Those Americans who believe as you do
1366
00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:32.440
that it's time to restore the rule of law.
1367
00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:34.110
What would you suggest to them?
1368
00:59:34.110 --> 00:59:37.930
How do they go about as individuals
1369
00:59:37.930 --> 00:59:42.693
who are not habeas lawyers, to work on this issue?
1370
00:59:50.420 --> 00:59:54.280
Part of the difficulty in rallying public support
1371
00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:55.993
for the Guantanamo detainees is,
1372
00:59:55.993 --> 00:59:58.423
it's so removed from people's lives.
1373
00:59:59.630 --> 01:00:02.585
In my lifetime I thought that the thing
1374
01:00:02.585 --> 01:00:06.230
that most mobilized people was the Vietnam War.
1375
01:00:06.230 --> 01:00:07.890
'Cause as people feared being drafted
1376
01:00:07.890 --> 01:00:09.190
or having loved ones being drafted,
1377
01:00:09.190 --> 01:00:10.873
it gave them a personal stake.
1378
01:00:11.770 --> 01:00:15.120
So few people in the United States have contact to anybody
1379
01:00:15.120 --> 01:00:17.550
who has contact to anybody in Guantanamo.
1380
01:00:17.550 --> 01:00:19.170
It just doesn't touch their lives,
1381
01:00:19.170 --> 01:00:21.530
so it's very hard to mobilize people.
1382
01:00:21.530 --> 01:00:24.960
Those in Guantanamo have been caricatured as terrorists.
1383
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:27.640
There's no sympathy for terrorists.
1384
01:00:27.640 --> 01:00:29.760
And I don't think for many people
1385
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:32.330
there's an instinctive belief in due process.
1386
01:00:32.330 --> 01:00:34.320
It's "These are terrible people.
1387
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:36.130
They deserve what's come to them."
1388
01:00:36.130 --> 01:00:38.870
And so it's very hard to rally public support
1389
01:00:38.870 --> 01:00:40.740
for those in Guantanamo.
1390
01:00:40.740 --> 01:00:45.740
I think that what has to be emphasized is our core values,
1391
01:00:46.040 --> 01:00:51.040
that our most cherished values are about due process
1392
01:00:51.420 --> 01:00:52.920
and things the Constitution provides.
1393
01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:54.670
The other thing that I've noted is
1394
01:00:54.670 --> 01:00:56.700
I've given countless speeches about civil liberties
1395
01:00:56.700 --> 01:00:59.400
and the war on terrorism since September 11th.
1396
01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:03.160
Those in the audience who were most sympathetic to me
1397
01:01:03.160 --> 01:01:05.520
are those who have served in the military
1398
01:01:05.520 --> 01:01:07.440
or have loved ones have served in the military.
1399
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:11.060
So many times I've heard, "How can the United States
1400
01:01:11.060 --> 01:01:14.700
expect foreign countries to follow the rule of law,
1401
01:01:14.700 --> 01:01:17.260
the Geneva accords, when they have American prisoners,
1402
01:01:17.260 --> 01:01:19.753
if we don't follow the rule of law and the Geneva accords
1403
01:01:19.753 --> 01:01:21.527
when we have foreign prisoners?"
1404
01:01:22.830 --> 01:01:25.060
So what can individuals do?
1405
01:01:25.060 --> 01:01:27.093
They who aren't lawyers, you think?
1406
01:01:28.090 --> 01:01:30.210
I think individuals can be most effective
1407
01:01:30.210 --> 01:01:31.890
by joining organizations.
1408
01:01:31.890 --> 01:01:35.107
And so I think the organizations like the ACLU
1409
01:01:35.107 --> 01:01:37.580
and the Center for Constitutional Rights
1410
01:01:37.580 --> 01:01:39.740
have just been so important.
1411
01:01:39.740 --> 01:01:42.670
I think individuals also have the ability to speak out
1412
01:01:42.670 --> 01:01:46.080
to representatives, to senators, even to the President
1413
01:01:46.930 --> 01:01:50.420
to have voices heard that this isn't my country
1414
01:01:50.420 --> 01:01:51.660
when it's doing these things,
1415
01:01:51.660 --> 01:01:54.210
this isn't the America that I grew up believing in.
1416
01:01:57.315 --> 01:01:58.273
Other questions?
1417
01:01:59.930 --> 01:02:01.830
I think that
1418
01:02:01.830 --> 01:02:02.760
if you have nothing else,
1419
01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:05.374
that was great, Erwin, that was fabulous.
1420
01:02:05.374 --> 01:02:06.615
Thank you so much. Thank you.
1421
01:02:06.615 --> 01:02:07.922
Great. Thank you.
1422
01:02:07.922 --> 01:02:08.964
(applauding)
1423
01:02:08.964 --> 01:02:11.381
(indistinct)