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Okay, well thank you so much Mary Kay.
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I'm gonna start with some background information.
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So could you say your name?
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Mary Kay Sauter.
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Great, and are you lay or clergy?
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Now I'm clergy.
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Okay, and what denomination?
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United Church of Christ.
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Okay, great.
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Where and when were you born Mary Kay?
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I was born in Minneapolis.
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April 23, 1945.
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Okay.
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The bill came to $84.00.
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(laughing) No, really?
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I found it going through my parent's things.
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10 days in the hospital.
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That is incredible.
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Both the cost and the number of days in the hospital.
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That's amazing.
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(both women laugh)
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I love that little tidbit.
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Where did you go to school?
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Graduate or divinity school?
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I have a B.A. from Bethel.
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Yes.
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And an M.B.A.
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from the University of North Dakota.
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Oh!
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And an MDiv from here
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at United Theological Seminary.
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Oh, very interesting!
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Okay, you said now you're ordained.
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So, this was at a later point in your life
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you went to seminary?
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I was in seminary
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while the Re-Imagining happened.
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Oh, okay.
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I started in 1991,
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and graduated in 1995.
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Okay, okay.
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Very interesting. Alright.
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So, well I think you're starting to answer this.
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So this is what you were doing during,
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you were at school.
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Were you doing any other kind of work?
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No, I was just going to school.
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Yeah, that was probably enough (laughs).
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It was, yes.
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And what work or ministry did you do
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after Re-Imagining?
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I went into interim ministry.
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I'd had one semester of school left,
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and in one week,
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had a sense of call to do interims.
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And first week in seminary,
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I learned about process theology.
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So people would ask me, "What are you going to do
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"when you graduate?"
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And I'd say, "I don't know.
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"I'm becoming who I will be when I need to decide."
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And like I said, in that one week,
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it became very clear that I was called to do interim.
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So I had never even heard of 'em
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before I came to seminary.
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If you don't mind my asking,
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that's so fascinating,
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what about interim ministry,
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what about it called you?
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I grew up a minister's kid, slash army brat.
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And was very used to going into new situations,
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and loved going into new situations and meeting people.
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I felt the M.B.A would be a big help in the analysis
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and looking at finances,
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looking at how things are done.
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I am a five on the enneagram, and we analyze.
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Is that right?
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Yeah.
Yes, yes.
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We are the analyzers,
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and a big difference is that I'm an extrovert analyzer,
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and most aren't.
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Oh, interesting.
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So, not only did I analyze,
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but I had to share it.
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(both women laugh)
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That sounds like a good interim minister!
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So did you do this at a number of churches?
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Eight different churches,
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and on the conference staff
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for the Minnesota Conference of the UCC.
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Oh, okay.
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Very interesting. Wow.
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So how and when did you first become aware
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of feminist theology?
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Oh, at seminary I think.
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That's it.
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Yeah.
Yeah.
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I think I had always figured
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there was more to the whole thing
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than what we'd been taught.
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But I think to put a name to it
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and have it be something, it was probably seminary.
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Mhmm.
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And did you resonate with it immediately?
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Oh yeah.
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Mhmm.
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Yup.
Yeah.
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Yeah, very clearly.
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It was, well of course.
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Yes.
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(both women laugh)
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Of course.
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Yes, yes.
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And I think that,
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doing feminist theology,
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then it was like, well of course.
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Then there's all these other people
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who can do theology as well
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out of their lives and their experience just like women.
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So it broadened it even more.
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It wasn't just men and women.
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It was various races, various economic groups,
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everybody, gays and lesbians.
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Everybody can do theology out of their experience.
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So, it expanded it even more.
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Yes, wow.
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Well should we talk about your relationship
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to the Re-Imagining community?
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Sure, sure (laughing).
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And could you tell me about,
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what was your relationship?
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What kind of roles did you play?
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I don't remember how I first got into it.
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I'm sure it was through the UCC.
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But they wanted somebody to be there from the UCC,
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and so I was very interested in being a part of it.
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I remember going to meetings
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and then they were looking for co-chairs.
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And they had asked Kathy Austin Molly to be a co-chair.
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And I didn't wait to be asked.
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I volunteered (laughs).
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Oh, wow.
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What led you to volunteer?
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I like organizing.
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I like the process of meetings.
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I like going to meetings.
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I suppose a call to do it.
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So, I just went up to Sally Hill
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and said, "I'd like to be the other co-chair."
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I don't know if she would ever have asked me.
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I don't know if it was a good decision (laughs).
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But I was glad to be a part of it
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and to be leading the group.
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So what was that experience like?
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Being a co-chair for that '93 conference?
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Well, it was quite amazing.
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Sally of course carried the bulk
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of the responsibility in contacting people.
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We'd shared the meetings,
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we met and talked ourselves with Sally
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about things that needed to be done.
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I think even more so at the conference itself.
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We were at a very different conference than anybody else.
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Say some more about that.
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When spur of the moment decisions
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needed to be made,
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we were often the ones contacted to make them.
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When negotiations needed to take place,
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we were the ones doing the negotiating.
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Now other people might have been as well,
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but as co-chairs we found ourselves often in that role.
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So, when, and we mentioned this before,
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but when a couple of the speakers couldn't be understood
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that were doing the liturgy.
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We eventually negotiated,
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what they came up with the idea as to how to fix it,
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which was then fixed.
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But we were the ones going between people often.
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Yes.
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Between those who wanted it one way,
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and those who wanted it another way (laughs).
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The other ones,
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when the lesbian women decided that they wanted to come out
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to celebrate being lesbians.
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It was Kathy and I that were going back and forth
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negotiating between them and with the rest of the board.
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Because everybody wasn't necessarily
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ready for that.
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Yeah.
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Even the board members weren't, so we--
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So during the conference,
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while this is going on,
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you're trying to talk to individual board members
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and work this out?
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Yup.
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Wow (laughs).
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Yeah.
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Yeah, because Kris Smith,
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I don't know if you're going to interview her, but--
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I could, I haven't.
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Yeah, I could.
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Because she was a speaker at the event.
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Yes, right.
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And she had been Methodist,
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was now I think becoming UCC someplace in there.
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But she was speaking,
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and while she was speaking,
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she was going to come out to everybody.
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Oh, yes.
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To the whole world.
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Yes.
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But before that happened,
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a day before that happened,
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if my memory is right,
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a group of lesbian women decided they wanted to--
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All come.
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Either, like I said,
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affirm who they were, or some of them to come out.
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And it was a break in the flow of the event.
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So there were different arguments about it.
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Some were saying, "Well, if we let them, then who else?"
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Some were saying, "But we've mapped this all out.
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"We have a flow to this.
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"It's gonna break the flow."
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Some were saying, "But we as a board didn't vote on this.
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"We didn't decide about this."
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And so we just kept all morning long negotiating it out
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with various people,
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until everybody agreed that it would be okay to do.
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And do you recall what were the reasons
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for why to do it?
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What was the persuasive?
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Well I think it was mainly, how can we not?
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They're our sisters.
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We believe in letting people have control
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over their own lives.
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We believe in affirming who people are, our differences.
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And it would be interesting to me,
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and I thought about this before,
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if we hadn't been in that moment,
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in that time,
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in that intensity,
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needing to make a decision one way or the other.
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If we had had months and months and months to ponder it
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and to figure it out,
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what would we have done?
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Oh, interesting.
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Would we have come to the same conclusion?
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Or would we have been had enough voices from denominations
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where it wasn't okay at that time,
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that we would've said no.
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I don't know.
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Interesting, yeah.
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Very interesting.
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Do you have some other strong memories?
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Those are really good memories.
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They're really important memories.
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Are there other things that you,
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were really important to you?
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I think it was the round tables,
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was a big deal.
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I think moving people around from one place to another.
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And I couldn't tell you,
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maybe they know whose idea some of these were.
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The round tables to me is just a no-brainer
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for any kind of meeting.
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You're in closer proximity,
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and eyeball to eyeball with people.
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But it grew out of our meetings
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that we would do these things.
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And having the speakers in the middle,
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then moving people around became important
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because otherwise people would always be in the back.
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Right.
275
00:11:20.267 --> 00:11:22.204
So now they were also in the front.
276
00:11:22.204 --> 00:11:24.315
And so we took the time
277
00:11:24.315 --> 00:11:27.556
to move everything from a table to the next one,
278
00:11:27.556 --> 00:11:31.336
or people carried it from one spot to another.
279
00:11:31.336 --> 00:11:33.232
But it was all organized.
280
00:11:33.232 --> 00:11:36.272
And it has to do with people like Jo Ringgenberg
281
00:11:36.272 --> 00:11:41.205
and Mary Gates who are just incredible organizers.
282
00:11:41.205 --> 00:11:46.089
Oh, detail people that you would not believe with energy,
283
00:11:46.089 --> 00:11:50.316
and they were just amazing in what they did.
284
00:11:50.316 --> 00:11:52.418
So on the committee there were people
285
00:11:52.418 --> 00:11:54.762
who were doing all these creative,
286
00:11:54.762 --> 00:11:56.266
well everybody had creative thoughts.
287
00:11:56.266 --> 00:11:57.506
Everybody had input.
288
00:11:57.506 --> 00:11:59.410
That was what we felt was important,
289
00:11:59.410 --> 00:12:02.743
was everybody to have input into things.
290
00:12:03.643 --> 00:12:05.380
Then there were big picture people.
291
00:12:05.380 --> 00:12:07.050
And then there were detail people.
292
00:12:07.050 --> 00:12:08.402
(both women laugh)
293
00:12:08.402 --> 00:12:10.851
And we desperately needed each other
294
00:12:10.851 --> 00:12:13.451
to get through that whole thing.
295
00:12:13.451 --> 00:12:16.284
I think the worship services were,
296
00:12:18.773 --> 00:12:20.845
Madeleine Sue Martin is absolutely
297
00:12:20.845 --> 00:12:24.012
an incredible liturgist and ritualist,
298
00:12:24.954 --> 00:12:26.371
and just amazing.
299
00:12:27.274 --> 00:12:30.726
And I felt fortunate after the event
300
00:12:30.726 --> 00:12:32.724
to have a class from her.
301
00:12:32.724 --> 00:12:33.557
Did you?
302
00:12:33.557 --> 00:12:36.076
Yeah, and it was very fortunate to do that.
303
00:12:36.076 --> 00:12:36.909
Yeah, yes.
304
00:12:36.909 --> 00:12:38.873
But she, and the group that she had,
305
00:12:38.873 --> 00:12:42.540
just wove together these beautiful services.
306
00:12:43.658 --> 00:12:47.658
And I think I told you before that at one point,
307
00:12:48.598 --> 00:12:50.913
that first evening Kris Smith came up to me
308
00:12:50.913 --> 00:12:53.557
and she said, "You have people from all over the world here
309
00:12:53.557 --> 00:12:56.029
"and they are exhausted.
310
00:12:56.029 --> 00:12:58.397
"You can't keep going."
311
00:12:58.397 --> 00:13:00.980
So I took it on myself to just,
312
00:13:04.063 --> 00:13:05.980
I felt graciously, and--
313
00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:07.652
(both women laugh)
314
00:13:07.652 --> 00:13:11.863
and with ritual at a natural kind of breaking point
315
00:13:11.863 --> 00:13:13.446
to end it
316
00:13:13.446 --> 00:13:14.779
for the evening.
317
00:13:15.654 --> 00:13:17.636
It was a tough call,
318
00:13:17.636 --> 00:13:21.469
and I think if I had been involved in creating
319
00:13:22.544 --> 00:13:26.711
that service it would've been even tougher call to do.
320
00:13:29.727 --> 00:13:31.487
I knew they felt a need to do it
321
00:13:31.487 --> 00:13:33.515
at some later point themselves.
322
00:13:33.515 --> 00:13:35.504
Those who had created it.
323
00:13:35.504 --> 00:13:37.511
And I felt bad about it,
324
00:13:37.511 --> 00:13:39.094
but I trusted Kris.
325
00:13:41.127 --> 00:13:42.794
Right. Yeah, yeah.
326
00:13:44.406 --> 00:13:45.432
But it was all,
327
00:13:45.432 --> 00:13:47.214
it was just absolutely amazing.
328
00:13:47.214 --> 00:13:49.714
I think another was being able
329
00:13:50.996 --> 00:13:53.496
to introduce Chung Hyun Kyung.
330
00:13:57.984 --> 00:14:01.621
In her book, Inheriting Our Mothers' Gardens.
331
00:14:01.621 --> 00:14:03.237
There's a place where she talks about
332
00:14:03.237 --> 00:14:06.310
eating apples under Eve's tree.
333
00:14:06.310 --> 00:14:09.060
And I read that before the event,
334
00:14:12.426 --> 00:14:16.509
and there was something within me that was freed.
335
00:14:19.160 --> 00:14:20.841
From reading that.
336
00:14:20.841 --> 00:14:21.905
Say, say--
337
00:14:21.905 --> 00:14:24.988
I just felt a freeing of my spirit,
338
00:14:28.785 --> 00:14:31.452
from reading that one paragraph.
339
00:14:33.567 --> 00:14:36.270
That maybe the Eve story
340
00:14:36.270 --> 00:14:40.180
had been so indoctrinated in my head,
341
00:14:40.180 --> 00:14:42.430
but suddenly it was, "wow."
342
00:14:43.997 --> 00:14:47.959
That was, we don't have to get all serious
343
00:14:47.959 --> 00:14:50.098
about that particular story.
344
00:14:50.098 --> 00:14:51.603
We can let it go.
345
00:14:51.603 --> 00:14:53.215
Yeah.
We can let it go.
346
00:14:53.215 --> 00:14:54.530
It's garbage.
347
00:14:54.530 --> 00:14:56.098
Uh-huh.
348
00:14:56.098 --> 00:14:57.978
So then, how many other stories
349
00:14:57.978 --> 00:15:00.323
can we let go (laughs)?
350
00:15:00.323 --> 00:15:02.210
And they're also just garbage,
351
00:15:02.210 --> 00:15:04.664
and oppression of women.
352
00:15:04.664 --> 00:15:07.322
And I mean I wasn't thinking that as I read it.
353
00:15:07.322 --> 00:15:09.239
It was just this, "Oh."
354
00:15:12.470 --> 00:15:14.750
So, she was the one person
355
00:15:14.750 --> 00:15:15.876
I wanted to introduce.
356
00:15:15.876 --> 00:15:18.726
We had took turns, and various people had introduced,
357
00:15:18.726 --> 00:15:21.328
but she was the one I wanted to introduce.
358
00:15:21.328 --> 00:15:22.921
That is great.
359
00:15:22.921 --> 00:15:25.395
So I told people that story.
360
00:15:25.395 --> 00:15:26.304
Yes.
361
00:15:26.304 --> 00:15:29.054
About, what that's meant to me.
362
00:15:30.222 --> 00:15:34.408
The next day, she took a bite out of an apple.
363
00:15:34.408 --> 00:15:36.058
And I think she had planned that all along.
364
00:15:36.058 --> 00:15:37.857
I don't think what I said made a difference.
365
00:15:37.857 --> 00:15:40.401
But she had a basket of apples.
366
00:15:40.401 --> 00:15:42.521
I think Manly brought 'em up or something.
367
00:15:42.521 --> 00:15:43.354
Yes.
368
00:15:43.354 --> 00:15:44.187
He talks about that.
369
00:15:44.187 --> 00:15:46.018
She took a big bite out of it.
370
00:15:46.018 --> 00:15:46.851
And that became important
371
00:15:46.851 --> 00:15:48.417
in the community after that.
372
00:15:48.417 --> 00:15:49.250
Yes.
373
00:15:49.250 --> 00:15:50.083
Important symbol.
374
00:15:50.083 --> 00:15:51.249
Mhmm.
Yeah, yeah.
375
00:15:51.249 --> 00:15:52.082
Yeah.
376
00:15:52.082 --> 00:15:54.499
So I think those are probably
377
00:15:55.577 --> 00:15:58.244
the high points of doing it all.
378
00:15:59.911 --> 00:16:02.828
It was just a very spiritual event,
379
00:16:04.666 --> 00:16:08.166
I don't think I went to any of the groups.
380
00:16:09.509 --> 00:16:10.342
The workshops or anything?
381
00:16:10.342 --> 00:16:11.175
The workshops.
382
00:16:11.175 --> 00:16:12.008
Yeah, yeah.
383
00:16:12.008 --> 00:16:15.012
But the people I heard were in the big plenary.
384
00:16:15.012 --> 00:16:16.897
But I didn't make it to any others.
385
00:16:16.897 --> 00:16:18.320
You were busy doing all this other stuff.
386
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:20.776
Right, right.
Yeah, yes.
387
00:16:20.776 --> 00:16:22.663
Well I'm curious if we could talk
388
00:16:22.663 --> 00:16:24.594
about the backlash for a moment.
389
00:16:24.594 --> 00:16:26.682
When that happened, were you surprised,
390
00:16:26.682 --> 00:16:30.460
and were you effected by it directly?
391
00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.793
We knew it was coming out.
392
00:16:34.682 --> 00:16:37.330
Before the event took place,
393
00:16:37.330 --> 00:16:39.698
within the Presbyterian Church.
394
00:16:39.698 --> 00:16:42.516
There was enough noise being made.
395
00:16:42.516 --> 00:16:44.020
I think if they could've,
396
00:16:44.020 --> 00:16:46.172
they would like to have stopped it from happening
397
00:16:46.172 --> 00:16:47.755
in the first place.
398
00:16:48.636 --> 00:16:51.268
I think we were surprised at how quickly
399
00:16:51.268 --> 00:16:52.980
everything happened,
400
00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:54.397
like immediately.
401
00:16:55.260 --> 00:16:56.564
I think,
402
00:16:56.564 --> 00:16:58.507
the day that conference took place
403
00:16:58.507 --> 00:17:00.277
they mailed the letters out.
404
00:17:00.277 --> 00:17:02.955
And they went not just to each church,
405
00:17:02.955 --> 00:17:06.713
but to every single person in the denomination
406
00:17:06.713 --> 00:17:10.535
got a letter about this abomination,
407
00:17:10.535 --> 00:17:12.107
and what we had done.
408
00:17:12.107 --> 00:17:13.303
It took things out of context.
409
00:17:13.303 --> 00:17:15.038
I don't have a copy of the letter
410
00:17:15.038 --> 00:17:16.597
and I don't remember what it said.
411
00:17:16.597 --> 00:17:18.845
But, must be one around someplace.
412
00:17:18.845 --> 00:17:22.178
But just talked about how awful we were,
413
00:17:23.496 --> 00:17:25.440
and how awful the whole thing was.
414
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.712
And we also knew that
415
00:17:26.712 --> 00:17:28.913
the Institute for Religion and Democracy
416
00:17:28.913 --> 00:17:31.000
was involved with it.
417
00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:32.376
I met the reporter.
418
00:17:32.376 --> 00:17:33.209
Oh you did?
419
00:17:33.209 --> 00:17:34.449
A woman from there.
420
00:17:34.449 --> 00:17:36.456
Yes, who was there.
421
00:17:36.456 --> 00:17:40.791
The one who later wrote that we locked the doors,
422
00:17:40.791 --> 00:17:42.215
kept everybody in,
423
00:17:42.215 --> 00:17:46.212
and made people go through various rituals
424
00:17:46.212 --> 00:17:47.884
and that the implication
425
00:17:47.884 --> 00:17:50.691
was the rituals were bad and something.
426
00:17:50.691 --> 00:17:52.108
Some woman among,
427
00:17:53.322 --> 00:17:56.405
that was their reporting for the IRD.
428
00:17:57.934 --> 00:18:02.101
That then-network, the Good News from your denomination,
429
00:18:03.104 --> 00:18:04.604
went after people.
430
00:18:06.113 --> 00:18:08.802
So we were ready to some degree.
431
00:18:08.802 --> 00:18:11.853
We knew something was going to happen.
432
00:18:11.853 --> 00:18:16.020
I think we were, the surprise was how vicious it was.
433
00:18:18.948 --> 00:18:21.615
How untruthful parts of it were.
434
00:18:22.931 --> 00:18:27.096
How there was no conversation, no dialogue.
435
00:18:27.096 --> 00:18:27.929
This is it.
436
00:18:27.929 --> 00:18:31.445
We've made the decision that what they did was bad.
437
00:18:31.445 --> 00:18:33.112
Right. Yeah, yeah.
438
00:18:33.982 --> 00:18:38.323
So when you think back about the forming of the community,
439
00:18:38.323 --> 00:18:41.649
what do you remember about the decision?
440
00:18:41.649 --> 00:18:42.482
Well first of all,
441
00:18:42.482 --> 00:18:44.766
what kind of response you were gonna make?
442
00:18:44.766 --> 00:18:46.091
The group was gonna make?
443
00:18:46.091 --> 00:18:49.500
And then how that led to the community being formed.
444
00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:51.250
Well, again having,
445
00:18:53.461 --> 00:18:55.853
I think the analyzing mind.
446
00:18:55.853 --> 00:18:57.974
Yes (laughs).
447
00:18:57.974 --> 00:18:59.737
For me it was pretty clear
448
00:18:59.737 --> 00:19:02.509
that we had two choices to make.
449
00:19:02.509 --> 00:19:05.176
Either we would take on the IRD,
450
00:19:06.647 --> 00:19:08.487
and the layman and everybody,
451
00:19:08.487 --> 00:19:11.217
and try and duke it out with them.
452
00:19:11.217 --> 00:19:13.134
Or we would do nothing,
453
00:19:14.361 --> 00:19:15.377
I guess there were three choices.
454
00:19:15.377 --> 00:19:17.057
Do nothing, just quit.
455
00:19:17.057 --> 00:19:21.224
Or we could continue on with what we had been doing.
456
00:19:22.271 --> 00:19:23.521
And do it well.
457
00:19:27.382 --> 00:19:29.982
And in my thinking we didn't have the resources
458
00:19:29.982 --> 00:19:31.928
to go after the IRD.
459
00:19:31.928 --> 00:19:33.545
We didn't have the money.
460
00:19:33.545 --> 00:19:35.686
We didn't have the support.
461
00:19:35.686 --> 00:19:37.270
We didn't have anything.
462
00:19:37.270 --> 00:19:39.937
That all we had was who we were.
463
00:19:40.819 --> 00:19:44.216
And to do what we had done the best we could
464
00:19:44.216 --> 00:19:46.391
into the future, for me,
465
00:19:46.391 --> 00:19:48.671
it was kind of a no-brainer.
466
00:19:48.671 --> 00:19:51.696
I think for some others it was a harder decision
467
00:19:51.696 --> 00:19:54.280
to make to do that instead.
468
00:19:54.280 --> 00:19:57.215
Instead of what would they have wanted?
469
00:19:57.215 --> 00:19:58.495
To duke it out with them--
470
00:19:58.495 --> 00:20:00.354
To duke it out. Yeah, yeah.
471
00:20:00.354 --> 00:20:02.115
To take 'em on.
472
00:20:02.115 --> 00:20:04.252
Particularly those who are Presbyterian.
473
00:20:04.252 --> 00:20:05.085
Yes.
474
00:20:05.085 --> 00:20:06.068
And I understand that.
475
00:20:06.068 --> 00:20:06.901
Right.
476
00:20:06.901 --> 00:20:09.887
I totally understand that.
477
00:20:09.887 --> 00:20:13.850
So we had many conversations for awhile about it.
478
00:20:13.850 --> 00:20:17.217
In the meantime hearing more stuff that was coming out.
479
00:20:17.217 --> 00:20:20.313
Like I mentioned the other day
480
00:20:20.313 --> 00:20:21.813
the group of them,
481
00:20:24.245 --> 00:20:26.559
Presbyterians were getting together
482
00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:27.877
for a national meeting.
483
00:20:27.877 --> 00:20:30.210
Not their big summer thing that they have,
484
00:20:30.210 --> 00:20:32.028
but another meeting to talk about things.
485
00:20:32.028 --> 00:20:35.132
At which point, all the people received letters saying,
486
00:20:35.132 --> 00:20:36.964
"If you're told to sit around tables,
487
00:20:36.964 --> 00:20:39.628
"insist that you line up in rows.
488
00:20:39.628 --> 00:20:42.788
"Because you lose power if you sit around a round table."
489
00:20:42.788 --> 00:20:44.276
And we laughed about that.
490
00:20:44.276 --> 00:20:46.340
We just said, "Well that's just crazy."
491
00:20:46.340 --> 00:20:47.173
Yeah.
492
00:20:47.173 --> 00:20:48.006
That's just crazy.
493
00:20:48.006 --> 00:20:49.419
What are they talking about?
494
00:20:49.419 --> 00:20:50.795
Yeah.
495
00:20:50.795 --> 00:20:54.971
So to me, I was (laughs),
496
00:20:54.971 --> 00:20:59.138
it didn't make sense some of what they were saying.
497
00:21:00.550 --> 00:21:02.741
They were seeking power.
498
00:21:02.741 --> 00:21:03.574
Yeah.
499
00:21:03.574 --> 00:21:04.459
They were all seeking power.
500
00:21:04.459 --> 00:21:08.042
And I think for the IRD it was to shut down
501
00:21:09.066 --> 00:21:12.984
the mainline denominations from their social justice,
502
00:21:12.984 --> 00:21:14.317
kind of agendas.
503
00:21:16.508 --> 00:21:20.418
The more progressive politics that went along
504
00:21:20.418 --> 00:21:21.712
with many in the mainline.
505
00:21:21.712 --> 00:21:22.773
Mhmm.
506
00:21:22.773 --> 00:21:24.019
Social justice.
507
00:21:24.019 --> 00:21:26.644
I mean I'm not speaking for all the mainline churches
508
00:21:26.644 --> 00:21:29.060
because they're very conservative people,
509
00:21:29.060 --> 00:21:31.860
and some of our mainline churches also.
510
00:21:31.860 --> 00:21:34.565
But I think generally they were seen
511
00:21:34.565 --> 00:21:37.023
as being more progressive.
512
00:21:37.023 --> 00:21:38.534
Needed to be shut down some.
513
00:21:38.534 --> 00:21:40.331
Mhmm, mhmm.
514
00:21:40.331 --> 00:21:41.490
Yeah, yeah.
515
00:21:41.490 --> 00:21:42.388
Yeah.
Yeah.
516
00:21:42.388 --> 00:21:43.388
So, again,
517
00:21:44.231 --> 00:21:46.978
we didn't have the resources to take 'em on.
518
00:21:46.978 --> 00:21:51.828
But I also felt like it was just kind of a woman's way
519
00:21:51.828 --> 00:21:55.326
of doing things to just keep on doing what we do well.
520
00:21:55.326 --> 00:21:57.463
And be strong in it and clear,
521
00:21:57.463 --> 00:21:59.046
and be who we are.
522
00:21:59.046 --> 00:22:03.213
Rather than go get into a boxing match with somebody
523
00:22:04.163 --> 00:22:07.885
and use up our resources in that way.
524
00:22:07.885 --> 00:22:10.450
It just, to me it didn't make any sense.
525
00:22:10.450 --> 00:22:12.106
Yeah, yeah.
526
00:22:12.106 --> 00:22:14.659
So, you stayed involved then in Re-Imagining,
527
00:22:14.659 --> 00:22:18.580
what else did you do after that '93 conference?
528
00:22:18.580 --> 00:22:21.247
Well, I continued on as chair,
529
00:22:22.650 --> 00:22:24.115
and I can't remember,
530
00:22:24.115 --> 00:22:27.198
I continued on longer than Kathy did.
531
00:22:28.081 --> 00:22:29.998
By then I was ordained,
532
00:22:31.209 --> 00:22:33.417
and I was ordained in '95,
533
00:22:33.417 --> 00:22:37.213
and was doing an intermountain mount video.
534
00:22:37.213 --> 00:22:39.754
And so I would drive in for things
535
00:22:39.754 --> 00:22:42.754
with meetings, and I kept the books.
536
00:22:44.103 --> 00:22:44.936
Did you? (laughs)
537
00:22:44.936 --> 00:22:46.609
Yeah, we didn't have computers to do it.
538
00:22:46.609 --> 00:22:50.894
While we were there we did get a computer to do it.
539
00:22:50.894 --> 00:22:54.765
We incorporated ourselves so we were no longer a part
540
00:22:54.765 --> 00:22:56.805
of the Counsels of Churches.
541
00:22:56.805 --> 00:22:58.838
We were our own entity.
542
00:22:58.838 --> 00:23:02.505
We had an office space in the church center.
543
00:23:03.430 --> 00:23:06.347
We had a a part-time office person.
544
00:23:07.271 --> 00:23:12.061
And we decided then to keep doing the conferences.
545
00:23:12.061 --> 00:23:15.478
The book that Nancy and Pam came out with
546
00:23:16.629 --> 00:23:19.018
was signed up at that time,
547
00:23:19.018 --> 00:23:22.466
and so they started working on that.
548
00:23:22.466 --> 00:23:26.455
Sally was still involved, but not as a staff person.
549
00:23:26.455 --> 00:23:28.478
Not as a staff person for the Counsel of Churches?
550
00:23:28.478 --> 00:23:29.724
No, she was still staff
551
00:23:29.724 --> 00:23:30.733
for the Counsel of Churches,
552
00:23:30.733 --> 00:23:32.301
but not for Re-Imagining.
553
00:23:32.301 --> 00:23:33.733
I see, okay.
In particular.
554
00:23:33.733 --> 00:23:35.973
I see. Yeah, yeah.
555
00:23:35.973 --> 00:23:39.870
So were you involved the whole 10 years of Re-Imagining?
556
00:23:39.870 --> 00:23:42.537
No, no I didn't stay involved.
557
00:23:45.489 --> 00:23:47.412
Doing interims out of state,
558
00:23:47.412 --> 00:23:50.058
they were mainly out state where I was doing them.
559
00:23:50.058 --> 00:23:53.707
So I think I was around maybe for a couple years,
560
00:23:53.707 --> 00:23:55.407
and then turned it over.
561
00:23:55.407 --> 00:23:57.436
There were many others
562
00:23:57.436 --> 00:23:59.144
that wanted to be involved.
563
00:23:59.144 --> 00:24:01.557
Well, now, you're a really important person
564
00:24:01.557 --> 00:24:03.933
in terms of bringing Re-Imagining back
565
00:24:03.933 --> 00:24:06.087
and reincorporating it.
566
00:24:06.087 --> 00:24:07.458
Getting it going again.
567
00:24:07.458 --> 00:24:08.313
You know I was thinking
568
00:24:08.313 --> 00:24:10.032
about that the other day.
569
00:24:10.032 --> 00:24:12.449
That as far as contributions,
570
00:24:15.257 --> 00:24:17.213
that's probably a bigger contribution
571
00:24:17.213 --> 00:24:18.726
than what I did before (laughs).
572
00:24:18.726 --> 00:24:19.559
How interesting.
573
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:20.635
Say more about that.
574
00:24:20.635 --> 00:24:22.885
That's interesting.
Well.
575
00:24:26.768 --> 00:24:29.852
I think we were all sad when it ended.
576
00:24:29.852 --> 00:24:32.185
Understood, and it was okay.
577
00:24:33.556 --> 00:24:36.829
But it was just Nadine and I at Plymouth Church.
578
00:24:36.829 --> 00:24:38.435
We're both members at Plymouth
579
00:24:38.435 --> 00:24:41.268
who realized it had been 20 years,
580
00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:44.501
why not have a reunion?
581
00:24:44.501 --> 00:24:47.372
It wasn't with the idea of
582
00:24:47.372 --> 00:24:50.205
reincorporating and to keep going.
583
00:24:51.327 --> 00:24:52.767
It was just,
584
00:24:52.767 --> 00:24:54.962
let's get together.
585
00:24:54.962 --> 00:24:58.366
And so, it was fun to see people again.
586
00:24:58.366 --> 00:25:02.033
And get to know what people have been doing.
587
00:25:03.062 --> 00:25:07.145
And somehow then we realized that it wasn't over.
588
00:25:08.540 --> 00:25:12.623
So this smaller group then decided to keep going.
589
00:25:14.327 --> 00:25:17.913
And, we didn't know what we would do.
590
00:25:17.913 --> 00:25:20.137
It was just, "Well, let's see."
591
00:25:20.137 --> 00:25:21.329
I think I've said this before,
592
00:25:21.329 --> 00:25:22.764
it was Kathy Austin Molly who said,
593
00:25:22.764 --> 00:25:23.924
"Well the last thing it needs
594
00:25:23.924 --> 00:25:26.575
"is a bunch of 70, 80 and 90 year olds."
595
00:25:26.575 --> 00:25:29.992
So then it became a matter of, I thought,
596
00:25:32.653 --> 00:25:36.220
"Well, social media, nobody knows how old we are."
597
00:25:36.220 --> 00:25:39.921
And let's figure out how to turn it over.
598
00:25:39.921 --> 00:25:43.023
Then we all started talking about those things.
599
00:25:43.023 --> 00:25:45.109
How do we turn it over?
600
00:25:45.109 --> 00:25:49.182
And we would not be doing what we're doing
601
00:25:49.182 --> 00:25:52.065
if you hadn't gotten us sabbatical.
602
00:25:52.065 --> 00:25:55.785
We would not be, I can't imagine where we would be.
603
00:25:55.785 --> 00:25:57.526
But the contacts that you're making
604
00:25:57.526 --> 00:25:59.491
and the things that you're doing.
605
00:25:59.491 --> 00:26:01.241
So all I can imagine,
606
00:26:02.578 --> 00:26:05.411
is that God is in the mix somehow.
607
00:26:09.964 --> 00:26:12.816
Again, process theology, we could all say "no."
608
00:26:12.816 --> 00:26:13.672
Yeah.
609
00:26:13.672 --> 00:26:16.839
Or it wouldn't be condemned to hell,
610
00:26:17.746 --> 00:26:18.913
but I'll be fine.
611
00:26:18.913 --> 00:26:22.080
But I think if we're open to what God,
612
00:26:25.475 --> 00:26:26.973
what She wants.
613
00:26:26.973 --> 00:26:28.631
Yeah.
614
00:26:28.631 --> 00:26:30.069
And that's what's happening.
615
00:26:30.069 --> 00:26:31.061
Mhmm, mhmm.
616
00:26:31.061 --> 00:26:32.533
There's such a great group
617
00:26:32.533 --> 00:26:34.933
that's stuck with it and stayed there,
618
00:26:34.933 --> 00:26:37.109
and everybody can't make it all the time.
619
00:26:37.109 --> 00:26:39.109
But for the most part,
620
00:26:39.109 --> 00:26:41.776
there's such a commitment there.
621
00:26:42.709 --> 00:26:45.578
And it's kinda nice knowing there's these other people
622
00:26:45.578 --> 00:26:48.067
who are out there that when ya see 'em
623
00:26:48.067 --> 00:26:50.650
are encouraging and supportive.
624
00:26:51.918 --> 00:26:54.673
And then it's expanding out into other organizations
625
00:26:54.673 --> 00:26:56.186
like you've found.
626
00:26:56.186 --> 00:26:57.057
Yes.
627
00:26:57.057 --> 00:26:59.202
The seminaries,
628
00:26:59.202 --> 00:27:01.035
and the organizations,
629
00:27:03.297 --> 00:27:04.599
and we have to do it.
630
00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:07.343
It's like now we cannot not do it.
631
00:27:07.343 --> 00:27:08.343
Right, yeah.
632
00:27:08.343 --> 00:27:09.215
We have to do it.
633
00:27:09.215 --> 00:27:10.431
Yes, yeah.
634
00:27:10.431 --> 00:27:11.711
Whatever it is.
635
00:27:11.711 --> 00:27:12.688
(both women laugh)
636
00:27:12.688 --> 00:27:13.626
It's in process, right?
637
00:27:13.626 --> 00:27:14.591
It's a process.
638
00:27:14.591 --> 00:27:16.655
And it will unfold.
639
00:27:16.655 --> 00:27:17.727
It will get there.
640
00:27:17.727 --> 00:27:18.560
Yeah.
641
00:27:20.108 --> 00:27:20.941
You know you've been an important person
642
00:27:20.941 --> 00:27:23.336
with the beginning, and now at this moment.
643
00:27:23.336 --> 00:27:26.169
How would you define Re-Imagining?
644
00:27:35.536 --> 00:27:37.036
Re-Imagining is,
645
00:27:40.702 --> 00:27:42.422
in and of itself,
646
00:27:42.422 --> 00:27:44.486
is a safe place.
647
00:27:44.486 --> 00:27:45.319
Hmm.
648
00:27:46.856 --> 00:27:48.606
It is a safe place.
649
00:27:50.355 --> 00:27:52.938
For women of all walks of life,
650
00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:55.132
and men as well,
651
00:27:56.474 --> 00:28:00.641
to think about what it means to be in a relationship
652
00:28:06.237 --> 00:28:09.654
with something that's bigger than we are.
653
00:28:12.251 --> 00:28:14.668
Whatever you want to call it.
654
00:28:15.566 --> 00:28:17.190
God is the word that works for me,
655
00:28:17.190 --> 00:28:21.357
just because it's short and covers so many things.
656
00:28:24.315 --> 00:28:28.482
It's a safe place for people to explore what it means
657
00:28:34.152 --> 00:28:35.992
to be a person of faith.
658
00:28:35.992 --> 00:28:37.088
Yeah.
659
00:28:37.088 --> 00:28:41.446
What it means to be a woman person of faith.
660
00:28:41.446 --> 00:28:44.923
What it means to be a gay woman person of faith,
661
00:28:44.923 --> 00:28:47.680
a black gay woman person of faith.
662
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.847
Every possibility you can imagine, we don't have to agree.
663
00:28:53.769 --> 00:28:56.034
We don't have to come to a doctrine.
664
00:28:56.034 --> 00:29:00.375
We don't have to promise that we're going to adhere
665
00:29:00.375 --> 00:29:04.206
to this belief for the rest of our lives even.
666
00:29:04.206 --> 00:29:08.206
I could change my mind tomorrow about something.
667
00:29:09.204 --> 00:29:12.621
It freed me to come to my own conclusions
668
00:29:14.765 --> 00:29:17.182
about what Jesus' life meant,
669
00:29:18.177 --> 00:29:20.673
and about atonement.
670
00:29:20.673 --> 00:29:22.756
Which I don't believe in.
671
00:29:23.745 --> 00:29:26.946
Jesus didn't have to die on the cross for us
672
00:29:26.946 --> 00:29:29.613
to have a relationship with God.
673
00:29:30.829 --> 00:29:34.207
Sacrifices don't have to be made.
674
00:29:34.207 --> 00:29:38.533
They might be made because of choices people make.
675
00:29:38.533 --> 00:29:41.028
But they don't have to be made.
676
00:29:41.028 --> 00:29:43.695
There's no glory in a sacrifice.
677
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:46.632
It might happen right?
678
00:29:48.184 --> 00:29:51.017
So I think it freed me up to find,
679
00:29:52.498 --> 00:29:54.426
and I think that's what it's about,
680
00:29:54.426 --> 00:29:57.259
is finding a life-giving theology,
681
00:29:59.245 --> 00:30:01.162
a love-giving theology,
682
00:30:03.376 --> 00:30:05.626
a justice-seeking theology,
683
00:30:06.704 --> 00:30:09.341
an understanding of a God who wants that
684
00:30:09.341 --> 00:30:12.841
for all of creation, whatever that may be.
685
00:30:13.751 --> 00:30:14.668
So, sermon.
686
00:30:15.822 --> 00:30:17.686
(both women laugh)
687
00:30:17.686 --> 00:30:18.519
Preach it!
688
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:19.352
Yeah!
689
00:30:22.102 --> 00:30:23.790
How would you say that feminist theology
690
00:30:23.790 --> 00:30:26.870
effected the way the community was structured
691
00:30:26.870 --> 00:30:28.120
and functioned?
692
00:30:31.844 --> 00:30:32.677
Well we,
693
00:30:36.116 --> 00:30:40.283
were very intentional about things being relational.
694
00:30:42.450 --> 00:30:44.234
Whether it was our meetings
695
00:30:44.234 --> 00:30:46.532
where we checked in ahead of time,
696
00:30:46.532 --> 00:30:48.002
and learned about each other,
697
00:30:48.002 --> 00:30:50.752
and commiserated with each other.
698
00:30:53.994 --> 00:30:56.077
Oh, those kind of things.
699
00:31:00.562 --> 00:31:02.535
Yeah it was mainly about relationships
700
00:31:02.535 --> 00:31:04.535
and making those happen.
701
00:31:06.858 --> 00:31:08.288
Again, the round tables,
702
00:31:08.288 --> 00:31:10.066
that was about relationships.
703
00:31:10.066 --> 00:31:12.978
Moving people around, scribbling.
704
00:31:12.978 --> 00:31:16.169
It was about the flow of your spirit
705
00:31:16.169 --> 00:31:18.187
in some way coming out.
706
00:31:18.187 --> 00:31:19.937
The worship services,
707
00:31:21.466 --> 00:31:25.865
that we blessed each of the speakers when they came forward.
708
00:31:25.865 --> 00:31:29.532
That was about the relationship piece again.
709
00:31:30.394 --> 00:31:32.058
And a relationship with God,
710
00:31:32.058 --> 00:31:35.251
and with the people who were there,
711
00:31:35.251 --> 00:31:36.840
and the people who were speaking.
712
00:31:36.840 --> 00:31:41.007
So, I think feminism to me is many different things,
713
00:31:42.625 --> 00:31:44.249
a wide variety of things.
714
00:31:44.249 --> 00:31:46.537
But when you say feminist theology,
715
00:31:46.537 --> 00:31:49.204
then that's about relationships.
716
00:31:51.334 --> 00:31:55.501
And I think that's what we put forward as a priority.
717
00:31:57.307 --> 00:31:59.220
And I think that when we were negotiating
718
00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:00.803
about the lesbians,
719
00:32:02.135 --> 00:32:05.176
that too, it was about relationships.
720
00:32:05.176 --> 00:32:06.679
And we developed relationships.
721
00:32:06.679 --> 00:32:10.059
I remember Kathy and I standing,
722
00:32:10.059 --> 00:32:13.578
leaning back against a wall as they did their thing.
723
00:32:13.578 --> 00:32:15.842
We weren't a part of what happened.
724
00:32:15.842 --> 00:32:18.934
They had the power and the control to do
725
00:32:18.934 --> 00:32:20.447
what they wanted to do.
726
00:32:20.447 --> 00:32:23.047
We just stood there smiling.
727
00:32:23.047 --> 00:32:25.441
(both women laugh)
728
00:32:25.441 --> 00:32:26.447
And we look at each other,
729
00:32:26.447 --> 00:32:28.364
and we smile some more.
730
00:32:29.447 --> 00:32:31.891
And it just felt, it felt so right.
731
00:32:31.891 --> 00:32:33.975
And again, it's the relationships.
732
00:32:33.975 --> 00:32:35.945
That's what it's about.
733
00:32:35.945 --> 00:32:37.778
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
734
00:32:38.631 --> 00:32:40.131
I love that image.
735
00:32:41.395 --> 00:32:44.680
What challenges would you say were faced by the community
736
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:45.804
during it's existence?
737
00:32:45.804 --> 00:32:48.137
And how were they addressed?
738
00:32:49.403 --> 00:32:50.236
Hmm.
739
00:32:53.701 --> 00:32:56.526
Well, as with every organization,
740
00:32:56.526 --> 00:32:57.909
just to get this off the table.
741
00:32:57.909 --> 00:32:59.725
There was always money issues.
742
00:32:59.725 --> 00:33:00.558
Yes.
743
00:33:01.492 --> 00:33:05.325
And so we just kept asking people for money,
744
00:33:06.623 --> 00:33:10.910
and there were some who were generous and kind.
745
00:33:10.910 --> 00:33:13.840
Many, many who gave of course what they could.
746
00:33:13.840 --> 00:33:15.934
But there were some who could give more.
747
00:33:15.934 --> 00:33:18.851
So that, and then the Presbyterians
748
00:33:21.289 --> 00:33:24.523
gave quite a bit of money for the first event.
749
00:33:24.523 --> 00:33:27.099
But see again, it was all part of this much bigger thing.
750
00:33:27.099 --> 00:33:31.266
The Decade for Women, Churches in Solidarity with Women,
751
00:33:33.460 --> 00:33:36.460
that was a big deal internationally.
752
00:33:38.301 --> 00:33:40.109
So this was just a piece of it.
753
00:33:40.109 --> 00:33:42.885
Probably the biggest piece that happened
754
00:33:42.885 --> 00:33:46.560
in the United States I would venture a guess.
755
00:33:46.560 --> 00:33:49.060
And so they put money into it,
756
00:33:51.097 --> 00:33:52.273
more so than others did.
757
00:33:52.273 --> 00:33:55.606
So then that was also used against them.
758
00:33:57.222 --> 00:33:59.889
So, the money piece is an issue.
759
00:34:13.272 --> 00:34:16.605
It was hard to hear people who were hurt
760
00:34:18.190 --> 00:34:21.444
by their denominations because of the event.
761
00:34:21.444 --> 00:34:22.277
Yeah.
762
00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:28.207
So I think that was a difficult piece for us.
763
00:34:28.207 --> 00:34:31.966
Even moving forward it was, "How many more people
764
00:34:31.966 --> 00:34:34.442
"are gonna get hurt if we do this?"
765
00:34:34.442 --> 00:34:35.275
Right.
766
00:34:36.922 --> 00:34:40.839
But that's been the story from the beginning.
767
00:34:44.586 --> 00:34:46.503
So we still kept going.
768
00:34:48.433 --> 00:34:51.350
I think it was shifting gears then.
769
00:34:52.636 --> 00:34:54.444
That was probably the next big,
770
00:34:54.444 --> 00:34:56.724
shifting gears to going long term.
771
00:34:56.724 --> 00:34:58.486
What does that mean?
772
00:34:58.486 --> 00:34:59.748
It means incorporating it.
773
00:34:59.748 --> 00:35:01.228
It means having our own staff.
774
00:35:01.228 --> 00:35:03.669
It means having our own office space.
775
00:35:03.669 --> 00:35:05.780
It means phone number.
776
00:35:05.780 --> 00:35:06.684
It means--
777
00:35:06.684 --> 00:35:08.237
(both women laugh)
778
00:35:08.237 --> 00:35:12.154
All these different things that had to be done.
779
00:35:13.413 --> 00:35:17.580
So it was just the nuts and bolts of being an organization.
780
00:35:18.773 --> 00:35:22.296
And wanting at the same time to keep the big picture.
781
00:35:22.296 --> 00:35:24.296
And there were those who
782
00:35:25.608 --> 00:35:30.024
were really good at putting events together,
783
00:35:30.024 --> 00:35:33.572
and knowing who to invite and where to find people.
784
00:35:33.572 --> 00:35:35.125
So they did that really well.
785
00:35:35.125 --> 00:35:38.482
But again, it was getting the space,
786
00:35:38.482 --> 00:35:39.747
getting the people,
787
00:35:39.747 --> 00:35:43.497
putting everything together for each of them.
788
00:35:44.869 --> 00:35:49.036
Probably a sense of a need to live up to expectations.
789
00:35:51.513 --> 00:35:52.794
Say some more about that.
790
00:35:52.794 --> 00:35:53.947
Well, that had been
791
00:35:53.947 --> 00:35:56.339
a big blowout event in 1993.
792
00:35:56.339 --> 00:35:57.497
Right.
793
00:35:57.497 --> 00:35:58.649
How do we match that?
794
00:35:58.649 --> 00:36:00.137
How can we live up to that
795
00:36:00.137 --> 00:36:02.321
when it's not going to be like that?
796
00:36:02.321 --> 00:36:03.377
Right.
797
00:36:03.377 --> 00:36:04.929
And so it was coming to terms
798
00:36:04.929 --> 00:36:06.812
with what it could be,
799
00:36:06.812 --> 00:36:08.753
and what we could have it be,
800
00:36:08.753 --> 00:36:12.302
and hope that people still wanted to be a part of it.
801
00:36:12.302 --> 00:36:13.570
Yeah, and when you said
802
00:36:13.570 --> 00:36:15.387
"keeping the big picture in mind",
803
00:36:15.387 --> 00:36:18.212
what was the big picture?
804
00:36:18.212 --> 00:36:22.482
Oh I think to continue to have this safe place
805
00:36:22.482 --> 00:36:24.982
for women, all kinds of women,
806
00:36:26.006 --> 00:36:30.035
to do their explorations, their questioning,
807
00:36:30.035 --> 00:36:30.979
their wondering,
808
00:36:30.979 --> 00:36:32.396
their processing.
809
00:36:35.020 --> 00:36:37.365
Yeah. Mhmm, mhmm.
810
00:36:37.365 --> 00:36:38.198
Yeah.
811
00:36:38.198 --> 00:36:39.031
Yeah.
812
00:36:40.489 --> 00:36:41.730
Just one other little piece.
813
00:36:41.730 --> 00:36:43.388
Of course.
814
00:36:43.388 --> 00:36:46.365
We were challenged by what people said
815
00:36:46.365 --> 00:36:48.939
at any of the events.
816
00:36:48.939 --> 00:36:49.908
So the challenge is a piece
817
00:36:49.908 --> 00:36:51.730
of that questioning and all.
818
00:36:51.730 --> 00:36:54.689
But, I mentioned something to Kris Smith once
819
00:36:54.689 --> 00:36:57.930
about how great they all did,
820
00:36:57.930 --> 00:36:59.234
and how wonderful it was,
821
00:36:59.234 --> 00:37:00.937
and they challenged us all.
822
00:37:00.937 --> 00:37:05.104
And her comment was, "No, you challenged us first.
823
00:37:07.967 --> 00:37:11.304
"You challenged us to do something more."
824
00:37:11.304 --> 00:37:12.221
Wow. Wow.
825
00:37:15.500 --> 00:37:17.372
That's I think pretty significant.
826
00:37:17.372 --> 00:37:19.107
Absolutely.
827
00:37:19.107 --> 00:37:20.516
And we didn't realize that.
828
00:37:20.516 --> 00:37:21.516
Yes. Yeah.
829
00:37:23.259 --> 00:37:25.427
Wow, that was an important thing to say.
830
00:37:25.427 --> 00:37:27.363
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
831
00:37:27.363 --> 00:37:28.196
Wow.
832
00:37:29.979 --> 00:37:31.491
Mary Kay, you think about this.
833
00:37:31.491 --> 00:37:34.158
What was most significant to you
834
00:37:35.224 --> 00:37:37.705
about Re-Imagining and why?
835
00:37:37.705 --> 00:37:38.538
Oh my.
836
00:37:48.892 --> 00:37:51.444
Well as I'm pondering different words,
837
00:37:51.444 --> 00:37:54.611
the one that grips me is faithfulness.
838
00:37:57.116 --> 00:37:57.949
Hmm.
839
00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:04.793
Say some more about that, that's a powerful word.
840
00:38:06.169 --> 00:38:08.419
I think it had to do with
841
00:38:11.325 --> 00:38:13.075
God being in the mix.
842
00:38:14.285 --> 00:38:15.663
Wanting us to do what we did,
843
00:38:15.663 --> 00:38:17.996
wanting me to do what I did.
844
00:38:19.374 --> 00:38:23.390
And that's the piece that continues on now,
845
00:38:23.390 --> 00:38:24.807
is to keep at it.
846
00:38:30.492 --> 00:38:32.242
I think faithfulness,
847
00:38:34.747 --> 00:38:36.891
in doing it, in being a part of it.
848
00:38:36.891 --> 00:38:40.555
But then faithfulness in continuing on
849
00:38:40.555 --> 00:38:42.118
in sermons that I preach
850
00:38:42.118 --> 00:38:45.951
or classes I held to lift up those same things
851
00:38:47.357 --> 00:38:48.597
that have been lifted up
852
00:38:48.597 --> 00:38:50.680
and were being lifted up.
853
00:38:51.871 --> 00:38:54.208
So, I don't know why,
854
00:38:54.208 --> 00:38:57.119
but that's the word that comes to my mind is--
855
00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:57.952
Yeah.
856
00:38:59.644 --> 00:39:01.269
And not just my faithfulness,
857
00:39:01.269 --> 00:39:05.729
but everybody who is involved and was there.
858
00:39:05.729 --> 00:39:07.279
Everybody's faithfulness.
859
00:39:07.279 --> 00:39:08.527
That's a great word.
860
00:39:08.527 --> 00:39:09.360
Yeah.
861
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:10.874
Yeah.
862
00:39:10.874 --> 00:39:11.791
Yeah, yeah.
863
00:39:14.907 --> 00:39:17.817
Did your involvement in Re-Imaging change your perspective
864
00:39:17.817 --> 00:39:20.734
on feminist theology or the church?
865
00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:33.552
Another reason I went into interims,
866
00:39:33.552 --> 00:39:35.728
was that I'm rather cynical about the church
867
00:39:35.728 --> 00:39:37.228
to start out with.
868
00:39:38.326 --> 00:39:40.576
Having a dad as a minister,
869
00:39:43.084 --> 00:39:46.917
I knew churches at their best and their worst.
870
00:39:48.271 --> 00:39:49.604
And didn't know,
871
00:39:51.287 --> 00:39:54.120
I figured short times in churches,
872
00:39:54.979 --> 00:39:56.538
I would be gone before--
873
00:39:56.538 --> 00:39:59.122
(both women laugh)
874
00:39:59.122 --> 00:40:01.192
Like I'd learn about the nastiness,
875
00:40:01.192 --> 00:40:02.776
and I'd learn about what their issues were.
876
00:40:02.776 --> 00:40:04.560
But I could help them deal with it
877
00:40:04.560 --> 00:40:09.037
rather than have have to live with 'em for 10 years or so.
878
00:40:09.037 --> 00:40:11.037
So, I'd always probably,
879
00:40:13.272 --> 00:40:16.957
as an adult anyway been rather cynical about the church.
880
00:40:16.957 --> 00:40:18.590
So all this did was--
881
00:40:18.590 --> 00:40:21.893
(both women laugh)
882
00:40:21.893 --> 00:40:23.158
Affirm my cynicism,
883
00:40:23.158 --> 00:40:26.465
and again the disconnect that creates my cynicism,
884
00:40:26.465 --> 00:40:29.548
is how can we believe in a loving God
885
00:40:31.617 --> 00:40:34.233
and treat each other so un-lovingly?
886
00:40:34.233 --> 00:40:35.121
Yeah.
887
00:40:35.121 --> 00:40:36.158
How can we do that?
888
00:40:36.158 --> 00:40:37.245
Yeah.
889
00:40:37.245 --> 00:40:39.837
And we keep doing that all the time.
890
00:40:39.837 --> 00:40:42.504
And as far as feminist theology,
891
00:40:48.660 --> 00:40:49.910
I think it took
892
00:40:53.070 --> 00:40:56.320
anybody who's not a straight white male
893
00:40:59.299 --> 00:41:00.382
to break open
894
00:41:03.992 --> 00:41:05.992
the theologies into more
895
00:41:08.864 --> 00:41:11.114
than what they have become.
896
00:41:12.542 --> 00:41:13.375
Because,
897
00:41:16.468 --> 00:41:21.076
straight white males just don't question what's there.
898
00:41:21.076 --> 00:41:23.140
It's just part of who they are,
899
00:41:23.140 --> 00:41:25.643
and it's always been that way.
900
00:41:25.643 --> 00:41:29.549
So when other people start to break away and say,
901
00:41:29.549 --> 00:41:30.900
"Have you thought about it this way?"
902
00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:33.733
Or, "Why don't you consider this?"
903
00:41:38.569 --> 00:41:40.152
It's revolutionary,
904
00:41:41.263 --> 00:41:45.409
and it needs to happen 'cause the scriptures,
905
00:41:45.409 --> 00:41:47.326
the teachings of Jesus,
906
00:41:48.725 --> 00:41:49.629
the love of God,
907
00:41:49.629 --> 00:41:53.212
the wisdom of Sophia is also revolutionary.
908
00:41:55.257 --> 00:41:57.590
Unless you just stand still.
909
00:41:58.550 --> 00:41:59.550
In one spot.
910
00:42:01.842 --> 00:42:03.259
We can't do that.
911
00:42:07.286 --> 00:42:08.574
You're preachin' a good message there.
912
00:42:08.574 --> 00:42:11.491
(both women laugh)
913
00:42:12.574 --> 00:42:14.873
Do you have ideas about contributions
914
00:42:14.873 --> 00:42:17.750
that Re-Imagining made to feminist theology
915
00:42:17.750 --> 00:42:19.000
and or liturgy?
916
00:42:20.247 --> 00:42:22.164
Specific contributions.
917
00:42:27.663 --> 00:42:30.913
I think we all wish it had made more,
918
00:42:31.816 --> 00:42:35.483
that there was more inclusive language used,
919
00:42:36.393 --> 00:42:39.560
that men preachers would be using more
920
00:42:43.364 --> 00:42:47.594
of the women's stories from the Bible to preach
921
00:42:47.594 --> 00:42:50.261
about justice, about God's love.
922
00:42:53.789 --> 00:42:57.956
So I think it wasn't as big as we'd hoped it would be.
923
00:43:00.759 --> 00:43:02.487
And part of that was a backlash,
924
00:43:02.487 --> 00:43:06.654
it's so tragic that people then began to live in fear.
925
00:43:09.023 --> 00:43:12.940
Now I'm in a denomination where I felt nothing.
926
00:43:14.064 --> 00:43:16.201
I was just fine.
927
00:43:16.201 --> 00:43:18.848
There might've been some people in churches,
928
00:43:18.848 --> 00:43:21.432
but it would be up to a local church
929
00:43:21.432 --> 00:43:23.984
to make a decision about a minister.
930
00:43:23.984 --> 00:43:24.817
Right.
931
00:43:24.817 --> 00:43:26.344
Nobody else can decide that.
932
00:43:26.344 --> 00:43:27.440
Yes.
933
00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:30.040
So, I didn't feel anything.
934
00:43:30.040 --> 00:43:34.166
And we're a pretty progressive denomination anyway.
935
00:43:34.166 --> 00:43:34.999
Right.
936
00:43:34.999 --> 00:43:36.702
Ordaining the first woman
937
00:43:36.702 --> 00:43:39.790
in the United States in 1852.
938
00:43:39.790 --> 00:43:40.623
Mhmm.
939
00:43:40.623 --> 00:43:41.706
So, yeah...
940
00:43:52.942 --> 00:43:55.085
Yup, well let's end
941
00:43:55.085 --> 00:43:56.373
by looking toward the future.
942
00:43:56.373 --> 00:43:58.445
And you're really involved in that future,
943
00:43:58.445 --> 00:44:00.092
which is wonderful.
944
00:44:00.092 --> 00:44:02.147
What do you think is the greatest legacy
945
00:44:02.147 --> 00:44:04.647
of the Re-Imagining community?
946
00:44:16.097 --> 00:44:18.764
I think someday in the future,
947
00:44:24.688 --> 00:44:27.605
people are going to be listening to
948
00:44:30.765 --> 00:44:34.151
some of the tapes and all that we're archiving.
949
00:44:34.151 --> 00:44:35.506
Yes.
950
00:44:35.506 --> 00:44:37.923
And, I hope they're saying,
951
00:44:40.051 --> 00:44:41.384
"Well of course.
952
00:44:45.257 --> 00:44:47.610
"What's so big about that?"
953
00:44:47.610 --> 00:44:48.443
Right.
954
00:44:48.443 --> 00:44:50.449
"It's just what we do."
955
00:44:50.449 --> 00:44:53.161
Rather than, "How dare they
956
00:44:53.161 --> 00:44:55.389
"have said those things back then."
957
00:44:55.389 --> 00:44:56.701
(both women laugh)
958
00:44:56.701 --> 00:44:59.677
And I'm not certain where it's going.
959
00:44:59.677 --> 00:45:00.760
Yeah, yeah.
960
00:45:03.357 --> 00:45:05.274
So I think we need to
961
00:45:06.313 --> 00:45:08.753
do what we're gonna be doing
962
00:45:08.753 --> 00:45:12.631
to ensure that that one possibility is that we stay here.
963
00:45:12.631 --> 00:45:14.256
(both women laugh)
964
00:45:14.256 --> 00:45:15.928
At least can go that direction, right?
965
00:45:15.928 --> 00:45:16.936
Right, right, right.
966
00:45:16.936 --> 00:45:17.769
Now what was your question about?
967
00:45:17.769 --> 00:45:20.021
About the greatest legacy.
968
00:45:20.021 --> 00:45:21.776
So I think it's that we did it.
969
00:45:21.776 --> 00:45:22.609
Yeah.
970
00:45:24.420 --> 00:45:29.080
And I almost wonder as people look back on it,
971
00:45:29.080 --> 00:45:33.030
that group in the future that says, "Well of course.
972
00:45:33.030 --> 00:45:35.814
"So what was the big deal?
973
00:45:35.814 --> 00:45:39.064
"Why did anybody react that way to it?"
974
00:45:40.616 --> 00:45:44.283
But if they hadn't reacted the way they did,
975
00:45:45.798 --> 00:45:48.790
we might've had the one event and then nothing else.
976
00:45:48.790 --> 00:45:49.873
Yeah, mhmm.
977
00:45:51.278 --> 00:45:52.512
That's right.
978
00:45:52.512 --> 00:45:55.254
So, I think the legacy is
979
00:45:55.254 --> 00:45:57.701
that we did something at that point in time
980
00:45:57.701 --> 00:46:01.368
that was freeing enough and shocking enough,
981
00:46:02.430 --> 00:46:06.597
that the oppressors didn't want it out of the bag.
982
00:46:08.344 --> 00:46:10.183
And because of that,
983
00:46:10.183 --> 00:46:11.864
something more happened
984
00:46:11.864 --> 00:46:16.390
as far as wanting to get rid of that oppression.
985
00:46:16.390 --> 00:46:17.557
Right, mhmm.
986
00:46:18.958 --> 00:46:21.046
And now we're back at it again.
987
00:46:21.046 --> 00:46:21.879
Right.
988
00:46:21.879 --> 00:46:22.712
Does that?
989
00:46:22.712 --> 00:46:23.545
Oh yes, yes.
990
00:46:23.545 --> 00:46:26.530
That's really good, that's really good.
991
00:46:26.530 --> 00:46:28.577
And I know you're really involved in this.
992
00:46:28.577 --> 00:46:31.664
Thinking about Re-Imagining today,
993
00:46:31.664 --> 00:46:33.640
what are your thoughts about,
994
00:46:33.640 --> 00:46:35.424
what does it mean to Re-Imagine today?
995
00:46:35.424 --> 00:46:38.646
As we're passing it on, what does it mean?
996
00:46:38.646 --> 00:46:40.637
I don't know.
997
00:46:40.637 --> 00:46:45.172
And in some ways that's the exciting piece about it,
998
00:46:45.172 --> 00:46:46.422
is not knowing.
999
00:46:48.705 --> 00:46:51.455
And part of it is that I've been,
1000
00:46:54.144 --> 00:46:56.648
I meant the president of our denomination
1001
00:46:56.648 --> 00:46:59.728
is very much into the whole millennial thing,
1002
00:46:59.728 --> 00:47:01.311
and the church 3.0.
1003
00:47:04.869 --> 00:47:07.036
We've talked about, again,
1004
00:47:09.855 --> 00:47:12.438
being more diverse and younger.
1005
00:47:13.682 --> 00:47:17.599
And the millennialists, and Black Lives Matter,
1006
00:47:18.468 --> 00:47:22.468
and all these pieces that are out there somehow.
1007
00:47:26.770 --> 00:47:28.770
How do we fit into that?
1008
00:47:29.978 --> 00:47:30.978
How do we...
1009
00:47:33.339 --> 00:47:37.589
How do we let happen what needs to happen?
1010
00:47:37.589 --> 00:47:41.738
How do we encourage what needs to happen, to happen?
1011
00:47:41.738 --> 00:47:45.284
When we don't know what it looks like.
1012
00:47:45.284 --> 00:47:48.284
We don't know what it means.
1013
00:47:48.284 --> 00:47:51.148
I don't, and I've read books.
1014
00:47:51.148 --> 00:47:53.565
I'm doing a variety of things
1015
00:47:54.472 --> 00:47:58.639
but I don't know what church 3.0 is going to look like.
1016
00:48:01.588 --> 00:48:03.211
So what can we do?
1017
00:48:03.211 --> 00:48:05.803
What are we doing to try to make it happen?
1018
00:48:05.803 --> 00:48:08.419
Well I think part of it is
1019
00:48:08.419 --> 00:48:11.115
hoping to get some younger people on board.
1020
00:48:11.115 --> 00:48:11.948
Right.
1021
00:48:11.948 --> 00:48:15.190
The webpage is going to make a big difference.
1022
00:48:15.190 --> 00:48:17.502
The work we're doing with seminaries,
1023
00:48:17.502 --> 00:48:20.909
where there are hopefully some of these millennialists
1024
00:48:20.909 --> 00:48:23.476
who are going to seminary and graduating.
1025
00:48:23.476 --> 00:48:26.358
Who will be part of whatever is going to be taking place
1026
00:48:26.358 --> 00:48:27.972
20 or 30 years ago,
1027
00:48:27.972 --> 00:48:28.977
and again what we need to do
1028
00:48:28.977 --> 00:48:32.071
is build relationships with 'em.
1029
00:48:32.071 --> 00:48:33.711
We have to build the relationships with them
1030
00:48:33.711 --> 00:48:37.497
and we have to be able to say to them,
1031
00:48:37.497 --> 00:48:40.851
"We're not trying to get you to create what we did.
1032
00:48:40.851 --> 00:48:44.642
"We don't want you to recreate what we did.
1033
00:48:44.642 --> 00:48:48.642
"We want to be midwives to whatever may be next,
1034
00:48:54.005 --> 00:48:56.005
"and we're here for you.
1035
00:48:58.316 --> 00:49:02.597
"But not to tell you what it needs to be."
1036
00:49:02.597 --> 00:49:05.678
But we have to get those relationships built first.
1037
00:49:05.678 --> 00:49:06.805
Right.
1038
00:49:06.805 --> 00:49:08.566
And just as we built relationships
1039
00:49:08.566 --> 00:49:12.181
among ourselves when we put together the 1993 event,
1040
00:49:12.181 --> 00:49:15.885
and each of the ones that followed.
1041
00:49:15.885 --> 00:49:19.218
I thing the 2018, 25th anniversary piece
1042
00:49:20.574 --> 00:49:22.205
will make a difference.
1043
00:49:22.205 --> 00:49:25.450
And it's set here where we are.
1044
00:49:25.450 --> 00:49:26.757
Yes.
1045
00:49:26.757 --> 00:49:30.257
So, there can be a tangible handing off.
1046
00:49:33.781 --> 00:49:37.698
Psychological, emotional, tangible handing off.
1047
00:49:38.825 --> 00:49:42.408
And see what happens going into the future.
1048
00:49:43.389 --> 00:49:46.830
They will be more diverse than we are,
1049
00:49:46.830 --> 00:49:50.997
they will have altogether different thoughts than we have.
1050
00:49:54.044 --> 00:49:57.739
They won't necessarily trust institutions.
1051
00:49:57.739 --> 00:50:01.351
I know they don't believe in universal truth,
1052
00:50:01.351 --> 00:50:05.105
which I think is exciting, personally.
1053
00:50:05.105 --> 00:50:08.605
So that's what I see that needs to happen.
1054
00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:14.879
But again it's the relationships,
1055
00:50:14.879 --> 00:50:18.264
and we have to figure out how to do that.
1056
00:50:18.264 --> 00:50:19.347
Mhmm, mhmm.
1057
00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:22.744
I have one last practical question.
1058
00:50:22.744 --> 00:50:24.896
You mentioned the website.
1059
00:50:24.896 --> 00:50:27.601
Do you have ideas about what to include in it?
1060
00:50:27.601 --> 00:50:29.768
Who would benefit from it?
1061
00:50:31.349 --> 00:50:32.517
How to get it out there?
1062
00:50:32.517 --> 00:50:36.267
Any ideas about the website and how to do it?
1063
00:50:37.845 --> 00:50:40.927
Well, (laughs),
1064
00:50:40.927 --> 00:50:45.094
I think it has to have links to our partners in all of this,
1065
00:50:46.509 --> 00:50:50.938
including the new one that you just identified.
1066
00:50:50.938 --> 00:50:51.979
Christian Feminism Today.
1067
00:50:51.979 --> 00:50:53.146
Yup, yup.
1068
00:50:53.146 --> 00:50:53.979
Mhmm.
1069
00:50:53.979 --> 00:50:57.062
I think it needs to have documents,
1070
00:50:58.445 --> 00:50:59.845
or at least where they are.
1071
00:50:59.845 --> 00:51:01.773
I think if people can,
1072
00:51:01.773 --> 00:51:05.005
is it possible for people to actually hear
1073
00:51:05.005 --> 00:51:06.893
what Dolores Williams said?
1074
00:51:06.893 --> 00:51:08.582
Yeah, yeah.
1075
00:51:08.582 --> 00:51:10.141
I think those need to be there
1076
00:51:10.141 --> 00:51:11.613
from the beginning.
1077
00:51:11.613 --> 00:51:12.446
Right.
1078
00:51:14.933 --> 00:51:17.614
I think ways to make connections,
1079
00:51:17.614 --> 00:51:20.043
ways to be involved,
1080
00:51:20.043 --> 00:51:22.293
ways to contact us, ways...
1081
00:51:25.381 --> 00:51:26.765
I'm limited (laughs).
1082
00:51:26.765 --> 00:51:27.909
(both women laugh)
1083
00:51:27.909 --> 00:51:31.904
This all sounds good Mary Kay (laughs).
1084
00:51:31.904 --> 00:51:33.321
I use websites,
1085
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:37.443
and I've had people in churches create one for a church,
1086
00:51:37.443 --> 00:51:38.841
but I've not...
1087
00:51:38.841 --> 00:51:39.674
Yeah.
1088
00:51:39.674 --> 00:51:40.507
Yeah.
1089
00:51:40.507 --> 00:51:41.406
It's one of those things,
1090
00:51:41.406 --> 00:51:43.254
you know a good one when you see it.
1091
00:51:43.254 --> 00:51:44.171
Yes, yup.
1092
00:51:45.341 --> 00:51:46.918
Mhmm.
1093
00:51:46.918 --> 00:51:49.960
So, I'm so glad you're doing it.
1094
00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:52.236
It just will make all the difference in the world.
1095
00:51:52.236 --> 00:51:54.596
You can't be anything in this world anymore
1096
00:51:54.596 --> 00:51:55.649
without a website.
1097
00:51:55.649 --> 00:51:56.897
Yeah, it's true.
1098
00:51:56.897 --> 00:51:57.730
Yeah.
1099
00:51:57.730 --> 00:51:58.563
Yeah.
1100
00:51:59.855 --> 00:52:01.690
Is there anything we haven't discussed
1101
00:52:01.690 --> 00:52:03.628
that you would like to say?
1102
00:52:03.628 --> 00:52:04.711
Anything that's on your heart,
1103
00:52:04.711 --> 00:52:08.878
or anything that we've missed that's important to you?
1104
00:52:13.222 --> 00:52:15.056
No, I think you've pulled out more
1105
00:52:15.056 --> 00:52:15.982
than I even thought.
1106
00:52:15.982 --> 00:52:18.364
(both women laugh)
1107
00:52:18.364 --> 00:52:21.068
Well, it was a wonderful conversation.
1108
00:52:21.068 --> 00:52:22.221
Thank you so much Mary Kay,
1109
00:52:22.221 --> 00:52:24.277
and thank you for all the work you're doing
1110
00:52:24.277 --> 00:52:25.276
to keep this goin'.
1111
00:52:25.276 --> 00:52:27.012
Well thank you for all you're doin'
1112
00:52:27.012 --> 00:52:28.118
to keep it goin'.
1113
00:52:28.118 --> 00:52:28.951
Thank you.
1114
00:52:28.951 --> 00:52:29.784
We're all in this together!
1115
00:52:29.784 --> 00:52:30.757
We are, we are.
1116
00:52:30.757 --> 00:52:31.884
Relationships right?
1117
00:52:31.884 --> 00:52:32.717
That's right.
1118
00:52:32.717 --> 00:52:33.920
Exactly, still important.