-: Okay, well thank you so much Mary Kay.
I'm gonna start with some background information.
So could you say your name?
-: Mary Kay Sauter.
-: Great, and are you lay or clergy?
-: Now I'm clergy.
-: Okay, and what denomination?
-: United Church of Christ.
-: Okay, great.
Where and when were you born Mary Kay?
-: I was born in Minneapolis.
April 23, 1945.
-: Okay.
-: The bill came to $84.00.
-: (laughing) No, really?
-: I found it going through my parent's things.
10 days in the hospital.
-: That is incredible.
Both the cost and the number of days in the hospital.
That's amazing.
(both women laugh)
I love that little tidbit.
Where did you go to school?
Graduate or divinity school?
-: I have a B.A. from Bethel.
-: Yes.
-: And an M.B.A.
from the University of North Dakota.
-: Oh!
-: And an MDiv from here
at United Theological Seminary.
-: Oh, very interesting!
Okay, you said now you're ordained.
So, this was at a later point in your life
you went to seminary?
-: I was in seminary
while the Re-Imagining happened.
-: Oh, okay.
-: I started in 1991,
and graduated in 1995.
-: Okay, okay.
Very interesting. Alright.
So, well I think you're starting to answer this.
So this is what you were doing during,
you were at school.
Were you doing any other kind of work?
-: No, I was just going to school.
-: Yeah, that was probably enough (laughs).
-: It was, yes.
-: And what work or ministry did you do
after Re-Imagining?
-: I went into interim ministry.
I'd had one semester of school left,
and in one week,
had a sense of call to do interims.
And first week in seminary,
I learned about process theology.
So people would ask me, "What are you going to do
"when you graduate?"
And I'd say, "I don't know.
"I'm becoming who I will be when I need to decide."
And like I said, in that one week,
it became very clear that I was called to do interim.
So I had never even heard of 'em
before I came to seminary.
-: If you don't mind my asking,
that's so fascinating,
what about interim ministry,
what about it called you?
-: I grew up a minister's kid, slash army brat.
And was very used to going into new situations,
and loved going into new situations and meeting people.
I felt the M.B.A would be a big help in the analysis
and looking at finances,
looking at how things are done.
I am a five on the enneagram, and we analyze.
-: Is that right?
-: Yeah. -: Yes, yes.
-: We are the analyzers,
and a big difference is that I'm an extrovert analyzer,
and most aren't.
-: Oh, interesting.
-: So, not only did I analyze,
but I had to share it.
(both women laugh)
-: That sounds like a good interim minister!
So did you do this at a number of churches?
-: Eight different churches,
and on the conference staff
for the Minnesota Conference of the UCC.
-: Oh, okay.
Very interesting. Wow.
So how and when did you first become aware
of feminist theology?
-: Oh, at seminary I think.
-: That's it.
-: Yeah. -: Yeah.
-: I think I had always figured
there was more to the whole thing
than what we'd been taught.
But I think to put a name to it
and have it be something, it was probably seminary.
-: Mhmm.
And did you resonate with it immediately?
-: Oh yeah.
-: Mhmm.
-: Yup. -: Yeah.
-: Yeah, very clearly.
It was, well of course.
-: Yes.
(both women laugh)
-: Of course.
-: Yes, yes.
-: And I think that,
doing feminist theology,
then it was like, well of course.
Then there's all these other people
who can do theology as well
out of their lives and their experience just like women.
So it broadened it even more.
It wasn't just men and women.
It was various races, various economic groups,
everybody, gays and lesbians.
Everybody can do theology out of their experience.
So, it expanded it even more.
-: Yes, wow.
Well should we talk about your relationship
to the Re-Imagining community?
-: Sure, sure (laughing).
-: And could you tell me about,
what was your relationship?
What kind of roles did you play?
-: I don't remember how I first got into it.
I'm sure it was through the UCC.
But they wanted somebody to be there from the UCC,
and so I was very interested in being a part of it.
I remember going to meetings
and then they were looking for co-chairs.
And they had asked Kathy Austin Molly to be a co-chair.
And I didn't wait to be asked.
I volunteered (laughs).
-: Oh, wow.
What led you to volunteer?
-: I like organizing.
I like the process of meetings.
I like going to meetings.
I suppose a call to do it.
So, I just went up to Sally Hill
and said, "I'd like to be the other co-chair."
I don't know if she would ever have asked me.
I don't know if it was a good decision (laughs).
But I was glad to be a part of it
and to be leading the group.
-: So what was that experience like?
Being a co-chair for that '93 conference?
-: Well, it was quite amazing.
Sally of course carried the bulk
of the responsibility in contacting people.
We'd shared the meetings,
we met and talked ourselves with Sally
about things that needed to be done.
I think even more so at the conference itself.
We were at a very different conference than anybody else.
-: Say some more about that.
-: When spur of the moment decisions
needed to be made,
we were often the ones contacted to make them.
When negotiations needed to take place,
we were the ones doing the negotiating.
Now other people might have been as well,
but as co-chairs we found ourselves often in that role.
So, when, and we mentioned this before,
but when a couple of the speakers couldn't be understood
that were doing the liturgy.
We eventually negotiated,
what they came up with the idea as to how to fix it,
which was then fixed.
But we were the ones going between people often.
-: Yes.
-: Between those who wanted it one way,
and those who wanted it another way (laughs).
The other ones,
when the lesbian women decided that they wanted to come out
to celebrate being lesbians.
It was Kathy and I that were going back and forth
negotiating between them and with the rest of the board.
Because everybody wasn't necessarily
ready for that.
-: Yeah.
-: Even the board members weren't, so we--
-: So during the conference,
while this is going on,
you're trying to talk to individual board members
and work this out?
-: Yup.
-: Wow (laughs).
-: Yeah.
Yeah, because Kris Smith,
I don't know if you're going to interview her, but--
-: I could, I haven't.
Yeah, I could.
-: Because she was a speaker at the event.
-: Yes, right.
-: And she had been Methodist,
was now I think becoming UCC someplace in there.
But she was speaking,
and while she was speaking,
she was going to come out to everybody.
-: Oh, yes.
-: To the whole world.
-: Yes.
-: But before that happened,
a day before that happened,
if my memory is right,
a group of lesbian women decided they wanted to--
-: All come.
-: Either, like I said,
affirm who they were, or some of them to come out.
And it was a break in the flow of the event.
So there were different arguments about it.
Some were saying, "Well, if we let them, then who else?"
Some were saying, "But we've mapped this all out.
"We have a flow to this.
"It's gonna break the flow."
Some were saying, "But we as a board didn't vote on this.
"We didn't decide about this."
And so we just kept all morning long negotiating it out
with various people,
until everybody agreed that it would be okay to do.
-: And do you recall what were the reasons
for why to do it?
What was the persuasive?
-: Well I think it was mainly, how can we not?
They're our sisters.
We believe in letting people have control
over their own lives.
We believe in affirming who people are, our differences.
And it would be interesting to me,
and I thought about this before,
if we hadn't been in that moment,
in that time,
in that intensity,
needing to make a decision one way or the other.
If we had had months and months and months to ponder it
and to figure it out,
what would we have done?
-: Oh, interesting.
-: Would we have come to the same conclusion?
Or would we have been had enough voices from denominations
where it wasn't okay at that time,
that we would've said no.
I don't know.
-: Interesting, yeah.
Very interesting.
Do you have some other strong memories?
Those are really good memories.
They're really important memories.
Are there other things that you,
were really important to you?
-: I think it was the round tables,
was a big deal.
I think moving people around from one place to another.
And I couldn't tell you,
maybe they know whose idea some of these were.
The round tables to me is just a no-brainer
for any kind of meeting.
You're in closer proximity,
and eyeball to eyeball with people.
But it grew out of our meetings
that we would do these things.
And having the speakers in the middle,
then moving people around became important
because otherwise people would always be in the back.
-: Right.
-: So now they were also in the front.
And so we took the time
to move everything from a table to the next one,
or people carried it from one spot to another.
But it was all organized.
And it has to do with people like Jo Ringgenberg
and Mary Gates who are just incredible organizers.
Oh, detail people that you would not believe with energy,
and they were just amazing in what they did.
So on the committee there were people
who were doing all these creative,
well everybody had creative thoughts.
Everybody had input.
That was what we felt was important,
was everybody to have input into things.
Then there were big picture people.
And then there were detail people.
(both women laugh)
And we desperately needed each other
to get through that whole thing.
I think the worship services were,
Madeleine Sue Martin is absolutely
an incredible liturgist and ritualist,
and just amazing.
And I felt fortunate after the event
to have a class from her.
-: Did you?
-: Yeah, and it was very fortunate to do that.
-: Yeah, yes.
-: But she, and the group that she had,
just wove together these beautiful services.
And I think I told you before that at one point,
that first evening Kris Smith came up to me
and she said, "You have people from all over the world here
"and they are exhausted.
"You can't keep going."
So I took it on myself to just,
I felt graciously, and--
(both women laugh)
and with ritual at a natural kind of breaking point
to end it
for the evening.
It was a tough call,
and I think if I had been involved in creating
that service it would've been even tougher call to do.
I knew they felt a need to do it
at some later point themselves.
Those who had created it.
And I felt bad about it,
but I trusted Kris.
-: Right. Yeah, yeah.
-: But it was all,
it was just absolutely amazing.
I think another was being able
to introduce Chung Hyun Kyung.
In her book, Inheriting Our Mothers' Gardens.
There's a place where she talks about
eating apples under Eve's tree.
And I read that before the event,
and there was something within me that was freed.
From reading that.
-: Say, say--
-: I just felt a freeing of my spirit,
from reading that one paragraph.
That maybe the Eve story
had been so indoctrinated in my head,
but suddenly it was, "wow."
That was, we don't have to get all serious
about that particular story.
We can let it go.
-: Yeah. -: We can let it go.
It's garbage.
-: Uh-huh.
-: So then, how many other stories
can we let go (laughs)?
And they're also just garbage,
and oppression of women.
And I mean I wasn't thinking that as I read it.
It was just this, "Oh."
So, she was the one person
I wanted to introduce.
We had took turns, and various people had introduced,
but she was the one I wanted to introduce.
-: That is great.
-: So I told people that story.
-: Yes.
-: About, what that's meant to me.
The next day, she took a bite out of an apple.
And I think she had planned that all along.
I don't think what I said made a difference.
But she had a basket of apples.
I think Manly brought 'em up or something.
-: Yes.
-: He talks about that.
She took a big bite out of it.
-: And that became important
in the community after that.
-: Yes.
-: Important symbol.
-: Mhmm. -: Yeah, yeah.
-: Yeah.
So I think those are probably
the high points of doing it all.
It was just a very spiritual event,
I don't think I went to any of the groups.
-: The workshops or anything?
-: The workshops.
-: Yeah, yeah.
-: But the people I heard were in the big plenary.
But I didn't make it to any others.
-: You were busy doing all this other stuff.
-: Right, right. -: Yeah, yes.
Well I'm curious if we could talk
about the backlash for a moment.
When that happened, were you surprised,
and were you effected by it directly?
-: We knew it was coming out.
Before the event took place,
within the Presbyterian Church.
There was enough noise being made.
I think if they could've,
they would like to have stopped it from happening
in the first place.
I think we were surprised at how quickly
everything happened,
like immediately.
I think,
the day that conference took place
they mailed the letters out.
And they went not just to each church,
but to every single person in the denomination
got a letter about this abomination,
and what we had done.
It took things out of context.
I don't have a copy of the letter
and I don't remember what it said.
But, must be one around someplace.
But just talked about how awful we were,
and how awful the whole thing was.
And we also knew that
the Institute for Religion and Democracy
was involved with it.
I met the reporter.
-: Oh you did?
-: A woman from there.
Yes, who was there.
The one who later wrote that we locked the doors,
kept everybody in,
and made people go through various rituals
and that the implication
was the rituals were bad and something.
Some woman among,
that was their reporting for the IRD.
That then-network, the Good News from your denomination,
went after people.
So we were ready to some degree.
We knew something was going to happen.
I think we were, the surprise was how vicious it was.
How untruthful parts of it were.
How there was no conversation, no dialogue.
This is it.
We've made the decision that what they did was bad.
-: Right. Yeah, yeah.
So when you think back about the forming of the community,
what do you remember about the decision?
Well first of all,
what kind of response you were gonna make?
The group was gonna make?
And then how that led to the community being formed.
-: Well, again having,
I think the analyzing mind.
-: Yes (laughs).
-: For me it was pretty clear
that we had two choices to make.
Either we would take on the IRD,
and the layman and everybody,
and try and duke it out with them.
Or we would do nothing,
I guess there were three choices.
Do nothing, just quit.
Or we could continue on with what we had been doing.
And do it well.
And in my thinking we didn't have the resources
to go after the IRD.
We didn't have the money.
We didn't have the support.
We didn't have anything.
That all we had was who we were.
And to do what we had done the best we could
into the future, for me,
it was kind of a no-brainer.
I think for some others it was a harder decision
to make to do that instead.
-: Instead of what would they have wanted?
-: To duke it out with them--
-: To duke it out. Yeah, yeah.
-: To take 'em on.
Particularly those who are Presbyterian.
-: Yes.
-: And I understand that.
-: Right.
-: I totally understand that.
So we had many conversations for awhile about it.
In the meantime hearing more stuff that was coming out.
Like I mentioned the other day
the group of them,
Presbyterians were getting together
for a national meeting.
Not their big summer thing that they have,
but another meeting to talk about things.
At which point, all the people received letters saying,
"If you're told to sit around tables,
"insist that you line up in rows.
"Because you lose power if you sit around a round table."
And we laughed about that.
We just said, "Well that's just crazy."
-: Yeah.
-: That's just crazy.
What are they talking about?
-: Yeah.
-: So to me, I was (laughs),
it didn't make sense some of what they were saying.
They were seeking power.
-: Yeah.
-: They were all seeking power.
And I think for the IRD it was to shut down
the mainline denominations from their social justice,
kind of agendas.
The more progressive politics that went along
with many in the mainline.
-: Mhmm.
-: Social justice.
I mean I'm not speaking for all the mainline churches
because they're very conservative people,
and some of our mainline churches also.
But I think generally they were seen
as being more progressive.
Needed to be shut down some.
-: Mhmm, mhmm.
Yeah, yeah.
-: Yeah. -: Yeah.
-: So, again,
we didn't have the resources to take 'em on.
But I also felt like it was just kind of a woman's way
of doing things to just keep on doing what we do well.
And be strong in it and clear,
and be who we are.
Rather than go get into a boxing match with somebody
and use up our resources in that way.
It just, to me it didn't make any sense.
-: Yeah, yeah.
So, you stayed involved then in Re-Imagining,
what else did you do after that '93 conference?
-: Well, I continued on as chair,
and I can't remember,
I continued on longer than Kathy did.
By then I was ordained,
and I was ordained in '95,
and was doing an intermountain mount video.
And so I would drive in for things
with meetings, and I kept the books.
-: Did you? (laughs)
-: Yeah, we didn't have computers to do it.
While we were there we did get a computer to do it.
We incorporated ourselves so we were no longer a part
of the Counsels of Churches.
We were our own entity.
We had an office space in the church center.
We had a a part-time office person.
And we decided then to keep doing the conferences.
The book that Nancy and Pam came out with
was signed up at that time,
and so they started working on that.
Sally was still involved, but not as a staff person.
-: Not as a staff person for the Counsel of Churches?
-: No, she was still staff
for the Counsel of Churches,
but not for Re-Imagining.
-: I see, okay. -: In particular.
-: I see. Yeah, yeah.
So were you involved the whole 10 years of Re-Imagining?
-: No, no I didn't stay involved.
Doing interims out of state,
they were mainly out state where I was doing them.
So I think I was around maybe for a couple years,
and then turned it over.
There were many others
that wanted to be involved.
-: Well, now, you're a really important person
in terms of bringing Re-Imagining back
and reincorporating it.
Getting it going again.
-: You know I was thinking
about that the other day.
That as far as contributions,
that's probably a bigger contribution
than what I did before (laughs).
-: How interesting.
Say more about that.
That's interesting. -: Well.
I think we were all sad when it ended.
Understood, and it was okay.
But it was just Nadine and I at Plymouth Church.
We're both members at Plymouth
who realized it had been 20 years,
why not have a reunion?
It wasn't with the idea of
reincorporating and to keep going.
It was just,
let's get together.
And so, it was fun to see people again.
And get to know what people have been doing.
And somehow then we realized that it wasn't over.
So this smaller group then decided to keep going.
And, we didn't know what we would do.
It was just, "Well, let's see."
I think I've said this before,
it was Kathy Austin Molly who said,
"Well the last thing it needs
"is a bunch of 70, 80 and 90 year olds."
So then it became a matter of, I thought,
"Well, social media, nobody knows how old we are."
And let's figure out how to turn it over.
Then we all started talking about those things.
How do we turn it over?
And we would not be doing what we're doing
if you hadn't gotten us sabbatical.
We would not be, I can't imagine where we would be.
But the contacts that you're making
and the things that you're doing.
So all I can imagine,
is that God is in the mix somehow.
Again, process theology, we could all say "no."
-: Yeah.
-: Or it wouldn't be condemned to hell,
but I'll be fine.
But I think if we're open to what God,
what She wants.
-: Yeah.
-: And that's what's happening.
-: Mhmm, mhmm.
-: There's such a great group
that's stuck with it and stayed there,
and everybody can't make it all the time.
But for the most part,
there's such a commitment there.
And it's kinda nice knowing there's these other people
who are out there that when ya see 'em
are encouraging and supportive.
And then it's expanding out into other organizations
like you've found.
-: Yes.
-: The seminaries,
and the organizations,
and we have to do it.
It's like now we cannot not do it.
-: Right, yeah.
-: We have to do it.
-: Yes, yeah.
-: Whatever it is.
(both women laugh)
-: It's in process, right?
-: It's a process.
And it will unfold.
It will get there.
-: Yeah.
You know you've been an important person
with the beginning, and now at this moment.
How would you define Re-Imagining?
-: Re-Imagining is,
in and of itself,
is a safe place.
-: Hmm.
-: It is a safe place.
For women of all walks of life,
and men as well,
to think about what it means to be in a relationship
with something that's bigger than we are.
Whatever you want to call it.
God is the word that works for me,
just because it's short and covers so many things.
It's a safe place for people to explore what it means
to be a person of faith.
-: Yeah.
-: What it means to be a woman person of faith.
What it means to be a gay woman person of faith,
a black gay woman person of faith.
Every possibility you can imagine, we don't have to agree.
We don't have to come to a doctrine.
We don't have to promise that we're going to adhere
to this belief for the rest of our lives even.
I could change my mind tomorrow about something.
It freed me to come to my own conclusions
about what Jesus' life meant,
and about atonement.
Which I don't believe in.
Jesus didn't have to die on the cross for us
to have a relationship with God.
Sacrifices don't have to be made.
They might be made because of choices people make.
But they don't have to be made.
There's no glory in a sacrifice.
It might happen right?
So I think it freed me up to find,
and I think that's what it's about,
is finding a life-giving theology,
a love-giving theology,
a justice-seeking theology,
an understanding of a God who wants that
for all of creation, whatever that may be.
So, sermon.
(both women laugh)
-: Preach it!
-: Yeah!
-: How would you say that feminist theology
effected the way the community was structured
and functioned?
-: Well we,
were very intentional about things being relational.
Whether it was our meetings
where we checked in ahead of time,
and learned about each other,
and commiserated with each other.
Oh, those kind of things.
Yeah it was mainly about relationships
and making those happen.
Again, the round tables,
that was about relationships.
Moving people around, scribbling.
It was about the flow of your spirit
in some way coming out.
The worship services,
that we blessed each of the speakers when they came forward.
That was about the relationship piece again.
And a relationship with God,
and with the people who were there,
and the people who were speaking.
So, I think feminism to me is many different things,
a wide variety of things.
But when you say feminist theology,
then that's about relationships.
And I think that's what we put forward as a priority.
And I think that when we were negotiating
about the lesbians,
that too, it was about relationships.
And we developed relationships.
I remember Kathy and I standing,
leaning back against a wall as they did their thing.
We weren't a part of what happened.
They had the power and the control to do
what they wanted to do.
We just stood there smiling.
(both women laugh)
And we look at each other,
and we smile some more.
And it just felt, it felt so right.
And again, it's the relationships.
That's what it's about.
-: Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
I love that image.
What challenges would you say were faced by the community
during it's existence?
And how were they addressed?
-: Hmm.
Well, as with every organization,
just to get this off the table.
There was always money issues.
-: Yes.
-: And so we just kept asking people for money,
and there were some who were generous and kind.
Many, many who gave of course what they could.
But there were some who could give more.
So that, and then the Presbyterians
gave quite a bit of money for the first event.
But see again, it was all part of this much bigger thing.
The Decade for Women, Churches in Solidarity with Women,
that was a big deal internationally.
So this was just a piece of it.
Probably the biggest piece that happened
in the United States I would venture a guess.
And so they put money into it,
more so than others did.
So then that was also used against them.
So, the money piece is an issue.
It was hard to hear people who were hurt
by their denominations because of the event.
-: Yeah.
-: So I think that was a difficult piece for us.
Even moving forward it was, "How many more people
"are gonna get hurt if we do this?"
-: Right.
-: But that's been the story from the beginning.
So we still kept going.
I think it was shifting gears then.
That was probably the next big,
shifting gears to going long term.
What does that mean?
It means incorporating it.
It means having our own staff.
It means having our own office space.
It means phone number.
It means--
(both women laugh)
All these different things that had to be done.
So it was just the nuts and bolts of being an organization.
And wanting at the same time to keep the big picture.
And there were those who
were really good at putting events together,
and knowing who to invite and where to find people.
So they did that really well.
But again, it was getting the space,
getting the people,
putting everything together for each of them.
Probably a sense of a need to live up to expectations.
-: Say some more about that.
-: Well, that had been
a big blowout event in 1993.
-: Right.
-: How do we match that?
How can we live up to that
when it's not going to be like that?
-: Right.
-: And so it was coming to terms
with what it could be,
and what we could have it be,
and hope that people still wanted to be a part of it.
-: Yeah, and when you said
"keeping the big picture in mind",
what was the big picture?
-: Oh I think to continue to have this safe place
for women, all kinds of women,
to do their explorations, their questioning,
their wondering,
their processing.
-: Yeah. Mhmm, mhmm.
-: Yeah.
-: Just one other little piece.
-: Of course.
-: We were challenged by what people said
at any of the events.
So the challenge is a piece
of that questioning and all.
But, I mentioned something to Kris Smith once
about how great they all did,
and how wonderful it was,
and they challenged us all.
And her comment was, "No, you challenged us first.
"You challenged us to do something more."
-: Wow. Wow.
-: That's I think pretty significant.
-: Absolutely.
-: And we didn't realize that.
-: Yes. Yeah.
Wow, that was an important thing to say.
-: Yeah. -: Yeah, yeah.
Wow.
Mary Kay, you think about this.
What was most significant to you
about Re-Imagining and why?
-: Oh my.
Well as I'm pondering different words,
the one that grips me is faithfulness.
-: Hmm.
Say some more about that, that's a powerful word.
-: I think it had to do with
God being in the mix.
Wanting us to do what we did,
wanting me to do what I did.
And that's the piece that continues on now,
is to keep at it.
I think faithfulness,
in doing it, in being a part of it.
But then faithfulness in continuing on
in sermons that I preach
or classes I held to lift up those same things
that have been lifted up
and were being lifted up.
So, I don't know why,
but that's the word that comes to my mind is--
-: Yeah.
-: And not just my faithfulness,
but everybody who is involved and was there.
Everybody's faithfulness.
-: That's a great word.
-: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Did your involvement in Re-Imaging change your perspective
on feminist theology or the church?
-: Another reason I went into interims,
was that I'm rather cynical about the church
to start out with.
Having a dad as a minister,
I knew churches at their best and their worst.
And didn't know,
I figured short times in churches,
I would be gone before--
(both women laugh)
Like I'd learn about the nastiness,
and I'd learn about what their issues were.
But I could help them deal with it
rather than have have to live with 'em for 10 years or so.
So, I'd always probably,
as an adult anyway been rather cynical about the church.
So all this did was--
(both women laugh)
Affirm my cynicism,
and again the disconnect that creates my cynicism,
is how can we believe in a loving God
and treat each other so un-lovingly?
-: Yeah.
How can we do that?
-: Yeah.
-: And we keep doing that all the time.
And as far as feminist theology,
I think it took
anybody who's not a straight white male
to break open
the theologies into more
than what they have become.
Because,
straight white males just don't question what's there.
It's just part of who they are,
and it's always been that way.
So when other people start to break away and say,
"Have you thought about it this way?"
Or, "Why don't you consider this?"
It's revolutionary,
and it needs to happen 'cause the scriptures,
the teachings of Jesus,
the love of God,
the wisdom of Sophia is also revolutionary.
Unless you just stand still.
In one spot.
We can't do that.
-: You're preachin' a good message there.
(both women laugh)
Do you have ideas about contributions
that Re-Imagining made to feminist theology
and or liturgy?
Specific contributions.
-: I think we all wish it had made more,
that there was more inclusive language used,
that men preachers would be using more
of the women's stories from the Bible to preach
about justice, about God's love.
So I think it wasn't as big as we'd hoped it would be.
And part of that was a backlash,
it's so tragic that people then began to live in fear.
Now I'm in a denomination where I felt nothing.
I was just fine.
There might've been some people in churches,
but it would be up to a local church
to make a decision about a minister.
-: Right.
-: Nobody else can decide that.
-: Yes.
-: So, I didn't feel anything.
And we're a pretty progressive denomination anyway.
-: Right.
-: Ordaining the first woman
in the United States in 1852.
-: Mhmm.
-: So, yeah...
-: Yup, well let's end
by looking toward the future.
And you're really involved in that future,
which is wonderful.
What do you think is the greatest legacy
of the Re-Imagining community?
-: I think someday in the future,
people are going to be listening to
some of the tapes and all that we're archiving.
-: Yes.
-: And, I hope they're saying,
"Well of course.
"What's so big about that?"
-: Right.
-: "It's just what we do."
Rather than, "How dare they
"have said those things back then."
(both women laugh)
And I'm not certain where it's going.
-: Yeah, yeah.
-: So I think we need to
do what we're gonna be doing
to ensure that that one possibility is that we stay here.
(both women laugh)
-: At least can go that direction, right?
-: Right, right, right.
Now what was your question about?
-: About the greatest legacy.
-: So I think it's that we did it.
-: Yeah.
-: And I almost wonder as people look back on it,
that group in the future that says, "Well of course.
"So what was the big deal?
"Why did anybody react that way to it?"
But if they hadn't reacted the way they did,
we might've had the one event and then nothing else.
-: Yeah, mhmm.
That's right.
-: So, I think the legacy is
that we did something at that point in time
that was freeing enough and shocking enough,
that the oppressors didn't want it out of the bag.
And because of that,
something more happened
as far as wanting to get rid of that oppression.
-: Right, mhmm.
-: And now we're back at it again.
-: Right.
-: Does that?
-: Oh yes, yes.
That's really good, that's really good.
And I know you're really involved in this.
Thinking about Re-Imagining today,
what are your thoughts about,
what does it mean to Re-Imagine today?
As we're passing it on, what does it mean?
-: I don't know.
And in some ways that's the exciting piece about it,
is not knowing.
And part of it is that I've been,
I meant the president of our denomination
is very much into the whole millennial thing,
and the church 3.0.
We've talked about, again,
being more diverse and younger.
And the millennialists, and Black Lives Matter,
and all these pieces that are out there somehow.
How do we fit into that?
How do we...
How do we let happen what needs to happen?
How do we encourage what needs to happen, to happen?
When we don't know what it looks like.
We don't know what it means.
I don't, and I've read books.
I'm doing a variety of things
but I don't know what church 3.0 is going to look like.
-: So what can we do?
What are we doing to try to make it happen?
-: Well I think part of it is
hoping to get some younger people on board.
-: Right.
-: The webpage is going to make a big difference.
The work we're doing with seminaries,
where there are hopefully some of these millennialists
who are going to seminary and graduating.
Who will be part of whatever is going to be taking place
20 or 30 years ago,
and again what we need to do
is build relationships with 'em.
We have to build the relationships with them
and we have to be able to say to them,
"We're not trying to get you to create what we did.
"We don't want you to recreate what we did.
"We want to be midwives to whatever may be next,
"and we're here for you.
"But not to tell you what it needs to be."
But we have to get those relationships built first.
-: Right.
-: And just as we built relationships
among ourselves when we put together the 1993 event,
and each of the ones that followed.
I thing the 2018, 25th anniversary piece
will make a difference.
And it's set here where we are.
-: Yes.
-: So, there can be a tangible handing off.
Psychological, emotional, tangible handing off.
And see what happens going into the future.
They will be more diverse than we are,
they will have altogether different thoughts than we have.
They won't necessarily trust institutions.
I know they don't believe in universal truth,
which I think is exciting, personally.
So that's what I see that needs to happen.
But again it's the relationships,
and we have to figure out how to do that.
-: Mhmm, mhmm.
I have one last practical question.
You mentioned the website.
Do you have ideas about what to include in it?
Who would benefit from it?
How to get it out there?
Any ideas about the website and how to do it?
-: Well, (laughs),
I think it has to have links to our partners in all of this,
including the new one that you just identified.
-: Christian Feminism Today.
-: Yup, yup.
-: Mhmm.
-: I think it needs to have documents,
or at least where they are.
I think if people can,
is it possible for people to actually hear
what Dolores Williams said?
-: Yeah, yeah.
-: I think those need to be there
from the beginning.
-: Right.
-: I think ways to make connections,
ways to be involved,
ways to contact us, ways...
I'm limited (laughs).
(both women laugh)
-: This all sounds good Mary Kay (laughs).
-: I use websites,
and I've had people in churches create one for a church,
but I've not...
-: Yeah.
It's one of those things,
you know a good one when you see it.
-: Yes, yup.
Mhmm.
-: So, I'm so glad you're doing it.
It just will make all the difference in the world.
You can't be anything in this world anymore
without a website.
-: Yeah, it's true.
-: Yeah.
Is there anything we haven't discussed
that you would like to say?
Anything that's on your heart,
or anything that we've missed that's important to you?
-: No, I think you've pulled out more
than I even thought.
(both women laugh)
-: Well, it was a wonderful conversation.
Thank you so much Mary Kay,
and thank you for all the work you're doing
to keep this goin'.
-: Well thank you for all you're doin'
to keep it goin'.
-: Thank you.
-: We're all in this together!
-: We are, we are.
Relationships right?
-: That's right.
-: Exactly, still important.