Robert Carroll: But yeah, I was interested in talking more about your family and since 1950 and also about your business. And I realized we hadn't talked about your children at all yet. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about your children when they were growing up. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Okay. Well I got married in 1941. I said '41, might've been '42. I married my childhood sweetheart. We met, she had an aunt that lived on the same street that I lived in, north of Virginia. And she lived in Washington, at Washington DC at the time. And she visited aunt and that's where I met her, cause I knew there aren't very well and I met her during that time. I met her earlier. We were teenagers. In fact, she was preparing to in a couple years go to nursing school. About the same time as that I went to, maybe a couple of years earlier, but I had gone to, after we met, prior to the time that I went to Hampton Institute to go to school. So we had a few years of knowing each other, but she went to the nursing school at Piedmont Sanatorium, which was under the University of Virginia. The nursing part was under the university. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Let me see, this wasn't the University of Virginia. It was one of the universities in Richmond, I believe that this nursing school was attached to that university. And during the time that I went, I think I went to school first in Hampton and she later years, so later she went to this Piedmont Sanatorium which had the nursing school that was attached to the university and that's where she graduated. And then she went to work in the Piedmont, not the Piedmont, but the Sanatorium in Staten Island. And my brother had to go there as a patient at the same time that she was working there. So he knew her previous years too, my brother John and I. And when I visited New York, he told me about her being there and I want to visit around Christmas time. I visited at while she was working there. And as time passed, I can't remember, but I got married that June or June after that. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: But we got married shortly after that and I said 1941. And then she moved here then, and we raised a family and we lost our first child who was a girl. She had birth, and I tell the story to my oldest son sometime, the doctor advise that we have another child. And I guess he thinks that, well if she had been sick I would not be here, you think but he didn't wish that she was sick, but he was glad to be here. So we had two children, two boys or two and— 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: The oldest son, he was in a group of five students, African American students, that went to Duke University. Two of them are from Durham, both of them had been, the other girl was Miss Mitchell, Mary Mitchell, and my son and Nathaniel White Junior. They had gone to school at the Burton Elementary School, the Whitted Junior High, and Hillside High School. And during the time that they were seniors, the advisors and the principal, evidently they had had some word from Duke University that they were interested in integrating the undergraduate school, but they already had graduate students. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: So they selected five students and three other students graduated, did two from Durham and one other one. I had one of the other students I think at one point was serving on the board of trustee, I believe yeah. Out of that group of five students, excuse me, been a lot written about that. And I think they had a tenth anniversary celebration. And during the time they graduated somebody said that they had a bomb scare, but nothing really happened. Somebody put the word out or something like that. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Those sir, I think it was either three or four, I believe three or graduate on time and in their schedule time and four years and everything. But well, I don't think they had any, maybe had some incidents but nothing very unusual. And my son is, the other son, Joseph went to Florida A&M because they had, they taught printing trade at Florida A&M, so that's where he went. He graduated there in four years and he was two years behind the oldest son. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: And he came to work with us in the printing business and stayed until the employees, he sold the business to the employees in '83 and they had this fire in '85, so he stayed there. He spent his career there, and he was in the best in the preparation department, did the camera work, made up the pages, and did the graphics that went along with getting the work ready for to be printed. Oh yeah, both of them went to the neighborhood school which was Burton School. We lived near Burton School. I think I said earlier they went to Burton, Whitted, and Hillside. 

Robert Carroll: Were all this schools segregated at that time? 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: At that time they were, yeah, they were, wait a minute I believe at one point though. Yeah, they started integrating the schools and they had a number of White students at Hillside. I don't think they were there at first. Maybe it was during the time that they were there, because I remember us talking about either going to Durham High, which was being integrated or either going to Hillside. And Hillside was very popular school in the Black neighborhood. So they might have already been in there, and then most of the integrations started. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: And you might run across the name Floyd McKissick when you're talking about black progress, he was a leader in the NAACP and one of the youth leaders love Ben Rough and John Evans and a number of other people. So, but they chose to stay at Hillside and graduated from Hillside. My oldest son was, I started say it was disappointed that he didn't go to Hampton cause, but I think he was, I don't think he was disappointed really, but I think he raised a question that we had been talking about going to Hampton, my school. But I felt like it was, that he was type of person that could accept a challenge and would not be hurt by anything that might come up. I mean hurt to the extent that he would, this is college education and all. So he did go and as I said earlier, did graduate. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Now he did a number of other things too. He helped to rebuild Hayti after the expressway, they called it then, but they call it a freeway. I believe it's freeway that's called, after they built the freeway and destroyed some of the business area and some of Hayti that some people had to move out for other locations. And he formed the Hayti Development Corporation, which is still in existence, and they laid groundwork for building a shopping center, Heritage Square on Federal Street and Lake Lakewood, Lakewood Avenue. And then they also built Phoenix Square on Federal Street. And they both still in existence. 

Robert Carroll: I remember you spoke very highly of the schools you went to in Norfolk, Virginia, your elementary school and high school. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Oh yeah. 

Robert Carroll: And I wonder, obviously those schools then were segregated. How did you feel as a parent when the schools were being integrated and then when your son went to Duke, which was primarily White students at the time, how did you feel? Were you afraid that might affect their education? 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Oh no. Well, you think it's a possibility that if the opposition would create situations that make it difficult for him, but that's life. And my thinking was that a challenge like that would be good for him, make him a stronger person. And then there was a need to create better opportunities. And I don't just say that Duke was a better school than some of the Black schools. I think, but we had already talked about Hampton, I think he would've gotten a good education, that's good, good education. But there was a need to accept the challenge to make the future better. And I didn't have any problem with doing that. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: I had done a lot of work in the Business Chain Organization, and in the Political Organization Durham Committee on Negro Affairs. I was a precinct chairman and I always, and still am, interested in equal opportunity. And I'm a little bit disturbed by the fact that it takes so long to do things. And when they set up barriers, for example, that Plessy versus Ferguson, I noticed they were discussing that down in Central, not to long in 18—, was it 1896? 1898 was during that time. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: That determined, that was a suit and transportation, but it spread into everything. We used to have a luncheon that we used to talk about things and one of the fellows, men, one our senior citizens who was active in that was JC Scarborough Senior who was the head of a film. He has still, it's just, he talked a lot about, he was living during the time after the Civil War. He talked a lot about a period in there, right after Civil War, that they had representatives, Black representatives in there, and there's a certain amount of freedom. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: And I've always been involved about the fact that there's somebody that's been in slavery 250 years, and didn't fight a war of freedom. Then they come up with laws and things to take away that freedom and then it lasts for many years. It's just like the '54 decision, we might have mentioned that earlier. The Brown versus Board of Education. And you think about it, that people still not, and that says that segregated schools were not equal. That they should be open schools, be open, but you still have people by, in Durham for example, they talk about diversity and bringing the races together and give everybody equal opportunity education. And then it's a good idea to go to school, just get to know each other, but not have a deep feeling about being a superior person. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: And I think some people, if they could, they'd go, they would instead of going forward together, they would go back to what, 1896 or 1898, whatever year that was and they argue about affirmative action. I think if you had the privileges of, if everybody had an equal opportunity, you wouldn't need an affirmative action. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: You need, everybody could go for themselves in terms of progress and knowledge, employment and he's never better country for it. But he still, even in election or even in things that we try to do, you got this imaginary difference and that everybody shouldn't be just saying, you still have see people seeking advantage over others and just seem to think that that's the way we want it to be. That it's so foolish. It also adds to people doing my thinking in a manner that looked at Waco, Texas, Oklahoma City and all, how did somebody get up in the morning and bomb a building and kill so many people. I don't know what they're trying to prove. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: But even in spite of years of learning progress and training and all, we still seeking artificial barriers as if somehow or another it was better back when. But we ought to all be working together to try to make it possible for everybody to reach a level of achievement based on what you put into the situation, how much you work at, how much training and education and all you get. Not these artificial barriers. 

Robert Carroll: You mentioned that people, laws that people impose to try to bring us back to conditions in like 1898 Plessy versus Ferguson. Did you and your business partners, how did loss like that affect the way you ran your business? 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Well, I guess, but the system was set up that people, we didn't have a lot of said White citizens that really came into our neighborhood. Well I said this that, well, we were concentrating on giving our community the best that we could give in graphic arts. We did fine print, so we really kind of stayed busy just serving our community. And we printed school papers. We published a book on how to publish a school paper, we had a young person, Harris Dawson, H.T. Dawson, who was teaching down at Central and he wrote a book on how to publish a school newspaper. And we printed that and we had papers in, let me see, Henderson, Goldberg, several cities other than Durham, we had here it goes, we had Hillside and we made it. So we print newspapers here, the junior high and the high school paper in Oxford, and as I mentioned, Goldberg, several others. So we stayed busy serving our own community. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: So we were welcome to business person, business come to us, but Durham was very unique in a way because it has outstanding Black businesses and this all kind of Mutual Life Insurance Company at one time was the largest black business in the world I think. He might have run across some state and somewhere that booked you, Washington was very impressed when he came to Durham. He called Paris Street, Black Wall Street. They had a Savings and Home, the [indistinct 00:24:50) Farmers Bank, and the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company all in one block. They spread out a little bit that North Carolina Mutual go to Chapel Hill Street and Mutual commute to Savings Bank that used to be the Future Savings in loan. They moved over to on Chapel Hill Street, that's downtown right next to the post office. Yeah, two doors down from the post office. 

Robert Carroll: What was it about Durham that made it, so many businesses, successful here? 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Well I think it was they had some outstanding leaders here and then I think they recruited well. They brought people in who were interested in joining in on what was being done. And they started, what is now North Carolina Central University, was a National Religious Training School and Chautauqua. Doctor Shepard was a founder, and he was a graduate of Shaw University. Now Shaw University was in, it's in Raleigh, and it had a lot of, made a lot of contribution to the education and training and inspiring and still in that same kind of situation that journalism. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: I don't think you'd find a city in the country as small as them is, as much as they have, that the Mutual Community Savings Bank has a bank in Greensboro and the Mechanics and Farmers Bank has a bank in Raleigh and Winston Salem and Charlotte. And this city is smaller than each one of those cities, and they're still maintaining those businesses in other cities. And I think that with that basis and it builds up accounts for that type of progress. 

Robert Carroll: You mentioned that you were active in the Business Chain. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Yeah. 

Robert Carroll: What kind of activities did that group focus on? 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Well, they focus on having seminars, training, workshop, retreats, and solving problems, working together, getting to know each other, and all of that contribute. Coming in with the spirit already here, you join in with it, and then you do what business people should do, serve the community, help make the community better, work with the young people, help improve them, help inspire them, and it grows on the basis that it set. 

Robert Carroll: Was the Business Chain involved in any politics or was it? 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Well, I think some of the same people in the chain would be belonged to the political group, but it didn't in itself sponsor political activities. Some of the same people in both groups. But in terms of the activities, one group concentrated on business activities, the other one concentrated on political activities. 

Robert Carroll: What kind of political activities was that, the other group in Boston? 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Oh the Durham Committee on Affairs of Black People? Well they encourage people to register to vote, and when voting time come they show the informed, the people, that election is coming up and they conduct interview sessions with candidates to see what they have to offer. And make a decision on who they want to endorse, and notify people who getting ready to vote other than people that they have endorsed. And they have reasonable good success in that. And that's what good citizens do, that's right. 

Robert Carroll: Do you remember any notable successes that you felt like this group achieved? The political group? Were there any issues in particular? 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Well, to go back a distance in terms of the schools, for example, they started out for equal schools. Same equipment, same courses, and good administrators and teachers, and then they had an accident, they had a suit. The first suit was they wanted see that separate situation was logged back when this group was organized in the thirties. And then they went to court to sue for make separate schools equal on the same all over town. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: And then they came up, I don't know whether this might have been after the '54 decision or maybe during the time that same time, they sued to say that all students could go to all schools. And then after that time they had White students to come down to Hillside that, for example, in other schools, and then Black students went to Durham High. And seemed like the interesting thing to me was that they deserted Durham High, for example, and it sort of seemed like it went down, because people went out into the counter school. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: And then there was a suit, that's something similar to that Brown versus Education, said that separate can never be equal, you have to bring them together. And that's what the law is now, but people are trying to get around it anyway they can. You know some people, rather than go to a mixed school and have an opportunity to learn what other people are like, they would rather go to a private school or something like that. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: Which is, I guess, that's their privilege if they want to do that. But that '54 decision said separate could never be equal. And I think, cause I'm not historian or examiner I don't know what the ratio is now, what it is in other places. But they were talking about diversity, bringing the students together and some people have a problem with that. But you say that the Brown versus Board of Education said that separate could not be equal then the lawyers that the people who are out there working against it, they are committing an unlawful act to me. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: I think it would be a lot better if we spend more time trying to understand each other. And I think I'm kind of interested in people finding a better way to solve their problems than by the number of body bags you end up with. Look at the people over there and I coach, they say that's a religious wall there in England where the Irish and the English is still fighting. You mean all these years and years? 

Robert Carroll: 500 years. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: How is it? That's a whole lot of generations. And how come they have to still do that? And I saw a little sketch on the TV, the kids would have these automatic weapons over in Africa. I mean they were no play guns, they were real, the real stuff, and the kid, little kid three feet tall sitting out there shooting. Something's wrong somewhere. And that gets into thousands of people, we ought to be able to do better than that. I'm telling you, I'd hate to be in a situation like that myself, if my kids were loading up automatic weapons and going out and shooting. I just think, I don't know what it would take, cause I guess my time is about out, but well it's not going to be as long as it has been but I like to see people work on that. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: I think that's why my, Jimmy Carter, he's built out building houses. Habitat for Humanity, and then I'm surprised that they didn't continue to use him more in peace settlement. He seemed to be able to settle things. And we need more people like that. And it just doesn't make any sense. Just like I was talking about that situation over in England, or anywhere but—I was born before World War I and it goes, I was just a young child and I know, I remember the song "Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" and then it's World War II. 

Nathaniel White, Sr.: But Hitler came along. I think he felt that the Germans been mistreated in World War I and he was going sell it, and look at the people that died. And other wars since that time, the United Nation was formed, to help solved some of those situations. And they have done some, maybe they should strengthen it and improve it, make it better. But don't make it a situation where it takes killing people to sell things. You need to take a different route. I'll leave that up to you. 

Robert Carroll: Let me turn this over here.