Paul Ortiz: Okay. Mrs. Quinn, you were talking about the baseball leagues and that the baseball leagues for kids were a major activity. Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. During the spring and summer. Paul Ortiz: Would there be other types of activities for the kids, say during the winter months, that would be quite popular during those years? Hersey Copeland Quinn: There were Boy Scouts. Bettie Barret Quinn: Girl Scouts. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And Girl Scouts. I'd say Boy Scouts because we had mainly boys, at that time anyway. Bettie Barret Quinn: I worked with the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts. I was not a leader, but I volunteered. Paul Ortiz: How about civic organizations during those years, say during the '50s? Were you involved in any— Well, you said, Mrs. Quinn, that you were involved in, were you in a sorority or a— ? Okay. Bettie Barret Quinn: Nurses' sorority. Paul Ortiz: Nurses' sorority. Bettie Barret Quinn: I was a member of the Order of the Eastern Star and several other organization that's auxiliary from the Masonic body and the Elks Club. That's why you heard me say that the organizations donated materials for these students too because we would contact [indistinct 00:02:12]. Paul Ortiz: So Mr. Quinn, you were involved in the Masons here? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. Paul Ortiz: What was that—? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Masons, Shriners, Elks. Paul Ortiz: Were those common organizations to belong to for Black people in this area? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. Yeah. Paul Ortiz: So pretty thriving organization, the Masons? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. More so then, I would say, then now because I guess one thing that made it be more thriving in was because we were segregated and didn't have the opportunities to participate in some of the activities that we participate in now. So it appears to me that those organizations thrived a little better then than they are now because there's so many other activities that we can participate in now. Paul Ortiz: Did you begin during this time with any kinds of political activities, voting, registering to vote perhaps? Bettie Barret Quinn: I'm one of those that was caught in the voting problems here in Macon County. I had to go to court in order to become a registered voter in Macon County, Alabama during the 19— That was '60s, right? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. That Judge Johnson you were before, wasn't it? Didn't you go before Judge Johnson [indistinct 00:04:16] Yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: I had to appear before Judge Johnson in Montgomery and Opelika at the federal courthouses. Paul Ortiz: So initially you tried to register to vote at the county courthouse here? Bettie Barret Quinn: And had problems with getting registered to vote. So then they sent— Who was the man down from Washington? I can't think of his name. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Castleblanc or something like that. Bettie Barret Quinn: Anyway, someone came out and interviewed us. There was a group of us and then we had to go to court. Paul Ortiz: What was your experience like when you tried to register to vote here? Bettie Barret Quinn: My experience and observations was that they did not want us to become registered voters and they placed barriers in to try to keep as many as they could from getting out because when you would go in, they would want you to copy the constitution. And I saw no reason why that was necessary, other than keeping another person from getting in. And I picked it up. This is what happened. So I would just scratch a little bit of it down and give it to them and get up and come out. See, I caught them. When you pass it to them to copy and give it to them, they would not do anything but put it in the trashcan. And that was to keep— And get a group of us, so many in one day to become a registered voter. Paul Ortiz: They were trying to slow down the— Bettie Barret Quinn: The process. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Mm-hmm. Bettie Barret Quinn: Because I left and got up and got dressed and left there 6 o'clock in the morning to go down and be among the first ones to be there waiting to get in. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, they'd have long lines then if you were trying to get in, trying to vote. I mean, trying to register. Now when I registered, I didn't have any problem registering to vote. I didn't have to copy the constitution, anything. And of course, that was before she attempted to register. What happened, this was shortly after I came out of service worked at the VA, and someone there, I remember his name was McDonald, told me about going down to register to get votes. Said, "Quinn, why don't you to go down and register to vote?" He say, "You a veteran." And at that time, they had to pay poll tax. I don't think veterans had to pay poll tax. Bettie Barret Quinn: Veterans don't have to. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Veterans wouldn't have to pay poll tax. So I went down, registered. I didn't have any problem. I just filled out some forms. I don't even remember what was on the form now. I filled it out. Later on they sent my certificate. So I didn't have any problem registering to vote. But when she tried to register, well, this was really shortly after I came out of service— Paul Ortiz: [indistinct 00:07:45] Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, yeah. So I guess they were getting too many Black applicants. So they tried to devise some way to slow down the process. So they start having them to copy the constitution and things like that in order to delay, to slow down the procedure. Bettie Barret Quinn: Because I remember when I was going in, I saw them putting somebody else's in the trash can. And when I came out, I passed the word on to the folks, that's what was happening, as opposed to the [indistinct 00:08:25] and come on out. Paul Ortiz: Now, this is really interesting because I've heard a similar story by other people here that where men would register shortly after they left service and women would register a little later and then actually have far more problems trying to register. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Yeah. That's what happened, I know in my case, because I didn't have any problems getting registered. Of course, that was shortly after I came out of service and before there were an influx of Blacks trying to get registered. Bettie Barret Quinn: I guess the female veterans didn't have any problem either, did they? Hersey Copeland Quinn: No. Probably didn't. Bettie Barret Quinn: [indistinct 00:09:24] recall. Hersey Copeland Quinn: I think the main thing was after so many Blacks were trying to become registered, I think that's what happened. They did devise something to slow the process down. Paul Ortiz: Well, were you thinking about voting and registering when you were in the service? Was that something you began to—? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, yes. Yes. As a matter of fact, that's when I really thought about voting and became conscious about voting because my parents didn't vote when I was growing up and never said anything about voting or anything. But when I was in service, they were having some kind of election, might have been for president. I don't know if it was for president or what. Paul Ortiz: [indistinct 00:10:24] Hersey Copeland Quinn: But anyway, yeah, when I was in service. And at that time, servicemen could vote, I guess it must have been what you call an absentee ballot, but it was some kind of form you could fill out and send in to vote for the person in your state, whoever, whatever it was. I don't remember exactly, not the details, but I do remember that form and that process. Paul Ortiz: At that time, that was for registered voters, so that would've been mainly— You were watching, now were Black troops voting? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. They were segregated among Black troops. This must have been— I don't know whether it was for state election or national election, but I do remember while I was in service, they passed out forms that veterans could use to vote. And of course, you would mark the ballot and mail it in somewhere. I don't remember exactly where it was sent now. Paul Ortiz: Did you talk about voting and politics in your outfit in the Army? Was that one of the things you may have discussed? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Very little. It was mentioned, but very little. Now near the end of my military service, there began to be more talk about voting and things like that. Paul Ortiz: What would you say was the source of that and the origins [indistinct 00:12:30] this? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I don't know really. It's sort of hard for me to determine what the source or origin was. At that time, to me, it was just something that the military wanted to do. But I didn't think much about the origin of it. Paul Ortiz: Now by the time both of you have moved here, the Tuskegee Civic Association was active. Did you hear about their activities or at some point become involved in those activities? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, yeah. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I joined the Tuskegee Civic Association and participated in the activities. Paul Ortiz: What year did you join? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Mmm, I have no idea now. Bettie Barret Quinn: [indistinct 00:13:56]. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, it was, uh— Paul Ortiz: Like late '40s? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Late '40s, I would say. Yeah. Paul Ortiz: You also joined, Mrs. Quinn? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes, it was in the '50s. Paul Ortiz: '50s? Bettie Barret Quinn: Over in the '50s when I joined. Paul Ortiz: Now what would be a typical Civic Association activity or meeting? What would happen? Bettie Barret Quinn: There would be discussion and plans of what we could do in order to overcome a lot of the discrimination and things, activities that was going on here. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And back during that time, one of the main things that the Civic Association was emphasizing was voter registration. As a matter of fact, I believe I'm correct in saying that the Tuskegee Civic Association was responsible for these voter registration cases that she mentioned when she had to go to testify in Opelika and Montgomery. Bettie Barret Quinn: At one time they, they gerrymandered Tuskegee, all the registered voters, except I think it was about 10—? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: —was left out of the— Paul Ortiz: So both of you actually began your involvement with the Civic Association before the boycott started? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh yeah, yeah. Way before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Long before the boycott. Paul Ortiz: How many people would go to those meetings during those years? And what kinds of occupations were people involved in it? Was there—? Bettie Barret Quinn: It was all walks of life. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, all walks of life. Bettie Barret Quinn: The people who was participating. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And the attendance depended upon what was going on and the interests of the people. Now during voter registration, we had good attendance. During and leading up to the boycott, we had good attendance. If something was going on, we always expect good attendance. And of course, as things began to level off, attendance sort of dropped off. Paul Ortiz: Do you remember the discussions surrounding the boycott? I mean, that was quite a big decision, quite a big step. Was there a lot of debate around that? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I wouldn't say it was a lot of debate. I would say that at least 90% of the people, if not a 100%, were in favor of it. Very few people, to my knowledge, were not in favor of the boycott. Paul Ortiz: And was that decision made at an actual meeting, the TCA meeting, to engage in the boycott? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I believe it was. I can't say definitely that it was because I wasn't at a meeting where the decision was made. But I believe I would be safe in saying that the decision was made at Tuskegee Civic Association meeting because, at that time, the Tuskegee Civic Association was the main leader in things like that. Of course, people looked to the Tuskegee Civic Association for guidance in civil right matters. Paul Ortiz: Do you know if there's any kind of overlap between the activities that were happening here and, say, in Montgomery? Would people come from Montgomery and people involved in— Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes, on certain occasions especially. Because I remember distinctly when King came over here for something, Martin Luther King. It was something at the courthouse too. Bettie Barret Quinn: Boycott started in Montgomery in 1950. Hersey Copeland Quinn: We were in court for something and King came over. What was King over here for? He was over here to testify for something. I don't remember the particular incident now, but there was some involvement between Tuskegee Civic Association with people in Montgomery, because I distinctly remember King coming over here, and I for sure was down there that same day for something. I don't recall what it was. Paul Ortiz: So you had nearly unanimous support for the boycott. There had been this gerrymandering issue that Black people were basically being stopped from voting. So it sounds like there were a lot of things happening here during the '50s. It sounds like— Hersey Copeland Quinn: It was. It was. Paul Ortiz: Were there other experiences in terms of segregation, other events, other than voting and other kinds of discrimination that you saw or experienced or heard about, that particularly enraged Black people in Tuskegee during those years? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Well, as I mentioned earlier I think, the swimming pools and other things in Tuskegee were segregated. Our children couldn't swim in the public swimming pool downtown. All our children had to go to the university, to that swimming pool and swim. We didn't have any baseball fields or anything for them to play baseball or any activities like that, except at the university and the VA hospital, of course. We'd go out there for activities. In fact, the VA had a baseball team. But as far as using the public facilities downtown, we couldn't use them. Couldn't use the swimming pool. Couldn't play ball at the baseball field. Bettie Barret Quinn: So you'd go to the VA because that was called a part of activity for— Hersey Copeland Quinn: For the community. Bettie Barret Quinn: —patients. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, for patients, yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: See, they could come out and watch it and that's why we could use that. Paul Ortiz: But there were baseball park that White children could use? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: Blacks— Hersey Copeland Quinn: Always to my knowledge, that was a baseball park that White children could use. Paul Ortiz: Now does that park still exist? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes, it's still there. Paul Ortiz: All right. What is the name of that park? Bettie Barret Quinn: It's Henderson now. It's named Henderson. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: It's downtown. Paul Ortiz: But it had a different name before? Bettie Barret Quinn: It was what, City? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I think it was City Park, I think. Yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: It was City Park. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: I guess, I always have difficulty asking the, including the kind of questions— What have been the biggest changes that each of you have seen throughout your life, in terms of race relations? And then, also, if you could think of a particular philosophy or saying or even religious scripture that's kept you going or that's inspired you through the years, what would be that? Bettie Barret Quinn: You first. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, one thing, I came from a pretty religious background. My parents were very religious. And whenever the going got tough, rough, they always felt and taught us to fall back on our religious background, pray for things to get better. And that if you pray and believe hard enough in what you praying for or asking for or trying to do, that it would come to reality. So I think that's the main thing that kept me going. And what I would always fall back on when things got tough. Bettie Barret Quinn: I guess another thing that helped with having children in school— Well, even before they reached school age, we devoted a lot of our time to the PTAs here in this county because we worked with the PTA right in back of us at that school. We had no children there. And we worked with the PTA at the elementary school that was on the campus when we had a son at the beginning. And we worked with all of the PTA. Both of us were PTA presidents. And my husband has helped organize what they called the Macon County PTA— Hersey Copeland Quinn: PTA Council. Bettie Barret Quinn: —Council. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. And that consisted of all of the PTAs in the county. Bettie Barret Quinn: In the county. Hersey Copeland Quinn: I organized that organization. I don't remember what year it was. Bettie Barret Quinn: In the late '50s or early '60s because you and Dilly was the one— Dillis started it, didn't he? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Right right. Bettie Barret Quinn: Before he left. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And what we would do periodically, all of the PTAs in the county would come together to discuss our things that were common among all of us to help try to resolve some of our problems. Paul Ortiz: Those are things like maybe transportation, materials? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, yes, those some of things, yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: [indistinct 00:27:16] that schools would need. Paul Ortiz: Oh, I see. Bettie Barret Quinn: And to contact the principals to see what we could do. Paul Ortiz: Oh, okay. Bettie Barret Quinn: What was needed. And working with the PTAs, what he had referenced a while ago, when I cut him off about visiting the schools, I used to volunteer my days off from my job, working with the public health nurses, going out in the rural areas to work with the children, to give the injections and everything and visit those who, in the homes, parents and all that, needed assistance. This was my volunteer service that I've rendered ever since I been in Macon County, because that was my idea first, after graduating from nursing, was to go into public health nursing. But I changed my mind later on. I am the one that organized— I saw a need for children being examined and everything before they started school. I'm the one that helped organize that at the Lewis Adams School here. Got the doctors and everything to volunteer service to examine the children, pre-school examination. Paul Ortiz: Oh, I see. So you were working on this program in the '50s? Bettie Barret Quinn: Say that. Paul Ortiz: You were working on this program in the '50s? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yeah, '50s, '60s, '70s. Paul Ortiz: That's quite an important program. Bettie Barret Quinn: Yeah. And I will always remember that where we had the first pre-school testing. There was one child, he must have been born in somewhere '54 or '56. But when he was pre-school, we found out that he was a diabetic. And that had given me a lot of thrill to know that I was interested in starting this so we could find out if there were things wrong with sharing before they started school, because his parents did not know that he was a diabetic. That's an Adams boy that's a minister. Paul Ortiz: So you would've been working with people like— Was L.M. Randolph the principal at Lewis Adams? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Right. Bettie Barret Quinn: He's the one that we worked together to get this stuff done. To get the pre-school. And it was started at the school, the first pre-school examination. Paul Ortiz: So that was a full kind of medical examination? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yeah, for the children. Paul Ortiz: I see. Bettie Barret Quinn: You see, what happened. Now, the doctors at VA and John Andrew, I solicited their help in volunteering to do this work. Because, see, this was all volunteer work when it first started. Paul Ortiz: I talked to Mr. Randolph last week. Bettie Barret Quinn: Oh, you did? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was pre PTA president up there under Mr. Randolph. Bettie Barret Quinn: And we had no children going to school up there at the time. We just get out and go up there to start going to that PTA meeting, and we would even go down to Shorter to volunteer for— Paul Ortiz: Now, oh, I promise this will be my last question. Bettie Barret Quinn: Okay. Paul Ortiz: Now, during that time, I think that I discussed this with Mr. Randolph and also with— Hersey Copeland Quinn: Mr. Hooden? Paul Ortiz: —Young. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, Young. Paul Ortiz: Who had been a principal at the high school— Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: —in the '40s and '50s. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. K.B. Young. Paul Ortiz: K.B. Young. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Yeah. Paul Ortiz: And they mentioned that their relationship with their superiors was less than ideal, talking about the superintendent, who was— Hersey Copeland Quinn: I want to say Danley, but it wasn't Danley. Paul Ortiz: Davis? Davies? Bettie Barret Quinn: I know that superintendent, but I can't recall his name now. Paul Ortiz: I guess what I'm trying to get at then, it would be, were you ever able to get them to support this very important program that you were working on? Did they express interest in it? Bettie Barret Quinn: What, the superintendent? Paul Ortiz: Yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: I don't think so. I never discussed it with them. I worked through the principal. Paul Ortiz: Okay. Hersey Copeland Quinn: No, I never even talked with the superintendent back then, during that time. As a matter of fact, I barely knew him. My main contact and work was with and through the principal and teachers at the various schools. The superintendent during that time, to me, as far as I was concerned, was some [indistinct 00:33:10] and farfetched. Even when I was doing my practice teaching, I never even came in contact with the superintendent. I don't even remember who was the superintendent at that time. Hersey Copeland Quinn: At that time, I knew who was superintendent. But if you don't have much contact with somebody, after a period of time, their name sort of get away from you. Now people's name like Mr. Randolph or Mr. Young and people like that, I'll always remember them and remember their names because I had a lot of contact with them. And it's something that'll just stick with me. But the superintendent, I couldn't tell you his name if I had to. Bettie Barret Quinn: Was it Light? Was it Light, superintendent? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I don't know. I might wouldn't even recognize if you call his name. He was just that farfetched from me and my activities. Paul Ortiz: So these are programs that the White school officials— Well, obviously they hadn't initiated them themselves. These are programs that you as parents— Hersey Copeland Quinn: Right. That's right. Paul Ortiz: —Black parents— Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: —PTA [indistinct 00:34:31]. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, that's right. Mm-hmm.