Estelle Graham: Heritage and I think about that because she taught that. I can picture that family home there and the church right on the corner of Mint and Hill Street. When Isabelle White was being built, we, in the little off district, went to that little area school because we couldn't go to my school, that was torn down. That was an elementary for all. Even my sisters, the older ones that went to elementary, on my street, the little old elementary school and then that second one made history too. Estelle Graham: And while Isabelle White was then built, we didn't have to migrate like we did and they were working real hard. I don't like to use them, knowing that the family, just about all the Moorehead family dead, I don't like to use them too much into when I'm talking, but they were working very, very hard for us to get into D.H. Hill and it had to be private and all, it had to be this but there were— Sonya Ramsey: What type of—? Was that an elementary? Estelle Graham: Elementary school. It was like a few blocks down there. They'd have a few teachers that were willing to tutor us. Sonya Ramsey: Was that a White school? Estelle Graham: Yeah, it was segregated. All of that was during the segregated time, but I didn't feel comfortable. Even when we were asked, "Mama—" I said, "I don't think I would want to go". Sonya Ramsey: That went bad? Estelle Graham: Because it was that I just didn't feel comfortable pulling away. It was bad enough to live where you live and then to be pulling away. I was just too much into not wanting to pull away from my friends, my school, my school friends and church and all, because even to go through being driven from where you live to way to Morgan Street and then being picked up, I just didn't need that. Estelle Graham: I just wasn't too comfortable with that, as a young girl. It was no good feeling, the only way you could get to school was either walk and drive or ride, well I don't want to say drive, but knowing that the facility was there for you to get there and the facility to come back, I just didn't want it. Speaker 4: How you doing, all? Sonya Ramsey: How are you? Speaker 4: Good. Estelle Graham: I just didn't want that because, and I'm going to have to admit to this, talking with you and knowing it's on tape, the worst thing with segregation is to not be comfortable with your own peers, your own race. To be sad that, in the name that you were called, I have to admit to this, White folks' niggas, the name that you would be called with your mom and daddy working hard. Two incomes coming in on Thursdays when they would get paid of the little checks every Thursday. Estelle Graham: And they were more than able to do for us because they didn't have to pay rent at all to be able to wear better clothing, to be able to wear clothes that were really given or shared to you that they didn't have to buy. You would like, and I'll have to admit there were some teachers that they would see wearing your Sunday clothes, but they were clothes that we could wear because they were our clothes. They were going in a whole GAP, they were clothes mostly given to us. When school was started, we would get skirts and a sweater or something thicker. Sonya Ramsey: Did you have a favorite by any of your teachers? Or keep talking about any of the teachers that you had. Estelle Graham: I'm going to tell you, I'm glad you asked me that. At elementary school, I had a teacher and like today I don't talk too plain because my tongue had to be clipped. Lisp be talking. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: My tongue was tied, tied tongue and I was seven— Six or seven years before they realized they had to cut it. They hit me two or three times with a yard stick because I could not, and like today, I won't pronounce it for you because I can't say it today. I could not pronounce C—O—W. Sonya Ramsey: But that wasn't your fault though. Estelle Graham: No, but she referred to me, she said— She was so aggravated with me and I said, "C—O—W" like today, I say cow, I said, "Cow" and she referred to me trying to talk like those White children. She pronounced it properly but I couldn't say it properly and she thought I was being rude. Estelle Graham: She really did, and she was a sweet teacher but she just couldn't— And she just did not understand why I did not say C-O-W properly and I could read things but for some reason I kept saying, "Cow". She got so angry with me. She was correct to try to teach me properly. She was English and she just got so upset with me for having that attitude. The teachers were beautiful teachers. I don't think of a teacher I ever had that I didn't like. And even I could understand why she felt like that I was being rude and not doing it properly. Plus this, we had PTA, just like me telling you about that, that was told to the parent. It was a good relationship between the parent and the school, and it was just like, "Now, I'm going to tell you one more time and I don't want to have to tell your mama or your dad." Estelle Graham: And when you would go to school and this and that, and they would have that little meeting you had to go in, they would straighten you out at home. My mother and dad were not whipping people, they taught. I never shall forget in high school at Isabella, I mean, the second one, the high school, Mr. Grigsby, the best principal anywhere that could ever be. His family's home is right up the street here. His two sons live up here, right up the street here. Mr. Grigsby did not play, you had to act right in school. He was one of the best principals anybody could have ever been under, and he had pride about his school and his student, but he didn't go for fighting, he didn't go for bringing knives to school and things that happened. Now, he did not play because they had detention every day. It was embarrassing to sit in detention in high school. Sonya Ramsey: I wanted to go back and ask you one more question about your elementary. What was—? Estelle Graham: Bless your heart. Sonya Ramsey: What did you and your friends do? Would your friends ever tease you about something? Estelle Graham: No, because it was strange, not really strange, but school and church in the family situation, we were all bonded because I've lost a lot of friends that we went to school together in the first grade, and our parents, they were like church, they were all extended families. I think that would be a good way to put it, and you just didn't do too much into that kid and tease, and you take Clyde Brown, he's deceased last year, and his mother and father, just like my mother and father, in the church, we were in the same Sunday schools together, go to picnics together. Our social gathering was mostly school and church. Sonya Ramsey: Did the White children you played with as a child, did they ever question why you went to a different school? Estelle Graham: No, it was just that. Things like that, you didn't talk, when you were at play you were at play. This? Hilda, what about when you got married? Hilda: I married a White. Sonya Ramsey: Oh my. Hilda: One day we were out playing, all of us playing in the yard. My mom and daddy, it was just a yard where you get out there and play, they had pretty flowers and all. It was a big surrounding where you didn't have to worry about cars or anything. So, we would play games. We just played school in this way. So this particular— They would play being married. I can't call this boy's name if I had to, and I liked that because we played. Boys and girls played together. I do remember a Valentine, the first Valentine I got was from one of the little White friends, a nice little decent— Threw the rock on the door and you heard the noise out there, "Valentine!" We went out and there was a Valentine at— Sonya Ramsey: That was the usual practice that they did? Estelle Graham: Yeah. Sonya Ramsey: Oh, okay. Estelle Graham: And we would get Christmas presents for each other, we'd change presents. It was just beautiful. It was nice. So this, and my mama, I thought when she looked out, she says, "What in the world going on?" Just like she spoke up then. I can't call the young boy's name if I had to right now. So, me and Hilda are getting married, we were the little bridesmaids, the little flower girls, we picked some about. Speaker 4: You're thinking of Charles Porter. Estelle Graham: Oh, Charles Porter. Oh, they were nice. Charles, he was a type. He and his sister. Her name was Gaither. They would be at our house more than home, Gaither and Charles Porter, they were so nice. Speaker 4: [indistinct 00:09:23] in about three hours. Estelle Graham: What bill? Speaker 4: This right here. Estelle Graham: Oh, that's for old [indistinct 00:09:26]'s funeral. Speaker 4: I know him. Estelle Graham: And another thing, this is interesting, when I mentioned the plan and all and gave it to Porter— She's deceased. Anytime anybody would miss their children, they would call and say, "[indistinct 00:09:46] is so—and—so there?" Or whatever, they would know they were at our house, I'll put it down that way. But we had so much fun and we played, and I'm trying to think, one child at Easter time that was a Catholic, I can't call his name right today, and we were there at Easter, we had jelly beans around. Estelle Graham: I'm sure mama had already dyed our eggs or whatever, and he had some jelly beans and was eating jelly beans and finally he just went into convulsions. He was so hurt and so upset and he started. We didn't know what had happened, so mama said, "Well, what's wrong with him?" What was his name? John I believe. Now, I might be wrong, and mama called his mother and she came down. But what happened, he was supposed to give up sweets at a lengthened time and he forgot, it frightened us. Estelle Graham: It was like the punishment was going to come on him. That's when we started learning about the Catholic church, and his mother was real nice and she explained to us, and when he would come to play with us and he had a sister, I think they were on top of us, and she would explain to us about the Catholic church and their beliefs and things like that. And he played with us for years. We tried to figure out what had happened. Somebody said, "Mama, John is choked" but after he came to himself, after he had put that cane in his mouth, he froze. Estelle Graham: Ooh, it was an awfully frightening experience. And there was a little Catholic church up the street from us, that's all we knew about the Catholic ways of things. It was to me, like today, it was one of the most beautiful experiences you could ever have to really know things firsthand and when you can really say that you did not go through that hatred, you didn't go through that fear and you didn't go through that — Estelle Graham: You push yourself to do what you knew and what you were taught to, and that was to go to school and get along with people and just go on about your business. There were people on Hill Street that were very nice. There was lady there that used to sew for us. There was another lady there that was a good— Mrs. Berlese, looked like her husband works at the Salvation Army. They were the people that told mama about a man that was said things to— If we would go out through the two houses, we'd leave our house, we would go out between those two houses, head Hill Street and go up fine and go up. Estelle Graham: They were the one that told Mom and Dad how this, a person, a man, made a comment about us or whatever and he'd let Mom and Daddy know about it, and then after that, we put a fence up because it wasn't that we knew for sure, but I and mama thought it was so nice for Mr. Leach his name was, to say [indistinct 00:12:48] could be sitting on the porch and when the girls go through there, this person, this guy, he made some comments about— One day he was going to take advantage of somebody that come through that. One of us. Estelle Graham: And Mom and Daddy thought it was so nice for them to say that, and then after that, they put this fence up. It was a fence, and we didn't go that way. When we were into the age and we were being— Things said. They learned, my Mom and Emily, learned a lot of things. Mom and Daddy, they wasn't too much to go to the Moorehead's for certain things. They knew what was best for us, and then from that we had to stop going through that. We had to go all the way back up this street down that street and then Tryon Street. Sonya Ramsey: Did I ask you this? What were the holidays like in your time? Estelle Graham: Oh, fine. Oh, your food, it was beautiful. I'm going have to be honest with you. Hilda, if you're going to the store, I need something. Excuse me. Hilda: Well, let me know because I'm getting ready. Estelle Graham: Well, go on then. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: That's okay. Don't stop. Hilda: Let me know now, I'm getting ready to go. Estelle Graham: No, I said, "Well, go on." Come on. Oh, look honey. We would have our fruit. Our tree would always be on Christmas Eve, that would be the tree. You go to bed, the tree was up. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: Okay. Christmas was like, I don't know, I can't really explain it. We always got everything we wanted for Christmas. Our Christmas was fine. We got presents. Now this, when I grew into age, I didn't like doing this but this is what we would do. After Mom and Dad, we'd have our Christmas month, they would be off now for the holiday, and we'd have our Christmas and we'd have the presents and naturally the fruits would be like a bush of fruit and the nuts, we had everything that you would want. But when we would dress for Christmas day, whether it was a weekday or Sunday, whatever, she would say, she said, "Now Estelle, I know you don't like to do this. I know you growing up and you don't really like to do this, but Mrs. Moorehead wants to see you." Estelle Graham: Then you would go up there to see for her and she would give us individual gifts and it would always be a nice little gift and money. Your own little monies. I really appreciate my mother and daddy knowing. Every week, every Sunday, after church and into the evening, we would get our money for the week. Sonya Ramsey: You had an allowance. Estelle Graham: We had a little allowance and it wasn't that much but it's what you got for the week. It wouldn't be the same thing either. Sonya Ramsey: And you had eight—? How many brothers and sisters did you have? Estelle Graham: Well, at the time that, let's see the older ones out of four— I was the older of the four of us, which would be her, Ernestine and her, that would be the brother we had. I have a retarded sister that's not well that's in the nursing home now, and that was just two years ago that she's been there, but she was home, kept at home and looked after with family and friends and doctors and whatever. But she had a fever that caused her to have brain damage, at six years old, she wasn't born that way and she was looked after at home. At the nurse home, it killed me to say they've been smarter than any of her. She was a self—learning person at home and she learned to do her little things. We all helped. Estelle Graham: Getting back to that, Christmas was real, real nice and very nice but it was where as nice as your Christmas was, we were taught, in the word that my mother and daddy used and you think about it today, you don't go to school and brag about what you got for Christmas. It was a sharing thing mostly at home, but when you went to school or when you went out or even if somebody come to your house, you didn't go through that, "I got this, I got that, I got this and that." They did not allow that. And mama said just make it nice and just say, "Well, I had a nice Christmas." Sometimes you would say, "Well, what did you get for Christmas?" You'd have to write it down. You would write you had a nice Christmas. A lot of times we had neighborhood gifts, we'd have nice things and she just didn't believe in you just telling how much material things you got for Christmas. They didn't like that. Sonya Ramsey: Why was that? Did they—? Estelle Graham: It was just the values that they taught that material things were not that important, and Momma would often say things. That a lot of these things, you got your mommy and dad, now we're not able to get these nice things for you but I don't want you to be just so saying, "I got too many. I got three sweaters, I got two skirts." A lot of people say, "Ella, what would you like for me to give the children for Christmas?" Most of the family, people in the family, they worked for and she would say, "Well, they want this or that" and then sometimes you'd get two sweaters, two skirts plus what they got. She didn't want you to be a person to say how much you got for Christmas. She would always say the most important thing you can get for Christmas is friends. Friends. They were good people. I think about them so much. Just proud. Sonya Ramsey: I wanted to go on to your high school, could you talk some about your high school experience? Estelle Graham: My high school was fine. I got a book right here from Second Ward High School, I'm with the alumni association. High school was just a new beginning for me. It was like I had my freedom in high school. My freedom of expression, where you were not just that limited. I was into, and I thank God that I started my dating early— Sonya Ramsey: Why is that? Estelle Graham: Because I was taught, even Mama was saying, "You know, you're getting in age—" She let it be known that when you get aged old enough to date, don't. And I refused and I viewed, which would be the older girls were that way too, you couldn't have a whole lot of different persons coming visiting. She was strict about that. She said, "When you old enough to have one boyfriend you can date" but she didn't care too much for that. Estelle Graham: Now, the church friends that would come, that was different. That was like the family was knowing and all of that. But it was instilling us, the two of us, we went to school, high school together, to be real careful, boys just come and come. First place, she said, "I don't want it" and the second place, "It wouldn't look nice to have in and out, in and out boys in and out" because they were working and she said, "Now, one person. Weekend dating." Estelle Graham: You didn't date when school was going on unless it was something where you would go but you couldn't have boys in and out the house, and I really appreciate that because that was, even though we lived where we lived, that was by them working, they couldn't say that they were up there working and we were in the house acting up with boys in and out. Estelle Graham: And each boy that I ever had as a friend really loved my mother and father because Daddy and Momma would make ice cream. Mostly Sunday was dating time. When you go to the socials, we called it, go to a dance. Sonya Ramsey: What were the socials? Estelle Graham: Oh, every Friday night. The second one you had a dance. Sonya Ramsey: Oh, okay. Estelle Graham: The piccolo—like dancing mostly, and then maybe a girl that was there would do something one week or the Patol boys another week or the teachers would do something. Sonya Ramsey: The Patol boys? Estelle Graham: But you know what I love? Was that Friday night dance at Second Ward High School at the auditorium. Sonya Ramsey: What kind of music did they play? Estelle Graham: Honey, they had that piccolo music. On some occasions now, I got to remember because there were, we had Flat Tie Mason, he was a member of my church, he had a band. Lou Curry had a band and there's one more. Sonya Ramsey: Lou Curry? Estelle Graham: Uh—huh, Flat Tie Mason. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: Who was this fella that used to play the piano? He lived over there in Greenville. Ooh, he played the piano. I can't call his name, but I know it was Flat Tie, Lou Curry, and seeing that we had three bands— Ooh, it'll come to me, whoever, but I know it was Lou Curry and Flat Tie Mason. He was member of my church, little flat tie. Boy, I tell you, and I mean, this is why I was saying, when you have socials and things, the bands, we were like piccolos were out. Sonya Ramsey: [indistinct 00:21:36] a jukebox? What's a—? Estelle Graham: Yeah, a [indistinct 00:21:36]. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: But the music that made you really want to go places were when the bands would be. It's going to be three bands, but I can't think but one, Flat Tie that they would play for certain dances. Out here at Sunset Park down not too far from here. Down on the lower end here on that stale street, they would have a swing session. Sonya Ramsey: What's that? Estelle Graham: Okay, you would go on Monday nights, Friday nights. I think we paid a fee of maybe 25 cents, maybe less than that, maybe some nights you would get in free, and every teenager in Charlotte, which would represent the schools, like Second Ward in West Charlotte up here and this used to be the high school before the big high school. And you would go and you would socialize and I like that too, you couldn't go nowhere, hardly anyone would come to a dance without a date. Sonya Ramsey: Oh, okay. Estelle Graham: You would have a date. That was protection. Even I think about young women now, how they don't seem to want to be in a one on one relationship with a young man, I'm talking about in my family, I'm not talking about anything else, but your protection was your one date. You would go past it. A whole lot of things that's happened now with young people, that boyfriend would take you and you socialize with other people and all and your boyfriend would bring you back with a 10 cent cab there. You didn't pay no more, Victory Cab I think was them, and then I think 25 cent cab. A yellow cab used to be 25 cents in Charlotte, and you could just ride, if the young people didn't have the cars, you ride the cab or the bus. We used to go to— What's this street up here? I think a ballroom up here. What's that street now? Lord have mercy. Estelle Graham: Whoever they had, big dances like when they had the Mayday dance and this and that. We went to the ballroom for the big dances with a band. Yeah, the socializing was fine and the movies, the grand theater here. We didn't come out here to the grand theater except on Sundays. We would be dressed coming in the building, sniff students where we knew how to be well dressed. When you come out in this area on a Sunday and recognize the neighborhood and all. And then the grand theater and the support theater, we had three theaters. Social life was fun in Charlotte. Sonya Ramsey: You said the swing sets, they were like a big dance? Estelle Graham: It was like what we used to see on TV a long time ago, Dick Clark would come on. Sonya Ramsey: Oh, like—? Estelle Graham: It was just everybody would go and you'd do the popular dances, whatever it was and I mean, it was fun. Sonya Ramsey: What were some of the popular dances? Estelle Graham: Oh Lord, what is some of those things? Oh, this little thing they called trucking, for one thing. And what's this? Little Suzie Q they called that. What's this other little old dance we used to do? Oh, most of these little things came from New York. The Big Apple. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: That was almost a little bit like the slide today when I think about the Big Apple, because I remember we wore big apple skirts. Sonya Ramsey: What was a big apple skirt? Estelle Graham: It was wide, very wide. It's like the [indistinct 00:25:06]. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: It was a wide skirt and you're dancing in your little skirts that you wore, and the dances, the fellas, it wasn't too much contact dancing, it was more like you turning in your thing and all and you change your partners. It was fun. You know what you call it? Very social. You'd be dancing with somebody, somebody tap you on your shoulder and, well, my boyfriend said, "Man, you know better than that." This Is How for a song or something like that, Stardust and things like that, they would do it for Devil Men. But it was fun, what's some of those dances? The Big Gaff, now that was fun, that was similar to me of The Electric Slide kind of. Sonya Ramsey: Oh okay. Estelle Graham: It was a similar type. Oh Lord, [indistinct 00:25:53]. Oh, those records way back out. But I'll tell you, my favorite record that still is sold today was Stardust. That was it, and then the Blue Moon, they had good music, man. Sonya Ramsey: Did you ever listen to the blues or anything like that? Estelle Graham: I wasn't too much into blue. I don't know why. I was more— I don't know. Sonya Ramsey: As a teenager, were there any neighborhoods where you couldn't go to or things like that? Estelle Graham: Well, being teenagers it was just those home failures. You weigh things out, "What? Am I going to slip and do this and know I'm going be punished in a way where I don't want to be punished?" My mother and dad, they were not too much into whipping. They would just punish you like, "Well, you can't go. Well, you know you can't" or, "Do you know so—and—so having a party? Having this and that?" "Well, you know you were late coming in." I have people laughing about it. I went to First Ward one time and Mama had said, "Every time you go over there, now I don't want y'all to come home before dark. You better be home before dark." Estelle Graham: We were over First Ward, on old Seventh Street and I'm trying to think, there was a cafe over there. What was that man's name? I believe that man's name was Charlie or Moe, he had the best music on his piccolo and Hilda and I, and whoever else, we went over there and it was getting dark and we tried to skate back. Now, here's what was so funny, we laugh about that today, [indistinct 00:27:28]. Most of my little associations just left so early and we laughed about it through the years and when we got on Trade Street and we saw that time was slipping up. Now, you skating home. Sonya Ramsey: Oh you skated home? Estelle Graham: You skating home. You supposed to be there before dark. Sonya Ramsey: Oh, wait. Hold on. Just put the microphone there and through that now. Estelle Graham: Okay, there. You were so into obeying your parents so you wouldn't be punished so you couldn't go back. But we went there, we had so much fun, we wanted to go back. Getting home before dark, the dark coming and I'm going to tell you, this is the funniest thing we laugh about today. Estelle Graham: We take our skates off to be sure and for some reason and we laugh, we said, "Wonder why did you think you could make it better walking than skating back before dark?" So I made the statement, I said, "Well, I was just thinking two ways" because Mama said, "I want y'all to be back because I don't want you skating before dark." I was trying to do two ways to obey, if we get home at dark, we wouldn't be skating and if we got home before dark we could say, and I had made up, I said, "Well, you said for us to be home but don't want us skating in the dark, that's why we took the skates off, but the main thing, I was like most young people, I wanted to go back so bad I had the answers. That I don't go skating in the dark. Estelle Graham: We were up in teens. Now, you get from over there before dark, maybe it was a skating party or whatever, and then I don't want you skating back over in this area in the dark or before dark. And so that dark was coming, took those skates off so we could go back but I'm trying to say we always knew we had to do what we had to do to keep from being punished, not physical punished but to not be able to go back where you were. And we would come out here at Sunset Park, we had to be home before 11 or at 11, you left at 10 and you obeyed so you could be in with the in crew. Estelle Graham: And that's what you did. You just did what you had to do, you obeyed and you had to obey in school. You had to obey in the neighborhood. You hear a lot of people right now talking about, "Your mother and father were not the only people that looked after you during your times coming up." I have a Sunday School Superintendent, Mrs. Shipman. Mrs. Name is Shipman's mother, I can't call her name right now. Mrs. Name Hern. Her mother, Mrs. Hern was like a mother to me. I respected her like I did my mother in Sunday school. Estelle Graham: She would say, "Now ask if, so—and—so—" if we would be out and be talking loud and laughing loud, she would speak to us, if we were doing a little too much twisting and turning in church, she would get on us after church in a proper manner. And she was sweet to say, "I'm going to talk to your parents" and I'm noticing she was the one that would instill into the parent to, since we were dating, to allow the boyfriends to visit church. Estelle Graham: And I'd visit my boyfriend's church, he was a member of Ebernezer, that's what you did and I thought that was real nice. You would go to your boyfriend's church. Naturally, you had to meet the parents and he would come to your church, he would change about most of the evening things, BYPU and things like that. Bible school, we always went to Ebernezer Bible School because they had the biggest one at that time. And we went to Bible school at Ebernezer and you changed it around. You could visit friends' churches and it was more visiting churches than homes. You would visit church, school and home. Sonya Ramsey: How did you meet your boyfriend? Estelle Graham: In school. High school, and the strangest thing about it was just like being in school and going to the football games. He was the football player and sociable with the other young men. Two of them were— Let's see, how many church members did we have at that time in Second Ward? Three? Three, let's see, the Barrett Boys and Frank Bowman. I almost was so ashamed in church, about three seconds ago we were laughing and talking about old times. He was here for Easter and then he came back talking about old times. It was just like in the company, it wasn't love affair, it was more or less the time that you had dates there. It was mostly for escorts to take you certain places where the boys and girls would be on picnics and all, and it was just that type of beginning and then into the later years, it seemed that my last year in school and his year into going into the army is when we got real serious. Estelle Graham: We were just serious where we felt like we would have a long life together, but my two years at Bible schools and then his years in the Army, it was just that we just would not. We were just like— Sonya Ramsey: Apart? Estelle Graham: Yeah. We had a social life in school but we didn't have what you call just love life. You understand that? Sonya Ramsey: What other activities did you—? Estelle Graham: And he was so nice. He was a nice person. Sonya Ramsey: What other activities did you participate exactly in? Estelle Graham: In the chorus Sonya Ramsey: Mm—hmm. Estelle Graham: Okay, the debating team. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: You can almost tell, and I did pretty good with my grades. It seemed to me that I almost borderlined the A, I just couldn't just do that A, but I could hit the B honor roll. It seemed that I worked in the library a while. I was so interested, like I said, in school that I did the advanced home economics course my senior year at Second Ward, and my class was the first class to graduate from the 12th grade. Sonya Ramsey: Oh. Estelle Graham: In 1942. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. What was a [indistinct 00:33:11]? Estelle Graham: A cheerleader? I believe it or not— Sonya Ramsey: Yeah, a cheerleader. Estelle Graham: Yeah, because we went to Greensboro with our team and they brought the [indistinct 00:33:23] back. We went to Greensboro two or three times with the music, with the choir. We brought back an award one year, maybe two. I mean, the year that I was in the chorus we got an award. We brought it back from Greensboro. That was real nice, Mr. Diamond. Sonya Ramsey: Diamond? Estelle Graham: Yeah. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: Edna Diamond's father. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Estelle Graham: Mrs. Beckwith and Mrs. Kara Robinson, they were the music instructors. I mean, we had a chorus, we were singing at them. Sonya Ramsey: What kind of songs did you perform? Estelle Graham: We would go with the spirituals and we would just come on down. This song, what I'm thinking about, what's that song? When I'm Calling You. Sonya Ramsey: Oh. Estelle Graham: We had a music concert down at Second Ward and we went with the spirituals and we came on down with the folks and things of the sort, and this last song that we sang is When I'm Calling You, I can't call the name of that song right now. Everybody, I believe I was in the 10th grade going into the 11th grade and when the singing and everything was over, this friend of mine that I mentioned, not calling his name, he's deceased now, he came and everybody was saying that was nice for him. I think my sister at the time or somebody, Mom and Dad were there that night, and he came, while the chorus was sitting down through here, and he said, "I'm going to tell you the truth" and said, "Y'all really did sing that song." Estelle Graham: And I being a woman, like we women are, that's when I just bubble because I thought that was so nice for him to come. The boys and young men, they were more withdrawn. He was right there, he said, "I'm going to tell you two, say you really did sing that song." And what's the name of that song, honey? Sonya Ramsey: When I'm Calling You? Estelle Graham: Yeah, it's a little love song, and that's when all and everybody and all that, I was more a little old. I think I was a year and some months older than he was, but that's when my heart start really bubbling. That was the first communication between two people where I had been a young lady that I had that little love because I had that little song there. And then, it was even in him in the army and me in college, we were really getting serious. Very serious about our relationship, and my mother and father liked him because he was such a very, very gentleman in our relationship because he knew he couldn't stay late and he knew I couldn't stay out late. That's why they respected him as a young man, being my friend and he was a protector too. Estelle Graham: I think younger people like today, if they had more steady boyfriends, I'll put it like that, the younger group of people, it'll happen to kind of stay on course. Young men were just different. They would just talk different, you just had to respect that young lady. That's all it was to it. No and ifs and buts about it. Sonya Ramsey: What would happen if a girl did get pregnant during that time? Estelle Graham: Well, we had two girls in our class that became pregnant. The saddest thing about the whole situation with the two young ladies, they were the two ladies that you wouldn't dream that would have heard it with them because they didn't tell, they didn't mention it. It was just that it started being noticeable almost at the time of graduation, and this particular young lady, bless her heart, I think about her today, she's sweet today and she's living today, is how one day she broke down in the English class and all of us were upset. She was aware of this particular day, and she broke down and she just went into hysteria. Estelle Graham: And I really appreciate the teacher, and he was a male teacher, Mr. Levi. He knew the other teachers knew and whatever. I mean, they assumed is what I'm saying and then by her appearance. And then, when they called the nurse and they took her out the room, it was so sad that she was so hysterical, and I never shall forget that as long as I live. It was a day where everybody just said, "So—and—so, blah, blah blah. What's wrong with you? You got to be pregnant" and she always said, "No." It was sad that she said no. Sonya Ramsey: Did she think she would be thrown out of school? Estelle Graham: It was just like she just didn't want it to be, she couldn't accept it, and the boyfriend was nice to her. I might've have it on the table but I even said, "Yeah I graduated" but I shouldn't have that on the table. Anyway— Sonya Ramsey: Well, you didn't mention names. Estelle Graham: Yeah, that's right, even with my name. But that was the saddest experience I went through in high school to know that my friend— It was that you respected people, you would notice people, but you just did not talk too much about situations like that, and they're the only two and then this other young lady, she wasn't able to march because it seemed that it was almost time for her and she couldn't, even with the robe on. Most girls with the parents, if it would happen they would just drop out of school. Estelle Graham: And the worst thing about it, I don't think they came back or they had the program that they have now for young people now. It was just drop out. I'm trying to think did they accept them back? But you were just more into things and the teachers and all would kind of talk to you, mostly. More than your parents. More than your parents but they were like friendly talk. I would have a lot of teachers that really, to be honest, even with this tape, I had a male teacher that was telling me, even when my grades were dropping off a little bit, that I was a little too serious, if I go to a football game and things and I come to school the next day, I would not be real me. I was in that cheerleading and I was in that football. I didn't cheer for the team. Estelle Graham: He would tell me, he said, "You know what, man? I know one thing" he said, "You need to start cheering for the team." He could see in me, being a man, what was not good for me because I just had this fat— I was just head over. It didn't bother my grace or anything, but I was just all the time peeping down the hall and all. They had to let me know that, "You better roll. You in bad shape girl." But I learned from that experience because he knew him as a young man and being a popular person that what he knew I learned later because he was a decent person, but he wasn't like a one—on—one relationship with me, and I had to learn that, but none of my girlfriends could tell me, but once the teacher and the people kind of let me know, "Chill out now. You're a little too serious." Estelle Graham: My old sister had died, she would tell me that. She said, "Estelle, you won't go?" And I just wouldn't go to a place. You know what? It's a strange thing and I have been around much younger people, and I always like this little saying that says, "Best to have loved and lost to have never loved at all." But that, when you had it, that love is scary because see, even when I married, I was married 23 years and my husband was such a decent sweet man and he would often kid me and say, "You know, Estelle—" he said, "That's one thing—" he said, "I know when I first met you, you were getting over something but I will say this, I'm glad you got over it" he said, "But I don't believe you'll ever love anybody the way you love your boyfriend" and I mentioned that to people today. It was just a different thing. Estelle Graham: I think that's why I settled down. I know I been in love. I didn't go. And the old saying, "If you love it, let it go, it'll come back to you" but I let go but mine didn't come back that way. My life, I tell you, it's been nice to me and would you believe right now I'm going to the doctor, 72 years old with arthritis? Sonya Ramsey: I don't know when you'll be back but [indistinct 00:42:04]. Estelle Graham: Yeah, that's what the doctor cared me about. Sonya Ramsey: I wanted to go back and ask you how were the cheerleaders selected and accepted? Estelle Graham: Well, I'll tell you the first thing, anything you could be into, whether we had this context where you could speak and do that, I wasn't too well at that, your grades, you had to be A/B to be in anything because your grades were utmost, and if you could any extra curriculum that you did in school, you couldn't do it unless you had the grades, if you could do your work and do this outside thing. So that was more, and I think that's the fair thing for anything, that's what they did, your grades. Sonya Ramsey: Did you have to audition to be in the chorus? Estelle Graham: Yeah. Yeah, we had a good music teacher. Sonya Ramsey: Who was that? Were you nervous about that at all? Estelle Graham: Not really. Knowing that she sang in Sunday school, we had a good choir at church, and knowing that I was alto, we had some good singers. This young lady died a few months back, Julia Dolby, she was a good singer. She sang all over Charlotte everywhere. She was our soprano. We had twins and all. But by me being an alto, a contralto, alto in that range, it wasn't too bad, but even when I went to Barber—Scotia, I seen the same scale. But your talents were inborn or you learn those talents, but the worst thing about anything is you just had to qualify but your grades had to be first. Now, if you had good grades plus qualifying? Grades qualify. You couldn't be in something because you wanted to, you had to have those grades first. Now that was the summer case. Hilda: I was always getting [indistinct 00:43:56]. Estelle Graham: Hot out there? Hilda: And bad. Estelle Graham: You did? Hilda: Nothing but [indistinct 00:44:05]. Sonya Ramsey: Okay— Estelle Graham: Bless your heart, honey. Great. Well, now what? You finished? Sonya Ramsey: No, there's more to go. Estelle Graham: Oh, let me stop. I'm running my mouth. Hell, I'm talking about the first part of the thing. Sonya Ramsey: I need to start back. Estelle Graham: Yeah, bless your heart. Sonya Ramsey: Finished the half part. Well, I wanted to ask you, did your teachers ever play favorites on people with skin,? Different skin shades and things like that? Estelle Graham: No, because at Second Ward, and I don't think of a teacher— You really, even doing your work, doing your lessons, doing your good grades or whatever, they still helped the ones that were slow. I will say that, because they would have a study hall and you helped each other and I can't say that from Second Ward at all. I can't and I will not say that. Sonya Ramsey: You don't think the light skinned people were treated any differently? Estelle Graham: No, I never experienced that. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. I guess we can move on then, why did you decide to go to Barber—Scotia? Estelle Graham: Well, the first thing is we got the little scholarship. Two of us went to college together. Sonya Ramsey: Oh, okay. Estelle Graham: And then with my sister teaching, she paid for one. One, she paid one bill. And then my mom and dad was able to pay for the other bill. So it would be financial reasons for the first thing and then I wanted to go to an all girls school, that was really recommended to me, the first two years. At that time, it was just a junior college and just to get the feel of college and to go to two, it was that we were accepted there and we didn't, that I know of, I know I didn't put in for any other place but Barbara—Scotia, and it was recommended from— Let's see, I'm trying to think. Estelle Graham: There's so many people from Charlotte there that spoke well at that time I think Mrs. Lively Davis, she was married to Baxter then. The sisters they are here, and it was just recommended. A nice college, small scale, two people in college with the income of the parent. It was more affordable. That would be the most honest thing to say for two in college. It was more affordable, and it was near home. And I loved that school, and it was a little Christian school. Sonya Ramsey: What made you—? Why did you go? Estelle Graham: It was almost like home.