Ruby Osborn: That I practically lived in The Bahamas. And I even got papers to move there because I was so interested in that culture, different kind of people. I made a difference in terms of the women. For years and years and years, people, White females went to islands like The Bahamas or any of the Virgin Islands to have fantasy, to live fantasies, whatever they were. Most of them were sexual fantasies with men. And they went there because people could get hurt if they carried out those fantasies here. So they went other places. I've been there and seen it. I've seen women pay men to have sexual favors. From New York, from Philadelphia, from New Jersey, from all over the country. The Bahamian Islands are predominantly Black, okay? Not necessarily educated people. Excuse me. 

Ruby Osborn: I forget where I was. That interruption. I was talking about the Bahamian people and how their culture is so different and how people came there for certain reasons. And I used to go there and just watch the people. I would lie down at the pool and just watch the comings and goings of people, which also made me different because I didn't go there for the same reasons. And so people watch you. And so I had the Bahamian women come up to me and say, "Why do you come here all the time? Obviously it's not for the same reason that other people come, so why do you come?" And I said, "Well, why do other people come?" Because they assumed I knew. And I'm saying, "Don't assume I know. If you think something, you tell me what you're assuming." 

Ruby Osborn: So I had a lady say to me, "Well, you know that these women come here for sexual favors and our husbands are screwing around on us." And I thought, "Well, isn't this something for you to say, it's your husband." (coughs) Excuse me. "You ought to be able to take care of that." But I didn't say that. I just listened and I said, "Well, I'm just not interested in that side." I said, "It's a wonderful place to come. I love to be in the sun and it's close. It's not so far away that I have to travel a long way. And I like places that I can go and not travel for 11 and 12 hours." And as the years went on, they liked me, the women, they hated all women who came there. But I got to be very close to the Bahamian women. 

Ruby Osborn: And the Bahamian men told me, a group of them, that they were going to stop me from coming to that island because I was changing their women, the way their women thought, their thinking process. Now, I've made a difference because I changed their women thought process. And all I did was talk to them. And all I said was, "You don't have to put up with this kind of stuff." You don't, because they don't. And so when they talked about it, they talked in terms of, I don't have to live like this or I don't have to—And the men would say, "Nobody told you that but Ruby." And they would say, "I don't care who you think told me, I'm not putting up with it anymore." So things started to change for them. And talking about highly respected and see, I didn't run around with their men. 

Ruby Osborn: That's a Bahamian man right there on that picture. He's married, he has three children. He dated a girl from New York who got pregnant by him and had a son for him that he comes to New York and sees. He used to come to Boston. I shopped for him. I used to buy clothes for men as a business. I traveled and just chose clothes. I was a buyer and he was one of my customers. And so he told me a lot about himself. But that's a Bahamian man. And we were at a thing one night and he said, "Come on Ruby, and let's take a picture." And when I saw him, when I went down there another time, he gave me this big picture and I'm like, "This looks like a family picture. I don't want no picture like this." And he laughed and I go, "I can't even put that up at my house." 

Ruby Osborn: So now that I'm not married and everything, I pull that picture out and this guy that I see occasionally, he's like, "You can't put that picture up." And I'm like, "But I'm not married to you, and this picture is going up. It's a good picture of me. And so I want that picture up in my house." I was at least 48 years old then and I look like I'm about 30. So I like that picture. "So it's going up in my house," I said, "I don't care whether you like it or not, the picture is up. Okay?" Because it's a good picture. It has nothing to do with this man. He was one of my customers. 

Ruby Osborn: And then it was so funny because they were having some kind of show like Goombay Festival or something, and they take pictures at these things. You get all dressed up and people take pictures. And so he was walking in the hallway, he worked at this hotel, and he said, "Ruby, come on, take a picture with me." And I just went on and took the picture and this is what it came out to be. I didn't even know what the picture was going to be like because I don't even remember the different poses, because it meant nothing to me. It was more important to him than it was to me. 

Ruby Osborn: So I make a difference, I believe, everywhere I go. I tried to anyway. I've tried here, but— 

Andrea Smith: It's hard? 

Ruby Osborn: Very. Very, very, very. When I first came here, because I am a divorcee and I like to do a lot of things, I am so bored here. I try to put in as many—That's why I started working this job at Hecks because there was nothing to do. People don't do very much. So I started working and I even started a club. A club meaning a group of women who were in the same situation as I. Because there are no men our age group to meet that are single. They are very limited. Okay? It's a funny age to be in around here. So I said, maybe we can get a group of women together and we can do community things, give back something to the community. Raise money, that kind of stuff, that do scholarships. 

Ruby Osborn: So I started this club with these women. Well, let me tell you, if that wasn't a trip. Bickering, fighting, oh my God, you would not believe. It was unbelievable. So I just said, "Give these people their money back. I cannot do this with these people. This is the hardest thing I've ever tried to get together." I gave everybody their money back and even most of them I don't even talk to. They didn't want to do that. They didn't want to do it in the first place. So why did you do it? Why did you tell me that you wanted to do this when really in fact you did not? Most of them don't even get along with women, with each, other as females. Oh God, this is a place. This is quite an interesting place. 

Andrea Smith: Why— 

Ruby Osborn: And these were Black people, Black women. 

Andrea Smith: They can't get along with each other? 

Ruby Osborn: So it doesn't have anything to do with color. Prejudice doesn't, or whatever you want to refer to it as. It's anybody. It isn't color, it's anybody. They disliked each other, jealous of each other. She has a better car, she has a prettier suit. Whatever the reasons were. It's very sad. Okay? So when people talk about that White woman did such and such or that White man, I just look at them because you can't get along with your own people, so how can you talk about somebody else? You need to learn to get along. You need to get along right at home before you go out abroad or out someplace else trying to fix something. Do your own stuff first. Okay? Now that's something my parents instilled in us too. Don't go out preaching to somebody else until you are living it yourself. 

Andrea Smith: Did you see other parents teaching their kids the same thing? 

Ruby Osborn: Oh yeah. When I was growing up, it was different. We didn't talk back. We were scared. We weren't afraid of our parents as parents, but we didn't want to be spanked. They had a saying, we didn't speak unless we were spoken to. Okay? So if my mother took me with her someplace, there was no such thing ever, since I had been in this world, of me showing out nowhere, that was unheard of. 

Andrea Smith: Just speaking out? 

Ruby Osborn: You did not show out. You know how children get down on the ground and scream and yell and all that. 

Andrea Smith: Make a scene. 

Ruby Osborn: Yes. That was unheard of. Temper tantrums. There was no such thing, that didn't exist. I don't even know when that started. We didn't do that. 

Ruby Osborn: It's just different. I think we had different values and of course our parents had different beliefs. Parents today don't believe that spanking does anything. Even my daughter. It usually goes in a cycle. In other words, whatever your environment has been, that's basically how you are. Unless you just make a very positive or strong effort to change to be different from what your parents were. Okay? You got to really work hard on that because you are a product of your environment. I don't care what you say. But my daughter has tried so hard, not necessarily to change what I believe, but to be her own kind of mother. Okay? The one who says, "We talk everything out." She tells me this often. "I told the children that I'm going to start working now and there are certain things that you are going to have to do, you have to make a commitment to this too." I'm like, "Okay, did they make that commitment?" "Yes and no. One did and one didn't." 

Ruby Osborn: So it doesn't mean because you changed the way I did it with you that it's going to work better. Doesn't mean that all the time. You just changed it that's all. Doesn't mean it's going to work or it isn't going to work. You'll just have to see. "You think this is a good way, mom?" She said, "All right Tanya, you might need to spank her butt." "Well, I just don't believe in doing all that spanking." I spanked her butt. Good or bad, I spanked her butt. She didn't do it no more, I can tell you that. That's all I know. As long as it was done correctly, that's all that I think is good enough. If you can talk to him and it's done, fine. But if you can't, you got to try something else. 

Ruby Osborn: But see, we got spanked, period. But you know what? I got the least number of spankings. You know why? Because I didn't like to be spanked. I didn't want to be spanked. So I did what I was supposed to do. I'm not saying I was a model child or a perfect child, but I was close to it. Now my sister next to me, talked back every day. My father could tear her tail up, and he would be the one that would have to spank her because my mother couldn't do it good enough. It would have to be my dad, because she was so terrible about talking back. She would never shut up. 

Ruby Osborn: I don't remember my father ever being real, real bad to her, but say for instance, she's talking back to him and he says, "Don't talk back to me anymore." And she keeps on talking, and he smacks her. Just When she shakes it off and gets it together again, do you know that girl is still talking? She used to tickle me. I was like, "Why doesn't she shut up?" I can never understand it. Why wouldn't you shut up. Give it up. I don't want to be hit. I never liked that. So as a result, I didn't get a lot of spankings. I just keep my mouth closed. If I can save the day for me, I'm going to save it. Okay? I don't want to be beaten up. I don't. I didn't like spankings. I hated them too. I really hated him. So I would just do what I was told, it was easier. But do you know who my father adored? 

Andrea Smith: Out of the children? 

Ruby Osborn: Uh-huh. My sister that talked back to him. To the day he died. Isn't that funny? It's funny how things happen. He adored her. I looked a lot like him. My sister looked a lot like my mother, but he adored her. He did. But it was okay because I'm not jealous. You see what I mean? I'm confident. I was very confident. And plus, there were some things that he did that I didn't like. And I told him that when I was an adult. There were things that he did to my mother that when I was a child that I did not like. And when I became an adult, I told him about those things that he did and I hoped that he would never do them to her again, while I was an adult. 

Andrea Smith: How did they relate to each other? 

Ruby Osborn: My grandmother never, ever wanted my father to marry my mother. She had chosen a woman for her son. And this lady lived in Philadelphia. And so when my dad met my mother, she was never—First of all, she was part Indian. And so Black people were prejudiced against Indians as well. And so my grandmother did not want my dad to marry my mother. She was fair-skinned, she had long hair, she sat on her hair. Very beautiful hair, very much like yours, and she was very gorgeous, but she was part Indian. She had very red, red skin. That brownish, beautiful red. Very, very high cheek bones. Very, very attractive woman. Very beautiful figure. But none of it was good enough. She was part Indian. Are you listening to me? And my grandmother was prejudice, I guess to Indians. 

Andrea Smith: And do you think that rubbed off on the way your dad treated your mom at all? 

Ruby Osborn: I don't think so. I think that Black men have always, as far as I can remember, thought that they could hit Black women, treat them any kind of way, and they would take it. They would stay. They would live with it, because they didn't have any place else to go and no one else wanted them. That's what I believe Black men always though. From way back when. Watch the movies, watch the old movies. People like the singer, Billie Holiday. Look at Billie Holiday. Look at all that kind of stuff. That's been going on a long time. It's history. It didn't just start with my dad, it started long before my dad was ever born, that kind of stuff. And it just kind of trinkled on down through the years and through the families and through people. And so what he did to my mother in my eyes, was totally unacceptable. But my mother stayed. And I can remember saying to myself, it'll never happen to me. Never. And it hasn't and it won't. I won't stay. 

Andrea Smith: Why do you think your mom stayed? 

Ruby Osborn: I think my mother stayed because she loved my father. That's why I think she stayed. Because after we were all adults and gone away from home, my father changed. I believe that when people get married, first of all, we're all so very, very different. Meaning everyone is different. There are no two people that are the same. You may be similar, you may even look similar, but you're not the same. No two people are the same. Nowhere, not even twins, they're not even the same. They may think alike, they may do a lot of things alike, but they're not the same. There is something different about each and every one of us. And given that fact when you put a man and a woman together and you are trying to live a life with all these differences, and no one has really set an example for us as to how it should be done. We've just been going along by trial and error, trying to make marriages work. We have no real pattern to go by. 

Ruby Osborn: Remember, they say that Adam and Eve were to be that pattern, but they messed up. So we don't really have a pattern to go by. So how can we even be perfect at this? There's no way. So we've just made a lot of mistakes and still making them. And because somebody did this, did it this way, then the next person that came along did it the same way and did it even worse, because they could. Not because it was right or because it was wrong, just because they could maybe. 

Ruby Osborn: So given the fact that Black men somewhere got the idea that they could treat Black women this way and nobody fought and nobody said nothing and nobody did anything. And because of the prejudice that exists in this world, who was going to protect them? Who? There was nobody. That's sad to me. 

Andrea Smith: Do you think there's more prejudice against Black women than Black men as far as other people in society sticking up for them or reinforcing their rights? 

Ruby Osborn: Against men? 

Andrea Smith: Against women. 

Ruby Osborn: Do I think there was more prejudice against women? No, I think it probably in the long run ends up to be even, just as much against one as there was against the other. They're really no different. They're both Black, and we're talking about color of skin. We're not talking about whether they can think, whether they can breathe, whether they have their own mind, whether they can do things, whether they can work, whether they can whatever. We're not even talking about that. We're talking about the color of somebody's skin. So if you have Black skin or White skin or whatever color you're talking about, what makes the two people different? I can't see how it makes a difference to me, because we're only talking about skin. We're not really talking about any differences. You know that right? 

Ruby Osborn: They have made you think that that's what it is, but it really isn't. We're talking about skin differences. Because you are what you are, you are not supposed to do that. This is what we're talking about. Okay? But over the years, people have tried to make you think that it was because John Doe couldn't do such and such thing or he was too dumb to learn or she was such a whore, or whatever. 

Andrea Smith: It was the color of their skin. 

Ruby Osborn: Sure it was. It had nothing to do with whether they could think or breathe or nothing else. The differences between people, this is my own personal belief obviously, has to do with nothing but the differences in our skin. That's all. You think I can't run a bank? 

Andrea Smith: I think you can do anything. 

Ruby Osborn: No, I don't mean you personally. I'm just saying, just because I'm Black— because my skin is dark—I'm not even Black. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? 

Andrea Smith: Mm-hmm. 

Ruby Osborn: Or do I think that you can't have a pretty baby because you are White? That's all it's about. Nothing more, nothing less. Do you think that because you are White, you are superior to me because I am Black? What is that more than skin? That's what we're talking about. Look what the Ku Klux Klan people say. We are a superior being. What are we talking about here? Skin or what? So, that's all it is, that's all it's ever been, that's all it ever will be is skin. The difference is. That's all it is. It started out being that, and it's still that. 

Andrea Smith: But in people's minds. 

Ruby Osborn: Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Exactly. 

Andrea Smith: Grown. 

Ruby Osborn: Yes, it's escalated, it's outrageous. But that's all it is. It's nothing more than that. And do you know how sad that is? It is so sad. It make you want to cry. You sit up and you watch a show on TV say, and you see this kind of stuff. And sometimes it just touch your heart, I'm telling you. To the point that you just want to cry. And not even prejudice movies I'm talking about. I'm talking about movies, period, in general, where you see acts of prejudice, not even Black against White. Prejudice, period. It is so sad. It just blows my mind. 

Ruby Osborn: I find it very difficult to believe that people can be so naive about something that is so obvious to me. There's no need for any of this. There's no real need for any of it except what you just said, in their minds. Why? I don't know why, I can't answer. I have no idea. I am just very thankful that I'm not one of those people. Everybody does something that I don't like. Everybody in the whole world. All colors do something that I don't like sometime or another, has nothing to do with skin color. People are just people and they're always going to be that. Just people. Not dogs, not cats, just people. It's true. 

Ruby Osborn: I always say to people, I am scared to death of dogs, I am scared to death of cats, I am scared to death of rats, I'm scared to death of birds, I am scared of death of ants. I am afraid of everything. And they're like, "You are crazy." I'm like, "But I am." And I really am, that's the truth. And one person said to me one day, "But what you should be afraid of, you're not afraid of." And I said, "What is that?" And they said, "People. That's who you really should be afraid of." I said, "But I'm not. That's weird, isn't it?" They said, "You're crazy. You are crazy, Ruby. You are afraid of a little ant and not afraid of people?" 

Ruby Osborn: I've thought about that many a day. That person saying that to me. Many days. That has come back to me many days. And I've thought to myself, "Maybe I should. Maybe that's who I really should be afraid of. Maybe I should reach down and pick up the ant and cuddle him and leave these people alone." But I must not have sense enough to do that. Or I must think there's some good in every single person. Obviously I do think that. I think if I didn't think that or believe that, then I'd really be lost, like most of the people are. That's why I don't do drugs. I'm going to tell you why I don't do drugs, because I don't like that feeling of being lost. To me, to do drugs would be a feeling of being lost. I think I would feel lost. 

Ruby Osborn: I heard a person talking about doing drugs the other night, and I was saying, "One time I was at a party and I have a lot of White friends. And I was at this party in Boston, at a hotel. This girlfriend of mine, she and this guy that she eventually married had this big huge party one night on New Year's Eve, and a girlfriend of mine and I went, my husband did not go. He didn't want to go. So this girlfriend and I went, she wasn't married, she was divorced. So we went to this party and we were sitting there and we were having a glass of wine and just chatting and talking to different people that we knew. And all of a sudden somebody pulled out this big wad of whatever it was, of cocaine. 

Ruby Osborn: And to this day, she teases me. She said, "Your eyes must have been the size of moons, many moons," she said, "Because your eyes got so big," she said, "And I knew immediately what you were thinking. I will not go to jail behind somebody else's shit." And that's exactly what I was thinking. Because I said to my girlfriend, I said, "Let's ride." And that's all I said. "Man, get your coat and we're getting the hell out of here." And that's what we did. Because I don't intend to go down behind somebody else's foolish mistakes. Plus, I don't like feeling crazy. I don't like that feeling. I don't want to be out of control. People seem to be out of control when they do drugs. I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to be out of control. I don't want to be out of control. I don't want to do things that I don't remember. Okay? 

Ruby Osborn: So that's kind of my scenario of explaining what I was just saying to you before, is I like to be in control of my actions, of my thoughts, of my everything. No matter what I'm doing, I want to remember that I did it. So I think it's kind of hard when you put yourself in those positions where you can't remember. I don't mind if I'm old and that comes with age. I don't have a choice. I can't help that. But this, I can't help. 

Ruby Osborn: I don't know what else to tell you except that that's just who I am. I've had a very good life actually, from even a child up until now. I don't consider even my divorces, I don't consider those as failures. I learned something from every last single one of them. My marriages. And I'm friends with all the people that I've been married to, not to the point of where I would marry them again. I don't believe in going back. And so therefore, no matter how much I love them and thought of them, I still would not go back. I think once you've come this way, you ought to keep on going because there's something else ahead and you could miss out on something. So I just don't believe in going back. But I can't think of a single thing that I've done in my life that I initiated or that I didn't even initiate, that hasn't been a learning experience for me. And in most cases, good. 

Ruby Osborn: My children have been exposed to pretty much everything. I gave them everything I had. They had the best of everything. I worked two and three jobs to make sure that in between husbands, that I wouldn't be dirt poor and that we wouldn't suffer, that they wouldn't suffer, that they never wanted for anything. You can't make up for the loss of a father. And I certainly never tried. That wasn't my intention at all. Never was my goal. I just gave what I had to give. The caring, the love, the whatever I could give. And so given all of that, they turned out to be pretty good kids. For a person who never wanted kids, because I certainly didn't want any. I always said that when I was growing up, "I'm never having any kids." But I got married, and when you get married, people expect you to have kids, especially during my growing up years. That's why you got married, so you could have some grandchildren for those grandparents to spoil. And they certainly did all that. They had all of that. 

Ruby Osborn: But I just never wanted kids. That wasn't anything in my future. I thought I'd just be, excuse me, one of those people who just live their life, and I wanted to be a career person. Travel all over. I always had travel in my agenda, always. I wanted to see and do some of everything. And believe me, I've met a lot of people and done a lot of things. I can't say I regret anything I've ever done. I really cannot. I've done some very nice things, been exposed to some very nice people and some very nice things. So I've had a pretty good life. If I were to die tomorrow and was able to come back again and tell you how I felt, I would probably say to you, "I don't regret anything I ever did and I had one of the best lives." I always say that. I say that anyway, because it's true. 

Andrea Smith: Sounds like it to me. 

Ruby Osborn: It's really true. And even hurt and pain, I'm not saying I never hurt, I'm not saying I never was in pain, I never cry, I cry all the time. I cry now. I cry anytime I feel like it. If I feel sad or hurt and sometimes I cry and I don't even know why I'm crying, and I cry freely, the tears just come. They just flow. Sometimes I holler, sometimes I scream. Sometimes I do anything I want to do that makes me feel better. 

Ruby Osborn: When my mother died, I thought I would die. I don't know, that makes me cry now. She was very special. Really, really special. And I miss her so. I do. I think that when you lose your mother, you have lost your very best friend in this whole wide world. So whatever you do, be good to your mother. I tell kids that all the time. Fathers are okay, but mothers, they're something. I tell my son all the time, and he told me the other day he was tired of hearing it. I said to him, and I say it a lot, "Your mother's your best friend." I don't understand kids who have bad relationships with their parents or their mothers, especially their mothers, I guess. And I know it's hard sometimes, but somewhere down the line, you've got to find a way to fix it, to make it right, because mothers go through a lot that kids don't even know about, that they don't even talk about. And there's no reason because it would only make you sad. 

Ruby Osborn: And it goes right back to what I said to you earlier about the differences in people. Because we are so different as human beings. Like individuals I mean. Men, women, women, women, however it is, we're just so different as individuals. No one is ever going to get along all the time. And given that fact that we can't get along all the time, be in good standings with each other all the time. There are going to be some conflicts. Sometimes they're bad conflicts. But see, husbands and wives will make up and they'll be fine. If you are married to somebody and you come to me and tell me, "Lord, he is making me sick. I hate him today, I hate him today." And I start agreeing with you, when you're not mad with him no more, you're going to say to me, "Why did you agree with me? I love my husband. Why did you say that?" You'll be mad with me. 

Ruby Osborn: You have to be ever so careful, because you see, no matter how many differences you and your husband have, I need to keep my mouth shut because you will make up with him and I'll be the villain. That's kind of a way of explaining what I mean when I say differences in people. So even though people fighting for us or whatever, they still can be special people. It's going back to my father and the way he treated my mother. He didn't do it always, but there were some periods of time that he did not treat her very nicely. And see, that's what you remember. Those are the things that you remember. So I didn't like him for that, but he was my father no matter what. And I really wasn't that sad when he died. 

Ruby Osborn: I never dreamed he would die before my mother. I thought, all the things, this is how you grow up thinking these things now. All those years I thought that he had killed my mother, basically. I thought that she would die before he did because he had killed her, because of the things that he had done. But see, that was in my mind because I'm just a kid and I see all this stuff happening to her that he had done, the mean ways, and it isn't even that he hit her, he treated her mean. Because he had this woman that he was being pressured with by his mother. And I thought, how in the world can my mother stand this? But see, she survived it, but I was the one who was in pain because I hated it. I didn't want her to have to deal with that. But it wasn't my thing, was it? No, it was hers. And she dealt with it the way she thought she should. And it worked out for her. It made me sad, but it worked out for her because that was what she wanted. 

Ruby Osborn: So you can't decide for other people either. You really can't. You must decide for yourself. I guess that's who I am too. That's why I am the way I am, because I've always made my own choices and my own decisions. If they said, "Don't move to Seattle," then I moved there because I wanted the experience. Not because they said don't, but because I said I'm going to move to Seattle because I want to live on the West Coast. I want to see what it's like to live on the West Coast. "That's 3000 and some miles away. Don't go to the West Coast." Oh yes, I'm going because I need to be able to see what that's like. 

Ruby Osborn: I don't know. I did it and I loved every minute of it, and I would do it again. The same way. I think I would probably choose my life the same way it was, but I wouldn't have any children. And the reason that I wouldn't have any children is because it's too tough. It's too tough. It was hard raising children when you don't know whether—If I knew then what I know today, then I wouldn't have any children. 

Andrea Smith: Which is what? 

Ruby Osborn: It's too tough trying to raise children. It's just very tough. Okay, here I am, I've learned that two people don't always get along together. I've learned that now. Okay? So given that factor, I wouldn't have children, just given that factor alone. Because you see, when you don't get—