WEBVTT 1 00:11.000 --> 00:50.000 June today is June 8th, 1994. My name is Felix Armfield. I'm the interviewer and I'm at The Chicken Hut down on Fairfield street in Durham, North Carolina. I'm about to interview and Miss Peggy J. Tapp, who is along with her husband, the owner of The Chicken Hut on Fairfield Street. Miss Tapp, would you just start out by just telling me a little bit about yourself and how long you've been here in Durham and just a little bit about yourself and background? 2 00:50.000 --> 00:57.000 Okay. Telling you about myself. I was born here in Durham. I've been here all my life and I doubt seriously if I'd move at this point. 3 00:57.000 --> 00:59.000 Okay, great. 4 00:59.000 --> 01:23.000 And try to start over again. I started working with The Chicken Box with Mr. Tapp when I was 16, and we have worked together since then, which has been a struggle. 5 01:23.000 --> 01:23.000 Okay. 6 01:23.000 --> 01:40.000 Very hard struggle because at that particular time there was segregation. 7 01:40.000 --> 01:47.000 Okay. What time? Can you put a time frame on that? 8 01:47.000 --> 01:47.000 This was like in 1957. 9 01:47.000 --> 01:47.000 Okay. Around 1957? 10 01:47.000 --> 01:48.000 Yes. 11 01:48.000 --> 01:56.000 Still in the late 1950s. What was it like when you say it was a struggle? What was the struggle itself all about? 12 01:56.000 --> 02:18.000 Well, the struggle was at that particular time, well, the type of people we depended on were like—which we still do, and they supported our business through the years, they followed us through the years—the low income. 13 02:18.000 --> 02:18.000 Okay. 14 02:18.000 --> 02:35.000 The poverty-stricken, the welfare. These people are the ones who really supported us. Yeah. We've had support from others, but then we even had a worse time when integration set in. 15 02:35.000 --> 02:36.000 Oh, really? 16 02:36.000 --> 02:52.000 Because at this time, we found that, I guess maybe we, as Blacks found out, we could go maybe to the hotels and the restaurants. 17 02:52.000 --> 02:53.000 Yeah. 18 02:53.000 --> 03:08.000 We could sit any place. This set us a little bit behind, because at that time we offered catering and banquet, which we had a banquet room, but then they sort of got away from that. 19 03:08.000 --> 03:08.000 Okay. 20 03:08.000 --> 03:13.000 They started like with the hotels and whatever. 21 03:13.000 --> 03:18.000 Since integration, it hurt the business? 22 03:18.000 --> 03:18.000 It did. 23 03:18.000 --> 03:18.000 What would you say is the reason? 24 03:18.000 --> 03:18.000 It was good in one sense. 25 03:18.000 --> 03:18.000 Okay. 26 03:18.000 --> 03:28.000 And bad in another, because that's when we started like going away from our Blacks. 27 03:28.000 --> 03:28.000 Okay. 28 03:28.000 --> 03:28.000 Supporting them. 29 03:28.000 --> 03:28.000 I see. You said you've been here in Durham since you were born? 30 03:28.000 --> 03:28.000 I was born here. Yes. 31 03:28.000 --> 03:28.000 When were you born here? 32 03:28.000 --> 03:40.000 1940. 33 03:40.000 --> 03:43.000 Okay. You're born in 1940. 34 03:43.000 --> 03:44.000 Mm-hmm. 35 03:44.000 --> 03:46.000 Can you tell me a little bit about your early childhood here in Durham, in the 1940s? 36 03:46.000 --> 04:16.000 Well, I can tell a lot about growing up. I came from a large family and we were a very close-knit family. We had a hard time. My parents worked very hard. We didn't have what maybe others had, but they made it comfortable the best they could. 37 04:16.000 --> 04:16.000 What type of work did your parents do? 38 04:16.000 --> 04:27.000 Well, my father worked in American Tobacco Factory and my mother was, well, she had a lot of occupations. She was a maid. 39 04:27.000 --> 04:28.000 Okay. 40 04:28.000 --> 04:38.000 She did nurse work. And then in the evenings, about six o'clock, she would go and clean up for White people. 41 04:38.000 --> 04:43.000 Okay. When you say your mother was a maid, who was she being maid for? 42 04:43.000 --> 04:45.000 For? Okay. She was for the Duke family. 43 04:45.000 --> 04:45.000 Your mother was a maid for the Duke family? 44 04:45.000 --> 04:45.000 Right. 45 04:45.000 --> 04:46.000 That's interesting. 46 04:46.000 --> 04:54.000 Okay. She worked with them for 46 years. 47 04:54.000 --> 04:54.000 Really? Well, now, what was your mother's name? 48 04:54.000 --> 05:00.000 Her name was Elizabeth Johnson. 49 05:00.000 --> 05:00.000 Elizabeth Johnson? 50 05:00.000 --> 05:01.000 Yes. 51 05:01.000 --> 05:01.000 Okay. Now, and your father's name was? 52 05:01.000 --> 05:07.000 Albert Johnson. 53 05:07.000 --> 05:08.000 Albert Johnson? 54 05:08.000 --> 05:08.000 Yeah. 55 05:08.000 --> 05:08.000 He worked for the American Tobacco Factory? 56 05:08.000 --> 05:08.000 Right. 57 05:08.000 --> 05:08.000 What end of town did you all live on? 58 05:08.000 --> 05:16.000 The West End. 59 05:16.000 --> 05:19.000 Okay. Now West End being what street now in— 60 05:19.000 --> 05:24.000 Okay. That's in the, I would say, the west part of Durham. 61 05:24.000 --> 05:31.000 Okay. Now, can you give me a street name now? What's over there? 62 05:31.000 --> 05:34.000 Yeah, Kent Street. It runs off Wade Avenue. 63 05:34.000 --> 05:36.000 Okay. 64 05:36.000 --> 05:39.000 Okay. Coming back from Duke University. 65 05:39.000 --> 05:39.000 Okay, so you lived over on that end of town? 66 05:39.000 --> 05:39.000 Yes, uh-huh. 67 05:39.000 --> 05:45.000 How many children were in family? You say you came from a large family. 68 05:45.000 --> 05:46.000 There were six of us. 69 05:46.000 --> 05:46.000 Okay. 70 05:46.000 --> 05:54.000 Not including the ones that my mother took in off the street and our friends and whatever. 71 05:54.000 --> 05:54.000 There was clearly— 72 05:54.000 --> 05:57.000 There were a lot. Back then, everybody was a family. 73 05:57.000 --> 05:57.000 Everybody was family. 74 05:57.000 --> 05:58.000 Right. 75 05:58.000 --> 06:07.000 Everybody was family. From the ghetto, what do you mean by the ghetto? 76 06:07.000 --> 06:20.000 Well, from the area where people looked at us as people that would probably not do anything in life or with their lives. 77 06:20.000 --> 06:23.000 Yeah. 78 06:23.000 --> 06:30.000 The West End has been most successful with lots of successful people coming out. 79 06:30.000 --> 06:35.000 Okay. Okay. So, well, tell me a little bit about that West End, then. 80 06:35.000 --> 06:35.000 Well— 81 06:35.000 --> 06:36.000 How did the West End differ from— 82 06:36.000 --> 06:51.000 Well, you had areas where this type of our class of people lived and that type of class of people lived and everybody was classed. 83 06:51.000 --> 06:53.000 Okay. We're going to talk about those class structures when we come back. 84 06:53.000 --> 06:53.000 Okay. 85 06:53.000 --> 06:53.000 Would you just sort of continue talking about those— 86 06:53.000 --> 06:58.000 Classes? 87 06:58.000 --> 06:59.000 Class structures that you're talking about. 88 06:59.000 --> 07:23.000 Okay. Now, when I say class, I mean, like there were children that we were in school with and their parents were able to be teachers and doctors and lawyers and principals and whatever, so this is what I mean by the different to me. 89 07:23.000 --> 07:24.000 Did you all live in the same neighborhoods? 90 07:24.000 --> 07:24.000 No. 91 07:24.000 --> 07:25.000 Okay. 92 07:25.000 --> 07:31.000 This is what I mean. One part of town, other part of town. 93 07:31.000 --> 07:34.000 Okay. Where did the people who could afford the— 94 07:34.000 --> 07:40.000 Okay. They were on this side of town. Like Fayetteville Street. 95 07:40.000 --> 07:41.000 Okay. 96 07:41.000 --> 07:42.000 Believe it or not. 97 07:42.000 --> 07:44.000 In and down Fayetteville Street area. 98 07:44.000 --> 07:45.000 Area. Right. 99 07:45.000 --> 07:49.000 Those of you came from backgrounds where parents were more or less working class people— 100 07:49.000 --> 07:50.000 Right. 101 07:50.000 --> 07:53.000 They were on what was called the West End? 102 07:53.000 --> 07:56.000 Right. Law Town, North Durham. 103 07:56.000 --> 07:57.000 Okay. 104 07:57.000 --> 08:00.000 Those places. But when you got to this area, a little bit above Burthey Funeral Home. 105 08:00.000 --> 08:05.000 Okay. 106 08:05.000 --> 08:20.000 On whatever, in that area you, this is where you start finding the change. 107 08:20.000 --> 08:21.000 You didn't attend schools with these children? 108 08:21.000 --> 08:21.000 Of course we did. 109 08:21.000 --> 08:25.000 Oh, you did attend schools with them? 110 08:25.000 --> 08:34.000 Yes, uh-huh. We were classmates. Where at this particular time we were like—that's my son in the blue t-shirt. 111 08:34.000 --> 08:35.000 Okay. 112 08:35.000 --> 08:43.000 That's his cousin and the White t-shirt. Okay. It was like, we were all in school. We met together when we got to high school. 113 08:43.000 --> 08:43.000 Okay. 114 08:43.000 --> 08:47.000 Because at this particular time, the school— 115 08:47.000 --> 08:47.000 Now, what time period are we talking about here? 116 08:47.000 --> 08:52.000 Okay. In high school, you're talking about in the early '50s. 117 08:52.000 --> 08:55.000 Okay. The early '50s. 118 08:55.000 --> 08:55.000 Mm-hmm. 119 08:55.000 --> 08:58.000 This is still prior to days before integration. 120 08:58.000 --> 09:01.000 Yeah, because integration, yeah, didn't set in until the '60s. 121 09:01.000 --> 09:01.000 Okay. 122 09:01.000 --> 09:03.000 Right? 123 09:03.000 --> 09:04.000 Yeah. 124 09:04.000 --> 09:08.000 Okay. Because when I finished high school, we were still riding the back of the bus. 125 09:08.000 --> 09:09.000 Okay. 126 09:09.000 --> 09:17.000 Okay. We were still going to Colored this and Colored that and going in back doors and all of this. 127 09:17.000 --> 09:20.000 When you say ride the bus, what was that experience? 128 09:20.000 --> 10:14.000 Boom. I don't know how I went through that. It's unbelievable. Because you got on the bus, and when I was in school, we would have to catch the bus from school to Five Points, which is another part, and then get on another bus to bring us to where we live. You getting on the bus downtown and the bus, there are plenty of seats up front. The bus driver says we would actually sit down in these seats, the front seats. And then he would say, I never will forget. He would say, "If you don't get up, I'm going to put you off or either get the police." And then we only had White police. Well, they started hiring Blacks, but the only problem was the Blacks couldn't arrest. 129 10:14.000 --> 10:14.000 Really? 130 10:14.000 --> 10:16.000 It was just a White. 131 10:16.000 --> 10:25.000 Black officers here in Durham, those first Black officers that— 132 10:25.000 --> 10:25.000 Could not arrest. 133 10:25.000 --> 10:25.000 This was still sometime in, throughout the 1950s? 134 10:25.000 --> 10:25.000 Right. 135 10:25.000 --> 10:25.000 So if there were Black officers, they couldn't arrest anyone. 136 10:25.000 --> 10:25.000 No. 137 10:25.000 --> 10:26.000 Not Black nor White? Could the arrest Black people? 138 10:26.000 --> 10:38.000 No, they couldn't. They could arrest Blacks, but they couldn't touch the White. 139 10:38.000 --> 10:38.000 They could not arrest Whites. Isn't that interesting? 140 10:38.000 --> 10:38.000 I tell you, it's unbelievable. 141 10:38.000 --> 10:40.000 Where did you attend school? 142 10:40.000 --> 10:44.000 Elementary school, Hills—I'm sorry, Lion Park. 143 10:44.000 --> 10:44.000 Where is that? 144 10:44.000 --> 10:44.000 That's on- 145 10:44.000 --> 10:44.000 Lion Park? 146 10:44.000 --> 10:53.000 Uh-huh. That's on the corner of Halley and Kent and the school has closed down. They closed the school down. 147 10:53.000 --> 10:53.000 Okay. 148 10:53.000 --> 11:03.000 I went to junior high at Whitted School, and from there I went to Hillside. 149 11:03.000 --> 11:03.000 You finished high school— 150 11:03.000 --> 11:04.000 Hillside, mm-hmm. 151 11:04.000 --> 11:08.000 Hillside. Now, is Hillside, was that the all-Black high school? 152 11:08.000 --> 11:19.000 That was the only, well we had a county all-Black and a city all-White [read: Black]. Hillside was a city all-White [read: Black] and Merrick Moore was the all-Black. 153 11:19.000 --> 11:20.000 Okay. Those of you from the city limits— 154 11:20.000 --> 11:20.000 Went to Hillside. 155 11:20.000 --> 11:22.000 Went to Hillside. 156 11:22.000 --> 11:24.000 From everywhere, all over the city. 157 11:24.000 --> 11:31.000 All over Durham City, so therefore, you merged in with these children from all different class backgrounds. 158 11:31.000 --> 11:31.000 Right. 159 11:31.000 --> 11:31.000 Regardless of what kind of economic backgrounds they came from. 160 11:31.000 --> 11:36.000 Right, right. 161 11:36.000 --> 11:37.000 How did you feel about that? [crosstalk 00:11:37]. What kind of impact did it have on you? 162 11:37.000 --> 11:46.000 Well, we accepted it. We accepted it because this is all we knew. 163 11:46.000 --> 11:46.000 Okay. 164 11:46.000 --> 12:41.000 We didn't know anything about anything else, but it was frightening. For instance, if you may go to a store and you want water or you have to use the restroom and you got to use the Colored and the White, and if you couldn't get in the side that said Colored, you would ask, and I remember so well. I was just a little girl, about 10 years old. A young lady took me with her downtown Durham, and I had to use the bathroom, and my mother just bought me a new coat. The lady told this lady that had me, she said, "Could we just use your bathroom? The little girl has to use the bathroom." She said, no. White lady, but you know, I just thought that was awful. 165 12:41.000 --> 12:48.000 I'm sure that had to have an impact on you as a 10-year-old child as to why you really couldn't just go in and use the bathroom. 166 12:48.000 --> 12:48.000 I tell you. 167 12:48.000 --> 12:48.000 Yeah. 168 12:48.000 --> 13:11.000 We went on with this and then things started breaking with Martin Luther King and others, and it's surprising to me now, I think if Martin Luther King came back, he would be totally upset to see how things are, to me, turning around, just in a different— 169 13:11.000 --> 13:24.000 What was it in the '40s and '50s that you recall your parents doing that was a clear sign of they did it simply because they were Black? 170 13:24.000 --> 13:24.000 Right off, I can't recall anything that they really did. They did so many things. 171 13:24.000 --> 13:35.000 Can I close this? 172 13:35.000 --> 13:41.000 Please. I really can't recall anything right now. 173 13:41.000 --> 13:48.000 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now, do you recall anything, any of the specifics of your mother having worked as a maid for the Duke family? 174 13:48.000 --> 14:00.000 Well, as my mother working for the Duke family, it didn't make any difference to them. Believe it or not. 175 14:00.000 --> 14:02.000 The Duke family? It really didn't make a difference to them? 176 14:02.000 --> 14:20.000 It made no difference. We were just like their children. I mean, to them, we were invited to their homes. We were treated as their children. We were welcomed into the home in which we did visit them quite often. 177 14:20.000 --> 14:22.000 Really? Now, where did the Dukes live at this time? 178 14:22.000 --> 14:22.000 They lived in Forest Hills. 179 14:22.000 --> 14:22.000 Okay. Now, that's clearly the White section— 180 14:22.000 --> 14:22.000 Right. 181 14:22.000 --> 14:22.000 Of town. 182 14:22.000 --> 14:22.000 Right. 183 14:22.000 --> 14:22.000 They were out in the Forest Hills area? 184 14:22.000 --> 14:22.000 Right. 185 14:22.000 --> 14:42.000 Now, how was it that your mother was fortunate enough to work for the Dukes? I'm sure there tons of women who were here— 186 14:42.000 --> 14:42.000 Yeah. 187 14:42.000 --> 14:53.000 Who were positive, who may have even saw her job as a real good job working for the Duke family. 188 14:53.000 --> 15:03.000 Yeah. But you know what? When my mother was working for the Duke family, when she first started working there, I can remember very well as her bringing home $12, in 50 cent pieces. 189 15:03.000 --> 15:05.000 Okay, now— 190 15:05.000 --> 15:07.000 But that was a lot of money. 191 15:07.000 --> 15:09.000 When was this time? 192 15:09.000 --> 15:12.000 Oh, let me see. I was nine years old, so that was 1949. 193 15:12.000 --> 15:16.000 Okay. In the late 1940s and she bought this home like per week, or? 194 15:16.000 --> 15:18.000 Per week. 195 15:18.000 --> 15:23.000 Okay. She bought home $12 in 50 cents per week. 196 15:23.000 --> 15:23.000 Right. 197 15:23.000 --> 15:23.000 In 50 cent pieces. 198 15:23.000 --> 15:26.000 Pieces in an envelope. I never forget it. 199 15:26.000 --> 15:28.000 That's how they paid her. 200 15:28.000 --> 15:28.000 That's how they paid her. 201 15:28.000 --> 15:34.000 Really? I can imagine $12.50 may have went a long ways in that time. 202 15:34.000 --> 15:35.000 Oh, of course it did. 203 15:35.000 --> 15:35.000 Yeah. 204 15:35.000 --> 15:38.000 Yeah. We did real well. 205 15:38.000 --> 15:38.000 Really? 206 15:38.000 --> 15:44.000 Yeah. Like I say, we didn't have everything, but we lived comfortable for a poor family. 207 15:44.000 --> 15:50.000 Really? Now, did you find yourself making friends with some of those other children who may have been from professional classes? 208 15:50.000 --> 15:50.000 Of course, we did. Of course, we did. 209 15:50.000 --> 15:50.000 You did have friends who were— 210 15:50.000 --> 15:50.000 Right. 211 15:50.000 --> 15:57.000 Up and down Fayetteville Street. 212 15:57.000 --> 16:06.000 And they made us feel good because we say, "Wow, we know this person, we know that person." It was no problem. We became the best of friends. 213 16:06.000 --> 16:11.000 Really? Who were some of the people on this end of town? Up and down Fayetteville Street? 214 16:11.000 --> 16:11.000 Well, I was— 215 16:11.000 --> 16:11.000 That you were calling and what were some of the things that they did? 216 16:11.000 --> 16:20.000 Okay. Well, the Schoolers- 217 16:20.000 --> 16:23.000 The Schoolers? 218 16:23.000 --> 16:25.000 J.M. Schooler. 219 16:25.000 --> 16:25.000 Okay. 220 16:25.000 --> 16:39.000 His wife was a teacher and he was the first principal that I knew in elementary school, and unfortunately he followed us. I don't know how it worked, but when I got to junior high, he was there. 221 16:39.000 --> 16:39.000 Unfortunately? 222 16:39.000 --> 16:39.000 Mm-hmm. Yep. 223 16:39.000 --> 16:40.000 Sounds like he was probably one of those strict disciplinarians. 224 16:40.000 --> 16:47.000 Oh, he was. He was good. 225 16:47.000 --> 16:47.000 Really? 226 16:47.000 --> 16:53.000 Yeah. And hen when I got to high school, I met his children. 227 16:53.000 --> 16:53.000 Okay. 228 16:53.000 --> 16:54.000 We became the best of friends. 229 16:54.000 --> 16:54.000 Okay. 230 16:54.000 --> 16:54.000 And there was no problem. 231 16:54.000 --> 16:54.000 Okay. What was school like then? Tell me a little bit about your school days. 232 16:54.000 --> 16:54.000 Well, school was good. 233 16:54.000 --> 16:55.000 Okay. 234 16:55.000 --> 17:13.000 In fact, I like the way our schools were then more so than today. 235 17:13.000 --> 17:15.000 Okay. What do you like about the schools then? 236 17:15.000 --> 17:46.000 Okay. We learned more. Our teachers took more time with each child, because first of all, at the beginning of the year, couple of days, or week before school opened, the parents—I mean, the teachers would get a list of the home of the students in their homeroom and they would get out and go into the neighborhood and visit the home, so they found out what they were dealing with. 237 17:46.000 --> 17:52.000 Teachers really sort of developed relationships with— 238 17:52.000 --> 17:52.000 They did. 239 17:52.000 --> 17:52.000 —their children and their families. 240 17:52.000 --> 17:52.000 Right. It was like a family. 241 17:52.000 --> 17:54.000 Exactly. 242 17:54.000 --> 18:24.000 We actually learned more, and they'd turn out better students. But today, since the schools are integrated, it's really a problem because—I guess, it's a change in the children today, too. I can't put the total blame on the teachers, but I just don't think our children today as Black children learn—one thing, the time, taking up the time. 243 18:24.000 --> 18:25.000 Yeah. 244 18:25.000 --> 18:37.000 Because you have slow learners and fast learners and whatever. It's just totally different. I know that our White teachers really don't take up the time. 245 18:37.000 --> 18:44.000 Okay. Interesting. You're saying that that's clearly one of the downfalls of integration? 246 18:44.000 --> 18:45.000 Yeah. 247 18:45.000 --> 18:52.000 Okay. Now, what are your recollections of North Carolina Central University with the college here? There was a Black college in your town. 248 18:52.000 --> 18:57.000 Now, they really supported us. 249 18:57.000 --> 18:59.000 Back in the '40s and '50s? What are some of the- 250 18:59.000 --> 19:16.000 Well, I thought that was great because Dr. Shepard. I thought that was great to know Dr. Shepard. I've seen him quite a few times and as a little girl, and I just thought that was great. 251 19:16.000 --> 19:16.000 You sort of admired this man? 252 19:16.000 --> 19:16.000 Right. 253 19:16.000 --> 19:21.000 Who had founded this college in your hometown. 254 19:21.000 --> 19:21.000 Right. 255 19:21.000 --> 19:25.000 And an all-Black college at that. 256 19:25.000 --> 19:27.000 Right. And it's a very popular school. 257 19:27.000 --> 19:39.000 Yeah. Yeah. What do you recall about your father then? We talked about your mother. What do you recall about your father having worked at— 258 19:39.000 --> 19:40.000 American? 259 19:40.000 --> 19:41.000 Mm-hmm. 260 19:41.000 --> 19:51.000 Well, I tell you how my daddy got that job. It's unbelievable. I often talk to him about it. He's almost 80 years old now. 261 19:51.000 --> 19:52.000 Your father's still alive? 262 19:52.000 --> 19:52.000 He's still alive. 263 19:52.000 --> 19:54.000 What's your father's name? 264 19:54.000 --> 20:00.000 His name is Albert Johnson. 265 20:00.000 --> 20:01.000 Okay. 266 20:01.000 --> 20:34.000 As you know, back then, it was like the White superintendents, the White supervisors, everything was White over the Blacks. They would call you all kind of names, anything just to make you leave this job. Because I recall so many times my daddy coming home so upset, just so upset because he'd been called a nigger. These barrels, these big barrels, they had to roll, I guess, they were trying them on the basis of that to see how much work they could do. 267 20:34.000 --> 20:36.000 Yeah, yeah. 268 20:36.000 --> 20:43.000 I think out of his 46 years there, I don't think my daddy missed three days out of work. 269 20:43.000 --> 20:43.000 He worked there for 46 years? 270 20:43.000 --> 20:58.000 And he walked there. Right. He walked there and he would be sick, but he still went to work because he had a family to support, and he didn't want to lose his job, so he toughed it out. 271 20:58.000 --> 20:58.000 What kind of work did he do? 272 20:58.000 --> 21:15.000 Well, he did a little of everything. I think just before he retired, he had been elevated to a night watchman. It took him that long to just get to that. 273 21:15.000 --> 21:18.000 Yeah. Do you recall what kind of salary? What kind of money he— 274 21:18.000 --> 21:19.000 Well, 275 21:19.000 --> 21:24.000 —perhaps started out making or when he even began working at American? 276 21:24.000 --> 21:25.000 I can't remember when. I was a little girl. 277 21:25.000 --> 21:25.000 Okay. 278 21:25.000 --> 21:31.000 Because before then, I remember him washing dishes at Duke University. 279 21:31.000 --> 21:33.000 Okay. Washing? 280 21:33.000 --> 21:34.000 He was a dishwasher. 281 21:34.000 --> 21:35.000 Over at Duke University. 282 21:35.000 --> 21:35.000 Uh-huh. 283 21:35.000 --> 21:35.000 Really? 284 21:35.000 --> 21:44.000 How he got this job at American? I don't know. But to get that job, you had to rate pretty high, back then. 285 21:44.000 --> 21:47.000 Okay. When you say rate pretty high, what do you mean? 286 21:47.000 --> 21:51.000 Well, I don't know. You had to have somebody to help get you in. 287 21:51.000 --> 21:52.000 Somebody had to give you a good word. 288 21:52.000 --> 21:54.000 Somebody had to know. Right. 289 21:54.000 --> 22:03.000 Really. Well, was it after your father started working for American Tobacco Company, that your mother then began working for the Duke family? 290 22:03.000 --> 22:09.000 Yes. Uh-huh. 291 22:09.000 --> 22:09.000 Okay. Do you think there may have been a connection there? 292 22:09.000 --> 22:09.000 No. 293 22:09.000 --> 22:11.000 How did she manage to get there? Did you ever tell me how she got there? 294 22:11.000 --> 22:16.000 No, I didn't tell you. It was like, there was a lady across the street. 295 22:16.000 --> 22:18.000 From where you all lived? 296 22:18.000 --> 22:20.000 Lived on the West End. 297 22:20.000 --> 22:20.000 Okay. 298 22:20.000 --> 22:22.000 That was working for the Duke family. 299 22:22.000 --> 22:22.000 Okay. 300 22:22.000 --> 22:38.000 She knew my mother needed a job. My mother was making it, but she needed a job that she was sure of, and this lady recommended my mother, and these people my mother went to see them. They hired her right off. 301 22:38.000 --> 22:42.000 So obviously they liked her. 302 22:42.000 --> 22:43.000 They liked her. Yeah. 303 22:43.000 --> 22:47.000 Liked something about her, or surely they liked her. 304 22:47.000 --> 22:47.000 Right. 305 22:47.000 --> 22:48.000 Now, when you say the Duke family, which family in specific that she worked for? Did she clean? 306 22:48.000 --> 22:56.000 Well, it was Doris Duke's first cousin. Mary Semans. 307 22:56.000 --> 22:59.000 Okay. 308 22:59.000 --> 22:59.000 Mary Duke Semans. 309 22:59.000 --> 23:00.000 Okay. Mary Duke. 310 23:00.000 --> 23:03.000 Duke. Mm-hmm. 311 23:03.000 --> 23:18.000 Okay. As a child, where did you go? Where could you go and where couldn't you go being from the West End of town? If you wanted to go to the store, where could? Did you have roam to go to any store you wanted to, or that kind thing? Or where there restrictions as to where you could go as a child? Where you were told that you shouldn't go? 312 23:18.000 --> 23:18.000 You mean by my parents? 313 23:18.000 --> 23:19.000 Mm-hmm. 314 23:19.000 --> 23:52.000 Well, yes. Back then you had no other choice, but to mind your parents, so there was a little store in our neighborhood and we were only allowed to go there. 315 23:52.000 --> 23:56.000 This was a Black-owned store? 316 23:56.000 --> 24:07.000 Black-owned store, and we were only allowed to go there. Then, on Sundays we could go to an ice cream parlor, which was owned by Blacks, a few blocks away. 317 24:07.000 --> 24:07.000 That was a Black ice cream parlor? 318 24:07.000 --> 24:13.000 Right. We could only go there only if we went to church and Sunday school. 319 24:13.000 --> 24:15.000 Okay. That- 320 24:15.000 --> 24:16.000 That was a treat. 321 24:16.000 --> 24:17.000 Yeah. If you went to church, you could have ice cream on Sunday. 322 24:17.000 --> 24:17.000 Right. 323 24:17.000 --> 24:17.000 Where did family attend church? 324 24:17.000 --> 24:25.000 At that time? It was Second Baptist. Now it's First Calvary. 325 24:25.000 --> 24:25.000 It's what? 326 24:25.000 --> 24:29.000 First Cavalry. Well, first it was Second Baptist. 327 24:29.000 --> 24:29.000 Okay. 328 24:29.000 --> 24:30.000 Now, it's First Cavalry. 329 24:30.000 --> 24:39.000 First Calvary. Where is it located? 330 24:39.000 --> 24:41.000 On the corner of Morehead and Kent. 331 24:41.000 --> 24:44.000 Okay. You pretty much went to church in your neighborhood? 332 24:44.000 --> 24:46.000 Everything was right in the neighborhood. 333 24:46.000 --> 24:48.000 What was the religion there? What was the background? 334 24:48.000 --> 24:48.000 Baptist? 335 24:48.000 --> 24:53.000 It was a Baptist church. Were your parents pretty religious and church-going people? 336 24:53.000 --> 24:53.000 Very. 337 24:53.000 --> 24:53.000 Did either one of them hold positions in the church? 338 24:53.000 --> 25:01.000 Well, not as a position, but like they were ushers and they sang the choir and they taught us to do the same thing. 339 25:01.000 --> 25:02.000 Okay. Do you still attend that church? 340 25:02.000 --> 25:17.000 No, I moved my membership to Morehead Baptist after I got married, which is right down the street. 341 25:17.000 --> 25:17.000 Which is right down the street, so you're not going to get too far from home? 342 25:17.000 --> 25:17.000 No. 343 25:17.000 --> 25:31.000 If we can begin to talk a little bit about The Chicken Hut itself. Okay. Where was The Chicken Hut founded? 344 25:31.000 --> 25:45.000 Okay, The Chicken Box. Okay. That was the name originally, and my husband started out on Apex Highway. I was just a young girl then, so we weren't married. 345 25:45.000 --> 25:45.000 Okay. 346 25:45.000 --> 25:48.000 It was just a shape of a box. 347 25:48.000 --> 25:48.000 Okay. 348 25:48.000 --> 25:52.000 That's why he named me The Chicken Box. His sister named it The Chicken Box. 349 25:52.000 --> 25:53.000 His sister named it? 350 25:53.000 --> 25:53.000 Yes. Mm-hmm. 351 25:53.000 --> 25:56.000 The Chicken Box. Okay. 352 25:56.000 --> 26:09.000 He stayed there, I guess, a couple of years, until one night he told me he only made something like 40 cent for an order of french fries. 353 26:09.000 --> 26:09.000 Really? 354 26:09.000 --> 26:12.000 So he closed down at that particular place. 355 26:12.000 --> 26:14.000 Okay. 356 26:14.000 --> 26:23.000 He was totally out of business until maybe a few months later, he just happened to be riding by on Roxboro Street, which was known as Pine Street. 357 26:23.000 --> 26:25.000 Okay. 358 26:25.000 --> 26:28.000 That's where he started the next Chicken Box. 359 26:28.000 --> 26:32.000 Now, when was this now? 360 26:32.000 --> 26:32.000 This was in 1957. 361 26:32.000 --> 26:33.000 1957. 362 26:33.000 --> 26:48.000 Mm-hmm. We were burned out in that location in 1966, but Urban Renewal had already told him he had to move, so he was in the process of building this building. 363 26:48.000 --> 26:50.000 Urban Renewal had told him he had to move. 364 26:50.000 --> 26:51.000 Right. 365 26:51.000 --> 26:52.000 What was that Urban Renewal? 366 26:52.000 --> 27:08.000 Well, right now, Scarborough Funeral Home, Elkins Motor Company, all of these places, see, everything was Black-owned over there. Nothing but Black businesses, and on Pettigrew Street, we had our Black movie. We had everything, but now you have nothing. 367 27:08.000 --> 27:10.000 That whole area— 368 27:10.000 --> 27:10.000 Area. 369 27:10.000 --> 27:12.000 Over there down where Scarborough— 370 27:12.000 --> 27:21.000 Pine Street, where Scarborough Funeral Home is now, Roxboro Street and going on around Pettigrew Street. 371 27:21.000 --> 27:22.000 Down by the railroad tracks? 372 27:22.000 --> 27:32.000 Yes. All of that was owned, nothing but a string of Black businesses, and Urban Renewal came by and wiped everybody out. 373 27:32.000 --> 27:37.000 That's why that vibrant arts and Black business district is no longer there. 374 27:37.000 --> 27:42.000 No. Very few of those people are living. 375 27:42.000 --> 27:42.000 Really? 376 27:42.000 --> 27:46.000 I think that this did something to them. 377 27:46.000 --> 27:52.000 Yeah. Yeah. Now, was The Chicken Box in that area? 378 27:52.000 --> 27:57.000 We were located right where Elkins Motor Company is now, 379 27:57.000 --> 27:58.000 Which motor company? 380 27:58.000 --> 28:03.000 Elkins Motor. 381 28:03.000 --> 28:03.000 Okay. 382 28:03.000 --> 28:03.000 I mean, a car lot. 383 28:03.000 --> 28:03.000 Okay. 384 28:03.000 --> 28:04.000 Car dealership rather. 385 28:04.000 --> 28:04.000 But you all were burned out from that location? 386 28:04.000 --> 28:12.000 Yeah. We were burned out, but we were in the process getting ready to move because they had told us we had to move. 387 28:12.000 --> 28:15.000 Okay. And then is that when you moved to this present location? 388 28:15.000 --> 28:26.000 Yes. Uh-huh. So, well, we were out of business until September 1966 because they hadn't finished this building. 389 28:26.000 --> 28:26.000 Okay. 390 28:26.000 --> 28:29.000 We moved in here on September 10th, 1966. 391 28:29.000 --> 28:32.000 Moved in 1966. 392 28:32.000 --> 28:37.000 Mm-hmm, and we were burned out June 8th of 1966. 393 28:37.000 --> 28:39.000 You weren't out of business too long. 394 28:39.000 --> 28:40.000 No. 395 28:40.000 --> 28:41.000 Just a couple of months. 396 28:41.000 --> 28:50.000 Right. But my husband was trying to hold on to all of his employees, trying to scribble scrabble and pay, because he had good employees. 397 28:50.000 --> 28:58.000 Yeah. It sounds like you all came into your new building right in the height of the Civil Rights Movement. 398 28:58.000 --> 29:06.000 Yeah. Yeah. We had a lot to do with the sit-ins. We fed a lot of the people, the CORE. I don't know whether you've ever heard of that. 399 29:06.000 --> 29:07.000 Yeah. 400 29:07.000 --> 29:19.000 Yeah. We fed that organization with McKissick, Floyd McKissick, and I've forgotten the White man that was working with him. It's been years ago. 401 29:19.000 --> 29:19.000