WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.003 --> 00:00:05.003
What I'm thinking, Barry, is maybe we get started
2
00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:09.900
just in a conversation with, okay, we'll, making sure
3
00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:14.900
the date today is November 19th, is that right, 2015?
4
00:00:16.110 --> 00:00:17.490
I'm Alex Harris,
5
00:00:17.490 --> 00:00:19.593
and I'm here with Barry Norris,
6
00:00:20.670 --> 00:00:24.053
who printed an exhibition that
7
00:00:24.053 --> 00:00:27.967
is now in the Rubenstein Library for the book,
8
00:00:27.967 --> 00:00:30.297
"Gertrude Blom: Bearing Witness".
9
00:00:32.490 --> 00:00:36.330
I was thinking about these prints this morning
10
00:00:36.330 --> 00:00:40.200
and seeing them again now,
11
00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:43.827
recognizing that Barry was
12
00:00:43.827 --> 00:00:48.450
and is one of the great master printers in this country
13
00:00:48.450 --> 00:00:51.633
and maybe in the world, and this is a unique collection.
14
00:00:52.800 --> 00:00:57.163
So Barry, where do we start in terms of
15
00:00:57.163 --> 00:01:00.505
this group of prints?
16
00:01:00.505 --> 00:01:03.363
How was it made, where was it made?
17
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:07.500
What type of prints are these,
18
00:01:07.500 --> 00:01:10.350
just kind of basic information?
19
00:01:10.350 --> 00:01:11.910
We we want to talk about
20
00:01:11.910 --> 00:01:13.980
how the selection was made also
21
00:01:13.980 --> 00:01:16.143
and where this all came from.
Sure.
22
00:01:17.477 --> 00:01:19.307
What, see, I realize that a lot of
23
00:01:19.307 --> 00:01:20.140
that information is in this book.
24
00:01:20.140 --> 00:01:22.920
Right.
But let's start there
25
00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:24.540
at least to orient ourselves.
26
00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:25.373
Sure.
27
00:01:25.373 --> 00:01:27.120
And so you had first seen the work
28
00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:32.120
of Gertrude Blom at ICP prior to a show of your own work,
29
00:01:32.790 --> 00:01:35.460
I'd left a portfolio with one of the people
30
00:01:35.460 --> 00:01:37.530
that worked there, I can't remember his name now,
31
00:01:37.530 --> 00:01:39.750
but I think maybe Bill Ewing or something like that.
32
00:01:39.750 --> 00:01:43.350
And he had shown it to you as you were looking for
33
00:01:43.350 --> 00:01:48.270
other photographers to perhaps do a book,
34
00:01:48.270 --> 00:01:51.849
unknown photographers who you might use for
35
00:01:51.849 --> 00:01:53.220
publication-
We had just formed
36
00:01:53.220 --> 00:01:55.440
the Center for Documentary Photography,
37
00:01:55.440 --> 00:01:58.080
and we had a book publishing program,
38
00:01:58.080 --> 00:01:59.190
which meant we were looking
39
00:01:59.190 --> 00:02:01.560
for unique bodies of work to print
40
00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:06.090
that said something about photography, documentary-
41
00:02:06.090 --> 00:02:07.020
Right.
42
00:02:07.020 --> 00:02:08.401
Yeah.
43
00:02:08.401 --> 00:02:09.420
And the, so that's where it all began, I think.
44
00:02:09.420 --> 00:02:10.860
And you, very shortly
45
00:02:10.860 --> 00:02:14.610
after that came down to Mexico, you visited Na Bolom
46
00:02:14.610 --> 00:02:16.440
and looked at, looked at the archive,
47
00:02:16.440 --> 00:02:20.055
and then later came back with Margaret to do the selection,
48
00:02:20.055 --> 00:02:22.200
which was a pretty long
49
00:02:22.200 --> 00:02:25.680
and arduous process going through all of the negatives,
50
00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:29.200
making you actually, you actually had
51
00:02:30.709 --> 00:02:33.300
contact prints made of all of the negatives,
52
00:02:33.300 --> 00:02:36.610
which hadn't been done up to that time, which was also
53
00:02:38.043 --> 00:02:40.290
a unique part of this process of documenting Trudi's work
54
00:02:40.290 --> 00:02:43.950
and gave you the ability to make this selection.
55
00:02:43.950 --> 00:02:48.780
So yeah, and I was only partially involved
56
00:02:48.780 --> 00:02:51.720
in that part of it, I think.
57
00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:54.840
As I remember, there was a volcanic eruption in the middle
58
00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:56.793
of this thing that we sent down,
59
00:02:58.657 --> 00:03:01.050
a photographer, Tim Burns,
60
00:03:01.050 --> 00:03:02.880
to do all the contact printing.
61
00:03:02.880 --> 00:03:04.450
Right.
62
00:03:04.450 --> 00:03:06.600
And then you had inches of dust on everywhere-
63
00:03:06.600 --> 00:03:07.849
Right.
64
00:03:07.849 --> 00:03:08.682
Yeah.
65
00:03:08.682 --> 00:03:10.740
That was a major pyroclastic eruption in the state
66
00:03:10.740 --> 00:03:12.750
of Chiapas and whatever that year was.
67
00:03:12.750 --> 00:03:14.760
It must have been 1982,-
68
00:03:14.760 --> 00:03:15.840
Yeah.
I believe.
69
00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:19.380
But yeah we set the scene for Na Bolom.
70
00:03:19.380 --> 00:03:22.890
What, you know, why would you have an archive at Na Bolom,
71
00:03:22.890 --> 00:03:25.470
but have thousands of negatives
72
00:03:25.470 --> 00:03:26.820
that had never been contacted.
73
00:03:26.820 --> 00:03:29.586
What was the archive like? What was the darkroom like?
74
00:03:29.586 --> 00:03:32.910
Why was it there? Why was the archive there?
75
00:03:32.910 --> 00:03:35.340
Well, it's, it was the home of Gertrude Blom,
76
00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:40.340
and so all of her work was naturally stored in her home.
77
00:03:40.530 --> 00:03:44.004
But being a provincial city in southern Mexico,
78
00:03:44.004 --> 00:03:49.004
quite difficult to get the materials to
79
00:03:51.510 --> 00:03:55.080
make photographic prints or to even to develop film.
80
00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:57.330
And I think earlier in Trudi's work,
81
00:03:57.330 --> 00:03:59.430
she had sent off her film
82
00:03:59.430 --> 00:04:01.800
to Mexico City to have it developed.
83
00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:03.450
And there were people in Mexico City
84
00:04:03.450 --> 00:04:06.813
who helped with printing.
85
00:04:08.511 --> 00:04:10.080
And I'm not sure if anyone was making actual
86
00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:12.060
contact sheets at that time.
87
00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:16.110
Eventually, Na Bolom, which was the name of Trudi's home,
88
00:04:16.110 --> 00:04:20.070
they put in a small dark room, were able to buy
89
00:04:20.070 --> 00:04:21.810
some equipment, a small
90
00:04:21.810 --> 00:04:25.042
and larger that was capable of printing medium format,
91
00:04:25.042 --> 00:04:27.720
black and white negatives.
92
00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:30.690
And they began to do some of that work.
93
00:04:30.690 --> 00:04:34.290
But by that time, there had been a large body of black
94
00:04:34.290 --> 00:04:38.340
and white film that had been exposed and developed
95
00:04:38.340 --> 00:04:40.380
and was being stored there at Na Bolom
96
00:04:40.380 --> 00:04:43.110
that didn't really have contact prints,
97
00:04:43.110 --> 00:04:45.690
but they began to keep up with the newer film
98
00:04:45.690 --> 00:04:48.300
that was being shot by Trudi.
99
00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:51.906
So when I arrived, the archive was, you know,
100
00:04:51.906 --> 00:04:56.906
there were, it had been organized to some degree
101
00:04:58.050 --> 00:05:00.210
and there were some contact prints,
102
00:05:00.210 --> 00:05:03.750
but many of the negatives were just sitting in sleeves.
103
00:05:03.750 --> 00:05:05.790
They might have been assigned a number,
104
00:05:05.790 --> 00:05:08.550
they might have had some information connected
105
00:05:08.550 --> 00:05:09.957
to them or maybe not.
106
00:05:09.957 --> 00:05:14.957
And so I began working on that process, so trying to keep up
107
00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.400
with the process of contact printing the film
108
00:05:19.461 --> 00:05:20.460
and organizing it and putting it away.
109
00:05:20.460 --> 00:05:25.460
So take us back to your, not a lot of the history,
110
00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:29.790
but your arrival with Joan to Na Bolom
111
00:05:29.790 --> 00:05:31.110
and what your jobs were,
112
00:05:31.110 --> 00:05:34.950
and then how you got into this job as, as what were,
113
00:05:34.950 --> 00:05:37.843
what was your job title there, if you had one?
114
00:05:37.843 --> 00:05:40.863
Well, I think the reason for us going was to work in the,
115
00:05:41.704 --> 00:05:43.140
for me to work in the dark room.
116
00:05:43.140 --> 00:05:46.770
And the year prior to our arrival there,
117
00:05:46.770 --> 00:05:51.540
which was 1977, in 1976, we had come down
118
00:05:51.540 --> 00:05:56.250
and visited Na Bolom, had a tour, realized
119
00:05:56.250 --> 00:05:57.330
that there was a dark room,
120
00:05:57.330 --> 00:06:00.660
that there was this amazing archive of photographic material
121
00:06:00.660 --> 00:06:03.090
and that Trudi might need a printer,
122
00:06:03.090 --> 00:06:05.550
someone to work in her archive.
123
00:06:05.550 --> 00:06:10.200
So thinking about it later, we wrote to Na Bolom, and then,
124
00:06:10.200 --> 00:06:14.703
and I proposed myself as a,
125
00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.210
as somebody who could do that work for her.
126
00:06:18.210 --> 00:06:21.990
And they accepted us, and Joan came along.
127
00:06:21.990 --> 00:06:24.135
She, we were worried at first that
128
00:06:24.135 --> 00:06:26.160
she wouldn't have a place,
129
00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:27.420
but there, as it turns out,
130
00:06:27.420 --> 00:06:29.070
that there was a volunteer program
131
00:06:29.070 --> 00:06:30.630
where people came from all over the world
132
00:06:30.630 --> 00:06:32.940
and did all kinds of different work.
133
00:06:32.940 --> 00:06:36.390
So Joan immediately fell into work in the library.
134
00:06:36.390 --> 00:06:39.510
And then within a year we were both doing administrative
135
00:06:39.510 --> 00:06:42.270
work and, and each in our own separate areas
136
00:06:42.270 --> 00:06:44.520
of specialty within the house.
137
00:06:44.520 --> 00:06:49.020
But we were just young people looking for a place, wanting
138
00:06:49.020 --> 00:06:50.280
to learn to speak Spanish
139
00:06:50.280 --> 00:06:55.280
and find some opportunity to get outta the United States.
140
00:06:56.490 --> 00:06:57.890
That's how we made it there.
141
00:06:59.370 --> 00:07:03.840
So you were already a photographer, already a printer?
142
00:07:03.840 --> 00:07:04.740
Yes. Yeah.
143
00:07:04.740 --> 00:07:06.630
I had gotten interested in photo, well,
144
00:07:06.630 --> 00:07:08.880
actually been interested in photography from a
145
00:07:08.880 --> 00:07:11.340
pretty early age.
146
00:07:11.340 --> 00:07:14.460
Had a small camera, learned to process black
147
00:07:14.460 --> 00:07:16.680
and white film as a teenager.
148
00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:18.330
And when I went to college, I took a couple
149
00:07:18.330 --> 00:07:19.560
of courses in photography
150
00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:21.810
that were available at Trinity University
151
00:07:21.810 --> 00:07:25.740
and got more involved in the whole printmaking process.
152
00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:30.270
And after leaving college, I got a job as a custom black
153
00:07:30.270 --> 00:07:31.980
and white printer in San Antonio
154
00:07:31.980 --> 00:07:36.980
for a commercial photographic company.
155
00:07:37.170 --> 00:07:39.843
So it was a mostly portraiture.
156
00:07:41.010 --> 00:07:42.410
But you know, getting back
157
00:07:44.057 --> 00:07:44.940
to this collection of photographs.
158
00:07:44.940 --> 00:07:48.540
So we had thousands of contact images made.
159
00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:52.290
Margaret and I came down, I think there were two visits
160
00:07:52.290 --> 00:07:56.013
where one, where I was on my own, one where we were together
161
00:07:56.013 --> 00:07:58.170
to look at a hundred,
162
00:07:58.170 --> 00:08:03.170
I mean, you helped us sort of find the core images,
163
00:08:03.270 --> 00:08:06.132
but I think we uncovered a lot of other things.
164
00:08:06.132 --> 00:08:08.400
And we came up with a selection both for the book
165
00:08:08.400 --> 00:08:11.220
and for the exhibit that was gonna be at ICP.
166
00:08:11.220 --> 00:08:13.440
So just take us back to
167
00:08:13.440 --> 00:08:17.670
after that, once we decided on the images, these are two
168
00:08:17.670 --> 00:08:19.470
and a quarter negatives.
169
00:08:19.470 --> 00:08:20.642
Yes.
170
00:08:20.642 --> 00:08:25.110
Mostly they're two and a quarter square negatives shot
171
00:08:25.110 --> 00:08:28.969
with a Rolleiflex twin lens, reflex camera.
172
00:08:28.969 --> 00:08:32.520
Prior to her getting that camera, which I think was
173
00:08:32.520 --> 00:08:37.385
around 1950, she had been using another camera,
174
00:08:37.385 --> 00:08:41.820
an Agfa Camera that, I don't even know the name
175
00:08:41.820 --> 00:08:45.510
of the model, but it shot two and a quarter by three
176
00:08:45.510 --> 00:08:46.680
and a quarter, I think.
177
00:08:46.680 --> 00:08:49.230
And there are some images in this collection
178
00:08:49.230 --> 00:08:50.430
that were shot with that camera.
179
00:08:50.430 --> 00:08:52.950
So that was during the 1940's probably,
180
00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:56.130
that camera was purchased in maybe 1941
181
00:08:56.130 --> 00:08:59.190
or something like that, right after Trudi arrived in Mexico.
182
00:08:59.190 --> 00:09:02.189
But she had been with the media, that medium format
183
00:09:02.189 --> 00:09:06.660
since the beginning, never used a 35 millimeter camera.
184
00:09:06.660 --> 00:09:08.790
And in later years, she actually shot everything
185
00:09:08.790 --> 00:09:12.420
with two cameras, two twin lens reflex cameras, one loaded
186
00:09:12.420 --> 00:09:13.440
with black and white film,
187
00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:17.700
and one loaded with color transparency film, so.
188
00:09:17.700 --> 00:09:19.286
Something that I,
189
00:09:19.286 --> 00:09:20.220
and I know I'm interrupting you
190
00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:21.480
to answer the question I asked,
191
00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:23.930
but I'm just, I think it would be interesting to,
192
00:09:25.500 --> 00:09:27.960
for people who are looking at this print, these prints
193
00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:31.890
to know about her mastery of knowledge
194
00:09:31.890 --> 00:09:36.330
of photography itself, the technical side, the cameras.
195
00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:41.330
Where was she as a photographer in that regard?
196
00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:43.740
Well, I think she just had a very basic
197
00:09:43.740 --> 00:09:46.590
knowledge about photography.
198
00:09:46.590 --> 00:09:51.360
She knew how to pair shutter speeds
199
00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:55.290
and F stops and was able to read light.
200
00:09:55.290 --> 00:09:57.780
But she largely relied on assistants over the years
201
00:09:57.780 --> 00:10:00.630
to come up with an exposure for her,
202
00:10:00.630 --> 00:10:02.550
and then set the exposure.
203
00:10:02.550 --> 00:10:05.520
She did the focusing and framing of the image,
204
00:10:05.520 --> 00:10:07.590
but very little interest in the technical
205
00:10:07.590 --> 00:10:08.730
side of photography.
206
00:10:08.730 --> 00:10:12.245
Never processed film herself, never did any printing,
207
00:10:12.245 --> 00:10:15.630
but was just an avid photographer in
208
00:10:15.630 --> 00:10:17.700
that she did it everywhere that she went.
209
00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:19.691
She always had her cameras with her.
210
00:10:19.691 --> 00:10:24.691
She did it pretty consistently for many, many years
211
00:10:25.380 --> 00:10:30.090
and developed this enormous archive of work.
212
00:10:30.090 --> 00:10:35.090
But she was also someone who didn't really,
213
00:10:35.670 --> 00:10:39.270
I think, seek perfection in her work.
214
00:10:39.270 --> 00:10:40.740
She just did it.
215
00:10:40.740 --> 00:10:43.203
She just walked up to her subjects,
216
00:10:44.790 --> 00:10:47.310
aimed the camera, and took a picture.
217
00:10:47.310 --> 00:10:48.840
And one of the things you'll notice in a lot
218
00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:51.150
of these photographs, especially when she's photographing
219
00:10:51.150 --> 00:10:53.940
people, is the angle of view,
220
00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:56.460
because it's a waist level finder.
221
00:10:56.460 --> 00:10:59.850
And she was a very short person, about five feet
222
00:10:59.850 --> 00:11:03.420
or five feet one, all, a lot of the pictures are kind
223
00:11:03.420 --> 00:11:06.663
of looking up at the people that she's photographing.
224
00:11:11.250 --> 00:11:13.201
I don't know if I answered that question.
225
00:11:13.201 --> 00:11:14.034
No, you did.
226
00:11:14.034 --> 00:11:14.867
And I, but I,
227
00:11:14.867 --> 00:11:17.910
I interrupted you about the earlier question I asked,
228
00:11:17.910 --> 00:11:19.540
which was essentially
229
00:11:22.170 --> 00:11:23.610
how were these prints made?
230
00:11:23.610 --> 00:11:25.080
Just sort of take us through the people
231
00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:26.340
looking at these prints.
232
00:11:26.340 --> 00:11:29.670
It'd be interesting to know something about your process.
233
00:11:29.670 --> 00:11:32.550
And these are silver prints-
234
00:11:32.550 --> 00:11:33.810
Right.
235
00:11:33.810 --> 00:11:37.428
Well, you mean my particular technique of printing black
236
00:11:37.428 --> 00:11:40.080
and white, how I approach black and white photography?
237
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:41.880
Well, I think photographic, I think some people looking at
238
00:11:41.880 --> 00:11:45.840
these won't really have had any experience in the dark room.
239
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:49.020
But what I remember about you,
240
00:11:49.020 --> 00:11:50.760
and you can correct me if I'm wrong,
241
00:11:50.760 --> 00:11:53.970
but I was one of those people who would
242
00:11:53.970 --> 00:11:57.660
probably take sometimes 10 to 20 minutes
243
00:11:57.660 --> 00:11:59.640
with an image under the enlarger
244
00:11:59.640 --> 00:12:01.148
where I would burn and dodge.
245
00:12:01.148 --> 00:12:04.680
And these were negatives
246
00:12:04.680 --> 00:12:08.190
that were sometimes badly exposed, unevenly exposed.
247
00:12:08.190 --> 00:12:11.010
And what I remember about you is that you had this theory
248
00:12:11.010 --> 00:12:12.450
that you carried out, which was,
249
00:12:12.450 --> 00:12:15.960
if you could find the right exposure, the right paper,
250
00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.090
the right sequence of developers
251
00:12:18.090 --> 00:12:20.370
and timing, that you would not need
252
00:12:20.370 --> 00:12:22.320
to do any burning and dodging.
253
00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:23.153
Well, yes.
254
00:12:23.153 --> 00:12:26.490
And it is true that I tried to avoid using that technique
255
00:12:26.490 --> 00:12:28.080
for the most part.
256
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:29.820
Whenever there were areas of
257
00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:34.461
a negative that had problems that might require like
258
00:12:34.461 --> 00:12:37.231
dodging or burning, like uneven development
259
00:12:37.231 --> 00:12:40.320
of the negative, I would do it.
260
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:43.090
But I didn't feel that I needed to
261
00:12:45.270 --> 00:12:49.011
work on individual areas of the image, that I would try to
262
00:12:49.011 --> 00:12:53.692
interpret the density of the negative,
263
00:12:53.692 --> 00:12:58.692
the relative densities of a negative into the
264
00:12:58.800 --> 00:13:02.450
range of dark to light in the print,
265
00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:05.661
so that the very thinnest areas of the negative
266
00:13:05.661 --> 00:13:10.661
would be allowed to print as near too black
267
00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:15.805
as possible, but without losing some,
268
00:13:15.805 --> 00:13:18.600
any of the detail in there as,
269
00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:20.388
as much as it was possible.
270
00:13:20.388 --> 00:13:24.330
And it is true that oftentimes Trudi's negatives were
271
00:13:24.330 --> 00:13:28.200
underexposed, so they would be very thin, difficult
272
00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.997
to draw an image out that had any kind of
273
00:13:31.997 --> 00:13:34.920
contrast to it.
274
00:13:34.920 --> 00:13:39.920
So I try to find the perfect balance of exposure
275
00:13:40.530 --> 00:13:44.328
and development, the right developer,
276
00:13:44.328 --> 00:13:48.720
the right amount of time in the developer so that
277
00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.680
the tones would fall into place as much
278
00:13:52.680 --> 00:13:56.890
as I could make them do, so that when the blacks
279
00:13:58.385 --> 00:14:01.860
fell into place, also the highlights would be
280
00:14:01.860 --> 00:14:04.380
just coming in.
281
00:14:04.380 --> 00:14:07.770
See, I remember you using often two developers,
282
00:14:07.770 --> 00:14:12.270
and I believe the first developer was the faster,
283
00:14:12.270 --> 00:14:15.150
harder developer, the more contrasty one,
284
00:14:15.150 --> 00:14:17.040
and then when the blacks came in,
285
00:14:17.040 --> 00:14:19.620
you would put it in the second, softer developer
286
00:14:19.620 --> 00:14:22.050
that would allow the grays and the other tones to come in.
287
00:14:22.050 --> 00:14:23.220
Yeah, something like that.
288
00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:25.920
And I'm, it's been so long actually, right,
289
00:14:25.920 --> 00:14:27.330
since I've been in the dark room
290
00:14:27.330 --> 00:14:29.730
and that I've used that kind of technique.
291
00:14:29.730 --> 00:14:32.070
But yes, one developer,
292
00:14:32.070 --> 00:14:34.280
which was a lower contrast developer,
293
00:14:34.280 --> 00:14:36.690
and I'm not sure if it was the way you
294
00:14:36.690 --> 00:14:37.890
said or-
The other way around-
295
00:14:37.890 --> 00:14:41.370
Opposite, so that we, I started out mm,
296
00:14:41.370 --> 00:14:42.779
That could have been doing the lower contrast developer
297
00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:47.779
so that we, I would know that I was going to get
298
00:14:48.810 --> 00:14:51.540
the highlights brought in without having
299
00:14:51.540 --> 00:14:52.620
burned out highlights.
300
00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:56.100
And then from there, drop it into
301
00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:58.410
a more high contrast developer that would,
302
00:14:58.410 --> 00:15:00.750
because what happens in a higher contrast developer,
303
00:15:00.750 --> 00:15:04.809
of course, is it works on the darkest areas first.
304
00:15:04.809 --> 00:15:07.110
And the longer you leave it in, the more,
305
00:15:07.110 --> 00:15:10.020
the more they drop down the,
306
00:15:10.020 --> 00:15:14.070
and then the higher, the lighter tones come in later.
307
00:15:14.070 --> 00:15:19.070
So I tried to find some balance there between the exposure,
308
00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:20.820
the kinds of developers,
309
00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:24.000
and the amount of time that the paper
310
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:25.710
was left in the developer.
311
00:15:25.710 --> 00:15:27.240
I guess I'm smiling now
312
00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.280
because I'm thinking about the level
313
00:15:29.280 --> 00:15:33.120
of artifice in any book or exhibition.
314
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.600
And here you have a woman who, I don't know, made 80,000,
315
00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:38.681
I can't remember the number,
316
00:15:38.681 --> 00:15:40.452
but she made a lot of photographs in her lifetime.
317
00:15:40.452 --> 00:15:45.060
We went in and chose a hundred extraordinary images.
318
00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:48.870
You went in and made these prints that look,
319
00:15:48.870 --> 00:15:51.270
they are master prints,
320
00:15:51.270 --> 00:15:56.270
and in a way we, she realized her vision through our
321
00:15:56.295 --> 00:15:59.970
interpretation, yours as a printer,
322
00:15:59.970 --> 00:16:02.310
mine and Margaret's as editors.
323
00:16:02.310 --> 00:16:04.470
And I bring that up, I think
324
00:16:04.470 --> 00:16:06.657
because one sees a book like this
325
00:16:06.657 --> 00:16:08.790
and one imagines in a body of work,
326
00:16:08.790 --> 00:16:12.270
one imagines a photographer with a particular vision.
327
00:16:12.270 --> 00:16:16.860
And I see this as more like a film
328
00:16:16.860 --> 00:16:20.250
that she shot over a lifetime.
329
00:16:20.250 --> 00:16:22.680
And then we came in as editors
330
00:16:22.680 --> 00:16:25.860
and really helped her realize that vision.
331
00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:27.068
Yeah.
332
00:16:27.068 --> 00:16:28.795
To show the work in a beautiful way so
333
00:16:28.795 --> 00:16:31.120
that it wouldn't just be
334
00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:36.330
lost in some file cabinet somewhere.
335
00:16:36.330 --> 00:16:38.490
It is interesting though that there, you know, there's a,
336
00:16:38.490 --> 00:16:42.600
there was another, there fine art photographer in,
337
00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:44.403
in San Cristobal de las Casas.
338
00:16:46.366 --> 00:16:47.623
Well, actually there was a couple,
339
00:16:47.623 --> 00:16:48.572
but the one I'm thinking of is Marcy Jacobson,
340
00:16:48.572 --> 00:16:50.370
an older Jewish woman from New York who had moved
341
00:16:50.370 --> 00:16:52.200
to San Cristobal in the '50's
342
00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.680
and was also very involved in shooting what amounts
343
00:16:55.680 --> 00:16:59.370
to documentary photography at the time.
344
00:16:59.370 --> 00:17:02.310
She had maybe a little bit more bent towards an artistic
345
00:17:02.310 --> 00:17:05.370
vision of her work, but,
346
00:17:05.370 --> 00:17:08.140
and she worked very hard to achieve
347
00:17:09.076 --> 00:17:11.490
beautiful prints in her own dark room.
348
00:17:11.490 --> 00:17:15.720
She was very interested in the technical process herself.
349
00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:20.220
But when it came to making her book finally in the end,
350
00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:22.680
it fell apart in a way
351
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:27.680
because whoever was responsible for the publication
352
00:17:27.810 --> 00:17:29.820
and the overseeing, the printing
353
00:17:29.820 --> 00:17:32.400
of the book failed in the end.
354
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.510
And so somehow the work was kind of lost in a way.
355
00:17:36.510 --> 00:17:39.400
It wasn't represented in a way that would
356
00:17:40.899 --> 00:17:43.470
over, you know, live over time.
357
00:17:43.470 --> 00:17:45.090
And she was very disappointed by that.
358
00:17:45.090 --> 00:17:47.490
Right.
Which was, you know, really-
359
00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:48.360
Oh, I can imagine.
360
00:17:48.360 --> 00:17:50.250
I don't know if you ever saw that book.
361
00:17:50.250 --> 00:17:51.580
No.
But they, Trudi
362
00:17:52.447 --> 00:17:54.720
and Marcy were kind of competitors in a way
363
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:56.160
over the years there.
364
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.627
But I feel like we also, we managed to do something
365
00:17:59.627 --> 00:18:04.627
really beautiful with her work, make a wonderful selection,
366
00:18:04.684 --> 00:18:08.400
and then take it all the way through to
367
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:09.990
making the exhibition prints
368
00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:12.619
and finally publishing a book, which is
369
00:18:12.619 --> 00:18:16.110
what really is gonna live on and be seen by more people.
370
00:18:16.110 --> 00:18:18.570
You know, sitting here with you, I'm thinking
371
00:18:18.570 --> 00:18:21.630
that we could spend the next 30 minutes talking about prints
372
00:18:21.630 --> 00:18:24.300
and printing, and I do wanna get back to that
373
00:18:24.300 --> 00:18:27.450
because that's what's sitting in front of us
374
00:18:27.450 --> 00:18:30.343
and your achievement in making these prints.
375
00:18:30.343 --> 00:18:34.027
I'm just thrilled that this body of work
376
00:18:34.027 --> 00:18:38.016
is not in some humid environment somewhere in Mexico
377
00:18:38.016 --> 00:18:41.167
or wherever in the world, or being dispersed
378
00:18:41.167 --> 00:18:43.140
and sold that it's here, it's intact.
379
00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:47.283
And as a photographer myself, the ultimate
380
00:18:47.283 --> 00:18:50.190
realization of my work
381
00:18:50.190 --> 00:18:52.770
and of any work has, from my point of view,
382
00:18:52.770 --> 00:18:54.450
is the photographic print.
383
00:18:54.450 --> 00:18:58.320
And so this is, this is an amazing collection,
384
00:18:58.320 --> 00:19:01.080
but that's a preface to saying that I, I find myself wanting
385
00:19:01.080 --> 00:19:04.863
to talk about Trudi, Gertrude Blom as a woman, as a person.
386
00:19:04.863 --> 00:19:06.930
And I'm thinking about the way in which
387
00:19:06.930 --> 00:19:11.770
certain people I've known over a lifetime
388
00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:18.980
have personalities, have a private life that's quite
389
00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:24.380
distinct from their voice and their work.
390
00:19:24.690 --> 00:19:27.660
And there was something that drew you
391
00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:29.640
and Joan to Trudi from the beginning
392
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.340
and something that drew me to her.
393
00:19:32.463 --> 00:19:33.540
Maybe you could talk about that a little bit
394
00:19:33.540 --> 00:19:35.940
and then maybe we can talk about the other side.
395
00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:39.300
Trudi was a difficult person.
396
00:19:39.300 --> 00:19:44.130
I mean, people were attracted to her, who just initially,
397
00:19:44.130 --> 00:19:49.130
because she presented such a dramatic public presence,
398
00:19:51.300 --> 00:19:53.703
she was an unusual looking person.
399
00:19:55.050 --> 00:19:57.573
She was an eccentric in many ways.
400
00:19:58.470 --> 00:20:01.680
She lived her whole life as an eccentric.
401
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:04.280
So that came out immediately as soon as you met her.
402
00:20:07.290 --> 00:20:12.123
But she had a hard time with people, I think,
403
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:17.070
was difficult for many of us.
404
00:20:17.070 --> 00:20:20.200
The young people who came to work with her, to put up with
405
00:20:22.011 --> 00:20:23.550
this kind of character that she had,
406
00:20:23.550 --> 00:20:28.550
which was extremely demanding, very judgmental.
407
00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:31.900
I mean, I can use a lot of adjectives to describe her
408
00:20:33.033 --> 00:20:36.600
in her way that she related to all of us.
409
00:20:36.600 --> 00:20:40.230
And then she had her public persona too, which was also very
410
00:20:40.230 --> 00:20:42.003
forceful and dynamic.
411
00:20:42.966 --> 00:20:47.966
And that's where people oftentimes who didn't know her
412
00:20:48.540 --> 00:20:51.570
initially became attracted to her was through her activism.
413
00:20:51.570 --> 00:20:54.330
Because in her later life, especially in the years
414
00:20:54.330 --> 00:20:57.600
after we arrived, what she was really interested
415
00:20:57.600 --> 00:21:01.470
in was environmentalism.
416
00:21:01.470 --> 00:21:04.470
She had become a real advocate for
417
00:21:04.470 --> 00:21:07.110
saving the tropical rainforest, one of the very,
418
00:21:07.110 --> 00:21:09.030
very strong voices.
419
00:21:09.030 --> 00:21:12.330
And so a lot of us, as young people, a lot
420
00:21:12.330 --> 00:21:14.010
of people were attracted to her for that reason.
421
00:21:14.010 --> 00:21:17.246
That's not why Joan and I showed up in Na Bolom.
422
00:21:17.246 --> 00:21:21.466
We came because of the wanting to be in Mexico
423
00:21:21.466 --> 00:21:25.650
and wanting to find a place where we could live and work
424
00:21:25.650 --> 00:21:27.150
and learn to speak Spanish,
425
00:21:27.150 --> 00:21:30.390
but also for me to be involved in photography,
426
00:21:30.390 --> 00:21:32.310
to continue my printmaking work
427
00:21:32.310 --> 00:21:34.740
and to continue my work as a photographer
428
00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:37.102
and have some space to do that.
429
00:21:37.102 --> 00:21:40.953
But Trudi became just a very important part of our lives.
430
00:21:41.951 --> 00:21:44.598
She was our family for many years.
431
00:21:44.598 --> 00:21:48.966
But as with a lot of family members, you struggle.
432
00:21:48.966 --> 00:21:53.400
You love them and you, and you hate them sometimes
433
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:54.971
and vice versa.
434
00:21:54.971 --> 00:21:59.080
But you always seem to be able to come back to that place
435
00:22:00.481 --> 00:22:02.670
where you, you find what it is
436
00:22:02.670 --> 00:22:05.073
that you care about.
437
00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:09.390
So, I mean, what, what do you remember?
438
00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:14.390
I mean, you must remember also her difficult nature.
439
00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:19.950
Well, you know, in some ways I hesitate to talk about this
440
00:22:19.950 --> 00:22:23.760
because I think the point I really wanna make is that
441
00:22:23.760 --> 00:22:28.300
I feel like there is an essential intuitive
442
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:33.870
side to her work that connects with the best part of her.
443
00:22:33.870 --> 00:22:36.870
And that that's what we were able to bring out.
444
00:22:36.870 --> 00:22:41.430
It's like she said in one of our interviews,
445
00:22:41.430 --> 00:22:45.750
Orchan Keen said about her, her heart is good.
446
00:22:45.750 --> 00:22:48.660
There's a, at some level, at which she was really trying
447
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:51.100
to do something important and good.
448
00:22:51.100 --> 00:22:52.350
And I think-
449
00:22:52.350 --> 00:22:53.670
Well always.
Yeah.
450
00:22:53.670 --> 00:22:57.720
I mean, she was always working for some greater good.
451
00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:00.510
In Europe, it was the anti-fascist movement,
452
00:23:00.510 --> 00:23:03.090
you know, as a young leader
453
00:23:03.090 --> 00:23:06.060
of the women's socialist movement in Europe when
454
00:23:06.060 --> 00:23:07.410
she was still a teenager.
455
00:23:07.410 --> 00:23:10.057
I mean, she spent her time
456
00:23:10.057 --> 00:23:14.130
since the very earliest years struggling against
457
00:23:14.130 --> 00:23:18.720
what she saw as wrong in the world.
458
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.810
So however that actually happened, there are many stories
459
00:23:21.810 --> 00:23:24.240
that have been told, that was the thrust of her life.
460
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.940
So wherever she went, she was trying
461
00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:28.683
to do something like that.
462
00:23:29.850 --> 00:23:31.100
So I-
And I think it
463
00:23:32.323 --> 00:23:33.750
comes out in the photographs and in the book,
464
00:23:33.750 --> 00:23:36.780
because you, you know, you do have the essays
465
00:23:36.780 --> 00:23:38.730
that were written about who she is
466
00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:39.930
and what she was trying to do.
467
00:23:39.930 --> 00:23:40.763
Yes.
468
00:23:41.670 --> 00:23:45.690
But I guess I'm just struck by
469
00:23:45.690 --> 00:23:50.690
her very difficult personality.
470
00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:53.160
She treated me and Margaret well,
471
00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.170
she treated me maybe better than Margaret,
472
00:23:55.170 --> 00:23:59.970
but she was, she was very happy to have the attention.
473
00:23:59.970 --> 00:24:03.840
She was very happy to tell her story
474
00:24:03.840 --> 00:24:06.471
and have us focused on her work.
475
00:24:06.471 --> 00:24:10.590
And I think that, you know, there's a way in which,
476
00:24:10.590 --> 00:24:13.530
where I was in my life, where you were in yours and Margaret
477
00:24:13.530 --> 00:24:18.000
and Joan, we were prepared to deal
478
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.850
with someone like that because we really believed
479
00:24:20.850 --> 00:24:22.710
in the project and in the work.
480
00:24:22.710 --> 00:24:23.543
Oh yeah.
481
00:24:24.630 --> 00:24:27.720
Well, it, it became clear to me after just a year
482
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.480
or so in Na Bolom that my work was gonna be about trying
483
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:35.343
to bring her work more to a broader public.
484
00:24:36.390 --> 00:24:40.920
So, and we were lucky enough to be able to do that
485
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.020
through contacts with all kinds of people.
486
00:24:44.970 --> 00:24:48.180
And you know, to this day, actually, I still am involved
487
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:49.380
with this in one way or another.
488
00:24:49.380 --> 00:24:53.430
We just got back from New York where there's a show
489
00:24:53.430 --> 00:24:56.700
of Trudi's photographs at the Girls' Club on the lower
490
00:24:56.700 --> 00:24:58.560
east side of Manhattan.
491
00:24:58.560 --> 00:25:03.420
So we had a, you know, we had a panel discussing Trudi
492
00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:07.413
and her work, and there must have been, I don't know,
493
00:25:08.482 --> 00:25:11.760
maybe 40 prints, digital prints
494
00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:16.760
that have been made in recent years, which were in the show.
495
00:25:17.190 --> 00:25:18.150
So it continues.
496
00:25:18.150 --> 00:25:22.470
I mean, there's this, Na Bolom still continues to try to,
497
00:25:22.470 --> 00:25:26.610
you know, put her work out there and have it be seen.
498
00:25:26.610 --> 00:25:30.840
So again, in New York at this stage, which is interesting.
499
00:25:30.840 --> 00:25:32.100
I want to talk with you about
500
00:25:32.100 --> 00:25:35.610
that digital versus scanning negatives
501
00:25:35.610 --> 00:25:38.934
and printing them versus the way you worked
502
00:25:38.934 --> 00:25:39.927
in the dark room.
503
00:25:39.927 --> 00:25:42.298
But I guess I just want to go on record for
504
00:25:42.298 --> 00:25:47.040
the fact that you flew up from Mexico
505
00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:48.690
with all the negatives.
506
00:25:48.690 --> 00:25:51.270
You stayed at our house for a couple of months.
507
00:25:51.270 --> 00:25:53.610
We had a dark room upstairs,
508
00:25:53.610 --> 00:25:58.200
and I remember you toiling away up there during the day.
509
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.780
But what was great was at the end of the day,
510
00:26:00.780 --> 00:26:03.750
you had these prints in the washer
511
00:26:03.750 --> 00:26:06.660
and we'd put them on the drying rack,
512
00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:10.798
and the next morning we'd see what the dry down factor was.
513
00:26:10.798 --> 00:26:12.455
Right.
'Cause they looked great
514
00:26:12.455 --> 00:26:13.405
in the water.
515
00:26:13.405 --> 00:26:14.640
They would dry down. You had to, you had to compensate.
516
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:18.120
But we were all part of this process, I think, in the sense
517
00:26:18.120 --> 00:26:20.490
that we were responding to what you were doing.
518
00:26:20.490 --> 00:26:23.854
You were here to do this particular job.
519
00:26:23.854 --> 00:26:28.290
And we talked earlier off mic about the tonality
520
00:26:28.290 --> 00:26:30.120
of these prints, which is really unique.
521
00:26:30.120 --> 00:26:33.570
It looks like what people used
522
00:26:33.570 --> 00:26:35.580
to call gold toning,
523
00:26:35.580 --> 00:26:37.530
but in fact, it's,
524
00:26:37.530 --> 00:26:40.694
these are silver prints on Portriga Rapid Paper
525
00:26:40.694 --> 00:26:42.940
with selenium toning
526
00:26:43.950 --> 00:26:47.250
and the very hard water we had at our house.
527
00:26:47.250 --> 00:26:48.990
There was iron in the water somehow
528
00:26:48.990 --> 00:26:50.113
that all combined to give it-
529
00:26:50.113 --> 00:26:52.620
To give it a special tonality.
530
00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:54.030
Yeah.
531
00:26:54.030 --> 00:26:56.340
A kind of a warmness to it.
532
00:26:56.340 --> 00:26:57.600
Right.
533
00:26:57.600 --> 00:27:00.930
Which is what you had used also in your exhibition.
534
00:27:00.930 --> 00:27:02.190
Yeah, and I loved it.
535
00:27:02.190 --> 00:27:05.338
I mean, I had been using a more cold tone paper
536
00:27:05.338 --> 00:27:07.320
for Trudi's prints in Mexico,
537
00:27:07.320 --> 00:27:08.850
which was kind of the standard.
538
00:27:08.850 --> 00:27:11.310
I mean, I think for a lot of people
539
00:27:11.310 --> 00:27:15.697
that were doing exhibition prints, that kind of cold tone
540
00:27:16.950 --> 00:27:21.630
Ilford Galerie you know, sort of with selenium toner,
541
00:27:21.630 --> 00:27:25.680
which made it even a little colder still.
542
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:30.330
But this was a, a new twist to
543
00:27:30.330 --> 00:27:32.253
printing her work, which I love.
544
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:36.150
Well, there's a, there's a generation now,
545
00:27:36.150 --> 00:27:38.700
and it'll probably go on for a long time
546
00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:40.380
because of places like the Rubenstein
547
00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:44.200
that's gonna have these negatives that's taking these
548
00:27:45.060 --> 00:27:48.339
silver negatives and scanning them,
549
00:27:48.339 --> 00:27:50.639
and which is what you do for a living in your,
550
00:27:51.628 --> 00:27:53.016
with your own work.
Yeah.
551
00:27:53.016 --> 00:27:53.880
And I wondered if you've ever printed any
552
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:57.870
of these images digitally in that way, where you scan
553
00:27:57.870 --> 00:27:59.596
with a high resolution scanner
554
00:27:59.596 --> 00:28:03.720
and use Photoshop to adjust it and then print digitally.
555
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.310
Very little of Trudi's work.
556
00:28:05.310 --> 00:28:07.050
I haven't really had the opportunity
557
00:28:07.050 --> 00:28:09.831
to do any scanning myself.
558
00:28:09.831 --> 00:28:12.037
And I think the, the art today
559
00:28:12.037 --> 00:28:15.930
is in the scan to begin with.
560
00:28:15.930 --> 00:28:19.230
So I mean, if you're gonna do a digital reproduction from
561
00:28:19.230 --> 00:28:20.250
black and white negative
562
00:28:20.250 --> 00:28:24.543
or color negative, you want that original scan to be,
563
00:28:25.990 --> 00:28:30.660
to hold as much information as you possibly can and to,
564
00:28:30.660 --> 00:28:34.009
and make some adjustments in the scanning
565
00:28:34.009 --> 00:28:38.700
that will improve your ability to make the print.
566
00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:42.750
So, you know, for my own work, for my own black
567
00:28:42.750 --> 00:28:46.742
and white photography, yes, I've been able to go back
568
00:28:46.742 --> 00:28:50.790
and scan negatives that I've printed in the dark room
569
00:28:50.790 --> 00:28:55.312
as silver prints and do them again as digital prints.
570
00:28:55.312 --> 00:28:59.812
And it's pretty amazing what you can do
571
00:28:59.812 --> 00:29:03.749
in digitizing film.
572
00:29:03.749 --> 00:29:07.274
This is like using this opportunity of to
573
00:29:07.274 --> 00:29:09.990
proselytize a little bit for digital printing.
574
00:29:09.990 --> 00:29:13.860
But I, I have to say that I've reprinted images of mine
575
00:29:13.860 --> 00:29:15.300
that I printed in this same manner
576
00:29:15.300 --> 00:29:17.280
that were in an ICP show-
Right.
577
00:29:17.280 --> 00:29:18.750
Digitally now.
578
00:29:18.750 --> 00:29:20.850
And I think the digital print is actually
579
00:29:20.850 --> 00:29:23.670
better because I've been able to just bring out
580
00:29:23.670 --> 00:29:25.920
so many qualities in the negative
581
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.520
that were hidden there in Photoshop.
582
00:29:29.520 --> 00:29:32.610
And then the papers and inks are wonderful now.
583
00:29:32.610 --> 00:29:34.601
So I'm not saying it's always,
584
00:29:34.601 --> 00:29:35.434
I think it can be as good or better.
585
00:29:35.434 --> 00:29:37.320
Well, it gives you tools that you just
586
00:29:37.320 --> 00:29:39.085
didn't have in the dark room.
587
00:29:39.085 --> 00:29:41.940
I mean, we tried to develop tools in the dark room
588
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:46.940
that allowed us to achieve as much as we could.
589
00:29:47.370 --> 00:29:48.600
Some people use dodging
590
00:29:48.600 --> 00:29:51.660
and burning, some people use the kinds of techniques
591
00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:55.350
that I used with different developers and time and exposure
592
00:29:55.350 --> 00:29:59.610
and all of that to achieve the range of tones
593
00:29:59.610 --> 00:30:02.190
that we were looking for, the relationship of tones.
594
00:30:02.190 --> 00:30:07.190
But Photoshop and digital manipulation
595
00:30:07.290 --> 00:30:10.620
of images just gives you many more tools.
596
00:30:10.620 --> 00:30:12.030
And then speaking about dodging
597
00:30:12.030 --> 00:30:15.390
and burning, of course, when you're dodging under an
598
00:30:15.390 --> 00:30:20.040
enlarger, all the light that you allow to fall
599
00:30:20.040 --> 00:30:23.996
through your hands or through a cut in a piece of paper
600
00:30:23.996 --> 00:30:28.996
hit or if you're burning, they're all
601
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.240
burning light and dark.
602
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:37.350
But in Photoshop you can select a range of tones
603
00:30:37.350 --> 00:30:40.170
that you burn and it won't burn anything else,
604
00:30:40.170 --> 00:30:43.718
even though you touch those other tones with your burn.
605
00:30:43.718 --> 00:30:44.910
So that's something
606
00:30:44.910 --> 00:30:48.420
that just couldn't be done at all in the dark room
607
00:30:48.420 --> 00:30:50.640
with the process of dodging and burning.
608
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:53.430
So you can select shadows, mid tones or highlights
609
00:30:53.430 --> 00:30:56.703
and only burn or dodge those areas.
610
00:30:57.930 --> 00:31:00.270
I'm thinking we should take a break and look at the prints
611
00:31:00.270 --> 00:31:02.613
and then come back.
612
00:31:04.256 --> 00:31:05.998
I have a question.
Yes.
613
00:31:05.998 --> 00:31:06.831
Can you, do you mind?
614
00:31:06.831 --> 00:31:07.664
Not at all, please.
No.
615
00:31:07.664 --> 00:31:11.910
Can you unpack, like you just said,
616
00:31:11.910 --> 00:31:13.470
the art today is in the scan.
617
00:31:13.470 --> 00:31:16.050
Can you unpack what you mean?
618
00:31:16.050 --> 00:31:18.800
Like what are you doing in the scanning process that is
619
00:31:19.800 --> 00:31:22.683
giving you a scan that's like,
620
00:31:24.450 --> 00:31:27.276
that you want to work with in the first place?
621
00:31:27.276 --> 00:31:28.950
Well, you can, you know,
622
00:31:28.950 --> 00:31:30.690
you can do just a straight scan.
623
00:31:30.690 --> 00:31:34.620
And so you, you know, you do a pre-scan and you pull it up
624
00:31:34.620 --> 00:31:37.457
and you have a histogram that you, you're looking at
625
00:31:37.457 --> 00:31:40.170
that shows that you're not clipping anything on the,
626
00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:42.360
on the top end or the bottom end.
627
00:31:42.360 --> 00:31:45.030
And you've got basically all the information there.
628
00:31:45.030 --> 00:31:46.650
Today there's a lot, I mean, there,
629
00:31:46.650 --> 00:31:49.497
scanning technology is changing all the time.
630
00:31:49.497 --> 00:31:51.870
And the software that control scanning is changing.
631
00:31:51.870 --> 00:31:54.300
And there's different ways, there's different software
632
00:31:54.300 --> 00:31:56.903
that allows you to do different things.
633
00:31:56.903 --> 00:31:59.280
You can do HDR scanning, you can do all kinds of stuff.
634
00:31:59.280 --> 00:32:02.100
But in looking at a negative that let's say has some,
635
00:32:02.100 --> 00:32:07.100
is has a, is very contrasty, some very dense highlights
636
00:32:07.260 --> 00:32:09.900
and some very thin shadows.
637
00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:12.150
There is detail in both areas,
638
00:32:12.150 --> 00:32:16.411
but you're trying to, you're trying
639
00:32:16.411 --> 00:32:19.260
to bring out the detail in both areas.
640
00:32:19.260 --> 00:32:22.342
And so in the scan you can do a lot of that
641
00:32:22.342 --> 00:32:26.063
before you actually then go from there to work with that
642
00:32:26.063 --> 00:32:28.590
and turn it into a print.
643
00:32:28.590 --> 00:32:32.730
So you can open up the shadows in a way that you wouldn't-
644
00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:34.260
This is color and black and white
645
00:32:34.260 --> 00:32:35.760
you're talking about.
Color and black and white.
646
00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:37.226
But I'm particularly thinking of black and white-
647
00:32:37.226 --> 00:32:39.810
Right.
Because in black and white,
648
00:32:39.810 --> 00:32:43.200
everything is about the range of tones
649
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:44.220
from dark to light.
650
00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:47.070
So that's what the whole image is about.
651
00:32:47.070 --> 00:32:49.860
Color is different in that you can see
652
00:32:49.860 --> 00:32:53.940
detail based on the juxtaposition of different colors,
653
00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:56.790
but in black and white, it's all about the relationship
654
00:32:56.790 --> 00:33:01.274
of tones and how well you can see things happening,
655
00:33:01.274 --> 00:33:04.560
how long of a tonal range you have.
656
00:33:04.560 --> 00:33:07.290
And so you can, beginning with the scan,
657
00:33:07.290 --> 00:33:09.635
you can do a lot of the work there.
658
00:33:09.635 --> 00:33:13.470
The better job of scanning you do,
659
00:33:13.470 --> 00:33:16.860
the better final result you'll get in the print.
660
00:33:16.860 --> 00:33:19.443
So, and there's a lot that you can do.
661
00:33:20.310 --> 00:33:24.720
I, and I'm no great expert on all of this,
662
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:29.100
but you know, I found it, I found that I'm able to do things
663
00:33:29.100 --> 00:33:31.923
that I was not able to do in the dark room.
664
00:33:32.760 --> 00:33:34.200
The thing that that strikes me
665
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:35.760
as you're talking is this idea
666
00:33:35.760 --> 00:33:38.430
of the Ansel Adams zone system
667
00:33:38.430 --> 00:33:43.410
and the fact that certain information in the world in terms
668
00:33:43.410 --> 00:33:48.000
of the amount of light reflecting on it, is beyond the range
669
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:51.810
of that particular piece of film to capture
670
00:33:51.810 --> 00:33:54.960
unless you do certain things in the exposure
671
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:56.850
and the processing so that you bring all
672
00:33:56.850 --> 00:33:59.880
that information into a certain number of zones.
673
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:04.110
And that's really, I think, what's happening in scanning,
674
00:34:04.110 --> 00:34:05.490
what you're attempting in scanning.
675
00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:08.310
And then it's similar to what happens in camera RAW,
676
00:34:08.310 --> 00:34:11.160
where you see there's information in the highlights
677
00:34:11.160 --> 00:34:13.620
and information in the shadows that's lost
678
00:34:13.620 --> 00:34:15.870
unless you bring those in.
679
00:34:15.870 --> 00:34:17.430
And when you open it up in Photoshop,
680
00:34:17.430 --> 00:34:19.290
you've essentially done what Adams was trying
681
00:34:19.290 --> 00:34:21.341
to tell you to do with a negative.
682
00:34:21.341 --> 00:34:22.440
Sure, and I was very much inspired
683
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:24.619
by the whole zone system-
As bizarre-
684
00:34:24.619 --> 00:34:27.390
Mostly people thought of the zone system
685
00:34:27.390 --> 00:34:30.360
as a technique that that had to do with the exposure
686
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:32.250
and development of film.
Right.
687
00:34:32.250 --> 00:34:34.170
And that's kind of what I'm talking about here in
688
00:34:34.170 --> 00:34:37.320
that you're trying to do that with the negative.
689
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:39.630
So I'm trying to apply the zone system in a way
690
00:34:39.630 --> 00:34:42.030
to the negatives in getting the scan.
691
00:34:42.030 --> 00:34:43.200
Like that's the first step.
692
00:34:43.200 --> 00:34:46.798
It's getting the digital negative is the scan.
693
00:34:46.798 --> 00:34:49.560
And then from there, but when I was,
694
00:34:49.560 --> 00:34:51.600
but when I was working as a printer, I was trying
695
00:34:51.600 --> 00:34:55.860
to apply those same ideas to the printmaking process
696
00:34:55.860 --> 00:35:00.060
in terms of finding the right exposure
697
00:35:00.060 --> 00:35:01.653
and the right development-
698
00:35:02.958 --> 00:35:03.791
In the dark room.
In the dark room
699
00:35:03.791 --> 00:35:05.820
for the paper print.
700
00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:10.650
So it might be that you needed a longer
701
00:35:10.650 --> 00:35:15.650
exposure under the enlarger to be able
702
00:35:16.020 --> 00:35:21.020
to get those highlights to contain detail,
703
00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:25.500
but then that might require a much shorter development time.
704
00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:29.155
So it's kind of like what you would do in a,
705
00:35:29.155 --> 00:35:32.162
With a, with a
Negative, with a negative
706
00:35:32.162 --> 00:35:33.111
when you're shooting it,
707
00:35:33.111 --> 00:35:35.070
you might you know, overexpose and under develop
708
00:35:35.070 --> 00:35:38.113
or underexpose and overdevelop,
709
00:35:38.113 --> 00:35:41.100
which did two kind of opposite things.
710
00:35:41.100 --> 00:35:43.830
One of them compresses the range of tones
711
00:35:43.830 --> 00:35:45.633
and the other pulls it apart.
712
00:35:46.530 --> 00:35:48.780
But there's limitations there, of course.
713
00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:52.800
And even Ansel Adams in his life as a printer, you'll see,
714
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:56.433
if you look at his history of printing certain images,
715
00:35:57.417 --> 00:35:58.250
the one that I always bring
716
00:35:58.250 --> 00:36:00.780
to mind is "Moonrise over Hernandez New Mexico",
717
00:36:00.780 --> 00:36:04.260
Hernandez's, New Mexico, that the early prints of
718
00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:07.950
that are very light by comparison to the much later prints.
719
00:36:07.950 --> 00:36:11.313
So whatever he thought he was doing with the zone system,
720
00:36:14.498 --> 00:36:16.920
he just did what pleased him aesthetically in the end.
721
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:19.260
And I think this really is a lot of the answer
722
00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:22.830
to Kathy's question, which is that there is a,
723
00:36:22.830 --> 00:36:25.980
there's a technical, there's a capability now
724
00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:28.860
of the equipment and the software
725
00:36:28.860 --> 00:36:30.960
that allows you to do certain things.
726
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:34.920
But it's really no different than years ago
727
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:36.690
before those tools existed
728
00:36:36.690 --> 00:36:39.663
of using your experience, your intuition.
729
00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:43.420
I laugh at the idea that
730
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.500
digital prints are always the same.
731
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:48.840
And so, you know, you can just push a button.
732
00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:51.870
Every time I make a digital print of an image I've printed
733
00:36:51.870 --> 00:36:54.390
before I'm looking at it, I'm thinking, well,
734
00:36:54.390 --> 00:36:56.070
I think I made a little bit of a mistake-
735
00:36:56.070 --> 00:36:56.903
Totally.
I think I'll change
736
00:36:56.903 --> 00:36:57.736
it this way.
Sure.
737
00:36:57.736 --> 00:36:59.760
All my, all those prints are different.
738
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:00.690
Exactly.
739
00:37:00.690 --> 00:37:02.220
You might come up with something
740
00:37:02.220 --> 00:37:05.520
that is very satisfying and save it in that form,
741
00:37:05.520 --> 00:37:06.353
but you might come back to it later
742
00:37:06.353 --> 00:37:08.640
like Ansel Adams did and say, you know what?
743
00:37:08.640 --> 00:37:11.880
I really want this to be a little bit different.
744
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:15.360
I really want to change the relationship of these values.
745
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:18.045
And, and that's what we do as
746
00:37:18.045 --> 00:37:20.697
artist, photographers.
What I noticed is I
747
00:37:23.310 --> 00:37:26.400
see young people now, students,
748
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.430
who are very facile in Photoshop.
749
00:37:29.430 --> 00:37:33.120
They, I'll go in and I'll be teaching certain tools
750
00:37:33.120 --> 00:37:35.280
and they'll say, well, you can do it this way or that way.
751
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:37.920
And they'll have other ways to do it that I'll never,
752
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.170
I'm not, I'm probably not gonna go there,
753
00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:44.556
but I think we are of a generation that spans light
754
00:37:44.556 --> 00:37:48.390
falling on film, film in the, processing that film,
755
00:37:48.390 --> 00:37:50.820
film in the enlarger, thinking about photography in
756
00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:54.116
that way, and then translating those sensibilities to
757
00:37:54.116 --> 00:37:58.200
now to digital printing.
758
00:37:58.200 --> 00:37:59.430
But I bring it up mostly
759
00:37:59.430 --> 00:38:02.550
because the sensibilities that you used
760
00:38:02.550 --> 00:38:05.820
to do this weren't purely looking at some book
761
00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:07.980
and following Ansel Adams' zone system.
762
00:38:07.980 --> 00:38:11.880
This is really an aesthetic personal achievement.
763
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.970
And I think the same way that a, a writer has
764
00:38:14.970 --> 00:38:16.802
a particular consistent voice,
765
00:38:16.802 --> 00:38:19.951
a consistent way of seeing things.
766
00:38:19.951 --> 00:38:24.330
So you believe in that voice and you can kind of relax
767
00:38:24.330 --> 00:38:25.410
and listen to it.
768
00:38:25.410 --> 00:38:28.353
That's what, that's the way I feel about these prints.
769
00:38:31.050 --> 00:38:32.460
Let's take a little break
770
00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:35.330
and then we'll look at some prints and come back.
771
00:38:35.330 --> 00:38:36.773
Okay. Sip of coffee,
Sip of coffee.
772
00:38:50.448 --> 00:38:53.400
Being in the rivers and sitting on the ground
773
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:54.603
or sitting on a box.
774
00:38:56.010 --> 00:38:58.230
Yeah.
It was a tough lady.
775
00:38:58.230 --> 00:39:01.710
Yeah, she was really, she was really tough. She did it.
776
00:39:01.710 --> 00:39:03.900
And then after that, very soon
777
00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:07.800
after that, by 86, 87, she was already beginning to decline.
778
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:10.600
And I don't think that she did any other horseback
779
00:39:11.556 --> 00:39:13.323
expeditions after 1986.
780
00:39:14.310 --> 00:39:16.350
Let's sit back down just for a few more minutes
781
00:39:16.350 --> 00:39:17.370
with these other mics.
782
00:39:17.370 --> 00:39:18.990
Let's see what time we've got here.
783
00:39:18.990 --> 00:39:21.180
We're sort of about out of time already, huh?
784
00:39:21.180 --> 00:39:23.900
No, but I want you to finish what, what you want to say.
785
00:39:23.900 --> 00:39:24.733
So.
786
00:39:24.733 --> 00:39:28.570
Maybe just five more minutes or so I'm gonna switch back.
787
00:39:28.570 --> 00:39:32.730
Yeah. Okay.
Barry, can you think of
788
00:39:32.730 --> 00:39:36.330
work or anything that you would want people to
789
00:39:36.330 --> 00:39:38.430
know about Trudi as a photographer?
790
00:39:38.430 --> 00:39:43.020
I mean, I think maybe one question I'll ask
791
00:39:43.020 --> 00:39:46.170
and then I'll, I'll let you think about that.
792
00:39:46.170 --> 00:39:49.230
Is the kind
793
00:39:49.230 --> 00:39:53.220
of photographer Trudi imagined herself to be, the purpose
794
00:39:53.220 --> 00:39:57.693
of her photography, how that may be changed over the years?
795
00:39:58.530 --> 00:40:02.850
Because my understanding is that she went in the jungle
796
00:40:02.850 --> 00:40:06.543
with her husband, Franz, who was an anthropologist, that she
797
00:40:06.543 --> 00:40:10.140
thought of this early on.
798
00:40:10.140 --> 00:40:13.293
Well, you, why don't you pick up from this first expedition?
799
00:40:13.293 --> 00:40:15.840
Like how did she evolve in terms
800
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:18.483
of thinking about herself as a photographer?
801
00:40:19.980 --> 00:40:21.600
You know, I, Trudi always said
802
00:40:21.600 --> 00:40:24.330
that she wasn't a photographer.
803
00:40:24.330 --> 00:40:29.330
That she didn't consider herself to be a really a,
804
00:40:29.370 --> 00:40:32.100
a technician of photography.
805
00:40:32.100 --> 00:40:33.630
She considered herself, I think,
806
00:40:33.630 --> 00:40:36.663
to be a photojournalist largely.
807
00:40:39.245 --> 00:40:41.700
She considered herself to be a journalist, a documentarian.
808
00:40:41.700 --> 00:40:46.700
She was somebody who used photography as a tool
809
00:40:46.770 --> 00:40:51.025
to show something to the world.
810
00:40:51.025 --> 00:40:55.260
And I'm not sure that that changed much when she became more
811
00:40:55.260 --> 00:40:57.180
recognized in a way as
812
00:40:57.180 --> 00:40:59.670
what might be considered a fine art photographer,
813
00:40:59.670 --> 00:41:02.073
where people were buying her original prints.
814
00:41:02.970 --> 00:41:07.410
She just spoke about her love
815
00:41:07.410 --> 00:41:11.190
of light, really.
816
00:41:11.190 --> 00:41:13.980
That was something that she brought up.
817
00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:16.890
It kind of mystified me
818
00:41:16.890 --> 00:41:21.146
because I never saw her in that way of like
819
00:41:21.146 --> 00:41:26.146
being someone who really considered the lighting
820
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:31.280
of a photograph in deciding what to do.
821
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:32.520
But she always said that.
822
00:41:32.520 --> 00:41:35.430
She said, oh, she, she loved to play with light,
823
00:41:35.430 --> 00:41:38.418
but I think she was just trying, grasping at a way
824
00:41:38.418 --> 00:41:43.222
to say something about her photography when people were
825
00:41:43.222 --> 00:41:46.929
demanding that she do that somehow.
826
00:41:46.929 --> 00:41:47.819
Do you know what I mean?
827
00:41:47.819 --> 00:41:48.655
I do.
828
00:41:48.655 --> 00:41:50.400
And Margaret and I spent, you know, a couple
829
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:52.290
of weeks asking her questions
830
00:41:52.290 --> 00:41:55.890
and trying to pull out what it meant
831
00:41:55.890 --> 00:41:57.000
for her to be a photographer.
832
00:41:57.000 --> 00:41:59.550
And she had a tough time talking about it.
833
00:41:59.550 --> 00:42:01.830
And often she would say, if she'd look at a picture,
834
00:42:01.830 --> 00:42:04.980
she'd say, I think about the person.
835
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:06.450
I don't think about the print,
836
00:42:06.450 --> 00:42:07.980
or I don't think about the photograph.
837
00:42:07.980 --> 00:42:09.360
I think about the person.
838
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:11.160
And then she said, I'm always
839
00:42:11.160 --> 00:42:13.080
frustrated by my photographs
840
00:42:13.080 --> 00:42:15.420
because it never comes out the way I want,
841
00:42:15.420 --> 00:42:18.420
or it never says everything I feel.
842
00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:19.740
Right.
843
00:42:19.740 --> 00:42:23.280
And I think that's common for all of us
844
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:26.100
as photographers or artists.
845
00:42:26.100 --> 00:42:28.200
There's always kind of a, there can be a sense
846
00:42:28.200 --> 00:42:30.582
of disappointment in the end that
847
00:42:30.582 --> 00:42:34.140
what we did didn't really achieve what we had hoped
848
00:42:34.140 --> 00:42:36.090
or what we envisioned somehow.
849
00:42:36.090 --> 00:42:38.640
But you and I, and I think so many other people
850
00:42:38.640 --> 00:42:41.190
who are different kind of photographer
851
00:42:41.190 --> 00:42:42.990
will look at a picture and will think, okay,
852
00:42:42.990 --> 00:42:45.210
this isn't maybe what I saw or felt,
853
00:42:45.210 --> 00:42:46.500
but this is something in
854
00:42:46.500 --> 00:42:48.540
and of itself that's,
855
00:42:48.540 --> 00:42:51.180
that's telling me something I didn't already know or see.
856
00:42:51.180 --> 00:42:52.980
And that there's value in that.
857
00:42:52.980 --> 00:42:54.540
I don't think Trudi went there.
858
00:42:54.540 --> 00:42:57.060
No, I don't think she really did either.
859
00:42:57.060 --> 00:43:00.120
She didn't really consider any of it very much.
860
00:43:00.120 --> 00:43:01.800
She just did it.
861
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:05.640
She just was a person that was always
862
00:43:05.640 --> 00:43:10.230
being impulsed to do the work that she did.
863
00:43:10.230 --> 00:43:14.753
She got up every day with a determination to do,
864
00:43:18.101 --> 00:43:22.590
and that went on until the end of her life pretty much.
865
00:43:22.590 --> 00:43:26.520
So, you know, we never really got the answers
866
00:43:26.520 --> 00:43:28.923
to these questions from Trudi.
867
00:43:30.510 --> 00:43:34.200
I guess I want to end this by just remembering
868
00:43:34.200 --> 00:43:38.460
what she said to me, and I put it at the end of my text,
869
00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:41.040
but I think it's really, it's the reason
870
00:43:41.040 --> 00:43:44.643
that people like us put up with people like Trudi is
871
00:43:44.643 --> 00:43:47.280
that it has to do with what you're saying right now.
872
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:51.300
That she had a kind of belief in what she was doing
873
00:43:51.300 --> 00:43:55.491
and despite and the cause that she was fighting for,
874
00:43:55.491 --> 00:44:00.120
despite her narcissism, despite her difficult personality,
875
00:44:00.120 --> 00:44:04.756
she basically said, I fought some of the great battles
876
00:44:04.756 --> 00:44:06.960
of the 20th century.
877
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:10.050
I fought against the Nazis and we lost that.
878
00:44:10.050 --> 00:44:12.780
I mean, she lost that her part of that battle.
879
00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:15.120
I fought to save the rainforest,
880
00:44:15.120 --> 00:44:18.240
and I think we're losing that,
881
00:44:18.240 --> 00:44:20.640
but you've got to keep fighting.
882
00:44:20.640 --> 00:44:21.780
Yeah.
And there was a way
883
00:44:21.780 --> 00:44:24.750
in which I think it's so easy now
884
00:44:24.750 --> 00:44:27.060
to think there's so many problems
885
00:44:27.060 --> 00:44:31.290
and how can I possibly, she was really a fighter.
886
00:44:31.290 --> 00:44:34.350
She was, but I don't really see her as a failure.
887
00:44:34.350 --> 00:44:37.353
I see that actually in the end,
888
00:44:38.191 --> 00:44:43.191
those fights will be successful, at least on some level.
889
00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:46.980
I think more and more people are realizing today in terms
890
00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:49.470
of the loss of the tropical rainforest,
891
00:44:49.470 --> 00:44:54.000
which was her last great fight, that it's something that
892
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:55.560
we need to address, that everyone
893
00:44:55.560 --> 00:44:56.790
in the world needs to address.
894
00:44:56.790 --> 00:44:58.350
And more and more, it's becoming something
895
00:44:58.350 --> 00:45:01.950
that people are aware of throughout the world, the danger
896
00:45:01.950 --> 00:45:05.130
that we face if we allow the remaining rainforest
897
00:45:05.130 --> 00:45:08.400
of the world to just be torn down.
898
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:12.900
So, you know, she was successful in her fights.
899
00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:15.660
She was, she'd not personally successful in her fight
900
00:45:15.660 --> 00:45:20.660
against Nazis, but the Nazis lost, they lost in the end.
901
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:25.890
And it's universally considered the greatest evil
902
00:45:25.890 --> 00:45:29.430
of our times, don't you think?
903
00:45:29.430 --> 00:45:30.780
Yes.
Pretty important.
904
00:45:31.680 --> 00:45:35.436
And yeah, she was, she was disappointed in many ways
905
00:45:35.436 --> 00:45:40.293
with her life, but she also had a lot of successes.
906
00:45:41.640 --> 00:45:42.473
She really did.
907
00:45:42.473 --> 00:45:44.460
And she was a loving person.
908
00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:48.540
As difficult as she was, we loved her and she loved us.
909
00:45:48.540 --> 00:45:51.660
And and she was able to communicate that.
910
00:45:51.660 --> 00:45:53.970
Yes.
As difficult as she was,
911
00:45:53.970 --> 00:45:55.560
as hard as, you know,
912
00:45:55.560 --> 00:45:59.400
as mean-spirited as she could be on many occasions,
913
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:02.610
she was always, she was a person who was always able to
914
00:46:02.610 --> 00:46:07.050
apologize and seek forgiveness.
915
00:46:07.050 --> 00:46:09.570
So, and there's a lot of people who can't do that,
916
00:46:09.570 --> 00:46:12.300
but Trudi could.
Yeah.
917
00:46:12.300 --> 00:46:13.233
So we loved her.
918
00:46:14.982 --> 00:46:19.260
I think that's a really appropriate place to end.
919
00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:23.280
And we really appreciate you being here today
920
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:25.500
and just giving us your perspective on Trudi
921
00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:29.010
and the prints in this collection.
922
00:46:29.010 --> 00:46:29.843
Thank you, Barry.
923
00:46:29.843 --> 00:46:31.280
Okay. Thanks for inviting me.