WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.460 --> 00:00:02.380 At one point when I found out 2 00:00:02.380 --> 00:00:04.370 what their interrogation methods were, 3 00:00:04.370 --> 00:00:06.570 you know, this fear up, and anxiety up, 4 00:00:06.570 --> 00:00:11.570 and and all that kind of crap, and worse, 5 00:00:12.810 --> 00:00:13.643 I said, well, 6 00:00:13.643 --> 00:00:15.470 there's no wonder you're not getting any information. 7 00:00:15.470 --> 00:00:19.530 You're hardening them against you and our clause. 8 00:00:19.530 --> 00:00:23.050 And the whole point of an interrogation 9 00:00:23.050 --> 00:00:24.860 is to try to win them over, 10 00:00:24.860 --> 00:00:27.650 to try to get them to understand your side 11 00:00:27.650 --> 00:00:29.450 as you understand them 12 00:00:29.450 --> 00:00:33.910 and then get them to work for you rather than against you. 13 00:00:33.910 --> 00:00:38.150 They've been trained, not only by a hard life, 14 00:00:38.150 --> 00:00:39.580 but by training camps 15 00:00:40.490 --> 00:00:44.050 in order to resist this kind of harsh treatment. 16 00:00:44.050 --> 00:00:46.070 And so when you treat them harshly, 17 00:00:46.070 --> 00:00:48.780 you reinforce that belief that we're the devil, 18 00:00:48.780 --> 00:00:49.720 that we're evil. 19 00:00:49.720 --> 00:00:53.830 And so you help them do what they're doing, resisting you. 20 00:00:53.830 --> 00:00:55.810 So it's really counterproductive. 21 00:00:55.810 --> 00:01:00.810 So I told them to let me have access to a detainee 22 00:01:01.230 --> 00:01:02.720 that wasn't cooperating at all. 23 00:01:02.720 --> 00:01:07.530 And they brought in detainee 682, 24 00:01:07.530 --> 00:01:12.530 and he was doing nothing but sitting mute 25 00:01:12.720 --> 00:01:15.590 during interrogations or reciting the Koran from memory. 26 00:01:15.590 --> 00:01:20.590 And I realized that, you know, 27 00:01:21.960 --> 00:01:23.410 this was gonna be a tough task. 28 00:01:23.410 --> 00:01:24.810 So I set out to do this. 29 00:01:24.810 --> 00:01:25.940 I met with him, 30 00:01:25.940 --> 00:01:28.830 I think maybe a dozen times over the next 21 days. 31 00:01:28.830 --> 00:01:33.830 I gave him as much dignity and respect as I could 32 00:01:34.380 --> 00:01:35.230 under the circumstances. 33 00:01:35.230 --> 00:01:37.710 He had to be shackled in the room and so forth. 34 00:01:37.710 --> 00:01:39.590 But still within that, 35 00:01:39.590 --> 00:01:41.780 the first thing I did was tell him 36 00:01:41.780 --> 00:01:43.710 that I was a behavioral analyst 37 00:01:43.710 --> 00:01:46.280 and I don't care anything about what he did. 38 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:49.910 What I wanna do is learn about his culture and his religion. 39 00:01:49.910 --> 00:01:52.070 And because he's an educated man, 40 00:01:52.070 --> 00:01:54.400 he's smarter than anybody else in this camp. 41 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:55.880 He has a degree in engineering 42 00:01:55.880 --> 00:01:57.610 from the University of Felix. 43 00:01:57.610 --> 00:02:00.270 He speaks incredibly articulately in English 44 00:02:00.270 --> 00:02:03.210 and he can share with me the nuances 45 00:02:03.210 --> 00:02:05.000 of his people and his culture. 46 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:07.600 And I would love to learn from him if he wouldn't mind. 47 00:02:07.600 --> 00:02:10.530 And of course being a good Muslim, 48 00:02:10.530 --> 00:02:13.880 he wants to teach others about his religion. 49 00:02:13.880 --> 00:02:15.050 So that's fine. 50 00:02:15.050 --> 00:02:18.700 He could do that without sort of violating his code. 51 00:02:18.700 --> 00:02:20.000 And it took him a while 52 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:22.660 to warm up to where he would actually talk to me. 53 00:02:22.660 --> 00:02:24.730 But then he started teaching me about his religion. 54 00:02:24.730 --> 00:02:26.850 And we had discussions about 55 00:02:26.850 --> 00:02:31.333 the many overlaps between Christianity and Islam, 56 00:02:31.333 --> 00:02:35.030 and we related on a human level. 57 00:02:35.030 --> 00:02:40.030 And after 21 days, he was my friend. 58 00:02:40.850 --> 00:02:42.240 I mean, I would walk in the room 59 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:43.677 and he spread his arms and say, 60 00:02:43.677 --> 00:02:45.750 "Jim, my friend, what can I do for you?" 61 00:02:45.750 --> 00:02:48.060 And I turned it back over to the interrogators 62 00:02:48.060 --> 00:02:50.210 and he was extremely cooperative. 63 00:02:50.210 --> 00:02:51.760 And I use that as a test case 64 00:02:51.760 --> 00:02:55.990 to show them how this can be done successfully 65 00:02:55.990 --> 00:02:58.340 even with the most hardened person. 66 00:02:58.340 --> 00:03:00.250 The guy who would not say a thing. 67 00:03:00.250 --> 00:03:02.103 Who knew exactly how to resist, 68 00:03:03.210 --> 00:03:04.560 because he's a human being.