- And we are now recording. - All right, good. - Yes, we did it. So if you could just say your name. - Yes. My name is Chung Hyun Kyung. - Thank you. And are you lay or clergy? - I'm a layperson, yes. - Yeah. And what is your denominational affiliation, if any? - Presbyterian Church of Korea. Yes. - Okay, thank you. When and where were you born? - 1956, May 15th. - Okay. - So next year, I will be 60! - Oh my goodness (laughs)! - I don't believe it. I feel like 33, literally. - I think you might look like 33, too. - Oh, thank you! You're so kind. - Seriously, it's true! It's true (laughs). - But I said, "This is not true," but it is happening. - Oh (laughs)! Oh, and where you born? - I was born in Seoul, Korea. - Oh, okay. - Actually, Gwangju, Korea, which is revolutionary city of Korea, but my parents just want to put Seoul, kept the city. Say my record is South Korea. - Is that right? - But actual birthplace is Gwangju. - And did they want to put Seoul because it was a revolutionary city? - Maybe! Because they passed away, I never have a chance to ask. - Sure. - But you know, when I look back, I'm very proud to be born in the revolutionary city. - Yes. - Yes. - Oh yes. (Chung laughs) When and how did you first become aware of feminist theology? - Feminist theology, when I first came to USA to study 1981, I was in Claremont at the time. My fundamentalist husband, he was educational minister in the church and I was always educational minister in another church, but they insisted that I have to be with my husband. That the only condition he can get a job. - Really? - And once I can get to his church, I don't have job anymore. I have to volunteer my work. - Really? - Yeah. Assistant to educational minister's wife is like you buy one, you get one free. - That was the church's requirement? - Yeah! And you know, and I grew up in a very liberal ecumenical church in Korea, so that was my first experience, daily experience of fundamentalist church and the sermon, invisibility of women, everything made me so miserable. Women cannot preach in the church. - I'm sorry, which church is this? - It's Presbyterian Church. Korean Presbyterian Church is conservative church. Is immigrant church in Los Angeles area and (laughs) once, only once a year woman can preach, which is mother's day. It's not in the main worship service, but afternoon gathering. She can give a talk, but not in the pulpit. She will have to come down in the audience place and she just read the microphone. She can have witness for her face. But at the time, this very intellectual women, she is a pharmacist, graduated from my same university, like EWHA Women's University, which is like Harvard Radcliffe in Korea. So this smart woman have this (laughs) once in a year opportunity of women speaking. She said when she first married, she fought with her husband all the time because he is a marcher, he just ordering her around, so they put every day. Then one day in their fighting, her husband threw the knife at her, kitchen knife at her and it barely missed her and it stuck on the kitchen wall. She said at that very moment it was a revelation moment. She finally understand the will of God because in the Bible, there is many verses, like when Israel was arrogant, God used Babylons in other country to make her humble. She thought her husband is an instrument of God because she is so arrogant, God used her husband to make her humble. And from that moment, she really believed that why she has to believe no wife speak. Obedient to husband. Women be quiet in the church. Everything Bible was true, but she questioned about it, so she was not a really humble one. That's why her husband used her. It's like total of oppression. - Yes! - And though, the amazing thing was, it was a big church, about 1,000 people and 90% of them are women. - Really? - They so loud and clear are men when she said this, and the only one totally shocked. I couldn't stay there in this madness. This is attempted murder on women. - Yeah! - And even at the time, I just said clearly in the name of God, in the name of Jesus, in the name of Bible, they really justify violence against women. She could have been killed right there. - Yeah. - And everybody is praising her, accepting her destiny, her face being humble and all this 900 women said loud yes. It's actually, I went bathroom and started bawling. That was the beginning of my feminist (interviewer laughs) theology. I said, - Ah! - And I was so shocked, I couldn't go to worship service. - Yes. - And we drove home and my husband say, "Why you "went out? "Why this great worship service?" I say, "This is attempted murder "and I could not say their hallelujah and amen!" - Yeah. - And I think this church is mad. This women are crazy! And you know, he looked at me with utter seriousness and said, "You know, "all these women are women of faith. "Because you don't have a faith, "that's why you feel that way. "Everybody think you are crazy." That's it, that is the end. I got so depressed from that day. I couldn't get out of my bed. I don't want to go to that church, so I become so sick, you know? - Wow. - And that time, Letty Russell came to Claremont to give a lecture on feminist theology, partnership in God and I didn't know what is feminist theology. So I was just all depressed. I just went to listen to lecture. Everything she said was so right. - Yeah. - So right. So it's almost like, did you see this movie, When Harry Met Sally? - Yes (laughs). - She is having this orgasm and all this. All the grandmother said, "What 'til it's coming." Say, "What do you want?" "I want it exactly like that." (interviewer laughs) I say it's like Harry and Sally, that orgasm moment for me! So right after the lecture, I went to Letty Russell and I said, "I don't know how you do what you do, "but I want to do exactly what you, so tell me, "teach me what to do," and Letty said, she has this very interesting smile on her face and she said, "If you want to do "theology like me, "there is the first experiment "feminist school is forming in Boston. "The name is Woman's Theological Center. "All faculty are feminist theologians. "It's women-only school and you can come too. "Ah, that's good if you want to do theology like me." So that evening, I went home and I said, "If you come with me or not, I'm going to Boston." - Wow! - "I'm quitting this school and I'm going to go to Boston." - Ah! - "You know, "if you want to divorce me, fine, "but if I stay in your church and if I "just studied these dead white men," and it was very interesting. When I first went to Claremont, every time I went to class, I have just excruciating stomachache. And as soon as I got out of the class, I'm fine (laughs). - Really? - Yeah, every time. Every day - Oh no! - I have a stomachache, so I said maybe I'm not cut to be a scholar. How come when I go in a classroom, I'm always sick? When I look back, I think I was sick, but understudy none of the writings are about my reality. - Yeah. - It's all about how to get European men's reality, nothing to do with my reality. - Yes. - And so, you know, I wanted to be so successful, I wanted to be a good student, but my body revolted it. Then I went to Women's, so I told that and I just moved to Boston. - I assume that he did not support this decision. - Well, you know, actually, he did - He did? - Because I was very sick. I couldn't get out - Oh. - Of my bed, so he knew. He knew this emergency if he did not support me, I might commit suicide or I might go to mental hospital, I become manic depressive, something is going to happen. - Yeah. - My body, I couldn't get out of bed. - Oh. - So I went to, after that shocking experience in the church, - Yes. - And I went to Boston and I was in Woman's still. I was the first to graduate. - Really? - Of Woman's, first year and first graduated. Really founding student. - Then. - I'm sorry, what year was this? - It was '83. - Okay. - And '83, '84. Everything they say is like honey and milk. - Oh! - At the time, in that area, Rosemary Ruth was teaching. Mary Daily was teaching, Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza teaching. I took everyone's class and also, Letty Rosemary is coming all the time to teach and I was totally everyday, I become healthier and healthier. And even I look at the mirror, I say, "Oh, I have become so beautiful!" I couldn't believe how beautiful I have become. It was that before I was so tired and I was so depressed, I looked like old woman. But in my 20s, when I went to Women's Theological Center, everyday I feel like my brain is downloading this gigabyte knowledge from. (interviewer laughs) It's like everyday is enlightenment or like Mary Daily's class, Rosemary Ruth's class, Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza's class and Letty Russell's class. It's like, I am a mega downloading every day. (interviewer laughs) Not only downloading, I become so intelligent, I just feel I am so intelligent. (interviewer laughs) Everything they teach make so much sense! - Yeah. - Everything speak to my heart, body, my whole sickness is gone, my stomachache is gone, my depression is gone. I become so healthy, I'm full of energy, my face become so beautiful suddenly. My friends came for a visit and they said, "What happened to you? - Oh. - "You look like "a completely different person," you know? - Wow! - And, "I don't know what it is, "but something is going on with you. "You are like," "What do I look?" And they actually used that, "You look like a goddess!" - Really, oh. - Yeah, my friend. "You're radiating, you're so confident! "You so spacious and generous, "I don't know what it is, "but something is going on with you." Yeah, something. It completely change my life. For the first time in my life, I have a clear mission why I am here, how I want my life, how I want to live my life, how I want to contribute to the humanity, and how well I could do it. Just everyday, I am full of vision, and dream, and happiness, and, you know, it's amazing. That one year completely changed my life because you know, even now, my union is pretty progressive, but comparing to what I did in Woman's Theological Center is such a combination of education. - Really? - Because basically, first months, we sit down with the faculty members and we just talk about what we want to learn, what we want to know about. The second months, we make a curriculum together, we change curriculum 10 times. - Really? - On the way, you re-change things. Then all of us, we have to work in real place, women's place of reality, 15 hours of fieldwork. 15 hours a week, so I worked refuge woman, and some women work with homeless woman. Some women work the violence against women, like shelters. So all of us are working in a real women's issue place. Then we bring that experience to our classroom in relation to our own experience. You know, I am, in a way, a refuge too. I was in radical student movement. I was (mutters) at torture, then in prison, the student movement. - Oh! - Then, you know, I had to leave my country to start the liberation theology. If we read good theories, we went to jail at that time, so I identify myself with refuge woman so much. So it's like a liberation, feminist liberation theology mastered. We start with a proxy, real. Then we have a sociologist come, professor of social analysis. So we did a deep feminist analysis on feminist theory analysis. Then we do feminist theological reflection. Real liberation method. Then later, we complete everything with a feminist ritual. That is really formative, theological formation for me. I feel so lucky. - Oh! - This is the way every theological student should study, but I think American seminaries are part of it all, this academic excellence and some kind of captivity of still very European university model. Hey, this is 21st century. We get to have a real radical pedagogy. We are based on this power of prayers, Brazilian revolutionary educator, pedologically oppressed and cultural action for freedom. We study all this education as the revolutionary act. - Yeah. - That was my beginning of feminist theology, so literally, feminist theology saved me. If I did not meet feminist theology, I may end up as a replacement or hospital (laughs). I was so angry, I maybe kill somebody. You know, prison. - Yes. - Or I have some cancer - Yeah. - Or something. Coming to suicide in the tomb. - Yeah. - But this replace. I could end, especially women who are wildly creative and authentic. You just, you know, I didn't know I was that kind of person, but my body told me this is not true. This is not talking about yourself. Why you spend all this money and time in your youth studying about all dead white men who are your oppressor? And all, they made all this division of your country, all this war and colonialism and you sit down and you're spending all your youth, and time, and money to study about them? And nothing about your reality is in that classroom. - Right. - But at that time, I didn't have this kind of consciousness fully because, you know, I am a foreign student who couldn't speak English and you know, I have to just catch up every class to get a scholarship because I cannot have a loan as a foreigner, so if I don't get a good grade, I couldn't get a scholarship and I had to be pushed away, so I study, study, study (mutters) and Tillig and you know, all these people. Process theology. Process theology is a little bit better, but still very white Hadian and so I just got so sick. - Yes. - So feminist theology really, literally saved me and still, not all this post-modern feminist stories, I am very much fundamental feminist liberation theologian from today because that message is still working better for 2/3rd of women, Asia, Africa, Latin America. Down to earth, get to the point. - Yes. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So still I am, after all this post-modern, post-theorist, I am still fundamentally feminist liberation theologian, yeah. - That was really powerful. Thank you. (Chung and interviewer laugh) If we could switch to Reimagining. And what was your relationship to the Reimagining community? - Oh, you know, I was invited because of my speech at Canberra, just the report that I gave a keynote speech at Seventh Assembly of World Conservative Church is 1991, Canberra, Australia. They ask me to give Asian third world feminist liberation (mutters) perspective on holy spirit, so I did it and it become so controversial. You know, there is a story of ecumenical theology book and I just laugh out loud because they said my Canberra speech is the most controversial speech in Christian history, as they said (laughs). - Oh (laughs)! - So I said, "Wow!" I love it. - Yeah. - That (mutters). - Ah. - Publication. I said, "Oh, my God! "This is the most controversial speech "in Christian history?" And I heard later, after my speech because they ask me to do it, I bring all aboriginal dancers, all this naked body with red rain clothing and body painting, didgeridoo and dance naked and dance. And this Korean immigrant doing shamanistic ritual with me and the drums, and dance, and sing, and naked body! What else do you ask for feminist theologeon for feminist theology bring our sensuality, sexuality, emotion, body, back to theologist spirituality. So you know, they asked for it and I did it. Church is completely divided. They called me. I am a heretic, witches, and I come into the sin of apostacy. So next day, I was Times, New York Times, Le Monde, (mutters), Guardian, everywhere. One night, overnight, famous (laughs). - How did you feel or react to that? - I didn't know. They ask me to do it, so I just do. You know, because I was very innocent at the time. I just got out of the Union, I went back to Korea, become a very baby assistant professor since I am not in ordination tract. Actually, I was ordination tract, but I finished all my ordination process. And last question is whether you believe Jesus is your own savior, only savior. I never thought Jesus was the only savior, so I said no. And if I had to say yes, I don't want that kinds of ordination, so there goes the end of my ordination. - Really? - I was very glad I didn't go into this ordained ministry at this moment because as a layperson, I could have a more prophetic voice. - Right. - So you know, they asked, so I did. But they couldn't take it. And when I came back to Korea, even fundamentalist, they send me death threat. - Oh, my goodness. - Yeah, and my husband took side with them, the fundamentalist people. And they say, "You don't know what holy spirit is, "so you have to repent, and you have to receive Holy Spirit, "and you have to speak in tongues," and all this things. "And you have to come back to me "and become obedient wife," so no way I could do it. - Right? - So Canberra made me divorce, actually. Then I was so depressed again because now I have a quiet life. Suddenly, I am on the world spotlight. At that time, literally, I got 10 invitation a day from 10 different countries. - Really? - Every day. Yeah. - Oh. - It was like that next three years and next 10 years, you know. But what Canberra did is, it opened the door to me. - Yes. - I traveled to almost 80 countries in the world. - Really? - I meet human community because I was so weird Christian, I got invitation from Buddhist, Islam, Hindu, and Marxist, psychiatrist, mythologist, and feminist group, radical feminist group, post-fem. It's just indigenous group around the world because they think I am a kind of theologeon they can really dialogue, they can trust. - Yes. - So it break my personal life and I had to divorce, but it also opened me to entire life, entire world, not just Christian community, entire community of humanity. - Yes. - So, it was amazing experience and Reimagining, the reason they invited me as such a young scholar because of what I did in Canberra - Yes. - And they want to hear what is happening after Canberra because at the time still, so many international magazines, theological magazines, they have a debate on my theology in the name of gospel and culture. The only question is, I use a Buddhist shamanistic symbol to do presentation of Asian feminist Holy Spirit and they actually, I heard one conservative church send my speech to some religious scholar in France whether this is a Christian speech. And he said, "This is thoroughly, thoroughly "Christian speech." - Really? - Yeah. - Oh! - And they called me syncretist. Well you know, I feel so wrongly accused because Christmas, Jesus was not born Christmas. - Yes. - And Easter, Jesus was not resurrected. All, this is all pagan holidays! - Right. - And they used Plato, Aristotle, all the philosophical system worldview, create holiest dualistic hierarchical Christianity and no place in the Bible when Jesus was resurrected there, so rabbit and eggs all around, colored eggs. And when Jesus was born, there is Rudolph Red Nose Reindeer and Christmas tree (interviewer laughs) with the light! And this is all pagan thing! But the interesting thing is, when I tried to symbolize Christianity from my own cultural symbols and cosmology like Buddhist, shamanistic cosmology, they think this is heretics and syncretism? When they do it, they think it's also though. So I said, "You called me." I made this, you know, world (mutters) because they attacked me so much. "You are right, I am a syncretist, "but you are a synchrotist too. "Only difference is, I know I am a synchrotist. "You don't know you are a synchrotist "because you are in the center of power. - Yeah. "Because you normalize "your culture, your cosmology "as given." - Yeah. - It's never given to me! And we are in a post-colonial generation and what Jesus said, "Don't try to put new wine "in the old wineskin. "That's exactly what you tried to do. "Me, you tried to put me "in all the wineskin of your paradigms and categories. "I am a new wine." - Yes. - "And don't make your pouch "just the skin burst out." And exactly holy spirit is wild. You don't know where she comes from and where she is blowing. It's exactly the direction of a Holy Spirit. So I was very, very controversial. I was still reimagining. I was in all kinds of theological journals. And even with constant maturity, it becomes so controversial they made five year serious study all around the world project to call the gospel and culture. - Really? - Yeah, because of my contribution. - Yes. - Because Asia, Africa, Latin-American churches, they so resonate with what I did, but the European church has become so angry about it and at the time, they all accuse me as a syncretist. You know, five year study made it every clear, every Christianity is a syncretic Christianity and that's the only way it is relevant, but interesting thing is, I started the whole thing, what is five year study in all around the world, they never invite me once. - Really? - Because so many awful theologians said if they invite me, they would not come. I think because I was really center of controversy reimagine. - Yes. - It is totally reimagine Christian theology from feminist Asian third-world perspective, so they want me to come and to talk about my experience. - You know, I just have to ask. When did you start being able to do this? Was it at Boston where you started doing this kind of - Yeah! - Theology and integrating - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And doing this post-colonial. - So Woman's Theological Center. - Is that where it started to happen? - Really gave me permission - Yes. do whatever I want in my wildest imagination. It started at Woman's Theological Center and when I came to Union, I have Beverly Harris and James Kahn, and Phyllis Drivel, Tom Driver, Dorothy Julie. They are great, imaginative professors and Union really gave me a lot of room to, the Woman's Theological Center I land a tour. - Yes. - Union pushed me in relation against this traditional theology, how far I can push. So in world conservative church, the whole question is in relation to gospel and culture. Gospel is relation to culture. How much you can incorporate, how much is the culture, how much is the gospel? And so my whole thing is, who has a final criteria? How much is okay and how much is not okay? It's not European theological tradition say it. Every community have to make their own decision how much they can incorporate their traditional religions, and spirituality, and worldview and categories, and cosmology into their theology. It's community decide, not you! You know? So it's a whole (mutters) Christian. Who defines what is truth - Yes. - And who defines who transmit this history. What is transmittable history and what is discarded exactly. So I raised the question to them and Canberra really made me more radical because you are so marked as a witch, heretic, and sinner of apostasy. I said, "Oh, what the hell?" (interviewer laughs) Now I thought it was like a big scarlet letter A, Adulteress. - Yeah (laughs). - Apostasy, A. Apostasy speak A. I said, "Okay, I have a big A in my chest." - So you're free. - I'm free! - Yeah. - I will do whatever I want in the wildest way, yeah? And it is still continuing now I become a Buddhist dharma teacher, so I become officially (mutters), and also I did this very deep work, holotropic breath work, so I am. - I'm sorry, what is that? - Holotropic breath work. Transpersonal psychology. - Okay. - So I become a certified therapist and spiritual director. And it's really based on subconsciousness and I want to stay a divine feminine, very feminine quality of unconsciousness, so you know, I'm really, really able of being different way and actually, Canberra did it. If you push the person to the corner or to the degree they have no option but attack (Chung and interviewer laugh) or no option but just to be who they are, - Yes. - So it is a disguised blessing. It was like a curse. I was in therapy, I had to do this intense meditation because suffering was so great, - Yes. - But it opened so many doors. I never expected me in my lifetime, I would become a Buddhist dharma teacher, but Canberra actually did it. I was so attacked by Christian fundamentalists, I need escape and that escape was zen meditation, total silence, sitting and crying. And I did it just to save me from suffering, but it take me more than saving me from my suffering. It totally opened a whole (mutters) of emptiness and mysticism which I never knew that deeply, so now I'm teaching mysticism and revolutionary change. Now I really get to my (mutters) and medieval theologian. God is pure emptiness. I didn't have a clue what they are talking about. God is pure emptiness? What does it mean? But zen really taught me what is pure emptiness, you know? So poor person of faith, everything happening to you is a good thing in the end (laughs). - Well you know, it was the backlash against Reimagining that lead to the formation of the community. - Wow! - So there's a little bit of a parallel there. - Yeah. - And did you participate or attend other conferences? It was just the 1993? - Yes. I only went to this - Yes. - Big Reimagining place - Yes. - Because the reason I didn't participate was what we did in Reimagining was so real. That is a reality, all these people who persecute them, they live in delusion. - Yeah. - They don't know where women are now. - Yeah. - So I said, "What he said was truth "and I don't want to be redundant." It is truth, so I don't have to go there - Yes. - And prove it is true again, again, - Yes. - Again (laughs). - Yes. - I just send all good energy - Yes! - Toward those who need it. But you know, I just knew that is a reality and that is also future. - Yeah. - So I said, personally, I don't need to go there but I send the energy and most of the work, it was like a peace movement. I was in International Interface Peace Conference for 20 years, Dali Lama, Bishop Tutu, Joan Chichester, and Mary Maguire. - Oh! - These people would travel all around the world (mutters), become a peaceful presence and negotiator. So you know they took me Chiapas, Israel, Palestine, North Korea, and Northern Ireland, and Cambodia, and we have so many abbey because we need to really keep our peace in spite of all this tumult. So, I was always, always interested in real thing. - Yes. - So I always went where real thing is happening. Yeah? - Yes, yes. So how do you account for the backlash? I mean, you got that huge backlash. - Yeah! - And then Reimagining got it. Do you have any ideas on how you would account for it? - Yeah, I got so depressed. I hate a great therapist. - Yes. - I know I have this, I remember this therapy session, I was crying and crying, and I feel so lonely, and abandoned, and attacked unjustly. I have two years of intense therapy and one day, my therapist start to cry. - Really? - In therapy session. She said, "Let's stop the therapy," and she gave the most informative words as a therapist. You know, Hyun Kyung, the way you suffer so much is because you are so real. I have to have a study on you. - Really (laughs)? - Yeah, because you live this Asian, Confucian, patriarchal society, and how could you keep your realist so much? - Yeah. - And T.S. Eliot said people are really afraid of the real, so it's not you who are sick, entire system is sick, so you just accept that. You will be all less lonely, you will be all less controversial, but you have to find the community of people who can support you, and always remember it's not you who is sick, system is sick. So with all your power, try to change the system rather than try to change yourself and adjust in this sick system. And she started to cry, cry, cry. - Wow! - That was end of my term. (interviewer and Chung laugh) Yeah, so the personally, I have a very intense therapy and this intense, intense mediation zen. So you know, meditation really calmed me down and give me tremendous healing and silence. Also, all kind of progressive communities around the world, they invited me as one of them, indigenous people. And also very progressive people in other religions and peace movement, peace activist, ecological activist. So you know, learning from them, working with them. It's a real life-giving work around the world. That's the way I overcome my backlash. I really didn't respond to any backlash. I didn't write the article defending myself. I didn't do anything because for me, this already happened and it is already done. I didn't want to defend myself, wasting all my time to defend. What is so real, true to me is let them discuss among themselves. I have to move on, so my moving on is peace movement, ecological movement. What is really happening in this world. How to really change the world. I want to spend my energy in that way, so that was the way I overcome my backlashes. Even once I respond to that because this is a very Asian way, is like Western academic way. So somebody attack you. - Yeah. - You said no, it's not true, it's wrong. My intention is this. In Asia, if they say it's a futile. The more you do, - Oh! - The more you elevate. - Yeah, yeah. - Escalate that energy - Yeah. - Of backlash. - Yes. - The best way to backlash is you don't pay any attention to this. They call (mutters) way, you don't go directly, you just go like waterway and there is a real obstacle in front of you rather than fighting. You just flow around. - Great. - So that was the way I chose. - Yeah. - And also, I didn't want to spend my precious life energy responding to people who do not understand me or has no intention to understand me. - Yes, yeah. - So I moved on with very life-giving, world-changing movement and project. - Oh, this is wonderful. Do you have any thoughts about, I know it's been a long time, but any contributions that Reimagining made or a legacy that it left? - Yes, I think women already knew what is happening in their spiritual world, and they can do anything they want in the church on the surface, but inside, they believe, and they act, and they practice differently. But Reimagining conference, for me, is collectively, we affirm what we are already doing. - Could you say more about that? - Yeah! - Yeah. - Because when I went to Reimagining, nothing is new for me because I came from Women's Theological Center and I see, I observed what is happening and I went through fire through Canberra, so I know this patriarchal church, but I also know all around the world, people are looking for real spirituality, real theology. Women especially, which give life to them, not give death to them. Make them like a little worm, lecherous worm, a sinner, and like half of a man and somebody keep their silence, obedient. They say, "Oh, what bullshit." Even they didn't trust that, but they prepare to trust that. But many women doing actually what they believe privately, or a woman's scholars teach in their classroom. We didn't make it very public at the time, but Reimagining is like a public affirmation of what we are doing quietly in our corners. - Yes. - But you know, we discovered our corner basically cover all around the world! (interviewer laughs) We are every corner, we have everywhere! - Yeah! - That is our corner, everywhere, you know? - Mm-hmm. - So that is the big aha! You are doing that, too? Oh, you are doing that too? Oh, I'm not the only one. - Yeah. - So collectively, we trust it, what we do, and we just took up affirmation. Yeah, this is it. This is reality. Yeah, we will never go back. - Yes. - Too late! - Yes, yes. - We already knew what is true, what is real to us. - So where do you think Reimagining should or could go from here? What does Reimagining look like now? - I think Reimagining at the time is basically really attacking, criticizing Reimagining out of patriarchic, like a poster patriarchy. - Yes, yes. - Theology. If we really reimagine, I think we have a post-empire theology, post is anthropocentric theology. Why we think we are the whole earth exist for us? What arrogance. We see every plant and animal for our food. Isn't that so arrogant (laughs)? They come to be used by us, - Yeah. - So we have to move this human centeredness, anthropocentric reality and also, we have to imagine wildly this, just this very racist white supremacy and homophobic and all the immigrant-phoby, and this phobia of others. Islamic phobia, we have to go beyond all this, so we have to go to someplace where everybody is respected, not just human beings. Human diversity in all forms need to be respected, but biodiversity (laughs) need to be respected. - Yes. - And we have to have this scale. You know, my friend, she is so wise and she is like, dean of some school. When I went to her office, she has this picture of the universe, and earth is not even showing. This little dot, and she has a big arrow. "You are here." (interviewer and Chung laugh) So she said, "Whatever big, "big thing happen." She always have a perspective. We are here, you are here. (interviewer laughs) Entire earth you cannot even see, you are here. So I see that and I feel, yeah, you are here and that give me tremendous freedom, so we need to go to the end. This is not just gender and just women's issue. Patriarchy, like what Elizabeth Chuse Peron, just said (mutters). - Right. - We really have to reimagine this post-neo-liberal, capitalist theology, post-militaristic major industry. The complex post-world theology and what post this corporate media and all this academic industry are complex. How much of our academic knowledge are really critical thinking and changing the world? We do status reproduction, put our young people acting normally, so called, and become a little bulletin of this big rotten system. So we really need wilder imagination and frankly, for me, I just cannot think about Christian theology only. The mold and interface into religious theology, I think we have to imagine inter-spiritual practices, inter-spiritual imagination. - Could you say more about that? What that looks like? - Yeah, because I won the Parliament award of religion. I was so shocked. There are more than 330 religions represented there, - Yeah. - And there are so many indigenous people came to talk about indigenous religions, and I was shocked. There were many workshops every day. From 7 o'clock they have workshop, so no, 7 o'clock, I roam around to what kinds of workshops are there, and every workshop, there were hundreds of people. Room is whole filled. They're all pagan workshop. I think this is sign mother earth is cry out this all climate change. - Yes. - Intuitively, people are going back, earth-bound to spirituality. That is paganism. - Yeah, yeah. - Mother Earth, Gaia. What Gaia is saying. - Right. - So I am really interested in inter-spiritual engagement, inter-spiritual transformation of the self, world, and earth. That's why I'm teaching this mysticism and revolutionary change this semester, but I'm not just teaching this, you know, Christian (mutters), or Thomas Morton. I also teach Rumi, Gandhi, or Alice Walker, and many. Tina Hahn. How their deep connection with the real made them revolutionary fighters like Dorothy Julie. So my class become totally interfaith and inter-spiritual, and I treat them like radical woman, peace activist, like code pink. And I want my student account the entire world in my class, not just Christian tradition. Yeah, it cannot be possible - Yeah. - In this ascent as globalized world. You just cannot have theology for your own community because especially Christian community still are hegemonic community. Many places in the world and world culture, they define what is truth. - Right. - What is right lifestyle and they put so much standard now, but you cannot do that kinds of Christianity anymore. You have to teach Christianity in such a way that your student can be a good neighbor to your Muslim, Hindu, atheist classmate or neighbors in your workplace, in your intermarriage. That is reality of the world, is refuge soldiers are plodding everywhere. How could you life without knowing them? How could you make a theology and not think about them? And if you have this very insular anchor of kind of exclusive community, you are no use, of no use. You want to be of no use theologeon (laughs)? - You're right. So if I could ask, what would you say is at the heart of, what does it mean to be Christian? - For me? - What is it, yes, yeah. - I think to be Christian, for me, - Yes. - Is belief in the vision of Jesus Christ, which is feast of equals, the vision of a kingdom of God is really feast of radical feast of radical equal equals. Table, kitchen table community. We share food totally equally. Doesn't matter you are gay, you are trans, you are handicap. In that feast, you are equal in God's eye, in the sacredness, you have a feast. It's not torture chamber. It's not asceticism. It's the feast, feast! First miracle (interviewer laughs) of Jesus is making water into wine! Jesus came to this world give life in His fullness. - Yes. - I'm total believe full of life in His fullness. To do that, first requirement is how you become a good neighbor, a golden rule. If every religion just keep golden rule, do others as you want to be treated by others, to not harm if you don't want to be harmed. Just golden rule. It's just, get to the basic! Yeah, I think a vision of Jesus was that, - Yeah. - Very radical vision. And also, because I was a teacher world religion courses, what I think Jesus uniqueness is not Jesus's only son of God. We are all sons of God, but we are Muslim and Hindu, but uniqueness of Jesus for me, after studying so many world religion, is still preferential for the poor and oppressed. He always give a focus on them first. Other religions teach very universal love, but Jesus was very peculiar in that sense. I think that is uniqueness of Jesus, preferential for the poor, crushed, oppressed. So I never give up my Christianity because I'm a big believer of liberation of oppressed, and marginalized, and crushed in this world, crucified ones. That's why I can never leave Christianity even I am a Buddhist Dharma teacher because Buddhism do not talk that explicitly about crucified ones. Yeah. - Yes. Is there anything that we haven't discussed that you would like to add? - No! If you want to ask some more questions, I'm willing to answer, but the Reimagining was a good moment of women fighting against patriarchy and wildly reimagining. Not just reacting against patriarchy theology, but real constructive moment of reimagining what is possible for woman, what is theology which is relevant to woman, so it is a real good beginning. Now we have to go forward. - Yes. - Wider, deeper, that our inclusivity become radical inclusivity of intersectionality of everything. - Yes. - And also, we have to pay attention to the cries of mother earth, yeah. That is my imagination, this reimagining, so I do reimagining every moment everywhere where I go, where I am. - Thank you. This has been such a gift. Thank.