WEBVTT

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<v ->And we are now recording.</v>

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<v ->All right, good.</v>
<v ->Yes, we did it.</v>

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So if you could just say your name.

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<v ->Yes.</v>

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My name is Chung Hyun Kyung.

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<v ->Thank you.</v>

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And are you lay or clergy?

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<v ->I'm a layperson, yes.</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

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And what is your denominational affiliation, if any?

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<v ->Presbyterian Church of Korea.</v>

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Yes.
<v ->Okay, thank you.</v>

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When and where were you born?

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<v ->1956, May 15th.</v>

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<v ->Okay.</v>

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<v ->So next year, I will be 60!</v>

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<v ->Oh my goodness (laughs)!</v>
<v ->I don't believe it.</v>

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I feel like 33, literally.

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<v ->I think you might look like</v>

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33, too.
<v ->Oh, thank you!</v>

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You're so kind.
<v ->Seriously, it's true!</v>

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It's true (laughs).
<v ->But I said,</v>

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"This is not true," but it is happening.

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<v ->Oh (laughs)!</v>

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Oh, and where you born?

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<v ->I was born in Seoul, Korea.</v>

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<v ->Oh, okay.</v>
<v ->Actually, Gwangju, Korea,</v>

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which is revolutionary city of Korea,

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but my parents just want to put Seoul,

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kept the city.

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Say my record is South Korea.

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<v ->Is that right?</v>
<v ->But actual birthplace</v>

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is Gwangju.

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<v ->And did they want to put Seoul</v>

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because it was a revolutionary city?

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<v ->Maybe!</v>

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Because they passed away, I never have a chance

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to ask.
<v ->Sure.</v>

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<v ->But you know, when I look back,</v>

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I'm very proud to be born

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in the revolutionary city.
<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->Oh yes.</v>

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(Chung laughs)

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When and how did you first become aware

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of feminist theology?

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<v ->Feminist theology,</v>

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when I first came to USA to study

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1981, I was in Claremont at the time.

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My fundamentalist husband,

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he was educational minister in the church

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and I was always educational minister

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in another church, but they insisted

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that I have to be with my husband.

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That the only condition he can get a job.

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<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->And once I can get</v>

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to his church, I don't have job anymore.

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I have to volunteer my work.

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<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

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Assistant to

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educational minister's wife

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is like you buy one, you get one free.

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<v ->That was the church's requirement?</v>

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<v ->Yeah!</v>

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And you know,

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and I grew up

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in a very liberal ecumenical church in Korea,

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so that was my first experience,

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daily experience of fundamentalist church

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and the sermon,

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invisibility of women,

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everything made me so miserable.

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Women cannot preach in the church.

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<v ->I'm sorry, which church is this?</v>

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<v ->It's Presbyterian Church.</v>

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Korean Presbyterian Church is conservative church.

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Is immigrant church in Los Angeles area

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and (laughs) once,

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only once a year woman can preach,

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which is mother's day.

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It's not in the main worship service,

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but afternoon gathering.

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She can give a talk, but not in the pulpit.

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She will have to come down in the audience place

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and she just read the microphone.

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She can have witness for her face.

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But at the time,

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this very intellectual women,

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she is a pharmacist, graduated from my same university,

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like EWHA Women's University,

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which is like Harvard Radcliffe in Korea.

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So this smart woman

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have this (laughs) once in a year

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opportunity of women speaking.

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She said when she first married,

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she fought with her husband all the time

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because he is a marcher, he just ordering her around,

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so they put every day.

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Then one day in their fighting,

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her husband threw the knife at her,

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kitchen knife at her

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and it barely missed her and it stuck on the kitchen wall.

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She said at that very moment

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it was a revelation moment.

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She finally understand the will of God

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because in the Bible, there is many verses,

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like when Israel was arrogant,

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God used Babylons in other country to make her humble.

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She thought her husband

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is an instrument of God because she is so arrogant,

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God used her husband

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to make her humble.

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And from that moment, she really believed that why

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she has to believe no wife speak.

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Obedient to husband.

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Women be quiet in the church.

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Everything Bible was true,

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but she questioned about it,

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so she was not a really humble one.

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That's why her husband used her.

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It's like total of oppression.

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<v ->Yes!</v>
<v ->And though,</v>

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the amazing thing was,

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it was a big church, about 1,000 people

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and 90% of them are women.

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<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->They so loud and clear</v>

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are men when she said this,

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and the only one totally shocked.

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I couldn't stay there in this madness.

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This is attempted murder on women.

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<v ->Yeah!</v>
<v ->And even at the time,</v>

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I just said clearly in the name of God,

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in the name of Jesus, in the name of Bible,

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they really justify violence against women.

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She could have been killed right there.

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<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->And everybody</v>

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is praising her, accepting her destiny,

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her face being humble

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and all this 900 women said loud yes.

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It's actually, I went bathroom

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and started bawling.

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That was the beginning of my feminist

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(interviewer laughs)
theology.

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I said,
<v ->Ah!</v>

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<v ->And I was so shocked, I couldn't go to worship service.</v>

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<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->And we drove home</v>

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and my husband say, "Why you

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"went out?

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"Why this great worship service?"

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I say, "This is attempted murder

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"and I could not say their hallelujah and amen!"

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<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->And I think</v>

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this church is mad.

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This women are crazy!

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And you know, he looked at me with utter seriousness

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and said, "You know,

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"all these women are women of faith.

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"Because you don't have a faith,

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"that's why you feel that way.

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"Everybody think you are crazy."

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That's it, that is the end.

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I got so depressed from that day.

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I couldn't get out of my bed.

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I don't want to go to that church,

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so I become so sick, you know?
<v ->Wow.</v>

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<v ->And that time,</v>

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Letty Russell came to Claremont

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to give a lecture on feminist theology,

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partnership in God

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and I didn't know what is feminist theology.

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So I was just all depressed.

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I just went to listen to lecture.

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Everything she said was so right.

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<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->So right.</v>

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So it's almost like,

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did you see this movie, When Harry Met Sally?

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<v ->Yes (laughs).</v>
<v ->She is having</v>

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this orgasm and all this.

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All the grandmother said, "What 'til it's coming."

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Say, "What do you want?"

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"I want it exactly like that."

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(interviewer laughs)
I say it's like

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Harry and Sally, that orgasm moment for me!

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So right after the lecture, I went to Letty Russell

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and I said, "I don't know how you do what you do,

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"but I want to do exactly what you, so tell me,

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"teach me what to do,"

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and Letty said, she has this very interesting smile

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on her face and she said, "If you want to do

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"theology like me,

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"there is the first experiment

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"feminist school is forming in Boston.

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"The name is Woman's Theological Center.

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"All faculty are feminist theologians.

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"It's women-only school and you can come too.

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"Ah, that's good if you want to do theology like me."

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So that evening, I went home and I said,

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"If you come with me or not, I'm going to Boston."

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<v ->Wow!</v>

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<v ->"I'm quitting this school and I'm going to go to Boston."</v>

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<v ->Ah!</v>
<v ->"You know,</v>

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"if you want to divorce me, fine,

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"but if I stay in your church and if I

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"just studied these dead white men,"

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and it was very interesting.

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When I first went to Claremont,

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every time I went to class,

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I have just excruciating stomachache.

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And as soon as I got out of the class,

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I'm fine (laughs).
<v ->Really?</v>

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<v ->Yeah, every time.</v>

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Every day
<v ->Oh no!</v>

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<v ->I have a stomachache,</v>

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so I said maybe I'm not cut to be a scholar.

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How come when I go in a classroom,

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I'm always sick?

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When I look back, I think I was sick,

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but understudy

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none of the writings are about my reality.

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<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->It's all about</v>

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how to get European men's reality,

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nothing to do with my reality.
<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->And so, you know, I wanted to be so successful,</v>

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I wanted to be a good student,

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but my body revolted it.

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Then I went to Women's,

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so I told that and I just moved to Boston.

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<v ->I assume that he did not support this decision.</v>

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<v ->Well, you know, actually,</v>

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he did
<v ->He did?</v>

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<v ->Because I was very sick.</v>

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I couldn't get out
<v ->Oh.</v>

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<v ->Of my bed, so he knew.</v>

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He knew this emergency if he did not support me,

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I might commit suicide

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or I might go to mental hospital,

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I become manic depressive, something is going to happen.

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<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->My body,</v>

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I couldn't get out of bed.
<v ->Oh.</v>

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<v ->So I went to, after that shocking experience</v>

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in the church,
<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->And I went to Boston and I was in Woman's still.</v>

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I was the first to graduate.
<v ->Really?</v>

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<v ->Of Woman's, first year</v>

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and first graduated.

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Really founding student.

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<v ->Then.</v>
<v ->I'm sorry,</v>

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what year was this?

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<v ->It was '83.</v>
<v ->Okay.</v>

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<v ->And '83, '84.</v>

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Everything they say is like honey and milk.

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<v ->Oh!</v>

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<v ->At the time,</v>

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in that area, Rosemary Ruth was teaching.

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Mary Daily was teaching,

254
00:11:38.056 --> 00:11:40.551
Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza teaching.

255
00:11:40.551 --> 00:11:43.804
I took everyone's class and also,

256
00:11:43.804 --> 00:11:47.731
Letty Rosemary is coming all the time to teach

257
00:11:47.731 --> 00:11:49.148
and I was totally

258
00:11:50.796 --> 00:11:54.816
everyday, I become healthier and healthier.

259
00:11:54.816 --> 00:11:56.946
And even I look at the mirror, I say,

260
00:11:56.946 --> 00:11:59.297
"Oh, I have become so beautiful!"

261
00:11:59.297 --> 00:12:02.993
I couldn't believe how beautiful I have become.

262
00:12:02.993 --> 00:12:05.977
It was that before I was so tired

263
00:12:05.977 --> 00:12:10.417
and I was so depressed, I looked like old woman.

264
00:12:10.417 --> 00:12:12.834
But in my 20s, when I went to

265
00:12:13.754 --> 00:12:16.004
Women's Theological Center,

266
00:12:16.961 --> 00:12:20.628
everyday I feel like my brain is downloading

267
00:12:22.113 --> 00:12:25.583
this gigabyte knowledge from.
(interviewer laughs)

268
00:12:25.583 --> 00:12:28.040
It's like everyday is enlightenment

269
00:12:28.040 --> 00:12:30.248
or like Mary Daily's class,

270
00:12:30.248 --> 00:12:31.757
Rosemary Ruth's class,

271
00:12:31.757 --> 00:12:33.926
Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza's class

272
00:12:33.926 --> 00:12:36.324
and Letty Russell's class.

273
00:12:36.324 --> 00:12:40.457
It's like, I am a mega downloading every day.

274
00:12:40.457 --> 00:12:42.451
(interviewer laughs)
Not only downloading,

275
00:12:42.451 --> 00:12:43.368
I become so

276
00:12:45.013 --> 00:12:48.182
intelligent, I just feel I am so intelligent.

277
00:12:48.182 --> 00:12:50.952
(interviewer laughs)
Everything they teach

278
00:12:50.952 --> 00:12:52.516
make so much sense!
<v ->Yeah.</v>

279
00:12:52.516 --> 00:12:56.067
<v ->Everything speak to my heart, body,</v>

280
00:12:56.067 --> 00:12:58.686
my whole sickness is gone,

281
00:12:58.686 --> 00:13:02.776
my stomachache is gone, my depression is gone.

282
00:13:02.776 --> 00:13:05.849
I become so healthy, I'm full of energy,

283
00:13:05.849 --> 00:13:08.749
my face become so beautiful suddenly.

284
00:13:08.749 --> 00:13:10.852
My friends came for a visit

285
00:13:10.852 --> 00:13:13.046
and they said, "What happened to you?

286
00:13:13.046 --> 00:13:14.781
<v ->Oh.</v>
<v ->"You look like</v>

287
00:13:14.781 --> 00:13:16.885
"a completely different person," you know?

288
00:13:16.885 --> 00:13:18.414
<v ->Wow!</v>

289
00:13:18.414 --> 00:13:20.474
<v ->And, "I don't know what it is,</v>

290
00:13:20.474 --> 00:13:22.422
"but something is going on with you.

291
00:13:22.422 --> 00:13:24.080
"You are like,"

292
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:25.300
"What do I look?"

293
00:13:25.300 --> 00:13:27.329
And they actually used that,

294
00:13:27.329 --> 00:13:29.270
"You look like a goddess!"

295
00:13:29.270 --> 00:13:31.303
<v ->Really, oh.</v>
<v ->Yeah, my friend.</v>

296
00:13:31.303 --> 00:13:34.952
"You're radiating, you're so confident!

297
00:13:34.952 --> 00:13:38.241
"You so spacious and generous,

298
00:13:38.241 --> 00:13:39.561
"I don't know what it is,

299
00:13:39.561 --> 00:13:41.578
"but something is going on with you."

300
00:13:41.578 --> 00:13:43.283
Yeah, something.

301
00:13:43.283 --> 00:13:46.339
It completely change my life.

302
00:13:46.339 --> 00:13:48.671
For the first time in my life,

303
00:13:48.671 --> 00:13:51.754
I have a clear mission why I am here,

304
00:13:52.599 --> 00:13:54.920
how I want my life,

305
00:13:54.920 --> 00:13:57.857
how I want to live my life,

306
00:13:57.857 --> 00:14:01.649
how I want to contribute to the humanity,

307
00:14:01.649 --> 00:14:03.899
and how well I could do it.

308
00:14:05.060 --> 00:14:09.343
Just everyday, I am full of vision, and dream,

309
00:14:09.343 --> 00:14:13.174
and happiness, and, you know, it's amazing.

310
00:14:13.174 --> 00:14:16.773
That one year completely changed my life

311
00:14:16.773 --> 00:14:18.190
because you know,

312
00:14:19.745 --> 00:14:23.162
even now, my union is pretty progressive,

313
00:14:25.164 --> 00:14:28.615
but comparing to what I did in Woman's Theological Center

314
00:14:28.615 --> 00:14:30.966
is such a combination of education.

315
00:14:30.966 --> 00:14:33.347
<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->Because basically,</v>

316
00:14:33.347 --> 00:14:36.245
first months, we sit down

317
00:14:36.245 --> 00:14:38.172
with the faculty members

318
00:14:38.172 --> 00:14:41.922
and we just talk about what we want to learn,

319
00:14:44.542 --> 00:14:47.031
what we want to know about.

320
00:14:47.031 --> 00:14:50.501
The second months, we make a curriculum together,

321
00:14:50.501 --> 00:14:52.718
we change curriculum 10 times.

322
00:14:52.718 --> 00:14:54.171
<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->On the way,</v>

323
00:14:54.171 --> 00:14:55.736
you re-change things.

324
00:14:55.736 --> 00:14:56.986
Then all of us,

325
00:14:58.011 --> 00:15:01.323
we have to work in real place,

326
00:15:01.323 --> 00:15:05.323
women's place of reality, 15 hours of fieldwork.

327
00:15:06.238 --> 00:15:09.830
15 hours a week, so I worked refuge woman,

328
00:15:09.830 --> 00:15:13.163
and some women work with homeless woman.

329
00:15:13.163 --> 00:15:16.355
Some women work the violence against women,

330
00:15:16.355 --> 00:15:17.755
like shelters.

331
00:15:17.755 --> 00:15:22.170
So all of us are working in a real women's issue place.

332
00:15:22.170 --> 00:15:25.085
Then we bring that experience to our classroom

333
00:15:25.085 --> 00:15:28.122
in relation to our own experience.

334
00:15:28.122 --> 00:15:31.302
You know, I am, in a way, a refuge too.

335
00:15:31.302 --> 00:15:34.135
I was in radical student movement.

336
00:15:34.999 --> 00:15:37.168
I was (mutters) at torture,

337
00:15:37.168 --> 00:15:39.099
then in prison, the student movement.

338
00:15:39.099 --> 00:15:40.099
<v ->Oh!</v>
<v ->Then,</v>

339
00:15:41.508 --> 00:15:44.882
you know, I had to leave my country to start

340
00:15:44.882 --> 00:15:46.602
the liberation theology.

341
00:15:46.602 --> 00:15:50.769
If we read good theories, we went to jail at that time,

342
00:15:51.859 --> 00:15:55.776
so I identify myself with refuge woman so much.

343
00:15:56.753 --> 00:15:58.928
So it's like a liberation,

344
00:15:58.928 --> 00:16:01.914
feminist liberation theology mastered.

345
00:16:01.914 --> 00:16:04.409
We start with a proxy, real.

346
00:16:04.409 --> 00:16:07.340
Then we have a sociologist come,

347
00:16:07.340 --> 00:16:10.082
professor of social analysis.

348
00:16:10.082 --> 00:16:12.940
So we did a deep feminist analysis

349
00:16:12.940 --> 00:16:15.845
on feminist theory analysis.

350
00:16:15.845 --> 00:16:20.188
Then we do feminist theological reflection.

351
00:16:20.188 --> 00:16:22.904
Real liberation method.

352
00:16:22.904 --> 00:16:23.821
Then later,

353
00:16:25.400 --> 00:16:29.558
we complete everything with a feminist ritual.

354
00:16:29.558 --> 00:16:34.066
That is really formative, theological formation for me.

355
00:16:34.066 --> 00:16:36.163
I feel so lucky.

356
00:16:36.163 --> 00:16:37.966
<v ->Oh!</v>
<v ->This is the way</v>

357
00:16:37.966 --> 00:16:41.933
every theological student should study,

358
00:16:41.933 --> 00:16:46.367
but I think American seminaries are part of it all,

359
00:16:46.367 --> 00:16:50.698
this academic excellence and some kind of captivity

360
00:16:50.698 --> 00:16:54.031
of still very European university model.

361
00:16:56.267 --> 00:16:58.928
Hey, this is 21st century.

362
00:16:58.928 --> 00:17:01.791
We get to have a real radical pedagogy.

363
00:17:01.791 --> 00:17:05.292
We are based on this power of prayers,

364
00:17:05.292 --> 00:17:08.042
Brazilian revolutionary educator,

365
00:17:09.116 --> 00:17:10.797
pedologically oppressed

366
00:17:10.797 --> 00:17:13.464
and cultural action for freedom.

367
00:17:14.637 --> 00:17:19.046
We study all this education as the revolutionary act.

368
00:17:19.046 --> 00:17:21.336
<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->That was my beginning</v>

369
00:17:21.336 --> 00:17:23.010
of feminist theology,

370
00:17:23.010 --> 00:17:24.093
so literally,

371
00:17:25.035 --> 00:17:27.545
feminist theology saved me.

372
00:17:27.545 --> 00:17:30.450
If I did not meet feminist theology,

373
00:17:30.450 --> 00:17:35.035
I may end up as a replacement or hospital (laughs).

374
00:17:35.035 --> 00:17:38.943
I was so angry, I maybe kill somebody.

375
00:17:38.943 --> 00:17:40.985
You know, prison.
<v ->Yes.</v>

376
00:17:40.985 --> 00:17:43.634
<v ->Or I have some cancer</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

377
00:17:43.634 --> 00:17:45.303
<v ->Or something.</v>

378
00:17:45.303 --> 00:17:47.815
Coming to suicide in the tomb.
<v ->Yeah.</v>

379
00:17:47.815 --> 00:17:49.458
<v ->But this replace.</v>

380
00:17:49.458 --> 00:17:53.841
I could end, especially women who are wildly creative

381
00:17:53.841 --> 00:17:55.508
and authentic.

382
00:17:55.508 --> 00:17:57.189
You just, you know,

383
00:17:57.189 --> 00:18:00.317
I didn't know I was that kind of person,

384
00:18:00.317 --> 00:18:01.900
but my body told me

385
00:18:03.637 --> 00:18:05.351
this is not true.

386
00:18:05.351 --> 00:18:08.221
This is not talking about yourself.

387
00:18:08.221 --> 00:18:12.219
Why you spend all this money and time in your youth

388
00:18:12.219 --> 00:18:14.887
studying about all dead white men

389
00:18:14.887 --> 00:18:16.804
who are your oppressor?

390
00:18:18.767 --> 00:18:21.767
And all, they made all this division

391
00:18:23.976 --> 00:18:27.191
of your country, all this war and colonialism

392
00:18:27.191 --> 00:18:29.785
and you sit down and you're spending all your youth,

393
00:18:29.785 --> 00:18:33.810
and time, and money to study about them?

394
00:18:33.810 --> 00:18:38.565
And nothing about your reality is in that classroom.

395
00:18:38.565 --> 00:18:40.108
<v ->Right.</v>

396
00:18:40.108 --> 00:18:42.265
<v ->But at that time, I didn't have this kind</v>

397
00:18:42.265 --> 00:18:44.629
of consciousness fully

398
00:18:44.629 --> 00:18:47.750
because, you know, I am a foreign student

399
00:18:47.750 --> 00:18:49.649
who couldn't speak English

400
00:18:49.649 --> 00:18:52.418
and you know, I have to just catch up

401
00:18:52.418 --> 00:18:56.958
every class to get a scholarship because I cannot

402
00:18:56.958 --> 00:18:58.920
have a loan as a foreigner,

403
00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.541
so if I don't get a good grade,

404
00:19:01.541 --> 00:19:05.607
I couldn't get a scholarship and I had to be pushed away,

405
00:19:05.607 --> 00:19:09.502
so I study, study, study (mutters) and Tillig

406
00:19:09.502 --> 00:19:11.477
and you know, all these people.

407
00:19:11.477 --> 00:19:12.751
Process theology.

408
00:19:12.751 --> 00:19:14.599
Process theology is a little bit better,

409
00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.513
but still very white Hadian

410
00:19:17.513 --> 00:19:19.680
and so I just got so sick.

411
00:19:21.188 --> 00:19:22.021
<v ->Yes.</v>

412
00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:27.323
<v ->So feminist theology really, literally saved me</v>

413
00:19:28.763 --> 00:19:30.263
and still, not all

414
00:19:31.779 --> 00:19:34.612
this post-modern feminist stories,

415
00:19:37.411 --> 00:19:41.578
I am very much fundamental feminist liberation theologian

416
00:19:42.497 --> 00:19:45.080
from today because that message

417
00:19:46.192 --> 00:19:49.996
is still working better for 2/3rd of women,

418
00:19:49.996 --> 00:19:52.176
Asia, Africa, Latin America.

419
00:19:52.176 --> 00:19:55.663
Down to earth, get to the point.

420
00:19:55.663 --> 00:19:57.141
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

421
00:19:57.141 --> 00:19:58.813
<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->So still I am,</v>

422
00:19:58.813 --> 00:20:00.390
after all this post-modern,

423
00:20:00.390 --> 00:20:04.388
post-theorist, I am still fundamentally

424
00:20:04.388 --> 00:20:07.471
feminist liberation theologian, yeah.

425
00:20:08.434 --> 00:20:10.785
<v ->That was really powerful.</v>

426
00:20:10.785 --> 00:20:13.857
Thank you.
(Chung and interviewer laugh)

427
00:20:13.857 --> 00:20:16.927
If we could switch to Reimagining.

428
00:20:16.927 --> 00:20:20.921
And what was your relationship to the Reimagining community?

429
00:20:20.921 --> 00:20:22.171
<v ->Oh, you know,</v>

430
00:20:23.545 --> 00:20:27.432
I was invited because of my speech at Canberra,

431
00:20:27.432 --> 00:20:31.079
just the report that I gave a keynote speech

432
00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:35.364
at Seventh Assembly of World Conservative Church

433
00:20:35.364 --> 00:20:37.781
is 1991, Canberra, Australia.

434
00:20:39.490 --> 00:20:41.073
They ask me to give

435
00:20:43.578 --> 00:20:44.995
Asian third world

436
00:20:46.225 --> 00:20:50.201
feminist liberation (mutters)

437
00:20:50.201 --> 00:20:52.451
perspective on holy spirit,

438
00:20:53.330 --> 00:20:54.247
so I did it

439
00:20:55.865 --> 00:20:59.131
and it become so controversial.

440
00:20:59.131 --> 00:21:03.865
You know, there is a story of ecumenical theology book

441
00:21:03.865 --> 00:21:06.249
and I just laugh out loud

442
00:21:06.249 --> 00:21:09.041
because they said my Canberra speech

443
00:21:09.041 --> 00:21:11.708
is the most controversial speech

444
00:21:13.674 --> 00:21:17.125
in Christian history, as they said (laughs).

445
00:21:17.125 --> 00:21:19.220
<v ->Oh (laughs)!</v>

446
00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:20.863
<v ->So I said, "Wow!"</v>

447
00:21:20.863 --> 00:21:21.840
I love it.
<v ->Yeah.</v>

448
00:21:21.840 --> 00:21:25.436
<v ->That (mutters).</v>

449
00:21:25.436 --> 00:21:27.554
<v ->Ah.</v>
<v ->Publication.</v>

450
00:21:27.554 --> 00:21:28.763
I said, "Oh, my God!

451
00:21:28.763 --> 00:21:31.407
"This is the most controversial speech

452
00:21:31.407 --> 00:21:33.324
"in Christian history?"

453
00:21:34.253 --> 00:21:37.131
And I heard later, after my speech

454
00:21:37.131 --> 00:21:39.491
because they ask me to do it,

455
00:21:39.491 --> 00:21:42.074
I bring all aboriginal dancers,

456
00:21:44.707 --> 00:21:46.537
all this naked body

457
00:21:46.537 --> 00:21:49.626
with red rain clothing and body painting,

458
00:21:49.626 --> 00:21:53.002
didgeridoo and dance naked and dance.

459
00:21:53.002 --> 00:21:56.998
And this Korean immigrant doing shamanistic ritual with me

460
00:21:56.998 --> 00:21:59.838
and the drums, and dance, and sing,

461
00:21:59.838 --> 00:22:01.778
and naked body!

462
00:22:01.778 --> 00:22:05.359
What else do you ask for feminist theologeon

463
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.739
for feminist theology bring

464
00:22:07.739 --> 00:22:10.960
our sensuality, sexuality, emotion,

465
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.304
body, back to theologist spirituality.

466
00:22:14.304 --> 00:22:18.623
So you know, they asked for it and I did it.

467
00:22:18.623 --> 00:22:21.343
Church is completely divided.

468
00:22:21.343 --> 00:22:22.593
They called me.

469
00:22:23.463 --> 00:22:26.547
I am a heretic, witches, and I come into the sin

470
00:22:26.547 --> 00:22:27.547
of apostacy.

471
00:22:28.429 --> 00:22:30.706
So next day, I was

472
00:22:30.706 --> 00:22:33.968
Times, New York Times, Le Monde,

473
00:22:33.968 --> 00:22:36.900
(mutters), Guardian, everywhere.

474
00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:41.067
One night, overnight, famous (laughs).

475
00:22:42.373 --> 00:22:45.012
<v ->How did you feel or react to that?</v>

476
00:22:45.012 --> 00:22:46.384
<v ->I didn't know.</v>

477
00:22:46.384 --> 00:22:47.765
They ask me to do it,

478
00:22:47.765 --> 00:22:49.240
so I just do.

479
00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:52.961
You know, because I was very innocent at the time.

480
00:22:52.961 --> 00:22:54.823
I just got out of the Union,

481
00:22:54.823 --> 00:22:57.869
I went back to Korea, become a very

482
00:22:57.869 --> 00:22:59.869
baby assistant professor

483
00:23:01.187 --> 00:23:04.261
since I am not in ordination tract.

484
00:23:04.261 --> 00:23:06.580
Actually, I was ordination tract,

485
00:23:06.580 --> 00:23:10.014
but I finished all my ordination process.

486
00:23:10.014 --> 00:23:13.418
And last question is whether you believe Jesus

487
00:23:13.418 --> 00:23:16.672
is your own savior, only savior.

488
00:23:16.672 --> 00:23:19.826
I never thought Jesus was the only savior,

489
00:23:19.826 --> 00:23:20.909
so I said no.

490
00:23:22.434 --> 00:23:26.434
And if I had to say yes, I don't want that kinds

491
00:23:27.350 --> 00:23:31.809
of ordination, so there goes the end of my ordination.

492
00:23:31.809 --> 00:23:33.642
<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->I was very glad</v>

493
00:23:33.642 --> 00:23:34.975
I didn't go into

494
00:23:36.401 --> 00:23:39.484
this ordained ministry at this moment

495
00:23:40.560 --> 00:23:43.079
because as a layperson, I could have

496
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.187
a more prophetic voice.

497
00:23:45.187 --> 00:23:46.448
<v ->Right.</v>

498
00:23:46.448 --> 00:23:48.624
<v ->So you know, they asked, so I did.</v>

499
00:23:48.624 --> 00:23:50.633
But they couldn't take it.

500
00:23:50.633 --> 00:23:53.852
And when I came back to Korea,

501
00:23:53.852 --> 00:23:57.769
even fundamentalist, they send me death threat.

502
00:23:59.363 --> 00:24:00.668
<v ->Oh, my goodness.</v>

503
00:24:00.668 --> 00:24:03.910
<v ->Yeah, and my husband took side with them,</v>

504
00:24:03.910 --> 00:24:06.077
the fundamentalist people.

505
00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:09.323
And they say, "You don't know what holy spirit is,

506
00:24:09.323 --> 00:24:13.810
"so you have to repent, and you have to receive Holy Spirit,

507
00:24:13.810 --> 00:24:16.956
"and you have to speak in tongues," and all this things.

508
00:24:16.956 --> 00:24:19.164
"And you have to come back to me

509
00:24:19.164 --> 00:24:21.585
"and become obedient wife,"

510
00:24:21.585 --> 00:24:24.365
so no way I could do it.

511
00:24:24.365 --> 00:24:25.375
<v ->Right?</v>
<v ->So Canberra made me</v>

512
00:24:25.375 --> 00:24:26.875
divorce, actually.

513
00:24:29.216 --> 00:24:30.299
Then I was so

514
00:24:32.945 --> 00:24:36.945
depressed again because now I have a quiet life.

515
00:24:38.069 --> 00:24:41.586
Suddenly, I am on the world spotlight.

516
00:24:41.586 --> 00:24:45.673
At that time, literally, I got 10 invitation a day

517
00:24:45.673 --> 00:24:47.646
from 10 different countries.

518
00:24:47.646 --> 00:24:49.065
<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->Every day.</v>

519
00:24:49.065 --> 00:24:50.668
Yeah.
<v ->Oh.</v>

520
00:24:50.668 --> 00:24:53.030
<v ->It was like that next three years</v>

521
00:24:53.030 --> 00:24:55.621
and next 10 years, you know.

522
00:24:55.621 --> 00:24:59.723
But what Canberra did is, it opened the door to me.

523
00:24:59.723 --> 00:25:01.263
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->I traveled</v>

524
00:25:01.263 --> 00:25:03.279
to almost 80 countries in the world.

525
00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:04.674
<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->I meet</v>

526
00:25:04.674 --> 00:25:05.924
human community

527
00:25:07.486 --> 00:25:10.494
because I was so weird Christian,

528
00:25:10.494 --> 00:25:13.765
I got invitation from Buddhist,

529
00:25:13.765 --> 00:25:17.832
Islam, Hindu, and Marxist, psychiatrist,

530
00:25:17.832 --> 00:25:20.499
mythologist, and feminist group,

531
00:25:21.832 --> 00:25:24.651
radical feminist group, post-fem.

532
00:25:24.651 --> 00:25:28.142
It's just indigenous group around the world

533
00:25:28.142 --> 00:25:32.006
because they think I am a kind of theologeon

534
00:25:32.006 --> 00:25:34.749
they can really dialogue, they can trust.

535
00:25:34.749 --> 00:25:35.582
<v ->Yes.</v>

536
00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:39.506
<v ->So it break my personal life</v>

537
00:25:39.506 --> 00:25:43.325
and I had to divorce, but it also opened me

538
00:25:43.325 --> 00:25:46.543
to entire life, entire world,

539
00:25:46.543 --> 00:25:48.879
not just Christian community,

540
00:25:48.879 --> 00:25:51.296
entire community of humanity.

541
00:25:52.776 --> 00:25:53.693
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->So,</v>

542
00:25:55.679 --> 00:25:57.705
it was amazing experience

543
00:25:57.705 --> 00:25:59.038
and Reimagining,

544
00:26:00.100 --> 00:26:03.825
the reason they invited me as such a young scholar

545
00:26:03.825 --> 00:26:05.956
because of what I did in Canberra

546
00:26:05.956 --> 00:26:08.238
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->And they want to hear</v>

547
00:26:08.238 --> 00:26:09.902
what is happening after Canberra

548
00:26:09.902 --> 00:26:14.069
because at the time still, so many international magazines,

549
00:26:15.312 --> 00:26:19.419
theological magazines, they have a debate

550
00:26:19.419 --> 00:26:22.419
on my theology in the name of gospel

551
00:26:23.405 --> 00:26:24.458
and culture.

552
00:26:24.458 --> 00:26:26.739
The only question is, I use

553
00:26:26.739 --> 00:26:29.156
a Buddhist shamanistic symbol

554
00:26:30.192 --> 00:26:34.192
to do presentation of Asian feminist Holy Spirit

555
00:26:36.045 --> 00:26:39.294
and they actually, I heard one conservative church

556
00:26:39.294 --> 00:26:43.461
send my speech to some religious scholar in France

557
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:47.332
whether this is a Christian speech.

558
00:26:47.332 --> 00:26:50.768
And he said, "This is thoroughly, thoroughly

559
00:26:50.768 --> 00:26:52.886
"Christian speech."
<v ->Really?</v>

560
00:26:52.886 --> 00:26:54.240
<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->Oh!</v>

561
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:56.784
<v ->And they called me syncretist.</v>

562
00:26:56.784 --> 00:27:00.190
Well you know, I feel so wrongly accused

563
00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:04.190
because Christmas, Jesus was not born Christmas.

564
00:27:05.091 --> 00:27:06.674
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->And Easter,</v>

565
00:27:07.603 --> 00:27:09.501
Jesus was not resurrected.

566
00:27:09.501 --> 00:27:12.340
All, this is all pagan holidays!

567
00:27:12.340 --> 00:27:13.518
<v ->Right.</v>

568
00:27:13.518 --> 00:27:16.383
<v ->And they used Plato, Aristotle,</v>

569
00:27:16.383 --> 00:27:20.259
all the philosophical system worldview,

570
00:27:20.259 --> 00:27:24.622
create holiest dualistic hierarchical Christianity

571
00:27:24.622 --> 00:27:26.705
and no place in the Bible

572
00:27:27.825 --> 00:27:29.896
when Jesus was resurrected there,

573
00:27:29.896 --> 00:27:32.663
so rabbit and eggs all around,

574
00:27:32.663 --> 00:27:33.918
colored eggs.

575
00:27:33.918 --> 00:27:38.110
And when Jesus was born, there is Rudolph Red Nose Reindeer

576
00:27:38.110 --> 00:27:40.296
and Christmas tree
(interviewer laughs)

577
00:27:40.296 --> 00:27:41.511
with the light!

578
00:27:41.511 --> 00:27:43.366
And this is all pagan thing!

579
00:27:43.366 --> 00:27:45.572
But the interesting thing is,

580
00:27:45.572 --> 00:27:48.953
when I tried to symbolize Christianity

581
00:27:48.953 --> 00:27:51.286
from my own cultural symbols

582
00:27:52.651 --> 00:27:57.352
and cosmology like Buddhist, shamanistic cosmology,

583
00:27:57.352 --> 00:28:00.399
they think this is heretics and syncretism?

584
00:28:00.399 --> 00:28:03.117
When they do it, they think it's also though.

585
00:28:03.117 --> 00:28:03.950
So I said,

586
00:28:04.805 --> 00:28:06.873
"You called me."

587
00:28:06.873 --> 00:28:08.704
I made this, you know,

588
00:28:08.704 --> 00:28:12.821
world (mutters) because they attacked me so much.

589
00:28:12.821 --> 00:28:15.654
"You are right, I am a syncretist,

590
00:28:17.915 --> 00:28:20.565
"but you are a synchrotist too.

591
00:28:20.565 --> 00:28:23.589
"Only difference is, I know I am a synchrotist.

592
00:28:23.589 --> 00:28:25.543
"You don't know you are a synchrotist

593
00:28:25.543 --> 00:28:29.148
"because you are in the center of power.

594
00:28:29.148 --> 00:28:31.222
<v ->Yeah.
"Because you normalize</v>

595
00:28:31.222 --> 00:28:33.339
"your culture, your cosmology

596
00:28:33.339 --> 00:28:35.321
"as given."
<v ->Yeah.</v>

597
00:28:35.321 --> 00:28:37.793
<v ->It's never given to me!</v>

598
00:28:37.793 --> 00:28:41.542
And we are in a post-colonial generation

599
00:28:41.542 --> 00:28:43.630
and what Jesus said,

600
00:28:43.630 --> 00:28:46.437
"Don't try to put new wine

601
00:28:46.437 --> 00:28:48.925
"in the old wineskin.

602
00:28:48.925 --> 00:28:51.307
"That's exactly what you tried to do.

603
00:28:51.307 --> 00:28:52.937
"Me, you tried to put me

604
00:28:52.937 --> 00:28:57.206
"in all the wineskin of your paradigms and categories.

605
00:28:57.206 --> 00:28:59.684
"I am a new wine."
<v ->Yes.</v>

606
00:28:59.684 --> 00:29:02.152
<v ->"And don't make your pouch</v>

607
00:29:02.152 --> 00:29:04.384
"just the skin burst out."

608
00:29:04.384 --> 00:29:07.682
And exactly holy spirit is wild.

609
00:29:07.682 --> 00:29:09.582
You don't know where she comes from

610
00:29:09.582 --> 00:29:11.696
and where she is blowing.

611
00:29:11.696 --> 00:29:13.421
It's exactly

612
00:29:13.421 --> 00:29:15.795
the direction of a Holy Spirit.

613
00:29:15.795 --> 00:29:18.838
So I was very, very controversial.

614
00:29:18.838 --> 00:29:20.838
I was still reimagining.

615
00:29:21.687 --> 00:29:23.187
I was in all kinds

616
00:29:25.070 --> 00:29:27.070
of theological journals.

617
00:29:29.550 --> 00:29:31.677
And even with constant maturity,

618
00:29:31.677 --> 00:29:35.887
it becomes so controversial they made five year

619
00:29:35.887 --> 00:29:38.720
serious study all around the world

620
00:29:39.694 --> 00:29:43.554
project to call the gospel and culture.

621
00:29:43.554 --> 00:29:44.903
<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->Yeah,</v>

622
00:29:44.903 --> 00:29:47.653
because of my contribution.
<v ->Yes.</v>

623
00:29:48.865 --> 00:29:52.512
<v ->Because Asia, Africa, Latin-American churches,</v>

624
00:29:52.512 --> 00:29:54.896
they so resonate with what I did,

625
00:29:54.896 --> 00:29:59.342
but the European church has become so angry about it

626
00:29:59.342 --> 00:30:03.509
and at the time, they all accuse me as a syncretist.

627
00:30:04.682 --> 00:30:08.391
You know, five year study made it every clear,

628
00:30:08.391 --> 00:30:12.467
every Christianity is a syncretic Christianity

629
00:30:12.467 --> 00:30:15.832
and that's the only way it is relevant,

630
00:30:15.832 --> 00:30:18.050
but interesting thing is,

631
00:30:18.050 --> 00:30:19.590
I started the whole thing,

632
00:30:19.590 --> 00:30:23.025
what is five year study in all around the world,

633
00:30:23.025 --> 00:30:25.931
they never invite me once.

634
00:30:25.931 --> 00:30:26.931
<v ->Really?</v>

635
00:30:26.931 --> 00:30:29.564
<v ->Because so many awful theologians said</v>

636
00:30:29.564 --> 00:30:32.814
if they invite me, they would not come.

637
00:30:34.594 --> 00:30:37.511
I think because I was really center

638
00:30:38.379 --> 00:30:40.491
of controversy reimagine.

639
00:30:40.491 --> 00:30:41.324
<v ->Yes.</v>

640
00:30:42.235 --> 00:30:44.098
<v ->It is totally reimagine</v>

641
00:30:44.098 --> 00:30:47.265
Christian theology from feminist Asian

642
00:30:48.760 --> 00:30:50.846
third-world perspective,

643
00:30:50.846 --> 00:30:55.806
so they want me to come and to talk about my experience.

644
00:30:55.806 --> 00:30:57.262
<v ->You know, I just have to ask.</v>

645
00:30:57.262 --> 00:31:00.841
When did you start being able to do this?

646
00:31:00.841 --> 00:31:02.463
Was it at Boston where you started

647
00:31:02.463 --> 00:31:04.287
doing this kind of
<v ->Yeah!</v>

648
00:31:04.287 --> 00:31:06.199
<v ->Theology and integrating</v>
<v ->Yeah, yeah, yeah.</v>

649
00:31:06.199 --> 00:31:08.297
<v ->And doing this post-colonial.</v>

650
00:31:08.297 --> 00:31:09.843
<v ->So Woman's Theological Center.</v>

651
00:31:09.843 --> 00:31:10.676
<v ->Is that where</v>

652
00:31:10.676 --> 00:31:11.509
it started to happen?
<v ->Really gave me</v>

653
00:31:11.509 --> 00:31:12.342
permission
<v ->Yes.</v>

654
00:31:12.342 --> 00:31:15.915
do whatever I want in my wildest imagination.

655
00:31:15.915 --> 00:31:18.259
It started at Woman's Theological Center

656
00:31:18.259 --> 00:31:21.144
and when I came to Union,

657
00:31:21.144 --> 00:31:24.143
I have Beverly Harris and James Kahn,

658
00:31:24.143 --> 00:31:26.950
and Phyllis Drivel, Tom Driver,

659
00:31:26.950 --> 00:31:28.834
Dorothy Julie.

660
00:31:28.834 --> 00:31:32.405
They are great, imaginative professors

661
00:31:32.405 --> 00:31:36.539
and Union really gave me a lot of room to,

662
00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:40.588
the Woman's Theological Center I land a tour.

663
00:31:40.588 --> 00:31:42.385
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->Union pushed me</v>

664
00:31:42.385 --> 00:31:46.779
in relation against this traditional theology,

665
00:31:46.779 --> 00:31:48.791
how far I can push.

666
00:31:48.791 --> 00:31:51.866
So in world conservative church,

667
00:31:51.866 --> 00:31:56.033
the whole question is in relation to gospel and culture.

668
00:31:57.283 --> 00:31:59.783
Gospel is relation to culture.

669
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:03.176
How much you can incorporate,

670
00:32:04.394 --> 00:32:05.788
how much is the culture,

671
00:32:05.788 --> 00:32:07.886
how much is the gospel?

672
00:32:07.886 --> 00:32:09.969
And so my whole thing is,

673
00:32:10.889 --> 00:32:12.972
who has a final criteria?

674
00:32:13.979 --> 00:32:17.479
How much is okay and how much is not okay?

675
00:32:18.926 --> 00:32:22.851
It's not European theological tradition say it.

676
00:32:22.851 --> 00:32:26.502
Every community have to make their own decision

677
00:32:26.502 --> 00:32:29.635
how much they can incorporate

678
00:32:29.635 --> 00:32:33.353
their traditional religions, and spirituality,

679
00:32:33.353 --> 00:32:36.861
and worldview and categories, and cosmology

680
00:32:36.861 --> 00:32:38.528
into their theology.

681
00:32:39.658 --> 00:32:42.255
It's community decide, not you!

682
00:32:42.255 --> 00:32:43.574
You know?

683
00:32:43.574 --> 00:32:45.967
So it's a whole (mutters) Christian.

684
00:32:45.967 --> 00:32:47.518
Who defines what is truth
<v ->Yes.</v>

685
00:32:47.518 --> 00:32:51.354
<v ->And who defines who transmit this history.</v>

686
00:32:51.354 --> 00:32:53.771
What is transmittable history

687
00:32:55.147 --> 00:32:57.653
and what is discarded exactly.

688
00:32:57.653 --> 00:33:00.320
So I raised the question to them

689
00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:08.884
and Canberra really made me more radical

690
00:33:08.884 --> 00:33:11.967
because you are so marked as a witch,

691
00:33:12.977 --> 00:33:15.494
heretic, and sinner of apostasy.

692
00:33:15.494 --> 00:33:17.500
I said, "Oh, what the hell?"

693
00:33:17.500 --> 00:33:19.581
(interviewer laughs)
Now I thought

694
00:33:19.581 --> 00:33:22.237
it was like a big scarlet letter A,

695
00:33:22.237 --> 00:33:24.116
Adulteress.
<v ->Yeah (laughs).</v>

696
00:33:24.116 --> 00:33:25.368
<v ->Apostasy, A.</v>

697
00:33:25.368 --> 00:33:26.785
Apostasy speak A.

698
00:33:27.689 --> 00:33:31.272
I said, "Okay, I have a big A in my chest."

699
00:33:32.514 --> 00:33:34.710
<v ->So you're free.</v>
<v ->I'm free!</v>

700
00:33:34.710 --> 00:33:36.303
<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->I will do whatever I want</v>

701
00:33:36.303 --> 00:33:38.386
in the wildest way, yeah?

702
00:33:39.913 --> 00:33:42.547
And it is still continuing

703
00:33:42.547 --> 00:33:45.923
now I become a Buddhist dharma teacher,

704
00:33:45.923 --> 00:33:49.995
so I become officially (mutters),

705
00:33:49.995 --> 00:33:53.701
and also I did this very deep work,

706
00:33:53.701 --> 00:33:56.368
holotropic breath work, so I am.

707
00:33:57.760 --> 00:33:58.852
<v ->I'm sorry, what is that?</v>

708
00:33:58.852 --> 00:34:00.976
<v ->Holotropic breath work.</v>

709
00:34:00.976 --> 00:34:02.853
Transpersonal psychology.
<v ->Okay.</v>

710
00:34:02.853 --> 00:34:05.770
<v ->So I become a certified therapist</v>

711
00:34:07.589 --> 00:34:09.506
and spiritual director.

712
00:34:10.532 --> 00:34:13.949
And it's really based on subconsciousness

713
00:34:14.845 --> 00:34:18.716
and I want to stay a divine feminine,

714
00:34:18.716 --> 00:34:20.827
very feminine quality

715
00:34:20.827 --> 00:34:22.410
of unconsciousness,

716
00:34:23.489 --> 00:34:26.072
so you know, I'm really, really

717
00:34:28.888 --> 00:34:31.132
able of being different way

718
00:34:31.132 --> 00:34:34.022
and actually, Canberra did it.

719
00:34:34.022 --> 00:34:37.022
If you push the person to the corner

720
00:34:38.044 --> 00:34:41.815
or to the degree they have no option but attack

721
00:34:41.815 --> 00:34:43.755
(Chung and interviewer laugh)

722
00:34:43.755 --> 00:34:47.543
or no option but just to be who they are,

723
00:34:47.543 --> 00:34:48.876
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->So it is</v>

724
00:34:50.185 --> 00:34:52.518
a disguised blessing.

725
00:34:52.518 --> 00:34:54.701
It was like a curse.

726
00:34:54.701 --> 00:34:56.626
I was in therapy,

727
00:34:56.626 --> 00:35:00.745
I had to do this intense meditation because suffering

728
00:35:00.745 --> 00:35:02.778
was so great,
<v ->Yes.</v>

729
00:35:02.778 --> 00:35:05.743
<v ->But it opened so many doors.</v>

730
00:35:05.743 --> 00:35:07.326
I never expected me

731
00:35:08.993 --> 00:35:13.034
in my lifetime, I would become a Buddhist dharma teacher,

732
00:35:13.034 --> 00:35:15.566
but Canberra actually did it.

733
00:35:15.566 --> 00:35:20.181
I was so attacked by Christian fundamentalists,

734
00:35:20.181 --> 00:35:23.210
I need escape and that escape

735
00:35:23.210 --> 00:35:26.856
was zen meditation, total silence,

736
00:35:26.856 --> 00:35:29.213
sitting and crying.

737
00:35:29.213 --> 00:35:32.880
And I did it just to save me from suffering,

738
00:35:35.508 --> 00:35:39.675
but it take me more than saving me from my suffering.

739
00:35:42.005 --> 00:35:46.172
It totally opened a whole (mutters) of emptiness

740
00:35:47.237 --> 00:35:49.073
and mysticism

741
00:35:49.073 --> 00:35:52.316
which I never knew that deeply,

742
00:35:52.316 --> 00:35:54.876
so now I'm teaching mysticism

743
00:35:54.876 --> 00:35:56.736
and revolutionary change.

744
00:35:56.736 --> 00:36:00.013
Now I really get to my (mutters)

745
00:36:00.013 --> 00:36:02.013
and medieval theologian.

746
00:36:03.924 --> 00:36:05.757
God is pure emptiness.

747
00:36:06.652 --> 00:36:09.725
I didn't have a clue what they are talking about.

748
00:36:09.725 --> 00:36:11.134
God is pure emptiness?

749
00:36:11.134 --> 00:36:12.634
What does it mean?

750
00:36:13.588 --> 00:36:15.588
But zen really taught me

751
00:36:16.890 --> 00:36:19.640
what is pure emptiness, you know?

752
00:36:23.888 --> 00:36:25.039
So poor person

753
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:28.122
of faith, everything happening to you

754
00:36:29.014 --> 00:36:32.096
is a good thing in the end (laughs).

755
00:36:32.096 --> 00:36:34.659
<v ->Well you know, it was the backlash</v>

756
00:36:34.659 --> 00:36:36.733
against Reimagining that lead to the formation

757
00:36:36.733 --> 00:36:38.452
of the community.
<v ->Wow!</v>

758
00:36:38.452 --> 00:36:40.410
<v ->So there's a little bit of a parallel there.</v>

759
00:36:40.410 --> 00:36:41.243
<v ->Yeah.</v>

760
00:36:42.261 --> 00:36:44.765
<v ->And did you participate or attend</v>

761
00:36:44.765 --> 00:36:46.338
other conferences?

762
00:36:46.338 --> 00:36:47.928
It was just the 1993?
<v ->Yes.</v>

763
00:36:47.928 --> 00:36:50.116
I only went to this
<v ->Yes.</v>

764
00:36:50.116 --> 00:36:52.548
<v ->Big Reimagining place</v>
<v ->Yes.</v>

765
00:36:52.548 --> 00:36:56.669
<v ->Because the reason I didn't participate</v>

766
00:36:56.669 --> 00:37:00.882
was what we did in Reimagining was so real.

767
00:37:00.882 --> 00:37:03.679
That is a reality, all these people

768
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:06.471
who persecute them, they live in delusion.

769
00:37:06.471 --> 00:37:08.102
<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->They don't know where women</v>

770
00:37:08.102 --> 00:37:09.265
are now.
<v ->Yeah.</v>

771
00:37:09.265 --> 00:37:10.265
<v ->So I said,</v>

772
00:37:11.663 --> 00:37:13.580
"What he said was truth

773
00:37:15.011 --> 00:37:18.553
"and I don't want to be redundant."

774
00:37:18.553 --> 00:37:21.977
It is truth, so I don't have to go there

775
00:37:21.977 --> 00:37:24.575
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->And prove it is true</v>

776
00:37:24.575 --> 00:37:25.880
again, again,
<v ->Yes.</v>

777
00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:27.147
<v ->Again (laughs).</v>
<v ->Yes.</v>

778
00:37:27.147 --> 00:37:29.033
<v ->I just send all good energy</v>
<v ->Yes!</v>

779
00:37:29.033 --> 00:37:30.845
<v ->Toward those who need it.</v>

780
00:37:30.845 --> 00:37:33.510
But you know, I just knew

781
00:37:33.510 --> 00:37:37.599
that is a reality and that is also future.

782
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:39.182
<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->So I said,</v>

783
00:37:40.367 --> 00:37:43.867
personally, I don't need to go there

784
00:37:43.867 --> 00:37:46.325
but I send the energy

785
00:37:46.325 --> 00:37:51.278
and most of the work, it was like a peace movement.

786
00:37:51.278 --> 00:37:55.075
I was in International Interface Peace Conference

787
00:37:55.075 --> 00:37:56.158
for 20 years,

788
00:37:57.097 --> 00:37:59.014
Dali Lama, Bishop Tutu,

789
00:37:59.872 --> 00:38:02.985
Joan Chichester, and Mary Maguire.

790
00:38:02.985 --> 00:38:04.917
<v ->Oh!</v>
<v ->These people would travel</v>

791
00:38:04.917 --> 00:38:08.298
all around the world (mutters),

792
00:38:08.298 --> 00:38:12.191
become a peaceful presence and negotiator.

793
00:38:12.191 --> 00:38:15.061
So you know they took me Chiapas,

794
00:38:15.061 --> 00:38:17.017
Israel, Palestine,

795
00:38:17.017 --> 00:38:19.850
North Korea, and Northern Ireland,

796
00:38:21.150 --> 00:38:24.169
and Cambodia, and we have so many abbey

797
00:38:24.169 --> 00:38:26.669
because we need to really keep

798
00:38:28.581 --> 00:38:31.748
our peace in spite of all this tumult.

799
00:38:33.068 --> 00:38:33.901
So,

800
00:38:38.213 --> 00:38:41.354
I was always, always interested

801
00:38:41.354 --> 00:38:42.923
in real thing.
<v ->Yes.</v>

802
00:38:42.923 --> 00:38:47.505
<v ->So I always went where real thing is happening.</v>

803
00:38:47.505 --> 00:38:49.258
Yeah?
<v ->Yes, yes.</v>

804
00:38:49.258 --> 00:38:51.272
So how do you account for the backlash?

805
00:38:51.272 --> 00:38:53.104
I mean, you got that huge backlash.

806
00:38:53.104 --> 00:38:54.652
<v ->Yeah!</v>
<v ->And then Reimagining got it.</v>

807
00:38:54.652 --> 00:38:56.154
Do you have any ideas

808
00:38:56.154 --> 00:38:57.914
on how you would account for it?

809
00:38:57.914 --> 00:39:00.938
<v ->Yeah, I got so depressed.</v>

810
00:39:00.938 --> 00:39:04.308
I hate a great therapist.
<v ->Yes.</v>

811
00:39:04.308 --> 00:39:06.673
<v ->I know I have this,</v>

812
00:39:06.673 --> 00:39:08.468
I remember this therapy session,

813
00:39:08.468 --> 00:39:10.810
I was crying and crying,

814
00:39:10.810 --> 00:39:13.314
and I feel so lonely, and abandoned,

815
00:39:13.314 --> 00:39:15.147
and attacked unjustly.

816
00:39:16.806 --> 00:39:20.526
I have two years of intense therapy

817
00:39:20.526 --> 00:39:23.776
and one day, my therapist start to cry.

818
00:39:24.668 --> 00:39:25.876
<v ->Really?</v>
<v ->In therapy session.</v>

819
00:39:25.876 --> 00:39:28.793
She said, "Let's stop the therapy,"

820
00:39:29.879 --> 00:39:33.129
and she gave the most informative words

821
00:39:34.392 --> 00:39:35.642
as a therapist.

822
00:39:36.681 --> 00:39:39.418
You know, Hyun Kyung, the way you suffer so much

823
00:39:39.418 --> 00:39:41.100
is because you are so real.

824
00:39:41.100 --> 00:39:43.524
I have to have a study on you.

825
00:39:43.524 --> 00:39:45.759
<v ->Really (laughs)?</v>
<v ->Yeah,</v>

826
00:39:45.759 --> 00:39:49.007
because you live this Asian, Confucian,

827
00:39:49.007 --> 00:39:51.143
patriarchal society, and how could you

828
00:39:51.143 --> 00:39:53.718
keep your realist so much?

829
00:39:53.718 --> 00:39:56.463
<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->And T.S. Eliot said people</v>

830
00:39:56.463 --> 00:39:59.316
are really afraid of the real,

831
00:39:59.316 --> 00:40:02.372
so it's not you who are sick,

832
00:40:02.372 --> 00:40:06.289
entire system is sick, so you just accept that.

833
00:40:07.231 --> 00:40:09.285
You will be all less lonely,

834
00:40:09.285 --> 00:40:11.044
you will be all less controversial,

835
00:40:11.044 --> 00:40:13.539
but you have to find the community of people

836
00:40:13.539 --> 00:40:15.675
who can support you,

837
00:40:15.675 --> 00:40:19.121
and always remember it's not you

838
00:40:19.121 --> 00:40:21.747
who is sick, system is sick.

839
00:40:21.747 --> 00:40:25.935
So with all your power, try to change the system

840
00:40:25.935 --> 00:40:28.813
rather than try to change yourself

841
00:40:28.813 --> 00:40:30.939
and adjust in this sick system.

842
00:40:30.939 --> 00:40:32.648
And she started to cry, cry, cry.

843
00:40:32.648 --> 00:40:33.841
<v ->Wow!</v>
<v ->That was end</v>

844
00:40:33.841 --> 00:40:35.098
of my term.

845
00:40:35.098 --> 00:40:37.490
(interviewer and Chung laugh)

846
00:40:37.490 --> 00:40:41.173
Yeah, so the personally, I have a very intense therapy

847
00:40:41.173 --> 00:40:44.663
and this intense, intense mediation zen.

848
00:40:44.663 --> 00:40:47.265
So you know, meditation

849
00:40:47.265 --> 00:40:49.015
really calmed me down

850
00:40:50.071 --> 00:40:52.571
and give me tremendous healing

851
00:40:55.969 --> 00:40:57.278
and silence.

852
00:40:57.278 --> 00:40:59.695
Also, all kind of progressive

853
00:41:01.411 --> 00:41:04.891
communities around the world, they invited me

854
00:41:04.891 --> 00:41:07.724
as one of them, indigenous people.

855
00:41:09.019 --> 00:41:13.186
And also very progressive people in other religions

856
00:41:14.321 --> 00:41:17.433
and peace movement, peace activist,

857
00:41:17.433 --> 00:41:18.964
ecological activist.

858
00:41:18.964 --> 00:41:21.319
So you know, learning from them,

859
00:41:21.319 --> 00:41:23.172
working with them.

860
00:41:23.172 --> 00:41:27.005
It's a real life-giving work around the world.

861
00:41:27.866 --> 00:41:31.744
That's the way I overcome my backlash.

862
00:41:31.744 --> 00:41:34.786
I really didn't respond to any backlash.

863
00:41:34.786 --> 00:41:38.438
I didn't write the article defending myself.

864
00:41:38.438 --> 00:41:41.984
I didn't do anything because for me,

865
00:41:41.984 --> 00:41:44.451
this already happened and it is already done.

866
00:41:44.451 --> 00:41:47.108
I didn't want to defend myself,

867
00:41:47.108 --> 00:41:49.073
wasting all my time to defend.

868
00:41:49.073 --> 00:41:51.695
What is so real, true to me

869
00:41:51.695 --> 00:41:54.814
is let them discuss among themselves.

870
00:41:54.814 --> 00:41:56.932
I have to move on,

871
00:41:56.932 --> 00:42:00.469
so my moving on is peace movement,

872
00:42:00.469 --> 00:42:01.739
ecological movement.

873
00:42:01.739 --> 00:42:03.404
What is really happening in this world.

874
00:42:03.404 --> 00:42:05.987
How to really change the world.

875
00:42:06.884 --> 00:42:10.674
I want to spend my energy in that way,

876
00:42:10.674 --> 00:42:12.257
so that was the way

877
00:42:14.914 --> 00:42:16.004
I overcome

878
00:42:16.004 --> 00:42:17.847
my backlashes.

879
00:42:17.847 --> 00:42:20.097
Even once I respond to that

880
00:42:21.234 --> 00:42:23.984
because this is a very Asian way,

881
00:42:25.539 --> 00:42:28.471
is like Western academic way.

882
00:42:28.471 --> 00:42:30.253
So somebody attack you.
<v ->Yeah.</v>

883
00:42:30.253 --> 00:42:32.279
<v ->You said no, it's not true, it's wrong.</v>

884
00:42:32.279 --> 00:42:34.175
My intention is this.

885
00:42:34.175 --> 00:42:37.029
In Asia, if they say it's a futile.

886
00:42:37.029 --> 00:42:38.630
The more you do,
<v ->Oh!</v>

887
00:42:38.630 --> 00:42:40.682
<v ->The more you elevate.</v>
<v ->Yeah, yeah.</v>

888
00:42:40.682 --> 00:42:42.623
<v ->Escalate that energy</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

889
00:42:42.623 --> 00:42:43.971
<v ->Of backlash.</v>
<v ->Yes.</v>

890
00:42:43.971 --> 00:42:48.598
<v ->The best way to backlash is you don't pay any attention</v>

891
00:42:48.598 --> 00:42:49.681
to this.

892
00:42:49.681 --> 00:42:53.100
They call (mutters) way, you don't go directly,

893
00:42:53.100 --> 00:42:55.116
you just go like waterway

894
00:42:55.116 --> 00:42:59.458
and there is a real obstacle in front of you

895
00:42:59.458 --> 00:43:00.921
rather than fighting.

896
00:43:00.921 --> 00:43:02.671
You just flow around.

897
00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:06.859
<v ->Great.</v>
<v ->So that was the way I chose.</v>

898
00:43:06.859 --> 00:43:08.758
<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->And also,</v>

899
00:43:08.758 --> 00:43:12.237
I didn't want to spend my precious life energy

900
00:43:12.237 --> 00:43:15.460
responding to people who do not understand me

901
00:43:15.460 --> 00:43:18.421
or has no intention to understand me.

902
00:43:18.421 --> 00:43:19.421
<v ->Yes, yeah.</v>

903
00:43:20.261 --> 00:43:23.428
<v ->So I moved on with very life-giving,</v>

904
00:43:24.700 --> 00:43:27.700
world-changing movement and project.

905
00:43:30.623 --> 00:43:32.623
<v ->Oh, this is wonderful.</v>

906
00:43:35.747 --> 00:43:37.963
Do you have any thoughts about,

907
00:43:37.963 --> 00:43:39.617
I know it's been a long time,

908
00:43:39.617 --> 00:43:43.992
but any contributions that Reimagining made

909
00:43:43.992 --> 00:43:46.000
or a legacy that it left?

910
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:48.996
<v ->Yes, I think women already knew</v>

911
00:43:48.996 --> 00:43:50.413
what is happening

912
00:43:51.372 --> 00:43:53.455
in their spiritual world,

913
00:43:55.163 --> 00:43:59.484
and they can do anything they want in the church

914
00:43:59.484 --> 00:44:02.250
on the surface, but inside,

915
00:44:02.250 --> 00:44:04.600
they believe, and they act,

916
00:44:04.600 --> 00:44:06.763
and they practice differently.

917
00:44:06.763 --> 00:44:10.231
But Reimagining conference, for me,

918
00:44:10.231 --> 00:44:14.398
is collectively, we affirm what we are already doing.

919
00:44:15.739 --> 00:44:17.640
<v ->Could you say more about that?</v>

920
00:44:17.640 --> 00:44:19.090
<v ->Yeah!</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

921
00:44:19.090 --> 00:44:20.985
<v ->Because when I went to Reimagining,</v>

922
00:44:20.985 --> 00:44:22.527
nothing is new for me

923
00:44:22.527 --> 00:44:25.712
because I came from Women's Theological Center

924
00:44:25.712 --> 00:44:28.814
and I see, I observed what is happening

925
00:44:28.814 --> 00:44:32.574
and I went through fire through Canberra,

926
00:44:32.574 --> 00:44:35.747
so I know this patriarchal church,

927
00:44:35.747 --> 00:44:38.922
but I also know all around the world,

928
00:44:38.922 --> 00:44:42.308
people are looking for real spirituality,

929
00:44:42.308 --> 00:44:43.989
real theology.

930
00:44:43.989 --> 00:44:46.959
Women especially, which give life to them,

931
00:44:46.959 --> 00:44:49.120
not give death to them.

932
00:44:49.120 --> 00:44:53.287
Make them like a little worm, lecherous worm, a sinner,

933
00:44:54.882 --> 00:44:56.715
and like half of a man

934
00:44:57.609 --> 00:45:01.656
and somebody keep their silence, obedient.

935
00:45:01.656 --> 00:45:04.544
They say, "Oh, what bullshit."

936
00:45:04.544 --> 00:45:06.945
Even they didn't trust that,

937
00:45:06.945 --> 00:45:09.744
but they prepare to trust that.

938
00:45:09.744 --> 00:45:12.161
But many women doing actually

939
00:45:16.089 --> 00:45:19.149
what they believe privately,

940
00:45:19.149 --> 00:45:22.870
or a woman's scholars teach in their classroom.

941
00:45:22.870 --> 00:45:26.764
We didn't make it very public at the time,

942
00:45:26.764 --> 00:45:29.431
but Reimagining is like a public

943
00:45:31.102 --> 00:45:34.435
affirmation of what we are doing quietly

944
00:45:36.574 --> 00:45:38.324
in our corners.
<v ->Yes.</v>

945
00:45:40.216 --> 00:45:43.959
<v ->But you know, we discovered our corner</v>

946
00:45:43.959 --> 00:45:46.316
basically cover all around the world!

947
00:45:46.316 --> 00:45:48.290
(interviewer laughs)

948
00:45:48.290 --> 00:45:51.129
We are every corner, we have everywhere!

949
00:45:51.129 --> 00:45:53.485
<v ->Yeah!</v>
<v ->That is our corner,</v>

950
00:45:53.485 --> 00:45:55.861
everywhere, you know?

951
00:45:55.861 --> 00:45:58.694
<v ->Mm-hmm.</v>
<v ->So that is the big aha!</v>

952
00:45:59.576 --> 00:46:01.388
You are doing that, too?

953
00:46:01.388 --> 00:46:02.806
Oh, you are doing that too?

954
00:46:02.806 --> 00:46:04.375
Oh, I'm not the only one.
<v ->Yeah.</v>

955
00:46:04.375 --> 00:46:05.875
<v ->So collectively,</v>

956
00:46:07.796 --> 00:46:08.796
we trust it,

957
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:13.544
what we do, and we just took up affirmation.

958
00:46:13.544 --> 00:46:15.538
Yeah, this is it.

959
00:46:15.538 --> 00:46:17.573
This is reality.

960
00:46:17.573 --> 00:46:20.548
Yeah, we will never go back.
<v ->Yes.</v>

961
00:46:20.548 --> 00:46:22.482
<v ->Too late!</v>
<v ->Yes, yes.</v>

962
00:46:22.482 --> 00:46:26.970
<v ->We already knew what is true, what is real to us.</v>

963
00:46:26.970 --> 00:46:31.412
<v ->So where do you think Reimagining should or could go</v>

964
00:46:31.412 --> 00:46:32.728
from here?

965
00:46:32.728 --> 00:46:35.051
What does Reimagining look like now?

966
00:46:35.051 --> 00:46:37.801
<v ->I think Reimagining at the time</v>

967
00:46:39.435 --> 00:46:41.935
is basically really attacking,

968
00:46:44.171 --> 00:46:48.516
criticizing Reimagining out of patriarchic,

969
00:46:48.516 --> 00:46:51.474
like a poster patriarchy.
<v ->Yes, yes.</v>

970
00:46:51.474 --> 00:46:52.391
<v ->Theology.</v>

971
00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:57.882
If we really reimagine, I think we have a post-empire

972
00:46:57.882 --> 00:47:01.465
theology, post is anthropocentric theology.

973
00:47:03.269 --> 00:47:04.269
Why we think

974
00:47:05.838 --> 00:47:09.329
we are the whole earth exist for us?

975
00:47:09.329 --> 00:47:10.704
What arrogance.

976
00:47:10.704 --> 00:47:14.287
We see every plant and animal for our food.

977
00:47:15.130 --> 00:47:17.903
Isn't that so arrogant (laughs)?

978
00:47:17.903 --> 00:47:20.745
They come to be used by us,
<v ->Yeah.</v>

979
00:47:20.745 --> 00:47:24.352
<v ->So we have to move this human centeredness,</v>

980
00:47:24.352 --> 00:47:26.269
anthropocentric reality

981
00:47:29.714 --> 00:47:32.546
and also, we have to imagine

982
00:47:32.546 --> 00:47:33.546
wildly this,

983
00:47:34.596 --> 00:47:37.679
just this very racist white supremacy

984
00:47:39.559 --> 00:47:40.726
and homophobic

985
00:47:42.958 --> 00:47:45.291
and all the immigrant-phoby,

986
00:47:46.364 --> 00:47:48.531
and this phobia of others.

987
00:47:49.893 --> 00:47:53.531
Islamic phobia, we have to go beyond all this,

988
00:47:53.531 --> 00:47:57.698
so we have to go to someplace where everybody is respected,

989
00:47:58.833 --> 00:48:00.778
not just human beings.

990
00:48:00.778 --> 00:48:04.366
Human diversity in all forms need to be respected,

991
00:48:04.366 --> 00:48:07.736
but biodiversity (laughs)

992
00:48:07.736 --> 00:48:09.986
need to be respected.
<v ->Yes.</v>

993
00:48:10.926 --> 00:48:13.676
<v ->And we have to have this scale.</v>

994
00:48:14.720 --> 00:48:17.637
You know, my friend, she is so wise

995
00:48:18.553 --> 00:48:21.125
and she is like, dean of some school.

996
00:48:21.125 --> 00:48:23.915
When I went to her office,

997
00:48:23.915 --> 00:48:27.375
she has this picture of the universe,

998
00:48:27.375 --> 00:48:29.948
and earth is not even showing.

999
00:48:29.948 --> 00:48:33.840
This little dot, and she has a big arrow.

1000
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:35.108
"You are here."

1001
00:48:35.108 --> 00:48:36.975
(interviewer and Chung laugh)

1002
00:48:36.975 --> 00:48:39.225
So she said, "Whatever big,

1003
00:48:40.164 --> 00:48:41.747
"big thing happen."

1004
00:48:43.501 --> 00:48:46.001
She always have a perspective.

1005
00:48:46.919 --> 00:48:48.385
We are here, you are here.

1006
00:48:48.385 --> 00:48:50.321
(interviewer laughs)

1007
00:48:50.321 --> 00:48:54.104
Entire earth you cannot even see, you are here.

1008
00:48:54.104 --> 00:48:57.771
So I see that and I feel, yeah, you are here

1009
00:49:00.657 --> 00:49:01.990
and that give me

1010
00:49:04.005 --> 00:49:05.588
tremendous freedom,

1011
00:49:06.533 --> 00:49:09.049
so we need to go to the end.

1012
00:49:09.049 --> 00:49:12.966
This is not just gender and just women's issue.

1013
00:49:13.912 --> 00:49:17.630
Patriarchy, like what Elizabeth Chuse Peron,

1014
00:49:17.630 --> 00:49:21.380
just said (mutters).
<v ->Right.</v>

1015
00:49:23.964 --> 00:49:27.067
<v ->We really have to reimagine</v>

1016
00:49:27.067 --> 00:49:30.650
this post-neo-liberal, capitalist theology,

1017
00:49:32.334 --> 00:49:33.751
post-militaristic

1018
00:49:36.570 --> 00:49:37.779
major industry.

1019
00:49:37.779 --> 00:49:40.362
The complex post-world theology

1020
00:49:41.706 --> 00:49:45.039
and what post this corporate media

1021
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:48.622
and all this academic industry are complex.

1022
00:49:50.178 --> 00:49:53.011
How much of our academic knowledge

1023
00:49:54.118 --> 00:49:56.537
are really critical thinking

1024
00:49:56.537 --> 00:49:58.692
and changing the world?

1025
00:49:58.692 --> 00:50:01.485
We do status reproduction,

1026
00:50:01.485 --> 00:50:04.568
put our young people acting normally,

1027
00:50:05.534 --> 00:50:06.367
so called,

1028
00:50:07.555 --> 00:50:09.888
and become a little bulletin

1029
00:50:14.694 --> 00:50:16.861
of this big rotten system.

1030
00:50:18.642 --> 00:50:21.642
So we really need wilder imagination

1031
00:50:24.913 --> 00:50:28.791
and frankly, for me, I just cannot think about

1032
00:50:28.791 --> 00:50:31.487
Christian theology only.

1033
00:50:31.487 --> 00:50:34.937
The mold and interface into religious theology,

1034
00:50:34.937 --> 00:50:39.104
I think we have to imagine inter-spiritual practices,

1035
00:50:41.183 --> 00:50:43.516
inter-spiritual imagination.

1036
00:50:44.938 --> 00:50:46.294
<v ->Could you say more about that?</v>

1037
00:50:46.294 --> 00:50:47.413
What that looks like?
<v ->Yeah,</v>

1038
00:50:47.413 --> 00:50:48.964
because I won the Parliament award of religion.

1039
00:50:48.964 --> 00:50:50.513
I was so shocked.

1040
00:50:50.513 --> 00:50:53.209
There are more than 330 religions

1041
00:50:53.209 --> 00:50:55.513
represented there,
<v ->Yeah.</v>

1042
00:50:55.513 --> 00:50:59.346
<v ->And there are so many indigenous people came</v>

1043
00:51:00.427 --> 00:51:03.883
to talk about indigenous religions,

1044
00:51:03.883 --> 00:51:06.095
and I was shocked.

1045
00:51:06.095 --> 00:51:09.095
There were many workshops every day.

1046
00:51:11.646 --> 00:51:14.098
From 7 o'clock they have workshop,

1047
00:51:14.098 --> 00:51:17.353
so no, 7 o'clock, I roam around

1048
00:51:17.353 --> 00:51:19.942
to what kinds of workshops are there,

1049
00:51:19.942 --> 00:51:23.549
and every workshop, there were hundreds of people.

1050
00:51:23.549 --> 00:51:26.068
Room is whole filled.

1051
00:51:26.068 --> 00:51:28.208
They're all pagan workshop.

1052
00:51:28.208 --> 00:51:31.875
I think this is sign mother earth is cry out

1053
00:51:33.350 --> 00:51:35.850
this all climate change.
<v ->Yes.</v>

1054
00:51:36.753 --> 00:51:39.836
<v ->Intuitively, people are going back,</v>

1055
00:51:40.722 --> 00:51:43.445
earth-bound to spirituality.

1056
00:51:43.445 --> 00:51:45.117
That is paganism.
<v ->Yeah, yeah.</v>

1057
00:51:45.117 --> 00:51:47.233
<v ->Mother Earth, Gaia.</v>

1058
00:51:47.233 --> 00:51:49.549
What Gaia is saying.
<v ->Right.</v>

1059
00:51:49.549 --> 00:51:52.049
<v ->So I am really interested in</v>

1060
00:51:53.968 --> 00:51:56.218
inter-spiritual engagement,

1061
00:51:57.330 --> 00:52:00.913
inter-spiritual transformation of the self,

1062
00:52:01.847 --> 00:52:03.264
world, and earth.

1063
00:52:04.941 --> 00:52:08.446
That's why I'm teaching this mysticism

1064
00:52:08.446 --> 00:52:11.335
and revolutionary change this semester,

1065
00:52:11.335 --> 00:52:13.418
but I'm not just teaching

1066
00:52:16.729 --> 00:52:17.979
this, you know,

1067
00:52:19.984 --> 00:52:24.154
Christian (mutters), or Thomas Morton.

1068
00:52:24.154 --> 00:52:26.321
I also teach Rumi, Gandhi,

1069
00:52:29.129 --> 00:52:30.462
or Alice Walker,

1070
00:52:34.678 --> 00:52:36.085
and many.

1071
00:52:36.085 --> 00:52:37.627
Tina Hahn.

1072
00:52:37.627 --> 00:52:40.424
How their deep connection

1073
00:52:40.424 --> 00:52:44.731
with the real made them revolutionary fighters

1074
00:52:44.731 --> 00:52:46.314
like Dorothy Julie.

1075
00:52:48.414 --> 00:52:50.581
So my class become totally

1076
00:52:52.692 --> 00:52:55.275
interfaith and inter-spiritual,

1077
00:52:56.179 --> 00:52:59.595
and I treat them like radical woman,

1078
00:52:59.595 --> 00:53:02.178
peace activist, like code pink.

1079
00:53:03.963 --> 00:53:07.796
And I want my student account the entire world

1080
00:53:09.581 --> 00:53:12.566
in my class, not just Christian tradition.

1081
00:53:12.566 --> 00:53:14.907
Yeah, it cannot be possible
<v ->Yeah.</v>

1082
00:53:14.907 --> 00:53:18.243
<v ->In this ascent as globalized world.</v>

1083
00:53:18.243 --> 00:53:21.380
You just cannot have theology

1084
00:53:21.380 --> 00:53:23.213
for your own community

1085
00:53:24.181 --> 00:53:28.637
because especially Christian community still

1086
00:53:28.637 --> 00:53:30.637
are hegemonic community.

1087
00:53:32.777 --> 00:53:36.487
Many places in the world and world culture,

1088
00:53:36.487 --> 00:53:39.320
they define what is truth.
<v ->Right.</v>

1089
00:53:40.287 --> 00:53:42.381
<v ->What is right lifestyle</v>

1090
00:53:42.381 --> 00:53:45.930
and they put so much standard now,

1091
00:53:45.930 --> 00:53:50.224
but you cannot do that kinds of Christianity anymore.

1092
00:53:50.224 --> 00:53:52.581
You have to teach Christianity

1093
00:53:52.581 --> 00:53:53.664
in such a way

1094
00:53:54.554 --> 00:53:58.499
that your student can be a good neighbor

1095
00:53:58.499 --> 00:54:00.999
to your Muslim, Hindu, atheist

1096
00:54:02.736 --> 00:54:06.153
classmate or neighbors in your workplace,

1097
00:54:08.104 --> 00:54:09.937
in your intermarriage.

1098
00:54:11.779 --> 00:54:14.563
That is reality of the world,

1099
00:54:14.563 --> 00:54:16.374
is refuge soldiers

1100
00:54:16.374 --> 00:54:18.374
are plodding everywhere.

1101
00:54:19.209 --> 00:54:22.542
How could you life without knowing them?

1102
00:54:23.762 --> 00:54:27.602
How could you make a theology and not think about them?

1103
00:54:27.602 --> 00:54:31.256
And if you have this very insular anchor

1104
00:54:31.256 --> 00:54:33.839
of kind of exclusive community,

1105
00:54:38.148 --> 00:54:39.359
you are no use,

1106
00:54:39.359 --> 00:54:40.192
of no use.

1107
00:54:41.266 --> 00:54:44.141
You want to be of no use theologeon (laughs)?

1108
00:54:44.141 --> 00:54:45.454
<v ->You're right.</v>

1109
00:54:45.454 --> 00:54:47.350
So if I could ask,

1110
00:54:47.350 --> 00:54:49.360
what would you say is at the heart of,

1111
00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:51.545
what does it mean to be Christian?

1112
00:54:51.545 --> 00:54:53.246
<v ->For me?</v>
<v ->What is it,</v>

1113
00:54:53.246 --> 00:54:55.077
yes, yeah.
<v ->I think to be Christian,</v>

1114
00:54:55.077 --> 00:54:56.160
for me,
<v ->Yes.</v>

1115
00:54:57.299 --> 00:55:00.799
<v ->Is belief in the vision of Jesus Christ,</v>

1116
00:55:01.678 --> 00:55:03.761
which is feast of equals,

1117
00:55:04.712 --> 00:55:07.331
the vision of a kingdom of God

1118
00:55:07.331 --> 00:55:09.998
is really feast of radical feast

1119
00:55:11.279 --> 00:55:13.279
of radical equal equals.

1120
00:55:15.699 --> 00:55:18.282
Table, kitchen table community.

1121
00:55:20.985 --> 00:55:23.485
We share food totally equally.

1122
00:55:24.557 --> 00:55:27.013
Doesn't matter you are gay, you are trans,

1123
00:55:27.013 --> 00:55:28.279
you are handicap.

1124
00:55:28.279 --> 00:55:31.902
In that feast, you are equal in God's eye,

1125
00:55:31.902 --> 00:55:34.831
in the sacredness, you have a feast.

1126
00:55:34.831 --> 00:55:37.062
It's not torture chamber.

1127
00:55:37.062 --> 00:55:38.346
It's not asceticism.

1128
00:55:38.346 --> 00:55:40.179
It's the feast, feast!

1129
00:55:41.035 --> 00:55:43.532
First miracle
(interviewer laughs)

1130
00:55:43.532 --> 00:55:46.449
of Jesus is making water into wine!

1131
00:55:48.454 --> 00:55:50.800
Jesus came to this world give life

1132
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:52.595
in His fullness.
<v ->Yes.</v>

1133
00:55:52.595 --> 00:55:57.310
<v ->I'm total believe full of life in His fullness.</v>

1134
00:55:57.310 --> 00:55:58.227
To do that,

1135
00:55:59.559 --> 00:56:03.726
first requirement is how you become a good neighbor,

1136
00:56:04.830 --> 00:56:05.997
a golden rule.

1137
00:56:08.142 --> 00:56:11.475
If every religion just keep golden rule,

1138
00:56:13.075 --> 00:56:16.908
do others as you want to be treated by others,

1139
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:21.538
to not harm if you don't want to be harmed.

1140
00:56:21.538 --> 00:56:23.244
Just golden rule.

1141
00:56:23.244 --> 00:56:25.577
It's just, get to the basic!

1142
00:56:27.074 --> 00:56:30.001
Yeah, I think a vision of Jesus was that,

1143
00:56:30.001 --> 00:56:31.916
<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->Very radical vision.</v>

1144
00:56:31.916 --> 00:56:36.083
And also, because I was a teacher world religion courses,

1145
00:56:37.680 --> 00:56:40.919
what I think Jesus uniqueness

1146
00:56:40.919 --> 00:56:43.779
is not Jesus's only son of God.

1147
00:56:43.779 --> 00:56:45.336
We are all sons of God,

1148
00:56:45.336 --> 00:56:48.364
but we are Muslim and Hindu,

1149
00:56:48.364 --> 00:56:51.745
but uniqueness of Jesus for me,

1150
00:56:51.745 --> 00:56:54.499
after studying so many world religion,

1151
00:56:54.499 --> 00:56:58.582
is still preferential for the poor and oppressed.

1152
00:57:00.544 --> 00:57:04.188
He always give a focus on them first.

1153
00:57:04.188 --> 00:57:07.688
Other religions teach very universal love,

1154
00:57:09.152 --> 00:57:13.191
but Jesus was very peculiar in that sense.

1155
00:57:13.191 --> 00:57:17.532
I think that is uniqueness of Jesus, preferential

1156
00:57:17.532 --> 00:57:20.282
for the poor, crushed, oppressed.

1157
00:57:21.404 --> 00:57:24.237
So I never give up my Christianity

1158
00:57:27.076 --> 00:57:31.589
because I'm a big believer of liberation of oppressed,

1159
00:57:31.589 --> 00:57:36.048
and marginalized, and crushed in this world,

1160
00:57:36.048 --> 00:57:37.298
crucified ones.

1161
00:57:38.220 --> 00:57:40.796
That's why I can never leave Christianity

1162
00:57:40.796 --> 00:57:44.984
even I am a Buddhist Dharma teacher because Buddhism

1163
00:57:44.984 --> 00:57:49.067
do not talk that explicitly about crucified ones.

1164
00:57:49.991 --> 00:57:50.908
Yeah.
<v ->Yes.</v>

1165
00:57:52.101 --> 00:57:54.898
Is there anything that we haven't discussed

1166
00:57:54.898 --> 00:57:56.163
that you would like to add?

1167
00:57:56.163 --> 00:57:57.046
<v ->No!</v>

1168
00:57:57.046 --> 00:57:59.546
If you want to ask some more questions,

1169
00:57:59.546 --> 00:58:01.379
I'm willing to answer,

1170
00:58:03.058 --> 00:58:06.891
but the Reimagining was a good moment of women

1171
00:58:09.987 --> 00:58:12.237
fighting against patriarchy

1172
00:58:13.337 --> 00:58:15.254
and wildly reimagining.

1173
00:58:16.881 --> 00:58:20.714
Not just reacting against patriarchy theology,

1174
00:58:21.550 --> 00:58:26.507
but real constructive moment of reimagining what is possible

1175
00:58:26.507 --> 00:58:29.168
for woman, what is theology which is relevant

1176
00:58:29.168 --> 00:58:31.935
to woman, so it is a real good beginning.

1177
00:58:31.935 --> 00:58:34.024
Now we have to go forward.

1178
00:58:34.024 --> 00:58:36.291
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->Wider, deeper,</v>

1179
00:58:36.291 --> 00:58:40.208
that our inclusivity become radical inclusivity

1180
00:58:41.443 --> 00:58:43.495
of intersectionality of everything.

1181
00:58:43.495 --> 00:58:44.912
<v ->Yes.</v>
<v ->And also,</v>

1182
00:58:46.715 --> 00:58:50.882
we have to pay attention to the cries of mother earth, yeah.

1183
00:58:54.382 --> 00:58:56.878
That is my imagination, this reimagining,

1184
00:58:56.878 --> 00:58:59.687
so I do reimagining every moment

1185
00:58:59.687 --> 00:59:01.520
everywhere where I go,

1186
00:59:04.157 --> 00:59:05.074
where I am.

1187
00:59:06.469 --> 00:59:07.302
<v ->Thank you.</v>

1188
00:59:07.302 --> 00:59:08.412
This has been such a gift.

1189
00:59:08.412 --> 00:59:09.245
Thank.