WEBVTT
1
00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:05.993
Yeah, we're good.
2
00:00:05.993 --> 00:00:06.826
Okay, we're good.
3
00:00:06.826 --> 00:00:07.723
We're ready to go.
4
00:00:07.723 --> 00:00:08.556
Yeah.
5
00:00:08.556 --> 00:00:09.389
Okay, okay.
6
00:00:09.389 --> 00:00:10.222
Okay, good afternoon.
7
00:00:11.330 --> 00:00:12.930
We are very grateful to you
8
00:00:12.930 --> 00:00:14.650
for participating in the Witness
9
00:00:14.650 --> 00:00:16.810
to Guantanamo Project.
10
00:00:16.810 --> 00:00:19.760
We invite you to speak of your experiences
11
00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:22.610
at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and we are hoping
12
00:00:22.610 --> 00:00:24.690
to collect your story and the story
13
00:00:24.690 --> 00:00:28.700
of all the men who have been to Guantanamo
14
00:00:28.700 --> 00:00:32.530
over the last seven and a half years.
15
00:00:32.530 --> 00:00:33.910
We are creating an archive
16
00:00:33.910 --> 00:00:36.910
of the stories that people in America
17
00:00:36.910 --> 00:00:39.100
and the world will have a better understanding
18
00:00:39.100 --> 00:00:42.880
of what you and the other men experienced.
19
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:46.700
Future generations must know what happened
20
00:00:46.700 --> 00:00:48.050
and by telling your story,
21
00:00:48.050 --> 00:00:50.780
you are contributing to history.
22
00:00:50.780 --> 00:00:53.230
We appreciate your courage and your willingness
23
00:00:53.230 --> 00:00:55.030
to speak to us.
24
00:00:55.030 --> 00:00:57.110
If at any time you want to take a break,
25
00:00:57.110 --> 00:00:59.070
just tell us and we'll take a break,
26
00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:00.340
and if at any time you say something
27
00:01:00.340 --> 00:01:01.173
you'd rather remove, just tell us
28
00:01:01.173 --> 00:01:02.973
and we'll remove it.
29
00:01:03.950 --> 00:01:05.710
So, we'd like to begin by just
30
00:01:05.710 --> 00:01:06.770
some basic information,
31
00:01:06.770 --> 00:01:10.570
just to have for the camera, including your name.
32
00:01:10.570 --> 00:01:12.810
And some of the details I'll ask
33
00:01:12.810 --> 00:01:16.490
is we'll do one on one, so your name?
34
00:01:16.490 --> 00:01:18.660
My name is Ruhal Ahmed.
35
00:01:18.660 --> 00:01:20.320
Country of origin?
36
00:01:20.320 --> 00:01:21.290
UK.
37
00:01:21.290 --> 00:01:22.380
Hometown?
38
00:01:22.380 --> 00:01:23.720
Tipton.
39
00:01:23.720 --> 00:01:25.370
Birth date?
40
00:01:25.370 --> 00:01:27.141
11, three 11, 81.
41
00:01:27.141 --> 00:01:29.880
(chuckles) Age?
42
00:01:29.880 --> 00:01:31.120
27.
43
00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:32.240
Nationality?
44
00:01:32.240 --> 00:01:33.530
British.
45
00:01:33.530 --> 00:01:34.830
Languages?
46
00:01:36.080 --> 00:01:38.970
English, first language, second language,
47
00:01:38.970 --> 00:01:40.950
Bangoli where my mother and father
48
00:01:40.950 --> 00:01:42.990
were originally from Bangladesh.
49
00:01:42.990 --> 00:01:46.920
Third language Urdu, fourth language, Arabic,
50
00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:49.390
and bits and bobs of different dialects
51
00:01:49.390 --> 00:01:52.370
of Urdu, Punjabi, and a bit of...
52
00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:55.940
My wife speaks a language
53
00:01:55.940 --> 00:01:57.603
called Pothwari from Kashmir.
54
00:02:01.330 --> 00:02:02.460
Your religion?
55
00:02:02.460 --> 00:02:03.940
Islam.
56
00:02:03.940 --> 00:02:06.085
Marital status?
57
00:02:06.085 --> 00:02:06.918
You married.
58
00:02:06.918 --> 00:02:07.751
I'm married.
59
00:02:07.751 --> 00:02:08.709
Yeah.
(Ruhal laughs)
60
00:02:08.709 --> 00:02:09.995
With a child?
61
00:02:09.995 --> 00:02:10.931
Yeah, one daughter.
62
00:02:10.931 --> 00:02:13.963
One daughter, and your education?
63
00:02:15.720 --> 00:02:19.540
Till high school, GCSE's.
64
00:02:19.540 --> 00:02:21.310
And your place of residence
65
00:02:21.310 --> 00:02:24.040
before you were detained.
66
00:02:24.040 --> 00:02:25.300
Tipton.
67
00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:26.133
And your current
68
00:02:26.133 --> 00:02:26.966
place of residence?
69
00:02:26.966 --> 00:02:27.799
Is Tipton.
70
00:02:27.799 --> 00:02:29.210
Tipton, and the date of arrival
71
00:02:29.210 --> 00:02:31.404
to Guantanamo and your departure?
72
00:02:31.404 --> 00:02:35.410
14th of February, 2002,
73
00:02:35.410 --> 00:02:40.393
departure was 9th of April, 2004,
74
00:02:41.521 --> 00:02:43.716
the 9th of the 7th, can't remember.
75
00:02:43.716 --> 00:02:46.550
(chuckles) Okay,
76
00:02:46.550 --> 00:02:49.960
so we'd like to begin by asking you to describe
77
00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:52.490
how it was with as many details
78
00:02:52.490 --> 00:02:54.230
as you can remember from the time
79
00:02:54.230 --> 00:02:55.740
you were first arrested,
80
00:02:55.740 --> 00:02:58.319
to the time you were brought to Guantanamo.
81
00:02:58.319 --> 00:02:59.402
Okay, okay.
82
00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:03.440
I was first handed over by the Northern Alliance
83
00:03:03.440 --> 00:03:06.030
to the American special forces on
84
00:03:06.030 --> 00:03:11.030
the 31st of December, 2002.
85
00:03:12.189 --> 00:03:16.370
2001, sorry, in a place called Sheberghan,
86
00:03:16.370 --> 00:03:18.220
which is in the North of Afghanistan.
87
00:03:19.170 --> 00:03:20.530
When they first arrested me,
88
00:03:20.530 --> 00:03:22.630
they strip searched me,
89
00:03:22.630 --> 00:03:25.713
and they tied plastic ties around my hand,
90
00:03:27.107 --> 00:03:28.660
my wrist and my ankles.
91
00:03:28.660 --> 00:03:30.310
And then they put a sand bag
92
00:03:30.310 --> 00:03:31.570
over my head, and taped.
93
00:03:31.570 --> 00:03:34.020
Put masking tape around the top of the sand bag,
94
00:03:34.020 --> 00:03:35.307
which is on the top of my eyes.
95
00:03:35.307 --> 00:03:37.690
And they wrote something on it,
96
00:03:37.690 --> 00:03:41.630
like V3, as a number to identify
97
00:03:41.630 --> 00:03:44.053
which detainee is who.
98
00:03:44.053 --> 00:03:48.010
And they sat me down along the wall amongst many
99
00:03:48.010 --> 00:03:51.260
of the detainees then they, after about one hour,
100
00:03:51.260 --> 00:03:54.400
they made us march and they threw us
101
00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:56.130
onto the back of a truck.
102
00:03:56.130 --> 00:03:59.100
And we were driven to the nearest airport,
103
00:03:59.100 --> 00:04:01.363
which was about roughly an hour drive.
104
00:04:02.490 --> 00:04:03.830
Then we were also put on a plane,
105
00:04:03.830 --> 00:04:05.100
probably about 10:00 o'clock at night,
106
00:04:05.100 --> 00:04:06.957
that same day.
107
00:04:06.957 --> 00:04:08.870
And I was flown to Kandahar,
108
00:04:08.870 --> 00:04:12.560
which was a makeshift prison run
109
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:13.423
by the Americans.
110
00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.370
I stayed there for exactly six weeks in total,
111
00:04:19.370 --> 00:04:23.620
so from the 1st of January 2002 to 14th, or 13th,
112
00:04:23.620 --> 00:04:25.720
12, February 2002.
113
00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:27.923
During that period, when I first got there,
114
00:04:28.890 --> 00:04:31.410
they took us off the plane
115
00:04:31.410 --> 00:04:33.220
and they tied ropes around our arms.
116
00:04:33.220 --> 00:04:35.354
So, each individual had a rope around their arm,
117
00:04:35.354 --> 00:04:37.340
and by the guy, the soldier in front
118
00:04:37.340 --> 00:04:38.643
would pull that rope and everyone
119
00:04:38.643 --> 00:04:41.500
would have to follow, like in a train
120
00:04:41.500 --> 00:04:43.090
kind of direction.
121
00:04:43.090 --> 00:04:44.450
And they made us walk around
122
00:04:44.450 --> 00:04:46.960
for what seemed to me, they made us walk around
123
00:04:46.960 --> 00:04:48.753
in a circle for many hours.
124
00:04:49.590 --> 00:04:50.670
The reason I think they did that
125
00:04:50.670 --> 00:04:53.490
to make us, disorientate us.
126
00:04:53.490 --> 00:04:55.217
At the same time, they had dogs around
127
00:04:55.217 --> 00:04:56.740
and there was barking.
128
00:04:56.740 --> 00:04:57.753
We still was hooded.
129
00:04:59.050 --> 00:05:01.200
And it was nice cause we could see,
130
00:05:01.200 --> 00:05:03.060
just if you look down from the hood,
131
00:05:03.060 --> 00:05:04.770
we could see down to our neck.
132
00:05:04.770 --> 00:05:07.355
We could see it was dark, obviously.
133
00:05:07.355 --> 00:05:08.520
And so, we walked around for many hours
134
00:05:08.520 --> 00:05:10.080
and the dogs were barking and there was going...
135
00:05:10.080 --> 00:05:11.610
Punching us, kicking us, and then
136
00:05:11.610 --> 00:05:12.960
they would throw us to the floor,
137
00:05:12.960 --> 00:05:17.960
and they would say to us, "Sleep or stay still."
138
00:05:18.990 --> 00:05:20.800
Then after a couple of minutes,
139
00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:22.800
maybe half an hour, they would get you up,
140
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:24.527
and make you walk around in a circle again.
141
00:05:24.527 --> 00:05:26.183
And that continued to happen for maybe,
142
00:05:26.183 --> 00:05:28.110
four or five hours.
143
00:05:28.110 --> 00:05:30.400
After that, they took us to this place.
144
00:05:30.400 --> 00:05:33.700
They took the ropes out of our arms,
145
00:05:33.700 --> 00:05:35.847
they made us kneel on our knees and obviously,
146
00:05:35.847 --> 00:05:37.180
our hands were tied behind our back
147
00:05:37.180 --> 00:05:39.050
with them plastic ties, our ankles
148
00:05:39.050 --> 00:05:40.850
were also tied with plastic ties.
149
00:05:40.850 --> 00:05:41.820
Sand bag over the head and we had
150
00:05:41.820 --> 00:05:44.950
to stay kneeling, like in that position,
151
00:05:44.950 --> 00:05:47.183
in a kneeling position on gravel.
152
00:05:48.420 --> 00:05:49.310
I think it was about two hours
153
00:05:49.310 --> 00:05:50.810
I had to stay in the position.
154
00:05:52.410 --> 00:05:55.150
Then they came, two soldiers,
155
00:05:55.150 --> 00:05:57.260
they lifted me, physically lifted me.
156
00:05:57.260 --> 00:06:00.000
Lifted me up, they dragged me to a tent
157
00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:03.830
where I was thrown to the floor, face down first.
158
00:06:03.830 --> 00:06:05.430
And I think they got a Stanley knife,
159
00:06:05.430 --> 00:06:06.840
they cut through my clothes,
160
00:06:06.840 --> 00:06:08.390
stripped me naked again.
161
00:06:08.390 --> 00:06:10.740
Took my hood off and they done
162
00:06:10.740 --> 00:06:12.560
a cavity search on me.
163
00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:15.190
They took me to another tent
164
00:06:15.190 --> 00:06:16.673
where photographs were taken.
165
00:06:18.370 --> 00:06:21.830
My DNA was also taken, a swab from my mouth.
166
00:06:21.830 --> 00:06:25.340
Also, they took a sample,
167
00:06:25.340 --> 00:06:26.350
a few strands
168
00:06:26.350 --> 00:06:29.650
of my beard hair, and took photos,
169
00:06:29.650 --> 00:06:30.977
and fingerprints, I think.
170
00:06:30.977 --> 00:06:33.050
And then eventually, they took me
171
00:06:33.050 --> 00:06:37.160
to it's like a barn,
172
00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:37.993
similar type look,
173
00:06:37.993 --> 00:06:40.113
it was like a metal hanger,
174
00:06:41.080 --> 00:06:43.490
which was divided off with barbed wire
175
00:06:43.490 --> 00:06:45.337
to make cells.
176
00:06:45.337 --> 00:06:46.450
Mm.
177
00:06:46.450 --> 00:06:47.960
And in each cell, there was about, I think,
178
00:06:47.960 --> 00:06:49.820
10 people per cell.
179
00:06:49.820 --> 00:06:52.330
And they threw me into the cell, still naked,
180
00:06:52.330 --> 00:06:53.950
then they gave me some clothes to wear,
181
00:06:53.950 --> 00:06:56.400
which were Pakistani clothes.
182
00:06:56.400 --> 00:06:57.740
The Pakistani traditional clothes,
183
00:06:57.740 --> 00:06:58.930
they gave us that.
184
00:06:58.930 --> 00:07:01.370
So, I wore that and I went to sleep.
185
00:07:01.370 --> 00:07:02.203
They told me to sleep.
186
00:07:02.203 --> 00:07:03.570
They gave me a blanket,
187
00:07:03.570 --> 00:07:06.570
which was kind of like A fleecy type blanket.
188
00:07:06.570 --> 00:07:08.360
I went to sleep for the night.
189
00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:10.580
I was not allowed, I was told basically
190
00:07:10.580 --> 00:07:11.820
if I tried to move,
191
00:07:11.820 --> 00:07:13.120
or tried to do anything stupid,
192
00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:15.350
then I would have get shot because they had,
193
00:07:15.350 --> 00:07:16.183
on the left and the right
194
00:07:16.183 --> 00:07:17.970
they had two tower guards,
195
00:07:17.970 --> 00:07:19.080
who were watching down.
196
00:07:19.080 --> 00:07:21.180
We was not allowed to communicate or talk.
197
00:07:23.090 --> 00:07:26.200
So, the night passed, and the next morning,
198
00:07:26.200 --> 00:07:27.033
I was given a number.
199
00:07:27.033 --> 00:07:28.450
I was also given a wristband on the first day
200
00:07:28.450 --> 00:07:29.480
when I came.
201
00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:31.293
My number was 102.
202
00:07:32.321 --> 00:07:34.170
They call my number in the morning
203
00:07:34.170 --> 00:07:35.840
and I was taken out from the...
204
00:07:35.840 --> 00:07:39.450
From my cell, and the way the procedure is,
205
00:07:39.450 --> 00:07:40.340
when they call your number,
206
00:07:40.340 --> 00:07:42.060
you have to lie down on the floor
207
00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:44.973
and you have to have your hands on your head.
208
00:07:45.860 --> 00:07:48.290
As so, with your fingers interlocked
209
00:07:48.290 --> 00:07:50.570
and your legs spread wide on the floor.
210
00:07:50.570 --> 00:07:53.210
And two soldiers would run in, sorry,
211
00:07:53.210 --> 00:07:54.470
three soldiers would rush in.
212
00:07:54.470 --> 00:07:57.470
One would literally drop on top of your shoulders
213
00:07:57.470 --> 00:07:58.520
so you couldn't move,
214
00:07:58.520 --> 00:08:00.570
the other one would grab your arm.
215
00:08:00.570 --> 00:08:02.800
Two of them grabbing one hand each.
216
00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:04.920
They take one arm, put it behind you,
217
00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:07.300
cuff that one and bring that one down again,
218
00:08:07.300 --> 00:08:08.250
and cuff that.
219
00:08:08.250 --> 00:08:09.083
Then they would drag you up,
220
00:08:09.083 --> 00:08:10.420
put a sack over your head,
221
00:08:10.420 --> 00:08:12.130
and they marched me off to a tent,
222
00:08:12.130 --> 00:08:14.300
which was my first interrogation I had
223
00:08:14.300 --> 00:08:16.220
with an American soldier.
224
00:08:16.220 --> 00:08:18.900
I sat on the floor and he asked me
225
00:08:18.900 --> 00:08:20.530
basic questions, what's my name?
226
00:08:20.530 --> 00:08:22.240
Date of birth, so-and-so,
227
00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:23.300
why I was in Afghanistan,
228
00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:24.303
how I was captured.
229
00:08:26.242 --> 00:08:27.340
And any contact details if I wanted
230
00:08:27.340 --> 00:08:31.833
to tell anybody that I was in that place.
231
00:08:33.130 --> 00:08:34.450
He asked me if I wanted to inform anybody,
232
00:08:34.450 --> 00:08:36.100
I said, "Inform the home office."
233
00:08:37.560 --> 00:08:39.780
And then he said, he said to me
234
00:08:39.780 --> 00:08:41.710
that he will speak to me later again.
235
00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:43.520
So, then they took me to a different...
236
00:08:43.520 --> 00:08:45.050
Instead of taking me back to the hangar,
237
00:08:45.050 --> 00:08:49.720
they took me to the tents,
238
00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:51.973
which was the...
239
00:08:51.973 --> 00:08:54.580
They had tents erected and there was three tents,
240
00:08:54.580 --> 00:08:56.650
and it was barb wired off.
241
00:08:56.650 --> 00:08:58.120
So, it's like a makeshift prison,
242
00:08:58.120 --> 00:08:59.950
if you wanna call it.
243
00:08:59.950 --> 00:09:00.790
In each tent they had
244
00:09:00.790 --> 00:09:04.600
about 20 detainees sleeping, or staying,
245
00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:06.310
but obviously the three tents were within
246
00:09:06.310 --> 00:09:07.930
the same boundary.
247
00:09:07.930 --> 00:09:12.020
Later on, there was all made single one tent,
248
00:09:12.020 --> 00:09:14.543
so 20 people per cage, you can call it.
249
00:09:16.020 --> 00:09:17.640
Then they stripped my clothes again
250
00:09:17.640 --> 00:09:20.853
and they gave me the blue boiler suit.
251
00:09:22.891 --> 00:09:25.830
And then, I stayed there
252
00:09:26.810 --> 00:09:28.780
for six weeks.
253
00:09:28.780 --> 00:09:31.770
Obviously, in that condition in Guantanamo.
254
00:09:31.770 --> 00:09:35.310
Kandahar was a very odd place you can call it
255
00:09:35.310 --> 00:09:37.510
because in the day, temperatures will reach,
256
00:09:38.800 --> 00:09:40.940
probably 45 to 50 degrees.
257
00:09:40.940 --> 00:09:42.370
So, it'd be extremely hot
258
00:09:42.370 --> 00:09:43.627
and we had to obviously sit outside,
259
00:09:43.627 --> 00:09:44.537
we couldn't sit in the tent.
260
00:09:44.537 --> 00:09:46.440
And the flaps of the tent,
261
00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:48.780
the canvas on the side were always rolled up.
262
00:09:48.780 --> 00:09:50.160
We were not allowed to bring them down
263
00:09:50.160 --> 00:09:52.610
because they wanted to see us, keep an eye on us.
264
00:09:53.500 --> 00:09:54.333
Even throughout the day,
265
00:09:54.333 --> 00:09:56.360
we were not allowed to move.
266
00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:58.103
We were not allowed to talk to nobody.
267
00:09:59.870 --> 00:10:02.433
Food was given three times a day,
268
00:10:03.311 --> 00:10:05.020
but it was a limited amount of food.
269
00:10:05.020 --> 00:10:08.480
We had MRE's to eat, which our meal ready
270
00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:10.240
to eat military food.
271
00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:12.677
And they would literally empty everything out
272
00:10:12.677 --> 00:10:14.560
and just give us the main meal.
273
00:10:14.560 --> 00:10:16.257
So, you know like you have the main meal,
274
00:10:16.257 --> 00:10:18.290
you have a dessert, you have crackers.
275
00:10:18.290 --> 00:10:21.480
You have peanut butter, you have
276
00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:23.750
a few more side things.
277
00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:24.717
Drinks, and so-and-so,
278
00:10:24.717 --> 00:10:26.007
but they will take everything out,
279
00:10:26.007 --> 00:10:27.350
and to give you the main packet,
280
00:10:27.350 --> 00:10:29.090
the actual main dinner.
281
00:10:29.090 --> 00:10:32.020
So, as you can imagine, it's not enough
282
00:10:32.020 --> 00:10:36.770
for us to eat, but it was enough
283
00:10:36.770 --> 00:10:37.820
for us to go on
284
00:10:37.820 --> 00:10:38.860
for the next meal.
285
00:10:38.860 --> 00:10:40.183
It was just about enough.
286
00:10:42.260 --> 00:10:46.090
And we were taken to interrogation
287
00:10:46.090 --> 00:10:48.659
on a regular basis, and it was the same method,
288
00:10:48.659 --> 00:10:49.830
the way they would take you out.
289
00:10:49.830 --> 00:10:50.890
Two, three soldiers come in,
290
00:10:50.890 --> 00:10:52.590
one literally jumps on top of you,
291
00:10:53.510 --> 00:10:55.420
another two un-cuff you, and they put
292
00:10:55.420 --> 00:10:57.283
a sand bag over your head, push you back down.
293
00:10:57.283 --> 00:10:58.520
Then they would march you off
294
00:10:58.520 --> 00:11:00.520
to your interrogation.
295
00:11:00.520 --> 00:11:03.610
Now, interrogation, it would vary
296
00:11:03.610 --> 00:11:05.510
on who the interrogator was,
297
00:11:05.510 --> 00:11:07.450
in terms of how harsh you would get treated,
298
00:11:07.450 --> 00:11:09.640
or how good you get treated.
299
00:11:09.640 --> 00:11:11.410
If there's a good treatment, that means
300
00:11:11.410 --> 00:11:13.500
you get a chair, they would un-cuff your hands,
301
00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:16.977
put it in the front, un-cuff your...
302
00:11:17.826 --> 00:11:19.330
Cuff your hands forward, or sometimes,
303
00:11:19.330 --> 00:11:21.330
they wouldn't cuff your hands.
304
00:11:21.330 --> 00:11:22.423
It depends on the person
305
00:11:22.423 --> 00:11:23.803
who was interrogating you.
306
00:11:24.780 --> 00:11:27.020
If he was a bad guy, then they would make
307
00:11:27.020 --> 00:11:28.530
us sit on the floor and kneel on the floor,
308
00:11:28.530 --> 00:11:30.897
with your handcuffs, hands tied behind the back.
309
00:11:30.897 --> 00:11:33.410
And there always will be a soldier
310
00:11:33.410 --> 00:11:37.790
with a M16, or a nine millimeter pointing towards
311
00:11:37.790 --> 00:11:39.970
you while you getting interrogated.
312
00:11:39.970 --> 00:11:42.323
So, you're always being interrogated at gunpoint.
313
00:11:43.760 --> 00:11:45.750
The interrogation method would always save...
314
00:11:45.750 --> 00:11:48.080
Always repetitive, it was always,
315
00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:49.040
what's your name?
316
00:11:49.040 --> 00:11:49.873
Where you from?
317
00:11:49.873 --> 00:11:52.060
Even though you've said about 10 times before,
318
00:11:52.060 --> 00:11:54.390
they would always comment and say the same thing.
319
00:11:54.390 --> 00:11:55.787
And it seemed to me that never actually,
320
00:11:55.787 --> 00:11:57.980
seemed to share the files.
321
00:11:57.980 --> 00:11:59.800
Which was quite bizarre,
322
00:11:59.800 --> 00:12:00.977
especially when you in that,
323
00:12:00.977 --> 00:12:03.170
and if you mean intelligence officer,
324
00:12:03.170 --> 00:12:04.753
you would expect to share your information
325
00:12:04.753 --> 00:12:08.330
with your colleagues, or whoever they are.
326
00:12:08.330 --> 00:12:10.123
But obviously, that wasn't the case.
327
00:12:13.863 --> 00:12:14.920
And worst case scenario is,
328
00:12:14.920 --> 00:12:18.640
you would get beaten up, physically punch,
329
00:12:18.640 --> 00:12:20.850
punching, they would punch you in your nose.
330
00:12:20.850 --> 00:12:23.811
Why would they beat you up?
331
00:12:23.811 --> 00:12:25.510
Well, main reason is because you're not...
332
00:12:25.510 --> 00:12:27.850
They think that you're not being cooperative.
333
00:12:27.850 --> 00:12:29.120
You're not cooperating with them.
334
00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:32.480
You're not giving them as enough information
335
00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:34.427
as they think that you need to give.
336
00:12:34.427 --> 00:12:35.260
They think you're lying,
337
00:12:35.260 --> 00:12:38.130
or you withheld the information
338
00:12:38.130 --> 00:12:42.070
about Bin Laden, or Al-Quada, or the Taliban.
339
00:12:42.070 --> 00:12:43.560
And so-and-so, that was the reason basically
340
00:12:43.560 --> 00:12:45.702
why you would get beaten up.
341
00:12:45.702 --> 00:12:46.889
(chuckles) It was if they didn't like
342
00:12:46.889 --> 00:12:48.650
the way you looked, or if you was cocky,
343
00:12:48.650 --> 00:12:49.800
or if you were arrogant in terms
344
00:12:49.800 --> 00:12:51.780
of how you reply, how you talk to them.
345
00:12:51.780 --> 00:12:52.870
Then that would give them that reason
346
00:12:52.870 --> 00:12:54.320
to come and attack you
347
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.943
in whatever way they wanted.
348
00:12:58.010 --> 00:12:59.387
In total, I thin, in Kandahar,
349
00:12:59.387 --> 00:13:01.940
I went to interrogation maybe five times.
350
00:13:01.940 --> 00:13:05.160
Four times it was with the Americans,
351
00:13:05.160 --> 00:13:06.330
and once with the FBI, three times
352
00:13:06.330 --> 00:13:08.050
with the military intelligence.
353
00:13:08.050 --> 00:13:09.840
And I think once with the home office,
354
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:11.040
the British home office,
355
00:13:12.238 --> 00:13:15.093
there was a guy who came over on the day
356
00:13:15.093 --> 00:13:16.170
I was actually flying out.
357
00:13:16.170 --> 00:13:17.170
He came to visit me.
358
00:13:18.689 --> 00:13:21.570
And the conditions inside the cages,
359
00:13:21.570 --> 00:13:23.680
obviously in the daytime, it's extremely hot.
360
00:13:23.680 --> 00:13:25.850
In the night, it would be extremely cold.
361
00:13:25.850 --> 00:13:26.700
They used to give us...
362
00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:28.147
The only good thing they did for us
363
00:13:28.147 --> 00:13:30.580
was they gave us enough water.
364
00:13:30.580 --> 00:13:33.050
They would actually force us to drink the water,
365
00:13:33.050 --> 00:13:35.160
and they used to give us 1.5 liter bottle
366
00:13:35.160 --> 00:13:37.600
per meal time.
367
00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:39.370
So, in the morning we had to stand in front
368
00:13:39.370 --> 00:13:41.010
of the soldier and drink the whole 1.5 liter
369
00:13:41.914 --> 00:13:43.030
of water in one go.
370
00:13:43.030 --> 00:13:44.970
Otherwise you get punished.
371
00:13:44.970 --> 00:13:47.340
So, that's the only good thing they did.
372
00:13:47.340 --> 00:13:48.853
So, that we didn't dehydrate.
373
00:13:51.140 --> 00:13:53.310
Other than that, they would
374
00:13:53.310 --> 00:13:54.570
do random cell search,
375
00:13:54.570 --> 00:13:56.550
which is as they call shake down.
376
00:13:56.550 --> 00:13:57.660
And where everybody had to go
377
00:13:57.660 --> 00:14:01.220
to the back of the tents, and obviously,
378
00:14:01.220 --> 00:14:03.360
you kneel down with your hands on your head
379
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:05.770
and on the other side of the barbed wire,
380
00:14:05.770 --> 00:14:06.603
they would have two guys
381
00:14:06.603 --> 00:14:09.600
with M16's pointed towards you.
382
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.440
Because from the other side, from the door,
383
00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.260
from the main entrance you had
384
00:14:13.260 --> 00:14:16.260
about four, or five MP's coming in
385
00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:18.330
without any weapons.
386
00:14:18.330 --> 00:14:23.240
Because there was about 20 or 60 per cage,
387
00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:25.400
so they couldn't take that risk
388
00:14:25.400 --> 00:14:26.310
of bringing weapons in just
389
00:14:26.310 --> 00:14:28.912
in case someone jumps out and takes the weapon,
390
00:14:28.912 --> 00:14:29.780
so and so.
391
00:14:29.780 --> 00:14:30.797
So, we had to go out the back,
392
00:14:30.797 --> 00:14:31.813
and they would come in, they would do
393
00:14:31.813 --> 00:14:32.760
a cell search.
394
00:14:32.760 --> 00:14:35.640
They would throw the Quran on many occasions,
395
00:14:35.640 --> 00:14:37.180
in the toilet.
396
00:14:37.180 --> 00:14:39.730
The total facility was basically,
397
00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:42.897
you had a bucket, just a normal steel bucket,
398
00:14:42.897 --> 00:14:44.934
and it was open air.
399
00:14:44.934 --> 00:14:46.120
And you had to do your business
400
00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:47.220
in front of everybody.
401
00:14:48.380 --> 00:14:51.040
To urinate, they actually dug a massive...
402
00:14:51.040 --> 00:14:55.610
For every cage,
403
00:14:55.610 --> 00:14:57.300
or tent you can call,
404
00:14:57.300 --> 00:14:58.930
they had dug, obviously before
405
00:14:58.930 --> 00:15:00.943
they actually erected this make shift prison,
406
00:15:00.943 --> 00:15:02.510
make shift things.
407
00:15:02.510 --> 00:15:05.160
They actually dug the ground,
408
00:15:05.160 --> 00:15:06.560
and it's like a soak away.
409
00:15:06.560 --> 00:15:07.690
When you have an extension,
410
00:15:07.690 --> 00:15:09.920
they have a soak away, and the same thing.
411
00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:11.180
They had a soak away, and they had like
412
00:15:11.180 --> 00:15:14.370
a circle mesh where you urinate in.
413
00:15:14.370 --> 00:15:15.950
So, obviously when you urinate,
414
00:15:15.950 --> 00:15:18.930
you were taken the thing.
415
00:15:18.930 --> 00:15:20.530
You're there and you have female soldiers
416
00:15:20.530 --> 00:15:23.217
walking up and down, obviously looking at you.
417
00:15:23.217 --> 00:15:25.300
And one, especially when you're urinating,
418
00:15:25.300 --> 00:15:26.960
they wanna look, and they would stop.
419
00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:28.410
Even the men, they would stop
420
00:15:28.410 --> 00:15:30.163
and they would look, and I think they did that
421
00:15:30.163 --> 00:15:31.500
to actually humiliate us.
422
00:15:31.500 --> 00:15:34.100
It was not because they was being pervs,
423
00:15:34.100 --> 00:15:36.047
or they could be, I don't know,
424
00:15:36.047 --> 00:15:37.782
but it seemed to me, they were doing it
425
00:15:37.782 --> 00:15:39.570
to kind of degrade us.
426
00:15:39.570 --> 00:15:41.850
Even when we have to go for a number two,
427
00:15:41.850 --> 00:15:43.590
if you can call it.
428
00:15:43.590 --> 00:15:44.437
They would actually stand and look at you,
429
00:15:44.437 --> 00:15:46.800
and it was very difficult to...
430
00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:48.250
When you're on the toilet,
431
00:15:48.250 --> 00:15:50.960
it's kind of impossible when you know
432
00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:52.100
someone's watching you,
433
00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:53.509
it's very hard to relieve yourself.
434
00:15:53.509 --> 00:15:55.290
It doesn't come.
435
00:15:55.290 --> 00:15:56.299
Right.
436
00:15:56.299 --> 00:15:58.460
And instead of getting relief out of it,
437
00:15:58.460 --> 00:16:00.570
you get pains because you can't go.
438
00:16:00.570 --> 00:16:01.500
And that would be the case
439
00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:03.230
that happened throughout six weeks.
440
00:16:03.230 --> 00:16:04.063
And we complained about it, and they said,
441
00:16:04.063 --> 00:16:05.300
"Well, it's our procedure.
442
00:16:05.300 --> 00:16:06.990
We have to see what exactly you are doing."
443
00:16:06.990 --> 00:16:08.480
So, if we're taking a wee,
444
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:10.193
and are you gonna watch us?
445
00:16:11.531 --> 00:16:13.938
So, it was just something they did
446
00:16:13.938 --> 00:16:17.003
to kind of humiliate us basically.
447
00:16:18.410 --> 00:16:20.520
We wasn't given any kind of insulation,
448
00:16:20.520 --> 00:16:23.090
cause obviously the ground was not...
449
00:16:23.090 --> 00:16:25.570
It was not grass, it was just like rubble,
450
00:16:25.570 --> 00:16:27.220
you can call it.
451
00:16:27.220 --> 00:16:31.710
Like normal turf, it was like bricks, and glass,
452
00:16:31.710 --> 00:16:32.600
and so and so.
453
00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:33.790
So, obviously, we was not given any kind
454
00:16:33.790 --> 00:16:35.450
of insulation mats to put down,
455
00:16:35.450 --> 00:16:37.760
or a sheet to put down to sleep on top of.
456
00:16:37.760 --> 00:16:41.060
So, we had to sleep on the ground, basically.
457
00:16:41.060 --> 00:16:42.400
We was not given no pillows, obviously.
458
00:16:42.400 --> 00:16:45.197
As they would say, "It's not boot camp."
459
00:16:46.530 --> 00:16:47.747
On many occasions, they would say that,
460
00:16:47.747 --> 00:16:49.070
and if you wanted anything
461
00:16:49.070 --> 00:16:50.680
they would say it's not boot camp.
462
00:16:50.680 --> 00:16:53.000
That was the answer for everything.
463
00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:54.720
They gave us blankets, which
464
00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.770
was like made of fleece, it was a fleecy blanket.
465
00:16:57.770 --> 00:16:58.841
We had about two of them each,
466
00:16:58.841 --> 00:17:03.050
but Kandahar was extremely cold cause the water
467
00:17:03.050 --> 00:17:05.070
would actually freeze up overnight.
468
00:17:05.070 --> 00:17:05.903
That's how cold it was.
469
00:17:05.903 --> 00:17:07.000
So, you can just imagine.
470
00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:09.200
Temperature was actually dropped below zero.
471
00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:13.040
So, it was impossible to sleep in the night
472
00:17:13.040 --> 00:17:14.160
because it's too cold, and your feet
473
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:15.090
are freezing, your hands are freezing.
474
00:17:15.090 --> 00:17:16.720
You're freezing yourself, cause we had
475
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.010
a thin boiler suit, we didn't have no long johns,
476
00:17:19.010 --> 00:17:24.010
or any thermal underwear, you can call it.
477
00:17:24.670 --> 00:17:27.710
So, it's impossible to sleep in the night
478
00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:29.410
and it's impossible to sleep in the day
479
00:17:29.410 --> 00:17:30.730
because it's too hot, and we wasn't actually
480
00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:31.980
allowed to sleep in the day.
481
00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:34.000
Cause they would come throughout the day,
482
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:35.134
every two, three hours, they would come
483
00:17:35.134 --> 00:17:36.840
and do something called a headcount,
484
00:17:36.840 --> 00:17:38.987
which they would come and they would shout out,
485
00:17:38.987 --> 00:17:41.070
"Headcount, headcount," and we all had to run
486
00:17:41.070 --> 00:17:43.293
to the front of the tent.
487
00:17:43.293 --> 00:17:45.590
And we had to stand in a line, and we had to show
488
00:17:45.590 --> 00:17:48.110
them our wristbands with the number,
489
00:17:48.110 --> 00:17:51.310
and he would mark off 102 present,
490
00:17:51.310 --> 00:17:53.588
601 is present, and they would call your number
491
00:17:53.588 --> 00:17:54.570
and you have to say yes.
492
00:17:54.570 --> 00:17:56.310
It's like being in school again,
493
00:17:56.310 --> 00:17:57.910
and they would do that every three hours.
494
00:17:57.910 --> 00:17:58.743
They would kind of do that,
495
00:17:58.743 --> 00:18:00.110
which was kind of ridiculous,
496
00:18:00.110 --> 00:18:02.090
because they have shift change three times.
497
00:18:02.090 --> 00:18:04.800
So, ideally they need to do it three times
498
00:18:04.800 --> 00:18:06.270
because it's a new shift and the shift stays on
499
00:18:06.270 --> 00:18:09.650
for eight hours, 24 hours is free.
500
00:18:09.650 --> 00:18:11.170
So, I think it was done
501
00:18:11.170 --> 00:18:15.420
because to make us more weak and less drowsy.
502
00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:16.253
So, we don't...
503
00:18:16.253 --> 00:18:17.520
One of the reasons they gave us is like,
504
00:18:17.520 --> 00:18:18.610
we don't want you to get strong.
505
00:18:18.610 --> 00:18:20.800
The reason we wasn't giving enough food,
506
00:18:20.800 --> 00:18:23.110
they didn't want us to have any energy in us,
507
00:18:23.110 --> 00:18:24.550
so we don't attack them.
508
00:18:24.550 --> 00:18:27.650
They wanted to keep us tired and dehy...
509
00:18:27.650 --> 00:18:30.820
Not dehydrated, but very tired and fragile.
510
00:18:30.820 --> 00:18:31.810
You know what I mean?
511
00:18:31.810 --> 00:18:32.900
They wouldn't alow us to exercise
512
00:18:32.900 --> 00:18:34.050
because they said to us, "If you exercise,
513
00:18:34.050 --> 00:18:35.798
you can get stronger, and you don't want you-"
514
00:18:35.798 --> 00:18:36.750
They told you that?
515
00:18:36.750 --> 00:18:38.370
Yeah, we was not allowed to exercise.
516
00:18:38.370 --> 00:18:40.587
So, they didn't want us to get strong
517
00:18:40.587 --> 00:18:42.820
and overpower them in any way.
518
00:18:42.820 --> 00:18:46.020
Even, I mean, if the one guy tries something,
519
00:18:46.020 --> 00:18:47.640
they can't afford to take that risk.
520
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:49.050
Even if it's one person,
521
00:18:49.050 --> 00:18:51.337
even though we wouldn't get nowhere. (chuckles)
522
00:18:51.337 --> 00:18:52.170
Do you know what I mean?
523
00:18:52.170 --> 00:18:53.003
(interviewer chuckles)
524
00:18:53.003 --> 00:18:53.836
But it's something that they said
525
00:18:53.836 --> 00:18:54.669
that we don't want you to get strong
526
00:18:54.669 --> 00:18:56.570
so that we was not allowed to do certain things
527
00:18:56.570 --> 00:18:59.183
to kill our time, to pass our time.
528
00:19:00.790 --> 00:19:03.260
So, that was for the first...
529
00:19:03.260 --> 00:19:05.780
That was my six weeks in Guantanamo.
530
00:19:05.780 --> 00:19:07.005
I was actually not given any-
531
00:19:07.005 --> 00:19:07.838
I'm just gonna do
532
00:19:07.838 --> 00:19:09.060
one thing before, I'm sorry.
533
00:19:09.060 --> 00:19:10.450
I'm getting, it's great...
534
00:19:10.450 --> 00:19:11.467
We're rolling. Yeah, it's fine.
535
00:19:11.467 --> 00:19:15.350
So, I stayed there for six weeks
536
00:19:15.350 --> 00:19:17.470
and I was never actually given any reason
537
00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:19.440
why I was arrested in the first place,
538
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:21.820
or I was handed over by the Northern Alliance
539
00:19:21.820 --> 00:19:23.130
to the Americans.
540
00:19:23.130 --> 00:19:26.020
And I wasn't actually given any reason whatsoever,
541
00:19:26.020 --> 00:19:27.410
why I was being detained.
542
00:19:27.410 --> 00:19:29.730
When you met with the Americans
543
00:19:29.730 --> 00:19:32.660
and then you said you met with the Brits.
544
00:19:32.660 --> 00:19:34.400
Did the Brits do anything differently
545
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:37.170
from the Americans in terms of the interrogation?
546
00:19:37.170 --> 00:19:39.153
Well, the actual day I was leaving,
547
00:19:40.270 --> 00:19:41.640
just before about maybe 20 minutes
548
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:44.660
before I boarded the plane, the Brit came,
549
00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:46.060
and I think he was from the foreign office.
550
00:19:46.060 --> 00:19:48.130
And he didn't really say much,
551
00:19:48.130 --> 00:19:49.130
he just said that...
552
00:19:50.189 --> 00:19:52.050
He took my name and my details, and he said,
553
00:19:52.050 --> 00:19:55.810
We will notify your family of your whereabouts.
554
00:19:55.810 --> 00:19:58.390
And he just said that...
555
00:19:58.390 --> 00:19:59.920
I asked him where am I going
556
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:02.760
because I was in Cuba because some
557
00:20:02.760 --> 00:20:05.123
of the soldiers told me that maybe you're moving
558
00:20:05.123 --> 00:20:07.370
over to Cuba, and maybe not.
559
00:20:07.370 --> 00:20:08.403
So, when they put me in the orange boiler suit,
560
00:20:08.403 --> 00:20:09.720
I kind of had an idea.
561
00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:10.570
Even though I never knew,
562
00:20:10.570 --> 00:20:12.540
never heard of Cuba in my life, I never knew,
563
00:20:12.540 --> 00:20:13.643
never heard of it.
564
00:20:15.090 --> 00:20:17.960
So, I thought actually Cuba is probably a state
565
00:20:19.070 --> 00:20:19.963
of the United States.
566
00:20:19.963 --> 00:20:20.796
(interviewer laughs)
567
00:20:20.796 --> 00:20:23.110
That's what I thought, maybe somewhere close by.
568
00:20:23.110 --> 00:20:24.340
Obviously, it is close by to Florida,
569
00:20:24.340 --> 00:20:26.513
but I never actually knew Cuba.
570
00:20:31.719 --> 00:20:32.552
So, the day I was going,
571
00:20:32.552 --> 00:20:33.630
just about 20 minutes before I boarded,
572
00:20:33.630 --> 00:20:36.190
he came, sat me down, and he just spoke to me.
573
00:20:36.190 --> 00:20:37.870
He said, your name and so and so.
574
00:20:37.870 --> 00:20:39.180
He said, "I'm from the foreign office,
575
00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:40.013
how are you?"
576
00:20:40.013 --> 00:20:40.872
Is your health okay?"
577
00:20:40.872 --> 00:20:42.920
I said, "Yeah, how do I look? Do I look fine?"
578
00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:44.453
And he said, "Well, I have to ask."
579
00:20:44.453 --> 00:20:46.810
What a stupid question to ask.
580
00:20:46.810 --> 00:20:48.440
I'm tied up like an animal and you're asking me
581
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:49.700
how am I, how am I doing? (chuckles)
582
00:20:49.700 --> 00:20:51.950
It's like it's a joke.
583
00:20:51.950 --> 00:20:53.167
And he said to me,
584
00:20:53.167 --> 00:20:55.270
"Basically, we'll notify your family,"
585
00:20:55.270 --> 00:20:58.620
and I asked him, "Where am I being taken?
586
00:20:58.620 --> 00:20:59.610
Am I going back to the UK?"
587
00:20:59.610 --> 00:21:00.443
He said, "I don't know.
588
00:21:00.443 --> 00:21:03.090
I can't give you that kind of information."
589
00:21:03.090 --> 00:21:05.100
I said, "Well, what did you come for?
590
00:21:05.100 --> 00:21:06.780
You shouldn't have even bothered coming.
591
00:21:06.780 --> 00:21:11.320
So, basically the day I was taken to Guan,
592
00:21:11.320 --> 00:21:12.800
well on the plane.
593
00:21:12.800 --> 00:21:14.120
They took me out my cell,
594
00:21:14.120 --> 00:21:16.150
they marched me to this tent.
595
00:21:16.150 --> 00:21:17.800
They stripped my clothes,
596
00:21:17.800 --> 00:21:18.730
and by the time we had...
597
00:21:18.730 --> 00:21:21.000
I had long hair at the time, and obviously,
598
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:21.950
my beard had grown.
599
00:21:23.580 --> 00:21:25.970
Excuse me, and obviously being in that condition,
600
00:21:25.970 --> 00:21:28.020
I mean, prior to being arrested by the Americans,
601
00:21:28.020 --> 00:21:30.010
I was obviously imprisoned in Sheboygan
602
00:21:30.010 --> 00:21:30.960
for a month.
603
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.220
And it was not even not very hygienic.
604
00:21:33.220 --> 00:21:36.410
It was very unhygienic and we had head lice
605
00:21:36.410 --> 00:21:40.447
and body lice, so everybody had lice in the camp.
606
00:21:40.447 --> 00:21:43.440
And so, they stripped me down completely,
607
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:47.350
they shaved my hair, they put the lice kind
608
00:21:47.350 --> 00:21:49.290
of medicine on my hair and my armpits,
609
00:21:49.290 --> 00:21:51.160
and on my private parts, just to kill
610
00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:51.993
all the lice.
611
00:21:51.993 --> 00:21:53.460
On my chest, wherever I had hair, really,
612
00:21:53.460 --> 00:21:54.293
all over my body.
613
00:21:54.293 --> 00:21:56.910
They washed me down with this kind of a watery...
614
00:21:58.552 --> 00:21:59.385
Solution.
615
00:21:59.385 --> 00:22:00.800
Solution to kill the lice.
616
00:22:00.800 --> 00:22:01.980
Then they took me to a different room
617
00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:05.800
and they gave me the orange boiler suit,
618
00:22:05.800 --> 00:22:06.633
which I wore.
619
00:22:07.527 --> 00:22:09.860
They gave me a blue jacket and they put goggles
620
00:22:09.860 --> 00:22:10.693
on my eyes.
621
00:22:10.693 --> 00:22:11.526
You had ear...
622
00:22:11.526 --> 00:22:13.390
And they put a wooly cap as well,
623
00:22:13.390 --> 00:22:16.760
and the ear muffs, and they put mittens
624
00:22:16.760 --> 00:22:17.810
on my hands as well.
625
00:22:17.810 --> 00:22:19.570
Then they cuffed my hands together,
626
00:22:19.570 --> 00:22:22.100
and usually the cuffs have slack in it,
627
00:22:22.100 --> 00:22:23.240
but they had these like black things
628
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:24.830
they put in the middle, so that you can't
629
00:22:24.830 --> 00:22:26.878
actually move your hands.
630
00:22:26.878 --> 00:22:28.890
It was like this extra piece that comes with it.
631
00:22:28.890 --> 00:22:32.250
So, then obviously a three piece,
632
00:22:32.250 --> 00:22:33.740
as they call it, a three-piece suit.
633
00:22:33.740 --> 00:22:35.680
So, then a chain goes around your back,
634
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:39.470
padlocked and a chain from here, where your...
635
00:22:39.470 --> 00:22:40.303
A belly chain thing.
636
00:22:40.303 --> 00:22:41.660
Yeah, a belly chain thing from there,
637
00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:42.620
there's like a circle ring.
638
00:22:42.620 --> 00:22:43.630
Ring.
639
00:22:43.630 --> 00:22:45.920
And another piece goes down to your leg,
640
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:49.080
and then it's like leg irons, like shackles.
641
00:22:49.080 --> 00:22:51.220
And they put the gloves on
642
00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:54.290
and they put masking tape, no duck tape
643
00:22:54.290 --> 00:22:55.880
around the gloves so we can't take
644
00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:57.530
our gloves off.
645
00:22:57.530 --> 00:22:58.790
Then they took me to a different tent
646
00:22:58.790 --> 00:23:00.620
from what I presumed.
647
00:23:00.620 --> 00:23:02.130
It was a tent and I had to sit down
648
00:23:02.130 --> 00:23:05.330
with my legs crossed for maybe like seven hours.
649
00:23:05.330 --> 00:23:06.980
And obviously, it was painful.
650
00:23:06.980 --> 00:23:09.033
Sitting there with your legs crossed for ages,
651
00:23:09.033 --> 00:23:11.240
and the shackles are kind of digging
652
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:12.690
into your legs, and it's uncomfortable
653
00:23:12.690 --> 00:23:15.020
sitting there for so many hours, you can't move.
654
00:23:15.020 --> 00:23:18.080
Then about, it was daytime when they took
655
00:23:18.080 --> 00:23:20.760
me out my cage, out my tent.
656
00:23:20.760 --> 00:23:21.593
Before I boarded the plane,
657
00:23:21.593 --> 00:23:22.426
obviously got annoyed,
658
00:23:22.426 --> 00:23:24.090
so I was there for many hours.
659
00:23:24.090 --> 00:23:26.420
They gave us a piece of bread to eat before,
660
00:23:26.420 --> 00:23:27.800
just before we boarded the plane.
661
00:23:27.800 --> 00:23:29.670
Then obviously, we all got up
662
00:23:29.670 --> 00:23:31.400
and they put them...
663
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:32.980
They put the rope around our arms again,
664
00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:34.766
dragged us, kind of marched us out
665
00:23:34.766 --> 00:23:36.470
to the runway.
666
00:23:36.470 --> 00:23:37.443
Put us on the plane.
667
00:23:37.443 --> 00:23:39.420
I could hear the plane engines were running
668
00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:40.253
when we was on the plane.
669
00:23:40.253 --> 00:23:42.670
Sat down and they took the ropes off.
670
00:23:42.670 --> 00:23:44.710
So, we sat down individually, and I was sitting
671
00:23:44.710 --> 00:23:46.560
against the wall of the plane,
672
00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:47.920
and I could feel that the other detainees
673
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:49.973
were sitting in a line.
674
00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:54.150
And I could kind of make out because the goggles
675
00:23:54.150 --> 00:23:56.430
were obviously on, I could see underneath here,
676
00:23:56.430 --> 00:23:58.040
and through my nose.
677
00:23:58.040 --> 00:24:00.053
So, if I done that kind of thing,
678
00:24:00.053 --> 00:24:02.420
I could see the people round me.
679
00:24:02.420 --> 00:24:05.360
I could see the soldiers feet and so-and-so.
680
00:24:05.360 --> 00:24:06.580
So, I knew that it was all sitting
681
00:24:06.580 --> 00:24:07.830
on the wall of the plane.
682
00:24:09.469 --> 00:24:10.998
And they tied us down.
683
00:24:10.998 --> 00:24:13.900
They padlocked my chain to the floor.
684
00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:17.913
So, I couldn't lift my knees up, and I was...
685
00:24:17.913 --> 00:24:20.640
I think there was strap around my chest
686
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.800
to hold me down to the wall of the plane
687
00:24:23.800 --> 00:24:25.150
so I couldn't come forward.
688
00:24:26.700 --> 00:24:29.780
Then basically, we set off, we flew off,
689
00:24:29.780 --> 00:24:32.070
and obviously on the journey,
690
00:24:32.070 --> 00:24:34.230
they offered us peanut butter sandwich,
691
00:24:34.230 --> 00:24:36.360
which I could smell, which my mouth
692
00:24:36.360 --> 00:24:37.840
was watering, but obviously couldn't eat it.
693
00:24:37.840 --> 00:24:39.290
Obviously, I had a mask as well.
694
00:24:39.290 --> 00:24:41.680
They gave me a mask and but just in case
695
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:43.510
because they thought people have got TB.
696
00:24:43.510 --> 00:24:45.780
So, it doesn't spread.
697
00:24:45.780 --> 00:24:47.200
Even though I never had TB,
698
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.310
but it was just a precaution that they took.
699
00:24:49.310 --> 00:24:52.140
Some of the detainees did have TB,
700
00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:53.590
but it was just a precaution.
701
00:24:54.604 --> 00:24:57.980
Obviously, I could see through the bridge
702
00:24:57.980 --> 00:24:59.970
of my nose, I could see straight down,
703
00:24:59.970 --> 00:25:01.020
and they came to my ear.
704
00:25:01.020 --> 00:25:02.096
This woman came to my ear
705
00:25:02.096 --> 00:25:03.940
and she lifted my ear muffs.
706
00:25:03.940 --> 00:25:04.943
And she said to me,
707
00:25:06.218 --> 00:25:07.770
"I wanna place a peanut butter sandwich
708
00:25:07.770 --> 00:25:09.570
on your hand, so eat it."
709
00:25:09.570 --> 00:25:11.840
So, obviously I'm tied down from my chest.
710
00:25:11.840 --> 00:25:14.110
My hands are tied here, which I can't lift.
711
00:25:14.110 --> 00:25:15.350
I can't even go forward.
712
00:25:15.350 --> 00:25:16.830
So, in between my gloves, she puts
713
00:25:16.830 --> 00:25:18.790
this peanut butter sandwich
714
00:25:18.790 --> 00:25:20.020
and my mouth's watering. (laughs)
715
00:25:20.020 --> 00:25:21.617
Cause obviously, I was starving,
716
00:25:21.617 --> 00:25:23.690
and the smell of the peanut butter sandwich
717
00:25:23.690 --> 00:25:25.790
is like pfft, when you haven't had food for...
718
00:25:25.790 --> 00:25:27.340
Decent food, even it's only
719
00:25:27.340 --> 00:25:28.453
a peanut butter sandwich,
720
00:25:28.453 --> 00:25:31.290
it's not nothing delicious, or exotic
721
00:25:31.290 --> 00:25:32.123
you could say. (chuckles)
722
00:25:32.123 --> 00:25:33.997
So, obviously, I'm there and I'm looking down,
723
00:25:33.997 --> 00:25:36.728
and I'm thinking, how am I supposed to eat that?
724
00:25:36.728 --> 00:25:38.850
(chuckles) And I'm there for maybe half an hour
725
00:25:38.850 --> 00:25:39.683
trying to eat it.
726
00:25:39.683 --> 00:25:42.020
I'm trying everything, coming forward,
727
00:25:42.020 --> 00:25:43.440
trying to lift my arms up.
(interviewer laughs)
728
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:45.473
And I'm thinking, damn.
729
00:25:46.570 --> 00:25:48.300
Things you have to do to eat your food.
730
00:25:48.300 --> 00:25:50.000
So, I'm there and basically, she came
731
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.380
to my ear again and she lifted my muffs
732
00:25:51.380 --> 00:25:52.780
and she goes, "Don't you wanna eat it?"
733
00:25:52.780 --> 00:25:54.939
I said, "Well, how am I supposed to eat it?"
734
00:25:54.939 --> 00:25:55.772
(interviewer chuckles)
735
00:25:55.772 --> 00:25:56.605
She goes, "What do you mean?
736
00:25:56.605 --> 00:25:57.527
With your hands and your mouth."
737
00:25:57.527 --> 00:25:59.850
And I thought, there's no point explaining.
738
00:25:59.850 --> 00:26:00.950
So, she took the sandwich,
739
00:26:00.950 --> 00:26:03.420
threw it in the bin, cause everybody
740
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:04.510
had the sandwiches, and I think, they threw
741
00:26:04.510 --> 00:26:05.390
everybody's in the bin because nobody
742
00:26:05.390 --> 00:26:06.300
could eat it.
743
00:26:06.300 --> 00:26:08.563
Then they came and they put an apple.
744
00:26:08.563 --> 00:26:09.470
(interviewer laughs)
745
00:26:09.470 --> 00:26:12.640
And I thought, how ridiculous, and how...
746
00:26:14.420 --> 00:26:16.480
You guys must be thick, or stupid,
747
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:18.392
or something like that.
748
00:26:18.392 --> 00:26:20.392
And I just thought damn,
749
00:26:22.201 --> 00:26:24.070
I'm missing out on my apple.
750
00:26:24.070 --> 00:26:25.197
I missed out on my peanut butter sandwich,
751
00:26:25.197 --> 00:26:26.030
and now I'm missing out.
752
00:26:26.030 --> 00:26:28.230
And so, then they took the apple,
753
00:26:28.230 --> 00:26:29.617
threw that away obviously.
754
00:26:29.617 --> 00:26:32.293
And they gave a glass of water, and I thought,
755
00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:35.000
are you having a laugh?
756
00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:36.620
Is this supposed to be funny?
757
00:26:36.620 --> 00:26:38.333
And there was...
758
00:26:38.333 --> 00:26:40.410
I could hear, sometimes because the ear muffs
759
00:26:40.410 --> 00:26:42.620
obviously, cause you know with your shoulder,
760
00:26:42.620 --> 00:26:43.530
they would move out.
761
00:26:43.530 --> 00:26:45.540
So, I could hear things,
762
00:26:45.540 --> 00:26:46.907
and they were saying like,
763
00:26:46.907 --> 00:26:49.060
"Aren't they eating? No one's eating."
764
00:26:49.060 --> 00:26:51.223
And I thought, you stupid idiots,
765
00:26:52.180 --> 00:26:53.750
and eventually, obviously before
766
00:26:53.750 --> 00:26:55.710
we boarded the plane they gave us food.
767
00:26:55.710 --> 00:26:59.080
So, they opened only one arm so we ate
768
00:26:59.080 --> 00:27:00.560
a piece of bread, which was about this big.
769
00:27:00.560 --> 00:27:01.530
In Afghanistan, you get like a...
770
00:27:01.530 --> 00:27:03.520
Do you know what naan bread is?
771
00:27:03.520 --> 00:27:04.502
Yeah.
772
00:27:04.502 --> 00:27:05.563
Like a pita bread, but it's about this big.
773
00:27:05.563 --> 00:27:07.440
It's actually this big, that thick,
774
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:08.273
and that wide.
775
00:27:08.273 --> 00:27:10.270
So, it's a huge amount of bread.
776
00:27:10.270 --> 00:27:14.043
So, I ate that and obviously, it was okay,
777
00:27:14.043 --> 00:27:15.361
do you know what I mean?
778
00:27:15.361 --> 00:27:17.090
And they gave us water,
779
00:27:17.090 --> 00:27:19.612
but then we landed somewhere.
780
00:27:19.612 --> 00:27:20.445
I dunno where we landed.
781
00:27:20.445 --> 00:27:22.060
We landed into...
782
00:27:22.060 --> 00:27:23.960
Considering it was February.
783
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:25.260
So, obviously if it was the European countries
784
00:27:25.260 --> 00:27:27.220
it would be cold because it'd be snowing,
785
00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:28.820
and so on, and so on, but where I landed,
786
00:27:28.820 --> 00:27:30.300
it was extremely hot.
787
00:27:30.300 --> 00:27:31.700
It was actually very hot,
788
00:27:31.700 --> 00:27:34.590
because when we come off the plane
789
00:27:34.590 --> 00:27:35.699
to get onto another plane,
790
00:27:35.699 --> 00:27:36.532
I don't know if we actually got
791
00:27:36.532 --> 00:27:38.270
onto another plane, or if it was like just
792
00:27:38.270 --> 00:27:40.930
to make us feel that we were changing planes.
793
00:27:40.930 --> 00:27:43.080
We got off, we walked a bit,
794
00:27:43.080 --> 00:27:44.690
we went around in a few circles,
795
00:27:44.690 --> 00:27:46.210
and we went back on a plane.
796
00:27:46.210 --> 00:27:47.310
So, I don't know if it was the same plane,
797
00:27:47.310 --> 00:27:48.710
or it was a different plane,
798
00:27:49.545 --> 00:27:50.460
but it was extremely hot.
799
00:27:50.460 --> 00:27:52.690
And it was actually that hot that,
800
00:27:52.690 --> 00:27:54.500
have you actually been to Dubai?
801
00:27:54.500 --> 00:27:55.590
Have you been to a Saudi country?
802
00:27:55.590 --> 00:27:57.580
Have you been to ever, a hot country,
803
00:27:57.580 --> 00:27:59.160
where you get off the plane and you can see
804
00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:02.037
like the steam go up?
805
00:28:02.037 --> 00:28:02.870
Do you know what I mean?
806
00:28:02.870 --> 00:28:05.380
It's you know like water when it evaporates,
807
00:28:05.380 --> 00:28:06.620
you can actually see it?
808
00:28:06.620 --> 00:28:08.540
That's how it was, it was that hot.
809
00:28:08.540 --> 00:28:10.230
So, February that hot,
810
00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:12.520
the only country I can think of,
811
00:28:12.520 --> 00:28:14.850
it's gotta be in the Gulf, somewhere in the Gulf,
812
00:28:14.850 --> 00:28:15.840
it has to be.
813
00:28:15.840 --> 00:28:17.230
So, we got onto another plane.
814
00:28:17.230 --> 00:28:18.303
Obviously, during that period,
815
00:28:18.303 --> 00:28:19.840
when they took us from one plane
816
00:28:19.840 --> 00:28:21.823
to another plane, if there was another plane.
817
00:28:22.780 --> 00:28:23.990
Obviously we've got a three-piece,
818
00:28:23.990 --> 00:28:25.350
we're walking, then they would stop you.
819
00:28:25.350 --> 00:28:27.740
And what the soldier would do,
820
00:28:27.740 --> 00:28:28.573
there were two of them.
821
00:28:28.573 --> 00:28:29.900
One on this shoulder and one on
822
00:28:29.900 --> 00:28:31.170
that shoulder holding you.
823
00:28:31.170 --> 00:28:33.010
One of them would kick from behind.
824
00:28:33.010 --> 00:28:36.030
He would kick the in part, inside of your leg,
825
00:28:36.030 --> 00:28:39.870
so you kind of spread your legs across.
826
00:28:39.870 --> 00:28:44.040
So, the chain on your feet, the shackles
827
00:28:44.040 --> 00:28:48.030
are actually stretched, not got a slack in it,
828
00:28:48.030 --> 00:28:49.070
so obviously, it's stretched.
829
00:28:49.070 --> 00:28:50.350
And what he does, from behind,
830
00:28:50.350 --> 00:28:53.230
he like stamps on it.
831
00:28:53.230 --> 00:28:57.290
So, obviously you've got your feet spread apart,
832
00:28:57.290 --> 00:28:59.250
the chain there has gone off slack.
833
00:28:59.250 --> 00:29:00.840
So, it's like, there's no slack in it.
834
00:29:00.840 --> 00:29:02.930
So, you can imagine if someone's from behind
835
00:29:02.930 --> 00:29:05.350
smacks it from the middle and yanks you back.
836
00:29:05.350 --> 00:29:08.690
The pressure of the cuffs pushes down
837
00:29:08.690 --> 00:29:10.171
and it cuts you.
838
00:29:10.171 --> 00:29:11.004
And they kept on doing that
839
00:29:11.004 --> 00:29:13.463
every time we stopped, and it was like...
840
00:29:13.463 --> 00:29:15.327
I don't really cry, do you know what I mean?
841
00:29:15.327 --> 00:29:17.430
But that day I cried. (chuckles)
842
00:29:17.430 --> 00:29:18.263
Do you know what I mean?
843
00:29:18.263 --> 00:29:19.096
I was in tears, man.
844
00:29:19.096 --> 00:29:19.929
I couldn't hack the pain
845
00:29:19.929 --> 00:29:21.050
because it was cutting my leg,
846
00:29:21.050 --> 00:29:22.660
and it was like, agonizing.
847
00:29:22.660 --> 00:29:25.390
And what they did, the cuffs, you could either
848
00:29:25.390 --> 00:29:26.980
have them loose, or you could have them
849
00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:27.980
really, really tight.
850
00:29:27.980 --> 00:29:29.320
They had them really, really tight,
851
00:29:29.320 --> 00:29:31.402
so obviously, if it's really tight on them,
852
00:29:31.402 --> 00:29:33.940
they keep on doing that, the more pain I feel.
853
00:29:33.940 --> 00:29:34.773
Do you know what I mean?
854
00:29:34.773 --> 00:29:37.550
And obviously, if the cuff actually had slack,
855
00:29:37.550 --> 00:29:40.400
then maybe I would feel no pain whatsoever.
856
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:41.939
So, I got to another plane, same method
857
00:29:41.939 --> 00:29:43.510
they tied me down, flew.
858
00:29:43.510 --> 00:29:45.243
By that time I needed to go to the toilet,
859
00:29:46.466 --> 00:29:48.660
and I actually had to go for a number two,
860
00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:49.580
and number one.
861
00:29:49.580 --> 00:29:52.587
So, I've got there and I'm saying,
862
00:29:52.587 --> 00:29:54.335
"Excuse me, excuse me."
863
00:29:54.335 --> 00:29:57.040
One guy, I think it was a woman who came over,
864
00:29:57.040 --> 00:29:58.100
she opened my...
865
00:29:58.100 --> 00:29:59.527
She removed my muffs and she goes,
866
00:29:59.527 --> 00:30:00.566
"What do you want?"
867
00:30:00.566 --> 00:30:01.750
I said, I need to go to the bathroom.
868
00:30:01.750 --> 00:30:02.885
She goes, "Can't you hold it?"
869
00:30:02.885 --> 00:30:04.760
I go, "No, I need to go."
870
00:30:04.760 --> 00:30:05.600
She goes, "Okay."
871
00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:08.953
So, she took the padlock off, got me up,
872
00:30:08.953 --> 00:30:10.640
went to the bathroom.
873
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:12.518
She just pulled my pants down,
874
00:30:12.518 --> 00:30:13.351
do you know what I mean?
875
00:30:13.351 --> 00:30:15.400
I was like, okay.
876
00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:16.730
And now she goes, "Go."
877
00:30:16.730 --> 00:30:18.810
So, I turned around, sat down,
878
00:30:18.810 --> 00:30:20.397
I'm sitting there for maybe half an hour
879
00:30:20.397 --> 00:30:22.053
and I could see her feet.
880
00:30:22.906 --> 00:30:25.510
I could see her shoes, and I'm thinking like,
881
00:30:25.510 --> 00:30:28.000
okay, you can go now, do you know what I mean?
882
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.890
Or at least turn around so I can see the heel,
883
00:30:30.890 --> 00:30:33.470
you know your heels, but she just stood there,
884
00:30:33.470 --> 00:30:34.370
and obviously just looking.
885
00:30:34.370 --> 00:30:35.990
And I couldn't relieve myself,
886
00:30:35.990 --> 00:30:36.910
and it was actually,
887
00:30:36.910 --> 00:30:39.681
I was more in pain than anything.
888
00:30:39.681 --> 00:30:40.514
And I was there for maybe half an hour,
889
00:30:40.514 --> 00:30:42.220
and at the end, I thought, you know what?
890
00:30:42.220 --> 00:30:43.630
Forget it, there's no going.
891
00:30:43.630 --> 00:30:45.390
So, I went back, sat back down.
892
00:30:45.390 --> 00:30:46.490
She goes, "Did you go?"
893
00:30:46.490 --> 00:30:47.323
I said, "No, I couldn't go."
894
00:30:47.323 --> 00:30:48.156
She goes, "Why?"
895
00:30:48.156 --> 00:30:49.130
I said, "Well, you were standing there."
896
00:30:49.130 --> 00:30:51.110
She goes, "Oh, what's wrong with that?"
897
00:30:51.110 --> 00:30:51.943
I was thinking, yeah why...
898
00:30:51.943 --> 00:30:52.790
In my mind I was thinking, yeah,
899
00:30:52.790 --> 00:30:54.640
why don't you sit down, half naked
900
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.177
and let me look at you and say, "Go on."
901
00:30:58.170 --> 00:31:00.130
See how uncomfortable you find it.
902
00:31:00.130 --> 00:31:02.850
And I sat back down after another half an hour,
903
00:31:02.850 --> 00:31:04.380
I was in pain, my stomach was hurting.
904
00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:07.050
I needed to go really, really desperately now,
905
00:31:07.050 --> 00:31:09.200
especially like for a wee, I was dying.
906
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:11.680
I could feel like my bladder,
907
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:13.900
I was about to shoot, it was about to come.
908
00:31:13.900 --> 00:31:15.460
I thought, I need to go.
909
00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:18.477
And they took me off again, and I just sat there,
910
00:31:18.477 --> 00:31:19.320
and it took me another half an hour,
911
00:31:19.320 --> 00:31:21.580
but this time I just closed my eyes,
912
00:31:21.580 --> 00:31:22.413
just tried to imagine
913
00:31:22.413 --> 00:31:23.246
she's not there.
914
00:31:23.246 --> 00:31:27.160
And eventually, I relieved myself.
915
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:28.340
Just done a wee really, I mean,
916
00:31:28.340 --> 00:31:31.179
I don't do nothing else, I hold all of it in,
917
00:31:31.179 --> 00:31:32.310
but I just done a wee.
918
00:31:32.310 --> 00:31:34.180
And I got up, and she'd said to me turnaround,
919
00:31:34.180 --> 00:31:35.880
and I thought maybe she wants to put
920
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:36.940
my trousers up.
921
00:31:36.940 --> 00:31:37.773
So, I turned around,
922
00:31:37.773 --> 00:31:40.350
and she kind of wiped my ass for me,
923
00:31:40.350 --> 00:31:41.910
which like, shocked me.
924
00:31:41.910 --> 00:31:45.090
I was like, ugh! Don't do that.
925
00:31:45.090 --> 00:31:45.923
She goes, "What?"
926
00:31:45.923 --> 00:31:47.227
I go, "I haven't done a poop."
927
00:31:48.140 --> 00:31:48.973
Do you know what I mean?
928
00:31:48.973 --> 00:31:50.400
And it's like, embarrassing.
929
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.250
I felt so embarrassed.
930
00:31:52.250 --> 00:31:56.520
It's like madness and I thought, yeah,
931
00:31:56.520 --> 00:32:00.252
things you gotta do for your job, hey? (chuckles)
932
00:32:00.252 --> 00:32:01.300
Just absolutely horrendous,
933
00:32:01.300 --> 00:32:04.430
so then I sat back down and obviously,
934
00:32:04.430 --> 00:32:07.160
I was thinking, fine, what just happened?
935
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:09.640
I was going over my head what's happened.
936
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:11.630
That's something I gotta tell my family one day
937
00:32:11.630 --> 00:32:13.770
when I get home, (chuckle) all my friends.
938
00:32:13.770 --> 00:32:15.703
And obviously, I flew,
939
00:32:15.703 --> 00:32:18.690
I think it was a day or two, a day and a half.
940
00:32:18.690 --> 00:32:21.450
Got to my destination, landed in Guantanamo,
941
00:32:21.450 --> 00:32:23.093
obviously, on the other side of the bay.
942
00:32:24.280 --> 00:32:25.887
We was marched off individually,
943
00:32:25.887 --> 00:32:27.873
and we was thrown onto a truck.
944
00:32:29.130 --> 00:32:31.360
On this truck, we was told...
945
00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:33.440
It was an open back truck.
946
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:35.230
I could see, I could sense
947
00:32:35.230 --> 00:32:37.550
that it's like the truck, the back part
948
00:32:37.550 --> 00:32:38.470
it was actually open.
949
00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:39.664
You know the military trucks?
950
00:32:39.664 --> 00:32:41.063
They have the open back trucks
951
00:32:41.063 --> 00:32:41.896
and you can see all the people inside.
952
00:32:41.896 --> 00:32:43.240
It was like one of them trucks.
953
00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:45.070
We sat down and we was told to sit
954
00:32:45.070 --> 00:32:47.640
with our legs crossed, lent forward
955
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:49.121
with our hands on our left knee.
956
00:32:49.121 --> 00:32:51.479
So, our hands like that, we had to lean forward,
957
00:32:51.479 --> 00:32:53.663
and put it on our left knee.
958
00:32:53.663 --> 00:32:55.160
And so, you got your legs crossed.
959
00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:56.850
So, we driving, and obviously when you driving
960
00:32:56.850 --> 00:32:58.470
it moves, the vehicle moves,
961
00:32:58.470 --> 00:33:00.100
bumps and blah, blah, blah.
962
00:33:00.100 --> 00:33:02.370
And eventually, it was only like about,
963
00:33:02.370 --> 00:33:03.203
from what I remember,
964
00:33:03.203 --> 00:33:06.440
I think it was about 10 minutes to dock.
965
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:07.780
I think there's a dock there and you have
966
00:33:07.780 --> 00:33:09.920
to cross the channel, or the river,
967
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:10.990
whatever it is.
968
00:33:10.990 --> 00:33:13.960
So, we go on this ferry, we drove onto a ferry,
969
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:15.680
and obviously, you're on the sea now.
970
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:18.296
So, the sea moves about with the water.
971
00:33:18.296 --> 00:33:19.820
We was told not to move, we couldn't move.
972
00:33:19.820 --> 00:33:21.360
Couldn't move a muscle, so every time
973
00:33:21.360 --> 00:33:23.750
the sea moved, or the boat moved, it was rocking.
974
00:33:23.750 --> 00:33:26.180
So, the guy kicked me in my thigh,
975
00:33:26.180 --> 00:33:28.740
like as he's kicking a football,.
976
00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:30.793
And he kicked me that hard for about,
977
00:33:32.360 --> 00:33:34.650
I would say he must have kicked me about 30 times
978
00:33:34.650 --> 00:33:36.363
on that same spot.
979
00:33:37.517 --> 00:33:38.499
And again as I...
980
00:33:38.499 --> 00:33:40.760
I don't really cry in my life,
981
00:33:40.760 --> 00:33:42.760
but that was like I broke down
982
00:33:42.760 --> 00:33:44.010
and I couldn't hack the pain.
983
00:33:44.010 --> 00:33:46.290
I was in tears, I was like, tears were running.
984
00:33:46.290 --> 00:33:49.260
There was like a river. (chuckles)
985
00:33:49.260 --> 00:33:50.253
Do you know?
986
00:33:50.253 --> 00:33:51.086
And it was that bad, I couldn't...
987
00:33:51.086 --> 00:33:52.850
And the thing what it was,
988
00:33:52.850 --> 00:33:53.700
the reason I was getting kicked
989
00:33:53.700 --> 00:33:55.830
more than anybody, because what happened was,
990
00:33:55.830 --> 00:33:57.960
my hands were on my left knee.
991
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:00.460
And you know, like when you're in that state?
992
00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:01.790
You forget things,
993
00:34:01.790 --> 00:34:04.630
sometimes you kind of just don't pay attention.
994
00:34:04.630 --> 00:34:06.657
I brought my hand back to the middle
995
00:34:06.657 --> 00:34:07.640
and I sat up straight.
996
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:09.040
A guy goes, comes to my ear,
997
00:34:09.944 --> 00:34:11.870
and by that time they took the muffs off.
998
00:34:11.870 --> 00:34:13.260
They took our jackets off as well.
999
00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:14.950
They got a (indistinct), took our jackets off
1000
00:34:14.950 --> 00:34:17.410
when we got to Guantanamo, but so,
1001
00:34:17.410 --> 00:34:18.660
we still had the goggles.
1002
00:34:19.752 --> 00:34:21.553
No, we had them off soon, all right?
1003
00:34:21.553 --> 00:34:22.870
They took our wooly caps off.
1004
00:34:22.870 --> 00:34:23.703
We had a wooly cap, they took that off,
1005
00:34:23.703 --> 00:34:25.070
put the muffs back on.
1006
00:34:25.070 --> 00:34:26.367
The guy came, took my muff off,
1007
00:34:26.367 --> 00:34:29.160
and he said to me, "Put your hands
1008
00:34:29.160 --> 00:34:30.330
on your left knee."
1009
00:34:30.330 --> 00:34:32.891
I just instantly went like that,
1010
00:34:32.891 --> 00:34:34.240
because obviously I understand him.
1011
00:34:34.240 --> 00:34:35.780
Majority of them, actually, all of them
1012
00:34:35.780 --> 00:34:36.613
never understood him.
1013
00:34:36.613 --> 00:34:38.250
So, they was having difficulties telling them
1014
00:34:38.250 --> 00:34:40.243
what a left knee is and put their hands.
1015
00:34:40.243 --> 00:34:41.770
So, obviously, when he told me, I moved
1016
00:34:41.770 --> 00:34:42.603
as he told me.
1017
00:34:42.603 --> 00:34:43.500
So, he thought, well, hold on,
1018
00:34:43.500 --> 00:34:44.820
this guy understood me.
1019
00:34:44.820 --> 00:34:45.653
So, he goes,
1020
00:34:45.653 --> 00:34:47.720
"Oh, this motherfucker speaks English,
1021
00:34:47.720 --> 00:34:48.920
and he understands."
1022
00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:51.690
So, what they did, they got like a chalk,
1023
00:34:51.690 --> 00:34:54.403
and they wrote on my back, English.
1024
00:34:55.720 --> 00:34:56.553
How do you know
1025
00:34:56.553 --> 00:34:57.790
that the word English was written on your back?
1026
00:34:57.790 --> 00:35:00.290
Because you know like when I was walking,
1027
00:35:00.290 --> 00:35:02.744
so I could hear some of the soldiers.
1028
00:35:02.744 --> 00:35:04.470
What has he got English written on his back for?
1029
00:35:04.470 --> 00:35:06.832
Why has he got English on his back for?
1030
00:35:06.832 --> 00:35:07.860
And basically, it was telling the other soldiers,
1031
00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:09.530
this guy speaks English.
1032
00:35:09.530 --> 00:35:10.480
Not that I was from England.
1033
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:11.370
They just thought, they just knew
1034
00:35:11.370 --> 00:35:12.720
I spoke English.
1035
00:35:12.720 --> 00:35:16.278
So, when he said to me, "Turn, put your hands
1036
00:35:16.278 --> 00:35:17.111
on your left knee."
1037
00:35:17.111 --> 00:35:18.100
I just moved it.
1038
00:35:18.100 --> 00:35:18.933
He obviously, he goes,
1039
00:35:18.933 --> 00:35:20.340
"Oh, this motherfucker speaks English
1040
00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:21.173
and understands it."
1041
00:35:21.173 --> 00:35:22.540
And he kicked me every time I moved,
1042
00:35:22.540 --> 00:35:24.500
every time the boat moved, obviously
1043
00:35:24.500 --> 00:35:25.900
I was going left and right (chuckles)
1044
00:35:25.900 --> 00:35:27.310
with the boat rocking.
1045
00:35:27.310 --> 00:35:29.780
And then he kept on kicking me on my left knee,
1046
00:35:29.780 --> 00:35:31.240
on my left thigh.
1047
00:35:31.240 --> 00:35:32.373
And then, when I got off,
1048
00:35:32.373 --> 00:35:34.630
I couldn't put any pressure on my leg.
1049
00:35:34.630 --> 00:35:37.583
It was swollen to the extent that I...
1050
00:35:37.583 --> 00:35:39.976
It was like, black, and when I went to the...
1051
00:35:39.976 --> 00:35:40.809
When I went to my cage,
1052
00:35:40.809 --> 00:35:41.713
or when I went to the tent,
1053
00:35:41.713 --> 00:35:43.230
when they stripped me again,
1054
00:35:43.230 --> 00:35:44.430
my leg was like swollen,
1055
00:35:44.430 --> 00:35:46.530
and it was all black, blue and purple.
1056
00:35:46.530 --> 00:35:49.048
And they said to me, "What happened to your leg?"
1057
00:35:49.048 --> 00:35:50.078
So, what do you mean what happened to my leg?
1058
00:35:50.078 --> 00:35:51.130
Why don't you ask your soldier who kicked
1059
00:35:51.130 --> 00:35:52.780
me about 30 times?
1060
00:35:52.780 --> 00:35:53.687
That's what happened to my leg.
1061
00:35:53.687 --> 00:35:55.988
And he goes, "Why did he kick you?"
1062
00:35:55.988 --> 00:35:58.610
I go, "Ask him, I don't know why he kicked me."
1063
00:35:58.610 --> 00:35:59.443
I was not moving.
1064
00:35:59.443 --> 00:36:00.977
I was moving because the boat was moving.
1065
00:36:00.977 --> 00:36:02.601
I was going along with the boat.
1066
00:36:02.601 --> 00:36:04.156
Do you know what I mean?
1067
00:36:04.156 --> 00:36:05.490
And nothing happened about that anyway.
1068
00:36:05.490 --> 00:36:09.540
So, we got off in the...
1069
00:36:10.720 --> 00:36:12.000
Then we got off the ferry.
1070
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:14.060
We drove into the camp,
1071
00:36:14.060 --> 00:36:15.008
the gates opened obviously,
1072
00:36:15.008 --> 00:36:16.220
I could hear the gates open up,
1073
00:36:16.220 --> 00:36:17.930
padlocks, and blah, blah, chains.
1074
00:36:17.930 --> 00:36:19.990
We drove in, they dragged us off one by one,
1075
00:36:19.990 --> 00:36:21.003
and the pictures that was first,
1076
00:36:21.003 --> 00:36:22.417
I think released of Guantanamo,
1077
00:36:22.417 --> 00:36:25.295
you know when they got them like detainees
1078
00:36:25.295 --> 00:36:27.220
who was sitting down with their hands like that
1079
00:36:27.220 --> 00:36:28.290
with the masks.
1080
00:36:28.290 --> 00:36:30.268
That's how we was put,
1081
00:36:30.268 --> 00:36:33.243
and I was there for maybe two hours probably.
1082
00:36:34.620 --> 00:36:36.500
It was really hot, dehydrating.
1083
00:36:36.500 --> 00:36:38.020
We was not obviously given any water
1084
00:36:38.020 --> 00:36:39.587
because we was given water,
1085
00:36:39.587 --> 00:36:41.060
but we couldn't drink it.
1086
00:36:41.060 --> 00:36:42.680
So, according to them, we all refused
1087
00:36:42.680 --> 00:36:43.660
to drink water. (chuckles)
1088
00:36:43.660 --> 00:36:45.770
So, obviously we was all dehydrating.
1089
00:36:45.770 --> 00:36:48.400
God, it was extremely hot, dehydrated more.
1090
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:50.800
Obviously, when they get off, they kind of...
1091
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:51.633
Excuse me, they punch you, kick you,
1092
00:36:51.633 --> 00:36:53.840
and so on and so, put us down.
1093
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:55.740
Then, I think, they was taking everybody one
1094
00:36:55.740 --> 00:36:58.300
by one individually in a rota,
1095
00:36:58.300 --> 00:36:59.133
and it was my turn.
1096
00:36:59.133 --> 00:37:00.120
They took me...
1097
00:37:00.968 --> 00:37:01.820
First, they took me to the showers.
1098
00:37:01.820 --> 00:37:03.810
They got a Stanley knife.
1099
00:37:03.810 --> 00:37:06.780
They cut my clothes off, took my goggles off.
1100
00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:08.650
Sorry, took my ear muffs off, but left
1101
00:37:08.650 --> 00:37:09.483
my goggles on.
1102
00:37:10.430 --> 00:37:12.400
Still had my cuffs on and basically,
1103
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:13.233
I was literally naked,
1104
00:37:13.233 --> 00:37:16.570
and they took me to the shower.
1105
00:37:16.570 --> 00:37:18.490
And the one guy moved, removed the goggles
1106
00:37:18.490 --> 00:37:19.323
to a certain extent.
1107
00:37:19.323 --> 00:37:20.156
He goes, "That's the shower,
1108
00:37:20.156 --> 00:37:22.100
here's a bar of soap, have a shower."
1109
00:37:22.100 --> 00:37:23.300
So, he put the goggles back down,
1110
00:37:23.300 --> 00:37:26.620
he opened the tap of the shower.
1111
00:37:26.620 --> 00:37:27.453
And obviously, it was like
1112
00:37:27.453 --> 00:37:28.286
a really powerful shower.
1113
00:37:28.286 --> 00:37:31.065
It's like I was having a shower,
1114
00:37:31.065 --> 00:37:33.179
you can call it, but I had a soap in my hands,
1115
00:37:33.179 --> 00:37:34.012
and my hands were tied.
1116
00:37:34.012 --> 00:37:35.157
And I said, (chuckles) "Excuse me,
1117
00:37:35.157 --> 00:37:36.375
can you un-cuff at least one of my hands
1118
00:37:36.375 --> 00:37:37.512
so I can put soap around me?"
1119
00:37:37.512 --> 00:37:39.878
Under my armpits and my private parts, and stuff.
1120
00:37:39.878 --> 00:37:42.257
I need to scrub, and he said, "No."
1121
00:37:42.257 --> 00:37:43.279
He said, "You should do it
1122
00:37:43.279 --> 00:37:44.187
with your hands cuffed."
1123
00:37:44.187 --> 00:37:45.695
I thought, okay, I just threw the soap
1124
00:37:45.695 --> 00:37:47.430
on the floor and just stood there like a twat,
1125
00:37:47.430 --> 00:37:49.170
under the cold water.
1126
00:37:49.170 --> 00:37:52.780
Then they took me back to a tent,
1127
00:37:52.780 --> 00:37:54.650
it was called the processing tent.
1128
00:37:54.650 --> 00:37:55.497
Went through the tent
1129
00:37:55.497 --> 00:37:56.530
and there was a lot of people there,
1130
00:37:56.530 --> 00:37:58.580
they had like it was generals,
1131
00:37:58.580 --> 00:38:00.840
and all the military high officials.
1132
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:01.673
You could tell like it was...
1133
00:38:01.673 --> 00:38:03.562
They were all standing there.
1134
00:38:03.562 --> 00:38:04.490
And I got to the tent,
1135
00:38:04.490 --> 00:38:05.323
and the one guy goes to me,
1136
00:38:05.323 --> 00:38:08.680
oh he goes, "Arabic, Urdu, Pashto?"
1137
00:38:08.680 --> 00:38:09.931
Asking if you speak the language.
1138
00:38:09.931 --> 00:38:10.764
I said, "No, no."
1139
00:38:10.764 --> 00:38:11.670
And they all kind of looked at me,
1140
00:38:11.670 --> 00:38:14.610
like really funny, like what language
1141
00:38:14.610 --> 00:38:15.443
does he speak? (laughs)
1142
00:38:15.443 --> 00:38:18.100
Then I was like from some kind of alien,
1143
00:38:18.100 --> 00:38:20.417
and they said, "You translator?"
1144
00:38:20.417 --> 00:38:21.668
I said, "No, I speak English."
1145
00:38:21.668 --> 00:38:23.327
And they were all like, (gasps)
1146
00:38:23.327 --> 00:38:24.413
"He just spoke English."
1147
00:38:24.413 --> 00:38:26.810
It's like, yeah, you not the only ones
1148
00:38:26.810 --> 00:38:28.570
who speak English in this world. (chuckles)
1149
00:38:28.570 --> 00:38:29.500
Do you know what I mean?
1150
00:38:29.500 --> 00:38:31.540
So, I'm walking in the tent and they,
1151
00:38:31.540 --> 00:38:35.590
first of all, they took a swab again of my mouth,
1152
00:38:35.590 --> 00:38:37.510
took a few photos.
1153
00:38:37.510 --> 00:38:38.810
They took my fingerprints.
1154
00:38:41.010 --> 00:38:42.413
They never took any strand of my hair
1155
00:38:42.413 --> 00:38:45.603
because it was shaven before we got on the plane.
1156
00:38:46.780 --> 00:38:49.690
Then we was marched to the table,
1157
00:38:49.690 --> 00:38:51.563
cavity search, moved on.
1158
00:38:52.430 --> 00:38:53.960
I'm still in the cuffs.
1159
00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:56.430
Then they gave us a new set of a uniform
1160
00:38:56.430 --> 00:38:57.900
and the way we we wore them
1161
00:38:57.900 --> 00:38:59.680
is they took one leg off, one cuff,
1162
00:38:59.680 --> 00:39:02.440
one leg iron off, put one leg on.
1163
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:04.530
Cuffed it back, took the other one off,
1164
00:39:04.530 --> 00:39:05.850
put the trousers on, cuffed it,
1165
00:39:05.850 --> 00:39:07.020
and same with the hands.
1166
00:39:07.020 --> 00:39:08.750
But it was not a full suit, it was actually
1167
00:39:08.750 --> 00:39:11.270
like trouser and a top, which was orange.
1168
00:39:11.270 --> 00:39:12.103
And by that time they took
1169
00:39:12.103 --> 00:39:13.430
my actual goggles off then.
1170
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:17.040
So, I got to this other place, the guy sitting
1171
00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:20.150
on a table with some letters, and he asked me
1172
00:39:20.150 --> 00:39:21.290
to write a letter to my family.
1173
00:39:21.290 --> 00:39:22.401
He goes, "Do you wanna write a letter
1174
00:39:22.401 --> 00:39:23.234
to your family?"
1175
00:39:23.234 --> 00:39:24.106
I said, "Yeah, I wouldn't mind to write
1176
00:39:24.106 --> 00:39:25.710
a letter, but how?"
1177
00:39:25.710 --> 00:39:27.520
He goes, "With you hands, here's the pen."
1178
00:39:27.520 --> 00:39:28.353
I said, "Well, my hands are cuffed,
1179
00:39:28.353 --> 00:39:29.186
how am I supposed to write a letter
1180
00:39:29.186 --> 00:39:30.019
with my hands cuffed?"
1181
00:39:30.019 --> 00:39:30.852
And obviously, I was tied like this,
1182
00:39:30.852 --> 00:39:33.098
so how am I supposed to write a letter?
1183
00:39:33.098 --> 00:39:34.930
And he said, "Well, you'll have to do it."
1184
00:39:34.930 --> 00:39:36.487
I was like, I go,
1185
00:39:36.487 --> 00:39:37.407
"Can I write a letter later on?"
1186
00:39:37.407 --> 00:39:39.150
And he goes, "Yeah, you're better (indistinct),
1187
00:39:39.150 --> 00:39:39.983
leave it then."
1188
00:39:39.983 --> 00:39:41.003
And I think, majority of the detainees,
1189
00:39:41.003 --> 00:39:42.100
I think all of them,
1190
00:39:42.100 --> 00:39:43.317
they've actually wrote a letter
1191
00:39:43.317 --> 00:39:44.150
when they first got in,
1192
00:39:44.150 --> 00:39:45.520
which is literally impossible.
1193
00:39:45.520 --> 00:39:49.820
Then they had like a camp rule list on a board
1194
00:39:49.820 --> 00:39:52.240
and I think, there's like 15, 20 rules,
1195
00:39:52.240 --> 00:39:55.140
or 10 rules that you had to abide by,
1196
00:39:55.140 --> 00:39:56.729
and I had to go and read them.
1197
00:39:56.729 --> 00:39:57.806
And he said, "Read them."
1198
00:39:57.806 --> 00:39:58.639
He goes, "Do you want me to explain to you?"
1199
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:00.591
I go, "Nah, no, I can read them myself."
1200
00:40:00.591 --> 00:40:03.387
I read it, then I was marched to my...
1201
00:40:04.610 --> 00:40:07.850
Where I was in the alpha block in Camp X-ray.
1202
00:40:07.850 --> 00:40:10.253
I was in Camp X-ray, block alpha,
1203
00:40:14.132 --> 00:40:15.070
it was alpha, charlie basically.
1204
00:40:15.070 --> 00:40:18.623
Block Alpha, row charlie, six.
1205
00:40:19.550 --> 00:40:21.707
So, that was my cell I went to.
1206
00:40:21.707 --> 00:40:23.150
And obviously, the way they take you,
1207
00:40:23.150 --> 00:40:24.410
you're still cuffed, and what they do,
1208
00:40:24.410 --> 00:40:26.570
they actually push your head down,
1209
00:40:26.570 --> 00:40:28.500
so you're walking like that.
1210
00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:29.930
So, you can't see up because someone's
1211
00:40:29.930 --> 00:40:30.970
got their hands on the head,
1212
00:40:30.970 --> 00:40:31.870
cause they don't want you to see the layout
1213
00:40:31.870 --> 00:40:33.180
of the camp, just in case you plan
1214
00:40:33.180 --> 00:40:35.750
to escapee. (chuckles)
1215
00:40:35.750 --> 00:40:37.923
So, I feel like a film.
1216
00:40:38.978 --> 00:40:40.260
Then we was marched to the...
1217
00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:42.833
I was taken to my cage, thrown in there.
1218
00:40:43.770 --> 00:40:46.060
I was made to kneel down at the back
1219
00:40:46.060 --> 00:40:46.893
of the fence.
1220
00:40:46.893 --> 00:40:49.470
So, my head, my forehead is pushed
1221
00:40:49.470 --> 00:40:50.520
against the fence.
1222
00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:51.520
My hands are cuffed.
1223
00:40:51.520 --> 00:40:52.980
One guy comes around the back,
1224
00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:53.813
there's three of them.
1225
00:40:53.813 --> 00:40:55.840
One's holding me from the shoulder,
1226
00:40:55.840 --> 00:40:57.440
the other holds me from my elbow,
1227
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:00.390
the other, he was un-cuffing one of my cuffs.
1228
00:41:00.390 --> 00:41:04.020
First of all, I think the un-cuff your leg irons,
1229
00:41:04.020 --> 00:41:06.210
then they throw the leg irons underneath you.
1230
00:41:06.210 --> 00:41:07.980
So, you're on your knees, right?
1231
00:41:07.980 --> 00:41:09.850
Hands like that, on your knees,
1232
00:41:09.850 --> 00:41:10.915
they un-cuff your leg irons,
1233
00:41:10.915 --> 00:41:11.850
throw them in the front.
1234
00:41:11.850 --> 00:41:13.870
The other guy comes from behind,
1235
00:41:13.870 --> 00:41:15.080
puts his hands behind my legs,
1236
00:41:15.080 --> 00:41:15.913
picks the cuffs up.
1237
00:41:15.913 --> 00:41:18.170
So, he's got em in his hand.
1238
00:41:18.170 --> 00:41:20.730
He un-cuffs one hand, grabs the cuff.
1239
00:41:20.730 --> 00:41:23.080
Then the other guy grabs your hand,
1240
00:41:23.080 --> 00:41:24.030
places it on top of your head.
1241
00:41:24.030 --> 00:41:25.730
He places his hand on top of your hand
1242
00:41:25.730 --> 00:41:27.020
so you can't move it.
1243
00:41:27.020 --> 00:41:28.200
Then the other guy goes around,
1244
00:41:28.200 --> 00:41:30.670
un-cuffs the other hand, takes the hands away,
1245
00:41:30.670 --> 00:41:31.590
throws them out the door
1246
00:41:31.590 --> 00:41:33.660
so you don't get hold of the other guys,
1247
00:41:33.660 --> 00:41:35.330
so you can still use them as a weapon.
1248
00:41:35.330 --> 00:41:36.620
Then the other guy puts your hands,
1249
00:41:36.620 --> 00:41:38.190
and he tells you to interlock your fingers
1250
00:41:38.190 --> 00:41:39.880
and they hold your fingers
1251
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:41.290
together, really tight.
1252
00:41:41.290 --> 00:41:42.860
Then as he's holding you,
1253
00:41:42.860 --> 00:41:44.740
and he's got you by your...
1254
00:41:44.740 --> 00:41:45.573
In between your shoulder,
1255
00:41:45.573 --> 00:41:47.300
pressed against the fence.
1256
00:41:47.300 --> 00:41:49.830
One leaves, second leaves, and when they got
1257
00:41:49.830 --> 00:41:51.730
the padlock ready, about to shut the door,
1258
00:41:51.730 --> 00:41:54.710
he pushes you and exits out.
1259
00:41:54.710 --> 00:41:56.810
And it's like any small cages,
1260
00:41:56.810 --> 00:41:58.980
like about three meters by three meters,
1261
00:41:58.980 --> 00:42:01.090
maybe four by four, something like that.
1262
00:42:01.090 --> 00:42:02.520
So, it's quite like...
1263
00:42:02.520 --> 00:42:06.410
It's like a drama scene, I think. (chuckles)
1264
00:42:06.410 --> 00:42:07.560
The way they do things.
1265
00:42:08.866 --> 00:42:10.390
Then they locked the door, and I got up,
1266
00:42:10.390 --> 00:42:11.223
and they told me to come
1267
00:42:11.223 --> 00:42:12.177
to the front (indistinct).
1268
00:42:13.160 --> 00:42:14.530
In my cell, there was two buckets,
1269
00:42:14.530 --> 00:42:15.363
one to drink water.
1270
00:42:15.363 --> 00:42:18.020
And he told me the order they have to be in.
1271
00:42:18.020 --> 00:42:20.390
So, you've got a bucket and a bucket.
1272
00:42:20.390 --> 00:42:21.490
Then you have your slippers.
1273
00:42:21.490 --> 00:42:22.450
Then you have a toothbrush,
1274
00:42:22.450 --> 00:42:24.493
toothpaste, soap, shampoo,
1275
00:42:25.660 --> 00:42:29.200
and then your canteen to drink water out of.
1276
00:42:29.200 --> 00:42:32.370
There's a particular order you gotta put em in.
1277
00:42:32.370 --> 00:42:34.640
In one bucket, there's water to wash,
1278
00:42:34.640 --> 00:42:36.490
or to drink before you wash.
1279
00:42:36.490 --> 00:42:38.490
You take the fresh water, put it in the canteen.
1280
00:42:38.490 --> 00:42:40.690
Then they got a small hand towel,
1281
00:42:40.690 --> 00:42:44.930
which you can use to put in the canteen
1282
00:42:44.930 --> 00:42:46.400
like at the top, so nothing goes inside,
1283
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:48.040
cause there was no top given.
1284
00:42:48.040 --> 00:42:49.580
So, we used that as like a stopper,
1285
00:42:49.580 --> 00:42:50.853
you can call it.
1286
00:42:52.110 --> 00:42:53.997
The other bucket was to urinate
1287
00:42:53.997 --> 00:42:55.920
and defecate in really.
1288
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:57.700
And obviously, there was no privacy, again,
1289
00:42:57.700 --> 00:42:59.370
we had to go in front of everybody.
1290
00:42:59.370 --> 00:43:01.970
And as you have seen, like the cages
1291
00:43:01.970 --> 00:43:05.510
were made of fence.
1292
00:43:05.510 --> 00:43:06.810
Like, you know when you go to play tennis?
1293
00:43:06.810 --> 00:43:09.364
A tennis court, the sides,
1294
00:43:09.364 --> 00:43:10.880
exactly the same material.
1295
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:12.143
Even the roof was built with that.
1296
00:43:12.143 --> 00:43:13.180
Then on top of that,
1297
00:43:13.180 --> 00:43:15.870
they had another roof that was built.
1298
00:43:15.870 --> 00:43:17.250
That was made of a wood,
1299
00:43:17.250 --> 00:43:19.730
but it was like just putting,
1300
00:43:19.730 --> 00:43:23.230
for example, building a...
1301
00:43:23.230 --> 00:43:26.150
It was like building a room
1302
00:43:26.150 --> 00:43:28.570
with a cage obviously, with metal.
1303
00:43:28.570 --> 00:43:30.690
Then they have this roof literally
1304
00:43:30.690 --> 00:43:32.490
the same size of the cage.
1305
00:43:32.490 --> 00:43:34.250
So, when you it rained obviously,
1306
00:43:34.250 --> 00:43:35.270
the rain never falls straight does it?
1307
00:43:35.270 --> 00:43:37.220
It always falls at an angle,
1308
00:43:37.220 --> 00:43:39.020
depending on which way the wind blows.
1309
00:43:39.020 --> 00:43:40.020
Sometimes it does fall straight
1310
00:43:40.020 --> 00:43:41.160
if there's no wind at all,
1311
00:43:41.160 --> 00:43:42.400
but 99.9% of the time,
1312
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:44.090
it always falls at an angle.
1313
00:43:44.090 --> 00:43:45.340
So, if the roof is exactly
1314
00:43:45.340 --> 00:43:47.710
the same size (chuckles) of this cage,
1315
00:43:47.710 --> 00:43:49.090
and the cage is made of mesh,
1316
00:43:49.090 --> 00:43:51.920
which is like open air.
1317
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.690
Obviously, you can get water in your tent.
1318
00:43:53.690 --> 00:43:55.820
So, I didn't see the purpose of that roof.
1319
00:43:55.820 --> 00:43:57.190
So, when it rained,
1320
00:43:57.190 --> 00:43:59.280
it would come straight in your cell,
1321
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:00.200
and you would get wet.
1322
00:44:00.200 --> 00:44:01.220
The only thing was the floor
1323
00:44:01.220 --> 00:44:02.450
was made of concrete.
1324
00:44:02.450 --> 00:44:05.540
We was given an insulation mat to sleep on.
1325
00:44:05.540 --> 00:44:09.210
We was given one sheet, two blankets,
1326
00:44:09.210 --> 00:44:12.563
like a thin, furry fleecy, kind of type blanket.
1327
00:44:15.219 --> 00:44:18.580
And we was given two towels to start off with.
1328
00:44:19.620 --> 00:44:20.453
When we first got there,
1329
00:44:20.453 --> 00:44:22.470
basically we couldn't talk to nobody.
1330
00:44:22.470 --> 00:44:23.707
I was more isolated because majority
1331
00:44:23.707 --> 00:44:27.080
of the people in my block
1332
00:44:28.240 --> 00:44:29.420
were actually Arabs.
1333
00:44:29.420 --> 00:44:31.920
So, I couldn't speak Arabic at the time.
1334
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:33.040
So, I was kind of more isolated
1335
00:44:33.040 --> 00:44:34.394
than anybody, even though we was not allowed
1336
00:44:34.394 --> 00:44:36.010
to talk to nobody, anyway, but later on
1337
00:44:36.010 --> 00:44:37.080
that ban was lifted.
1338
00:44:37.080 --> 00:44:38.986
And we was allowed to talk,
1339
00:44:38.986 --> 00:44:40.280
I couldn't communicate anyway.
1340
00:44:40.280 --> 00:44:43.637
So, obviously that was basically,
1341
00:44:43.637 --> 00:44:47.540
and the size was about three by three meters,
1342
00:44:47.540 --> 00:44:51.010
probably four by four max, five I would say.
1343
00:44:51.010 --> 00:44:51.903
Square like-
1344
00:44:53.300 --> 00:44:54.133
Can I go back
1345
00:44:54.133 --> 00:44:56.210
to something earlier, before we go into it?
1346
00:44:56.210 --> 00:44:57.290
Yeah, yeah.
1347
00:44:57.290 --> 00:44:58.360
Did you know if you...
1348
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:01.327
When the Americans took you, who was holding you
1349
00:45:01.327 --> 00:45:03.480
before the Americans took you?
1350
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:04.313
Who was holding you?
1351
00:45:04.313 --> 00:45:07.140
The Northern Alliance, general (indistinct).
1352
00:45:07.140 --> 00:45:08.890
And do you know if they...
1353
00:45:08.890 --> 00:45:10.220
Americans paid money for you.
1354
00:45:10.220 --> 00:45:12.501
From what we've heard when we was actually
1355
00:45:12.501 --> 00:45:14.130
being handed over, who was actually paid,
1356
00:45:14.130 --> 00:45:17.674
they paid them $35,000 for a person
1357
00:45:17.674 --> 00:45:18.897
who spoke English.
1358
00:45:18.897 --> 00:45:21.230
So, basically the Arabs, and the English speaking,
1359
00:45:21.230 --> 00:45:24.485
European people had more value than (chuckles)
1360
00:45:24.485 --> 00:45:26.290
the Afghani and Pakistani's, cause we got...
1361
00:45:26.290 --> 00:45:31.170
I got paid $35,000 for me, that was my price.
1362
00:45:31.170 --> 00:45:33.050
And for the Pakistanis and the Afghanis,
1363
00:45:33.050 --> 00:45:35.310
they got paid 5,000.
1364
00:45:35.310 --> 00:45:36.143
Hmm.
1365
00:45:36.143 --> 00:45:37.066
So...
1366
00:45:37.066 --> 00:45:38.930
And when you went to Kandahar,
1367
00:45:38.930 --> 00:45:41.290
did you ever see a doctor there at all?
1368
00:45:41.290 --> 00:45:42.838
There was medics there, but they was
1369
00:45:42.838 --> 00:45:44.847
kind of a waste of time.
1370
00:45:44.847 --> 00:45:45.775
Why?
They was there for nothing
1371
00:45:45.775 --> 00:45:47.590
because some of them,
1372
00:45:47.590 --> 00:45:50.880
some of the detainees had frostbite.
1373
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.670
Frostbite on the toes and that could be cured.
1374
00:45:53.670 --> 00:45:55.357
All they need is antibiotics, and so, and so,
1375
00:45:55.357 --> 00:45:56.970
and it would sort it out,
1376
00:45:56.970 --> 00:46:00.020
but they were refused medication whatsoever.
1377
00:46:00.020 --> 00:46:02.050
So, obviously when you've got frostbite,
1378
00:46:02.050 --> 00:46:03.150
it gets infected and it goes...
1379
00:46:03.150 --> 00:46:05.656
Start getting black, and eventually it dies,
1380
00:46:05.656 --> 00:46:07.730
your toe dies so it has to be amputated.
1381
00:46:07.730 --> 00:46:08.570
So they, you know-
1382
00:46:08.570 --> 00:46:09.780
What did the doctors do?
1383
00:46:09.780 --> 00:46:11.380
Were the doctors called to that?
1384
00:46:13.080 --> 00:46:14.960
All the doctors did if someone was injured,
1385
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:16.980
I mean, heavily injured it's like,
1386
00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:18.630
heavily injured if they got bullet wounds,
1387
00:46:18.630 --> 00:46:20.210
or shot bullet wounds, then they...
1388
00:46:20.210 --> 00:46:21.123
Even then I don't think they treated them.
1389
00:46:21.123 --> 00:46:24.050
They just poured iodine on top of that wound,
1390
00:46:24.050 --> 00:46:26.350
and whacked a bit of bandage on it, that's it.
1391
00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:28.500
Oh, and they gave...
1392
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:30.470
They used to always give constipation tablets
1393
00:46:30.470 --> 00:46:33.920
because (indistinct) cause they make
1394
00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:34.960
you constipated really bad.
1395
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:36.050
So, you don't go to the toilet for like,
1396
00:46:36.050 --> 00:46:37.300
three, four days (chuckles) sometimes.
1397
00:46:37.300 --> 00:46:38.270
So, eventually you start
1398
00:46:38.270 --> 00:46:39.380
getting cramps and stuff.
1399
00:46:39.380 --> 00:46:40.680
So, they would give you...
1400
00:46:42.140 --> 00:46:43.500
There's a small, very small tablet,
1401
00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:44.800
which was quite effective.
1402
00:46:46.038 --> 00:46:46.871
That's the only thing they would give you,
1403
00:46:46.871 --> 00:46:49.250
but just to go toilet. (chuckles)
1404
00:46:49.250 --> 00:46:50.650
And when you had
1405
00:46:50.650 --> 00:46:54.137
your interrogations in Kandahar,
1406
00:46:54.137 --> 00:46:56.840
did you ever get beaten for not answering,
1407
00:46:56.840 --> 00:46:58.350
or did you get beaten for any...
1408
00:46:58.350 --> 00:47:00.480
Or any other violence done to you
1409
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:02.030
during that time?
1410
00:47:02.030 --> 00:47:03.694
Majority of the time you would get beaten up
1411
00:47:03.694 --> 00:47:06.247
because you're not talking, or if they thought
1412
00:47:06.247 --> 00:47:07.970
you're not giving...
1413
00:47:07.970 --> 00:47:09.930
You're not being truthful,
1414
00:47:09.930 --> 00:47:11.970
because we always maintained that we was innocent
1415
00:47:11.970 --> 00:47:16.580
from day one, until we got to Guantanamo.
1416
00:47:16.580 --> 00:47:17.440
So, we always said like.
1417
00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:20.700
We went on the trip to Pakistan and so-and-so,
1418
00:47:20.700 --> 00:47:23.230
and this is how we've got to Afghanistan.
1419
00:47:23.230 --> 00:47:24.697
And they always said,
1420
00:47:24.697 --> 00:47:28.620
"No, that what you saying now is just bullshit."
1421
00:47:28.620 --> 00:47:30.350
In other words, this is what we think
1422
00:47:30.350 --> 00:47:31.447
you were actually not...
1423
00:47:31.447 --> 00:47:32.960
They don't say think, this is what you went.
1424
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:35.193
So, they actually were putting words in our mouth
1425
00:47:35.193 --> 00:47:36.108
and saying that we know that you
1426
00:47:36.108 --> 00:47:37.164
went for that reason.
1427
00:47:37.164 --> 00:47:38.507
You went to fight for the Taliban
1428
00:47:38.507 --> 00:47:40.677
because of 9/11 and because of the things
1429
00:47:40.677 --> 00:47:42.567
that were happening in Iraq.
1430
00:47:42.567 --> 00:47:45.030
You know all the ban on Saddam Hussein,
1431
00:47:45.030 --> 00:47:46.810
and all this mumbo jumbo I've never heard
1432
00:47:46.810 --> 00:47:47.643
of in my life.
1433
00:47:47.643 --> 00:47:50.330
I never knew Saddam Hussein was under sanctions.
1434
00:47:50.330 --> 00:47:51.163
I've never heard of Saddam Hussein
1435
00:47:51.163 --> 00:47:52.631
when I was young anyway. (chuckles)
1436
00:47:52.631 --> 00:47:54.030
I was not very politically
1437
00:47:54.030 --> 00:47:58.120
aware before Guantanamo.
1438
00:47:58.120 --> 00:48:01.033
So, the word sanction made no sense to me.
1439
00:48:01.033 --> 00:48:01.866
I was like,
1440
00:48:01.866 --> 00:48:02.880
"Well, what does that mean?" (chuckles)
1441
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:05.040
So, they was like giving these reasons.
1442
00:48:05.040 --> 00:48:07.210
So, you felt as a Muslim, you felt angry
1443
00:48:07.210 --> 00:48:09.610
to go out, 9/11 happened and there
1444
00:48:09.610 --> 00:48:11.240
was another attack on a Muslim nation,
1445
00:48:11.240 --> 00:48:13.080
which is Afghanistan, and you felt
1446
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:14.930
obliged to come and help
1447
00:48:14.930 --> 00:48:15.763
your fellow Muslim.
1448
00:48:15.763 --> 00:48:17.239
I was like, "I haven't got a clue
1449
00:48:17.239 --> 00:48:18.090
what you're talking about."
1450
00:48:18.090 --> 00:48:20.370
So, if you didn't say that, that was the reason
1451
00:48:20.370 --> 00:48:23.580
that they would beat you, or if they had somebody
1452
00:48:23.580 --> 00:48:24.413
that they thought,
1453
00:48:24.413 --> 00:48:26.020
who was also detained with you,
1454
00:48:26.020 --> 00:48:29.510
they thought that was somebody who they thought
1455
00:48:29.510 --> 00:48:31.592
that was linked to Al-Qaeda, or who was
1456
00:48:31.592 --> 00:48:34.478
very valuable to them.
1457
00:48:34.478 --> 00:48:35.311
And they was in the same tent,
1458
00:48:35.311 --> 00:48:37.210
and they would expect you to spy,
1459
00:48:37.210 --> 00:48:39.540
to listen out and to give information
1460
00:48:39.540 --> 00:48:40.620
in terms of what they're doing,
1461
00:48:40.620 --> 00:48:41.590
is the plan to escape?
1462
00:48:41.590 --> 00:48:43.102
Is the plan to kill somebody?
1463
00:48:43.102 --> 00:48:43.935
Would they ask
1464
00:48:43.935 --> 00:48:44.768
you those questions?
1465
00:48:44.768 --> 00:48:45.710
Yeah, and they would say, "We want you
1466
00:48:45.710 --> 00:48:48.407
to go in and be a spy, just listen out.
1467
00:48:48.407 --> 00:48:50.963
And if you ever hear anything tell the soldiers
1468
00:48:50.963 --> 00:48:52.343
that you wanna see the intel,
1469
00:48:52.343 --> 00:48:54.240
and we'll call you."
1470
00:48:54.240 --> 00:48:56.080
So, there was a lot of pressure from them
1471
00:48:56.080 --> 00:48:58.276
in terms of spying over the people,
1472
00:48:58.276 --> 00:48:59.650
but I always used to say, "First of all,
1473
00:48:59.650 --> 00:49:01.080
I'm not a spy for you because it's not my..."
1474
00:49:01.080 --> 00:49:02.740
It's not my job, do you know what I mean?
1475
00:49:02.740 --> 00:49:04.880
And why should I spy on the person
1476
00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:07.170
who's being treated the same as me?
1477
00:49:07.170 --> 00:49:08.003
Do you think you
1478
00:49:08.003 --> 00:49:10.073
were treated better since you spoke English?
1479
00:49:12.120 --> 00:49:13.510
In Guantanamo, yeah.
1480
00:49:13.510 --> 00:49:15.710
In Kandahar also, we was better off obviously,
1481
00:49:15.710 --> 00:49:18.160
than the Arab because we could understand
1482
00:49:18.160 --> 00:49:19.490
what's happening, even though we never
1483
00:49:19.490 --> 00:49:21.300
actually told anybody we was actually,
1484
00:49:21.300 --> 00:49:22.700
from the UK.
1485
00:49:22.700 --> 00:49:24.370
Because when you in that kind of situation,
1486
00:49:24.370 --> 00:49:25.730
you kind of, you wanna use that
1487
00:49:25.730 --> 00:49:26.990
to your advantage.
1488
00:49:26.990 --> 00:49:28.347
If you tell everybody you're from the UK,
1489
00:49:28.347 --> 00:49:29.530
then they don't...
1490
00:49:29.530 --> 00:49:30.750
They'll start talking in codes,
1491
00:49:30.750 --> 00:49:32.430
or they'll talk very quietly.
1492
00:49:32.430 --> 00:49:33.263
So, if you tell them
1493
00:49:33.263 --> 00:49:34.270
that you don't understand English,
1494
00:49:34.270 --> 00:49:36.320
and you act like an idiot,
1495
00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:39.447
they talk about things, they need to move you.
1496
00:49:39.447 --> 00:49:41.333
And basic things were known to us,
1497
00:49:41.333 --> 00:49:43.480
like when you watch military films,
1498
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:45.640
like they use a 24 hour clock.
1499
00:49:45.640 --> 00:49:48.530
They used bird as a plane, chow,
1500
00:49:48.530 --> 00:49:49.363
and stuff like that, you know?
1501
00:49:49.363 --> 00:49:50.690
Certain words they used
1502
00:49:50.690 --> 00:49:52.170
to describe certain things.
1503
00:49:52.170 --> 00:49:53.770
So, obviously we had the understanding,
1504
00:49:53.770 --> 00:49:56.180
and we used it to our benefit
1505
00:49:56.180 --> 00:49:57.241
to know what's happening.
1506
00:49:57.241 --> 00:49:59.140
Who's coming, if more detainees are coming in.
1507
00:49:59.140 --> 00:50:00.590
So, we just kept quiet,
1508
00:50:00.590 --> 00:50:01.440
didn't say we spoke English.
1509
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:03.540
Only the people who knew we spoke English
1510
00:50:03.540 --> 00:50:08.240
were a handful of military personnel,
1511
00:50:08.240 --> 00:50:09.350
and the interrogators, obviously,
1512
00:50:09.350 --> 00:50:10.810
because we told them we was from the UK.
1513
00:50:10.810 --> 00:50:12.677
But majority of them, we never told them.
1514
00:50:12.677 --> 00:50:14.730
So, when they would talk amongst themselves
1515
00:50:14.730 --> 00:50:16.440
about something that's happened in the camp,
1516
00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:18.330
we would just look at em like...
1517
00:50:18.330 --> 00:50:19.170
And when you say we,
1518
00:50:19.170 --> 00:50:20.327
who are you talking about?
1519
00:50:20.327 --> 00:50:21.450
Me, Shafiq and Asif,
1520
00:50:21.450 --> 00:50:24.850
because we was actually put together initially.
1521
00:50:24.850 --> 00:50:26.990
After two weeks, Asif was segregated from us.
1522
00:50:26.990 --> 00:50:28.350
He was sent to a different tent.
1523
00:50:28.350 --> 00:50:29.756
Why do you think?
1524
00:50:29.756 --> 00:50:30.589
I dunno, it was just random.
1525
00:50:30.589 --> 00:50:33.840
They would move, every day they would take five,
1526
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:35.117
put them out, put 'em to a different tent
1527
00:50:35.117 --> 00:50:36.330
and bring five from another tent,
1528
00:50:36.330 --> 00:50:38.220
and just keep on moving around.
1529
00:50:38.220 --> 00:50:40.550
I think it's to make sure that you don't
1530
00:50:40.550 --> 00:50:42.470
get to know somebody and start planning,
1531
00:50:42.470 --> 00:50:44.790
because if you're there for seven months,
1532
00:50:44.790 --> 00:50:46.797
or a year with the same kind of people
1533
00:50:46.797 --> 00:50:47.803
all the time.
1534
00:50:47.803 --> 00:50:49.067
Then you can actually start planning something,
1535
00:50:49.067 --> 00:50:51.867
but if you actually move us around, 24 hours
1536
00:50:51.867 --> 00:50:54.270
around the clock, then you can't plan.
1537
00:50:54.270 --> 00:50:56.840
So, I think it was like military thinking.
1538
00:50:56.840 --> 00:51:00.190
So, when you got to Guantanamo,
1539
00:51:00.190 --> 00:51:02.087
what was your first interrogation like?
1540
00:51:02.087 --> 00:51:03.710
Was it any different from what happened
1541
00:51:03.710 --> 00:51:04.760
in Kandahar, or was it-
1542
00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:07.263
It was actually more scary.
1543
00:51:08.150 --> 00:51:10.600
To me, it seems like from a movie
1544
00:51:10.600 --> 00:51:12.043
where you would see a person
1545
00:51:12.043 --> 00:51:14.070
who was being imprisoned,
1546
00:51:14.070 --> 00:51:16.220
because when I first got into interrogating
1547
00:51:18.588 --> 00:51:19.421
in Guantanamo, when I walked in,
1548
00:51:19.421 --> 00:51:20.783
it was a fairly big room.
1549
00:51:21.623 --> 00:51:24.120
It was made of all, like wood,
1550
00:51:24.120 --> 00:51:26.440
and they had a massive table in the front.
1551
00:51:26.440 --> 00:51:28.943
And then they had this huge guy, bald guy,
1552
00:51:28.943 --> 00:51:31.923
and he was like, not just big, he was built.
1553
00:51:31.923 --> 00:51:34.090
Like really, really massive dude
1554
00:51:34.090 --> 00:51:36.355
and he was wearing his vest and he had
1555
00:51:36.355 --> 00:51:37.750
all his muscles were kind of popping out,
1556
00:51:37.750 --> 00:51:40.430
which he looked scary, and he had a stubble.
1557
00:51:40.430 --> 00:51:42.531
And a bald dude, and I thought, shit.
1558
00:51:42.531 --> 00:51:43.757
(chuckles) I'm in trouble.
1559
00:51:43.757 --> 00:51:46.710
And they had along the back of the room,
1560
00:51:46.710 --> 00:51:50.013
they had about 15 to 20 guys sitting,
1561
00:51:50.884 --> 00:51:52.650
and they looked like officers.
1562
00:51:52.650 --> 00:51:54.740
Sitting all there around, so they had a table,
1563
00:51:54.740 --> 00:51:56.110
as me and you are.
1564
00:51:56.110 --> 00:51:58.970
The guy's there, I'm here, and along that room
1565
00:51:58.970 --> 00:52:00.991
they had like about 15, 20 guys sitting.
1566
00:52:00.991 --> 00:52:02.810
And I was like, "What's happening here?"
1567
00:52:02.810 --> 00:52:04.820
It's like from a film.
1568
00:52:04.820 --> 00:52:09.280
I had a guy on my right, and a guy on the left
1569
00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:10.940
with the guns.
1570
00:52:10.940 --> 00:52:13.100
And one guy obviously standing outside,
1571
00:52:13.100 --> 00:52:17.390
and he was being very serious cause later on,
1572
00:52:17.390 --> 00:52:19.290
things became more relaxed for us
1573
00:52:19.290 --> 00:52:21.050
with the interrogation stuff.
1574
00:52:21.050 --> 00:52:23.810
But with this guy, he was like, down to business,
1575
00:52:23.810 --> 00:52:25.783
very serious, he looked the part.
1576
00:52:26.930 --> 00:52:28.800
I'm like, oof, I'm in trouble now.
1577
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:29.987
And he asked me basic things,
1578
00:52:29.987 --> 00:52:30.820
"What school did you go to?
1579
00:52:30.820 --> 00:52:32.040
Where year was you born?"
1580
00:52:33.061 --> 00:52:35.720
From childhood to now, I had to give him
1581
00:52:35.720 --> 00:52:37.750
all the names of my family, people I know,
1582
00:52:37.750 --> 00:52:41.150
people who when I was, I went to school with.
1583
00:52:41.150 --> 00:52:42.430
Took all my information.
1584
00:52:42.430 --> 00:52:44.140
I was there for maybe six hours,
1585
00:52:44.140 --> 00:52:44.973
and all the other guys
1586
00:52:44.973 --> 00:52:46.870
were kind of, sitting there, but nothing...
1587
00:52:46.870 --> 00:52:48.310
I mean, I didn't get physically abused,
1588
00:52:48.310 --> 00:52:49.143
or nothing like that.
1589
00:52:49.143 --> 00:52:50.440
It was just like, he looked very serious.
1590
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:51.530
It was like,
1591
00:52:51.530 --> 00:52:53.460
you're getting interrogated, basically.
1592
00:52:53.460 --> 00:52:55.130
And he was just taking notes.
1593
00:52:55.130 --> 00:52:56.597
That was my very first interrogation,
1594
00:52:56.597 --> 00:52:58.470
and obviously after that, I was seen
1595
00:52:58.470 --> 00:53:00.423
by the MI5 the next day.
1596
00:53:00.423 --> 00:53:01.256
By what?
1597
00:53:01.256 --> 00:53:02.410
By the MI5.
1598
00:53:02.410 --> 00:53:04.153
The MI5 came the next day?
1599
00:53:04.153 --> 00:53:04.986
Yeah, dunno if it was the next day,
1600
00:53:04.986 --> 00:53:05.989
they came the next day.
1601
00:53:05.989 --> 00:53:06.930
And what happened there?
1602
00:53:06.930 --> 00:53:08.447
It was the same thing, it was like,
1603
00:53:08.447 --> 00:53:10.390
they came and they said, we're basically the MI5.
1604
00:53:10.390 --> 00:53:11.620
I've obviously heard of the MI5,
1605
00:53:11.620 --> 00:53:13.583
so I knew what the MI5 was, and there was a guy
1606
00:53:13.583 --> 00:53:14.883
from the foreign office.
1607
00:53:16.060 --> 00:53:18.160
He introduced himself, and basically asked me
1608
00:53:18.160 --> 00:53:21.270
about my welfare, if I'm doing okay.
1609
00:53:21.270 --> 00:53:23.460
If I am okay because obviously, I had spoken
1610
00:53:23.460 --> 00:53:24.690
to his colleague before.
1611
00:53:24.690 --> 00:53:25.640
And he asked me (chuckles) if I'm okay
1612
00:53:25.640 --> 00:53:28.620
when I was like the way I was.
1613
00:53:28.620 --> 00:53:29.820
It's the same thing, I was still chained up
1614
00:53:29.820 --> 00:53:31.380
and he was asking, I said, "Yeah, fine,"
1615
00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:33.900
because to me, I think I realized
1616
00:53:33.900 --> 00:53:35.020
that even if I say I'm not okay,
1617
00:53:35.020 --> 00:53:36.990
they'll say, "Okay."
1618
00:53:36.990 --> 00:53:38.167
So, there's nothing they can do for me.
1619
00:53:38.167 --> 00:53:40.360
So, there's no point of really complaining,
1620
00:53:40.360 --> 00:53:41.490
and even though we did complain
1621
00:53:41.490 --> 00:53:43.253
on many occasions, but after a while you think,
1622
00:53:43.253 --> 00:53:44.410
it's not worth complaining.
1623
00:53:44.410 --> 00:53:46.250
It's not actually worth saying anything to them.
1624
00:53:46.250 --> 00:53:48.620
And then my father actually went through
1625
00:53:48.620 --> 00:53:51.370
the same thing, date of birth, age,
1626
00:53:51.370 --> 00:53:52.860
who you know, where you're from,
1627
00:53:52.860 --> 00:53:54.430
background history basically.
1628
00:53:54.430 --> 00:53:57.170
And then they went back away for about two hours
1629
00:53:57.170 --> 00:53:58.003
and they bought me some Macky D's,
1630
00:53:58.003 --> 00:53:59.030
I had some dinner.
1631
00:53:59.030 --> 00:54:01.550
Stayed still, stayed in that interrogation room.
1632
00:54:01.550 --> 00:54:03.040
They came back they said, "Well, we've gone
1633
00:54:03.040 --> 00:54:05.080
over your story, and we think you've lied.
1634
00:54:05.080 --> 00:54:06.750
And this is the reason why we think
1635
00:54:06.750 --> 00:54:08.320
you came to Afghanistan.
1636
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:10.250
We have your files that you was part
1637
00:54:10.250 --> 00:54:12.090
of this group, (indistinct) in the UK,
1638
00:54:12.090 --> 00:54:13.810
and all the other groups I've never heard
1639
00:54:13.810 --> 00:54:14.660
of in my life.
1640
00:54:14.660 --> 00:54:15.493
I was like, who's (indistinct),
1641
00:54:15.493 --> 00:54:16.740
and who's this group?
1642
00:54:16.740 --> 00:54:20.410
And they tried to link us with mosques and say,
1643
00:54:20.410 --> 00:54:23.320
we went on marches and all this madness.
1644
00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:25.280
I was like, "Nope, I haven't got a clue
1645
00:54:25.280 --> 00:54:26.230
what you're talking about."
1646
00:54:26.230 --> 00:54:29.611
And that went on for the two and a half years
1647
00:54:29.611 --> 00:54:30.790
I was there.
1648
00:54:30.790 --> 00:54:32.950
When the MI5, did they seem
1649
00:54:32.950 --> 00:54:34.845
supportive of you?
1650
00:54:34.845 --> 00:54:35.840
No, they...
1651
00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:38.980
I mean, we didn't get physically beaten
1652
00:54:38.980 --> 00:54:41.850
by the MI5, but obviously we got verbal abuse
1653
00:54:41.850 --> 00:54:42.683
from the MI5.
1654
00:54:44.457 --> 00:54:45.403
Was an American always present
1655
00:54:45.403 --> 00:54:47.010
for the MI5, or were they-
1656
00:54:47.010 --> 00:54:49.720
No, sometimes yes, sometimes no.
1657
00:54:49.720 --> 00:54:51.360
They would leave them to it,
1658
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:52.560
but they always had...
1659
00:54:54.110 --> 00:54:56.224
They've got another room always...
1660
00:54:56.224 --> 00:54:57.077
How can I...
1661
00:54:57.077 --> 00:54:58.848
I think it's like a CCTV room,
1662
00:54:58.848 --> 00:54:59.681
which they monitor.
1663
00:54:59.681 --> 00:55:01.922
So, they got cameras and they got people,
1664
00:55:01.922 --> 00:55:02.837
and they can obviously hear
1665
00:55:02.837 --> 00:55:03.670
what you're talking about.
1666
00:55:03.670 --> 00:55:04.503
So, they've all...
1667
00:55:04.503 --> 00:55:05.336
Even though they're not present in that room,
1668
00:55:05.336 --> 00:55:06.169
they'll be in the next room
1669
00:55:06.169 --> 00:55:07.002
that they can hear you, and watch you
1670
00:55:07.002 --> 00:55:08.230
on the monitor.
1671
00:55:08.230 --> 00:55:09.160
When you said that
1672
00:55:09.160 --> 00:55:11.490
it got better with the interrogations
1673
00:55:11.490 --> 00:55:12.760
with the Americans over time,
1674
00:55:12.760 --> 00:55:13.840
why would they get better?
1675
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:15.496
What made them better?
1676
00:55:15.496 --> 00:55:16.770
I mean, it got better to a certain extent
1677
00:55:16.770 --> 00:55:21.260
with certain interrogators.
1678
00:55:21.260 --> 00:55:23.820
It was like, when I first got there,
1679
00:55:23.820 --> 00:55:26.660
then I was handed over to this guy,
1680
00:55:26.660 --> 00:55:28.260
I would only see him.
1681
00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:29.880
This guy, I should say for, and he was
1682
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:31.590
an American intelligence officer.
1683
00:55:31.590 --> 00:55:33.310
And he was in the military, cause he always used
1684
00:55:33.310 --> 00:55:34.407
to wear military clothes.
1685
00:55:34.407 --> 00:55:35.920
I dunno if it was like army, or Navy,
1686
00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:38.701
or whatever branch he's from.
1687
00:55:38.701 --> 00:55:39.880
I haven't got a clue, but he was actually
1688
00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:41.640
quite nice to me, and very friendly
1689
00:55:41.640 --> 00:55:43.120
every time I seen him, and I seen him
1690
00:55:43.120 --> 00:55:44.560
for maybe, like seven months.
1691
00:55:44.560 --> 00:55:46.600
So, every three, four weeks I would go
1692
00:55:46.600 --> 00:55:47.660
to see him, so I'd see him once a month.
1693
00:55:47.660 --> 00:55:50.157
I was in total seen him for about seven times,
1694
00:55:50.157 --> 00:55:51.990
and every time, even from the first time
1695
00:55:51.990 --> 00:55:52.823
I told him my story.
1696
00:55:52.823 --> 00:55:54.530
He actually never said to me I was lying.
1697
00:55:54.530 --> 00:55:56.070
He actually never said that,
1698
00:55:56.070 --> 00:55:57.089
this is what I think.
1699
00:55:57.089 --> 00:55:58.680
It seemed to me that he was actually
1700
00:55:58.680 --> 00:55:59.990
doing his job.
1701
00:55:59.990 --> 00:56:02.000
He's taking the information and going back,
1702
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:02.860
researching what I'm saying,
1703
00:56:02.860 --> 00:56:04.030
if it's right or wrong.
1704
00:56:04.030 --> 00:56:05.530
And he's not trying to blame me for something
1705
00:56:05.530 --> 00:56:06.880
that he hasn't got enough evidence,
1706
00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:09.490
or any factual evidence against me.
1707
00:56:09.490 --> 00:56:11.210
So, it seemed quite genuine to me.
1708
00:56:11.210 --> 00:56:13.650
And he also used to bring me food all
1709
00:56:13.650 --> 00:56:14.660
the time without fail.
1710
00:56:14.660 --> 00:56:16.440
He would bring me Macky D's, bring me drinks.
1711
00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:17.720
He'd bring me pizza's,
1712
00:56:17.720 --> 00:56:20.410
and this is like the first stage of Guantanamo.
1713
00:56:20.410 --> 00:56:23.100
A lot of people were going through a lot of shit,
1714
00:56:23.100 --> 00:56:25.120
I kind of found it quite easy.
1715
00:56:25.120 --> 00:56:27.560
Also, he would have given me, in my cell,
1716
00:56:27.560 --> 00:56:29.340
I was probably one of the first detainees,
1717
00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:30.330
actually probably the first detainee
1718
00:56:30.330 --> 00:56:33.180
to actually get any kind of reading material.
1719
00:56:33.180 --> 00:56:35.480
He came and gave me a few books.
1720
00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:37.429
He gave me "Planet of the Apes."
1721
00:56:37.429 --> 00:56:40.310
He gave me, "The Flying Dutchman,"
1722
00:56:40.310 --> 00:56:41.143
something like that.
1723
00:56:41.143 --> 00:56:42.230
So, why would he give it to you
1724
00:56:42.230 --> 00:56:43.890
instead of the other Englishman?
1725
00:56:43.890 --> 00:56:44.830
I haven't got a clue.
1726
00:56:44.830 --> 00:56:47.533
I think, because he was allocated to me.
1727
00:56:48.390 --> 00:56:50.620
At the beginning, you was allocated
1728
00:56:50.620 --> 00:56:53.080
a particular guy, who was interrogating you,
1729
00:56:53.080 --> 00:56:54.270
he's familiar with you.
1730
00:56:54.270 --> 00:56:55.120
He knows your story.
1731
00:56:55.120 --> 00:56:56.980
So, I think it's like getting to know the person
1732
00:56:56.980 --> 00:56:59.190
on an individual basis rather than,
1733
00:56:59.190 --> 00:57:00.513
you seeing me, then this guy sees me,
1734
00:57:00.513 --> 00:57:01.990
then this guy sees me.
1735
00:57:01.990 --> 00:57:03.960
Nobody's got a clue what that was going on.
1736
00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:05.130
So, I think, at the beginning,
1737
00:57:05.130 --> 00:57:06.260
that's how they try to do it.
1738
00:57:06.260 --> 00:57:09.153
But later on when he left, things changed.
1739
00:57:09.153 --> 00:57:11.770
I never seen one guy second time,
1740
00:57:11.770 --> 00:57:13.653
it was always changed.
1741
00:57:14.580 --> 00:57:16.961
So, he was fair and nice to me,
1742
00:57:16.961 --> 00:57:17.810
I dunno why he was nice to me,
1743
00:57:17.810 --> 00:57:19.700
but he was cool with me.
1744
00:57:19.700 --> 00:57:20.803
And he done a lot of things for me,
1745
00:57:20.803 --> 00:57:22.800
he gave me letters.
1746
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:24.020
My family wrote letters to me,
1747
00:57:24.020 --> 00:57:25.230
and he actually brought the letters to me,
1748
00:57:25.230 --> 00:57:26.880
and he would come to my...
1749
00:57:28.600 --> 00:57:31.990
When I went to Guantanamo, I was actually moved
1750
00:57:31.990 --> 00:57:33.630
when we first went to Camp X-ray,
1751
00:57:33.630 --> 00:57:35.630
then the Camp Delta was built,
1752
00:57:35.630 --> 00:57:37.110
it was all transferred there.
1753
00:57:37.110 --> 00:57:40.690
I actually went to isolation for the first month.
1754
00:57:40.690 --> 00:57:41.523
Why is that?
1755
00:57:41.523 --> 00:57:42.950
I haven't got a clue, but obviously,
1756
00:57:42.950 --> 00:57:44.190
when I went there, I never knew
1757
00:57:44.190 --> 00:57:45.160
that was isolation.
1758
00:57:45.160 --> 00:57:46.560
I thought, this is the prison.
1759
00:57:46.560 --> 00:57:47.480
This is how everybody's in.
1760
00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:50.163
And all I knew I was actually in India block.
1761
00:57:51.340 --> 00:57:52.540
They call it I, so they used to call
1762
00:57:52.540 --> 00:57:53.373
it India block.
1763
00:57:54.560 --> 00:57:58.643
But after being in India block for three weeks,
1764
00:58:00.170 --> 00:58:01.760
one of the guys, one of the guy soldiers
1765
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:02.720
I got to know quite well.
1766
00:58:02.720 --> 00:58:04.260
He asked me, he goes, "Why are you in isolation?"
1767
00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:06.330
So, this is isolation?
1768
00:58:06.330 --> 00:58:08.090
I thought this is the normal...
1769
00:58:08.090 --> 00:58:09.390
This is normal for everybody.
1770
00:58:09.390 --> 00:58:10.790
He's said, "No, this is isolation.
1771
00:58:10.790 --> 00:58:11.623
You've been isolated
1772
00:58:11.623 --> 00:58:12.860
because you've done something wrong.
1773
00:58:12.860 --> 00:58:14.900
You've either been in trouble,
1774
00:58:14.900 --> 00:58:18.240
or your interrogator has requested
1775
00:58:18.240 --> 00:58:19.870
for you to be isolated."
1776
00:58:19.870 --> 00:58:22.830
So, when I went to see my interrogator next week,
1777
00:58:22.830 --> 00:58:23.837
or a few days after, I asked him,
1778
00:58:23.837 --> 00:58:25.670
"So why am I in isolation?"
1779
00:58:25.670 --> 00:58:27.190
Cause I never knew, cause I don't know
1780
00:58:27.190 --> 00:58:28.430
if I was in isolation.
1781
00:58:28.430 --> 00:58:30.480
So, he actually got me out after a month,
1782
00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:32.690
he got me moved to camp...
1783
00:58:32.690 --> 00:58:33.523
Which was Camp Delta,
1784
00:58:33.523 --> 00:58:36.600
which was block C, Charlie block.
1785
00:58:36.600 --> 00:58:38.860
That's where he got me moved,
1786
00:58:38.860 --> 00:58:39.693
and that's when I realized,
1787
00:58:39.693 --> 00:58:42.130
so for one month I've been in isolation,
1788
00:58:42.130 --> 00:58:43.190
I never had a clue.
1789
00:58:43.190 --> 00:58:44.030
And he never explained
1790
00:58:44.030 --> 00:58:44.863
to you why?
No.
1791
00:58:44.863 --> 00:58:46.867
He goes, "I dunno why you're there,"
1792
00:58:46.867 --> 00:58:48.900
but for some reason he goes, "It's not me,
1793
00:58:48.900 --> 00:58:51.370
but you must have got in trouble."
1794
00:58:51.370 --> 00:58:52.930
I said, "No, I've never been in trouble.
1795
00:58:52.930 --> 00:58:54.220
I haven't swore, I haven't spat.
1796
00:58:54.220 --> 00:58:55.350
I haven't done anything."
1797
00:58:55.350 --> 00:58:56.857
So, I tried to find out, but obviously,
1798
00:58:56.857 --> 00:58:59.687
you're on a need to know basis in Guantanamo.
1799
00:58:59.687 --> 00:59:01.090
So, they tell you what you need to know.
1800
00:59:01.090 --> 00:59:01.953
So, then obviously, after the month
1801
00:59:01.953 --> 00:59:02.883
I was moved out.
1802
00:59:03.979 --> 00:59:04.812
Did you ever go
1803
00:59:04.812 --> 00:59:05.645
back to isolation?
1804
00:59:05.645 --> 00:59:06.478
Oh, many times. (chuckles)
1805
00:59:06.478 --> 00:59:08.810
Why did you go back other times?
1806
00:59:08.810 --> 00:59:11.110
Once I got sent to isolation for two weeks
1807
00:59:11.110 --> 00:59:13.151
for singing a song. (laughs)
1808
00:59:13.151 --> 00:59:15.257
Can you tell me what that was?
1809
00:59:15.257 --> 00:59:17.622
It was a song that I think,
1810
00:59:17.622 --> 00:59:21.370
I can't remember who sings it, but it goes...
1811
00:59:21.370 --> 00:59:23.609
I think actually, 2Pac sings it, and it goes
1812
00:59:23.609 --> 00:59:25.609
something down the line,
1813
00:59:29.130 --> 00:59:31.180
bow down when you come in my town,
1814
00:59:31.180 --> 00:59:33.110
bow down because I'm Westwood bound.
1815
00:59:33.110 --> 00:59:34.217
Something like that, that song,
1816
00:59:34.217 --> 00:59:36.160
but really, we'd actually changed
1817
00:59:36.160 --> 00:59:37.070
some of the words.
1818
00:59:37.070 --> 00:59:39.640
So, when this female woman,
1819
00:59:39.640 --> 00:59:42.020
who used to be a sergeant, we used to hate her.
1820
00:59:42.020 --> 00:59:42.853
Everybody used to hate her.
1821
00:59:42.853 --> 00:59:43.840
She used to be so bad,
1822
00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:46.540
So, when she used to walk on our block,
1823
00:59:46.540 --> 00:59:47.947
on her shift, I used to sing the song,
1824
00:59:47.947 --> 00:59:49.660
bow down when you come on the block,
1825
00:59:49.660 --> 00:59:52.540
bow down because I'm a detainee greater than you.
1826
00:59:52.540 --> 00:59:53.610
(chuckles) And because of that reason,
1827
00:59:53.610 --> 00:59:55.030
I got sent to isolation.
1828
00:59:55.030 --> 00:59:57.393
There's more to it, there's more lyrics to it,
1829
00:59:57.393 --> 00:59:59.440
I've just kind of forgot, it's been so long.
1830
00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:00.757
And she stood there and listened to me,
1831
01:00:00.757 --> 01:00:01.810
and she laughed.
1832
01:00:01.810 --> 01:00:04.205
She goes, "You find that funny?"
1833
01:00:04.205 --> 01:00:05.260
I said, "I find it very funny."
1834
01:00:05.260 --> 01:00:06.157
I go, "So, bow down."
1835
01:00:06.157 --> 01:00:09.030
And then she goes, "All right," she went back,
1836
01:00:09.030 --> 01:00:10.326
then the guards come to put me in isolation
1837
01:00:10.326 --> 01:00:11.844
for two weeks. (laughs)
1838
01:00:11.844 --> 01:00:12.875
So, it was funny.
1839
01:00:12.875 --> 01:00:15.099
Did you mind being in isolation?
1840
01:00:15.099 --> 01:00:17.494
To be honest with you, in the beginning,
1841
01:00:17.494 --> 01:00:19.290
if it's for two weeks, one day, two days,
1842
01:00:19.290 --> 01:00:21.489
it's fine cause it gives you time to reflect
1843
01:00:21.489 --> 01:00:22.430
and you're away from everybody.
1844
01:00:22.430 --> 01:00:25.400
So, you get to contemplate, to chill out,
1845
01:00:25.400 --> 01:00:27.230
relax, you're away from everybody.
1846
01:00:27.230 --> 01:00:28.200
You don't hear the screaming.
1847
01:00:28.200 --> 01:00:29.620
You don't hear the arguments.
1848
01:00:29.620 --> 01:00:30.660
So, you kind of have your...
1849
01:00:31.535 --> 01:00:33.290
You get to reflect on life.
1850
01:00:33.290 --> 01:00:37.270
So, in one way it's good only for two weeks,
1851
01:00:37.270 --> 01:00:38.430
probably I would say max,
1852
01:00:38.430 --> 01:00:39.870
but then another time I was in isolation
1853
01:00:39.870 --> 01:00:42.460
for about five months, continuous.
1854
01:00:42.460 --> 01:00:44.390
That was me, there was about four to five,
1855
01:00:44.390 --> 01:00:48.170
me, Shafiq and Asif was in isolation
1856
01:00:48.170 --> 01:00:50.200
for a very long period, because during
1857
01:00:50.200 --> 01:00:51.900
the end of my detention, in 2003
1858
01:00:51.900 --> 01:00:54.150
when General Miller came, things had changed.
1859
01:00:55.130 --> 01:00:57.583
That's when things went worse.
1860
01:00:57.583 --> 01:01:01.560
We had the stress positions came out,
1861
01:01:01.560 --> 01:01:04.004
the strobe light, the music,
1862
01:01:04.004 --> 01:01:07.510
the frequent flyer program where you moved
1863
01:01:07.510 --> 01:01:09.920
every 15 minutes throughout the clock.
1864
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:11.530
You had the sleep deprivation, obviously
1865
01:01:11.530 --> 01:01:13.030
it was just a single night.
1866
01:01:13.030 --> 01:01:15.270
Then you had the food deprivation.
1867
01:01:15.270 --> 01:01:17.890
If you're in isolation, you get a limited amount
1868
01:01:17.890 --> 01:01:20.060
of food, they would portion your food,
1869
01:01:20.060 --> 01:01:20.940
and you wouldn't get seconds.
1870
01:01:20.940 --> 01:01:22.150
Sometimes in other blocks
1871
01:01:22.150 --> 01:01:22.983
you would actually get seconds,
1872
01:01:22.983 --> 01:01:25.160
depending on who you were.
1873
01:01:25.160 --> 01:01:26.720
Not everybody gets seconds, only depending-
1874
01:01:26.720 --> 01:01:28.050
What do you mean by who you were?
1875
01:01:28.050 --> 01:01:29.610
If you was a Brit, if you...
1876
01:01:29.610 --> 01:01:30.880
If you were a Brit you got
1877
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:33.019
a second, but maybe if you were Arab, you didn't?
1878
01:01:33.019 --> 01:01:33.852
Yeah, yeah.
1879
01:01:33.852 --> 01:01:36.900
No, well, obviously the Brits had more priority,
1880
01:01:36.900 --> 01:01:38.950
you can say in Guantanamo.
1881
01:01:38.950 --> 01:01:41.070
You can say that because our treatment wasn't
1882
01:01:41.070 --> 01:01:43.550
as worse compared to many of them, many people,
1883
01:01:43.550 --> 01:01:44.383
but at the same time,
1884
01:01:44.383 --> 01:01:46.060
depending on the individual,
1885
01:01:46.060 --> 01:01:48.130
how friendly the detainee was.
1886
01:01:48.130 --> 01:01:51.370
Because I know one Brit that everybody hated him
1887
01:01:51.370 --> 01:01:54.440
because he was quite upfront, very arrogant.
1888
01:01:54.440 --> 01:01:55.420
He just spit.
1889
01:01:55.420 --> 01:01:56.460
He used to throw urine.
1890
01:01:56.460 --> 01:01:58.870
He would throw feces at MP's.
1891
01:01:58.870 --> 01:01:59.940
So, obviously they're not gonna like him
1892
01:01:59.940 --> 01:02:00.773
because of that reason.
1893
01:02:00.773 --> 01:02:01.606
I never did that kind of thing
1894
01:02:01.606 --> 01:02:03.290
because I think it's not right
1895
01:02:03.290 --> 01:02:04.310
to spit on somebody.
1896
01:02:04.310 --> 01:02:05.880
What happened to him?
1897
01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:07.160
Well, he was always also
1898
01:02:07.160 --> 01:02:08.310
in isolation for many...
1899
01:02:08.310 --> 01:02:10.900
He spent, I think, most of his time over
1900
01:02:10.900 --> 01:02:14.070
probably one year, six months just in isolation.
1901
01:02:14.070 --> 01:02:15.430
Did he get earthed also?
1902
01:02:15.430 --> 01:02:16.800
Yeah, he got earthed many times.
1903
01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:17.891
I mean, we all got earthed,
1904
01:02:17.891 --> 01:02:19.580
but I think (chuckles) he got earthed...
1905
01:02:19.580 --> 01:02:20.550
You can't count the numbers,
1906
01:02:20.550 --> 01:02:21.740
that's how many times he got earthed.
1907
01:02:21.740 --> 01:02:23.870
Because anything used to happen,
1908
01:02:23.870 --> 01:02:24.803
he used to go mad.
1909
01:02:25.900 --> 01:02:27.660
Any little thing that he used
1910
01:02:27.660 --> 01:02:32.250
to go berserk, basically, and I was more cool,
1911
01:02:32.250 --> 01:02:33.630
relaxed, if something happened
1912
01:02:33.630 --> 01:02:34.683
I thought, this happened.
1913
01:02:34.683 --> 01:02:36.820
Aint nothing can do behind a cage.
1914
01:02:36.820 --> 01:02:37.760
I mean, if I was in front of the guy
1915
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:40.320
and he did it, then it's a whole different story.
1916
01:02:40.320 --> 01:02:42.940
I can do something about it, but when you like,
1917
01:02:42.940 --> 01:02:46.680
a prisoner, there's no point sometimes
1918
01:02:46.680 --> 01:02:47.620
fighting, or restricting,
1919
01:02:47.620 --> 01:02:49.000
because they're always gonna win.
1920
01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:53.000
So, you kind of just go with the flow.
1921
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:54.720
So, I used to get along,
1922
01:02:54.720 --> 01:02:56.460
I was one of the detainees probably,
1923
01:02:56.460 --> 01:02:59.822
who got on with a lot of guards, you can say.
1924
01:02:59.822 --> 01:03:04.428
Majority of the guards knew me, Asif and Shafiq.
1925
01:03:04.428 --> 01:03:06.870
We was actually quite well known throughout
1926
01:03:06.870 --> 01:03:08.540
the American soldiers.
1927
01:03:08.540 --> 01:03:10.970
We was known as the Three Kings of Guantanamo.
1928
01:03:10.970 --> 01:03:12.548
What does that mean?
1929
01:03:12.548 --> 01:03:14.340
Towards the end of our release,
1930
01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:16.300
we had more privileges than anybody.
1931
01:03:16.300 --> 01:03:18.210
We had extra things in our cell
1932
01:03:18.210 --> 01:03:19.890
that we were not allowed to have.
1933
01:03:19.890 --> 01:03:23.490
We had a tub of Gatorade, a whole tub of Gatorade
1934
01:03:23.490 --> 01:03:24.710
in our cell.
1935
01:03:24.710 --> 01:03:27.010
We used to have six meals instead of three meals.
1936
01:03:27.010 --> 01:03:28.090
We actually have double portions
1937
01:03:28.090 --> 01:03:29.540
on six meals. (chuckles)
1938
01:03:29.540 --> 01:03:30.503
So-
The Guards
1939
01:03:30.503 --> 01:03:31.336
would give you all this?
1940
01:03:31.336 --> 01:03:32.740
Yeah, we was actually given it
1941
01:03:32.740 --> 01:03:34.290
because the interrogators wrote
1942
01:03:34.290 --> 01:03:35.430
that we were allowed to have it,
1943
01:03:35.430 --> 01:03:37.520
and that was because we was getting released.
1944
01:03:37.520 --> 01:03:38.620
So, it was like three months before
1945
01:03:38.620 --> 01:03:40.690
we got out, things changed.
1946
01:03:40.690 --> 01:03:44.240
Me, Asif and Shafiq, we used to go to watch
1947
01:03:44.240 --> 01:03:46.130
a film every Sunday without fail
1948
01:03:46.130 --> 01:03:48.320
for the three months before we left.
1949
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:49.153
We used to go to this place called
1950
01:03:49.153 --> 01:03:50.627
the Love Shack, which is a fairly big room,
1951
01:03:50.627 --> 01:03:51.950
and they actually take and remove
1952
01:03:51.950 --> 01:03:53.110
all your shackles.
1953
01:03:53.110 --> 01:03:54.160
And there would be soldiers sitting
1954
01:03:54.160 --> 01:03:54.993
there with you.
1955
01:03:54.993 --> 01:03:55.826
So, we were sitting on the sofa,
1956
01:03:55.826 --> 01:03:56.930
and the soldiers actually sitting there,
1957
01:03:56.930 --> 01:03:58.000
and you'd be sitting next to a soldier,
1958
01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:00.500
which was kind of weird.
1959
01:04:00.500 --> 01:04:01.333
Do you know what I mean?
1960
01:04:01.333 --> 01:04:03.130
And they become very friendly with us.
1961
01:04:03.130 --> 01:04:04.227
We became friendly with them
1962
01:04:04.227 --> 01:04:05.700
and we would sit down, and even the soldiers
1963
01:04:05.700 --> 01:04:08.050
would sit down and we would watch TV together.
1964
01:04:08.050 --> 01:04:09.462
We would listen to the radio.
1965
01:04:09.462 --> 01:04:10.423
Sometimes they would leave the radio on
1966
01:04:10.423 --> 01:04:11.706
and we would listen to the radio,
1967
01:04:11.706 --> 01:04:12.539
and we'd watch TV.
1968
01:04:12.539 --> 01:04:14.090
We watched quite a few films there.
1969
01:04:14.090 --> 01:04:17.960
We watched James Bond with Halle Berry,
1970
01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:19.963
Tomorrow Never Dies, I think that one.
1971
01:04:23.810 --> 01:04:24.953
We must have watched about six, seven films.
1972
01:04:24.953 --> 01:04:26.731
I can't remember which ones,
1973
01:04:26.731 --> 01:04:27.820
but we watched quite a few in Guantanamo.
1974
01:04:27.820 --> 01:04:28.670
So, when you were there
1975
01:04:28.670 --> 01:04:30.580
for five months in isolation,
1976
01:04:30.580 --> 01:04:31.413
why was that terrible?
1977
01:04:31.413 --> 01:04:33.210
That was because obviously,
1978
01:04:33.210 --> 01:04:35.210
throughout my detention
1979
01:04:35.210 --> 01:04:38.710
I was accused of many things.
1980
01:04:38.710 --> 01:04:39.960
Of being part of...
1981
01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:41.310
First of all, you start off with you're
1982
01:04:41.310 --> 01:04:42.562
a member of the Taliban.
1983
01:04:42.562 --> 01:04:44.090
(indistinct) And slowly, slowly,
1984
01:04:44.090 --> 01:04:45.410
you move up the ranks.
1985
01:04:45.410 --> 01:04:47.354
You become a lieutenant, colonel, captain,
1986
01:04:47.354 --> 01:04:48.187
blah, blah, blah and eventually
1987
01:04:48.187 --> 01:04:49.020
in the general. (chuckles)
1988
01:04:49.020 --> 01:04:50.807
Then once they've gone through that phase
1989
01:04:50.807 --> 01:04:53.120
and they think, well, the Taliban doesn't
1990
01:04:53.120 --> 01:04:54.730
really mean much to us.
1991
01:04:54.730 --> 01:04:56.360
We wanna know if you're Al-Qaeda,
1992
01:04:56.360 --> 01:04:58.200
that's what we wanna get you on.
1993
01:04:58.200 --> 01:04:59.570
So, then you become like a full soldier
1994
01:04:59.570 --> 01:05:00.860
for Al-Qaeda, then you slowly move up
1995
01:05:00.860 --> 01:05:01.693
the ranks again.
1996
01:05:02.670 --> 01:05:05.020
Until you actually become Bin Laden's best man,
1997
01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:07.350
right hand man, or left hand man,
1998
01:05:07.350 --> 01:05:08.490
whatever you call it.
1999
01:05:08.490 --> 01:05:13.490
So, there was a period in 2003,
2000
01:05:13.660 --> 01:05:16.283
in I would say,
2001
01:05:18.210 --> 01:05:20.430
just when General Miller came in.
2002
01:05:20.430 --> 01:05:23.370
They had a video
2003
01:05:24.350 --> 01:05:27.990
and they had a photo of a video still photo.
2004
01:05:27.990 --> 01:05:30.980
And it was the pre-planning of 9/11
2005
01:05:30.980 --> 01:05:33.500
in Afghanistan in 2000, in a place
2006
01:05:33.500 --> 01:05:34.333
called Terp Farms,
2007
01:05:34.333 --> 01:05:36.110
the film's actually called, Terp Farms.
2008
01:05:36.110 --> 01:05:38.440
That's the term the Americans use.
2009
01:05:38.440 --> 01:05:41.830
The footage was actually shown on CNN recently,
2010
01:05:41.830 --> 01:05:43.520
about a year ago.
2011
01:05:43.520 --> 01:05:45.960
So, they had this film, and obviously,
2012
01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:47.560
it's a very bad quality film.
2013
01:05:47.560 --> 01:05:49.240
They had a still, and they showed me a photo
2014
01:05:49.240 --> 01:05:52.771
where Mohamed Atta in 2000, was sitting
2015
01:05:52.771 --> 01:05:54.040
in Bin Laden's office on a podium giving
2016
01:05:54.040 --> 01:05:56.050
his talk, whatever he was saying,
2017
01:05:56.050 --> 01:05:57.940
and you got people, loads of people were sitting
2018
01:05:57.940 --> 01:05:58.773
on the floor.
2019
01:05:59.870 --> 01:06:01.320
The Taliban's there and there's Arabs there,
2020
01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:02.330
there's all kind of people there,
2021
01:06:02.330 --> 01:06:04.230
black, white, you name it, all there.
2022
01:06:04.230 --> 01:06:05.787
And Mohamed Atta's sitting there,
2023
01:06:05.787 --> 01:06:07.550
and just behind on the photo,
2024
01:06:07.550 --> 01:06:09.350
there's like three guys.
2025
01:06:09.350 --> 01:06:13.970
And one guy was wearing his Adidas fleece top,
2026
01:06:13.970 --> 01:06:14.810
which was obviously fake.
2027
01:06:14.810 --> 01:06:16.640
You could tell from a mile away it was fake.
2028
01:06:16.640 --> 01:06:17.890
In my interrogation, they asked me,
2029
01:06:17.890 --> 01:06:19.830
in my suitcase, what did I pack?
2030
01:06:19.830 --> 01:06:22.250
I said, "I packed thermals,
2031
01:06:22.250 --> 01:06:24.997
I packed this and that, socks, blah, blah, blah."
2032
01:06:25.870 --> 01:06:27.830
I had tracksuit bottom, I had jeans,
2033
01:06:27.830 --> 01:06:29.950
and then when I said tracksuit bottoms,
2034
01:06:29.950 --> 01:06:31.350
they asked me, "What type?"
2035
01:06:31.350 --> 01:06:33.070
I said, "Adidas."
2036
01:06:33.070 --> 01:06:36.600
So, they pull this photo out, and they said,
2037
01:06:36.600 --> 01:06:38.690
because I said I was wearing Adidas,
2038
01:06:38.690 --> 01:06:40.180
they said that this person is me.
2039
01:06:40.180 --> 01:06:41.670
He didn't look nothing like me.
2040
01:06:41.670 --> 01:06:44.360
The guy had a massive beard, hee had long hair.
2041
01:06:44.360 --> 01:06:45.910
When I got to Pakistan in 2001,
2042
01:06:47.410 --> 01:06:48.480
I was clean shaven.
2043
01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:49.490
I didn't have a beard, I never had long hair
2044
01:06:49.490 --> 01:06:51.350
in my life, until after I came
2045
01:06:51.350 --> 01:06:52.430
off from Guantanamo.
2046
01:06:52.430 --> 01:06:53.960
So, they accused me of being that person
2047
01:06:53.960 --> 01:06:55.370
in that photo, they accused other two,
2048
01:06:55.370 --> 01:06:58.640
say next to the guy, to that particular guy,
2049
01:06:58.640 --> 01:07:00.270
to be Shafiq and Asif, (chuckles)
2050
01:07:00.270 --> 01:07:01.840
which didn't look nothing like us.
2051
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:05.970
Like even if he gave the photo to my daughter,
2052
01:07:05.970 --> 01:07:08.960
and she will tell you that it's not her dad.
2053
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:10.370
It was that blatant that you could see
2054
01:07:10.370 --> 01:07:12.270
that these people are not the three guys
2055
01:07:12.270 --> 01:07:13.480
who are in Guantanamo,
2056
01:07:13.480 --> 01:07:14.927
but they was like, adamant and they were saying,
2057
01:07:14.927 --> 01:07:16.158
"No, we know."
2058
01:07:16.158 --> 01:07:19.620
You had certain detainees in Guantanamo,
2059
01:07:19.620 --> 01:07:22.320
who kind of said, "Yeah, this guy was
2060
01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:26.130
in the Taliban training camp, (indistinct)."
2061
01:07:26.130 --> 01:07:29.343
Because a lot of people were stressed out,
2062
01:07:29.343 --> 01:07:31.130
or they thought if they grab some people
2063
01:07:31.130 --> 01:07:33.880
and make things up, they'll get better treatment,
2064
01:07:33.880 --> 01:07:34.730
do you know what I mean?
2065
01:07:34.730 --> 01:07:36.740
So, that was another part of the problem.
2066
01:07:36.740 --> 01:07:38.070
A lot of people were saying that we were there
2067
01:07:38.070 --> 01:07:40.500
because blah, blah, blah, X amount of reasons,
2068
01:07:40.500 --> 01:07:42.900
but obviously they we weren't there.
2069
01:07:42.900 --> 01:07:44.520
So, during that period,
2070
01:07:44.520 --> 01:07:46.247
that lasted for five months, four to five months
2071
01:07:46.247 --> 01:07:47.820
and we was isolated.
2072
01:07:47.820 --> 01:07:48.687
We were segregated from each other
2073
01:07:48.687 --> 01:07:51.101
and we was isolated for that period.
2074
01:07:51.101 --> 01:07:52.340
And how did
2075
01:07:52.340 --> 01:07:53.303
you manage, handle that?
2076
01:07:54.150 --> 01:07:55.952
Obviously, isolation was difficult,
2077
01:07:55.952 --> 01:07:56.785
it was extremely difficult
2078
01:07:56.785 --> 01:07:57.800
for the first two weeks.
2079
01:07:57.800 --> 01:08:00.140
I said, it's kind of, it's all right,
2080
01:08:00.140 --> 01:08:03.080
but after that it becomes a month, and then two,
2081
01:08:03.080 --> 01:08:03.913
and then three.
2082
01:08:03.913 --> 01:08:06.450
It kind of has an effect on you.
2083
01:08:06.450 --> 01:08:07.458
So, it gradually affects a person, seriously.
2084
01:08:07.458 --> 01:08:10.520
Did you know how long
2085
01:08:10.520 --> 01:08:12.730
you would be there, or was it an ending
2086
01:08:12.730 --> 01:08:13.817
so you didn't know when they-
2087
01:08:13.817 --> 01:08:16.547
No, we wasn't told how long we'd be there,
2088
01:08:16.547 --> 01:08:18.790
but it's difficult to cope with
2089
01:08:18.790 --> 01:08:20.791
because you can't see anybody.
2090
01:08:20.791 --> 01:08:21.624
You can't hear anybody,
2091
01:08:21.624 --> 01:08:23.383
and you can't speak to nobody,
2092
01:08:23.383 --> 01:08:26.563
and you're locked in a room on your own,
2093
01:08:26.563 --> 01:08:28.260
with your own thoughts, nothing to do,
2094
01:08:28.260 --> 01:08:29.460
nothing to watch.
2095
01:08:29.460 --> 01:08:30.911
Maybe if they gave me a TV,
2096
01:08:30.911 --> 01:08:32.250
I'll be flicking the TV all night long,
2097
01:08:32.250 --> 01:08:33.083
wat ching something.
2098
01:08:33.083 --> 01:08:34.850
At least it keeps the mind occupied.
2099
01:08:34.850 --> 01:08:35.720
When you got nothing except
2100
01:08:35.720 --> 01:08:38.170
for four walls, it's difficult.
2101
01:08:38.170 --> 01:08:39.880
Plus in the day it would be extremely hot
2102
01:08:39.880 --> 01:08:41.990
because the isolation blocks actually made
2103
01:08:41.990 --> 01:08:44.410
of four walls, and the floor and its roof
2104
01:08:44.410 --> 01:08:45.550
is actually made of mesh.
2105
01:08:45.550 --> 01:08:48.760
Not mesh, metal, like metal sheets.
2106
01:08:48.760 --> 01:08:53.010
So, they got AC built in, which obviously
2107
01:08:53.010 --> 01:08:54.820
they're supposed to put on in the daytime
2108
01:08:54.820 --> 01:08:58.009
so it keeps you cool, but they would turn it off.
2109
01:08:58.009 --> 01:08:59.810
And obviously, because of the heat,
2110
01:08:59.810 --> 01:09:01.745
it would get very humid, and it was very hot
2111
01:09:01.745 --> 01:09:02.700
and humid in Guantanamo.
2112
01:09:02.700 --> 01:09:03.533
So, obviously you can imagine,
2113
01:09:03.533 --> 01:09:04.690
like being in that box room,
2114
01:09:04.690 --> 01:09:05.823
it gets extremely hot.
2115
01:09:05.823 --> 01:09:07.420
And you start sweating, you can't...
2116
01:09:07.420 --> 01:09:09.360
I used to be literally naked in my room,
2117
01:09:09.360 --> 01:09:11.470
just like lay there and just put
2118
01:09:11.470 --> 01:09:13.167
a towel around me because it would be that hot
2119
01:09:13.167 --> 01:09:15.000
and you'd be sweating, dripping.
2120
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:16.650
You know how you go for a run? (chuckles)
2121
01:09:16.650 --> 01:09:19.020
Yeah, and you'd be dripping, and you'd have sweat
2122
01:09:19.020 --> 01:09:20.120
dripping down your nose.
2123
01:09:20.120 --> 01:09:22.460
That's how you actually be sweating in Guantan,
2124
01:09:22.460 --> 01:09:23.950
just sitting there.
2125
01:09:23.950 --> 01:09:26.220
So, obviously when you mean like
2126
01:09:26.220 --> 01:09:27.835
in that isolation room,
2127
01:09:27.835 --> 01:09:29.550
you're sweating even more.
2128
01:09:29.550 --> 01:09:31.280
So, it's very difficult to cope with,
2129
01:09:31.280 --> 01:09:35.750
breathings hard, water's hot, it's difficult.
2130
01:09:35.750 --> 01:09:36.810
And in the night what they do,
2131
01:09:36.810 --> 01:09:38.410
because obviously the metal, it gets cold,
2132
01:09:38.410 --> 01:09:39.755
it gets a bit chilly in the night.
2133
01:09:39.755 --> 01:09:42.570
They would turn on the AC.
2134
01:09:42.570 --> 01:09:45.550
So, they will take away all your comfort items.
2135
01:09:45.550 --> 01:09:47.870
So, you've got no insulation mat to sleep on
2136
01:09:47.870 --> 01:09:49.670
because the bunk is metal,
2137
01:09:49.670 --> 01:09:51.820
and the whole floor's metal, everything's metal.
2138
01:09:51.820 --> 01:09:54.850
So, you gotta sleep on a metal that is cold,
2139
01:09:54.850 --> 01:09:55.683
and they put the AC on.
2140
01:09:55.683 --> 01:09:56.990
So, it's even colder.
2141
01:09:56.990 --> 01:09:58.300
So, you can't sleep.
2142
01:09:58.300 --> 01:09:59.680
So, in the day you don't have heat,
2143
01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:01.560
at night, (chuckles) you have cold.
2144
01:10:01.560 --> 01:10:03.723
So, it was like two extreme conditions
2145
01:10:03.723 --> 01:10:04.840
they would put you in
2146
01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:06.057
because you're in isolation,
2147
01:10:06.057 --> 01:10:07.350
and the food would be limited,
2148
01:10:07.350 --> 01:10:08.183
and so on and so on.
2149
01:10:08.183 --> 01:10:09.016
And would you be interrogated
2150
01:10:09.016 --> 01:10:09.849
during those five minutes?
2151
01:10:09.849 --> 01:10:10.682
Yeah, they would take you out,
2152
01:10:10.682 --> 01:10:11.515
and we went into interrogation
2153
01:10:11.515 --> 01:10:12.650
like every day, without fail.
2154
01:10:12.650 --> 01:10:14.550
Sometimes, two days, three days.
2155
01:10:14.550 --> 01:10:15.383
You would not sometimes...
2156
01:10:15.383 --> 01:10:17.530
I think that's when the harsh treatment started,
2157
01:10:17.530 --> 01:10:20.200
like with the stressed positions, loud music,
2158
01:10:20.200 --> 01:10:23.290
strobe light, dogs, beatings
2159
01:10:23.290 --> 01:10:24.123
that was happening for-
2160
01:10:24.123 --> 01:10:25.070
Could you describe
2161
01:10:25.070 --> 01:10:26.942
some of that, kind of what that was like?
2162
01:10:26.942 --> 01:10:29.057
Well, stressed position
2163
01:10:29.057 --> 01:10:31.240
is like in your three piece suit,
2164
01:10:31.240 --> 01:10:33.354
they don't un-cuff your hands.
2165
01:10:33.354 --> 01:10:35.540
You get a separate pair of cuffs, handcuffs.
2166
01:10:35.540 --> 01:10:38.120
They would cuff your leg irons to a hook
2167
01:10:38.120 --> 01:10:39.560
on the floor with a padlock.
2168
01:10:39.560 --> 01:10:43.010
Make you crouch, force your arms underneath
2169
01:10:46.700 --> 01:10:48.790
your calves, your knees, basically.
2170
01:10:48.790 --> 01:10:50.950
So, basically, your legs are like this
2171
01:10:50.950 --> 01:10:52.380
and you're literally tip toeing.
2172
01:10:52.380 --> 01:10:55.020
So, your hands and your feet are together
2173
01:10:55.020 --> 01:10:58.950
and obviously, that's there and you can't
2174
01:10:58.950 --> 01:11:01.230
actually put your feet flat
2175
01:11:01.230 --> 01:11:02.373
because the amount of...
2176
01:11:02.373 --> 01:11:05.670
There's not enough slack in the chains
2177
01:11:05.670 --> 01:11:07.858
and they would cuff with another set of cuffs,
2178
01:11:07.858 --> 01:11:09.820
cuff that into the hook.
2179
01:11:09.820 --> 01:11:11.620
They'd hook it in so you were in that position,
2180
01:11:11.620 --> 01:11:12.877
that's called the stress position.
2181
01:11:12.877 --> 01:11:15.000
And sometimes they would leave you there
2182
01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:16.970
two and a half days, probably three days.
2183
01:11:16.970 --> 01:11:18.290
For what purpose?
2184
01:11:18.290 --> 01:11:20.240
Because there was that thought obviously
2185
01:11:20.240 --> 01:11:21.820
that was bought out, and they wanted us
2186
01:11:21.820 --> 01:11:24.110
to admit to it and say that we was...
2187
01:11:24.110 --> 01:11:25.050
We knew about 9/11.
2188
01:11:25.050 --> 01:11:27.370
So, basically we was getting accused
2189
01:11:28.610 --> 01:11:30.270
of knowing of 9/11.
2190
01:11:30.270 --> 01:11:32.273
That was the allegation.
2191
01:11:33.770 --> 01:11:36.140
So, they wanted you to admit and give names,
2192
01:11:36.140 --> 01:11:38.171
how you planned it. (chuckles)
2193
01:11:38.171 --> 01:11:40.090
All this madness and it's something
2194
01:11:40.090 --> 01:11:42.250
that was beyond and over,
2195
01:11:42.250 --> 01:11:43.860
I think anybody in Guantanamo.
2196
01:11:43.860 --> 01:11:47.370
And they want you to admit to that,
2197
01:11:47.370 --> 01:11:49.397
and basically, you would be there
2198
01:11:49.397 --> 01:11:51.380
for sometimes 10 minutes,
2199
01:11:51.380 --> 01:11:54.510
sometimes half an hour, sometimes five hours.
2200
01:11:54.510 --> 01:11:56.953
It totally depends on who the interrogator was
2201
01:11:56.953 --> 01:11:58.460
because sometimes they would put you
2202
01:11:58.460 --> 01:11:59.293
in 10 minutes and they'd say,
2203
01:11:59.293 --> 01:12:00.360
"Okay, we have to go."
2204
01:12:00.360 --> 01:12:01.193
They'd let you go.
2205
01:12:01.193 --> 01:12:02.197
Sometimes they'd say, "Well, I have to go,
2206
01:12:02.197 --> 01:12:03.930
but I'm gonna leave you in that position
2207
01:12:03.930 --> 01:12:06.380
for X amount of days, and it's-
2208
01:12:06.380 --> 01:12:07.213
Could you describe
2209
01:12:07.213 --> 01:12:09.560
any other abusive behavior there?
2210
01:12:09.560 --> 01:12:11.780
Well, at the same time they'd have
2211
01:12:11.780 --> 01:12:13.870
the loud music, which was...
2212
01:12:13.870 --> 01:12:15.810
I mean, the rooms are very small,
2213
01:12:15.810 --> 01:12:19.485
and the loud music would be extremely loud.
2214
01:12:19.485 --> 01:12:21.690
Sometimes when you're in pain,
2215
01:12:21.690 --> 01:12:23.450
if you actually take your mind off the pain,
2216
01:12:23.450 --> 01:12:24.790
it kind of eases the pain,
2217
01:12:24.790 --> 01:12:26.850
but when you have extremely loud music
2218
01:12:26.850 --> 01:12:31.139
in your face, so loud that you can't even think.
2219
01:12:31.139 --> 01:12:33.530
Have you ever been to a club and you're there
2220
01:12:33.530 --> 01:12:34.862
for too long, and you think,
2221
01:12:34.862 --> 01:12:35.782
damn I need to get out of here.
2222
01:12:35.782 --> 01:12:36.803
It's kind of doing my head in,
2223
01:12:36.803 --> 01:12:40.420
and that's the situation you are put in,
2224
01:12:40.420 --> 01:12:44.180
cause for the first maybe four, or five hours
2225
01:12:44.180 --> 01:12:46.200
it's just music.
2226
01:12:46.200 --> 01:12:48.250
But later on, the music turns into
2227
01:12:48.250 --> 01:12:49.290
a screaming noise,
2228
01:12:49.290 --> 01:12:52.130
banging and just scratching noises,
2229
01:12:52.130 --> 01:12:55.230
and all you can hear is instruments,
2230
01:12:55.230 --> 01:12:57.170
individual instruments banging away.
2231
01:12:57.170 --> 01:12:58.990
And eventually it doesn't become music anymore,
2232
01:12:58.990 --> 01:13:02.060
it just becomes horrendously annoying
2233
01:13:02.060 --> 01:13:03.381
and frustrating.
Do you know
2234
01:13:03.381 --> 01:13:04.214
what kind of music it was?
2235
01:13:04.214 --> 01:13:06.360
First it was Eminem, they played Eminem to us
2236
01:13:06.360 --> 01:13:08.000
on the first instance, and then obviously,
2237
01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:09.633
they realized it wasn't working. (chuckles)
2238
01:13:09.633 --> 01:13:11.630
So, but obviously, I never knew what the purpose
2239
01:13:11.630 --> 01:13:12.797
of music was at the time.
2240
01:13:12.797 --> 01:13:14.110
I kind of find it very odd.
2241
01:13:14.110 --> 01:13:17.460
I find it very odd when they first played it.
2242
01:13:17.460 --> 01:13:20.910
And I thought, why are they putting music on?
2243
01:13:20.910 --> 01:13:22.680
Especially they put Eminem.
2244
01:13:22.680 --> 01:13:24.230
I thought it was an error,
2245
01:13:24.230 --> 01:13:25.656
and it was probably for the soldiers.
2246
01:13:25.656 --> 01:13:26.700
You know, they've got...
2247
01:13:26.700 --> 01:13:27.533
They listen to it in their spare time
2248
01:13:27.533 --> 01:13:29.740
and they just pressed it by mistake,
2249
01:13:29.740 --> 01:13:31.130
and they've gone.
2250
01:13:31.130 --> 01:13:33.950
But the next time I went in, they actually changed
2251
01:13:33.950 --> 01:13:35.703
it to heavy metal, rock music,
2252
01:13:36.580 --> 01:13:38.160
which is obviously much worse.
2253
01:13:38.160 --> 01:13:40.590
I never classed rock music anyway,
2254
01:13:40.590 --> 01:13:41.423
it's not music to me.
2255
01:13:41.423 --> 01:13:44.578
It might be music to some wackos,
2256
01:13:44.578 --> 01:13:48.491
(chuckles) you can call them,
2257
01:13:48.491 --> 01:13:52.530
but it was like when you haven't got
2258
01:13:52.530 --> 01:13:54.990
that kind of taste in the music anyway,
2259
01:13:54.990 --> 01:13:57.460
it's annoying to hear.
2260
01:13:57.460 --> 01:14:00.050
But after six hours, or seven hours in a day,
2261
01:14:00.050 --> 01:14:03.060
it becomes extremely painful to your head,
2262
01:14:03.060 --> 01:14:05.580
and you feel like your head's gonna explode.
2263
01:14:05.580 --> 01:14:07.840
You start seeing things,
2264
01:14:07.840 --> 01:14:08.673
you start hallucinating things,
2265
01:14:08.673 --> 01:14:09.990
you start hallucinating.
2266
01:14:09.990 --> 01:14:13.360
The pain becomes unbearable, and I think
2267
01:14:13.360 --> 01:14:14.703
the psychological part of it is much worse
2268
01:14:14.703 --> 01:14:17.300
than the physical, because physical
2269
01:14:17.300 --> 01:14:19.120
you can always recover from physical pain.
2270
01:14:19.120 --> 01:14:21.350
Bruise, broken arm, you would always heal
2271
01:14:21.350 --> 01:14:22.974
no matter what, but when you
2272
01:14:22.974 --> 01:14:24.040
are scared psychologically,
2273
01:14:24.040 --> 01:14:26.440
once you've gone crazy, it's very rare
2274
01:14:26.440 --> 01:14:28.410
someone who goes mad that comes
2275
01:14:28.410 --> 01:14:29.760
back to normality.
2276
01:14:29.760 --> 01:14:31.640
It's literally, it's a miracle.
2277
01:14:31.640 --> 01:14:33.470
If it happens, it's a miracle.
2278
01:14:33.470 --> 01:14:35.660
I've got a friend, I've got a relative
2279
01:14:35.660 --> 01:14:38.130
who was fine until the age of 20.
2280
01:14:38.130 --> 01:14:39.480
And all of a sudden he went mad
2281
01:14:39.480 --> 01:14:42.920
because of drugs and loud music,
2282
01:14:42.920 --> 01:14:43.920
and to this day,
2283
01:14:43.920 --> 01:14:47.300
he's like 30 odd now, he's not there.
2284
01:14:47.300 --> 01:14:49.541
And that's what it does to you.
2285
01:14:49.541 --> 01:14:52.410
Once the mind is pushed past its limit,
2286
01:14:52.410 --> 01:14:53.280
you can't come back.
2287
01:14:53.280 --> 01:14:54.960
There's no jumping over that hurdle
2288
01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:56.912
and coming back to normality, but obviously
2289
01:14:56.912 --> 01:14:58.330
if you have a broken arm,
2290
01:14:58.330 --> 01:14:59.690
broken eye socket, broken nose,
2291
01:14:59.690 --> 01:15:01.630
it's always going to heal over time.
2292
01:15:01.630 --> 01:15:04.870
And maybe you'll never realize
2293
01:15:04.870 --> 01:15:06.310
that you almost broke it.
2294
01:15:06.310 --> 01:15:07.143
Do you know what I mean?
2295
01:15:07.143 --> 01:15:08.920
But once you've gone loopy
2296
01:15:08.920 --> 01:15:10.363
in the head, that's it,
2297
01:15:11.519 --> 01:15:14.730
and that's what their aim and goal were
2298
01:15:14.730 --> 01:15:18.040
because I think they got all the treatment
2299
01:15:18.040 --> 01:15:20.610
and techniques from the...
2300
01:15:21.740 --> 01:15:22.573
There was an experiment done
2301
01:15:22.573 --> 01:15:23.750
by an American professor.
2302
01:15:24.871 --> 01:15:25.704
Mm, right.
2303
01:15:25.704 --> 01:15:27.810
Right, and obviously, they got them using
2304
01:15:27.810 --> 01:15:29.633
that same tactics in Guantanamo.
2305
01:15:29.633 --> 01:15:32.010
They most were using it in (indistinct)
2306
01:15:32.010 --> 01:15:35.534
and they're using it in all around the world.
2307
01:15:35.534 --> 01:15:37.570
So, how long do you think
2308
01:15:37.570 --> 01:15:39.440
you heard music at any one time?
2309
01:15:39.440 --> 01:15:40.410
Was it...
2310
01:15:40.410 --> 01:15:42.010
I think it was about two and a half days
2311
01:15:42.010 --> 01:15:44.280
in that position for two and a half days.
2312
01:15:44.280 --> 01:15:45.170
And how do you cope?
2313
01:15:45.170 --> 01:15:46.318
How did you handle it?
2314
01:15:46.318 --> 01:15:47.151
Well, this is the thing,
2315
01:15:47.151 --> 01:15:48.109
a lot of people ask me this,
2316
01:15:48.109 --> 01:15:48.942
asked me this, how did we cope?
2317
01:15:48.942 --> 01:15:50.000
I think because I was young.
2318
01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:52.740
I was young, independent, not married,
2319
01:15:52.740 --> 01:15:55.200
no stress on my shoulders, no burden of family.
2320
01:15:55.200 --> 01:15:57.200
So, I was an individual on my own,
2321
01:15:57.200 --> 01:15:59.220
who aint give a shit about nobody.
2322
01:15:59.220 --> 01:16:00.243
Who aint need to stress about nobody
2323
01:16:00.243 --> 01:16:02.480
except for (chuckles) my own ass.
2324
01:16:02.480 --> 01:16:03.927
But for those people who were...
2325
01:16:03.927 --> 01:16:06.453
If you put yourself in the position,
2326
01:16:08.128 --> 01:16:11.663
you're old, you're more fragile, you can say.
2327
01:16:13.180 --> 01:16:16.820
Mentally probably when you reach a certain age,
2328
01:16:16.820 --> 01:16:19.680
you're more fragile physically, mentally.
2329
01:16:19.680 --> 01:16:21.520
You have family, you have a wife to worry about,
2330
01:16:21.520 --> 01:16:22.353
you have kids to worry about.
2331
01:16:22.353 --> 01:16:23.580
You have a mortgage to worry about.
2332
01:16:23.580 --> 01:16:25.630
You have all these other things to worry about.
2333
01:16:25.630 --> 01:16:27.540
Even though you're in prison you're gonna think,
2334
01:16:27.540 --> 01:16:28.790
how's my wife gonna cope?
2335
01:16:28.790 --> 01:16:30.950
Who's gonna pay my mortgage?
2336
01:16:30.950 --> 01:16:32.470
Is my wife coping okay?
2337
01:16:32.470 --> 01:16:34.550
Who was gonna pay for my school,
2338
01:16:34.550 --> 01:16:36.120
children's school tuition
2339
01:16:36.120 --> 01:16:37.450
and all these other things
2340
01:16:37.450 --> 01:16:38.480
that you might think about,
2341
01:16:38.480 --> 01:16:39.899
but I don't think about it
2342
01:16:39.899 --> 01:16:41.090
cause I don't need to think about it.
2343
01:16:41.090 --> 01:16:42.720
So, I think because of that reason,
2344
01:16:42.720 --> 01:16:45.000
I coped easier, and plus, I had two friends
2345
01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:46.400
who were not only friends
2346
01:16:46.400 --> 01:16:48.670
from the age of 18 or 19.
2347
01:16:48.670 --> 01:16:50.940
These friends were from childhood.
2348
01:16:50.940 --> 01:16:53.340
We went to kindergarten together.
2349
01:16:53.340 --> 01:16:54.173
So, we've known each
2350
01:16:54.173 --> 01:16:55.290
other from nappies. (chuckles)
2351
01:16:55.290 --> 01:16:56.123
Do you know what I mean?
2352
01:16:56.123 --> 01:16:57.087
So, we've seen each other grow up
2353
01:16:57.087 --> 01:16:59.330
for so many years, like 20 years.
2354
01:16:59.330 --> 01:17:02.060
And eventually, when you grow up with somebody
2355
01:17:02.060 --> 01:17:04.330
who you've known for 20 years.
2356
01:17:04.330 --> 01:17:06.080
They don't be friends, they be like your brother,
2357
01:17:06.080 --> 01:17:10.861
or part of the family because when you fall out,
2358
01:17:10.861 --> 01:17:13.000
it's like you're falling out with your family.
2359
01:17:13.000 --> 01:17:16.088
You feel the pain like you're going through.
2360
01:17:16.088 --> 01:17:17.920
And that's how it is, that's how close we are,
2361
01:17:17.920 --> 01:17:19.030
we're like brothers.
2362
01:17:19.030 --> 01:17:21.840
So, I had that backing.
2363
01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:23.553
You can say that when I used to be stressed
2364
01:17:23.553 --> 01:17:25.177
and I used to come back from interrogation,
2365
01:17:25.177 --> 01:17:26.350
I could talk to them, I could relate to them.
2366
01:17:26.350 --> 01:17:29.290
And I think the best thing was just
2367
01:17:29.290 --> 01:17:30.123
the way we are.
2368
01:17:30.960 --> 01:17:32.200
We used to make...
2369
01:17:32.200 --> 01:17:35.282
When I used to be treated in a bad way,
2370
01:17:35.282 --> 01:17:37.834
I used to get beaten up, they used to laugh.
2371
01:17:37.834 --> 01:17:39.275
I would be getting earthed and them
2372
01:17:39.275 --> 01:17:41.388
in the next cell, and them laughing at me
2373
01:17:41.388 --> 01:17:42.680
cause I'm getting beaten up.
2374
01:17:42.680 --> 01:17:44.010
And I think that was something that we all did,
2375
01:17:44.010 --> 01:17:45.940
when Shafiq got beaten up, I used to laugh.
2376
01:17:45.940 --> 01:17:47.540
I used to find it hilarious.
2377
01:17:47.540 --> 01:17:48.980
When we, for example, when we first got arrested
2378
01:17:48.980 --> 01:17:50.920
by the Northern Alliance,
2379
01:17:50.920 --> 01:17:53.340
obviously Asif was separated from us,
2380
01:17:53.340 --> 01:17:55.890
and Shafiq and me was together.
2381
01:17:55.890 --> 01:17:59.790
And the guy had a baton, like a baseball bat.
2382
01:17:59.790 --> 01:18:01.670
It was about this long and this thick,
2383
01:18:01.670 --> 01:18:03.938
and he come and whacked Asif's head.
2384
01:18:03.938 --> 01:18:05.830
He literally smacked him off his head
2385
01:18:05.830 --> 01:18:08.810
and off his back, and I found it very funny
2386
01:18:08.810 --> 01:18:11.590
cause the expression of his face when he got hit,
2387
01:18:11.590 --> 01:18:12.880
and I couldn't stop laughing.
2388
01:18:12.880 --> 01:18:14.554
So, the guy came and beat me up
2389
01:18:14.554 --> 01:18:16.100
and then Shafiq was laughing at me.
2390
01:18:16.100 --> 01:18:18.650
So, I think it's something that we did.
2391
01:18:18.650 --> 01:18:21.330
I think it was like immature, and probably
2392
01:18:21.330 --> 01:18:23.620
still today, like I had an accident
2393
01:18:23.620 --> 01:18:24.650
a few days ago.
2394
01:18:24.650 --> 01:18:27.960
And the first thing, he came, just by...
2395
01:18:27.960 --> 01:18:31.200
Off by chance, he was riving past where I smashed
2396
01:18:31.200 --> 01:18:32.850
just locally and I crashed,
2397
01:18:32.850 --> 01:18:34.010
and he was coming from shopping.
2398
01:18:34.010 --> 01:18:35.610
I went to Asda to buy something,
2399
01:18:35.610 --> 01:18:36.940
and he was going to Asda,
2400
01:18:36.940 --> 01:18:37.773
but I ain't seen him there.
2401
01:18:37.773 --> 01:18:39.870
So, I crashed and he drove behind me
2402
01:18:39.870 --> 01:18:41.750
and he's seen me, seen my van.
2403
01:18:41.750 --> 01:18:42.730
So, he stopped and he said...
2404
01:18:42.730 --> 01:18:44.600
He looked at me and he laughed at me.
2405
01:18:44.600 --> 01:18:45.840
The first thing a person would do is say,
2406
01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:46.710
are you okay?
2407
01:18:46.710 --> 01:18:47.858
Do you know what I mean?
2408
01:18:47.858 --> 01:18:48.819
Are you hurt?
2409
01:18:48.819 --> 01:18:49.652
He came with a guy and he's like,
2410
01:18:49.652 --> 01:18:51.725
he took the piss out of me, basically,
2411
01:18:51.725 --> 01:18:52.815
and he was laughing his head off.
2412
01:18:52.815 --> 01:18:54.727
And it's something that we still do.
2413
01:18:54.727 --> 01:18:57.920
It's something that that helped us
2414
01:18:57.920 --> 01:18:59.450
to cope with many things.
2415
01:18:59.450 --> 01:19:00.550
So, I would go to...
2416
01:19:00.550 --> 01:19:03.270
I'll come back drained, physically tired,
2417
01:19:03.270 --> 01:19:05.607
mentally strained and I would come back
2418
01:19:05.607 --> 01:19:07.873
and they would say, "He got bummed, didn't he."
2419
01:19:07.873 --> 01:19:08.706
(interviewer chuckles)
2420
01:19:08.706 --> 01:19:09.539
(chuckles) Things like this,
2421
01:19:09.539 --> 01:19:10.973
and what it does actually,
2422
01:19:11.841 --> 01:19:14.750
it actually kind of forget what's happened
2423
01:19:14.750 --> 01:19:16.150
to you, and you find it funny.
2424
01:19:16.150 --> 01:19:17.590
You find what's happened to you
2425
01:19:17.590 --> 01:19:19.300
even though it's not funny in reality,
2426
01:19:19.300 --> 01:19:23.180
but you use that time and space
2427
01:19:23.180 --> 01:19:24.710
to make something very bad,
2428
01:19:24.710 --> 01:19:26.560
something very funny and very good,
2429
01:19:26.560 --> 01:19:28.330
and that's how we cope with it.
2430
01:19:28.330 --> 01:19:30.110
But many of the detainees, they didn't do that
2431
01:19:30.110 --> 01:19:32.976
because the fact, it was serious for them,
2432
01:19:32.976 --> 01:19:33.809
do you know what I mean?
2433
01:19:33.809 --> 01:19:35.967
Because they never knew anybody so close.
2434
01:19:35.967 --> 01:19:37.819
It was like, they only got to know the person
2435
01:19:37.819 --> 01:19:39.010
because they were in Guantanamo.
2436
01:19:39.010 --> 01:19:40.370
So no one would like...
2437
01:19:40.370 --> 01:19:42.568
I wouldn't say anything bad about it,
2438
01:19:42.568 --> 01:19:43.570
cause I don't know you.
2439
01:19:43.570 --> 01:19:45.350
If you fell over, I wouldn't laugh,
2440
01:19:45.350 --> 01:19:46.660
cause it's rude.
2441
01:19:46.660 --> 01:19:47.493
Do you know what I mean?
2442
01:19:47.493 --> 01:19:48.326
I would say, "Are you all right?"
2443
01:19:48.326 --> 01:19:49.780
I'd be like, concerned for you, I'm concerned.
2444
01:19:49.780 --> 01:19:52.463
V=But when you my friend, when you really,
2445
01:19:52.463 --> 01:19:53.296
really close and you fall off
2446
01:19:53.296 --> 01:19:54.950
and you break your leg, you just laugh.
2447
01:19:54.950 --> 01:19:56.160
Oh, that's funny, and that's somehow...
2448
01:19:56.160 --> 01:19:59.980
You yourself, you cut yourself,
2449
01:19:59.980 --> 01:20:01.056
you broke your leg, even though it's painful
2450
01:20:01.056 --> 01:20:03.460
because I'm laughing at you.
2451
01:20:03.460 --> 01:20:04.293
You find it funny. (chuckles)
2452
01:20:04.293 --> 01:20:05.997
And that's how humans are.
2453
01:20:05.997 --> 01:20:08.588
And we kind of used that to our advantage.
2454
01:20:08.588 --> 01:20:10.430
We used to always take the piss
2455
01:20:10.430 --> 01:20:15.190
when we had the cavity search, it was not nice,
2456
01:20:15.190 --> 01:20:16.470
it was the most horrible thing that could happen.
2457
01:20:16.470 --> 01:20:18.320
It was worse at the beatings, for sure,
2458
01:20:18.320 --> 01:20:19.153
because that's like...
2459
01:20:19.153 --> 01:20:22.732
(sighs) What I consider,
2460
01:20:22.732 --> 01:20:23.565
that's like going past the...
2461
01:20:23.565 --> 01:20:26.320
You're past the boundary, that's the limit.
2462
01:20:26.320 --> 01:20:27.780
Obviously at that time, it was like
2463
01:20:27.780 --> 01:20:29.940
very embarrassing, and very humiliating,
2464
01:20:29.940 --> 01:20:32.176
but later on, we just take the piss out
2465
01:20:32.176 --> 01:20:33.312
of each other.
2466
01:20:33.312 --> 01:20:35.007
Then we just say, "Oh, you got bummed over."
2467
01:20:35.007 --> 01:20:36.627
(chuckles) Do you know what I mean?
2468
01:20:36.627 --> 01:20:39.697
And we say things like, instead, you go,
2469
01:20:39.697 --> 01:20:41.360
"Yeah, you got two fingers, man."
2470
01:20:41.360 --> 01:20:42.310
Do you know what I mean?
2471
01:20:42.310 --> 01:20:43.143
Things like this and we used
2472
01:20:43.143 --> 01:20:45.350
to make something serious into very funny,
2473
01:20:45.350 --> 01:20:46.630
and that's how we coped.
2474
01:20:46.630 --> 01:20:47.463
Do you know what I mean?
2475
01:20:47.463 --> 01:20:49.150
We're immature, even though I'm 27,
2476
01:20:49.150 --> 01:20:50.220
we're still very immature.
2477
01:20:50.220 --> 01:20:52.801
And I think that's how we were all from day one.
2478
01:20:52.801 --> 01:20:54.230
When you go up with somebody,
2479
01:20:54.230 --> 01:20:55.439
no matter how old you are,
2480
01:20:55.439 --> 01:20:56.272
when you know that person
2481
01:20:56.272 --> 01:20:57.790
like so, so close, it's like your wife.
2482
01:20:57.790 --> 01:21:00.283
I've known her for 13 years now,
2483
01:21:01.220 --> 01:21:03.480
and everything that we do is like,
2484
01:21:03.480 --> 01:21:05.008
she might fall over, I might fall over.
2485
01:21:05.008 --> 01:21:08.740
Once I fell off from stairs, she laughed at me.
2486
01:21:08.740 --> 01:21:10.697
And usually someone would ask, oh you...
2487
01:21:10.697 --> 01:21:12.940
And very concerned, but first of all,
2488
01:21:12.940 --> 01:21:15.100
they laugh at you, then they show their concern,
2489
01:21:15.100 --> 01:21:16.930
and that's how it is with family.
2490
01:21:16.930 --> 01:21:18.800
And it's fairly normal, so
2491
01:21:18.800 --> 01:21:20.210
it's not like weird.
2492
01:21:20.210 --> 01:21:22.320
It's actually very normal.
2493
01:21:22.320 --> 01:21:23.153
Something happens with you
2494
01:21:23.153 --> 01:21:24.920
and your wife probably like, she laughs first,
2495
01:21:24.920 --> 01:21:26.460
and then she says, you all right though?
2496
01:21:26.460 --> 01:21:27.830
Do you know what I mean?
2497
01:21:27.830 --> 01:21:29.780
And that's how it is, and that's how we coped.
2498
01:21:29.780 --> 01:21:30.613
Were you aware
2499
01:21:30.613 --> 01:21:31.810
that that was a way
2500
01:21:31.810 --> 01:21:32.920
of coping when that happening?
2501
01:21:32.920 --> 01:21:33.753
Yeah, we kind of realized.
2502
01:21:33.753 --> 01:21:35.480
I mean, you kind of, you come out
2503
01:21:35.480 --> 01:21:37.227
and you're stressed out, and he takes the piss,
2504
01:21:37.227 --> 01:21:40.220
and you kind of forget that just literally,
2505
01:21:40.220 --> 01:21:43.890
five minutes ago you was in that place,
2506
01:21:43.890 --> 01:21:46.721
going through that shit, the harsh treatment
2507
01:21:46.721 --> 01:21:47.620
that you was going through.
2508
01:21:47.620 --> 01:21:49.193
Within five minutes, you kind of forget,
2509
01:21:49.193 --> 01:21:51.380
and you're back to normal,
2510
01:21:51.380 --> 01:21:53.010
but for other detainees, completely different.
2511
01:21:53.010 --> 01:21:55.080
As I say, you know people who were married
2512
01:21:55.080 --> 01:21:56.500
and people who were more older,
2513
01:21:56.500 --> 01:21:57.980
even maybe there was actually,
2514
01:21:57.980 --> 01:21:58.813
majority people who were old,
2515
01:21:58.813 --> 01:22:00.640
those were all married, they had families.
2516
01:22:00.640 --> 01:22:02.060
They would come back and they would
2517
01:22:02.060 --> 01:22:04.130
just not talk to you for days,
2518
01:22:04.130 --> 01:22:04.963
and they were just like,
2519
01:22:04.963 --> 01:22:06.320
look depressed, very depressed.
2520
01:22:06.320 --> 01:22:07.267
And they would just sleep all day,
2521
01:22:07.267 --> 01:22:08.243
and even if you tried to talk to them
2522
01:22:08.243 --> 01:22:11.230
they would say like, kind of leave me alone.
2523
01:22:11.230 --> 01:22:12.063
Do you know what I mean?
2524
01:22:12.063 --> 01:22:13.255
So, you don't know what to do
2525
01:22:13.255 --> 01:22:15.890
because you don't know that person personally,
2526
01:22:15.890 --> 01:22:18.540
you can't take the piss, you can't make a joke
2527
01:22:18.540 --> 01:22:20.080
about what just happened
2528
01:22:20.080 --> 01:22:21.517
because to them it's serious.
2529
01:22:21.517 --> 01:22:23.333
But for us, because we were so young,
2530
01:22:23.333 --> 01:22:24.530
I mean, I was probably one
2531
01:22:24.530 --> 01:22:25.363
of the youngest detainees there,
2532
01:22:25.363 --> 01:22:27.114
I mean, there's obviously younger than me.
2533
01:22:27.114 --> 01:22:28.560
There's like 13 year olds, but I think,
2534
01:22:28.560 --> 01:22:30.000
in the adults, I was the youngest.
2535
01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:31.080
I was 18.
2536
01:22:31.080 --> 01:22:32.860
I think no one I was 18 at the time.
2537
01:22:32.860 --> 01:22:36.300
There was all like 20, 21, and so-and-so.
2538
01:22:36.300 --> 01:22:39.027
So, I think that helped a lot.
2539
01:22:40.530 --> 01:22:44.330
And also I think, we obviously spoke English
2540
01:22:44.330 --> 01:22:47.200
and a lot of the detainees
2541
01:22:48.570 --> 01:22:50.050
couldn't accept the fact.
2542
01:22:50.050 --> 01:22:51.830
I think, one of the main thing is to cope
2543
01:22:51.830 --> 01:22:55.380
in situations like Guantanamo, or anywhere
2544
01:22:55.380 --> 01:22:58.260
if you're ever imprisoned for whatever reason.
2545
01:22:58.260 --> 01:23:02.450
I think, if you accept the fact that it's part
2546
01:23:02.450 --> 01:23:04.860
of your fate and it's meant to happen,
2547
01:23:04.860 --> 01:23:09.110
you can actually move on and live your life
2548
01:23:09.110 --> 01:23:10.660
in that situation.
2549
01:23:10.660 --> 01:23:12.380
But many detainees couldn't accept the fact
2550
01:23:12.380 --> 01:23:13.600
that it was happening to them.
2551
01:23:13.600 --> 01:23:15.970
They couldn't believe that they'd been arrested
2552
01:23:16.930 --> 01:23:20.100
and it's happening to them by the Americans.
2553
01:23:20.100 --> 01:23:20.933
they couldn't believe it.
2554
01:23:20.933 --> 01:23:22.870
It's like beyond their comprehension, they-
2555
01:23:22.870 --> 01:23:24.660
Why could you accept it?
2556
01:23:24.660 --> 01:23:25.690
Because that's the way I am.
2557
01:23:25.690 --> 01:23:26.523
I've always been like that.
2558
01:23:26.523 --> 01:23:28.943
I broke my arm, I've had a crash, it's fate.
2559
01:23:28.943 --> 01:23:30.646
It's meant to happen.
2560
01:23:30.646 --> 01:23:32.650
If I fall over and die today,
2561
01:23:32.650 --> 01:23:34.520
or something happens to my daughter.
2562
01:23:34.520 --> 01:23:35.353
Yeah, I'll be upset,
2563
01:23:35.353 --> 01:23:37.010
but I have to accept it's fate.
2564
01:23:37.010 --> 01:23:38.660
There's nothing I can do to prevent
2565
01:23:38.660 --> 01:23:40.080
it from happening.
2566
01:23:40.080 --> 01:23:40.913
I'm a Muslim.
2567
01:23:40.913 --> 01:23:42.760
I believe in my religion and I believe in fate.
2568
01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:43.950
I believe in destiny.
2569
01:23:43.950 --> 01:23:46.380
So, from what I've been taught,
2570
01:23:46.380 --> 01:23:50.560
I believe, God had written the time and day
2571
01:23:50.560 --> 01:23:51.690
for me to be born.
2572
01:23:51.690 --> 01:23:54.170
And he's also written my time of death to me
2573
01:23:54.170 --> 01:23:55.003
to depart from this world.
2574
01:23:55.003 --> 01:23:56.900
He's also written times, and dates,
2575
01:23:56.900 --> 01:23:58.320
and places where I wanna break my hand,
2576
01:23:58.320 --> 01:23:59.453
or break this, break that,
2577
01:23:59.453 --> 01:24:00.286
that's gonna happen to me,
2578
01:24:00.286 --> 01:24:02.400
I'm gonna have hardship in my life.
2579
01:24:02.400 --> 01:24:04.040
There's a verse in the Quran, for example,
2580
01:24:04.040 --> 01:24:06.460
when God says, "This life is a test for you
2581
01:24:07.480 --> 01:24:10.330
to see how faithful and how strong your belief
2582
01:24:10.330 --> 01:24:11.370
in Islam is.
2583
01:24:11.370 --> 01:24:13.650
So, for me, it was a test and a trial
2584
01:24:13.650 --> 01:24:16.350
and I accept it, but some people can't accept it.
2585
01:24:16.350 --> 01:24:19.860
And I think, when you are in denial of something
2586
01:24:19.860 --> 01:24:21.140
that's happening to you,
2587
01:24:21.140 --> 01:24:22.180
that's when it has an effect on
2588
01:24:22.180 --> 01:24:23.630
a person mentally.
2589
01:24:23.630 --> 01:24:25.710
When you actually accept it, okay,
2590
01:24:25.710 --> 01:24:27.490
it's happened to me, even though
2591
01:24:27.490 --> 01:24:28.710
it shouldn't happen to me, but you know what?
2592
01:24:28.710 --> 01:24:31.003
It's happened to me, fuck it.
2593
01:24:31.003 --> 01:24:32.420
That's how you look at it.
2594
01:24:32.420 --> 01:24:34.050
That's how I always tell people,
2595
01:24:34.050 --> 01:24:35.670
this is how you gotta look at it.
2596
01:24:35.670 --> 01:24:36.750
Do you know what I mean?
2597
01:24:36.750 --> 01:24:38.870
The more quicker you accept your fate
2598
01:24:38.870 --> 01:24:40.690
and what's happened to you, the more quicker
2599
01:24:40.690 --> 01:24:41.810
you can move on.
2600
01:24:41.810 --> 01:24:43.510
Rather than moaning and groaning,
2601
01:24:43.510 --> 01:24:45.020
oh, why is it happening to me, why?
2602
01:24:45.020 --> 01:24:46.270
You know, crying about it.
2603
01:24:46.270 --> 01:24:48.260
Then you feel depressed, you feel down,
2604
01:24:48.260 --> 01:24:50.120
and it has an effect on you mentally.
2605
01:24:50.120 --> 01:24:52.810
And I don't wanna be crazy like,
2606
01:24:52.810 --> 01:24:53.820
cause I was seeing people
2607
01:24:53.820 --> 01:24:55.060
who's committing suicide.
2608
01:24:55.060 --> 01:24:56.090
And I thought, I don't wanna put myself
2609
01:24:56.090 --> 01:24:57.140
in that position.
2610
01:24:57.140 --> 01:24:59.350
I don't wanna be one day taking my sheet,
2611
01:24:59.350 --> 01:25:00.213
ripping it, tying it, put it around
2612
01:25:00.213 --> 01:25:01.560
my neck and hanging.
2613
01:25:01.560 --> 01:25:02.910
No way. Do you know what I mean?
2614
01:25:02.910 --> 01:25:04.520
I don't wanna end my life, why should I?
2615
01:25:04.520 --> 01:25:06.440
Even if I have to live for the rest of my life
2616
01:25:06.440 --> 01:25:07.925
in prison, I'll live it,
2617
01:25:07.925 --> 01:25:09.290
but I'm not taking my own life,
2618
01:25:09.290 --> 01:25:11.150
because that's like you're giving up.
2619
01:25:11.150 --> 01:25:13.178
You gave up to the Americans
2620
01:25:13.178 --> 01:25:15.740
and therefore, you show them that they've won,
2621
01:25:15.740 --> 01:25:18.470
and something I don't wanna do is show them
2622
01:25:18.470 --> 01:25:20.150
that they was winning.
2623
01:25:20.150 --> 01:25:21.860
Even though I was a prisoner,
2624
01:25:21.860 --> 01:25:25.130
but I was a free man mentally, inside me,
2625
01:25:25.130 --> 01:25:26.470
spiritually, I was free.
2626
01:25:26.470 --> 01:25:27.770
And I mean, I would come to my cell
2627
01:25:27.770 --> 01:25:28.740
and we would laugh.
2628
01:25:28.740 --> 01:25:31.777
And the best thing about it was,
2629
01:25:31.777 --> 01:25:34.190
the soldiers could not comprehend,
2630
01:25:34.190 --> 01:25:36.730
or could not believe that we would come back
2631
01:25:36.730 --> 01:25:38.210
from such a bad treatment, and come back
2632
01:25:38.210 --> 01:25:39.043
to our cell and laugh.
2633
01:25:39.043 --> 01:25:40.100
They couldn't believe it.
2634
01:25:40.100 --> 01:25:42.770
They would say, "How do you do it?"
2635
01:25:42.770 --> 01:25:44.620
All your freedom has been taken away.
2636
01:25:45.610 --> 01:25:47.710
This is the worst place on earth,
2637
01:25:47.710 --> 01:25:49.300
how do you come back and smile?
2638
01:25:49.300 --> 01:25:50.800
How do you come back and pray?
2639
01:25:51.800 --> 01:25:55.780
And yet, the soldiers were having problems.
2640
01:25:55.780 --> 01:25:57.160
Some soldiers were taking their lives.
2641
01:25:57.160 --> 01:25:59.920
Some soldiers were finding it extremely hard
2642
01:25:59.920 --> 01:26:01.930
because they was in Guantanamo.
2643
01:26:01.930 --> 01:26:02.763
They would say to us, they would say,
2644
01:26:02.763 --> 01:26:04.360
you're in a the prison,
2645
01:26:04.360 --> 01:26:06.670
and we're in a bigger prison.
2646
01:26:06.670 --> 01:26:08.640
I mean, how ridiculous does that sound to me?
2647
01:26:08.640 --> 01:26:10.430
I would laugh. I would say, you joke?
2648
01:26:10.430 --> 01:26:11.510
I never told you to sign the piece
2649
01:26:11.510 --> 01:26:13.110
of pretty paper and come to the army.
2650
01:26:13.110 --> 01:26:14.820
It is out of your own will
2651
01:26:14.820 --> 01:26:16.700
you've joined the military.
2652
01:26:16.700 --> 01:26:17.670
Yeah, okay, it might not be your will
2653
01:26:17.670 --> 01:26:19.160
that you've been sent to Guantanamo,
2654
01:26:19.160 --> 01:26:20.800
but initially when you sign that paper
2655
01:26:20.800 --> 01:26:21.960
it means in the time of war,
2656
01:26:21.960 --> 01:26:23.810
they can send you wherever they want,
2657
01:26:23.810 --> 01:26:24.643
they can do.
2658
01:26:24.643 --> 01:26:27.653
So, you signed up knowingly that it can happen.
2659
01:26:28.680 --> 01:26:30.510
So, now you're crying, and some of them,
2660
01:26:30.510 --> 01:26:32.270
they would have this...
2661
01:26:32.270 --> 01:26:34.470
For the military, they had this thing
2662
01:26:34.470 --> 01:26:38.630
called combat stress team, which is like,
2663
01:26:38.630 --> 01:26:40.970
the soldiers would actually go every week
2664
01:26:40.970 --> 01:26:42.860
to this psych dude,
2665
01:26:42.860 --> 01:26:44.580
and they would talk about their problems.
2666
01:26:44.580 --> 01:26:45.413
Really? How do you know that?
2667
01:26:45.413 --> 01:26:47.733
Because they would say to us, they got...
2668
01:26:47.733 --> 01:26:50.980
We've got this scheme put in place
2669
01:26:50.980 --> 01:26:53.940
so our soldiers don't feel the pressure.
2670
01:26:53.940 --> 01:26:55.317
What pressure?
2671
01:26:55.317 --> 01:26:57.910
For me it's a joke, I mean, it's so ridiculous.
2672
01:26:57.910 --> 01:26:59.005
And some of them actually went, I mean,
2673
01:26:59.005 --> 01:27:01.090
one guy shot himself.
2674
01:27:01.090 --> 01:27:02.261
One American guy shot himself.
2675
01:27:02.261 --> 01:27:03.301
I think he was-
2676
01:27:03.301 --> 01:27:04.134
One guard shot himself?
2677
01:27:04.134 --> 01:27:04.967
Yeah, I don't think he shot himself
2678
01:27:04.967 --> 01:27:05.800
because he was stressed.
2679
01:27:05.800 --> 01:27:07.880
He got a Dear John letter.
2680
01:27:07.880 --> 01:27:08.713
He got a what?
2681
01:27:08.713 --> 01:27:09.956
A Dear John letter.
2682
01:27:09.956 --> 01:27:11.280
A Dear John letter?
2683
01:27:11.280 --> 01:27:13.450
Yeah, basically his wife was having an affair
2684
01:27:13.450 --> 01:27:17.603
and he was a marine, I think, and he shot himself
2685
01:27:17.603 --> 01:27:19.444
in his mouth, and he killed himself.
2686
01:27:19.444 --> 01:27:20.277
He killed himself?
2687
01:27:20.277 --> 01:27:21.110
He killed himself in Guantanamo.
2688
01:27:21.110 --> 01:27:21.943
How do you know this?
2689
01:27:21.943 --> 01:27:23.170
Because the soldiers would come and tell us,
2690
01:27:23.170 --> 01:27:24.003
they would say...
2691
01:27:24.003 --> 01:27:28.210
So, there was one soldier, who apparently got...
2692
01:27:28.210 --> 01:27:30.470
He was so stressed apparently, he just drowned.
2693
01:27:30.470 --> 01:27:31.770
He swam and swam, and swam,
2694
01:27:31.770 --> 01:27:33.410
and he took his own life, he just drowned.
2695
01:27:33.410 --> 01:27:34.690
They couldn't find his body.
2696
01:27:34.690 --> 01:27:37.390
There's two soldiers I know of who...
2697
01:27:37.390 --> 01:27:38.223
Who killed themselves?
2698
01:27:38.223 --> 01:27:39.210
Who killed themselves, that according
2699
01:27:39.210 --> 01:27:41.003
to the soldiers, the information we got,
2700
01:27:41.003 --> 01:27:42.680
we don't know if it's true,
2701
01:27:42.680 --> 01:27:44.820
if it's a fact or nothing, but even if it was,
2702
01:27:44.820 --> 01:27:45.653
would they make...
2703
01:27:45.653 --> 01:27:47.310
The army would tell you this to the public,
2704
01:27:47.310 --> 01:27:48.501
they wouldn't tell you that.
2705
01:27:48.501 --> 01:27:49.334
Right.
2706
01:27:49.334 --> 01:27:50.167
They wouldn't tell you, but some
2707
01:27:50.167 --> 01:27:51.350
of the soldiers would say "This has happened."
2708
01:27:51.350 --> 01:27:52.960
And we could see the stress.
2709
01:27:52.960 --> 01:27:54.430
Some of the soldiers would go...
2710
01:27:54.430 --> 01:27:56.507
There was one soldier we made him cry.
2711
01:27:56.507 --> 01:27:58.290
He was a Chinese guy.
2712
01:27:58.290 --> 01:27:59.406
We made him cry.
2713
01:27:59.406 --> 01:28:00.930
How?
2714
01:28:00.930 --> 01:28:02.673
What it was, one of the...
2715
01:28:04.821 --> 01:28:05.736
Do we just like...
2716
01:28:05.736 --> 01:28:06.569
Just take a break.
2717
01:28:06.569 --> 01:28:07.402
No, just I wanted-
Oh.
2718
01:28:07.402 --> 01:28:08.235
Because she's making...
2719
01:28:08.235 --> 01:28:09.135
Someone's making a noise.
Okay.
2720
01:28:09.135 --> 01:28:10.290
I just wanna (indistinct) interview.
2721
01:28:10.290 --> 01:28:11.123
Okay, okay.
2722
01:28:11.123 --> 01:28:11.956
Let me just see who it is.
2723
01:28:11.956 --> 01:28:12.943
Shay, is that you?
2724
01:28:12.943 --> 01:28:13.776
Yeah.
2725
01:28:13.776 --> 01:28:15.045
Oh, okay.
2726
01:28:15.045 --> 01:28:17.628
Let me just close the door, so.
2727
01:28:19.407 --> 01:28:20.603
So, how you made someone cry.
2728
01:28:20.603 --> 01:28:22.150
What it was, there was this guy
2729
01:28:22.150 --> 01:28:25.803
who had just been recently released in Qatar.
2730
01:28:27.190 --> 01:28:28.023
Qatar?
2731
01:28:28.023 --> 01:28:29.360
Yeah, Kandahar,
2732
01:28:29.360 --> 01:28:30.230
he hasn't been released.
2733
01:28:30.230 --> 01:28:31.713
No, no, no, in Qatar.
2734
01:28:31.713 --> 01:28:32.546
Qatar.
2735
01:28:32.546 --> 01:28:33.379
Oh, in Qatar.
Qatar, yeah.
2736
01:28:33.379 --> 01:28:34.212
Uh-huh.
2737
01:28:34.212 --> 01:28:35.770
He came to the UK in about...
2738
01:28:35.770 --> 01:28:37.163
His name is Jarula.
2739
01:28:37.163 --> 01:28:37.996
I dunno if you've interviewed him.
2740
01:28:37.996 --> 01:28:39.120
Maybe you probably will interview him.
2741
01:28:39.120 --> 01:28:41.639
He's got a severe case of...
2742
01:28:41.639 --> 01:28:43.010
You know when you get white patches on your skin?
2743
01:28:43.010 --> 01:28:43.843
When your pigment dies.
2744
01:28:43.843 --> 01:28:44.676
Right.
2745
01:28:44.676 --> 01:28:45.509
He's got that all over his face.
2746
01:28:45.509 --> 01:28:46.910
He's just been recently released.
2747
01:28:46.910 --> 01:28:48.740
He came to the UK about six months ago
2748
01:28:48.740 --> 01:28:49.940
to a (indistinct) event.
2749
01:28:50.788 --> 01:28:52.371
His name is Jarula.
2750
01:28:53.233 --> 01:28:54.290
He was next to my...
2751
01:28:54.290 --> 01:28:55.520
A few doors away from next to me,
2752
01:28:55.520 --> 01:28:57.300
and he got in trouble.
2753
01:28:57.300 --> 01:28:58.300
And when you get in trouble,
2754
01:28:58.300 --> 01:29:00.920
you have to give all your comfort items away.
2755
01:29:00.920 --> 01:29:02.837
So, what he did, he got peed off,
2756
01:29:02.837 --> 01:29:05.290
and we had toilets that were actually built
2757
01:29:05.290 --> 01:29:06.450
within the cell.
2758
01:29:06.450 --> 01:29:09.605
And them like latrines, you know like
2759
01:29:09.605 --> 01:29:11.910
the ones you have in
2760
01:29:11.910 --> 01:29:14.960
the Europe, Eastern countries, like Far East,
2761
01:29:14.960 --> 01:29:16.140
Pakistan, Bangladesh and stuff.
2762
01:29:16.140 --> 01:29:18.707
You sit down, you squat and he's old.
2763
01:29:19.691 --> 01:29:21.940
And what he did, he start flushing his blanket,
2764
01:29:21.940 --> 01:29:25.080
his towel, his sheet, his cups, his toothpaste.
2765
01:29:25.080 --> 01:29:26.124
He thought...
2766
01:29:26.124 --> 01:29:27.360
Cause what he does, he clogs it up.
2767
01:29:27.360 --> 01:29:28.193
And he's flushing it,
2768
01:29:28.193 --> 01:29:30.730
and they came and earthed him, took him out,
2769
01:29:30.730 --> 01:29:31.980
and one Chinese guy,
2770
01:29:31.980 --> 01:29:34.640
he got a black bag basically, a bin bag.
2771
01:29:34.640 --> 01:29:35.473
Put it on his arm and put his hand
2772
01:29:35.473 --> 01:29:37.380
down the toilet and pull everything out,
2773
01:29:37.380 --> 01:29:38.380
one by one.
2774
01:29:38.380 --> 01:29:40.861
So, what they did, everybody
2775
01:29:40.861 --> 01:29:41.694
who's seen that, they called...
2776
01:29:41.694 --> 01:29:43.220
They nicknamed him plunger.
2777
01:29:43.220 --> 01:29:44.053
(interviewer laughs)
2778
01:29:44.053 --> 01:29:45.890
(chuckles) So, they nicknamed him plunger.
2779
01:29:45.890 --> 01:29:47.370
So, every time he would come on the cell,
2780
01:29:47.370 --> 01:29:49.930
or block, and he was a very...
2781
01:29:49.930 --> 01:29:51.611
No one liked him, he was like arrogant,
2782
01:29:51.611 --> 01:29:52.617
he was like...
2783
01:29:52.617 --> 01:29:55.390
He was not one of the good soldiers, basically
2784
01:29:55.390 --> 01:29:56.223
and they would call him plunger.
2785
01:29:56.223 --> 01:29:57.657
So, every time we called him,
2786
01:29:57.657 --> 01:29:59.360
"Plunger, I need a cup."
2787
01:29:59.360 --> 01:30:02.100
And one day, he tried to cause trouble,
2788
01:30:02.100 --> 01:30:07.100
like some guys, soldiers would cause trouble
2789
01:30:07.530 --> 01:30:09.539
on purpose, do you know what I mean?
2790
01:30:09.539 --> 01:30:10.677
So, he was one of them who would cause trouble.
2791
01:30:10.677 --> 01:30:12.687
So, we start, everyone started chanting,
2792
01:30:12.687 --> 01:30:17.010
"Plunger, plunger," for about six hours, man.
2793
01:30:17.010 --> 01:30:18.100
Every time he walked passed,
2794
01:30:18.100 --> 01:30:19.263
plunger, plunger, plunger.
2795
01:30:19.263 --> 01:30:21.790
And then eventually, when he came to dinner time,
2796
01:30:21.790 --> 01:30:24.160
he gave out dinner that, and while
2797
01:30:24.160 --> 01:30:27.313
he was collecting the trash, every...
2798
01:30:27.313 --> 01:30:28.550
Because obviously, you're finished,
2799
01:30:28.550 --> 01:30:30.289
when we finished our dinner,
2800
01:30:30.289 --> 01:30:33.050
people used to sing songs and it's like time
2801
01:30:33.050 --> 01:30:34.450
to chill out for the detainees.
2802
01:30:34.450 --> 01:30:36.050
Talk and blah, bah, blah, relax,
2803
01:30:36.050 --> 01:30:37.740
cause it's just before we got to bed.
2804
01:30:37.740 --> 01:30:39.363
So, we will started saying, "Plunger,"
2805
01:30:39.363 --> 01:30:40.560
for about 15, 20 minutes,
2806
01:30:40.560 --> 01:30:41.920
while he was collecting the trash.
2807
01:30:41.920 --> 01:30:44.070
We kept on saying it, and we was chanting,
2808
01:30:44.070 --> 01:30:46.210
and then the whole camp started
2809
01:30:46.210 --> 01:30:47.640
chanting this plunger.
2810
01:30:47.640 --> 01:30:49.290
And it's like from block to block,
2811
01:30:49.290 --> 01:30:52.210
and you could hear it throughout the actual camp.
2812
01:30:52.210 --> 01:30:55.786
Plunger, like you could hear it on the other side
2813
01:30:55.786 --> 01:30:56.619
where the other camps were,
2814
01:30:56.619 --> 01:30:57.560
even they were saying it.
2815
01:30:57.560 --> 01:31:00.129
And basically, we used to shout across
2816
01:31:00.129 --> 01:31:02.323
and say, this one soldier, who's an asshole,
2817
01:31:02.323 --> 01:31:03.156
we're trying to piss him off.
2818
01:31:03.156 --> 01:31:04.270
So, the whole camp was then employed.
2819
01:31:04.270 --> 01:31:06.560
Eventually, he's walking, he's got the black bag.
2820
01:31:06.560 --> 01:31:09.350
He threw the black bag, just threw it
2821
01:31:09.350 --> 01:31:12.260
in the air and stamped his feet like he's a baby.
2822
01:31:12.260 --> 01:31:14.616
He goes, "I've had enough.
2823
01:31:14.616 --> 01:31:16.220
I can't hack this," and he ran off.
2824
01:31:16.220 --> 01:31:20.138
He ran off the block, and he went home.
2825
01:31:20.138 --> 01:31:20.971
He just-
2826
01:31:20.971 --> 01:31:21.804
And you never saw him again?
2827
01:31:21.804 --> 01:31:24.130
We seen him again later, about six weeks later.
2828
01:31:24.130 --> 01:31:25.610
And he started, he cried, he was crying.
2829
01:31:25.610 --> 01:31:28.440
We got him so annoyed, he got so frustrated,
2830
01:31:28.440 --> 01:31:29.273
and he started crying.
2831
01:31:29.273 --> 01:31:31.730
I was like, and even the other soldiers
2832
01:31:31.730 --> 01:31:34.100
couldn't believe it, that we actually managed
2833
01:31:34.100 --> 01:31:37.103
to put so much pressure and stress on him
2834
01:31:37.103 --> 01:31:38.790
that we actually made him cry.
2835
01:31:38.790 --> 01:31:39.623
They couldn't believe it.
2836
01:31:39.623 --> 01:31:40.647
Do you know when that was?
2837
01:31:40.647 --> 01:31:43.150
That was like in 2003, plunger.
2838
01:31:43.150 --> 01:31:45.040
He was like a Chinese, he looked Chinese,
2839
01:31:45.040 --> 01:31:48.410
or he was like Cantonese, or something like that.
2840
01:31:48.410 --> 01:31:51.625
He was a chubby dude, no one liked him, plunger.
2841
01:31:51.625 --> 01:31:53.970
I think it was in the Pepsi patch,
2842
01:31:53.970 --> 01:31:56.650
they had patches, like with the military,
2843
01:31:56.650 --> 01:31:57.913
they have different part...
2844
01:31:57.913 --> 01:31:59.987
As they stay, they have a different patch,
2845
01:31:59.987 --> 01:32:01.790
and one is a Pepsi patch.
2846
01:32:01.790 --> 01:32:04.030
It's the Pepsi symbol.
2847
01:32:04.030 --> 01:32:04.950
Really?
2848
01:32:04.950 --> 01:32:05.783
So, we used to call it the Pepsi patch.
2849
01:32:05.783 --> 01:32:07.510
Then you have one with a cross.
2850
01:32:07.510 --> 01:32:11.380
Then you have nine, nine, four,
2851
01:32:11.380 --> 01:32:13.980
I think they were from New York.
2852
01:32:13.980 --> 01:32:15.300
Then you have Michigan.
2853
01:32:15.300 --> 01:32:17.590
They had all different like, they had palm tree,
2854
01:32:17.590 --> 01:32:18.423
and they have different patches.
2855
01:32:18.423 --> 01:32:20.350
So, we used to identify them by the patches.
2856
01:32:20.350 --> 01:32:22.670
So, the nine, four, and the Pepsi patch
2857
01:32:22.670 --> 01:32:24.860
were the worst patch that we had.
2858
01:32:24.860 --> 01:32:28.000
Then you had the Puerto Ricans were also there.
2859
01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:29.870
So, was it easy to communicate
2860
01:32:29.870 --> 01:32:31.850
with all the others that you were able to do?
2861
01:32:31.850 --> 01:32:33.540
Initially, it was quite difficult for me
2862
01:32:33.540 --> 01:32:34.800
because I couldn't speak Arabic.
2863
01:32:34.800 --> 01:32:36.550
So, I found it very difficult.
2864
01:32:36.550 --> 01:32:37.860
So, obviously I had to start learning
2865
01:32:37.860 --> 01:32:39.880
to speak Arabic, which I did over the two years.
2866
01:32:39.880 --> 01:32:42.670
I started learning, and eventually my Arabic
2867
01:32:42.670 --> 01:32:43.570
became very good.
2868
01:32:43.570 --> 01:32:45.030
So, I used to be a translator.
2869
01:32:45.030 --> 01:32:47.730
So, I translate for detainees to the soldiers
2870
01:32:47.730 --> 01:32:49.230
if there was any problems, so-
2871
01:32:49.230 --> 01:32:50.350
The soldiers would ask you
2872
01:32:50.350 --> 01:32:51.183
to translate for them?
2873
01:32:51.183 --> 01:32:52.120
Yeah, they had translators,
2874
01:32:52.120 --> 01:32:54.840
but it was more of a headache waiting
2875
01:32:54.840 --> 01:32:55.930
for the translators because they take...
2876
01:32:55.930 --> 01:32:57.740
Can take up to an hour to come sometimes.
2877
01:32:57.740 --> 01:32:59.500
So, if the guy's got serious pains in his stomach
2878
01:32:59.500 --> 01:33:00.630
and he's trying to explain,
2879
01:33:00.630 --> 01:33:02.100
it's better rather than waiting
2880
01:33:02.100 --> 01:33:03.970
for the translator for an hour,
2881
01:33:03.970 --> 01:33:05.370
so I translated it.
2882
01:33:05.370 --> 01:33:08.970
So, we learnt Arabic,
2883
01:33:08.970 --> 01:33:10.320
everybody learnt Arabic, actually,
2884
01:33:10.320 --> 01:33:12.290
even the Pakistani's and Afghani's.
2885
01:33:12.290 --> 01:33:13.600
Anybody who was non Arab,
2886
01:33:13.600 --> 01:33:15.310
they learned Arabic to communicate.
2887
01:33:15.310 --> 01:33:17.180
And which was quite weird because even though
2888
01:33:17.180 --> 01:33:19.470
I speak Urdu, Urdu's not the main language
2889
01:33:19.470 --> 01:33:21.580
I learnt as I was growing up.
2890
01:33:21.580 --> 01:33:23.040
It was not to do with any
2891
01:33:23.040 --> 01:33:24.373
of my culture within that.
2892
01:33:25.571 --> 01:33:27.300
The Pakistanis who were there, who was detained,
2893
01:33:27.300 --> 01:33:28.720
I could communicate with Urdu,
2894
01:33:28.720 --> 01:33:29.553
but which was weird because everybody
2895
01:33:29.553 --> 01:33:31.670
was learning Arabic,
2896
01:33:31.670 --> 01:33:33.289
we would speak Arabic together.
2897
01:33:33.289 --> 01:33:34.122
(interviewer chuckles)
2898
01:33:34.122 --> 01:33:36.190
Which was odd, and we would realize, hold on,
2899
01:33:36.190 --> 01:33:37.210
why are we speaking Arabic?
2900
01:33:37.210 --> 01:33:39.660
Then we change to Urdu.
2901
01:33:39.660 --> 01:33:40.520
So would you say Arabic
2902
01:33:40.520 --> 01:33:41.930
was the language of the prison?
2903
01:33:41.930 --> 01:33:42.763
Yeah, it was.
2904
01:33:42.763 --> 01:33:44.470
It was the language of the prison.
2905
01:33:44.470 --> 01:33:45.700
And people were pretty much
2906
01:33:45.700 --> 01:33:47.972
able to communicate then throughout the prison?
2907
01:33:47.972 --> 01:33:48.805
Yeah, because I mean, for the first
2908
01:33:48.805 --> 01:33:50.700
maybe six, seven months it was hard,
2909
01:33:50.700 --> 01:33:52.550
but because everybody was learning it
2910
01:33:53.604 --> 01:33:55.770
at the same time, and we was all trying,
2911
01:33:55.770 --> 01:33:56.660
it was very easy.
2912
01:33:56.660 --> 01:33:58.160
I mean, when you go to college and learn,
2913
01:33:58.160 --> 01:33:59.130
try and learn language it's hard
2914
01:33:59.130 --> 01:34:00.440
because you're only learning in college,
2915
01:34:00.440 --> 01:34:01.867
and when you go out you don't speak it.
2916
01:34:01.867 --> 01:34:03.007
But obviously, in Guantanamo,
2917
01:34:03.007 --> 01:34:05.700
you was actually speaking it continuously,
2918
01:34:05.700 --> 01:34:07.240
and learning new words.
2919
01:34:07.240 --> 01:34:08.073
And you would try to put it into sentences,
2920
01:34:08.073 --> 01:34:10.630
and you just listen to him what he says,
2921
01:34:10.630 --> 01:34:12.600
and how he puts a sentence,
2922
01:34:12.600 --> 01:34:15.140
cause Arabic is different from English.
2923
01:34:15.140 --> 01:34:17.687
It's like the English sentence is one way,
2924
01:34:17.687 --> 01:34:20.986
and they use it the opposite way, so it's like,
2925
01:34:20.986 --> 01:34:21.819
it's quite-
2926
01:34:21.819 --> 01:34:22.652
Did they teach you
2927
01:34:22.652 --> 01:34:23.966
the language too?
Yeah.
2928
01:34:23.966 --> 01:34:24.799
Would the people
2929
01:34:24.799 --> 01:34:25.632
teach each other?
2930
01:34:25.632 --> 01:34:26.465
Yeah, I had people, I had a few guys
2931
01:34:26.465 --> 01:34:28.100
who taught me Arabic because they could speak
2932
01:34:28.100 --> 01:34:30.060
a small amount of English.
2933
01:34:30.060 --> 01:34:31.810
So, I learned, I learned too quite a bit.
2934
01:34:31.810 --> 01:34:32.960
Then, eventually I moved to somebody
2935
01:34:32.960 --> 01:34:34.520
who spoke quite fluent English.
2936
01:34:34.520 --> 01:34:37.360
So, and he is actually an Arabic teacher,
2937
01:34:37.360 --> 01:34:39.200
who teaches languages.
2938
01:34:39.200 --> 01:34:40.230
So, that was great.
2939
01:34:40.230 --> 01:34:42.903
So, I learnt a fair amount of Arabic from him.
2940
01:34:43.850 --> 01:34:45.460
I wanna go back to where you said
2941
01:34:45.460 --> 01:34:47.230
that you had seen some detainees
2942
01:34:47.230 --> 01:34:48.356
try to commit suicide.
2943
01:34:48.356 --> 01:34:49.189
Uh-huh.
2944
01:34:49.189 --> 01:34:50.022
Could you tell me
2945
01:34:50.022 --> 01:34:51.150
what that was like?
2946
01:34:51.150 --> 01:34:53.640
Well, there was one guy who
2947
01:34:53.640 --> 01:34:56.200
was extremely depressed, you could say.
2948
01:34:56.200 --> 01:34:57.890
He was a Saudi national,
2949
01:34:57.890 --> 01:34:58.920
he was right in front of me,
2950
01:34:58.920 --> 01:35:01.057
and a very large guy.
2951
01:35:01.057 --> 01:35:03.470
And he's always on antidepressants,
2952
01:35:03.470 --> 01:35:04.437
they've put him on that.
2953
01:35:04.437 --> 01:35:05.810
He was not there, I think, mentally,
2954
01:35:05.810 --> 01:35:07.883
unless he was just acting.
2955
01:35:09.487 --> 01:35:11.330
And so, one day he was praying,
2956
01:35:11.330 --> 01:35:12.870
and he was like...
2957
01:35:12.870 --> 01:35:13.703
No, he was praying (chuckles)
2958
01:35:13.703 --> 01:35:15.210
and I was washing up, and then everyone
2959
01:35:15.210 --> 01:35:16.043
just started praying.
2960
01:35:16.043 --> 01:35:18.127
I was a bit behind, and I looked over,
2961
01:35:18.127 --> 01:35:20.313
and all I could see him doing something
2962
01:35:20.313 --> 01:35:21.800
with his bed sheet.
2963
01:35:21.800 --> 01:35:23.709
And I looked over carefully and I thought,
2964
01:35:23.709 --> 01:35:24.542
what's he doing?
2965
01:35:24.542 --> 01:35:25.375
And I thought...
2966
01:35:25.375 --> 01:35:27.855
It kind of got me, I thought, what's he doing?
2967
01:35:27.855 --> 01:35:28.688
And I was watching, and watching, and watching,
2968
01:35:28.688 --> 01:35:30.970
and eventually he starts ripping the sheet.
2969
01:35:30.970 --> 01:35:31.890
Cause obviously, the sheet's not...
2970
01:35:31.890 --> 01:35:34.340
It's like too thick to pull through the mesh.
2971
01:35:34.340 --> 01:35:35.850
So, he rips it, he ties a knot,
2972
01:35:35.850 --> 01:35:37.250
feeds it through and you can hear like,
2973
01:35:37.250 --> 01:35:39.450
going through, tying it.
2974
01:35:39.450 --> 01:35:41.090
And then he ties it around his neck,
2975
01:35:41.090 --> 01:35:42.570
he gets on top of the sink,
2976
01:35:42.570 --> 01:35:45.660
and he jumps off and he's hanging.
2977
01:35:45.660 --> 01:35:47.211
And he's making a noise. (groans)
2978
01:35:47.211 --> 01:35:50.100
And then he can't breathe, and me, and Shafiq,
2979
01:35:50.100 --> 01:35:52.820
and Asif was in one row.
2980
01:35:52.820 --> 01:35:53.750
It was like an execution,
2981
01:35:53.750 --> 01:35:55.839
and there it was (indistinct).
2982
01:35:55.839 --> 01:35:57.630
We was about to pray, we were washing up,
2983
01:35:57.630 --> 01:36:00.220
and Asif shouts out, "MP, someone's trying
2984
01:36:00.220 --> 01:36:01.053
to hang themself."
2985
01:36:01.053 --> 01:36:03.293
MP, we used to call the soldiers MP.
2986
01:36:05.152 --> 01:36:06.410
And they came rushing down,
2987
01:36:06.410 --> 01:36:08.560
they actually ran past his cell. (chuckles)
2988
01:36:08.560 --> 01:36:10.010
They ran past his cell (chuckles)
2989
01:36:10.010 --> 01:36:10.862
made it to the end of...
2990
01:36:10.862 --> 01:36:13.570
Cause it's hard to see through the mesh
2991
01:36:13.570 --> 01:36:15.347
because there's so many mesh, it's hard to see.
2992
01:36:15.347 --> 01:36:17.789
And of course, it's night, which makes it
2993
01:36:17.789 --> 01:36:19.973
quite hard to see more.
2994
01:36:20.862 --> 01:36:21.910
And they ran back, and it was over here,
2995
01:36:21.910 --> 01:36:22.743
over here, they came back.
2996
01:36:22.743 --> 01:36:24.900
He opened the door and the guy was like an obese
2997
01:36:24.900 --> 01:36:26.196
basically, the guy who was hanging.
2998
01:36:26.196 --> 01:36:27.496
So, he was very, very fat.
2999
01:36:28.800 --> 01:36:30.420
And I think, there was about three of them,
3000
01:36:30.420 --> 01:36:32.300
and they were struggling to lift him off.
3001
01:36:32.300 --> 01:36:34.160
So, he was hanging for a long time,
3002
01:36:34.160 --> 01:36:35.510
because of his weight,
3003
01:36:35.510 --> 01:36:38.106
they couldn't flip him and lift him,
3004
01:36:38.106 --> 01:36:40.770
and get the sheet off.
3005
01:36:40.770 --> 01:36:42.170
It took them about 10 minutes,
3006
01:36:42.170 --> 01:36:44.470
and he was nearly out.
3007
01:36:44.470 --> 01:36:45.780
So, that was one incident,
3008
01:36:45.780 --> 01:36:46.613
and there's another incident that happened
3009
01:36:46.613 --> 01:36:49.340
with a normal guy, he tried to kill himself.
3010
01:36:49.340 --> 01:36:50.460
There was one guy in isolation,
3011
01:36:50.460 --> 01:36:54.490
who succeeded apparently, but from what we know,
3012
01:36:54.490 --> 01:36:55.640
his name was Michelle.
3013
01:36:55.640 --> 01:36:59.257
He was also in the first prison that I was in
3014
01:36:59.257 --> 01:37:01.480
and was arrested by the Northern Alliance.
3015
01:37:01.480 --> 01:37:03.680
So, I know him quite well.
3016
01:37:03.680 --> 01:37:04.710
He was in isolation apparently,
3017
01:37:04.710 --> 01:37:05.543
and he tried to hang himself,
3018
01:37:05.543 --> 01:37:08.643
and he actually never died,
3019
01:37:09.686 --> 01:37:11.160
but his brain was starved of oxygen.
3020
01:37:11.160 --> 01:37:13.490
So, that has made him a cabbage basically.
3021
01:37:13.490 --> 01:37:14.960
So, he's paralyzed from...
3022
01:37:14.960 --> 01:37:16.470
Did you see him after the-
3023
01:37:16.470 --> 01:37:17.671
Yeah, I've seen him after.
3024
01:37:17.671 --> 01:37:19.258
How did you see hIm afterwards?
3025
01:37:19.258 --> 01:37:21.830
I went to the dentist to get my teeth done,
3026
01:37:21.830 --> 01:37:24.053
I had a root filling in my tooth.
3027
01:37:24.921 --> 01:37:25.754
I had pains.
3028
01:37:25.754 --> 01:37:28.680
And he was actually always...
3029
01:37:28.680 --> 01:37:30.360
After what happened to him, he was not actually
3030
01:37:30.360 --> 01:37:31.193
brought back to the camp.
3031
01:37:31.193 --> 01:37:34.010
He was always actually, handcuffed to the bed,
3032
01:37:34.010 --> 01:37:35.140
even though he was a cabbage.
3033
01:37:35.140 --> 01:37:36.590
He was always cuffed,
3034
01:37:36.590 --> 01:37:37.423
his legs and his ankles cuffed.
3035
01:37:37.423 --> 01:37:38.420
In the medical clinic?
3036
01:37:38.420 --> 01:37:39.253
In the medical clinic.
3037
01:37:39.253 --> 01:37:40.524
And you would see him there?
3038
01:37:40.524 --> 01:37:41.810
Yeah, I went there a few times
3039
01:37:41.810 --> 01:37:43.263
because I had problems in my stomach.
3040
01:37:43.263 --> 01:37:44.730
I had pains in my stomach,
3041
01:37:44.730 --> 01:37:45.970
had eye problems, and I had
3042
01:37:45.970 --> 01:37:47.570
to go see a consultant.
3043
01:37:47.570 --> 01:37:51.833
And I had a tooth, my tooth was hurting,
3044
01:37:51.833 --> 01:37:53.330
so I had a root filling done
3045
01:37:53.330 --> 01:37:55.150
when I was in Guantanamo.
3046
01:37:55.150 --> 01:37:56.567
So, I saw him because I had to stay there
3047
01:37:56.567 --> 01:37:58.030
for a couple of hours.
3048
01:37:58.030 --> 01:37:59.750
Could you tell us a little bit
3049
01:37:59.750 --> 01:38:01.770
about when you went to the medical clinic,
3050
01:38:01.770 --> 01:38:03.818
how they took care of you and what they did?
3051
01:38:03.818 --> 01:38:05.210
(indistinct) to do with the medical clinic,
3052
01:38:05.210 --> 01:38:07.170
when I had my tooth done, it was great.
3053
01:38:07.170 --> 01:38:08.003
It was?
3054
01:38:08.003 --> 01:38:08.836
It was really, really good.
3055
01:38:08.836 --> 01:38:11.200
The guy was like, bang on.
3056
01:38:11.200 --> 01:38:14.380
He was a black dude, and he talked about England.
3057
01:38:14.380 --> 01:38:18.270
And when he came on a trip to the UK
3058
01:38:18.270 --> 01:38:19.893
with the girls, when he was young, obviously,
3059
01:38:19.893 --> 01:38:21.080
and he was telling me some stories,
3060
01:38:21.080 --> 01:38:23.460
which was funny, and he was very nice.
3061
01:38:23.460 --> 01:38:24.963
He took a long time on my tooth.
3062
01:38:24.963 --> 01:38:27.380
On one, he took about eight hours and now,
3063
01:38:27.380 --> 01:38:28.413
I can understand why Americans
3064
01:38:28.413 --> 01:38:30.040
have so good teeth.
3065
01:38:30.040 --> 01:38:32.100
So white and so good, so straight.
3066
01:38:32.100 --> 01:38:33.700
Obviously, Brits have got a bad reputation
3067
01:38:33.700 --> 01:38:35.789
for their teeth. (laughs)
3068
01:38:35.789 --> 01:38:36.622
(interviewer chuckles)
3069
01:38:36.622 --> 01:38:37.455
So, you know?
3070
01:38:37.455 --> 01:38:38.851
So, he took good care of you too.
3071
01:38:38.851 --> 01:38:40.670
Yeah, he was there for a long time,
3072
01:38:40.670 --> 01:38:41.690
and he was taking his time,
3073
01:38:41.690 --> 01:38:44.200
and he's like cleaned it, and he was really good.
3074
01:38:44.200 --> 01:38:45.820
And he was being very nice.
3075
01:38:45.820 --> 01:38:46.720
Other instance-
3076
01:38:46.720 --> 01:38:48.702
Have you ever heard
3077
01:38:48.702 --> 01:38:49.720
of other dentists, of other people not having
3078
01:38:49.720 --> 01:38:51.480
the same good treatment for dentists?
3079
01:38:51.480 --> 01:38:53.397
No, Shafiq went to the dentist as well,
3080
01:38:53.397 --> 01:38:55.027
and he's seen the same guy, I think,
3081
01:38:55.027 --> 01:38:57.800
and he also says that he was great.
3082
01:38:57.800 --> 01:38:58.633
I went to...
3083
01:38:58.633 --> 01:39:01.610
I actually went out once out of the camp.
3084
01:39:01.610 --> 01:39:02.930
They took me out of the camp once completely.
3085
01:39:02.930 --> 01:39:03.860
For what?
3086
01:39:03.860 --> 01:39:05.440
I went to another medical center,
3087
01:39:05.440 --> 01:39:07.265
which was a Navy hospital.
3088
01:39:07.265 --> 01:39:09.360
For what purpose?
3089
01:39:09.360 --> 01:39:10.193
I suffer from...
3090
01:39:10.193 --> 01:39:12.120
I've got impaired sight in both of my eyes.
3091
01:39:12.120 --> 01:39:13.740
So, I'm partially blind in both eyes.
3092
01:39:13.740 --> 01:39:16.010
So, I have to have corrective contact lenses
3093
01:39:16.010 --> 01:39:17.780
to see, glasses don't help cause
3094
01:39:17.780 --> 01:39:20.360
I have this rare condition in my eyes,
3095
01:39:20.360 --> 01:39:21.800
which is miss shaping of the...
3096
01:39:21.800 --> 01:39:23.560
My cornea is misshaped.
3097
01:39:23.560 --> 01:39:25.470
So, for me to see properly,
3098
01:39:25.470 --> 01:39:28.350
I have to have these special lenses made
3099
01:39:28.350 --> 01:39:31.420
according to size of my eyes and the shape.
3100
01:39:31.420 --> 01:39:34.320
And it's made of plastic, hard plastic.
3101
01:39:34.320 --> 01:39:36.460
So, they took me there to measure my eyes up
3102
01:39:36.460 --> 01:39:38.950
and they was gonna give me some contact lenses,
3103
01:39:38.950 --> 01:39:40.350
but that was just before I left.
3104
01:39:40.350 --> 01:39:43.270
They gave me like the last three months.
3105
01:39:43.270 --> 01:39:44.545
Before that they ignored it?
3106
01:39:44.545 --> 01:39:45.620
Nah, they ignored it,
3107
01:39:45.620 --> 01:39:47.378
they told me it's not boot camp.
3108
01:39:47.378 --> 01:39:48.457
Huh.
They kept on saying that.
3109
01:39:48.457 --> 01:39:51.150
It's not boot camp, and that actually made my eye
3110
01:39:51.150 --> 01:39:53.990
much worse, both my eyes much worse
3111
01:39:53.990 --> 01:39:56.572
from what it was my vision.
3112
01:39:56.572 --> 01:39:59.860
I'm actually classed disabled, you can say
3113
01:39:59.860 --> 01:40:01.510
because of my sight, cause if I take
3114
01:40:01.510 --> 01:40:03.040
my lenses out, I wouldn't be able to see
3115
01:40:03.040 --> 01:40:05.510
your face clearly from this distance.
3116
01:40:05.510 --> 01:40:07.060
I can't see anything.
3117
01:40:07.060 --> 01:40:07.893
And what happened
3118
01:40:07.893 --> 01:40:08.980
with your stomach?
3119
01:40:08.980 --> 01:40:09.813
How is that-
3120
01:40:09.813 --> 01:40:11.270
I was having some pains in my stomach.
3121
01:40:11.270 --> 01:40:12.880
It was just like the food poisoning,
3122
01:40:12.880 --> 01:40:14.320
or something like that.
3123
01:40:14.320 --> 01:40:16.020
Other times I went to the medical,
3124
01:40:18.190 --> 01:40:22.260
it was okay, but the doctors...
3125
01:40:22.260 --> 01:40:23.750
I never had a bad experience with the doctors,
3126
01:40:23.750 --> 01:40:25.083
to be honest with you.
3127
01:40:25.083 --> 01:40:26.022
What?
3128
01:40:26.022 --> 01:40:26.855
could you mind telling us?
3129
01:40:26.855 --> 01:40:27.994
No, I never had any bad experience.
3130
01:40:27.994 --> 01:40:28.827
Oh, you never had
3131
01:40:28.827 --> 01:40:30.760
a bad experience, oh.
No, not that I can remember.
3132
01:40:30.760 --> 01:40:32.502
I mean, they was always cool.
3133
01:40:32.502 --> 01:40:34.990
(indistinct) was all right, she was a black girl,
3134
01:40:34.990 --> 01:40:36.880
one was a white girl, one was a white guy,
3135
01:40:36.880 --> 01:40:38.010
they was all right.
3136
01:40:38.010 --> 01:40:39.660
The doctors would rarely speak to you,
3137
01:40:39.660 --> 01:40:42.180
because the commons were doing all the job.
3138
01:40:42.180 --> 01:40:43.013
Have you heard
3139
01:40:43.013 --> 01:40:45.800
of instances where the doctors
3140
01:40:45.800 --> 01:40:47.330
weren't giving good medical care?
3141
01:40:47.330 --> 01:40:49.570
Yeah, that happened towards the end
3142
01:40:49.570 --> 01:40:51.470
of when General Miller came in.
3143
01:40:51.470 --> 01:40:53.570
When the interrogators were interrogate...
3144
01:40:54.510 --> 01:40:56.340
Interrogators were given the power
3145
01:40:56.340 --> 01:40:58.490
to control what's happening in the block.
3146
01:40:58.490 --> 01:41:00.750
So, they would control the medical side also.
3147
01:41:00.750 --> 01:41:03.260
So, for example, like Omar Caro,
3148
01:41:03.260 --> 01:41:07.050
the cleaning guy, he wasn't treated
3149
01:41:07.050 --> 01:41:08.840
of his wounds, and he's got cataracts
3150
01:41:08.840 --> 01:41:10.480
in one of his eye.
3151
01:41:10.480 --> 01:41:11.313
He was not treated because
3152
01:41:11.313 --> 01:41:12.790
he was not giving valid information,
3153
01:41:12.790 --> 01:41:14.840
or the information they wanted off him.
3154
01:41:14.840 --> 01:41:16.867
So, because of that reason, the interrogator
3155
01:41:16.867 --> 01:41:21.270
put a stop on his medical supplies basically.
3156
01:41:21.270 --> 01:41:22.953
So, and that-
3157
01:41:22.953 --> 01:41:24.460
And you knew, did you know Omar?
3158
01:41:24.460 --> 01:41:26.430
Yeah, Omar was my cell mate.
3159
01:41:26.430 --> 01:41:28.100
I've actually received letters from Omar
3160
01:41:28.100 --> 01:41:28.933
since I've got released,
3161
01:41:28.933 --> 01:41:29.883
and I've sent him letters
3162
01:41:29.883 --> 01:41:32.600
that he's received letters from.
3163
01:41:32.600 --> 01:41:34.040
So, we stay in touch.
3164
01:41:34.040 --> 01:41:35.520
Well< it's been a long time,
3165
01:41:35.520 --> 01:41:36.470
it's been about a year and a half
3166
01:41:36.470 --> 01:41:37.303
I haven't received anything.
3167
01:41:37.303 --> 01:41:39.490
I think they've just totally cut him off
3168
01:41:39.490 --> 01:41:42.193
cause they've isolated him and so, and so.
3169
01:41:43.360 --> 01:41:44.193
So, and a few more other guys,
3170
01:41:44.193 --> 01:41:45.833
they've stopped medical, they-
3171
01:41:47.580 --> 01:41:48.580
Did you know anybody
3172
01:41:48.580 --> 01:41:51.037
who was on a hunger strike, or were you ever
3173
01:41:51.037 --> 01:41:51.870
on a hunger strike?
3174
01:41:51.870 --> 01:41:53.890
Yeah, I know people who were on hunger,
3175
01:41:53.890 --> 01:41:55.597
one guy was Mohamed Rajib.
3176
01:41:55.597 --> 01:41:57.340
He was also our frequent flyer,
3177
01:41:57.340 --> 01:41:58.770
on the frequent flyer program.
3178
01:41:58.770 --> 01:42:00.880
He was on medical hunger strike,
3179
01:42:00.880 --> 01:42:02.230
and they would force feed him
3180
01:42:02.230 --> 01:42:03.750
through little tubes, or whatever.
3181
01:42:03.750 --> 01:42:05.370
So, I mean, that goes against
3182
01:42:05.370 --> 01:42:07.760
their doctors thing, whatever they signed.
3183
01:42:07.760 --> 01:42:08.593
Did you ever hear of
3184
01:42:08.593 --> 01:42:10.603
a whole group of people doing it ever?
3185
01:42:12.170 --> 01:42:14.530
I've heard of it since I've come out
3186
01:42:14.530 --> 01:42:16.270
of Guantanamo, but not while I was in Guantanamo.
3187
01:42:16.270 --> 01:42:19.077
Obviously we used to have injections forced,
3188
01:42:19.077 --> 01:42:20.630
they used to force us to give injections.
3189
01:42:20.630 --> 01:42:22.064
That's something that was common to everybody.
3190
01:42:22.064 --> 01:42:23.238
For what?
3191
01:42:23.238 --> 01:42:25.160
We used to get injections every six
3192
01:42:25.160 --> 01:42:26.410
to seven months, we'd get injections.
3193
01:42:26.410 --> 01:42:28.850
Apparently it was for flu vaccination,
3194
01:42:28.850 --> 01:42:30.300
influenza apparently.
Why do you
3195
01:42:30.300 --> 01:42:31.521
say apparently, they told you, or-
3196
01:42:31.521 --> 01:42:33.010
They told us every time
3197
01:42:33.010 --> 01:42:34.590
they would come give you an injection,
3198
01:42:34.590 --> 01:42:37.790
it's an influenza to protect us from the flu.
3199
01:42:37.790 --> 01:42:39.670
But I don't know about in America,
3200
01:42:39.670 --> 01:42:41.710
but in the UK, the only people who are allowed
3201
01:42:41.710 --> 01:42:43.700
to have actually flu vaccination,
3202
01:42:43.700 --> 01:42:45.410
is the child of the age of one,
3203
01:42:45.410 --> 01:42:47.205
and an old aged pensioner,
3204
01:42:47.205 --> 01:42:48.810
who's over the age of 60.
3205
01:42:48.810 --> 01:42:51.750
Or if you've got diabetes, severe case of asthma,
3206
01:42:51.750 --> 01:42:52.583
severe diabetes type two,
3207
01:42:52.583 --> 01:42:54.130
I think you have to have.
3208
01:42:54.130 --> 01:42:54.970
Severe type of di...
3209
01:42:54.970 --> 01:42:57.430
Certain kind of high blood pressure.
3210
01:42:57.430 --> 01:42:59.640
You have to have a severe case of certain
3211
01:42:59.640 --> 01:43:00.770
kind of illnesses,
3212
01:43:00.770 --> 01:43:03.200
and then they will give you influenza.
3213
01:43:03.200 --> 01:43:05.460
Very rare that I've come across anybody
3214
01:43:05.460 --> 01:43:07.950
in the UK to have a flu vaccination
3215
01:43:07.950 --> 01:43:09.930
at the age of 20. (chuckles)
3216
01:43:09.930 --> 01:43:11.500
Very rare, actually I don't think
3217
01:43:11.500 --> 01:43:12.840
they've ever gave anybody that,
3218
01:43:12.840 --> 01:43:15.620
because the human body our metab...
3219
01:43:15.620 --> 01:43:17.430
The immune system is strong enough
3220
01:43:17.430 --> 01:43:19.570
to fight it off, but okay,
3221
01:43:19.570 --> 01:43:22.610
if you wanna give us it once, maybe yeah,
3222
01:43:22.610 --> 01:43:23.780
I can say, yeah.
3223
01:43:23.780 --> 01:43:25.300
Every six months you gonna come to me
3224
01:43:25.300 --> 01:43:26.400
and say it's influenza.
3225
01:43:26.400 --> 01:43:28.040
It's like, what you talking about?
3226
01:43:28.040 --> 01:43:30.009
It just makes no sense.
3227
01:43:30.009 --> 01:43:32.610
Like if you cut your hand with metal,
3228
01:43:32.610 --> 01:43:35.050
you gonna have your tetanus jab,
3229
01:43:35.050 --> 01:43:36.740
you're covered for 10 years.
3230
01:43:36.740 --> 01:43:40.550
Then if you have, I think three in 30 years
3231
01:43:40.550 --> 01:43:41.740
then you don't need it ever again
3232
01:43:41.740 --> 01:43:42.770
for the rest of your life.
3233
01:43:42.770 --> 01:43:44.500
So, I've had three tetanus jabs.
3234
01:43:44.500 --> 01:43:46.420
So, they said to me I'll never need it again,
3235
01:43:46.420 --> 01:43:48.153
no matter how many times I cut my hand,
3236
01:43:48.153 --> 01:43:49.970
whether it's rusty iron, or metal.
3237
01:43:49.970 --> 01:43:51.340
There's certain things that people
3238
01:43:51.340 --> 01:43:52.430
have basic knowledge of,
3239
01:43:52.430 --> 01:43:54.009
even though we're not doctors. (chuckles)
3240
01:43:54.009 --> 01:43:54.842
Right.
3241
01:43:54.842 --> 01:43:55.675
It's something that is common,
3242
01:43:55.675 --> 01:43:57.340
common knowledge, known to everybody.
3243
01:43:57.340 --> 01:43:58.942
So, that would be something rare
3244
01:43:58.942 --> 01:43:59.900
that they would come and force us
3245
01:43:59.900 --> 01:44:01.585
to have injections every six months,
3246
01:44:01.585 --> 01:44:03.180
and you would actually get earthed
3247
01:44:03.180 --> 01:44:04.430
to have these injections.
3248
01:44:05.360 --> 01:44:06.193
They would bring you to make...
3249
01:44:06.193 --> 01:44:07.690
They would earth you-
3250
01:44:07.690 --> 01:44:08.547
No, no, they would come to the cell,
3251
01:44:08.547 --> 01:44:10.730
and they would ask you to volunteer
3252
01:44:10.730 --> 01:44:11.610
to have the injections.
3253
01:44:11.610 --> 01:44:13.123
So, you have to get your hands out
3254
01:44:13.123 --> 01:44:15.460
and they would just inject you in your shoulder,
3255
01:44:15.460 --> 01:44:17.310
or wherever, and if you refused it,
3256
01:44:17.310 --> 01:44:20.470
then they would earth you and they would tie
3257
01:44:20.470 --> 01:44:23.089
you up basically and then force you to have it.
3258
01:44:23.089 --> 01:44:25.370
Mm, did you ever meet
3259
01:44:25.370 --> 01:44:26.400
with the Red Cross?
3260
01:44:26.400 --> 01:44:27.860
Oh, on many occasions.
3261
01:44:27.860 --> 01:44:29.160
How was that?
3262
01:44:29.160 --> 01:44:30.420
Oh, ready?
3263
01:44:30.420 --> 01:44:31.253
Yeah.
Yeah.
3264
01:44:31.253 --> 01:44:34.603
Okay, so could you tell me
3265
01:44:34.603 --> 01:44:36.280
a little bit about how you met
3266
01:44:36.280 --> 01:44:38.220
with the Red Cross and if it changed
3267
01:44:38.220 --> 01:44:40.440
over time, or you know?
3268
01:44:40.440 --> 01:44:41.960
The first time you met with them.
3269
01:44:41.960 --> 01:44:42.930
The first time met with them,
3270
01:44:42.930 --> 01:44:44.230
obviously the Red Cross was when I was
3271
01:44:44.230 --> 01:44:47.540
in actually, in prison by the Northern Alliance.
3272
01:44:47.540 --> 01:44:50.473
Then I met them in Kandahar.
3273
01:44:51.390 --> 01:44:54.660
They was no good in both prisons.
3274
01:44:54.660 --> 01:44:55.930
They was no good, they was a waste of time.
3275
01:44:55.930 --> 01:44:56.763
Why?
3276
01:44:56.763 --> 01:44:58.380
Because they wasn't given any power
3277
01:44:58.380 --> 01:45:01.270
to do anything on behalf of the detainees.
3278
01:45:01.270 --> 01:45:04.550
Well, okay, they brought us fresh water,
3279
01:45:04.550 --> 01:45:06.330
and they gave us a bar of soap that we couldn't
3280
01:45:06.330 --> 01:45:08.950
have a bath with, so it was a waste of money.
3281
01:45:08.950 --> 01:45:09.880
They bought in...
3282
01:45:09.880 --> 01:45:11.740
This is obviously in the first prison
3283
01:45:11.740 --> 01:45:13.230
by the Northern Alliance.
3284
01:45:13.230 --> 01:45:16.310
They gave the Northern Alliance,
3285
01:45:16.310 --> 01:45:19.860
the prison guards two truck fulls of flour,
3286
01:45:19.860 --> 01:45:22.270
plain flour to make bread and dough
3287
01:45:22.270 --> 01:45:23.660
so we can get some food.
3288
01:45:23.660 --> 01:45:25.470
But we got bread for about three days,
3289
01:45:25.470 --> 01:45:27.520
then somebody, one of the prison guards,
3290
01:45:27.520 --> 01:45:29.150
they robbed the whole truck.
3291
01:45:29.150 --> 01:45:29.983
How do you know that?
3292
01:45:29.983 --> 01:45:31.600
Cause we was told by the Red Cross. (laughs)
3293
01:45:31.600 --> 01:45:32.680
Really?
3294
01:45:32.680 --> 01:45:34.818
Yeah, they took it because that's (indistinct).
3295
01:45:34.818 --> 01:45:38.430
You got a massive truck full of flour,
3296
01:45:38.430 --> 01:45:40.600
it's like, probably two years supply
3297
01:45:40.600 --> 01:45:42.680
for your family, probably three years supply.
3298
01:45:42.680 --> 01:45:44.832
I mean, it's not like flour goes off,
3299
01:45:44.832 --> 01:45:45.665
there's no expiry date.
3300
01:45:45.665 --> 01:45:46.498
So, he thought that...
3301
01:45:46.498 --> 01:45:47.800
He got the chance and he thought, yes,
3302
01:45:47.800 --> 01:45:50.720
this is my chance fr getting some bread
3303
01:45:50.720 --> 01:45:52.250
for the next three years for free.
3304
01:45:52.250 --> 01:45:53.673
So, obviously that went.
3305
01:45:55.310 --> 01:45:56.143
In Kandahar?
3306
01:45:56.143 --> 01:45:58.440
In Kandahar, they didn't do much,
3307
01:45:58.440 --> 01:46:00.400
they was not allowed to do much.
3308
01:46:00.400 --> 01:46:02.750
They wasn't given much access to us.
3309
01:46:02.750 --> 01:46:04.531
So, the only thing they gave us is Qurans.
3310
01:46:04.531 --> 01:46:06.495
(phone rings loudly)
3311
01:46:06.495 --> 01:46:07.955
(laughs) Sorry about that.
3312
01:46:07.955 --> 01:46:09.630
It's okay.
[Interviewer} Mm-Hmm.
3313
01:46:09.630 --> 01:46:10.670
It's probably...
3314
01:46:11.840 --> 01:46:16.840
So, the Red Cross at Kandahar?
3315
01:46:17.125 --> 01:46:19.050
The only thing Red Cross in Kandahar did
3316
01:46:19.050 --> 01:46:22.065
was take complaints and they gave us Qurans,
3317
01:46:22.065 --> 01:46:22.898
that's about it.
3318
01:46:22.898 --> 01:46:26.200
They had no other say in anything whatsoever.
3319
01:46:26.200 --> 01:46:28.050
And the fact that we wrote letters
3320
01:46:28.050 --> 01:46:29.710
through them, and that's about it.
3321
01:46:29.710 --> 01:46:33.750
In Guantanamo, they initially for the first month
3322
01:46:33.750 --> 01:46:37.300
didn't have no impact at all, whatsoever.
3323
01:46:37.300 --> 01:46:38.133
The only thing they were good for,
3324
01:46:38.133 --> 01:46:41.670
they would just take you out to a tent,
3325
01:46:41.670 --> 01:46:43.010
or an integration booth,
3326
01:46:43.010 --> 01:46:45.470
where there was given access to us,
3327
01:46:45.470 --> 01:46:49.040
and it was just us and them.
3328
01:46:49.040 --> 01:46:50.800
And they would bring a lot of food, cookies,
3329
01:46:50.800 --> 01:46:52.577
and chocolates and stuff.
3330
01:46:52.577 --> 01:46:54.610
The first time I met them they brought
3331
01:46:54.610 --> 01:46:57.120
two packs of cookies about this big,
3332
01:46:57.120 --> 01:46:58.440
probably that big, and there was like,
3333
01:46:58.440 --> 01:46:59.650
loads in this packet.
3334
01:46:59.650 --> 01:47:01.140
They had about three packets,
3335
01:47:01.140 --> 01:47:02.538
and I actually ate all of them.
3336
01:47:02.538 --> 01:47:03.371
(interviewer chuckles)
3337
01:47:03.371 --> 01:47:04.279
They had a lot of peanuts in them,
3338
01:47:04.279 --> 01:47:07.719
pistachios and I went back to my cell half
3339
01:47:07.719 --> 01:47:09.820
an hour later, I puked up. (laughs)
3340
01:47:09.820 --> 01:47:10.720
The amount of sugar in me.
3341
01:47:10.720 --> 01:47:12.947
I got sick, puked it all out.
3342
01:47:12.947 --> 01:47:15.080
I juts thought, damn,
3343
01:47:15.080 --> 01:47:17.460
couldn't even digest it properly,
3344
01:47:17.460 --> 01:47:19.100
but it tasted great.
3345
01:47:19.100 --> 01:47:21.860
Other than that, they really don't
3346
01:47:21.860 --> 01:47:23.050
have an impact.
3347
01:47:23.050 --> 01:47:25.660
They did do a bit of things,
3348
01:47:25.660 --> 01:47:26.872
they increased the food,
3349
01:47:26.872 --> 01:47:28.322
they changed the food for us.
3350
01:47:31.540 --> 01:47:33.360
We wrote letters through them.
3351
01:47:33.360 --> 01:47:36.430
There was more of like mail people,
3352
01:47:36.430 --> 01:47:39.210
like Royal Mail we have here, postmen,
3353
01:47:39.210 --> 01:47:40.587
that was the basic job for them.
3354
01:47:40.587 --> 01:47:42.020
Did you ever ask them why
3355
01:47:42.020 --> 01:47:43.541
you were in Guantanamo,
3356
01:47:43.541 --> 01:47:44.620
or if they could help you?
3357
01:47:44.620 --> 01:47:46.590
No, we asked them, but they said
3358
01:47:46.590 --> 01:47:49.480
obviously, because it's a serious situations
3359
01:47:49.480 --> 01:47:53.760
we're not allowed POW's and detainees, kind of,
3360
01:47:53.760 --> 01:47:55.410
and they haven't got full access.
3361
01:47:57.440 --> 01:48:00.020
So, they're limited in terms of what they do
3362
01:48:00.020 --> 01:48:02.610
and also, I think that it was the deal
3363
01:48:02.610 --> 01:48:04.000
that if they don't go public,
3364
01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:05.583
then they get limited access.
3365
01:48:06.985 --> 01:48:08.290
Were the Americans ever present
3366
01:48:08.290 --> 01:48:09.180
when the Red Cross was there?
3367
01:48:09.180 --> 01:48:11.460
Initially they used to be present all the time,
3368
01:48:11.460 --> 01:48:12.590
but later on I think about,
3369
01:48:12.590 --> 01:48:16.490
I can't give you a timescale, but maybe
3370
01:48:16.490 --> 01:48:21.080
after a year they would not be there,
3371
01:48:21.080 --> 01:48:22.350
the Americans would not be there,
3372
01:48:22.350 --> 01:48:24.704
but obviously, they had body mics on.
3373
01:48:24.704 --> 01:48:27.885
Obviously it's because it was known.
3374
01:48:27.885 --> 01:48:30.240
Hmm, have you had a look
3375
01:48:30.240 --> 01:48:32.840
at like the worst experience
3376
01:48:32.840 --> 01:48:34.120
you had in Guantanamo,
3377
01:48:34.120 --> 01:48:36.130
would you be able to kind of...
3378
01:48:37.600 --> 01:48:38.840
The worst in terms of treatment,
3379
01:48:38.840 --> 01:48:41.470
I would say probably the stress position
3380
01:48:41.470 --> 01:48:46.101
and the music, not the physical side of it,
3381
01:48:46.101 --> 01:48:48.514
I would say the psychological side of it
3382
01:48:48.514 --> 01:48:49.810
was probably hard.
3383
01:48:49.810 --> 01:48:53.150
Other than that, also not knowing
3384
01:48:54.060 --> 01:48:56.260
of what's happening,
3385
01:48:56.260 --> 01:48:58.690
and you'll be left in the dark, basically.
3386
01:48:58.690 --> 01:49:00.580
That was difficult, but as I said,
3387
01:49:00.580 --> 01:49:02.460
if you kind of accept the fact
3388
01:49:02.460 --> 01:49:05.110
that this is how it is,
3389
01:49:05.110 --> 01:49:06.651
then you're gonna cope with it.
3390
01:49:06.651 --> 01:49:09.650
But I think initially, that was hard not knowing
3391
01:49:10.920 --> 01:49:11.830
when you're gonna get home,
3392
01:49:11.830 --> 01:49:13.036
why you've been arrested,
3393
01:49:13.036 --> 01:49:14.740
why you're being held, why you're being treated
3394
01:49:14.740 --> 01:49:16.370
in such a way.
3395
01:49:16.370 --> 01:49:18.570
And especially by Americans,
3396
01:49:18.570 --> 01:49:20.840
that was hard to comprehend, very hard.
3397
01:49:28.040 --> 01:49:29.370
So it sounds like a lot
3398
01:49:29.370 --> 01:49:31.890
of the people were really nicer to you than...
3399
01:49:33.020 --> 01:49:34.240
I wanna say...
3400
01:49:34.240 --> 01:49:35.890
I would say probably 5% of the soldiers
3401
01:49:35.890 --> 01:49:37.780
were good, and they was nice.
3402
01:49:37.780 --> 01:49:39.810
Majority were assholes and bad,
3403
01:49:39.810 --> 01:49:41.783
but obviously those people who were nice,
3404
01:49:42.790 --> 01:49:43.770
we had a lot of things in common
3405
01:49:43.770 --> 01:49:46.170
with the Americans, many things in common.
3406
01:49:46.170 --> 01:49:48.520
The way we were brought up, our lifestyle,
3407
01:49:48.520 --> 01:49:51.110
our eating habits, socializing habits.
3408
01:49:51.110 --> 01:49:52.470
It's literally the same, there's no difference.
3409
01:49:52.470 --> 01:49:53.570
The only thing is we live...
3410
01:49:53.570 --> 01:49:56.730
We got different accents and we live different,
3411
01:49:56.730 --> 01:49:58.910
we have different housing styles.
3412
01:49:58.910 --> 01:50:00.430
The houses are laid out different.
3413
01:50:00.430 --> 01:50:01.263
We drive different cars.
3414
01:50:01.263 --> 01:50:03.770
We drive normal cars, you drive massive tanks.
3415
01:50:03.770 --> 01:50:06.060
(chuckles) So, that's the difference.
3416
01:50:06.060 --> 01:50:07.390
I mean, we had so many things in common
3417
01:50:07.390 --> 01:50:10.830
so we could talk about films, and some soldier
3418
01:50:10.830 --> 01:50:12.530
would come and play chess with us.
3419
01:50:13.396 --> 01:50:14.229
Really?
3420
01:50:14.229 --> 01:50:15.950
Yeah, one soldier, his name was Parish,
3421
01:50:15.950 --> 01:50:16.783
his surname was Parish.
3422
01:50:16.783 --> 01:50:20.170
He would actually open the door of the cage,
3423
01:50:20.170 --> 01:50:21.190
and he would actually come and sit
3424
01:50:21.190 --> 01:50:23.070
on our bunk and he would play chess,
3425
01:50:23.070 --> 01:50:24.570
and checkers with us.
3426
01:50:24.570 --> 01:50:25.980
And no one disciplined
3427
01:50:25.980 --> 01:50:26.813
him for that.
3428
01:50:26.813 --> 01:50:29.000
No, because he was actually the block sergeant.
3429
01:50:29.000 --> 01:50:29.920
He was actually the block sergeant,
3430
01:50:29.920 --> 01:50:31.210
so he would do...
3431
01:50:31.210 --> 01:50:33.480
Obviously people on his team
3432
01:50:33.480 --> 01:50:34.430
wouldn't obviously cross on it
3433
01:50:34.430 --> 01:50:35.300
because they would...
3434
01:50:35.300 --> 01:50:36.850
They was also quite cool,
3435
01:50:36.850 --> 01:50:38.270
so that was quite normal.
3436
01:50:38.270 --> 01:50:39.110
There was one...
3437
01:50:39.110 --> 01:50:40.732
There was two MP's
3438
01:50:40.732 --> 01:50:45.732
from South California, Carolina.
3439
01:50:46.320 --> 01:50:47.930
Oh, South Carolina?
3440
01:50:47.930 --> 01:50:49.036
Carolina, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
3441
01:50:49.036 --> 01:50:50.256
He was from there.
3442
01:50:50.256 --> 01:50:55.256
And one was white, MP white, and MP Floyd, right?
3443
01:50:56.810 --> 01:50:58.700
And he was probably my age, very young.
3444
01:50:58.700 --> 01:51:00.190
And there was like, there was probably
3445
01:51:00.190 --> 01:51:02.920
the best soldiers, the nicest people
3446
01:51:02.920 --> 01:51:04.600
I've met in my entire life.
3447
01:51:04.600 --> 01:51:06.690
They were so down to earth, it was unbelievable.
3448
01:51:06.690 --> 01:51:08.930
You couldn't get any better people
3449
01:51:08.930 --> 01:51:10.530
than these two guys.
3450
01:51:10.530 --> 01:51:12.080
They would bring us ice creams,
3451
01:51:12.080 --> 01:51:14.740
sneak us ice creams, Snickers, Mars,
3452
01:51:14.740 --> 01:51:16.140
Ben and Jerry's in the night.
3453
01:51:16.140 --> 01:51:17.100
And when they were doing night shift
3454
01:51:17.100 --> 01:51:20.800
it was a (indistinct) and get food, and coke.
3455
01:51:20.800 --> 01:51:22.240
You name, they used to bring it,
3456
01:51:22.240 --> 01:51:23.740
sneak it underneath their pockets
3457
01:51:23.740 --> 01:51:25.340
and come and give it to us.
3458
01:51:25.340 --> 01:51:27.878
I actually had long hair in Guantanamo,
3459
01:51:27.878 --> 01:51:28.711
I actually grew my hair.
3460
01:51:28.711 --> 01:51:29.581
So, it was quite long.
3461
01:51:29.581 --> 01:51:30.414
It was probably like long
3462
01:51:30.414 --> 01:51:31.590
as probably my shoulder.
3463
01:51:31.590 --> 01:51:34.250
And obviously, having no shampoo
3464
01:51:34.250 --> 01:51:35.580
and having no conditioner,
3465
01:51:35.580 --> 01:51:37.750
you have a lot of knots in your hair.
3466
01:51:37.750 --> 01:51:40.130
So, I asked for a comb, and I asked
3467
01:51:40.130 --> 01:51:44.300
for some Pantene shampoo and conditioner,
3468
01:51:44.300 --> 01:51:45.500
And they actually went out and bought
3469
01:51:45.500 --> 01:51:46.907
this for me, and gave it to me,
3470
01:51:46.907 --> 01:51:49.250
and what they did, they have...
3471
01:51:49.250 --> 01:51:52.010
Every individual has a file,
3472
01:51:52.010 --> 01:51:53.610
and on this file it tells you
3473
01:51:53.610 --> 01:51:56.060
what you allowed to have, what the individual
3474
01:51:56.060 --> 01:51:56.893
is allowed to have.
3475
01:51:56.893 --> 01:51:59.257
So, what they did, they actually wrote in there,
3476
01:51:59.257 --> 01:52:00.540
"He's allowed to have a comb,
3477
01:52:00.540 --> 01:52:03.860
he's allowed to have shampoo and a conditioner."
3478
01:52:03.860 --> 01:52:06.040
So, the other soldiers would come and say,
3479
01:52:06.040 --> 01:52:08.880
"Hang on, he's got Pantene,
3480
01:52:08.880 --> 01:52:09.814
what's happening here?"
3481
01:52:09.814 --> 01:52:12.990
And they were like the ones who were not so nice,
3482
01:52:12.990 --> 01:52:14.680
not so friendly, they would be very,
3483
01:52:14.680 --> 01:52:16.600
very pissed off and angry.
3484
01:52:16.600 --> 01:52:17.830
The fact that I've got a comb
3485
01:52:17.830 --> 01:52:20.470
and I got Pantene, and them like, basically
3486
01:52:20.470 --> 01:52:21.470
we don't get this kind of treatment
3487
01:52:21.470 --> 01:52:23.244
from the army, so why should he?
3488
01:52:23.244 --> 01:52:24.077
And I said, well, why don't you go
3489
01:52:24.077 --> 01:52:25.277
and look at your paperwork, and he would go
3490
01:52:25.277 --> 01:52:27.875
and say, "He's allowed to have it." (chuckles)
3491
01:52:27.875 --> 01:52:28.770
(interviewer and female chuckle)
3492
01:52:28.770 --> 01:52:31.390
So, what they did, they put it into the book.
3493
01:52:31.390 --> 01:52:33.410
So, I had shampoo and conditioner,
3494
01:52:33.410 --> 01:52:35.630
and a brush in my cell all the time,
3495
01:52:35.630 --> 01:52:36.880
and it was great.
3496
01:52:36.880 --> 01:52:37.840
Do you know why
3497
01:52:37.840 --> 01:52:39.760
they did that for you?
3498
01:52:39.760 --> 01:52:40.593
You know...
3499
01:52:43.046 --> 01:52:44.140
Just because they're nice people,
3500
01:52:44.140 --> 01:52:47.503
not everybody's, not every apple's bad.
3501
01:52:47.503 --> 01:52:48.336
Do you know what I mean?
3502
01:52:48.336 --> 01:52:50.386
Even though you're in the military,
3503
01:52:50.386 --> 01:52:51.230
and you're in that situation
3504
01:52:51.230 --> 01:52:53.190
doesn't mean you're bad.
3505
01:52:53.190 --> 01:52:54.610
Even though they've joined the military,
3506
01:52:54.610 --> 01:52:56.310
maybe they didn't really know
3507
01:52:56.310 --> 01:52:57.610
what they were signing up for,
3508
01:52:57.610 --> 01:52:59.660
and not everybody wanted to go to Guantanamo
3509
01:52:59.660 --> 01:53:03.073
and be babysitters for detainees.
3510
01:53:04.120 --> 01:53:05.490
Majority of the people who we spoke to,
3511
01:53:05.490 --> 01:53:07.430
who were good, the only reason
3512
01:53:07.430 --> 01:53:08.263
they actually joined the military
3513
01:53:08.263 --> 01:53:10.130
was for education, free education.
3514
01:53:10.130 --> 01:53:11.760
That was the sole purpose of joining
3515
01:53:11.760 --> 01:53:13.200
the military to be reserve.
3516
01:53:13.200 --> 01:53:14.510
Mm-hmm.
3517
01:53:14.510 --> 01:53:17.800
They didn't know, no one had imagined
3518
01:53:17.800 --> 01:53:20.050
such a thing like 9/11 to happen.
3519
01:53:20.050 --> 01:53:21.683
No one could have thought of it,
3520
01:53:22.774 --> 01:53:25.140
and it was unfortunate that they signed up
3521
01:53:25.140 --> 01:53:27.720
and then they were sent.
3522
01:53:27.720 --> 01:53:28.690
And did they say to you
3523
01:53:28.690 --> 01:53:31.380
that about that they felt badly that they got-
3524
01:53:31.380 --> 01:53:35.220
Yeah, many of them would say, "We apologize
3525
01:53:35.220 --> 01:53:36.980
on behalf of our government, what they're doing."
3526
01:53:36.980 --> 01:53:39.333
We don't agree with it, but I would always say
3527
01:53:39.333 --> 01:53:42.588
that it's not their place to actually apologize
3528
01:53:42.588 --> 01:53:45.600
because it's not them directly responsible
3529
01:53:45.600 --> 01:53:47.561
for our imprisonment.
3530
01:53:47.561 --> 01:53:48.394
Do you know what I mean?
3531
01:53:48.394 --> 01:53:49.908
I understand that he has to treat us
3532
01:53:49.908 --> 01:53:52.100
in a certain way because he signed up to it.
3533
01:53:52.100 --> 01:53:54.380
If he doesn't abide by his rules
3534
01:53:54.380 --> 01:53:56.624
that means he's gonna be in prison.
3535
01:53:56.624 --> 01:53:58.098
And sometimes you have to look at his situation
3536
01:53:58.098 --> 01:54:01.274
and you have to say, okay,
3537
01:54:01.274 --> 01:54:02.107
do you know what I mean?
3538
01:54:02.107 --> 01:54:02.940
Even though you don't wanna do it,
3539
01:54:02.940 --> 01:54:03.773
but you're forced to do it
3540
01:54:03.773 --> 01:54:04.893
because you're gonna be imprisoned.
3541
01:54:05.760 --> 01:54:07.120
You can kind of recover-
3542
01:54:07.120 --> 01:54:08.210
Do you know what year that was
3543
01:54:08.210 --> 01:54:10.890
when was it early on, or was it-
3544
01:54:10.890 --> 01:54:13.127
2003, about 2003.
3545
01:54:13.127 --> 01:54:14.410
And do you...
3546
01:54:14.410 --> 01:54:16.700
Could you explain how you had exercise first
3547
01:54:16.700 --> 01:54:18.237
when you were in Camp X-ray,
3548
01:54:18.237 --> 01:54:20.440
and then later on how it changed?
3549
01:54:20.440 --> 01:54:21.280
Camp X-ray we was not allowed
3550
01:54:21.280 --> 01:54:23.010
to exercise whatsoever.
3551
01:54:23.010 --> 01:54:24.197
It was not allowed.
3552
01:54:24.197 --> 01:54:25.030
Not allowed.
3553
01:54:25.030 --> 01:54:25.863
No, even when we were going to...
3554
01:54:25.863 --> 01:54:28.398
When we got to a camp, I mean,
3555
01:54:28.398 --> 01:54:29.700
for Camp X-ray, we had...
3556
01:54:30.960 --> 01:54:32.260
They would take us out once a week
3557
01:54:32.260 --> 01:54:35.140
for a walk, for exercise.
3558
01:54:35.140 --> 01:54:37.150
And we would walk with actually,
3559
01:54:37.150 --> 01:54:39.560
our cuffs on, our leg irons on.
3560
01:54:39.560 --> 01:54:43.130
So, obviously the chain is only a set length.
3561
01:54:43.130 --> 01:54:44.680
So, you can't even take a full step.
3562
01:54:44.680 --> 01:54:47.000
You taking, like penguin steps.
3563
01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:49.250
You can call it, and that's...
3564
01:54:49.250 --> 01:54:50.210
They would never take them off,
3565
01:54:50.210 --> 01:54:51.900
so it was pointless actually even going
3566
01:54:51.900 --> 01:54:54.702
for a walk because it would be more of a strug...
3567
01:54:54.702 --> 01:54:56.943
It would be more painful to walk in them
3568
01:54:56.943 --> 01:55:00.090
because they rubbing against your ankles
3569
01:55:00.090 --> 01:55:02.331
and your skin, and stuff, and make you bleed.
3570
01:55:02.331 --> 01:55:04.080
(chuckles) And actually going for the walk
3571
01:55:04.080 --> 01:55:05.443
is like pointless.
3572
01:55:06.440 --> 01:55:08.750
So, really we would actually kind of refuse,
3573
01:55:08.750 --> 01:55:10.860
but when we went to Camp Delta, they had
3574
01:55:10.860 --> 01:55:14.080
a bigger rec area built.
3575
01:55:14.080 --> 01:55:15.210
Initially, we was not allowed,
3576
01:55:15.210 --> 01:55:17.130
we was only allowed to walk, but later on,
3577
01:55:17.130 --> 01:55:17.963
then you was allowed to run.
3578
01:55:17.963 --> 01:55:20.090
Then next, obviously we was allowed to exercise,
3579
01:55:20.090 --> 01:55:22.840
but a year down the line then you can exercise,
3580
01:55:22.840 --> 01:55:23.673
so we used to exercise,
3581
01:55:23.673 --> 01:55:24.540
Did you ever move
3582
01:55:24.540 --> 01:55:27.510
to any other camp besides Camp Delta?
3583
01:55:27.510 --> 01:55:28.343
Nah.
3584
01:55:28.343 --> 01:55:29.805
No, so you had enough exercise
3585
01:55:29.805 --> 01:55:34.010
at Camp Delta to run, you said?
3586
01:55:34.010 --> 01:55:36.110
Well, you had a fairly big space
3587
01:55:36.110 --> 01:55:37.200
in terms of like...
3588
01:55:38.090 --> 01:55:39.342
Was it a caged area?
3589
01:55:39.342 --> 01:55:41.000
Yeah, it was a caged area, but then again,
3590
01:55:41.000 --> 01:55:42.130
if you're gonna exercise,
3591
01:55:42.130 --> 01:55:43.962
the floor is made of concrete, extremely hot.
3592
01:55:43.962 --> 01:55:46.270
You run on bare, with your bare feet,
3593
01:55:46.270 --> 01:55:47.103
you get blisters.
3594
01:55:47.103 --> 01:55:48.380
I used to always get blisters.
3595
01:55:48.380 --> 01:55:51.440
So, really you can't, you only can do certain
3596
01:55:51.440 --> 01:55:53.570
amounts of running, or a certain speed.
3597
01:55:53.570 --> 01:55:56.360
So, didn't really get no exercise
3598
01:55:56.360 --> 01:55:58.980
other than walking in a fast walk,
3599
01:55:58.980 --> 01:56:00.420
like power walking, you can call it.
3600
01:56:00.420 --> 01:56:01.253
And how often would
3601
01:56:01.253 --> 01:56:02.620
you get exercise?
3602
01:56:02.620 --> 01:56:05.570
First it was like 20 minutes twice a week,
3603
01:56:05.570 --> 01:56:07.160
then it changed in 2003 it changed
3604
01:56:07.160 --> 01:56:09.140
when General Miller came in power, it changed.
3605
01:56:09.140 --> 01:56:10.770
It was all on level program.
3606
01:56:10.770 --> 01:56:12.721
So, if you level one, you go to exercise
3607
01:56:12.721 --> 01:56:14.740
every day for half an hour.
3608
01:56:14.740 --> 01:56:15.573
If you're level two,
3609
01:56:15.573 --> 01:56:18.980
you get to exercise 20 minutes,
3610
01:56:18.980 --> 01:56:20.930
three times a week.
3611
01:56:20.930 --> 01:56:22.700
If you're level three, once a week
3612
01:56:22.700 --> 01:56:23.870
for 15 minutes.
3613
01:56:23.870 --> 01:56:25.607
If you're level four, you don't get to exercise.
3614
01:56:25.607 --> 01:56:26.457
And how do you determine
3615
01:56:26.457 --> 01:56:27.767
what level, how do they determine
3616
01:56:27.767 --> 01:56:28.857
what level you're on?
3617
01:56:28.857 --> 01:56:30.460
Your interrogator determines
3618
01:56:30.460 --> 01:56:32.510
how cooperative you are with intel,
3619
01:56:32.510 --> 01:56:33.730
and also your behavior.
3620
01:56:33.730 --> 01:56:34.970
Will your level change
3621
01:56:34.970 --> 01:56:35.803
daily, or weekly, or...
3622
01:56:35.803 --> 01:56:37.620
No, it'll probably change weekly.
3623
01:56:37.620 --> 01:56:39.430
It depends, sometimes you're level one.
3624
01:56:39.430 --> 01:56:41.970
Initially we started off to be level three,
3625
01:56:41.970 --> 01:56:43.710
then to two, then we dropped.
3626
01:56:43.710 --> 01:56:44.660
I dropped to level four
3627
01:56:44.660 --> 01:56:46.253
for many months, five months,
3628
01:56:47.246 --> 01:56:49.046
and then when I got out of isolation
3629
01:56:49.980 --> 01:56:51.090
when the allegation was dropped.
3630
01:56:51.090 --> 01:56:52.360
When they obviously realized that
3631
01:56:52.360 --> 01:56:54.610
it wasn't us cause we had more
3632
01:56:54.610 --> 01:56:57.860
than enough alibis to say that we were actually
3633
01:56:57.860 --> 01:56:58.960
in the UK at the time.
3634
01:57:01.312 --> 01:57:03.120
And they announced, the British government's
3635
01:57:03.120 --> 01:57:04.300
obviously they was having talks
3636
01:57:04.300 --> 01:57:05.133
with the Americans.
3637
01:57:05.133 --> 01:57:06.297
So, they obviously knew that
3638
01:57:06.297 --> 01:57:07.130
we were getting released.
3639
01:57:07.130 --> 01:57:08.620
So, I think because that was happening,
3640
01:57:08.620 --> 01:57:09.480
they knew that we were gonna go home.
3641
01:57:09.480 --> 01:57:11.120
So, their treatments changed,
3642
01:57:11.120 --> 01:57:12.763
and then we was put to level one.
3643
01:57:13.630 --> 01:57:15.030
So, for a short time
3644
01:57:15.030 --> 01:57:16.160
you were level one-
3645
01:57:16.160 --> 01:57:17.796
Three months, would say.
3646
01:57:17.796 --> 01:57:19.410
Earlier, you mentioned
3647
01:57:19.410 --> 01:57:24.230
that one of General Miller's changes was
3648
01:57:24.230 --> 01:57:25.700
he brought dogs in.
3649
01:57:25.700 --> 01:57:27.760
Did you actually see dogs in Guantanamo?
3650
01:57:27.760 --> 01:57:29.270
Yeah, the dog used to be...
3651
01:57:29.270 --> 01:57:32.310
They used to walk him up and down the...
3652
01:57:32.310 --> 01:57:34.142
They call it the (indistinct),
3653
01:57:34.142 --> 01:57:37.647
and in the blocks you have like a causeway.
3654
01:57:39.010 --> 01:57:39.843
Mm-hmm.
3655
01:57:39.843 --> 01:57:41.110
They would walk the dogs up and down,
3656
01:57:41.110 --> 01:57:42.133
very rare though, it's very rare,
3657
01:57:42.133 --> 01:57:44.500
but they would have dogs in the interrogation.
3658
01:57:44.500 --> 01:57:45.960
When you were in stressed positions,
3659
01:57:45.960 --> 01:57:47.553
they would bring the dogs in.
3660
01:57:47.553 --> 01:57:49.007
Would they be held by the...
3661
01:57:49.007 --> 01:57:49.907
They would be held back,
3662
01:57:49.907 --> 01:57:51.781
but they wouldn't have the...
3663
01:57:51.781 --> 01:57:52.920
Muzzles?
The muzzle,
3664
01:57:52.920 --> 01:57:54.260
they wouldn't have that on.
3665
01:57:54.260 --> 01:57:56.270
So, they were barking literally in your face,
3666
01:57:56.270 --> 01:57:58.290
where he's got the dog on the leash.
3667
01:57:58.290 --> 01:57:59.260
In Guantanamo?
3668
01:57:59.260 --> 01:58:00.736
Yeah, in Guantanamo, in interrogation.
3669
01:58:00.736 --> 01:58:01.569
While you were
3670
01:58:01.569 --> 01:58:02.402
in a stressed position,
3671
01:58:02.402 --> 01:58:03.235
someone would be holding a dog?
3672
01:58:03.235 --> 01:58:05.750
Yeah, occasionally, that would be for
3673
01:58:06.810 --> 01:58:09.590
something to like intimidate you.
3674
01:58:09.590 --> 01:58:10.710
Do you know if intimidated
3675
01:58:10.710 --> 01:58:12.113
any of the people?
3676
01:58:12.113 --> 01:58:13.153
(chuckles) It intimidated me.
3677
01:58:13.153 --> 01:58:13.986
(interviewer chuckles)
3678
01:58:13.986 --> 01:58:14.819
So, you have a rottweiler barking
3679
01:58:14.819 --> 01:58:19.130
like right in your face, it's kind of scary.
3680
01:58:19.130 --> 01:58:20.490
Now, I get scared of dogs walking
3681
01:58:20.490 --> 01:58:21.870
across the free road. (chuckles)
3682
01:58:21.870 --> 01:58:23.640
Cause sometimes they're just gonna go mad
3683
01:58:23.640 --> 01:58:25.670
and start chasing you, so.
3684
01:58:25.670 --> 01:58:27.890
Hmm, was there anything else
3685
01:58:27.890 --> 01:58:31.713
that General Miller introduced that we haven't-
3686
01:58:32.760 --> 01:58:35.330
Long standing, prolonged standing,
3687
01:58:35.330 --> 01:58:36.350
stressed positions.
3688
01:58:36.350 --> 01:58:37.183
Did you have
3689
01:58:37.183 --> 01:58:38.016
to do prolonged standing?
3690
01:58:38.016 --> 01:58:38.849
Nah, never did that.
3691
01:58:38.849 --> 01:58:39.682
But you heard of people who did?
3692
01:58:39.682 --> 01:58:40.520
Yeah.
3693
01:58:40.520 --> 01:58:42.340
Do you remember a situation like that,
3694
01:58:42.340 --> 01:58:43.916
or people just told you?
3695
01:58:43.916 --> 01:58:44.749
People just told me, yeah.
3696
01:58:44.749 --> 01:58:46.001
You had prolonged standing,
3697
01:58:46.001 --> 01:58:46.910
you had stressed position,
3698
01:58:46.910 --> 01:58:49.280
which was like short shackling, loud music,
3699
01:58:49.280 --> 01:58:51.640
strobe lights, the dogs,
3700
01:58:51.640 --> 01:58:53.363
hot and cold with the AC.
3701
01:58:54.467 --> 01:58:55.470
And the strobe lights,
3702
01:58:55.470 --> 01:58:57.098
how long would that go on?
3703
01:58:57.098 --> 01:58:59.703
That'll be on all day long when you meet that-
3704
01:58:59.703 --> 01:59:00.786
With the music, or-
3705
01:59:00.786 --> 01:59:02.970
With the music, with the music, so-
3706
01:59:02.970 --> 01:59:04.070
In your cell,
3707
01:59:04.070 --> 01:59:04.903
or in the interrogation room?
3708
01:59:04.903 --> 01:59:06.660
No, in the interrogation, yeah,
3709
01:59:06.660 --> 01:59:08.343
Nothing would happen to you sitting in your cell.
3710
01:59:08.343 --> 01:59:09.721
It'd all be in
3711
01:59:09.721 --> 01:59:10.554
the interrogation room?
3712
01:59:10.554 --> 01:59:11.387
It'll all be interrogation.
3713
01:59:11.387 --> 01:59:12.480
The only thing that would happen in your cell
3714
01:59:12.480 --> 01:59:14.603
is if you get earthed, that's the only thing
3715
01:59:14.603 --> 01:59:15.770
that happens in your cell.
3716
01:59:15.770 --> 01:59:16.603
Mm-hmm.
3717
01:59:16.603 --> 01:59:18.010
And sometimes you might get beaten up.
3718
01:59:18.010 --> 01:59:20.117
When you get earthed, you get beaten up.
3719
01:59:20.117 --> 01:59:21.250
Did you see anybody
3720
01:59:21.250 --> 01:59:24.840
get beaten up really badly, and something-
3721
01:59:24.840 --> 01:59:25.890
No, I heard of one guy
3722
01:59:25.890 --> 01:59:26.723
got beaten up, which I think
3723
01:59:26.723 --> 01:59:28.120
is already mentioned.
3724
01:59:28.120 --> 01:59:32.080
Juma from Bahrain was a Saudi now.
3725
01:59:32.080 --> 01:59:33.840
I've heard of him get beaten up.
3726
01:59:33.840 --> 01:59:36.370
I've seen detainees get earthed,
3727
01:59:36.370 --> 01:59:39.090
and physically manhandled to the extent
3728
01:59:39.090 --> 01:59:41.413
that you think well, you don't need
3729
01:59:41.413 --> 01:59:43.500
to treat him in that way.
3730
01:59:43.500 --> 01:59:45.790
I've seen people's heads being flushed
3731
01:59:45.790 --> 01:59:49.170
in the toilet while they're being earthed.
3732
01:59:49.170 --> 01:59:50.240
Oh, while they're being earthed.
3733
01:59:50.240 --> 01:59:51.073
Yeah, yeah.
3734
01:59:51.073 --> 01:59:51.906
Do you know what caused them
3735
01:59:51.906 --> 01:59:53.320
to be earthed, some of them?
3736
01:59:53.320 --> 01:59:54.780
Basically, misbehaving,
3737
01:59:54.780 --> 01:59:57.610
not cooperating with the soldiers
3738
02:00:00.900 --> 02:00:01.733
on the block.
3739
02:00:03.540 --> 02:00:07.080
If you didn't give back
3740
02:00:07.080 --> 02:00:09.850
the spoon after your chow, your food.
3741
02:00:09.850 --> 02:00:13.523
If you refused medicine, injections, especially.
3742
02:00:14.680 --> 02:00:15.513
Those reasons if you-
3743
02:00:15.513 --> 02:00:16.780
You saw someone's head
3744
02:00:16.780 --> 02:00:17.693
being flushed down the toilet?
3745
02:00:17.693 --> 02:00:19.140
That was quite common because
3746
02:00:19.140 --> 02:00:21.810
when they earth you, the actual space
3747
02:00:21.810 --> 02:00:23.830
is very small to walk.
3748
02:00:23.830 --> 02:00:25.240
So, when they're earthing you,
3749
02:00:25.240 --> 02:00:27.060
you always gonna...
3750
02:00:27.060 --> 02:00:28.520
The toilet areas, they're always there.
3751
02:00:28.520 --> 02:00:30.483
So, you're always gonna fall in that area
3752
02:00:30.483 --> 02:00:33.340
because you have the door, which is here,
3753
02:00:33.340 --> 02:00:35.560
for example, when I'm here.
3754
02:00:35.560 --> 02:00:39.430
At the back, which is about two and a half meters
3755
02:00:39.430 --> 02:00:41.870
is a sink, right next to the sink on the floor
3756
02:00:41.870 --> 02:00:43.030
there's a toilet.
3757
02:00:43.030 --> 02:00:45.170
So, from the doors to the toilet,
3758
02:00:45.170 --> 02:00:48.250
there's about two steps, literally two steps.
3759
02:00:48.250 --> 02:00:51.960
And on the side, the actual length
3760
02:00:51.960 --> 02:00:54.410
is about two, or three meters.
3761
02:00:54.410 --> 02:00:56.820
And the width is about also three meters,
3762
02:00:56.820 --> 02:00:58.100
but the width is shorter
3763
02:00:58.100 --> 02:01:00.980
because they've got a bunk elevated halfway,
3764
02:01:00.980 --> 02:01:02.790
which takes a meter.
3765
02:01:02.790 --> 02:01:04.580
So, really you've got a meter
3766
02:01:04.580 --> 02:01:07.140
by two and a half meter, three meters.
3767
02:01:07.140 --> 02:01:08.730
So, you can't really go to the left or right.
3768
02:01:08.730 --> 02:01:10.730
You only can go back and forth to the door.
3769
02:01:10.730 --> 02:01:11.763
So, if you're getting earthed,
3770
02:01:11.763 --> 02:01:13.830
it's a small space.
3771
02:01:13.830 --> 02:01:16.710
So, when they ram you with a shield,
3772
02:01:16.710 --> 02:01:18.280
you always gonna fall to the back,
3773
02:01:18.280 --> 02:01:19.310
and that's what the toilet is.
3774
02:01:19.310 --> 02:01:21.080
So, when you fall flat either on your back,
3775
02:01:21.080 --> 02:01:22.870
or on your stomach, your head's always
3776
02:01:22.870 --> 02:01:27.640
in the toilet, but it's like
3777
02:01:27.640 --> 02:01:29.053
a stainless steel toilet.
3778
02:01:30.380 --> 02:01:32.820
And the hole's obviously quite far down
3779
02:01:32.820 --> 02:01:35.350
where the water is, but there's a button.
3780
02:01:35.350 --> 02:01:39.640
When you flush it, the water comes, flushes it.
3781
02:01:39.640 --> 02:01:41.160
What they do, they put your face near the hole,
3782
02:01:41.160 --> 02:01:42.533
and they flush it.
3783
02:01:44.617 --> 02:01:46.047
They flush the toilet so the water builds up
3784
02:01:46.047 --> 02:01:48.030
and it covers all your face, your hair, whatever,
3785
02:01:48.030 --> 02:01:50.833
and that was something they would do on purpose.
3786
02:01:51.760 --> 02:01:52.593
And you've seen that happen?
3787
02:01:52.593 --> 02:01:54.520
Yeah, that happened to me, many people,
3788
02:01:54.520 --> 02:01:56.330
and they would pepper spray you.
3789
02:01:56.330 --> 02:01:57.330
Pepper spray would be very common.
3790
02:01:57.330 --> 02:01:59.160
Before they earth you, they pepper spray you.
3791
02:01:59.160 --> 02:02:00.767
There's a procedure of earthing.
3792
02:02:00.767 --> 02:02:04.190
They would ask you, ask you, ask you,
3793
02:02:04.190 --> 02:02:08.220
then they would tell the guard commander to come.
3794
02:02:08.220 --> 02:02:10.670
He would ask you, if you don't listen to him,
3795
02:02:10.670 --> 02:02:11.910
they called the lieutenant.
3796
02:02:11.910 --> 02:02:13.160
I think, then he would ask you,
3797
02:02:13.160 --> 02:02:14.470
or they would call the captain,
3798
02:02:14.470 --> 02:02:15.777
and he would ask you.
3799
02:02:15.777 --> 02:02:18.180
And if you don't comply the guard
3800
02:02:18.180 --> 02:02:20.750
would come out and the lieutenant, or the captain
3801
02:02:20.750 --> 02:02:23.220
would spray you first, then they would earth you.
3802
02:02:23.220 --> 02:02:26.080
Five guys got you with riot gear.
3803
02:02:27.523 --> 02:02:29.030
And then they take you away?
3804
02:02:29.030 --> 02:02:31.733
Yeah, and do whatever they want.
3805
02:02:33.240 --> 02:02:34.230
Could you describe
3806
02:02:34.230 --> 02:02:35.400
how you found out about
3807
02:02:35.400 --> 02:02:36.540
that you were gonna go home,
3808
02:02:36.540 --> 02:02:37.710
how that happened, and-
3809
02:02:37.710 --> 02:02:39.490
We found out initially by guards,
3810
02:02:39.490 --> 02:02:40.945
soldiers would come and say to us
3811
02:02:40.945 --> 02:02:44.130
that your names have been released in our news.
3812
02:02:44.130 --> 02:02:46.800
Some of you guys are gonna go home,
3813
02:02:46.800 --> 02:02:50.620
and I think they over hear it from
3814
02:02:50.620 --> 02:02:53.490
the intel people as well, so they talk,
3815
02:02:53.490 --> 02:02:54.560
and the word spreads.
3816
02:02:54.560 --> 02:02:56.093
Do you believe them?
3817
02:02:57.100 --> 02:02:59.100
At first, no, but I think...
3818
02:02:59.100 --> 02:03:01.020
Cause we was obviously we've been told
3819
02:03:01.020 --> 02:03:02.410
that we was gonna be released from day one.
3820
02:03:02.410 --> 02:03:03.330
So, like (chuckles) for two and half years,
3821
02:03:03.330 --> 02:03:04.480
you're going home next week.
3822
02:03:04.480 --> 02:03:05.390
Who was telling you that?
3823
02:03:05.390 --> 02:03:06.690
First of all, we was told actually
3824
02:03:06.690 --> 02:03:09.320
by the general, General Lennart,
3825
02:03:09.320 --> 02:03:11.170
who's a marine general.
3826
02:03:11.170 --> 02:03:12.710
He actually came to me and he said that
3827
02:03:12.710 --> 02:03:13.980
you will be the first one to go home
3828
02:03:13.980 --> 02:03:14.913
because you're British,
3829
02:03:14.913 --> 02:03:17.220
because of the relationship the countries have.
3830
02:03:17.220 --> 02:03:18.441
Do you know when
3831
02:03:18.441 --> 02:03:19.274
he told you that?
3832
02:03:20.350 --> 02:03:23.403
March, probably April, 2002.
3833
02:03:24.249 --> 02:03:25.470
Mm, that early.
3834
02:03:25.470 --> 02:03:29.030
Yeah, I was not even there for like, a month
3835
02:03:29.899 --> 02:03:30.732
and that's what he told me.
3836
02:03:30.732 --> 02:03:32.340
Because there was the riots that happened,
3837
02:03:32.340 --> 02:03:33.840
the first hunger strike took place
3838
02:03:33.840 --> 02:03:36.140
because a soldier kicked the Quran,
3839
02:03:36.140 --> 02:03:39.660
and I actually was there when it happened.
3840
02:03:39.660 --> 02:03:42.851
And it was the first riot that took place,
3841
02:03:42.851 --> 02:03:43.838
and it was a hunger strike,
3842
02:03:43.838 --> 02:03:44.770
and they was trying to calm it down.
3843
02:03:44.770 --> 02:03:47.760
There's one guy who spoke very good English,
3844
02:03:47.760 --> 02:03:49.160
and he was an Arab.
3845
02:03:49.160 --> 02:03:51.650
So, Lennart would come down and speak
3846
02:03:51.650 --> 02:03:54.470
to the individual, and he was...
3847
02:03:54.470 --> 02:03:57.070
Personally, I think, well he was an okay general.
3848
02:03:57.070 --> 02:03:58.123
He was okay.
3849
02:04:01.064 --> 02:04:03.010
He came to me and he was talking to me.
3850
02:04:03.010 --> 02:04:06.050
He gave me a sweet, so usually generals
3851
02:04:06.050 --> 02:04:08.480
don't actually come and talk to anybody.
3852
02:04:08.480 --> 02:04:09.337
He was the only general that actually came
3853
02:04:09.337 --> 02:04:12.347
and spoke to the detainees.
3854
02:04:12.347 --> 02:04:15.730
And he actually used to hand out sweets, toffees
3855
02:04:15.730 --> 02:04:17.690
to detainees, which was quite...
3856
02:04:17.690 --> 02:04:19.030
Well, to me at the time,
3857
02:04:19.030 --> 02:04:21.180
it looked pretty normal because like to me,
3858
02:04:22.070 --> 02:04:22.960
I didn't know what a general was.
3859
02:04:22.960 --> 02:04:23.793
I never knew what a colonel was.
3860
02:04:23.793 --> 02:04:26.960
I never knew because military was not part
3861
02:04:26.960 --> 02:04:28.840
of my upbringing.
3862
02:04:28.840 --> 02:04:30.446
So, I didn't have a clue.
3863
02:04:30.446 --> 02:04:32.650
So, he told me that we gonna go home
3864
02:04:32.650 --> 02:04:35.010
within six weeks of being there.
3865
02:04:35.010 --> 02:04:36.950
So, then eventually when he left,
3866
02:04:36.950 --> 02:04:38.750
others came in and every so often,
3867
02:04:38.750 --> 02:04:40.400
someone would come and say, the interrogator
3868
02:04:40.400 --> 02:04:41.400
would say, "Oh, you're gonna home,
3869
02:04:41.400 --> 02:04:42.233
you're gonna home."
3870
02:04:42.233 --> 02:04:43.170
And after about seven, eight months,
3871
02:04:43.170 --> 02:04:46.290
I just gave up hope, they're all full of shit.
3872
02:04:46.290 --> 02:04:47.410
Then the last three months,
3873
02:04:47.410 --> 02:04:49.300
when things start changing for us,
3874
02:04:49.300 --> 02:04:53.310
we got level one, films, six meals a day,
3875
02:04:53.310 --> 02:04:54.973
that kind of gave it away.
3876
02:04:55.920 --> 02:04:56.950
And then what happened?
3877
02:04:56.950 --> 02:04:59.010
How did it finally happen that you
3878
02:04:59.010 --> 02:05:01.012
were officially told you were going home?
3879
02:05:01.012 --> 02:05:02.140
We was not actually officially told.
3880
02:05:02.140 --> 02:05:03.620
We was actually isolated
3881
02:05:03.620 --> 02:05:04.990
for the last week of our...
3882
02:05:04.990 --> 02:05:06.370
Before we got released.
3883
02:05:06.370 --> 02:05:07.203
In isolation?
3884
02:05:07.203 --> 02:05:08.036
Yeah.
3885
02:05:08.036 --> 02:05:08.869
Block.
3886
02:05:08.869 --> 02:05:09.791
Yeah.
3887
02:05:09.791 --> 02:05:10.624
Why?
3888
02:05:10.624 --> 02:05:11.457
Well, it's just procedure.
3889
02:05:11.457 --> 02:05:12.290
It's the normal procedure
3890
02:05:12.290 --> 02:05:13.123
that they do. (chuckles)
3891
02:05:13.123 --> 02:05:14.290
Everybody who leaves, they have to go
3892
02:05:14.290 --> 02:05:15.263
through their isolation first. (chuckles)
3893
02:05:15.263 --> 02:05:16.580
It's like a punishment,
3894
02:05:16.580 --> 02:05:18.870
last minute punishment before you go home.
3895
02:05:18.870 --> 02:05:19.703
So, we went to isolation,
3896
02:05:19.703 --> 02:05:21.100
stayed there for a week.
3897
02:05:21.100 --> 02:05:22.690
The last day, that night they came,
3898
02:05:22.690 --> 02:05:24.900
they gave us a new set of clothes, jeans,
3899
02:05:24.900 --> 02:05:27.030
some slippers, or pumps I think it was,
3900
02:05:27.030 --> 02:05:30.300
and a T-shirt, and a jacket, or a jumper.
3901
02:05:30.300 --> 02:05:32.727
Then they took us out, tied us up,
3902
02:05:32.727 --> 02:05:34.293
normal procedure, took us out.
3903
02:05:35.260 --> 02:05:37.250
They tried to make us sign some papers
3904
02:05:37.250 --> 02:05:38.913
before we left, but we refused.
3905
02:05:39.990 --> 02:05:41.324
Do you know what the papers said?
3906
02:05:41.324 --> 02:05:42.310
Basically said that we was arrested
3907
02:05:42.310 --> 02:05:44.320
because we was part of Al-Qaeda and Taliban.
3908
02:05:44.320 --> 02:05:47.300
And if ever in the future
3909
02:05:47.300 --> 02:05:50.310
we come to know that you were part...
3910
02:05:50.310 --> 02:05:52.810
If you are a part or affiliated
3911
02:05:52.810 --> 02:05:55.160
with any terrorist groups in the world,
3912
02:05:55.160 --> 02:05:57.400
we have the power to come and arrest you
3913
02:05:57.400 --> 02:05:59.340
wherever you are in the world.
3914
02:05:59.340 --> 02:06:00.410
That's what the paper said.
3915
02:06:00.410 --> 02:06:01.730
So, when you refused to sign it,
3916
02:06:01.730 --> 02:06:02.708
what did they say?
3917
02:06:02.708 --> 02:06:03.541
They said that you will spend the rest
3918
02:06:03.541 --> 02:06:05.013
of your time in Guantanamo.
3919
02:06:06.071 --> 02:06:08.520
We said, "Fine, that's cool."
3920
02:06:08.520 --> 02:06:11.780
Cause basically, them saying that we agree,
3921
02:06:11.780 --> 02:06:12.860
the reason why we was in Guantanamo,
3922
02:06:12.860 --> 02:06:15.790
and we said, "No, I'd rather stay here."
3923
02:06:15.790 --> 02:06:17.220
But then a couple hours later we seen
3924
02:06:17.220 --> 02:06:18.570
the British police, they came,
3925
02:06:18.570 --> 02:06:21.400
and that was the main giveaway,
3926
02:06:21.400 --> 02:06:22.670
because all throughout as I said,
3927
02:06:22.670 --> 02:06:25.233
we've always seen MI5, or the home office,
3928
02:06:26.165 --> 02:06:26.998
and this time it was actually
3929
02:06:26.998 --> 02:06:29.270
the police officers came in the police uniform.
3930
02:06:29.270 --> 02:06:31.360
So, we thought, okay, something's happening.
3931
02:06:31.360 --> 02:06:34.822
So, that night we got taken to the...
3932
02:06:34.822 --> 02:06:35.655
You know them school buses,
3933
02:06:35.655 --> 02:06:37.125
the American yellow school buses?
3934
02:06:37.125 --> 02:06:38.370
It was one of them.
3935
02:06:38.370 --> 02:06:39.710
We got into one of them,
3936
02:06:39.710 --> 02:06:41.690
then we drove to the airport,
3937
02:06:41.690 --> 02:06:43.050
which was quite funny.
3938
02:06:43.050 --> 02:06:44.060
It was hilarious.
3939
02:06:44.060 --> 02:06:45.553
Why?
3940
02:06:45.553 --> 02:06:46.386
It was like a movie.
3941
02:06:46.386 --> 02:06:51.386
It's like being in a military Rambo movie.
3942
02:06:51.640 --> 02:06:53.523
They got the bus to the runway.
3943
02:06:54.370 --> 02:06:55.770
You had the plane about
3944
02:06:57.400 --> 02:06:59.563
200 meters away from where the bus parked.
3945
02:07:00.720 --> 02:07:04.440
Then you had like, the plane
3946
02:07:04.440 --> 02:07:05.610
is for example, here.
3947
02:07:05.610 --> 02:07:08.130
We're here, right?
3948
02:07:08.130 --> 02:07:10.750
So, we've gotta walk 200 meters to the plane.
3949
02:07:10.750 --> 02:07:12.940
All the British police officers are sitting,
3950
02:07:12.940 --> 02:07:16.590
standing by this plane, and it's an RF plane,
3951
02:07:16.590 --> 02:07:18.293
a military plane from the UK.
3952
02:07:19.200 --> 02:07:22.030
And you had on this side of the Americans,
3953
02:07:22.030 --> 02:07:25.560
all the generals and officials,
3954
02:07:25.560 --> 02:07:27.150
and probably congressman cause some
3955
02:07:27.150 --> 02:07:28.530
of them were in their plain uni...
3956
02:07:28.530 --> 02:07:30.200
Plain clothes, so they could
3957
02:07:30.200 --> 02:07:31.950
be congressmen, or whoever.
3958
02:07:31.950 --> 02:07:34.930
And they had from here to there,
3959
02:07:34.930 --> 02:07:38.257
on this side and on that side, they're soldiers.
3960
02:07:38.257 --> 02:07:41.310
And they had about one soldier,
3961
02:07:41.310 --> 02:07:42.740
every three meters.
3962
02:07:42.740 --> 02:07:44.330
So, a soldier, soldier, soldier, soldier,
3963
02:07:44.330 --> 02:07:47.417
soldier, soldier, and soldiers across there.
3964
02:07:47.417 --> 02:07:48.420
And we had to walk in between
3965
02:07:48.420 --> 02:07:52.797
and they all had the M16's drawn on us.
3966
02:07:52.797 --> 02:07:55.380
As we was walking, marched by two guys,
3967
02:07:55.380 --> 02:07:57.930
cuffed up like animals.
3968
02:07:57.930 --> 02:08:00.340
All the guns were on us and they was moving,
3969
02:08:00.340 --> 02:08:01.640
and moving, and moving as we was walking
3970
02:08:01.640 --> 02:08:02.473
to the plane.
3971
02:08:02.473 --> 02:08:05.460
And I was thinking, how ridiculous is this?
3972
02:08:05.460 --> 02:08:06.900
This is like, insane.
3973
02:08:06.900 --> 02:08:09.270
And the British were actually, the cops,
3974
02:08:09.270 --> 02:08:11.620
the British cops, they even found it funny.
3975
02:08:11.620 --> 02:08:12.880
They even was taking the piss.
3976
02:08:12.880 --> 02:08:15.007
When we got on the plane, they go,
3977
02:08:15.007 --> 02:08:16.090
"That was a drama."
3978
02:08:16.090 --> 02:08:18.700
That was like a Hollywood movie,
3979
02:08:18.700 --> 02:08:19.980
We could have just done a shot
3980
02:08:19.980 --> 02:08:22.782
for Sylvester Stallone's new movie.
3981
02:08:22.782 --> 02:08:23.973
(interviewer chuckles)
3982
02:08:23.973 --> 02:08:24.806
It's just madness.
3983
02:08:24.806 --> 02:08:26.483
It was so bizarre, I thought,
3984
02:08:27.490 --> 02:08:30.620
how many people do you need to have be there
3985
02:08:30.620 --> 02:08:33.210
with guns for five guys who's going home?
3986
02:08:33.210 --> 02:08:36.020
Who are unarmed, who are chained like animals?
3987
02:08:36.020 --> 02:08:37.990
How many do you really need?
3988
02:08:37.990 --> 02:08:40.890
I mean, it was just like a stage show,
3989
02:08:40.890 --> 02:08:44.017
a road show that was put on for the...
3990
02:08:44.017 --> 02:08:45.146
For the higher ups.
3991
02:08:45.146 --> 02:08:45.979
You know what I mean?
3992
02:08:45.979 --> 02:08:47.530
It was like, ridiculous,
3993
02:08:47.530 --> 02:08:48.560
and I couldn't stop laughing.
3994
02:08:48.560 --> 02:08:51.100
I got there, we got to the police officer,
3995
02:08:51.100 --> 02:08:53.200
the British guy, and he read my rights out.
3996
02:08:53.200 --> 02:08:54.903
He said, basically,
3997
02:08:56.390 --> 02:08:59.180
we're gonna transfer you back to the UK.
3998
02:08:59.180 --> 02:09:01.770
If you have any problems, please do let us know.
3999
02:09:01.770 --> 02:09:02.800
There's refreshments on the board,
4000
02:09:02.800 --> 02:09:05.060
blah, blah, blah, just being nice to me.
4001
02:09:05.060 --> 02:09:07.970
And obviously, we've been in a three piece suit,
4002
02:09:07.970 --> 02:09:09.350
and the police officer goes
4003
02:09:09.350 --> 02:09:11.710
to both guys, un-cuff him.
4004
02:09:11.710 --> 02:09:14.680
And they both look at the other,
4005
02:09:14.680 --> 02:09:17.100
like as if they miss heard something,
4006
02:09:17.100 --> 02:09:19.380
and the copper, the British guy
4007
02:09:19.380 --> 02:09:21.519
goes, "Un-cuff him."
4008
02:09:21.519 --> 02:09:22.887
And they go...
4009
02:09:22.887 --> 02:09:25.510
Un-cuff him, but why?
4010
02:09:25.510 --> 02:09:27.110
They go, "Because we're taking over,
4011
02:09:27.110 --> 02:09:28.380
so un-cuff him."
4012
02:09:28.380 --> 02:09:31.110
So, they presumed they're gonna put
4013
02:09:31.110 --> 02:09:33.980
their own cuffs on, so they opened my cuff,
4014
02:09:33.980 --> 02:09:36.090
and obviously I had to put my hand on my head,
4015
02:09:36.090 --> 02:09:37.340
interlock my fingers.
4016
02:09:37.340 --> 02:09:38.500
And they're like, one was holding
4017
02:09:38.500 --> 02:09:40.820
it really tight, the other one's got my shoulder,
4018
02:09:40.820 --> 02:09:42.870
squeezing my shoulder, making sure I don't...
4019
02:09:42.870 --> 02:09:46.550
One's got my collar, holding it as not to move,
4020
02:09:46.550 --> 02:09:48.250
and then they were squaring off
4021
02:09:48.250 --> 02:09:49.860
just in case I move or something.
4022
02:09:49.860 --> 02:09:51.170
They take everything, take all my shackles off
4023
02:09:51.170 --> 02:09:53.210
and they throw the shackles a bit behind
4024
02:09:53.210 --> 02:09:54.910
so I don't get reach of it.
4025
02:09:54.910 --> 02:09:58.280
And then they're waiting for the police officer,
4026
02:09:58.280 --> 02:09:59.113
the British police officer
4027
02:09:59.113 --> 02:10:01.317
to cuff me, and they...
4028
02:10:01.317 --> 02:10:04.380
And they had like an awkward silence
4029
02:10:04.380 --> 02:10:07.620
of two minutes between looks them exchanging
4030
02:10:07.620 --> 02:10:10.070
and I'm standing there laughing my head off.
4031
02:10:10.070 --> 02:10:12.405
Cause I know they're not gonna cuff me,
4032
02:10:12.405 --> 02:10:13.940
and I had this feeling they're not gonna cuff me.
4033
02:10:13.940 --> 02:10:15.370
I'm just laughing, I'm just smiling
4034
02:10:15.370 --> 02:10:16.470
at the police officer.
4035
02:10:16.470 --> 02:10:18.860
And he's also looking at me thinking,
4036
02:10:18.860 --> 02:10:20.900
why aren't they letting him go?
4037
02:10:20.900 --> 02:10:23.110
Why are they holding him like that for?
4038
02:10:23.110 --> 02:10:26.757
And he's not saying anything, then the guards go,
4039
02:10:26.757 --> 02:10:27.590
"Aren't you gonna cuff him?"
4040
02:10:27.590 --> 02:10:29.190
No, he goes, "No."
4041
02:10:29.190 --> 02:10:31.608
He goes, "Why would you cuff him for?" (chuckles)
4042
02:10:31.608 --> 02:10:34.157
I couldn't stop laughing, and the guy goes,
4043
02:10:34.157 --> 02:10:35.040
"Oh, so you're not gonna cuff him."
4044
02:10:35.040 --> 02:10:37.833
So, what they did, one guy moved back,
4045
02:10:37.833 --> 02:10:40.627
and they both pushed me forward, so I went flying
4046
02:10:40.627 --> 02:10:41.677
into the police officer.
4047
02:10:41.677 --> 02:10:43.500
So, just in case I don't turn around,
4048
02:10:43.500 --> 02:10:45.820
or smack him one, it was like madness,
4049
02:10:45.820 --> 02:10:47.320
and the police officer just laughed.
4050
02:10:47.320 --> 02:10:49.640
And he goes, "Just walk on the plane."
4051
02:10:49.640 --> 02:10:50.832
So, I walked on the plane.
4052
02:10:50.832 --> 02:10:52.750
That was my first time I actually walked
4053
02:10:52.750 --> 02:10:56.040
without any chains, and it felt really hard
4054
02:10:56.040 --> 02:10:58.880
taking footsteps, it looked very odd.
4055
02:10:58.880 --> 02:11:00.580
So, I went to the plane, I sat down
4056
02:11:00.580 --> 02:11:02.180
and it was an RF plane.
4057
02:11:02.180 --> 02:11:05.770
It was like, all done up because we
4058
02:11:05.770 --> 02:11:07.900
was being brought home, so they had cameras
4059
02:11:07.900 --> 02:11:08.733
right in front of us.
4060
02:11:08.733 --> 02:11:11.130
They had two officers sitting beside me.
4061
02:11:11.130 --> 02:11:12.560
They had two officers in front of me,
4062
02:11:12.560 --> 02:11:14.150
and they were just being very friendly.
4063
02:11:14.150 --> 02:11:15.230
They offered us a lot of food.
4064
02:11:15.230 --> 02:11:16.860
We had chocolates and crisps,
4065
02:11:16.860 --> 02:11:18.820
and the foreign office guy was there as well.
4066
02:11:18.820 --> 02:11:19.660
The guy who used to come quite
4067
02:11:19.660 --> 02:11:21.490
on a regular basis to come and see us.
4068
02:11:21.490 --> 02:11:22.323
And what he said to us,
4069
02:11:22.323 --> 02:11:25.860
"When you get home, make sure you tell the press
4070
02:11:25.860 --> 02:11:28.107
that the British treated you right."
4071
02:11:29.000 --> 02:11:30.922
I looked at him for, are you having a laugh?
4072
02:11:30.922 --> 02:11:31.755
(interviewer chuckles)
4073
02:11:31.755 --> 02:11:32.840
You must be joking.
4074
02:11:32.840 --> 02:11:34.080
Well, I go, "What did you do for me
4075
02:11:34.080 --> 02:11:35.320
for the last two and a half years?"
4076
02:11:35.320 --> 02:11:37.060
You didn't do jack.
4077
02:11:37.060 --> 02:11:38.930
You couldn't even increase the food, man.
4078
02:11:38.930 --> 02:11:40.120
The proportion of the food.
4079
02:11:40.120 --> 02:11:41.420
If you increased that,
4080
02:11:41.420 --> 02:11:43.240
I would say you done something.
4081
02:11:43.240 --> 02:11:44.073
Do you know what I mean?
4082
02:11:44.073 --> 02:11:44.950
But they didn't do nothing.
4083
02:11:44.950 --> 02:11:48.530
So, go, "Don't expect any good remarks,
4084
02:11:48.530 --> 02:11:50.860
or anything good to come out of my mouth
4085
02:11:50.860 --> 02:11:52.780
about the British government."
4086
02:11:52.780 --> 02:11:54.400
So, and then basically we (indistinct),
4087
02:11:54.400 --> 02:11:57.410
soon as we flew over we actually entered
4088
02:11:57.410 --> 02:11:58.713
the British airspace.
4089
02:11:59.750 --> 02:12:01.083
That's when they came in and gave, told us,
4090
02:12:01.083 --> 02:12:02.870
that we was actually being arrested
4091
02:12:02.870 --> 02:12:06.452
under the British Terrorism Act 2000.
4092
02:12:06.452 --> 02:12:07.540
And what happened then?
4093
02:12:07.540 --> 02:12:08.790
They took us to
4094
02:12:08.790 --> 02:12:10.640
the police station, Paddington Green.
4095
02:12:12.166 --> 02:12:14.680
They didn't cuff us, or nothing like that.
4096
02:12:14.680 --> 02:12:18.027
I think that was because of who we were,
4097
02:12:18.027 --> 02:12:19.800
and they decided that they're not gonna cuff us,
4098
02:12:19.800 --> 02:12:20.730
or nothing like that.
4099
02:12:20.730 --> 02:12:21.563
But they said they were gonna
4100
02:12:21.563 --> 02:12:26.563
have five police officers per detainee.
4101
02:12:26.640 --> 02:12:28.260
So, they took us to the police station
4102
02:12:28.260 --> 02:12:31.017
and we just checked in as,
4103
02:12:31.017 --> 02:12:35.060
you just fill your names, and we were taken
4104
02:12:35.060 --> 02:12:36.010
to one cell.
4105
02:12:40.821 --> 02:12:45.730
Taken to a cell, and I was there for about a day.
4106
02:12:45.730 --> 02:12:48.613
That same night I was interrogated by the MI5.
4107
02:12:50.050 --> 02:12:51.220
I was given my lawyer.
4108
02:12:51.220 --> 02:12:53.643
So, for the first time in two and a half years,
4109
02:12:53.643 --> 02:12:54.800
I was actually given a lawyer,
4110
02:12:54.800 --> 02:12:55.880
but that lawyer was actually appointed
4111
02:12:55.880 --> 02:12:56.890
by my father.
4112
02:12:56.890 --> 02:12:59.966
So, he actually met me in that prison,
4113
02:12:59.966 --> 02:13:02.250
in Paddington Green.
4114
02:13:02.250 --> 02:13:04.370
We went to, he basically...
4115
02:13:04.370 --> 02:13:06.840
We went to a consultation room, spoke,
4116
02:13:06.840 --> 02:13:08.600
and he basically, don't answer nothing.
4117
02:13:08.600 --> 02:13:10.330
He goes, "You don't need to speak,
4118
02:13:10.330 --> 02:13:12.110
just say no comment all the way through."
4119
02:13:12.110 --> 02:13:14.230
So, I went to interrogation,
4120
02:13:14.230 --> 02:13:15.610
and they asked me all these questions,
4121
02:13:15.610 --> 02:13:17.060
name, no comment, no comment, no comment,
4122
02:13:17.060 --> 02:13:18.150
all that through.
4123
02:13:18.150 --> 02:13:19.610
Then I went again, second time around,
4124
02:13:19.610 --> 02:13:21.130
and again I went, "No comment."
4125
02:13:21.130 --> 02:13:22.530
Took my fingerprints and took some photos
4126
02:13:22.530 --> 02:13:23.620
and stuff, normal procedure
4127
02:13:23.620 --> 02:13:24.890
for the police station.
4128
02:13:24.890 --> 02:13:27.557
And about 36 hours later, they said,
4129
02:13:27.557 --> 02:13:28.557
"You're free to go."
4130
02:13:29.670 --> 02:13:30.503
And that was it?
4131
02:13:30.503 --> 02:13:32.257
And that was it really, yeah.
4132
02:13:35.430 --> 02:13:36.290
Did your opinion
4133
02:13:36.290 --> 02:13:39.830
of the Americans change from the time
4134
02:13:39.830 --> 02:13:42.064
before you were arrested to when you-
4135
02:13:42.064 --> 02:13:42.954
No, I don't think so,
4136
02:13:42.954 --> 02:13:43.787
because if my opinion had changed,
4137
02:13:43.787 --> 02:13:45.182
then I wouldn't have had-
4138
02:13:45.182 --> 02:13:49.066
(phone rings loudly)
4139
02:13:49.066 --> 02:13:51.337
(Ruhal chuckles)
4140
02:13:51.337 --> 02:13:52.170
You wanna get it?
4141
02:13:52.170 --> 02:13:53.003
We're almost finished, (indistinct).
4142
02:13:53.003 --> 02:13:53.836
She's good.
4143
02:13:53.836 --> 02:13:54.669
She's got it upstairs.
Okay.
4144
02:13:54.669 --> 02:13:55.502
Yeah she'll get it.
4145
02:13:55.502 --> 02:13:56.335
Okay.
4146
02:13:56.335 --> 02:13:57.340
Yeah, I think...
4147
02:13:58.417 --> 02:13:59.340
I don't think my opinion has changed
4148
02:13:59.340 --> 02:14:02.220
about Americans, American people,
4149
02:14:02.220 --> 02:14:07.220
because if it had,
4150
02:14:07.350 --> 02:14:08.450
then it would have changed
4151
02:14:08.450 --> 02:14:10.350
my opinion while I was in Guantanamo,
4152
02:14:10.350 --> 02:14:12.670
but obviously I've made good friends
4153
02:14:12.670 --> 02:14:15.533
in Guantanamo with the American soldiers.
4154
02:14:17.880 --> 02:14:20.320
So many soldiers were so nice to me.
4155
02:14:20.320 --> 02:14:22.030
So, my opinion about the people,
4156
02:14:22.030 --> 02:14:23.210
individuals never changed.
4157
02:14:23.210 --> 02:14:24.190
Obviously about the government
4158
02:14:24.190 --> 02:14:26.470
and its policies,
4159
02:14:26.470 --> 02:14:27.910
especially its foreign policies,
4160
02:14:27.910 --> 02:14:31.020
obviously I don't feel the way
4161
02:14:31.020 --> 02:14:32.120
I used to feel before.
4162
02:14:33.420 --> 02:14:34.770
No, I would love to go to America,
4163
02:14:34.770 --> 02:14:36.490
even till today.
4164
02:14:36.490 --> 02:14:38.183
If I had a chance to go to the US,
4165
02:14:38.183 --> 02:14:40.450
I would love to go, but obviously,
4166
02:14:40.450 --> 02:14:43.433
I'm on the no fly list.
4167
02:14:43.433 --> 02:14:46.110
So, I can't actually get a plane to America
4168
02:14:46.110 --> 02:14:48.250
because I was told by the FBI if I ever
4169
02:14:48.250 --> 02:14:49.987
try to go to America then I would be arrested
4170
02:14:49.987 --> 02:14:50.820
and I would be treated
4171
02:14:50.820 --> 02:14:51.830
much worse than Guantanamo.
4172
02:14:51.830 --> 02:14:53.120
When did the FBI tell you that?
4173
02:14:53.120 --> 02:14:54.880
Just before we left, about a week or two
4174
02:14:54.880 --> 02:14:56.430
before we left.
4175
02:14:56.430 --> 02:15:01.247
So, yeah, we've not tried to go to America yet.
4176
02:15:01.247 --> 02:15:02.287
I wouldn't mind to go to America,
4177
02:15:02.287 --> 02:15:06.440
but if I can get some kind of clearance
4178
02:15:06.440 --> 02:15:07.824
to say it's okay to go.
4179
02:15:07.824 --> 02:15:09.200
Because obviously, the new administration's
4180
02:15:09.200 --> 02:15:11.963
come in, so they may be more lenient,
4181
02:15:13.040 --> 02:15:14.982
but I doubt it somehow they'll let us in.
4182
02:15:14.982 --> 02:15:17.459
Because the FBI and the CIA have...
4183
02:15:17.459 --> 02:15:20.280
Have a bit of an influence over
4184
02:15:20.280 --> 02:15:21.113
the government as well.
4185
02:15:21.113 --> 02:15:22.670
So, if they obviously say no,
4186
02:15:22.670 --> 02:15:24.420
so then the government will say no.
4187
02:15:26.680 --> 02:15:29.642
But no, the people, no in my opinion
4188
02:15:29.642 --> 02:15:30.475
it hasn't changed.
4189
02:15:30.475 --> 02:15:31.625
I still watch American films.
4190
02:15:31.625 --> 02:15:32.515
(interviewer chuckles)
4191
02:15:32.515 --> 02:15:34.432
Still go to cinemas and watch Transformers
4192
02:15:34.432 --> 02:15:35.265
(interviewer chuckles)
4193
02:15:35.265 --> 02:15:36.850
three, I watched that.
4194
02:15:36.850 --> 02:15:38.230
Do you have a different opinion
4195
02:15:38.230 --> 02:15:39.670
about the British government
4196
02:15:39.670 --> 02:15:40.843
from before and after?
4197
02:15:42.150 --> 02:15:42.983
Yeah, I do.
4198
02:15:42.983 --> 02:15:44.240
I mean, obviously being a British...
4199
02:15:44.240 --> 02:15:47.070
Being born and raised in this country,
4200
02:15:47.070 --> 02:15:50.150
you feel you're part of this society,
4201
02:15:50.150 --> 02:15:52.520
and part of this culture.
4202
02:15:52.520 --> 02:15:55.750
But being in Guantanamo and then we came out,
4203
02:15:55.750 --> 02:15:58.730
and then the negative feedback that we got
4204
02:15:58.730 --> 02:16:00.840
from the press, and the government.
4205
02:16:00.840 --> 02:16:02.750
Until this day they haven't cleared our name.
4206
02:16:02.750 --> 02:16:03.990
It kind of makes you feel like
4207
02:16:03.990 --> 02:16:05.150
a second class citizen.
4208
02:16:05.150 --> 02:16:06.373
Like obviously, we are.
4209
02:16:07.886 --> 02:16:09.623
No matter how much we try to integrate
4210
02:16:09.623 --> 02:16:13.110
into society, we will never be the same
4211
02:16:13.110 --> 02:16:17.030
as John, or Paul Smith.
4212
02:16:17.030 --> 02:16:18.703
We'll never be the same because first of all,
4213
02:16:18.703 --> 02:16:21.040
even if I change my name to a white name,
4214
02:16:21.040 --> 02:16:22.220
I'm still gonna be brown.
4215
02:16:22.220 --> 02:16:23.540
No matter what happens, no matter how much
4216
02:16:23.540 --> 02:16:24.373
I try to change myself,
4217
02:16:24.373 --> 02:16:26.102
just like Michael Jackson.
4218
02:16:26.102 --> 02:16:26.935
(interviewer laughs)
4219
02:16:26.935 --> 02:16:27.768
No matter how much he tried to change himself,
4220
02:16:27.768 --> 02:16:29.380
he was always black.
4221
02:16:29.380 --> 02:16:30.213
It's the same.
4222
02:16:30.213 --> 02:16:31.110
No matter how much we try to integrate
4223
02:16:31.110 --> 02:16:34.028
in society, the government, the people
4224
02:16:34.028 --> 02:16:35.095
won't let us.
4225
02:16:35.095 --> 02:16:37.080
We're supposed to be living in the 21st century.
4226
02:16:37.080 --> 02:16:40.655
That's moving forward and they see...
4227
02:16:40.655 --> 02:16:41.870
They don't see the difference between color,
4228
02:16:41.870 --> 02:16:44.600
but the color factor will always remain.
4229
02:16:44.600 --> 02:16:46.420
Especially the religious barriers
4230
02:16:46.420 --> 02:16:48.540
will always remain no matter how much
4231
02:16:48.540 --> 02:16:50.410
we live next to each other.
4232
02:16:50.410 --> 02:16:52.152
My neighbors a white,
4233
02:16:52.152 --> 02:16:53.100
but it's just one of them things.
4234
02:16:53.100 --> 02:16:55.150
Everyone, when things happen like 9/11,
4235
02:16:55.150 --> 02:16:57.730
everyone always goes, they always withdraw back
4236
02:16:57.730 --> 02:17:00.708
to their own caves, you can call it.
4237
02:17:00.708 --> 02:17:01.541
Do you know what I mean?
4238
02:17:01.541 --> 02:17:03.230
Because that's what they know,
4239
02:17:03.230 --> 02:17:04.950
and it's just human nature.
4240
02:17:04.950 --> 02:17:07.450
And we will never be accepted as part
4241
02:17:07.450 --> 02:17:09.730
of this society fully.
4242
02:17:09.730 --> 02:17:11.940
I don't think, and I don't...
4243
02:17:11.940 --> 02:17:12.773
I don't like the British government
4244
02:17:12.773 --> 02:17:13.860
because they haven't done anything
4245
02:17:13.860 --> 02:17:16.300
to clear my name, because obviously,
4246
02:17:16.300 --> 02:17:18.900
I can't get a job for that fact.
4247
02:17:18.900 --> 02:17:23.090
Cause when I go to get a job and they know
4248
02:17:23.090 --> 02:17:25.320
who I am, then they obviously know.
4249
02:17:25.320 --> 02:17:27.010
Employers (indistinct) know what's happened,
4250
02:17:27.010 --> 02:17:29.957
it's a massive story, and people know,
4251
02:17:29.957 --> 02:17:31.810
and they've not cleared our names.
4252
02:17:31.810 --> 02:17:32.710
So, it's hard to get a job because
4253
02:17:32.710 --> 02:17:35.070
of that reason, because we're still classed
4254
02:17:35.070 --> 02:17:37.630
as suspected terrorists roaming
4255
02:17:37.630 --> 02:17:39.430
the streets of UK.
4256
02:17:39.430 --> 02:17:42.690
And Tony Blair was asked once by a news reporter
4257
02:17:42.690 --> 02:17:45.270
at a conference they did many years ago,
4258
02:17:45.270 --> 02:17:46.460
what's happened about...
4259
02:17:46.460 --> 02:17:48.710
What's happened and what's gonna happen
4260
02:17:48.710 --> 02:17:50.650
with the detainees from Guantanamo?
4261
02:17:50.650 --> 02:17:51.840
And he said, "We're still keeping
4262
02:17:51.840 --> 02:17:53.500
a watch on them."
4263
02:17:53.500 --> 02:17:55.880
So, that doesn't really say anything good
4264
02:17:55.880 --> 02:17:57.560
about us to the public, does it?
4265
02:17:57.560 --> 02:18:01.160
It actually makes people more scary,
4266
02:18:01.160 --> 02:18:04.550
and more scared of the fact that we still
4267
02:18:04.550 --> 02:18:06.780
could be a threat to this society.
4268
02:18:06.780 --> 02:18:09.176
And it was not really fair on us
4269
02:18:09.176 --> 02:18:10.009
because we can't move on,
4270
02:18:10.009 --> 02:18:12.217
and we can't have a better life,
4271
02:18:12.217 --> 02:18:13.867
and we can't support our families
4272
02:18:14.915 --> 02:18:16.230
in a better way.
4273
02:18:16.230 --> 02:18:19.030
So, we have to resort to other means
4274
02:18:19.030 --> 02:18:23.926
of money and whatever, so it is difficult.
4275
02:18:23.926 --> 02:18:25.580
Do you think that'll change?
4276
02:18:25.580 --> 02:18:28.126
No, I don't think it'll change.
4277
02:18:28.126 --> 02:18:33.126
I think the thing with Islamophobia,
4278
02:18:33.340 --> 02:18:35.370
it's getting worse day by day,
4279
02:18:35.370 --> 02:18:37.097
it's not actually getting better.
4280
02:18:37.097 --> 02:18:39.290
And the media actually doesn't help
4281
02:18:39.290 --> 02:18:40.660
because most of the information they get
4282
02:18:40.660 --> 02:18:45.660
is wrong, or what they understand of Islam.
4283
02:18:45.730 --> 02:18:47.500
And to actually understand Islam,
4284
02:18:47.500 --> 02:18:49.250
you have to actually study it to give
4285
02:18:49.250 --> 02:18:50.230
your opinion about it.
4286
02:18:50.230 --> 02:18:51.460
I can't talk about Christianity
4287
02:18:51.460 --> 02:18:53.050
because I haven't got a clue about it.
4288
02:18:53.050 --> 02:18:54.150
But why?
4289
02:18:54.150 --> 02:18:58.330
Because if one Christian fanatic decides
4290
02:18:58.330 --> 02:19:00.520
to blow up a building in America,
4291
02:19:00.520 --> 02:19:02.050
I can't blame the whole religion.
4292
02:19:02.050 --> 02:19:04.460
I have to blame the individual, even though
4293
02:19:04.460 --> 02:19:06.920
he's motives might be because of religion,
4294
02:19:06.920 --> 02:19:09.440
but then you have to investigate and educate
4295
02:19:09.440 --> 02:19:12.410
yourself in actually, what does the religion say
4296
02:19:12.410 --> 02:19:14.810
about the other people, other people of faith?
4297
02:19:14.810 --> 02:19:15.940
You have to understand it.
4298
02:19:15.940 --> 02:19:18.030
You can't just say his motives were based
4299
02:19:18.030 --> 02:19:21.130
on Islamic principles, or Islamic beliefs,
4300
02:19:21.130 --> 02:19:22.220
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
4301
02:19:22.220 --> 02:19:25.190
cause he could be wrong in his beliefs.
4302
02:19:25.190 --> 02:19:27.910
It's simple as that, and he could be right,
4303
02:19:27.910 --> 02:19:28.930
he could be wrong.
4304
02:19:28.930 --> 02:19:32.290
And what's happening, them judging every Muslim
4305
02:19:32.290 --> 02:19:34.733
by the actions of a few.
4306
02:19:36.600 --> 02:19:39.100
It's not fair on people like myself
4307
02:19:39.100 --> 02:19:42.940
because when I go and travel to countries,
4308
02:19:42.940 --> 02:19:44.000
on the way back I get stopped,
4309
02:19:44.000 --> 02:19:46.560
in airports I get stopped, I get detained
4310
02:19:46.560 --> 02:19:47.820
because my name is Muslim,
4311
02:19:47.820 --> 02:19:50.940
because I look like a Muslim, I'm brown skinned.
4312
02:19:50.940 --> 02:19:52.130
People with beards.
4313
02:19:52.130 --> 02:19:53.270
Once me and my misses,
4314
02:19:53.270 --> 02:19:55.600
we went to some conference somewhere,
4315
02:19:55.600 --> 02:19:57.900
and she was stopped because she wears a hijab.
4316
02:19:58.790 --> 02:20:00.789
So, it's not nice being stopped.
4317
02:20:00.789 --> 02:20:04.192
You're felt to...
4318
02:20:04.192 --> 02:20:06.903
You were made to feel that you're like aliens,
4319
02:20:07.940 --> 02:20:09.070
and you actually (chuckles) made
4320
02:20:09.070 --> 02:20:11.283
to feel guilty of being brown.
4321
02:20:12.130 --> 02:20:12.963
Do you know what I mean?
4322
02:20:12.963 --> 02:20:15.833
You are made to feel bad because you're a Muslim.
4323
02:20:15.833 --> 02:20:16.863
I don't feel bad because I'm Muslim,
4324
02:20:16.863 --> 02:20:18.750
but I'm talking about people I know,
4325
02:20:18.750 --> 02:20:19.900
who are not practicing.
4326
02:20:21.050 --> 02:20:21.883
Who haven't got a clue
4327
02:20:21.883 --> 02:20:23.030
about what's happening in the world,
4328
02:20:23.030 --> 02:20:24.110
and they are being stopped,
4329
02:20:24.110 --> 02:20:25.433
and it's not fair on them.
4330
02:20:26.350 --> 02:20:29.153
Because you can't round up,
4331
02:20:31.349 --> 02:20:35.170
gather up everybody, Asian,
4332
02:20:35.170 --> 02:20:37.543
or a person who has converted to Islam,
4333
02:20:38.726 --> 02:20:39.640
and do that to them, it's not right.
4334
02:20:39.640 --> 02:20:41.230
And this should not be happening
4335
02:20:41.230 --> 02:20:44.680
in this day and age, it should not be happening.
4336
02:20:44.680 --> 02:20:46.200
So, I have two more questions,
4337
02:20:46.200 --> 02:20:47.360
and then this kind of follows up.
4338
02:20:47.360 --> 02:20:51.360
One is what impact do you think Guantanamo
4339
02:20:51.360 --> 02:20:53.440
has had on your life?
4340
02:20:53.440 --> 02:20:54.590
Was there anything positive
4341
02:20:54.590 --> 02:20:56.980
that has impacted your life by Guantanamo
4342
02:20:56.980 --> 02:20:59.332
and what is negative probably?
4343
02:20:59.332 --> 02:21:01.970
I think it's had more of a positive effect
4344
02:21:01.970 --> 02:21:03.060
on my life.
4345
02:21:03.060 --> 02:21:04.740
I think it would be the case on majority
4346
02:21:04.740 --> 02:21:07.680
of people's lives, if I'm correct.
4347
02:21:07.680 --> 02:21:09.270
There might be some individuals who say,
4348
02:21:09.270 --> 02:21:11.215
no it was the worst time in my life
4349
02:21:11.215 --> 02:21:12.048
and there was nothing positive about it,
4350
02:21:12.048 --> 02:21:12.967
it was all negative.
4351
02:21:12.967 --> 02:21:15.530
But I can say, hand on my heart,
4352
02:21:15.530 --> 02:21:17.330
I don't regret any moments
4353
02:21:17.330 --> 02:21:18.293
of my time in Guantanamo.
4354
02:21:18.293 --> 02:21:20.120
I don't regret going to Pakistan.
4355
02:21:20.120 --> 02:21:21.850
I don't regret going to Afghanistan,
4356
02:21:21.850 --> 02:21:22.850
kept being arrested.
4357
02:21:24.110 --> 02:21:25.050
I don't regret it at all
4358
02:21:25.050 --> 02:21:27.760
because as I said before, I believe in my region.
4359
02:21:27.760 --> 02:21:29.870
I do practice, I try to practice my religion
4360
02:21:29.870 --> 02:21:34.630
as much as possible, and it was part of my faith.
4361
02:21:34.630 --> 02:21:37.790
You know it's tests, God tests you in many ways
4362
02:21:37.790 --> 02:21:39.233
and for me, it was a test.
4363
02:21:40.910 --> 02:21:43.300
The test is not over because you're tested-
4364
02:21:43.300 --> 02:21:44.243
Your whole life.
4365
02:21:44.243 --> 02:21:46.240
Whole life, and maybe that was part
4366
02:21:46.240 --> 02:21:50.200
of my one fraction of the test,
4367
02:21:50.200 --> 02:21:51.430
which was Guantanamo.
4368
02:21:51.430 --> 02:21:53.360
It's made me more of a better person,
4369
02:21:53.360 --> 02:21:56.040
made me more understandable, understanding
4370
02:21:56.040 --> 02:21:58.690
about the faith, the cultures, religion, race,
4371
02:21:58.690 --> 02:22:01.830
color, creed, cast.
4372
02:22:01.830 --> 02:22:03.560
It's made me understand it.
4373
02:22:03.560 --> 02:22:05.407
No matter what you are, who you are,
4374
02:22:05.407 --> 02:22:06.240
humans are humans.
4375
02:22:06.240 --> 02:22:09.770
Human life is very valuable, very sacred
4376
02:22:09.770 --> 02:22:12.170
and just because you're a Christian,
4377
02:22:12.170 --> 02:22:14.290
or I'm a Muslim doesn't make me
4378
02:22:14.290 --> 02:22:16.500
a better person than the other.
4379
02:22:16.500 --> 02:22:17.980
What makes a person better
4380
02:22:17.980 --> 02:22:20.040
is his behavior, his morals,
4381
02:22:20.040 --> 02:22:22.600
that's what makes a person better,
4382
02:22:22.600 --> 02:22:24.130
That is the main thing.
4383
02:22:24.130 --> 02:22:26.343
Also, it's having an effect on me.
4384
02:22:27.260 --> 02:22:29.430
It's made me grow up, I think,
4385
02:22:29.430 --> 02:22:32.390
made me more mature quicker
4386
02:22:32.390 --> 02:22:35.370
than other 27 year olds.
4387
02:22:35.370 --> 02:22:36.250
I've experienced, I've got more
4388
02:22:36.250 --> 02:22:38.390
of a life experience than many other...
4389
02:22:39.387 --> 02:22:42.090
Well, a lot of other 27 year olds. (laughs)
4390
02:22:42.090 --> 02:22:43.590
So, yeah, I'm quite...
4391
02:22:44.583 --> 02:22:45.737
The way I was having around the world
4392
02:22:45.737 --> 02:22:47.970
and I know that the world's not such a nice place
4393
02:22:47.970 --> 02:22:49.570
as people make out to be.
4394
02:22:49.570 --> 02:22:51.329
It's all peaceful, it's not.
4395
02:22:51.329 --> 02:22:52.460
Mm.
4396
02:22:52.460 --> 02:22:55.140
There's a lot of greed, it's all about money.
4397
02:22:55.140 --> 02:22:56.990
It's all about gains, personal gains.
4398
02:22:59.030 --> 02:23:01.220
It's changed my opinion about politicians.
4399
02:23:01.220 --> 02:23:03.810
Politicians, the more lies or corrupt.
4400
02:23:03.810 --> 02:23:06.250
The only reason they actually become MP's,
4401
02:23:06.250 --> 02:23:09.150
or prime ministers, presidents is just
4402
02:23:09.150 --> 02:23:11.267
because they wanna get a name for themselves.
4403
02:23:11.267 --> 02:23:13.910
And the main goal of every person who wants
4404
02:23:13.910 --> 02:23:15.160
to do something is money,
4405
02:23:16.500 --> 02:23:17.690
better wage, better life.
4406
02:23:17.690 --> 02:23:19.120
And it's all about money.
4407
02:23:19.120 --> 02:23:21.980
It's not about giving people their rights.
4408
02:23:21.980 --> 02:23:23.300
It's never been about that
4409
02:23:23.300 --> 02:23:24.652
because if it was then (chuckles)
4410
02:23:24.652 --> 02:23:25.485
it wouldn't be in this state.
4411
02:23:25.485 --> 02:23:26.837
It's as simple as that,
4412
02:23:26.837 --> 02:23:28.460
because majority of people in America
4413
02:23:28.460 --> 02:23:29.293
don't want the war in Iraq.
4414
02:23:29.293 --> 02:23:32.080
Majority of the people in the UK don't want
4415
02:23:32.080 --> 02:23:34.880
the soldiers to be in Iraq, but hello?
4416
02:23:34.880 --> 02:23:36.900
They're still there, and we are the people
4417
02:23:36.900 --> 02:23:38.710
who actually elect these idiots,
4418
02:23:38.710 --> 02:23:40.917
Blair and even Obama.
4419
02:23:40.917 --> 02:23:43.000
Initially when he first came on,
4420
02:23:43.000 --> 02:23:45.363
he seemed to be good, and it sounded good,
4421
02:23:46.567 --> 02:23:47.760
but for them, it's a selling point.
4422
02:23:47.760 --> 02:23:49.820
It's to sell himself.
4423
02:23:49.820 --> 02:23:51.510
He needs to sell himself to become president.
4424
02:23:51.510 --> 02:23:53.370
He wants to sell himself to get the votes.
4425
02:23:53.370 --> 02:23:54.850
Once he's in power, he doesn't give
4426
02:23:54.850 --> 02:23:56.130
a crap about anybody.
4427
02:23:56.130 --> 02:23:58.790
All he cares about his money
4428
02:23:58.790 --> 02:23:59.690
that he's gonna earn.
4429
02:23:59.690 --> 02:24:02.680
He's gonna think about his future, his pension.
4430
02:24:02.680 --> 02:24:05.070
How he is gonna make his son or daughter,
4431
02:24:05.070 --> 02:24:07.740
or his grandson a doctor,
4432
02:24:07.740 --> 02:24:11.443
or somebody high, in a high elite,
4433
02:24:12.430 --> 02:24:13.680
in that country.
4434
02:24:13.680 --> 02:24:15.570
That's what the aims are for those people
4435
02:24:15.570 --> 02:24:19.070
who are prime ministers, MP's, that's...
4436
02:24:19.070 --> 02:24:21.230
They don't care about people,
4437
02:24:21.230 --> 02:24:23.810
the average Joe blogger on the street.
4438
02:24:23.810 --> 02:24:25.323
They don't care about me and you,
4439
02:24:26.278 --> 02:24:28.720
and it's the fact of the matter.
4440
02:24:28.720 --> 02:24:31.020
So, it's made me realize all the things
4441
02:24:31.020 --> 02:24:32.870
and I know that there's no such thing
4442
02:24:32.870 --> 02:24:35.670
as democracy throughout this world,
4443
02:24:35.670 --> 02:24:36.503
there's no such thing.
4444
02:24:36.503 --> 02:24:38.170
There never has been.
4445
02:24:38.170 --> 02:24:39.787
Never has been and never will be,
4446
02:24:39.787 --> 02:24:41.063
and never will succeed.
4447
02:24:42.030 --> 02:24:42.900
Would you say,
4448
02:24:42.900 --> 02:24:44.360
is there something negative that came
4449
02:24:44.360 --> 02:24:46.980
out of Guantanamo besides what...
4450
02:24:46.980 --> 02:24:49.820
That impacted your life significantly.
4451
02:24:49.820 --> 02:24:51.604
No, I don't think nothing negative,
4452
02:24:51.604 --> 02:24:52.971
but maybe for the Americans
4453
02:24:52.971 --> 02:24:54.036
because I've become more religious.
4454
02:24:54.036 --> 02:24:54.869
(interviewer chuckles)
4455
02:24:54.869 --> 02:24:56.350
I've become more closer to my religion,
4456
02:24:56.350 --> 02:24:58.600
which was, it has an opposite effect
4457
02:24:58.600 --> 02:24:59.940
because they tried everything
4458
02:24:59.940 --> 02:25:02.060
to kind of make us...
4459
02:25:02.060 --> 02:25:02.940
I mean, I wasn't a practicing
4460
02:25:02.940 --> 02:25:04.420
person before anyway.
4461
02:25:04.420 --> 02:25:06.238
I was just a normal guy.
4462
02:25:06.238 --> 02:25:07.860
(indistinct) I was born as a Muslim obviously,
4463
02:25:07.860 --> 02:25:09.200
but my family is not religious.
4464
02:25:09.200 --> 02:25:10.850
I'm the only one in my family who actually prays,
4465
02:25:10.850 --> 02:25:13.003
well me and my wife, and my younger sister.
4466
02:25:13.900 --> 02:25:15.780
My mother, my brother, my father,
4467
02:25:15.780 --> 02:25:17.963
my other brothers, my two other brothers,
4468
02:25:18.800 --> 02:25:19.960
my extended family.
4469
02:25:19.960 --> 02:25:21.720
None of them actually pray.
4470
02:25:21.720 --> 02:25:25.200
None of them actually practice religion
4471
02:25:25.200 --> 02:25:27.350
to even a small letter.
4472
02:25:27.350 --> 02:25:28.730
I'm the only one in my whole (chuckles)
4473
02:25:28.730 --> 02:25:31.390
entire family that I know of.
4474
02:25:31.390 --> 02:25:34.580
So, I was actually,
4475
02:25:34.580 --> 02:25:37.010
I went to a Roman Catholic school
4476
02:25:37.010 --> 02:25:38.310
when I was young.
4477
02:25:38.310 --> 02:25:41.603
So, that's the kind of upbringing that I've had.
4478
02:25:41.603 --> 02:25:42.940
I had more of an understanding
4479
02:25:42.940 --> 02:25:45.551
of Christianity than Islam.
4480
02:25:45.551 --> 02:25:46.384
Mm.
4481
02:25:46.384 --> 02:25:48.100
But now, being in Guantanamo,
4482
02:25:48.100 --> 02:25:50.630
I've become more religious, more practicing,
4483
02:25:50.630 --> 02:25:52.430
and I actually follow my religion.
4484
02:25:52.430 --> 02:25:55.510
Anything I do in my life, first of all, I think
4485
02:25:55.510 --> 02:25:57.320
is it according to Islam?
4486
02:25:57.320 --> 02:25:58.290
Mm.
4487
02:25:58.290 --> 02:25:59.270
I think if it's right or wrong,
4488
02:25:59.270 --> 02:26:01.860
and before I didn't care, I used to do anything,
4489
02:26:01.860 --> 02:26:03.700
but now I actually think.
4490
02:26:03.700 --> 02:26:05.400
What does my religion say about this action
4491
02:26:05.400 --> 02:26:07.700
that I'm gonna take, is it right or wrong?
4492
02:26:07.700 --> 02:26:10.930
So, in Guantanamo, they tried their best
4493
02:26:10.930 --> 02:26:14.017
to make us, make people kind of not pray,
4494
02:26:14.017 --> 02:26:17.307
and not do this, not be religious, basically.
4495
02:26:17.307 --> 02:26:19.040
But it's had the opposite effect on nearly
4496
02:26:19.040 --> 02:26:21.420
everybody in Guantanamo who went in
4497
02:26:21.420 --> 02:26:26.420
as a non-practicing person, or individual
4498
02:26:26.450 --> 02:26:28.760
who've all came out with beards.
4499
02:26:28.760 --> 02:26:31.790
Who've all came out to follow Islam
4500
02:26:33.800 --> 02:26:34.750
to the T.
4501
02:26:34.750 --> 02:26:35.583
Hmm.
4502
02:26:35.583 --> 02:26:36.670
So, that's the...
4503
02:26:36.670 --> 02:26:37.817
I mean, it's positive for me,
4504
02:26:37.817 --> 02:26:40.200
but for the Americans it's obviously negative.
4505
02:26:40.200 --> 02:26:41.033
So, that I mean,
4506
02:26:41.033 --> 02:26:42.523
I don't see any negative side.
4507
02:26:43.637 --> 02:26:44.770
(sighs) I don't see.
4508
02:26:44.770 --> 02:26:46.919
I mean, obviously I have pains,
4509
02:26:46.919 --> 02:26:50.600
my knees hurt because of certain things,
4510
02:26:50.600 --> 02:26:54.120
and my back hurts from Guantanamo.
4511
02:26:54.120 --> 02:26:56.970
My eyes deteriorated much worse in Guantanamo.
4512
02:26:56.970 --> 02:26:58.290
I mean, health wise, yeah,
4513
02:26:58.290 --> 02:26:59.560
I've had a few problems.
4514
02:26:59.560 --> 02:27:01.320
That's the only negative things about it.
4515
02:27:01.320 --> 02:27:03.513
Other than than, obviously I lost the time
4516
02:27:03.513 --> 02:27:07.063
with my family, the most important thing in life.
4517
02:27:07.063 --> 02:27:08.420
Mm, is there something
4518
02:27:08.420 --> 02:27:10.330
that I didn't ask you that you'd like
4519
02:27:10.330 --> 02:27:12.850
to talk about, or speak to?
4520
02:27:12.850 --> 02:27:13.683
No, not really.
4521
02:27:13.683 --> 02:27:16.710
I think that we've covered nearly everything.
4522
02:27:16.710 --> 02:27:17.543
Well, it was great.
4523
02:27:17.543 --> 02:27:18.739
It was a great interview.
Cool.
4524
02:27:18.739 --> 02:27:19.654
I really appreciate it.
4525
02:27:19.654 --> 02:27:20.487
You're welcome.
Thank you.
4526
02:27:20.487 --> 02:27:22.154
Thank you. So, okay.
4527
02:27:23.137 --> 02:27:23.970
Thank you so much.
4528
02:27:23.970 --> 02:27:25.217
Thank you.
You're welcome.
4529
02:27:25.217 --> 02:27:26.050
Yeah, it was-
Yeah, it was-
4530
02:27:26.050 --> 02:27:27.149
Amazing.
4531
02:27:27.149 --> 02:27:27.982
Yeah, amazing
4532
02:27:27.982 --> 02:27:28.815
talking, no wonder...