WEBVTT
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Okay, we're rolling.
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Okay, good afternoon.
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Good afternoon.
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We are very grateful to you
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for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project.
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We'd like you to speak of your experiences and involvement
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with detainees who were held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
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We're hoping to provide you with an opportunity
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to tell your story in your own words.
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We are creating an archive of stories
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so that people in America and around the world
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will have a better understanding
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of what you and others have experienced and observed.
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Future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo
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and by telling your story, you're contributing to history.
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We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak with us.
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Thank you.
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If any time during the interview
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you'd like to take a break, please let us know.
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Okay.
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And if there's anything you say
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that you'd rather retract, just let us know
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and we can retract it.
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That's fine.
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And I would like to begin
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with just some basic background information
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on who you are.
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Sure.
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And before we even do that, I'd just like to let you know
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that the opinions I will express are my opinions,
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they do not represent the Department of Defense,
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the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Air Force Reserves
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or any government agency.
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Wonderful, good, thank you.
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You're welcome.
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And so, your name?
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My name's Yvonne Bradley.
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And your marital status?
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I'm single.
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And education?
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Went to law school in Philadelphia, St. George University
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in Philadelphia and went to law school
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at Notre Dame Law School in South Bend, Indiana.
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And your current place of residence?
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I'm stationed, right now, at McGuire Air Force Base,
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but I still live outside of Philadelphia.
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Your current occupation then?
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I'm an attorney.
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And what exactly do you do in the military?
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I'm what you call JAG officer, I'm a lawyer.
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Just to answer, judge advocate general,
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just a fancy word for the way the military titles attorneys.
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Could you first describe
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how you entered the military and then how that led
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to you going to Guantanamo?
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Well, I been in for nearly 20 years,
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so, but 20 years ago after I got out of law school,
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one of the things I wanted to do was to travel
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and practice law, didn't think I could do that
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with a regular law firm and knew that the military
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would offer me that opportunity,
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so I went into the military program,
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the JAG program, was first stationed
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at Travis Air Force Base in San Francisco
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and then had the opportunity to do some defense work
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when I was at Travis, I love doing defense work.
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From there, I was stationed at Hickam Air Force Base
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in Hawaii and after six years, I got out,
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came back home to Philadelphia, a practice in Philadelphia,
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worked for the Federal Defenders Office
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in their Capital Habeas Unit,
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representing individuals in Philadelphia
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and throughout the state of Pennsylvania, actually,
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who were on death row.
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And then, did that for six years.
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After six years of working with
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the Capital Defense Habeas Unit,
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I then went on my own, hung up my own shingles,
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did criminal defense, family law,
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a variety of different law cases
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that would come into the office
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and it was there, working on my own,
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that a notice went out asking for attorneys
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and even when I got out, back up a little,
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even when I got out of the military after six years,
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I did go into the reserves, I was what we call
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a weekend warrior, still a JAG weekend warrior,
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and there was a request for attorneys to volunteer,
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do some volunteer work to represent individuals
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at Guantanamo Bay.
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What year was this?
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This was about 2005.
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I think the notice came in about spring 2005,
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it was a email notice saying they were just looking for
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attorneys or JAGS who may be interested
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in doing work in Guantanamo Bay.
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I knew about Guantanamo from the news,
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from what I read about Guantanamo.
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What did you know about Guantanamo?
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Very little, as I've turned out to find out,
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truly what was happening in Guantanamo, unfortunately.
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Pretty much what I knew, I knew there was a prison there,
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at the time, I was being told it was the worst of the worst,
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individuals being held at Guantanamo Bay,
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that individuals who were involved in 9/11
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or killing Americans or wanting to do really bad things
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to individuals were being held at Guantanamo
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and that we were gonna hold them
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and give them fair, full and fair trials
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and I've heard about the situation with James Yee,
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Captain Yee, at the time.
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So, I had heard things through the media,
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through newspapers, through those sources about Guantanamo.
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End up happening once I got to Guantanamo-
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Before you get there,
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so you volunteered when this came out?
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Yes.
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And were you afraid at all
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before you went there?
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Were you in fear that, if you said these are
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the worst of the worst, that you'd think
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these are gonna be really awful people
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that you were gonna be defending?
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Well, I thought, my background of representing people
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on death row, I was representing the worst of the worst,
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people had already been convicted of killing people,
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serial killers, I represented people who were, you know,
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probably really the worst of the worst.
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So in some sense, I did not fear in that way,
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but that were terrorists, I realized, you know,
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were terrorists, yes I did have some concern
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for my safety when, and representing a terrorist,
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what that would mean.
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I thought more of representing someone who was a terrorist
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that was subjecting myself and my family
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to possible repercussions from a terrorist
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more than anything else.
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Why did you volunteer
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if you were gonna represent people
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who could be a danger to you and your family.
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It was a, just the challenge
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because I'm a defense attorney
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and it was a challenge of knowing something historical
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was happening at Guantanamo Bay,
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understanding at the same time
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that everyone needs full and proper representation,
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so I think it was that defense attorney part of me
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that wanted to step out and represent individuals
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at Guantanamo Bay.
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And I don't even think I thought about
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the terrorist part of it so much
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until the first time I had to go down
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and meet my client, I don't think it really clicked
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on that I was representing a terrorist,
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I thought I was representing, doing my duty to my country,
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helping my country, serving my country
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and being, using my defense skills in a positive way
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on the so-called war on terror.
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Did you know who you'd be representing
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before you flew down?
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I did.
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In the spring of 2005 when the notice went out,
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I kind of, I did debate whether or not to volunteer
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to get involved and decided that I would.
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In November of 2005, I get a call from
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the Chief Defense Counsel stating that I had been selected.
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By that time, I had almost forgot I had even
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threw my name in the hat.
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This had been several months later
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when I was finally informed that I had been selected.
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And I remember the first conversation I had
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with the Chief Defense Counsel
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and he said, "I have the perfect case for you,"
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he said, "I want you to represent a individual
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by the name of Binyam Mohamed."
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And one of the reasons why he thought Mr. Mohamed's case
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would be a perfect case for me to have
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was that Clive Stafford Smith, who was my co-counsel
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on Mr. Mohamed's case, had also done capital cases
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out of the South and probably other places in the U.S.
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So, with me having a background in representing individuals
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in death row and Clive having the same background,
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he thought the two of us would make a good team
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in representing Mr. Mohamed.
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Was Mr. Mohamed a capital case
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that they put both of you on?
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At one point, I think they were looking at
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some of those early individuals
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that they were going to try as capital cases
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and Mr. Mohamed's case was one of the first,
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there was 10 people they were gonna try
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as one of the first 10 cases and I think there was talk
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about, perhaps, those individuals in those first 10 cases
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of detainees they were gonna try, possibly,
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in a capital case.
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So I think that was played in the background
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of why I was selected as counsel for Mr. Mohamed
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and why the Chief Defense Counsel
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thought Clive and I would make a pretty good team
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in representing his best interest.
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So then, what happened next
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after they told you you were gonna be coming out
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to Guantanamo?
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Well, that was very interesting
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because that was in November of 2005,
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by December 2005, I found myself flying down to Guantanamo.
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In fact, the day after Christmas.
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Because once Clive realized that military CASA
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had been appointed to the case,
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he thought it was extremely important
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that we go down and meet the client right away.
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Now I'm thinking, "Right away, it's the holiday season,
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we can wait until January," Clive was like,
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"We need to go and see him as soon as possible."
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So, the 26th of December, I'm flying down to Florida
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to meet Clive for the first time.
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I had heard of Clive, I had seen Clive at a conference,
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but I had never met him one on one
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and so, I remember, we met down in a hotel in Florida,
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at a Ramada Inn, I think it was, I'm not quite sure,
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and I remember meeting him and for the first time,
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trying to discuss Binyam's case.
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Even prior to that, he had sent me a list
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of the other charges and the evidence that he had
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because he had met Binyam in the spring, early on,
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and so, he knew a lot more about the case
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than I did at the time.
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But I still recall when Clive had originally faxed me over
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and/or emailed me over the charge sheet
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and the evidence he had.
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I remember reading through the charge sheet
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and just laughing because I thought this was a joke.
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I'm reading through these charges,
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I am waiting for, you know, who did he murder?
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What mass destruction did he cause?
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I'm waiting for a war crime and all I see
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is this one long conspiracy and everyone's name
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that you could connect at that time
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to allege Al-Qaeda organization was on the charge sheet,
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Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Bin Laden, Richard Reid,
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I'm like, "This is like a fraternity,"
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it just, it made no sense to me.
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And I read, and then at the very end,
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the thing that got me in reading the charge sheet,
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at the very end it said, "And he was apprehended
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at Karachi Airport going back to London."
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And after reading this complex conspiracy
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and not seeing a real crime and seeing that he was picked up
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at the airport, I'm going...
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I remember either emailing Clive or calling Clive
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and saying, "Clive, I don't think you sent me everything
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because this doesn't make sense."
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"Where is the crime and what do you mean
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he was at the airport going back to London?"
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"Because right now, what you've given me
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doesn't state a criminal activity that's a war crime."
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And Clive's like, "That's it, that's the evidence
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against the government."
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And I was like, "Okay, this is gonna be
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a very interesting case."
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So, to go back to when I first met Clive in Florida
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at the hotel, the first time that we met,
263
00:11:50.195 --> 00:11:52.530
we talked a little bit about the case
264
00:11:52.530 --> 00:11:54.300
and that whole approach of how
265
00:11:54.300 --> 00:11:56.610
we're gonna go and see Mr. Mohamed.
266
00:11:56.610 --> 00:11:58.470
And I guess it was really at that point
267
00:11:58.470 --> 00:12:00.470
when I start thinking, "I'm gonna go really see
268
00:12:00.470 --> 00:12:01.730
a real terrorist."
269
00:12:01.730 --> 00:12:03.240
And, I mean, that's what I'm thinking
270
00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:05.377
in the back of my mind, I'm thinking,
271
00:12:05.377 --> 00:12:08.560
"Wow, you know, from what you read in the newspaper
272
00:12:08.560 --> 00:12:11.030
how these people put planes into buildings,
273
00:12:11.030 --> 00:12:13.500
how these people just want to kill Americans,
274
00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:18.500
how they just, you know," you just get this vision
275
00:12:18.700 --> 00:12:20.780
of vicious individuals.
276
00:12:20.780 --> 00:12:24.310
And this is from someone who had represented people
277
00:12:24.310 --> 00:12:27.080
who were really convicted of crimes.
278
00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.530
And I remember the first time going to see Mr. Mohamed,
279
00:12:30.530 --> 00:12:34.660
I, at that particular time, I'm kind of embarrassed
280
00:12:34.660 --> 00:12:39.660
to say this now, I was really scared to go in to meet him.
281
00:12:40.290 --> 00:12:43.920
And I had no reason to be scared and given my background,
282
00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:46.000
given my criminal background, given that I've sat
283
00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.770
face to face with people who were convicted of crimes,
284
00:12:50.770 --> 00:12:52.617
but I remember walking in there and thinking,
285
00:12:52.617 --> 00:12:56.750
"Wow, I'm scared to what you can even say
286
00:12:56.750 --> 00:12:57.950
to this individual."
287
00:12:57.950 --> 00:12:59.990
And I think it was at that point
288
00:12:59.990 --> 00:13:04.020
when I start putting together, after meeting Mr. Mohamed
289
00:13:04.020 --> 00:13:06.020
and seeing him, seeing his demeanor
290
00:13:06.020 --> 00:13:09.596
and looking into his eyes and seeing his body language,
291
00:13:09.596 --> 00:13:11.050
that he was probably more scared of me
292
00:13:11.050 --> 00:13:13.610
than I was of him and-
293
00:13:13.610 --> 00:13:15.930
What demeanor did you see?
294
00:13:15.930 --> 00:13:17.884
I mean, you could look at him
295
00:13:17.884 --> 00:13:19.067
and he was just looking at me as like,
296
00:13:19.067 --> 00:13:21.743
"What is this all about?"
297
00:13:21.743 --> 00:13:22.576
"Who are you?"
298
00:13:22.576 --> 00:13:25.560
Because he had no idea who I was.
299
00:13:25.560 --> 00:13:27.350
And I'm coming in telling him,
300
00:13:27.350 --> 00:13:30.137
and he had no choice, I'm coming in telling him,
301
00:13:30.137 --> 00:13:33.717
"I'm your attorney," and he's trying to figure out,
302
00:13:33.717 --> 00:13:35.957
"Are you really my attorney?"
303
00:13:35.957 --> 00:13:38.410
"Is this a," because one of the things I heard
304
00:13:38.410 --> 00:13:40.450
that they were doing at Guantanamo
305
00:13:40.450 --> 00:13:43.710
was after attorneys would meet with certain clients
306
00:13:43.710 --> 00:13:46.200
or that individuals would go in,
307
00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.710
I don't know who they were, saying they were attorneys,
308
00:13:48.710 --> 00:13:52.990
trying to get detainees to confess or open up
309
00:13:52.990 --> 00:13:55.790
or make admissions, so part of, I think,
310
00:13:55.790 --> 00:13:58.257
probably that was going through his process is,
311
00:13:58.257 --> 00:13:59.607
"What kind of trick is this?"
312
00:13:59.607 --> 00:14:00.717
"Is this real?"
313
00:14:01.731 --> 00:14:03.960
Because in Guantanamo, it's Alice in Wonderland,
314
00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:06.833
you don't know what's real, you don't know what's,
315
00:14:08.363 --> 00:14:10.390
it's absolutely madness.
316
00:14:10.390 --> 00:14:12.940
But, I mean, I didn't understand that at the time,
317
00:14:12.940 --> 00:14:14.800
so I could see in his eyes, just, like,
318
00:14:14.800 --> 00:14:17.560
bewilderment of "Who are you?"
319
00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:19.800
He knew who Clive was and I think
320
00:14:19.800 --> 00:14:21.610
one of the things that happened in that meeting
321
00:14:21.610 --> 00:14:23.880
with Clive introducing him to me,
322
00:14:23.880 --> 00:14:25.450
in fact, before I even went in,
323
00:14:25.450 --> 00:14:28.200
Clive went in before me because we were scared for me
324
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.497
to walk in there and him trying to figure out,
325
00:14:30.497 --> 00:14:31.960
"Who is this individual?"
326
00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.300
So, Clive did go in and meet with him in the afternoon,
327
00:14:35.300 --> 00:14:37.687
in the morning and try to tell him,
328
00:14:37.687 --> 00:14:41.460
"There's an attorney who's been appointed to your case,
329
00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:44.270
I've talked with her," how it would help him
330
00:14:44.270 --> 00:14:45.930
to try to put him at ease.
331
00:14:45.930 --> 00:14:48.300
But even with Clive going in there,
332
00:14:48.300 --> 00:14:50.310
and I came in there, I made sure I didn't dress
333
00:14:50.310 --> 00:14:52.100
in my military uniform the first time
334
00:14:52.100 --> 00:14:53.650
'cause I thought that that would be important
335
00:14:53.650 --> 00:14:57.640
because all of the people who he stated abused him
336
00:14:57.640 --> 00:15:01.460
was somehow a part of either wearing uniforms,
337
00:15:01.460 --> 00:15:04.423
saying they're a part of the military of some nature,
338
00:15:05.420 --> 00:15:07.810
on a daily basis, the way they were getting treated,
339
00:15:07.810 --> 00:15:08.810
they were all a part of the military,
340
00:15:08.810 --> 00:15:10.450
so I thought, psychologically,
341
00:15:10.450 --> 00:15:13.210
I don't want to walk in there in a uniform.
342
00:15:13.210 --> 00:15:18.130
So, when I walked in with, in my civilian clothes,
343
00:15:18.130 --> 00:15:21.220
I could still see in Binyam that, really,
344
00:15:21.220 --> 00:15:24.284
even though Clive had already explained to him,
345
00:15:24.284 --> 00:15:25.117
"Is this a game?"
346
00:15:25.117 --> 00:15:26.720
And one of the things that happened,
347
00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:29.050
I think it started making distrust Clive
348
00:15:29.050 --> 00:15:31.960
'cause now he has to think, "Is this part of
349
00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:33.837
some kind of trick?"
350
00:15:33.837 --> 00:15:37.240
"Is this part of some kind of deceit?"
351
00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:39.650
So, I think instead of accepting me right away,
352
00:15:39.650 --> 00:15:42.087
it started to make him start wondering,
353
00:15:42.087 --> 00:15:43.590
"What is this all about?"
354
00:15:43.590 --> 00:15:47.000
But his whole body language, and as I said,
355
00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:49.620
given my experience, I have represented people before,
356
00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:54.620
so you learn to read tone, body language, demeanor,
357
00:15:56.570 --> 00:15:58.640
everything that Binyam was giving me
358
00:15:58.640 --> 00:16:00.470
during that three or four hours I met with him
359
00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:03.640
the first time, Clive was asking most of the questions,
360
00:16:03.640 --> 00:16:06.700
I was just really looking and listening to Binyam,
361
00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:11.460
watching him, everything struck me as, "This is nonsense."
362
00:16:11.460 --> 00:16:12.947
So I walk into the cell thinking,
363
00:16:12.947 --> 00:16:15.720
"Oh my God, this guy's a terrorist,
364
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:17.610
I'm not gonna give him any information,
365
00:16:17.610 --> 00:16:19.070
he's probably gonna get something out
366
00:16:19.070 --> 00:16:21.080
to do something against me or my family,"
367
00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:23.770
I walk in there with that type of attitude,
368
00:16:23.770 --> 00:16:27.880
I walked out saying, "This is total nonsense."
369
00:16:27.880 --> 00:16:32.880
Almost angry because I realized for the first time
370
00:16:33.210 --> 00:16:36.060
that whatever I knew about Guantanamo,
371
00:16:36.060 --> 00:16:37.220
whatever I read about Guantanamo,
372
00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:40.660
whatever information they had about Binyam
373
00:16:40.660 --> 00:16:42.410
was likely not true.
374
00:16:42.410 --> 00:16:44.560
And that was the first time when it just hit me,
375
00:16:44.560 --> 00:16:48.250
like, wow, how fear and propaganda
376
00:16:48.250 --> 00:16:52.501
can make such a difference on how people understand things.
377
00:16:52.501 --> 00:16:54.990
And I was probably more mad coming out of that cell
378
00:16:54.990 --> 00:16:58.230
with Binyam than I was scared when I first went in
379
00:16:58.230 --> 00:16:59.667
to meet the client.
380
00:16:59.667 --> 00:17:01.460
So, I'm hearing you, it sounds like
381
00:17:01.460 --> 00:17:05.900
your instincts made the entire change in you,
382
00:17:05.900 --> 00:17:08.270
you just, from just by meeting this man,
383
00:17:08.270 --> 00:17:10.253
you decided everything is a fraud.
384
00:17:12.229 --> 00:17:14.163
Yes and that was based just,
385
00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:16.337
I mean, at that point, I had been practicing law
386
00:17:16.337 --> 00:17:21.337
for at least 15-16 years, and I had been in many prison,
387
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:25.390
federal prisons and you learn to survive, I think,
388
00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:29.470
to be a good defense attorney of representing people
389
00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:32.250
on that level of reading people.
390
00:17:32.250 --> 00:17:36.770
Because, and I'm not naive, I walked into many prisons
391
00:17:36.770 --> 00:17:39.125
of people sitting on death row
392
00:17:39.125 --> 00:17:40.000
and the first thing they tell you, "I didn't do it,"
393
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:41.540
and you've already read the case file,
394
00:17:41.540 --> 00:17:42.570
you already seen the evidence,
395
00:17:42.570 --> 00:17:43.650
you read through the transcript,
396
00:17:43.650 --> 00:17:46.750
you're going, "Yes, I know, I know the story already,
397
00:17:46.750 --> 00:17:49.450
you didn't do it," so I wasn't, I didn't go in there naive,
398
00:17:49.450 --> 00:17:52.670
like, "I'm getting tricked by some so-called terrorist,"
399
00:17:52.670 --> 00:17:55.790
I went in there as a person, very seasoned attorney
400
00:17:55.790 --> 00:17:59.810
who has represented individuals from all,
401
00:17:59.810 --> 00:18:04.810
from anywhere from marijuana possession to serial killers
402
00:18:05.580 --> 00:18:08.743
and I was able to sit there right then going,
403
00:18:09.796 --> 00:18:11.520
"This isn't, this is not clicking,
404
00:18:11.520 --> 00:18:15.127
this goes through every experience I have,"
405
00:18:15.127 --> 00:18:19.010
and even if he was, his, there wasn't even enough
406
00:18:19.010 --> 00:18:21.600
on the charge sheet when I first read it
407
00:18:21.600 --> 00:18:24.580
to make me think this is a war crime,
408
00:18:24.580 --> 00:18:27.390
let alone after meeting the client
409
00:18:27.390 --> 00:18:30.710
and listening to him and what was happened
410
00:18:30.710 --> 00:18:35.710
to realize what we're being told wasn't the full truth,
411
00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:39.110
it was what, I think, people wanted us to hear
412
00:18:39.110 --> 00:18:44.090
to justify the current political situation.
413
00:18:44.090 --> 00:18:48.260
So when you left there, what happened next?
414
00:18:48.260 --> 00:18:53.260
When I left that day, when I left Binyam's cell,
415
00:18:54.790 --> 00:18:57.320
I had to go do some soul searching myself.
416
00:18:57.320 --> 00:19:00.950
I mean, to some extent, it rocked my faith in my government,
417
00:19:00.950 --> 00:19:05.460
it rocked my faith in what I was sent down there to do.
418
00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:07.420
But it also gave me the determination
419
00:19:07.420 --> 00:19:12.420
that I was gonna represent this individual fully, zealously
420
00:19:13.100 --> 00:19:15.710
because I thought what was about to take place
421
00:19:16.698 --> 00:19:20.473
down in Guantanamo was a travesty of justice.
422
00:19:20.473 --> 00:19:22.420
And I figured if this happened to my client,
423
00:19:22.420 --> 00:19:25.570
those other 10 individuals were probably
424
00:19:25.570 --> 00:19:30.070
pretty much in the same situation.
425
00:19:30.070 --> 00:19:33.950
So, it was really part of my charge,
426
00:19:33.950 --> 00:19:35.810
both as a defense attorney,
427
00:19:35.810 --> 00:19:38.370
but on a personal level, as well,
428
00:19:38.370 --> 00:19:40.610
of what I was gonna do representing my government,
429
00:19:40.610 --> 00:19:44.970
I knew our government and the JAG Corps was more,
430
00:19:44.970 --> 00:19:47.520
was above this, that we wouldn't stoop to this level.
431
00:19:47.520 --> 00:19:51.910
So, I mean, it really rocked the foundation
432
00:19:51.910 --> 00:19:53.390
of many things that I believed in
433
00:19:53.390 --> 00:19:57.590
and thought that we represented
434
00:19:57.590 --> 00:19:59.310
in that short period of a time.
435
00:19:59.310 --> 00:20:01.540
But then there was also that confusion, too,
436
00:20:01.540 --> 00:20:02.797
it's like, "Am I over-reading this?"
437
00:20:02.797 --> 00:20:06.670
"Maybe he's that good and I'm just being fooled."
438
00:20:06.670 --> 00:20:09.520
Really, you get torn back and forth
439
00:20:09.520 --> 00:20:14.520
between "Do I believe what my, I'm believing deep inside
440
00:20:14.620 --> 00:20:16.030
or am I just reading this wrong?"
441
00:20:16.030 --> 00:20:18.230
Yeah, I had to do a lot of soul searching
442
00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:20.578
'cause there was confusion with me
443
00:20:20.578 --> 00:20:21.411
because you do go back and forth.
444
00:20:21.411 --> 00:20:24.720
You go in fearful, you come out mad,
445
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.350
you come out thinking, "Am I the crazy one
446
00:20:27.350 --> 00:20:29.210
where maybe I'm reading this wrong?"
447
00:20:29.210 --> 00:20:34.210
It really does make you think about what this was all about.
448
00:20:35.882 --> 00:20:37.350
Did you have anyone to talk to?
449
00:20:37.350 --> 00:20:40.180
Clive was like, the thing is, Clive was the only one
450
00:20:40.180 --> 00:20:42.310
I really could talk to 'cause now you have
451
00:20:42.310 --> 00:20:45.673
attorney-client privileges that you have to protect.
452
00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:48.410
I wasn't even telling my friends,
453
00:20:48.410 --> 00:20:50.250
my friends thought I was being really mysterious
454
00:20:50.250 --> 00:20:52.910
because I wasn't telling them I was involved in Guantanamo.
455
00:20:52.910 --> 00:20:56.330
I feel like Guantanamo was almost the same, even worse
456
00:20:56.330 --> 00:20:57.840
than when I was in capital cases.
457
00:20:57.840 --> 00:20:59.240
When I used to do capital cases,
458
00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:00.620
I didn't tell a lot of people what I would do
459
00:21:00.620 --> 00:21:04.580
because death penalty and the death sentence capital cases,
460
00:21:04.580 --> 00:21:06.350
people have very strong opinions
461
00:21:06.350 --> 00:21:09.270
whether or not, you know, you should execute someone or not.
462
00:21:09.270 --> 00:21:11.619
So I learned not to really tell people what to do
463
00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:12.890
because I didn't want to get into this debate
464
00:21:12.890 --> 00:21:15.900
about whether it was right for capital punishment,
465
00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:17.310
I had better things to do with my life
466
00:21:17.310 --> 00:21:19.226
than have these debates.
467
00:21:19.226 --> 00:21:22.210
And Guantanamo became that ten times more
468
00:21:22.210 --> 00:21:24.520
that I didn't tell anyone what I was doing,
469
00:21:24.520 --> 00:21:27.550
just because I didn't want to get into that conflict,
470
00:21:27.550 --> 00:21:29.870
particularly when I was having conflict in myself
471
00:21:29.870 --> 00:21:32.060
about Guantanamo.
472
00:21:32.060 --> 00:21:35.113
So, I really didn't have too many people to talk to,
473
00:21:36.330 --> 00:21:38.900
so a lot of the conversation, you know,
474
00:21:38.900 --> 00:21:40.630
Clive and I, from the legal scale,
475
00:21:40.630 --> 00:21:45.630
but from talking to someone about my concerns about it,
476
00:21:46.390 --> 00:21:49.390
it was a very limited circle, pretty much
477
00:21:49.390 --> 00:21:51.630
in the defense community.
478
00:21:51.630 --> 00:21:54.940
And that was even hard, too, because it was only
479
00:21:54.940 --> 00:21:59.270
a small number of us and the charge sheet,
480
00:21:59.270 --> 00:22:02.810
many of the first 10 individuals who were tried,
481
00:22:02.810 --> 00:22:04.810
they were, been named in each others' charge sheets,
482
00:22:04.810 --> 00:22:07.670
so now you have these co-conspirators and co-defendants,
483
00:22:07.670 --> 00:22:09.880
so you really can't talk to other people's attorneys,
484
00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:13.772
so you don violate any ethical violations
485
00:22:13.772 --> 00:22:17.720
and that became another entire issue later on
486
00:22:18.582 --> 00:22:21.410
at a hearing that I almost got locked up
487
00:22:21.410 --> 00:22:26.220
when we had some ethical disputes about the organization,
488
00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:30.100
how the Office of Military Commission Defense
489
00:22:30.100 --> 00:22:32.335
was even set up, but that's a different story.
490
00:22:32.335 --> 00:22:34.637
We'll get to that, yeah.
491
00:22:34.637 --> 00:22:37.830
So, could you then take us to after you left that day
492
00:22:37.830 --> 00:22:42.070
and did you go back the next day or?
493
00:22:42.070 --> 00:22:47.070
I think we met with Binyam two or three times,
494
00:22:47.610 --> 00:22:48.613
I don't remember.
495
00:22:49.610 --> 00:22:52.300
That first meeting just stands out so much in my mind,
496
00:22:52.300 --> 00:22:54.360
just because of the emotional back and forth
497
00:22:54.360 --> 00:22:56.610
I went on the case.
498
00:22:56.610 --> 00:22:59.000
I think we might've met with him
499
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.660
probably the next day or two
500
00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:02.990
and I think Clive had other clients there
501
00:23:02.990 --> 00:23:06.950
that he also met, but during that first time period
502
00:23:06.950 --> 00:23:09.330
when I met Mr. Mohamed, I allowed Clive
503
00:23:09.330 --> 00:23:13.060
to do most of the speaking and I just was pretty much
504
00:23:13.060 --> 00:23:18.060
trying to take notes, also trying to put Binyam at ease.
505
00:23:19.520 --> 00:23:21.220
I must've met with him the second day
506
00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:24.220
because I think the next time I went back,
507
00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:27.860
I had to be in uniform and this was the other,
508
00:23:27.860 --> 00:23:31.763
Guantanamo was full with silly absolute rules that,
509
00:23:32.700 --> 00:23:35.810
I couldn't even write the nonsense in there
510
00:23:35.810 --> 00:23:38.630
on a bad, not that I do drugs at all,
511
00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:40.910
but even if I did drugs and had a bad trip,
512
00:23:40.910 --> 00:23:42.560
I couldn't write half the rules
513
00:23:42.560 --> 00:23:44.753
that they came up with at Guantanamo.
514
00:23:46.005 --> 00:23:48.900
And one of the rules was that as new defense counsel,
515
00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:50.690
military defense counsel, you had,
516
00:23:50.690 --> 00:23:53.560
you were allowed one time to go in to meet your client
517
00:23:53.560 --> 00:23:57.080
without your uniform on to try to set up the rapport,
518
00:23:57.080 --> 00:24:00.060
as if, you know, one time without your uniform
519
00:24:00.060 --> 00:24:01.610
is gonna set up any rapport.
520
00:24:01.610 --> 00:24:04.800
I saw Binyam's reaction the first time I went in there
521
00:24:04.800 --> 00:24:08.210
without a uniform and just say, "I'm your defense counsel"
522
00:24:08.210 --> 00:24:12.870
and, but the rule was you could go,
523
00:24:12.870 --> 00:24:15.450
the military defense counsel can go in one meeting,
524
00:24:15.450 --> 00:24:18.450
one time without uniform, after that,
525
00:24:18.450 --> 00:24:20.290
you had to wear your uniform.
526
00:24:20.290 --> 00:24:24.220
So, the next time, 'cause I would've liked to ease it in
527
00:24:24.220 --> 00:24:26.920
because I think, psychologically, here again,
528
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:30.320
for the detainee, the people who are holding him,
529
00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:33.400
the people who are either mistreating him
530
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:35.700
or treating him kindly, his whole situation
531
00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.750
is with the military, people wearing uniform.
532
00:24:38.750 --> 00:24:41.190
So I thought it was very important for counsel,
533
00:24:41.190 --> 00:24:43.330
as long as counsel felt it was comfortable
534
00:24:43.330 --> 00:24:45.810
to be in uniform, to try to make that separation
535
00:24:45.810 --> 00:24:47.930
because you are representing these individuals,
536
00:24:47.930 --> 00:24:49.390
not to be in uniform.
537
00:24:49.390 --> 00:24:51.490
But, no, we don't make those type of rules,
538
00:24:51.490 --> 00:24:53.080
you had to go with the uniform.
539
00:24:53.080 --> 00:24:56.307
So, I think I even told Binyam after our first meeting,
540
00:24:56.307 --> 00:24:59.400
"Next time you see me, I will be in uniform,"
541
00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:03.230
just to help him to understand that.
542
00:25:03.230 --> 00:25:06.730
So, I do believe now, looking back on it,
543
00:25:06.730 --> 00:25:09.000
I must've met with him the next day
544
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:12.150
and I walked in there in the uniform,
545
00:25:12.150 --> 00:25:15.177
which I'm quite sure he then is thinking,
546
00:25:15.177 --> 00:25:18.787
"What nonsense are you guys playing with me now?"
547
00:25:18.787 --> 00:25:20.367
"Are you really a attorney?"
548
00:25:20.367 --> 00:25:22.220
"Is this part of some kind of, are you,
549
00:25:22.220 --> 00:25:24.847
just want me, get me to make admissions?"
550
00:25:25.924 --> 00:25:27.440
You could just read it on his body language,
551
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.273
he had no idea what was going on.
552
00:25:31.826 --> 00:25:33.491
When you came to Guantanamo,
553
00:25:33.491 --> 00:25:36.520
did you get a chance to observe the prison system at all
554
00:25:36.520 --> 00:25:39.780
or anything beside just going to the unit
555
00:25:39.780 --> 00:25:41.520
where you met Binyam?
556
00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:43.470
Well, I remember the very first time,
557
00:25:43.470 --> 00:25:45.630
and I had been to many prisons before
558
00:25:45.630 --> 00:25:50.090
and I know how prisons work, I think one of the things
559
00:25:50.090 --> 00:25:52.360
that struck me on the prison system
560
00:25:52.360 --> 00:25:56.240
was just the way that counsel was treated.
561
00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:58.720
No man used to, as an attorney,
562
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:02.270
would go into a prison, federal prison, state prison,
563
00:26:02.270 --> 00:26:04.513
that attorneys are treated as attorneys.
564
00:26:05.690 --> 00:26:10.690
There's a sense of trust that you will follow the rules
565
00:26:11.010 --> 00:26:14.200
of the facility, your items aren't looking,
566
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:18.373
are not looked through,
Inspected.
567
00:26:18.373 --> 00:26:20.400
inspected, as they were at Guantanamo
568
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.200
and I just felt, this was my personal opinion,
569
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:28.120
that we were treated as if we were part of the,
570
00:26:28.120 --> 00:26:29.420
as if I was an enemy.
571
00:26:29.420 --> 00:26:34.420
I had to say, at times, "I'm in uniform, I'm one of you,"
572
00:26:34.520 --> 00:26:37.260
I just didn't like the tone and the feel,
573
00:26:37.260 --> 00:26:41.060
you could feel the distrust and I wasn't used to,
574
00:26:41.060 --> 00:26:43.960
when I went into a prison, having my papers
575
00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:45.710
searched through, so the first time that happened,
576
00:26:45.710 --> 00:26:47.360
I'm going, "You can't do that,"
577
00:26:47.360 --> 00:26:49.590
I'm thinking that, I don't know if I said that out loud,
578
00:26:49.590 --> 00:26:50.960
and I think Clive was really good
579
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:53.600
because he kind of prepared me for a couple of things,
580
00:26:53.600 --> 00:26:57.030
which I'd have been shocked, both as an officer
581
00:26:57.880 --> 00:26:59.830
in the military, to be treated as if
582
00:26:59.830 --> 00:27:02.000
you have to go through my inspection,
583
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:05.100
as if I'm gonna sneak in a file to this individual,
584
00:27:05.100 --> 00:27:08.470
I carry the same type of security clearance as you,
585
00:27:08.470 --> 00:27:10.100
I had to go to top security clearance,
586
00:27:10.100 --> 00:27:12.180
I've been in the military for a number of years,
587
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:17.180
I'm an officer, so I felt a level of betrayal, of distrust
588
00:27:17.560 --> 00:27:19.632
that you would think I would do anything
589
00:27:19.632 --> 00:27:22.040
that would jeopardize, even national security,
590
00:27:22.040 --> 00:27:23.680
of representing my client.
591
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:25.840
So, the whole system down there,
592
00:27:25.840 --> 00:27:29.510
I thought was askewed to establish distrust
593
00:27:29.510 --> 00:27:32.610
in defense attorneys, establishing trust
594
00:27:32.610 --> 00:27:35.073
between defense attorneys and detainees.
595
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:39.150
When your client ask you for certain things,
596
00:27:39.150 --> 00:27:41.810
you could say, "Hey, I can't bring a,
597
00:27:41.810 --> 00:27:43.840
we gotta wait for a spork to be brought in
598
00:27:43.840 --> 00:27:46.400
because they think, if I bring you a stirrer
599
00:27:47.262 --> 00:27:49.940
from McDonald's, you're gonna form some kind of weapon
600
00:27:49.940 --> 00:27:54.630
and," I mean, it just became madness
601
00:27:54.630 --> 00:27:57.501
when looking at the system.
602
00:27:57.501 --> 00:27:58.940
Did you say the papers you brought in
603
00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:01.960
had to be inspected before you could bring them
604
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:03.610
into your meeting?
605
00:28:03.610 --> 00:28:05.119
Is that what you're saying?
606
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:06.500
Yes, they had to be inspected before,
607
00:28:06.500 --> 00:28:09.373
they had to be inspected after.
608
00:28:09.373 --> 00:28:11.630
And when I say inspected, normally,
609
00:28:11.630 --> 00:28:14.141
I've been to prisons where you might have to go through
610
00:28:14.141 --> 00:28:14.974
a metal detector or they might just
611
00:28:14.974 --> 00:28:17.400
open up the case, courtesy type of thing,
612
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:20.270
but at Guantanamo, I mean, they would go page by page
613
00:28:20.270 --> 00:28:21.510
and they would do this.
614
00:28:21.510 --> 00:28:24.147
I'm saying, "You can't read my documents,"
615
00:28:24.147 --> 00:28:26.911
"We're not reading, we're scanning them."
616
00:28:26.911 --> 00:28:28.580
I'm like, and, but they would take pages out
617
00:28:28.580 --> 00:28:29.500
and they would put it aside,
618
00:28:29.500 --> 00:28:31.157
I'm like, "Why are you taking that page aside?"
619
00:28:31.157 --> 00:28:34.410
"Uh, there's um," I don't, I can't remember what the word
620
00:28:34.410 --> 00:28:37.320
that they would use, but it was something on there
621
00:28:37.320 --> 00:28:38.153
that I couldn't bring in, I'm like,
622
00:28:38.153 --> 00:28:39.500
"How do you know there's something on that paper
623
00:28:39.500 --> 00:28:40.877
I can't bring in if you're not reading it?"
624
00:28:40.877 --> 00:28:43.277
"Oh, we're not reading, we're just scanning it."
625
00:28:44.351 --> 00:28:45.340
"But you're just, you're doing something
626
00:28:45.340 --> 00:28:46.950
that you're identifying the paper."
627
00:28:46.950 --> 00:28:49.210
And in the particular situation,
628
00:28:49.210 --> 00:28:54.210
it had a I.D. number from another client on it
629
00:28:54.580 --> 00:28:55.990
and I think it was even documents
630
00:28:55.990 --> 00:28:59.100
that my client had written me about certain things.
631
00:28:59.100 --> 00:29:00.630
I said, "You can't do that,
632
00:29:00.630 --> 00:29:02.490
that's an attorney-client privilege,
633
00:29:02.490 --> 00:29:05.600
they're privileged documents, you cannot sit this aside."
634
00:29:05.600 --> 00:29:08.220
But they would do that, they would go through page by page,
635
00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:10.870
going like this, reading through,
636
00:29:10.870 --> 00:29:13.637
telling me, "We're not reading, we're just scanning it."
637
00:29:15.058 --> 00:29:16.720
And, contraband, that was the word that they would use
638
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:18.310
that, you know, if you brought anything in,
639
00:29:18.310 --> 00:29:20.093
they would call it contraband.
640
00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:22.458
Who was they?
641
00:29:22.458 --> 00:29:23.291
Who were these people?
642
00:29:23.291 --> 00:29:24.124
The guards.
643
00:29:24.124 --> 00:29:25.040
And I don't take it on the guards,
644
00:29:25.040 --> 00:29:28.140
the guards were following the standard operation procedures
645
00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:30.530
that they were given.
646
00:29:30.530 --> 00:29:32.210
But anything that you brought in
647
00:29:32.210 --> 00:29:36.590
was subject to full inspection,
648
00:29:36.590 --> 00:29:40.500
even down to if you brought in a sandwich from McDonald's,
649
00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:42.090
they would go through and they'd make a list,
650
00:29:42.090 --> 00:29:46.230
one Big Mac, one soda, french fries,
651
00:29:46.230 --> 00:29:48.397
I'm going, "Okay, guys."
652
00:29:50.143 --> 00:29:54.183
And it became ridiculous at times.
653
00:29:55.202 --> 00:29:56.035
Go on.
654
00:29:56.035 --> 00:29:57.330
No, I was gonna recall another time of,
655
00:29:57.330 --> 00:30:00.020
another example of contraband.
656
00:30:00.020 --> 00:30:04.300
And this happened in 2006 right after the suicides
657
00:30:04.300 --> 00:30:07.470
and it was coincidence.
658
00:30:07.470 --> 00:30:10.226
The suicides happened on the weekend
659
00:30:10.226 --> 00:30:13.863
in which I was, Binyam had two hearings in 206,
660
00:30:15.070 --> 00:30:18.670
he had a hearing in April and then that April hearing
661
00:30:18.670 --> 00:30:22.290
led to a hearing in June in 2006
662
00:30:22.290 --> 00:30:23.710
and it was on a Monday, I don't remember
663
00:30:23.710 --> 00:30:26.100
what particular day on Monday,
664
00:30:26.100 --> 00:30:29.800
but that Saturday, it was a Friday or Saturday,
665
00:30:29.800 --> 00:30:32.000
they had the suicides.
666
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.360
And when they had the suicides,
667
00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:35.624
of course they canceled Binyam's meeting.
668
00:30:35.624 --> 00:30:38.220
And I had my own theory of why they canceled the hearing,
669
00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:39.690
his hearing, and I think part of what,
670
00:30:39.690 --> 00:30:41.540
they didn't want the press and the media
671
00:30:41.540 --> 00:30:44.363
down in Guantanamo after these suicides,
672
00:30:45.660 --> 00:30:49.243
which they would've had with Binyam's hearing coming up.
673
00:30:49.243 --> 00:30:50.840
In fact, they had some press who came in early
674
00:30:50.840 --> 00:30:52.710
and they quickly isolated them
675
00:30:52.710 --> 00:30:54.763
and got them off of Guantanamo.
676
00:30:56.490 --> 00:30:58.140
When they canceled Binyam's hearing,
677
00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:00.290
they never told Binyam what happened,
678
00:31:00.290 --> 00:31:02.880
they just came in, they took boxes out of his cell.
679
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:04.060
In fact, during this time period,
680
00:31:04.060 --> 00:31:07.820
we learned they took boxes from all the detainees,
681
00:31:07.820 --> 00:31:09.930
they took all their materials.
682
00:31:09.930 --> 00:31:11.150
So, one day when they come in
683
00:31:11.150 --> 00:31:12.850
and they take Binyam's boxes,
684
00:31:12.850 --> 00:31:16.390
he's think they're taking his items for a hearing,
685
00:31:16.390 --> 00:31:17.610
but they don't tell him they're taking them,
686
00:31:17.610 --> 00:31:19.890
they're seizing everything because of these suicides
687
00:31:19.890 --> 00:31:22.048
'cause then they're out trying to figure out
688
00:31:22.048 --> 00:31:23.698
who, why these suicides happened.
689
00:31:25.060 --> 00:31:27.480
They don't tell Binyam his hearing is canceled,
690
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:29.420
so he sits there all day Monday
691
00:31:29.420 --> 00:31:32.350
waiting for them to come for a hearing that,
692
00:31:32.350 --> 00:31:35.120
so he's thinking now, we're holding these hearings
693
00:31:35.120 --> 00:31:36.350
without him, I later figure out,
694
00:31:36.350 --> 00:31:38.340
he thinks we're holding this hearing without him,
695
00:31:38.340 --> 00:31:41.260
we betrayed him, this is another establishment of distrust
696
00:31:41.260 --> 00:31:44.313
the system put in to these attorney-client relationships.
697
00:31:45.330 --> 00:31:48.160
I can't get down there until about July,
698
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:49.510
so when I come down there in July,
699
00:31:49.510 --> 00:31:52.210
I realize I've only met this individual a few times,
700
00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:55.270
he still doesn't trust me, I need to explain to him
701
00:31:55.270 --> 00:31:56.103
what happened.
702
00:31:56.103 --> 00:31:58.820
So I go out to the BBC, which I figure
703
00:31:58.820 --> 00:32:02.920
he's a UK resident, he's a, you know, British resident,
704
00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:05.170
I go to a source that he knows, the BBC,
705
00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:06.950
so he knows I'm not telling the truth,
706
00:32:06.950 --> 00:32:10.670
to let him know why I couldn't come down there for a month,
707
00:32:10.670 --> 00:32:13.023
about the suicides.
708
00:32:14.130 --> 00:32:15.530
I don't think the BBC's giving out
709
00:32:15.530 --> 00:32:19.200
national security information, so I try to bring in
710
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.340
the newspapers to show Binyam, "Hey, this is what happened,
711
00:32:22.340 --> 00:32:24.390
this is why I wasn't here," because he's not gonna
712
00:32:24.390 --> 00:32:26.150
take my word for it, I figured that if you see it
713
00:32:26.150 --> 00:32:29.180
from a third source, the BBC, perhaps you'll understand
714
00:32:29.180 --> 00:32:31.230
what happened, why I couldn't come down here
715
00:32:31.230 --> 00:32:32.730
for a period of time.
716
00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:35.460
I go in, they're inspecting my paper,
717
00:32:35.460 --> 00:32:38.340
I'm not hiding anything, it's all in there in my paperwork,
718
00:32:38.340 --> 00:32:41.003
and they come across the newspaper article,
719
00:32:42.040 --> 00:32:43.830
you would think I was carrying in
720
00:32:44.730 --> 00:32:46.513
weapons of mass destruction.
721
00:32:47.350 --> 00:32:50.230
Next thing I know, "You have contraband,
722
00:32:50.230 --> 00:32:52.130
we don't know what to do, you can't go in,"
723
00:32:52.130 --> 00:32:54.030
they're calling the legal office,
724
00:32:54.030 --> 00:32:56.200
there were guards coming, I'm going,
725
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:57.917
they're reading this paper, I'm like,
726
00:32:57.917 --> 00:33:02.520
"It's from the British BBC, it's to explain to my client
727
00:33:02.520 --> 00:33:04.357
why I wasn't here."
728
00:33:04.357 --> 00:33:09.357
"Ma'am, do you know what you can cause by bringing this in?"
729
00:33:09.650 --> 00:33:11.717
I'm like, "They don't know about the deaths here?"
730
00:33:11.717 --> 00:33:12.987
"This has been a month."
731
00:33:12.987 --> 00:33:14.560
"You can't bring this, they can't know
732
00:33:14.560 --> 00:33:16.320
this type of information."
733
00:33:16.320 --> 00:33:19.840
And I said, "Well, okay, I won't bring it in,
734
00:33:19.840 --> 00:33:23.810
just hold it, hold onto it and I'll take the article with me
735
00:33:23.810 --> 00:33:24.657
when I come out."
736
00:33:24.657 --> 00:33:27.240
"We can't give this to you back, this is being seized,
737
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:28.686
this is contraband."
738
00:33:28.686 --> 00:33:33.180
And I'm thinking, "What are you talking about?"
739
00:33:33.180 --> 00:33:36.970
And it was examples of that nature.
740
00:33:36.970 --> 00:33:39.380
So of course, when I go in and see Binyam,
741
00:33:39.380 --> 00:33:43.180
I'm trying to explain to him that, you know,
742
00:33:43.180 --> 00:33:46.630
I can't even say the word suicide,
743
00:33:46.630 --> 00:33:49.350
I can't even say these deaths happened,
744
00:33:49.350 --> 00:33:52.520
so I'm tippy toeing around, trying to explain to him
745
00:33:52.520 --> 00:33:55.004
why I haven't seen him in awhile
746
00:33:55.004 --> 00:33:57.270
without using the word there were suicides here.
747
00:33:57.270 --> 00:33:58.880
So suddenly he said, "Well, what about
748
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:00.660
the three suicides that happened?"
749
00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:03.267
I'm going, "You know about the suicides?"
750
00:34:03.267 --> 00:34:04.800
"Well, yes, I know about the suicides."
751
00:34:04.800 --> 00:34:06.210
So now it makes me look foolish
752
00:34:06.210 --> 00:34:09.340
because he's thinking I'm not being honest with him,
753
00:34:09.340 --> 00:34:12.360
but I'm being told I can't tell you about the suicides
754
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:14.640
because that might be a national security concern
755
00:34:14.640 --> 00:34:16.723
if you know about the suicides,
756
00:34:18.094 --> 00:34:19.820
and so, we had this whole conversation
757
00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:21.330
about the suicides.
758
00:34:21.330 --> 00:34:22.840
And he doesn't think they're suicides,
759
00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:25.710
but I'm thinking, "How much of this
760
00:34:25.710 --> 00:34:26.950
can I even engage in?"
761
00:34:26.950 --> 00:34:29.780
I'm trying to establish a working relationship,
762
00:34:29.780 --> 00:34:31.730
a trusting relationship and I can't even talk
763
00:34:31.730 --> 00:34:33.600
about basic facts.
764
00:34:33.600 --> 00:34:36.740
And I know he's testing me as much as I'm trying to
765
00:34:36.740 --> 00:34:39.083
establish a relationship with him.
766
00:34:39.947 --> 00:34:42.260
And that was the continued type of madness
767
00:34:42.260 --> 00:34:46.100
when we talk about this so-called prison system
768
00:34:46.100 --> 00:34:48.480
of Guantanamo and how it was so different
769
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:50.050
from the real world.
770
00:34:50.050 --> 00:34:52.560
I mean, I couldn't even ever imagine,
771
00:34:52.560 --> 00:34:55.720
talk to any of my clients that I ever represented,
772
00:34:55.720 --> 00:34:58.415
to go in and say, "You can't talk about something
773
00:34:58.415 --> 00:35:01.960
that's important to the client
774
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:04.490
or explain to him why you weren't here
775
00:35:04.490 --> 00:35:07.280
or why his hearing was," I mean, how do you
776
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.170
explain to someone that the hearing was canceled
777
00:35:10.170 --> 00:35:13.410
without telling them it's based on the suicides?
778
00:35:13.410 --> 00:35:15.473
And I can't talk about the suicides.
779
00:35:17.237 --> 00:35:18.637
It was that type of madness.
780
00:35:19.826 --> 00:35:22.270
Do you think your discussions with him
781
00:35:22.270 --> 00:35:24.160
were being heard by the military?
782
00:35:24.160 --> 00:35:26.360
Oh, no doubt about it.
783
00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:30.870
There's nothing about Guantanamo that I would trust.
784
00:35:30.870 --> 00:35:34.490
I wouldn't, it would not surprise me
785
00:35:34.490 --> 00:35:37.480
that if every single interview I did with Mr. Mohamed
786
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:41.210
was recorded and taped in some fashion.
787
00:35:41.210 --> 00:35:43.350
I kind of joke with my family,
788
00:35:43.350 --> 00:35:45.520
my sister, in particular, that if I ever ran
789
00:35:45.520 --> 00:35:47.330
for political office, I'm quite sure
790
00:35:47.330 --> 00:35:50.926
some tape somewhere from conversations I had
791
00:35:50.926 --> 00:35:54.790
with Mr. Mohamed will somehow surface in some nature,
792
00:35:54.790 --> 00:35:56.830
so I tell her I can never run for political office
793
00:35:56.830 --> 00:35:58.700
'cause I'm quite sure the tapes are out there.
794
00:35:58.700 --> 00:36:00.330
I mean, they would tell us they weren't,
795
00:36:00.330 --> 00:36:02.183
that the camera was just running,
796
00:36:03.380 --> 00:36:05.520
not the audio end, but just the video
797
00:36:05.520 --> 00:36:07.620
for our own safety and security,
798
00:36:07.620 --> 00:36:10.913
even though the client is bolted to the floor,
799
00:36:11.975 --> 00:36:14.680
I don't know what he could possibly do to me
800
00:36:14.680 --> 00:36:17.840
being bolted to the floor, but for my safety I guess,
801
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:22.650
you know, they had to be at least a audio view,
802
00:36:22.650 --> 00:36:25.283
but they weren't supposed to be taped, but I don't,
803
00:36:26.240 --> 00:36:29.600
I personally don't believe that there,
804
00:36:29.600 --> 00:36:31.500
that was the only thing that was running,
805
00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:34.263
I think that it was probably audio and video tapes.
806
00:36:36.210 --> 00:36:39.060
Had you heard other stories like your own
807
00:36:39.060 --> 00:36:42.100
from other lawyers, even if you couldn't talk about
808
00:36:42.100 --> 00:36:45.003
particular factors of Mohamed,
809
00:36:45.003 --> 00:36:46.170
had you heard from other attorneys
810
00:36:46.170 --> 00:36:48.670
of similar situations where they were so frustrated
811
00:36:48.670 --> 00:36:53.230
in their representations or in that they couldn't be
812
00:36:54.104 --> 00:36:56.047
totally candid with their client
813
00:36:56.047 --> 00:36:57.880
because they were under restrictions?
814
00:36:57.880 --> 00:36:59.750
On the military side, yes.
815
00:36:59.750 --> 00:37:03.946
I mean, I think probably on the civilian side, as well.
816
00:37:03.946 --> 00:37:05.760
I mean, we were told we couldn't talk about current events,
817
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.560
we were told that we can't talk about sporting events,
818
00:37:08.560 --> 00:37:10.990
you could only talk about your case.
819
00:37:10.990 --> 00:37:15.270
I mean, and 90% of the time, the client already knew
820
00:37:15.270 --> 00:37:17.090
about certain things and most of the times
821
00:37:17.090 --> 00:37:19.730
they would ask you questions to test you
822
00:37:19.730 --> 00:37:21.930
to see if you would tell them the truth.
823
00:37:21.930 --> 00:37:23.417
So in the back of your head you're like,
824
00:37:23.417 --> 00:37:25.550
"Okay, I need to talk about this
825
00:37:25.550 --> 00:37:28.920
because all this stuff is important,"
826
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:31.060
but at the same time, I'm being told
827
00:37:31.060 --> 00:37:33.210
you can't talk about certain things.
828
00:37:33.210 --> 00:37:35.700
But as long as you can kind of crux it somehow
829
00:37:35.700 --> 00:37:37.150
in your client's case, which then
830
00:37:37.150 --> 00:37:40.150
everything became crux somehow, your client's case
831
00:37:40.150 --> 00:37:43.480
because it became a game of cat and mouse
832
00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:46.840
of I need to do ethically as an attorney
833
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:49.810
to represent my client, I don't represent the Air Force
834
00:37:49.810 --> 00:37:51.640
at this time or the Department of Justice
835
00:37:51.640 --> 00:37:54.130
as a defense attorney, I have ethical duty
836
00:37:54.130 --> 00:37:57.450
to represent my client and do what I need to do
837
00:37:57.450 --> 00:37:59.600
to do that the best that I can.
838
00:37:59.600 --> 00:38:01.970
So, a lot of times I think a lot of attorneys
839
00:38:01.970 --> 00:38:05.870
were being frustrated and I think it was designed
840
00:38:05.870 --> 00:38:09.410
to frustrate the attorneys, designed to frustrate
841
00:38:09.410 --> 00:38:14.100
the relationships between the detainee and client
842
00:38:14.100 --> 00:38:16.707
in the way that the rules were set up.
843
00:38:16.707 --> 00:38:20.030
And some of it, I don't know was just plain incompetence
844
00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:22.093
or whether it was by design.
845
00:38:23.014 --> 00:38:24.750
I know there was one attorney, military attorney,
846
00:38:24.750 --> 00:38:26.420
he said, "You know, part of this
847
00:38:26.420 --> 00:38:29.830
is probably more incompetent than by design,"
848
00:38:29.830 --> 00:38:31.550
but at times, it was hard to tell
849
00:38:31.550 --> 00:38:34.000
where that line was being drawn
850
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:39.000
because a lot of it really focused on just an insanity
851
00:38:39.510 --> 00:38:42.610
of trying to represent an individual
852
00:38:42.610 --> 00:38:45.770
with these rules and policies that were in place.
853
00:38:45.770 --> 00:38:48.063
So I think it frustrated everyone.
854
00:38:48.063 --> 00:38:49.100
And you would hear stories of,
855
00:38:49.100 --> 00:38:50.880
I mean, after awhile, it just became,
856
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:52.860
we would just, you would just have to laugh at it
857
00:38:52.860 --> 00:38:55.390
because it just became, you know,
858
00:38:55.390 --> 00:38:57.760
what's the most craziest story?
859
00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:01.210
And every time you thought you reached the bottom,
860
00:39:01.210 --> 00:39:04.150
there was always a new bottom.
861
00:39:04.150 --> 00:39:06.537
Did you say that you couldn't talk about
862
00:39:06.537 --> 00:39:07.674
sports events?
863
00:39:07.674 --> 00:39:09.330
You weren't supposed to talk about anything
864
00:39:09.330 --> 00:39:11.425
that was a current event.
865
00:39:11.425 --> 00:39:13.110
So, I remember the World Cup,
866
00:39:13.110 --> 00:39:15.223
I guess this was the '06 World Cup,
867
00:39:17.395 --> 00:39:19.410
and a lot of them were soccer fans
868
00:39:19.410 --> 00:39:22.600
and here I am trying to still build rapport
869
00:39:22.600 --> 00:39:25.607
and my client's asking me, so you know,
870
00:39:25.607 --> 00:39:26.440
he knew about the World Cup,
871
00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:28.077
how countries were doing and I'm thinking,
872
00:39:28.077 --> 00:39:31.790
"Okay, how can I kind of, how does this fit into your case
873
00:39:31.790 --> 00:39:33.520
if we talk about the World Cup?"
874
00:39:33.520 --> 00:39:35.580
And but, back of my mind, it felt,
875
00:39:35.580 --> 00:39:40.580
everything I did was within the realm of the case
876
00:39:41.060 --> 00:39:44.970
of building rapport, that's part of representing a client.
877
00:39:44.970 --> 00:39:46.750
So, if talking about the World Cup
878
00:39:46.750 --> 00:39:48.600
is gonna help bring down those walls
879
00:39:48.600 --> 00:39:51.750
so I can talk about other more crucial issues,
880
00:39:51.750 --> 00:39:53.900
then I'm gonna talk about the World Cup
881
00:39:53.900 --> 00:39:56.960
and if anyone asks me, "Why are you talking about
882
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:57.793
the World Cup?"
883
00:39:57.793 --> 00:39:59.630
I'm gonna say because in order for me
884
00:39:59.630 --> 00:40:01.460
to be able to represent my client,
885
00:40:01.460 --> 00:40:05.450
bring down the walls, talk about more essential issues,
886
00:40:05.450 --> 00:40:08.570
that rapport has to be there.
887
00:40:08.570 --> 00:40:13.040
Yeah, you, and depending who you talked to that day,
888
00:40:13.040 --> 00:40:16.130
you would get different responses.
889
00:40:16.130 --> 00:40:18.223
I mean, there was one occasion where,
890
00:40:19.080 --> 00:40:21.980
one of the requirements in the military for females
891
00:40:21.980 --> 00:40:23.480
is that when you're in uniform,
892
00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:26.100
your hair has to be above your collar line,
893
00:40:26.100 --> 00:40:29.920
so that means you have to wear bobby pins in or hair bands.
894
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.390
And I had hair bands and now, I had been down
895
00:40:32.390 --> 00:40:36.163
to Guantanamo a good dozen time with hair band in my hair,
896
00:40:37.370 --> 00:40:39.661
I come to the gate and, you know,
897
00:40:39.661 --> 00:40:43.370
you get wand and everything, and I wouldn't wear bobby pins,
898
00:40:43.370 --> 00:40:45.390
I would normally just wear rubber hair bands
899
00:40:45.390 --> 00:40:46.750
to hold up my hair.
900
00:40:46.750 --> 00:40:49.220
And the guard was going through my bag
901
00:40:49.220 --> 00:40:50.090
'cause he went through your bag,
902
00:40:50.090 --> 00:40:53.180
they rubbed, put, opened up every single part of your bag,
903
00:40:53.180 --> 00:40:55.263
put their hand in the bag, make sure you didn't,
904
00:40:55.263 --> 00:40:57.460
weren't carrying files and, I guess to give to your client
905
00:40:57.460 --> 00:40:59.900
to try and escape from Guantanamo,
906
00:40:59.900 --> 00:41:02.200
and he comes across a little hair band,
907
00:41:02.200 --> 00:41:04.587
a black hair band and he's looking at it like,
908
00:41:04.587 --> 00:41:08.080
"Oh my God, another weapons of mass destruction"
909
00:41:08.080 --> 00:41:10.350
and he looks to the other guard, the senior guard
910
00:41:10.350 --> 00:41:12.187
and said, "What do I do with this?"
911
00:41:12.187 --> 00:41:14.460
And I say to him, "It's a hair band."
912
00:41:14.460 --> 00:41:16.680
He says, "You can't carry this in, it's contraband."
913
00:41:16.680 --> 00:41:18.880
I'm going, and I made the mistake
914
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:21.420
'cause I wasn't thinking, I think I grabbed it from him
915
00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:22.660
'cause I was just gonna put it in my hair,
916
00:41:22.660 --> 00:41:24.610
like, if I can't carry it in in my bag,
917
00:41:24.610 --> 00:41:25.770
I'll just put it in my hair,
918
00:41:25.770 --> 00:41:27.610
he says, "You can't take that in."
919
00:41:27.610 --> 00:41:29.440
So, I take it out of my hair and I give it back to him,
920
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:32.130
I said, "But I have others in my hair."
921
00:41:32.130 --> 00:41:34.490
And now he's confused, he's like,
922
00:41:34.490 --> 00:41:37.070
so, at that point, there was a JAG officer
923
00:41:37.070 --> 00:41:39.950
from the legal office there, he's looking over at her
924
00:41:39.950 --> 00:41:42.120
as if, "Okay, what do I do?"
925
00:41:42.120 --> 00:41:45.490
And I said, "Okay, I can take the rest of them out
926
00:41:45.490 --> 00:41:48.060
of my hair, but then I'll be out of regulation
927
00:41:48.060 --> 00:41:50.350
'cause my hair's gonna fall down below my collar,
928
00:41:50.350 --> 00:41:52.510
so either I can be out of uniform
929
00:41:52.510 --> 00:41:54.840
or I can keep the bands in my hair."
930
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:56.707
The JAG officer says to him,
931
00:41:56.707 --> 00:41:59.205
"Ask her how many she has in her hair
932
00:41:59.205 --> 00:42:00.100
and make sure she brings the same number
933
00:42:00.100 --> 00:42:01.317
of hair bands out."
934
00:42:02.410 --> 00:42:04.277
So, I look at her, I look at him
935
00:42:04.277 --> 00:42:07.170
and he asked, "How many do you have in your hair?"
936
00:42:07.170 --> 00:42:09.140
I don't know how many I have in my hair,
937
00:42:09.140 --> 00:42:11.640
I wasn't counting my hair band that morning,
938
00:42:11.640 --> 00:42:13.280
so I said, "About two or three."
939
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:15.900
So, he said, "Okay," so he writes two or three down.
940
00:42:15.900 --> 00:42:18.157
That evening when I go out, they ask me,
941
00:42:18.157 --> 00:42:20.400
"How many hair bands do you still have in your hair?"
942
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.360
I said, "About two or three,"
943
00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:24.640
as if I'm gonna take a hair band out
944
00:42:24.640 --> 00:42:26.040
and leave it with my client.
945
00:42:26.040 --> 00:42:27.490
I don't know what he would do with it,
946
00:42:27.490 --> 00:42:30.910
he doesn't have any hair, maybe tie up
947
00:42:30.910 --> 00:42:33.503
the front of his beard with it, I don't know.
948
00:42:34.921 --> 00:42:37.720
It was that type of nonsense that you dealt with
949
00:42:37.720 --> 00:42:39.101
all the time.
950
00:42:39.101 --> 00:42:40.200
So we would come back with different stories all the time
951
00:42:40.200 --> 00:42:43.573
of whose story could be the last story?
952
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:47.600
So, can you take this further
953
00:42:47.600 --> 00:42:50.850
as to do you finally get to a trial with Mohamed
954
00:42:50.850 --> 00:42:53.440
or do you, is there something between your first visit
955
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:55.500
and the trial that you want to share?
956
00:42:55.500 --> 00:42:58.660
Yes, after I met Mr. Mohamed,
957
00:42:58.660 --> 00:43:02.390
I probably met with him about one or two other times
958
00:43:02.390 --> 00:43:06.950
in preparation for a hearing in April 2006.
959
00:43:06.950 --> 00:43:09.430
And prior to this April hearing,
960
00:43:09.430 --> 00:43:12.190
Clive had brought to my attention
961
00:43:12.190 --> 00:43:16.550
that he thought there was some ethical problems with the,
962
00:43:16.550 --> 00:43:19.730
in which the way the Office of Military Commissions
963
00:43:19.730 --> 00:43:21.653
was established because we had,
964
00:43:22.530 --> 00:43:24.150
all the attorneys pretty much worked
965
00:43:24.150 --> 00:43:26.527
in the same small office in D.C.,
966
00:43:28.060 --> 00:43:31.050
at least six of the 10, if I have the numbers correct,
967
00:43:31.050 --> 00:43:33.860
of the first 10 detainees they were gonna try
968
00:43:33.860 --> 00:43:36.670
were named in each others' charge sheet
969
00:43:36.670 --> 00:43:39.050
and on the way that the office was set up,
970
00:43:39.050 --> 00:43:41.240
the chief defense attorney had a privilege
971
00:43:41.240 --> 00:43:43.320
with each of the other 10 attorneys,
972
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:47.140
so we were trying to point out to individuals,
973
00:43:47.140 --> 00:43:49.020
this is gonna cause ethical problems,
974
00:43:49.020 --> 00:43:51.680
particularly for anyone who wants to cut a deal
975
00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:55.150
with the government and they have to now testify
976
00:43:55.150 --> 00:43:57.920
against anyone else, for all the attorneys to represent,
977
00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:00.213
to be in the small same office,
978
00:44:00.213 --> 00:44:03.950
will probably be a ethical conflict.
979
00:44:03.950 --> 00:44:08.790
And so, we knew we had to raise a ethical,
980
00:44:08.790 --> 00:44:13.120
the ethical issue in the office.
981
00:44:13.120 --> 00:44:16.420
And so we had a hearing in April of 2006
982
00:44:16.420 --> 00:44:19.380
and we knew this hearing was coming up
983
00:44:19.380 --> 00:44:21.400
and one of the issues we were gonna raise
984
00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:24.640
was the ethical concerns we had
985
00:44:24.640 --> 00:44:26.590
with the way the Office of Military Commissions
986
00:44:26.590 --> 00:44:28.900
was set up, the fact that all these individuals
987
00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:32.213
were co-conspirators, or co-conspirators
988
00:44:32.213 --> 00:44:33.730
in this big conspiracy, 'cause everyone was charged
989
00:44:33.730 --> 00:44:36.070
with this conspiracy of being part of Al-Qaeda,
990
00:44:36.070 --> 00:44:38.630
of knowing Bin Laden, knowing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,
991
00:44:38.630 --> 00:44:40.380
all being in the same safe house,
992
00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:42.580
it was absolutely madness.
993
00:44:42.580 --> 00:44:44.790
And meanwhile, you have attorneys in the office
994
00:44:44.790 --> 00:44:48.050
because we're all learning the ropes of this, of talking.
995
00:44:48.050 --> 00:44:51.010
So, and I feel bad because I was in the office
996
00:44:51.010 --> 00:44:53.410
because once we identified the ethical issue,
997
00:44:53.410 --> 00:44:56.120
I had to show that this was an actual conflict
998
00:44:56.120 --> 00:44:57.420
because attorneys in the office
999
00:44:57.420 --> 00:44:58.870
were talking about their clients,
1000
00:44:58.870 --> 00:45:00.260
what you talk about your client,
1001
00:45:00.260 --> 00:45:01.300
if it's gonna help my client,
1002
00:45:01.300 --> 00:45:04.890
I have to go in and talk to my client about "I know this."
1003
00:45:04.890 --> 00:45:07.440
I mean, it was gonna be a absolute nightmare.
1004
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.560
And some attorneys talked a little bit more freer
1005
00:45:09.560 --> 00:45:11.480
than others about their clients.
1006
00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:14.618
I had one attorney come in and said,
1007
00:45:14.618 --> 00:45:16.670
and said to me, "I know your client is a bad guy
1008
00:45:16.670 --> 00:45:18.300
'cause my client already told me
1009
00:45:18.300 --> 00:45:21.510
your client's a bad guy, my client, you know,
1010
00:45:21.510 --> 00:45:22.630
he's a innocent individual,"
1011
00:45:22.630 --> 00:45:26.347
and I'm going, "Why are you sitting here telling me this?"
1012
00:45:26.347 --> 00:45:27.680
"Your client is particularly named
1013
00:45:27.680 --> 00:45:29.740
in my client's charge sheet and I know my client
1014
00:45:29.740 --> 00:45:31.810
is named in your client's charge sheet,
1015
00:45:31.810 --> 00:45:34.020
us having this conversation, we're probably crossing
1016
00:45:34.020 --> 00:45:35.870
all these ethical lines."
1017
00:45:35.870 --> 00:45:39.430
So, I was keeping a notebook of all these conversations
1018
00:45:39.430 --> 00:45:41.260
that were happening in the office
1019
00:45:41.260 --> 00:45:43.930
to establish later on at the hearing
1020
00:45:43.930 --> 00:45:47.160
how this potential ethical violations,
1021
00:45:47.160 --> 00:45:50.010
how anything I could say to the Chief Defense Counsel,
1022
00:45:50.010 --> 00:45:53.010
you know, he's representing, has a privilege
1023
00:45:53.010 --> 00:45:55.730
to all 10 of the other attorneys in the office,
1024
00:45:55.730 --> 00:45:58.640
this is gonna be a ethical nightmare
1025
00:45:58.640 --> 00:46:00.153
of a conflict of interest.
1026
00:46:01.340 --> 00:46:04.980
So when we go into the April 2006 hearing,
1027
00:46:04.980 --> 00:46:07.060
I had met Mr. Mohamed two or three times,
1028
00:46:07.060 --> 00:46:10.010
we told him about the ethical issue
1029
00:46:10.873 --> 00:46:11.706
and so it was one of the first things
1030
00:46:11.706 --> 00:46:15.680
I knew we would have to raise at the April 2006 hearing.
1031
00:46:15.680 --> 00:46:17.350
Now, that hearing was designed
1032
00:46:17.350 --> 00:46:20.190
not to hear my ethical issue,
1033
00:46:20.190 --> 00:46:23.780
it was really designed to, just to get his guilty plea
1034
00:46:23.780 --> 00:46:28.393
on the book, it was more of a pretrial type of hearing.
1035
00:46:29.380 --> 00:46:32.770
However, what end up happening was
1036
00:46:32.770 --> 00:46:36.410
at that April 2006 hearing, when I tried to raise
1037
00:46:36.410 --> 00:46:41.190
the ethical issue, the, I think they were called
1038
00:46:41.190 --> 00:46:43.600
presiding judges at the time,
1039
00:46:43.600 --> 00:46:46.160
I'm not sure if they were just called judges at the time
1040
00:46:46.160 --> 00:46:47.810
or presiding officer, I think they were called
1041
00:46:47.810 --> 00:46:50.020
presiding officer, the PO, I think,
1042
00:46:50.020 --> 00:46:55.020
is what they were known as, pretty much the judge,
1043
00:46:55.350 --> 00:46:58.200
when I tried to raise the ethical issue
1044
00:46:58.200 --> 00:47:01.763
in front of the judge, he just didn't want to hear it.
1045
00:47:02.992 --> 00:47:04.770
He was like, you know, "Major Bradley,"
1046
00:47:04.770 --> 00:47:07.367
I was a major at the time, he said,
1047
00:47:07.367 --> 00:47:09.400
"Major Bradley, I know you believe
1048
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:12.120
you have a ethical violation,
1049
00:47:12.120 --> 00:47:17.010
but I'm not gonna really hear this issue at the time,"
1050
00:47:17.010 --> 00:47:20.590
'cause he believed it was more in my head
1051
00:47:20.590 --> 00:47:22.220
that there was a ethical violation
1052
00:47:22.220 --> 00:47:24.350
when I'm trying to say, "No, this is, like,
1053
00:47:24.350 --> 00:47:26.450
a motion, I'm letting you know
1054
00:47:26.450 --> 00:47:29.430
there's a ethical violation, a ethical problem
1055
00:47:29.430 --> 00:47:32.090
with the office and until this ethical situation
1056
00:47:32.090 --> 00:47:35.770
gets resolved, I don't think I can represent Mr. Mohamed."
1057
00:47:35.770 --> 00:47:38.223
And he clearly did not want to hear this.
1058
00:47:39.210 --> 00:47:40.840
So, as I said, that April hearing
1059
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:43.420
was just to be let's get through the script,
1060
00:47:43.420 --> 00:47:45.180
which Clive was really surprised about
1061
00:47:45.180 --> 00:47:48.300
'cause there's actually script of what you say
1062
00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:50.400
or what the defense counsel says,
1063
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:52.700
what the prosecution says, what the judge says,
1064
00:47:52.700 --> 00:47:57.270
and so, you're supposed to go line by line down this script.
1065
00:47:57.270 --> 00:48:01.450
And this isn't on the script that you've raised these issues
1066
00:48:01.450 --> 00:48:04.340
about there's a ethical concern
1067
00:48:04.340 --> 00:48:05.800
in the structure of the office.
1068
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:09.610
So I think the judge did not want to hear it at the time
1069
00:48:09.610 --> 00:48:12.140
because all he wants to do is get the guilty plea
1070
00:48:12.140 --> 00:48:15.210
on the record and now you have counsel saying,
1071
00:48:15.210 --> 00:48:19.580
military counsel, by rules, detainee has to be represented
1072
00:48:19.580 --> 00:48:22.040
by military defense counsel and now you have
1073
00:48:22.040 --> 00:48:24.014
a military defense counsel saying,
1074
00:48:24.014 --> 00:48:25.700
"Hey, I'm not sure if he has counsel
1075
00:48:25.700 --> 00:48:27.890
because I'm not sure ethically
1076
00:48:27.890 --> 00:48:29.653
if I can represent this individual
1077
00:48:29.653 --> 00:48:32.210
'til we have a ruling on what I believe
1078
00:48:32.210 --> 00:48:34.500
is a ethical violation."
1079
00:48:34.500 --> 00:48:36.610
And the judge's response to that,
1080
00:48:36.610 --> 00:48:41.610
instead of saying, "Well let's hear your argument on it,"
1081
00:48:41.630 --> 00:48:44.920
he tells, he says, "Major Bradley, I'm giving you an order
1082
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:47.680
that you will represent Mr. Mohamed."
1083
00:48:47.680 --> 00:48:50.820
And I'm saying, "I don't think you ordering me
1084
00:48:50.820 --> 00:48:53.870
is gonna resolve what may be an ethical concern
1085
00:48:53.870 --> 00:48:56.050
that I'm trying to raise with the court."
1086
00:48:56.050 --> 00:48:58.870
And he made it very clear, you know,
1087
00:48:58.870 --> 00:49:03.850
emphasizing my title, "Major, you understand what a order is
1088
00:49:03.850 --> 00:49:07.840
and you know you violate a order at your own peril."
1089
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.620
Soon as I heard those words, I knew,
1090
00:49:10.620 --> 00:49:13.940
wow, he's just gonna force me on,
1091
00:49:13.940 --> 00:49:16.300
not based on ruling or anything,
1092
00:49:16.300 --> 00:49:18.780
but based on a military order from the bench,
1093
00:49:18.780 --> 00:49:21.760
we are in a courtroom, so if we're gonna run this
1094
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:24.867
in a judicial fashion, you could say,
1095
00:49:24.867 --> 00:49:26.240
"You could find me in contempt of court
1096
00:49:26.240 --> 00:49:28.900
if you think I'm pushing the court too far
1097
00:49:28.900 --> 00:49:31.840
or you can make a ruling and rule against me,"
1098
00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:33.993
but to say you're just ordering me,
1099
00:49:35.168 --> 00:49:36.770
and he said, "I'm a colonel, you're a major"
1100
00:49:36.770 --> 00:49:39.490
type of thing, "You know what a order is,"
1101
00:49:39.490 --> 00:49:43.310
that's when I realize I'm between a rock and a hard place.
1102
00:49:43.310 --> 00:49:48.310
And at that point, you know, Clive wisely took a recess
1103
00:49:49.150 --> 00:49:51.490
and told the judge we need to discuss
1104
00:49:51.490 --> 00:49:53.120
what we're gonna do next.
1105
00:49:53.120 --> 00:49:54.230
Had you ever heard of a situation
1106
00:49:54.230 --> 00:49:58.590
where a judge will order a JAG or anybody else
1107
00:49:58.590 --> 00:50:02.170
in the courtroom in a, similar to what you just described?
1108
00:50:02.170 --> 00:50:04.620
I had never been in that type of situation,
1109
00:50:04.620 --> 00:50:08.160
I've never known, normally what would happen,
1110
00:50:08.160 --> 00:50:10.250
I mean, and I've done plenty of court marshals,
1111
00:50:10.250 --> 00:50:12.210
I've been in plenty of courtrooms,
1112
00:50:12.210 --> 00:50:13.750
normally, a judge would make a ruling
1113
00:50:13.750 --> 00:50:15.010
and they'll make negative rulings
1114
00:50:15.010 --> 00:50:16.530
and make sure they put negative facts
1115
00:50:16.530 --> 00:50:19.830
all over the record to cover themselves,
1116
00:50:19.830 --> 00:50:23.183
and from a judicial point and from a litigation point,
1117
00:50:24.040 --> 00:50:26.060
to make sure that they make a ruling
1118
00:50:26.060 --> 00:50:27.940
and then once you have the ruling,
1119
00:50:27.940 --> 00:50:29.820
you know, you press on.
1120
00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:32.610
Now you have a issue for appeal
1121
00:50:32.610 --> 00:50:34.880
if you think the ruling is wrong.
1122
00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:36.690
But the fact was I was surprised
1123
00:50:36.690 --> 00:50:38.950
because he wasn't even making a ruling,
1124
00:50:38.950 --> 00:50:41.240
he pretty much said, "I know you think
1125
00:50:41.240 --> 00:50:44.510
you have a ethical issue, but we're pressing on
1126
00:50:44.510 --> 00:50:47.610
and we're pressing on by me ordering you to press on
1127
00:50:47.610 --> 00:50:49.180
versus making a ruling."
1128
00:50:49.180 --> 00:50:51.660
Now, I would've understood very well
1129
00:50:51.660 --> 00:50:53.787
if the judge had said to me,
1130
00:50:53.787 --> 00:50:58.650
"Okay, I read your motion, I'm denying your motion
1131
00:50:58.650 --> 00:51:00.960
and you will represent Mr. Mohamed
1132
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:03.290
'cause I don't think there's a ethical issue here,"
1133
00:51:03.290 --> 00:51:04.700
that'd have been a different story,
1134
00:51:04.700 --> 00:51:07.440
but that's not what happened here.
1135
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:11.360
What happened was he did not want to hear the ethical issue
1136
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:16.360
and I had a 20 page opinion from the top ethics professor
1137
00:51:17.010 --> 00:51:18.670
in Pennsylvania.
1138
00:51:18.670 --> 00:51:21.260
My bar was beautiful, my bar,
1139
00:51:21.260 --> 00:51:23.630
when I went to my Bar Association about this issue,
1140
00:51:23.630 --> 00:51:25.420
they were the one who told me I needed
1141
00:51:25.420 --> 00:51:30.420
to get a expert on opinion, which I did,
1142
00:51:31.758 --> 00:51:32.890
I actually initially paid for the expert
1143
00:51:32.890 --> 00:51:36.510
out of my own pocket, but I thought that was important
1144
00:51:36.510 --> 00:51:39.010
for us to go in there at least prepared
1145
00:51:39.010 --> 00:51:41.180
with an opinion, with a 20 page opinion
1146
00:51:41.180 --> 00:51:44.310
stating all the problems in the structure
1147
00:51:44.310 --> 00:51:47.150
of the Office of Military Commissions defense
1148
00:51:47.150 --> 00:51:49.330
with these co-conspirators being represented
1149
00:51:49.330 --> 00:51:52.270
by these 10 attorneys all working,
1150
00:51:52.270 --> 00:51:54.310
most of them working in the same office,
1151
00:51:54.310 --> 00:51:56.020
all working for the same boss
1152
00:51:56.020 --> 00:51:57.960
who had privileges with each of these attorneys
1153
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:00.640
and each, most of these individuals
1154
00:52:00.640 --> 00:52:05.350
being specifically named in each others' charge sheet.
1155
00:52:05.350 --> 00:52:08.080
So it was very clear, I think, there was a ethical issue,
1156
00:52:08.080 --> 00:52:09.910
I don't think they wanted to do with it
1157
00:52:09.910 --> 00:52:11.780
and the way for them to deal with it
1158
00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:15.740
was to ignore it and just, as attorneys,
1159
00:52:15.740 --> 00:52:18.640
think we're soldiers, yes, sir, salute
1160
00:52:18.640 --> 00:52:21.890
and march to whatever that you stated.
1161
00:52:21.890 --> 00:52:23.830
Is his order in the record?
1162
00:52:23.830 --> 00:52:26.280
Will that be recorded that he gives you an order?
1163
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:28.208
Yes, it's all in the record.
1164
00:52:28.208 --> 00:52:29.791
I go back and I read that transcript now
1165
00:52:29.791 --> 00:52:31.930
and part of me wanted to laugh,
1166
00:52:31.930 --> 00:52:35.650
part of me wants to cry, it's almost comical
1167
00:52:35.650 --> 00:52:38.620
that the whole transcript of what happened
1168
00:52:38.620 --> 00:52:40.110
on that hearing on the sixth of April.
1169
00:52:40.110 --> 00:52:42.890
Can someone appeal an order like that?
1170
00:52:45.966 --> 00:52:48.880
It could possibly be a interlocutory appeal
1171
00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:50.910
and I don't think the system at Guantanamo
1172
00:52:50.910 --> 00:52:53.970
was set up to even, at the time when they had
1173
00:52:53.970 --> 00:52:56.683
the first hearings, they didn't even a appellate,
1174
00:52:57.750 --> 00:53:01.150
they had a appellate process sort of written in policy,
1175
00:53:01.150 --> 00:53:04.590
but there was no one sitting on any appellate board
1176
00:53:04.590 --> 00:53:07.030
at the time 'cause I don't think they had even bothered
1177
00:53:07.030 --> 00:53:12.030
to set up in the actual individuals who were appointed
1178
00:53:13.470 --> 00:53:15.610
in the appellate system, so it would've caused
1179
00:53:15.610 --> 00:53:18.450
all sorts of havoc if they allowed us
1180
00:53:18.450 --> 00:53:23.450
to take a interlocutory appeal on the issue.
1181
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:24.710
Okay, well let's go then
1182
00:53:24.710 --> 00:53:28.080
forward when you took a break with Clive,
1183
00:53:28.080 --> 00:53:29.390
what happened there?
1184
00:53:29.390 --> 00:53:31.903
Well, once I realized that the judge was giving me
1185
00:53:31.903 --> 00:53:35.213
a order and the way that he stated that, you know,
1186
00:53:35.213 --> 00:53:37.633
I would violate the order at my own peril,
1187
00:53:38.830 --> 00:53:41.850
Clive, as I said, wisely realized what was going on,
1188
00:53:41.850 --> 00:53:43.743
that this was about to be a railroad,
1189
00:53:44.923 --> 00:53:47.130
that we needed to take a recess.
1190
00:53:47.130 --> 00:53:51.330
So he asked the court for a recess
1191
00:53:51.330 --> 00:53:55.935
and during that recess, I think that we asked for, like,
1192
00:53:55.935 --> 00:53:59.570
a 15 minute recess, and I didn't realize how quickly
1193
00:54:00.604 --> 00:54:03.740
15 minutes could go and it was pretty much madness
1194
00:54:03.740 --> 00:54:07.040
as to what was gonna happen next.
1195
00:54:07.040 --> 00:54:11.140
We pulled both the Pennsylvania rules of responsibility,
1196
00:54:11.140 --> 00:54:13.840
we pulled the Air Force rules
1197
00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:16.610
and we're looking at the rules
1198
00:54:16.610 --> 00:54:18.930
to be able to present to the judge
1199
00:54:18.930 --> 00:54:22.460
that this was a conflict, if you look at
1200
00:54:22.460 --> 00:54:24.150
the professional rules, both for the state
1201
00:54:24.150 --> 00:54:28.170
and the Air Force, there was a conflict here
1202
00:54:28.170 --> 00:54:30.949
and I had to follow the Pennsylvania rules
1203
00:54:30.949 --> 00:54:32.000
because I was a Pennsylvania attorney.
1204
00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:34.010
But that, as I said, that, those 15 minutes
1205
00:54:34.010 --> 00:54:37.440
went really quick and then, I think it was Clive
1206
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:39.690
who suggested, "You might have to go in there
1207
00:54:39.690 --> 00:54:42.650
and raise your Fifth Amendment rights
1208
00:54:42.650 --> 00:54:44.240
if he's gonna force you on and you think
1209
00:54:44.240 --> 00:54:46.610
there's a ethical problem,"
1210
00:54:46.610 --> 00:54:49.460
because at this time you're in the heat of the battle,
1211
00:54:49.460 --> 00:54:51.800
this isn't going the way I thought it would go,
1212
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:53.150
I thought the judge would at least take it
1213
00:54:53.150 --> 00:54:55.330
under advisement, give me a ruling,
1214
00:54:55.330 --> 00:54:57.730
I realized that's not the way it's going,
1215
00:54:57.730 --> 00:55:01.850
we have 15 minutes to try to resolve what's gonna happen,
1216
00:55:01.850 --> 00:55:06.080
and I think bottom line was if he pressed on
1217
00:55:06.080 --> 00:55:08.890
to say that I would have represent Mr. Mohamed,
1218
00:55:08.890 --> 00:55:12.030
I felt that it was truly a ethical concern,
1219
00:55:12.030 --> 00:55:16.160
that I was violating my state bar's ethical rules,
1220
00:55:16.160 --> 00:55:19.840
I would have to go in there and plead the Fifth Amendment.
1221
00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:22.080
We call them Article 31s in the military,
1222
00:55:22.080 --> 00:55:24.333
but I think I went in as just,
1223
00:55:25.340 --> 00:55:26.500
we would have to plead the Fifth Amendment
1224
00:55:26.500 --> 00:55:29.750
because I knew individual would understand
1225
00:55:29.750 --> 00:55:30.980
what the Fifth Amendment was,
1226
00:55:30.980 --> 00:55:34.400
people wouldn't understand what Article 31 rights are,
1227
00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:37.450
which are the same as the Fifth Amendment in the military.
1228
00:55:37.450 --> 00:55:40.423
So when we come back from the recess,
1229
00:55:41.290 --> 00:55:44.490
the judge comes back and he starts asking me questions
1230
00:55:44.490 --> 00:55:47.110
and I tell him, I state to him initially,
1231
00:55:47.110 --> 00:55:49.670
you know, I do not represent Mr. Mohamed,
1232
00:55:49.670 --> 00:55:53.530
the ethical rule and the ethical concern I raised
1233
00:55:53.530 --> 00:55:57.770
has not been ruled upon, so if the judge is gonna ask,
1234
00:55:57.770 --> 00:56:00.690
if this court's gonna ask me any other questions,
1235
00:56:00.690 --> 00:56:02.970
I'll have to raise my Fifth Amendment rights.
1236
00:56:02.970 --> 00:56:06.380
And I think you could hear, probably, in the audience
1237
00:56:06.380 --> 00:56:09.100
a gasp, like (gasp), counsel raised
1238
00:56:09.100 --> 00:56:11.910
her Fifth Amendment rights in a court.
1239
00:56:11.910 --> 00:56:14.690
And I think it through the judge off
1240
00:56:14.690 --> 00:56:16.666
because he looked at me and he said,
1241
00:56:16.666 --> 00:56:18.350
"Major Bradley, I think you're misunderstanding
1242
00:56:18.350 --> 00:56:19.730
the use of the Fifth Amendment"
1243
00:56:19.730 --> 00:56:22.850
and I'm like, "No, I understand the use very well
1244
00:56:22.850 --> 00:56:26.190
because I'm not gonna commit what I think
1245
00:56:26.190 --> 00:56:29.590
is ethical violation of representing my client
1246
00:56:29.590 --> 00:56:31.900
when you have not ruled," I didn't say this to him,
1247
00:56:31.900 --> 00:56:32.817
but that's what I'm thinking,
1248
00:56:32.817 --> 00:56:35.180
"When you have not ruled on my,
1249
00:56:35.180 --> 00:56:38.030
on the issue, on the motion."
1250
00:56:38.030 --> 00:56:41.690
So, he continues to proceed with the hearing.
1251
00:56:41.690 --> 00:56:43.670
And now he's proceeding with the hearing
1252
00:56:43.670 --> 00:56:47.750
with me raising my Fifth Amendment rights,
1253
00:56:47.750 --> 00:56:51.210
with Clive and Joe Margulies, who were co-counsel
1254
00:56:51.210 --> 00:56:53.770
on the case at the time, they weren't counsel
1255
00:56:53.770 --> 00:56:56.370
because they had been established earlier,
1256
00:56:56.370 --> 00:56:58.940
they were just representing him as legal advisors,
1257
00:56:58.940 --> 00:57:01.050
but they were not his attorneys,
1258
00:57:01.050 --> 00:57:02.910
nor did they have to be his attorneys,
1259
00:57:02.910 --> 00:57:05.400
he could have legal advisors without having attorneys
1260
00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:09.130
because the rules only require military defense counsels,
1261
00:57:09.130 --> 00:57:11.550
so the only defense counsel Binyam had
1262
00:57:11.550 --> 00:57:14.120
in the courtroom that day was myself.
1263
00:57:14.120 --> 00:57:17.070
So as soon as I raised my Fifth Amendment rights,
1264
00:57:17.070 --> 00:57:19.920
Binyam was without counsel, which I don't think
1265
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.423
the judge realized when he continued on.
1266
00:57:23.410 --> 00:57:24.600
He continued on with the trial,
1267
00:57:24.600 --> 00:57:26.270
he continued on with this script,
1268
00:57:26.270 --> 00:57:29.290
so he and the prosecution are going back and forth
1269
00:57:29.290 --> 00:57:30.990
with their script, reading their script
1270
00:57:30.990 --> 00:57:32.070
and every time they would come
1271
00:57:32.070 --> 00:57:33.970
to where defense counsel, they had to ask
1272
00:57:33.970 --> 00:57:36.780
the defense counsel, I would remind the court,
1273
00:57:36.780 --> 00:57:39.040
I said, "I'm raising my Fifth Amendment rights,
1274
00:57:39.040 --> 00:57:40.860
I'm not answering any questions,"
1275
00:57:40.860 --> 00:57:43.360
and he would just skip on with that part of the script
1276
00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:45.740
and he and the defense, the prosecutor would go back
1277
00:57:45.740 --> 00:57:47.740
and read their part of the script
1278
00:57:47.740 --> 00:57:49.130
and they would finally get to the part
1279
00:57:49.130 --> 00:57:51.270
where Binyam has to plea.
1280
00:57:51.270 --> 00:57:52.797
And I'm looking at him like,
1281
00:57:52.797 --> 00:57:56.020
"How are you gonna accept a plea
1282
00:57:56.020 --> 00:57:59.560
when the individual is without counsel?"
1283
00:57:59.560 --> 00:58:02.333
And Clive's trying to, you know,
1284
00:58:03.168 --> 00:58:06.080
be diplomatic and remind the court,
1285
00:58:06.080 --> 00:58:08.410
"Binyam's without counsel, you know,
1286
00:58:08.410 --> 00:58:11.160
there's no way you can really take his plea,
1287
00:58:11.160 --> 00:58:13.160
he's without counsel."
1288
00:58:13.160 --> 00:58:16.563
They ignored Clive's very diplomatic way of trying to,
1289
00:58:17.530 --> 00:58:18.640
you know, get the court to recognize
1290
00:58:18.640 --> 00:58:21.130
you are going down a slippery slope here
1291
00:58:21.130 --> 00:58:24.370
of forcing this individual to take a plea
1292
00:58:24.370 --> 00:58:27.020
when there's no counsel representing him in the room.
1293
00:58:27.940 --> 00:58:30.600
But, I mean, they pushed through with it.
1294
00:58:30.600 --> 00:58:33.580
I mean, Binyam's, poor Binyam's sitting there
1295
00:58:33.580 --> 00:58:37.757
thinking, "What is this nonsense?"
1296
00:58:37.757 --> 00:58:39.207
"I don't have an attorney?"
1297
00:58:39.207 --> 00:58:40.550
"This one's pleading the fifth,
1298
00:58:40.550 --> 00:58:43.330
these two, you know, are only legal advisors,
1299
00:58:43.330 --> 00:58:44.940
I don't even want them at the table,"
1300
00:58:44.940 --> 00:58:47.340
which the judge forced them at the table,
1301
00:58:47.340 --> 00:58:50.920
I'll have to tell you about that, as well.
1302
00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:55.920
But, they end up taking a not guilty plea
1303
00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:58.380
because no one, at this point,
1304
00:58:58.380 --> 00:59:01.220
no one's representing Binyam, Binyam's not talking,
1305
00:59:01.220 --> 00:59:05.710
I'm not talking, I'm raising my Fifth Amendment rights
1306
00:59:05.710 --> 00:59:08.040
every time the judge asks me a question
1307
00:59:08.040 --> 00:59:11.359
and it was just absolute madness and.
1308
00:59:11.359 --> 00:59:12.810
What were you thinking?
1309
00:59:12.810 --> 00:59:15.677
I'm thinking, at this point, I'm thinking,
1310
00:59:15.677 --> 00:59:19.100
"How are you even proceeding with this
1311
00:59:19.100 --> 00:59:20.570
when he doesn't have counsel?"
1312
00:59:20.570 --> 00:59:24.290
I'm thinking, "Okay," and I could feel the judge
1313
00:59:24.290 --> 00:59:28.100
getting more upset as this was going on
1314
00:59:28.100 --> 00:59:31.380
because I'm not quite sure if he, again,
1315
00:59:31.380 --> 00:59:34.790
pressed upon me his order, but at some point
1316
00:59:34.790 --> 00:59:36.650
he must've said something again about
1317
00:59:36.650 --> 00:59:39.360
he was really ordering me to represent Mr. Mohamed
1318
00:59:40.281 --> 00:59:42.280
and the only thing I was pretty much saying at that point
1319
00:59:42.280 --> 00:59:45.890
was, "I'm raising my Fifth Amendment rights,"
1320
00:59:45.890 --> 00:59:47.380
and I think there was, at one point,
1321
00:59:47.380 --> 00:59:48.347
where he said to me, he said,
1322
00:59:48.347 --> 00:59:51.260
"Well, you told me you were gonna represent Mr. Mohamed, "
1323
00:59:51.260 --> 00:59:54.520
and I said, "Your Honor, that's not what I said,"
1324
00:59:54.520 --> 00:59:56.520
I said, "But you can go back in the transcript,
1325
00:59:56.520 --> 01:00:00.810
I told you that I would speak on his behalf if necessary,
1326
01:00:00.810 --> 01:00:03.310
but that Mr. Mohamed wanted to do a lot of,
1327
01:00:03.310 --> 01:00:04.840
really wanted to represent himself,"
1328
01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:06.599
and we went through that whole issue
1329
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:07.590
about him representing himself.
1330
01:00:07.590 --> 01:00:10.070
So I made it very clear, "I never told you
1331
01:00:10.070 --> 01:00:11.850
I was representing Mr. Mohamed
1332
01:00:11.850 --> 01:00:13.527
because we had this ethical issue."
1333
01:00:13.527 --> 01:00:15.990
"I said I would answer some questions on his behalf,
1334
01:00:15.990 --> 01:00:18.270
but I do not represent him."
1335
01:00:18.270 --> 01:00:22.610
And I think that was the only kind of dialogue we had
1336
01:00:22.610 --> 01:00:25.447
after the break, other than me saying,
1337
01:00:25.447 --> 01:00:27.447
"I'm raising my Fifth Amendment rights."
1338
01:00:29.288 --> 01:00:30.121
What happened then
1339
01:00:30.121 --> 01:00:30.954
at the end of the hearing?
1340
01:00:30.954 --> 01:00:32.860
Well, what happened at some point
1341
01:00:35.514 --> 01:00:40.230
is that I could tell the judge was getting upset
1342
01:00:40.230 --> 01:00:45.230
and, from what I can recall, and he needed to take a recess
1343
01:00:46.740 --> 01:00:48.860
and he said he was gonna take a 15 minute recess,
1344
01:00:48.860 --> 01:00:52.530
and I figured at that point, what was gonna happen
1345
01:00:52.530 --> 01:00:56.083
was that he was gonna go back and charge,
1346
01:00:56.083 --> 01:00:57.540
and write up charges against me, at least,
1347
01:00:57.540 --> 01:01:00.600
we have this mechanism in the military
1348
01:01:00.600 --> 01:01:04.020
we call Article 15, it's a non-traditional punishment
1349
01:01:04.020 --> 01:01:05.640
where you can have charges written up for you,
1350
01:01:05.640 --> 01:01:07.720
it's just short of a court marshal.
1351
01:01:07.720 --> 01:01:10.010
I'm thinking in my mind he's probably
1352
01:01:10.010 --> 01:01:12.920
gonna give me a Article 15, a non-traditional punishment
1353
01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:14.900
of some nature and draft up charges,
1354
01:01:14.900 --> 01:01:16.880
I'm thinking that's what he's gonna do
1355
01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:18.720
in those 15 minutes.
1356
01:01:18.720 --> 01:01:21.130
So, when he took this abrupt recess,
1357
01:01:21.130 --> 01:01:24.840
I'm thinking, "Okay, I'm gonna have charges up,
1358
01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:25.673
written up against me."
1359
01:01:25.673 --> 01:01:26.700
I'm not thinking court marshal,
1360
01:01:26.700 --> 01:01:28.900
I'm thinking he's gonna do something more quick
1361
01:01:28.900 --> 01:01:30.610
and, you know, Article 15 isn't as quick,
1362
01:01:30.610 --> 01:01:34.140
it's not as formal as a court marshal.
1363
01:01:34.140 --> 01:01:38.420
During that recess, I can hear members of the press
1364
01:01:38.420 --> 01:01:40.983
thinking, "Oh my God, this JAG's gonna get,"
1365
01:01:40.983 --> 01:01:43.680
they really thought I was gonna get locked up,
1366
01:01:43.680 --> 01:01:46.620
they thought that the NP's were gonna come,
1367
01:01:46.620 --> 01:01:48.910
lock me up, take me away 'cause I was violating
1368
01:01:48.910 --> 01:01:50.247
the judge order, I'm thinking,
1369
01:01:50.247 --> 01:01:51.640
"I'm not violating his order,
1370
01:01:51.640 --> 01:01:54.450
I'm just trying to represent my client,
1371
01:01:54.450 --> 01:01:57.650
I'm trying not to violate any ethical principles,
1372
01:01:57.650 --> 01:01:59.870
I'm trying to do what is right
1373
01:01:59.870 --> 01:02:04.870
and people believe that I'm gonna get locked up."
1374
01:02:04.900 --> 01:02:08.200
But I really thought, "Yes, they're probably gonna draft
1375
01:02:08.200 --> 01:02:09.840
some charges of some nature,"
1376
01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:13.670
and I knew for me, this wasn't the best thing for me
1377
01:02:13.670 --> 01:02:17.047
because I was gonna be meeting a promotion board
1378
01:02:17.047 --> 01:02:18.520
in the next month and the last thing I needed
1379
01:02:18.520 --> 01:02:20.130
in front of the promotion board,
1380
01:02:20.130 --> 01:02:22.870
the fact that I had charges, you know,
1381
01:02:22.870 --> 01:02:25.730
draft up against me or I had a Article 15 on the record
1382
01:02:25.730 --> 01:02:28.410
just before I was gonna get promoted,
1383
01:02:28.410 --> 01:02:31.660
which meant I wasn't gonna get promoted.
1384
01:02:31.660 --> 01:02:34.360
But I really thought charges of some nature
1385
01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:37.664
were gonna be drafted up against me.
1386
01:02:37.664 --> 01:02:41.463
And that 15 minutes ended up being two hours.
1387
01:02:42.680 --> 01:02:47.680
And I later found out afterwards, what happened
1388
01:02:47.700 --> 01:02:51.400
was that the Pentagon was listening in at some point
1389
01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:53.640
or I don't know if someone called back the Pentagon,
1390
01:02:53.640 --> 01:02:57.040
but I think part of the rumor was that
1391
01:02:57.040 --> 01:02:59.433
the Pentagon was listening in real time,
1392
01:03:00.370 --> 01:03:03.450
understood there was this conflict
1393
01:03:03.450 --> 01:03:05.920
and the last thing they wanted
1394
01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:09.460
was these hearings that they're trying to make legitimate
1395
01:03:09.460 --> 01:03:11.620
and seem like the real courts,
1396
01:03:11.620 --> 01:03:16.210
that their JAG was being either charged or locked up
1397
01:03:16.210 --> 01:03:18.600
or be thrown away in a brig for standing
1398
01:03:18.600 --> 01:03:21.550
on some ethical principles that she was asking the court
1399
01:03:21.550 --> 01:03:23.230
to try to resolve.
1400
01:03:23.230 --> 01:03:26.670
So, when the judge came in two hours later,
1401
01:03:26.670 --> 01:03:28.597
the first thing I thought he was gonna tell me,
1402
01:03:28.597 --> 01:03:30.530
"Major Bradley, stand up," I thought he was gonna
1403
01:03:30.530 --> 01:03:32.400
bring formal charges against me,
1404
01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:37.320
but he sits there, almost 180 degree change in demeanor,
1405
01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:39.220
saying, "Major Bradley, it seems to me
1406
01:03:39.220 --> 01:03:40.480
that you really believe there's,
1407
01:03:40.480 --> 01:03:43.950
you have a ethical violation and I'm gonna allow you time
1408
01:03:43.950 --> 01:03:47.340
to properly present this issue before the court."
1409
01:03:47.340 --> 01:03:48.837
And the first thing I'm thinking,
1410
01:03:48.837 --> 01:03:51.050
"Why couldn't we done this four hours ago
1411
01:03:51.050 --> 01:03:53.447
when I first brought the issue to you?"
1412
01:03:53.447 --> 01:03:58.447
"We have to go through this whole chaotic conflict
1413
01:03:58.910 --> 01:04:02.780
in open court of you pretty much ordering me
1414
01:04:02.780 --> 01:04:04.800
and trying to force me to committing
1415
01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:06.300
what I think is a ethical violation
1416
01:04:06.300 --> 01:04:08.070
where we could've said, 'Well, I need you
1417
01:04:08.070 --> 01:04:09.840
to raise it properly, I'll give you time
1418
01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:12.520
to bring in your witnesses to hear this issue,'"
1419
01:04:12.520 --> 01:04:15.760
but he sits there and says, "You know, we'll set the hearing
1420
01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:18.800
at some time in June of coming in,
1421
01:04:18.800 --> 01:04:21.800
providing me with evidence that you believe
1422
01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:24.180
that there's a ethical violation with the structure
1423
01:04:24.180 --> 01:04:26.050
of the Office of the Military Commissions."
1424
01:04:26.050 --> 01:04:29.960
And it was just, he was absolutely reasonable.
1425
01:04:29.960 --> 01:04:33.900
From before where he's ordering me and he's mad
1426
01:04:33.900 --> 01:04:36.910
and he's trying to force me to move on
1427
01:04:36.910 --> 01:04:39.830
without making a ruling, he now comes back
1428
01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:42.770
with calmness, with reasonableness,
1429
01:04:42.770 --> 01:04:46.280
with logic, you know, legal logic,
1430
01:04:46.280 --> 01:04:49.330
saying, "Hey, let's have this hearing."
1431
01:04:49.330 --> 01:04:51.403
I end up finding out that,
1432
01:04:54.810 --> 01:04:56.593
and I didn't see this at the time,
1433
01:04:57.470 --> 01:05:01.060
just before he took a recess that the bailiff came up to him
1434
01:05:01.060 --> 01:05:03.840
and handed him a note and allegedly on that note
1435
01:05:03.840 --> 01:05:06.813
was instructions telling him,
1436
01:05:07.727 --> 01:05:10.960
"Calm this down, take a recess
1437
01:05:10.960 --> 01:05:14.030
and let's kind of resolve this
1438
01:05:14.030 --> 01:05:18.007
before this gets any further out of hand."
1439
01:05:19.351 --> 01:05:21.350
And also, I didn't realize the extent of it
1440
01:05:21.350 --> 01:05:25.140
until I was talking to one of the PA people,
1441
01:05:25.140 --> 01:05:27.780
I think, for the Pentagon, who told me
1442
01:05:27.780 --> 01:05:30.720
that he had went out during the hearing
1443
01:05:30.720 --> 01:05:33.930
and called back the Pentagon and then said to the Pentagon
1444
01:05:33.930 --> 01:05:36.660
that one of your JAGS is about to get arrested here
1445
01:05:36.660 --> 01:05:37.930
in Guantanamo.
1446
01:05:37.930 --> 01:05:40.140
So everyone in the press court,
1447
01:05:40.140 --> 01:05:43.380
including the PA person for the Pentagon,
1448
01:05:43.380 --> 01:05:46.700
really thought that I was gonna get handcuffed out of there
1449
01:05:46.700 --> 01:05:50.150
and arrested because the hearing the entire day
1450
01:05:50.150 --> 01:05:54.290
with the judge was extremely, extremely tense.
1451
01:05:54.290 --> 01:05:55.840
We argued about everything.
1452
01:05:55.840 --> 01:06:00.020
We argued about Binyam's clothing
1453
01:06:00.020 --> 01:06:02.840
'cause Binyam came in in orange
1454
01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:05.060
because he wanted to come in in orange
1455
01:06:05.060 --> 01:06:08.100
because it represented how he had been held
1456
01:06:08.100 --> 01:06:10.880
for like five years at Guantanamo Bay.
1457
01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:12.790
Because they really expected him to come in
1458
01:06:12.790 --> 01:06:14.780
dressed in a suit and a tie
1459
01:06:14.780 --> 01:06:17.710
and play this whole theatrical game with them
1460
01:06:17.710 --> 01:06:21.630
and Binyam was like, "No, you've held me in chains in orange
1461
01:06:21.630 --> 01:06:24.960
for years, so when I first make my appearance
1462
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:27.250
in the world, pretty much, I want to come in
1463
01:06:27.250 --> 01:06:31.110
dressed as they have kept me in five years."
1464
01:06:31.110 --> 01:06:33.100
Now, so when Binyam came in with orange,
1465
01:06:33.100 --> 01:06:35.050
Binyam also asked to come in shackled,
1466
01:06:35.050 --> 01:06:37.400
he said, "You have shackled me for the last four years,
1467
01:06:37.400 --> 01:06:39.020
so when I present myself to the world,
1468
01:06:39.020 --> 01:06:41.870
I don't want to play this theatrical game
1469
01:06:41.870 --> 01:06:43.880
of I'm coming in with a suit and tie,
1470
01:06:43.880 --> 01:06:46.640
I want to come in as I have been kept
1471
01:06:46.640 --> 01:06:47.610
for four or five years."
1472
01:06:47.610 --> 01:06:50.200
So, we had made the request for him to be shackled,
1473
01:06:50.200 --> 01:06:52.090
of course, that wasn't gonna happen.
1474
01:06:52.090 --> 01:06:54.380
They were appalled that I even asked the question.
1475
01:06:54.380 --> 01:06:56.770
But I put on the record, "My client wants to come in here
1476
01:06:56.770 --> 01:06:59.370
dressed in orange and shackled."
1477
01:06:59.370 --> 01:07:02.840
So, he had on a orange shirt and we were in court
1478
01:07:02.840 --> 01:07:05.600
for at least two hours before the judge
1479
01:07:06.530 --> 01:07:11.530
asked me if I have read the rules on the dress code
1480
01:07:12.740 --> 01:07:17.370
for the court and I was like, "Yes, I have,"
1481
01:07:17.370 --> 01:07:19.840
and he wanted to know why would I allow my client
1482
01:07:19.840 --> 01:07:21.540
to come in in orange.
1483
01:07:21.540 --> 01:07:23.420
I said, "Well, there's nothing in the rules
1484
01:07:23.420 --> 01:07:24.960
that say he can't wear orange."
1485
01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:27.910
He said, "Well, now, you realize what orange means,"
1486
01:07:27.910 --> 01:07:29.920
and I was like, "Okay, what color
1487
01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:31.770
do you want him to come in?"
1488
01:07:31.770 --> 01:07:34.340
I said, "Can he come in brown because,"
1489
01:07:34.340 --> 01:07:37.400
he said, "Well, orange is the color the detainees wear."
1490
01:07:37.400 --> 01:07:39.140
I said, "Well, they also wear brown,
1491
01:07:39.140 --> 01:07:40.920
they also wear white, so are you saying
1492
01:07:40.920 --> 01:07:43.497
that he can't come in brown, orange or white?"
1493
01:07:43.497 --> 01:07:45.460
"Because that's not in the rules."
1494
01:07:45.460 --> 01:07:46.820
And that's where I think at one point
1495
01:07:46.820 --> 01:07:48.630
Binyam spoke up and said, "Well, yeah,
1496
01:07:48.630 --> 01:07:50.600
that's not in the rules, I mean, so,
1497
01:07:50.600 --> 01:07:51.977
why can't I wear this?"
1498
01:07:51.977 --> 01:07:53.360
"Now, is that a new policy?"
1499
01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:55.869
POMs, they used to call them POMs,
1500
01:07:55.869 --> 01:07:57.580
Presiding Officers Memorandums,
1501
01:07:57.580 --> 01:08:00.930
so he said, "Is that a new POM that we're now creating
1502
01:08:00.930 --> 01:08:04.230
that detainees can't come into court in orange,
1503
01:08:04.230 --> 01:08:06.930
brown or white?"
1504
01:08:06.930 --> 01:08:09.450
I mean, we fought over everything.
1505
01:08:09.450 --> 01:08:11.970
There was one point where the judge said to me,
1506
01:08:11.970 --> 01:08:15.397
he goes, something to the effect,
1507
01:08:15.397 --> 01:08:17.690
"Is there something that's amusing you?"
1508
01:08:17.690 --> 01:08:21.126
And I didn't know he was talking to me.
1509
01:08:21.126 --> 01:08:21.959
He said, "Is there something amusing you?"
1510
01:08:21.959 --> 01:08:23.790
And I almost turned around and looked behind me
1511
01:08:23.790 --> 01:08:25.340
to see who he was talking to,
1512
01:08:25.340 --> 01:08:26.880
but he was directing the question at me,
1513
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:29.837
and I was like, "No," and he said,
1514
01:08:29.837 --> 01:08:31.230
"Well, why do you have that smirk on your face?"
1515
01:08:31.230 --> 01:08:33.120
Now, I didn't realize I had a smirk on my face.
1516
01:08:33.120 --> 01:08:36.360
I guess a part of me, I was probably standing there
1517
01:08:36.360 --> 01:08:39.970
in bewilderment that this whole hearing was happening
1518
01:08:39.970 --> 01:08:44.860
the way it was occurring, it was just Alice in Wonderland.
1519
01:08:44.860 --> 01:08:46.410
So can you tell us then,
1520
01:08:46.410 --> 01:08:50.200
after the hearing ended and the judge, you know,
1521
01:08:50.200 --> 01:08:53.830
made 180 degree change, what happened after that?
1522
01:08:53.830 --> 01:08:56.800
Well, once he made that 180 degree change
1523
01:08:56.800 --> 01:09:01.800
and he came in and said that he was gonna have us,
1524
01:09:02.970 --> 01:09:06.930
allow the hearing, it was such a relief
1525
01:09:06.930 --> 01:09:09.057
off my shoulder because I realized,
1526
01:09:09.057 --> 01:09:11.893
"Okay, I'm not gonna get charges,
1527
01:09:11.893 --> 01:09:13.980
he's actually gonna let us to put on a hearing,"
1528
01:09:13.980 --> 01:09:17.380
it was almost anticlimactic because all day
1529
01:09:17.380 --> 01:09:21.560
it was just this level of elevated tension in the courtroom
1530
01:09:21.560 --> 01:09:23.340
and when he came in it was almost like
1531
01:09:23.340 --> 01:09:25.173
letting a vail out of-
1532
01:09:26.300 --> 01:09:28.655
Did you go to the hearing then?
1533
01:09:28.655 --> 01:09:31.380
Well, no, well, the hearing was set in June
1534
01:09:32.870 --> 01:09:34.700
and was set for a Monday in June.
1535
01:09:34.700 --> 01:09:37.161
That was because of the suicides,
1536
01:09:37.161 --> 01:09:37.994
it was postponed.
1537
01:09:37.994 --> 01:09:39.210
Correct, because of the suicides, it was postponed,
1538
01:09:39.210 --> 01:09:43.370
that weekend the suicides occurred
1539
01:09:43.370 --> 01:09:46.083
and the hearing was postponed.
1540
01:09:47.164 --> 01:09:48.020
And was it ever held?
1541
01:09:48.020 --> 01:09:49.680
It was never held because after that
1542
01:09:49.680 --> 01:09:53.310
was the Hamdan decision out of the Supreme Court
1543
01:09:53.310 --> 01:09:56.390
that had ruled the, unconstitutional,
1544
01:09:56.390 --> 01:09:58.220
the first set of commission hearings,
1545
01:09:58.220 --> 01:10:01.403
so they had to revamp after that.
1546
01:10:02.398 --> 01:10:04.280
Now, Mr. Mohamed was charged again
1547
01:10:04.280 --> 01:10:08.100
under the new set of military commission statute
1548
01:10:08.100 --> 01:10:11.750
that occurred in, I guess it was in October
1549
01:10:12.626 --> 01:10:14.090
or later that year in '06 after
1550
01:10:14.090 --> 01:10:17.140
the first set of commissions was ruled unconstitutional,
1551
01:10:17.140 --> 01:10:20.280
he got charged again, but that kind of reset
1552
01:10:20.280 --> 01:10:24.330
the calendar, so to speak, and we said
1553
01:10:24.330 --> 01:10:26.730
the whole proceedings, that anything that happened
1554
01:10:26.730 --> 01:10:29.710
prior to that was pretty much null and void
1555
01:10:29.710 --> 01:10:31.340
to a large extent.
1556
01:10:31.340 --> 01:10:32.930
And then you continued to represent him
1557
01:10:32.930 --> 01:10:34.880
until he was released?
1558
01:10:34.880 --> 01:10:38.880
I did and that was a decision that I had made
1559
01:10:40.027 --> 01:10:40.860
and I thought representing him
1560
01:10:40.860 --> 01:10:42.910
was in the best interest of Mr. Mohamed.
1561
01:10:42.910 --> 01:10:46.360
And I had several concerns because the other thing I saw
1562
01:10:46.360 --> 01:10:48.380
with the commissions, there were a lot of attorneys
1563
01:10:48.380 --> 01:10:49.840
jumping in and out.
1564
01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:52.391
Originally, the way the attorneys would come in,
1565
01:10:52.391 --> 01:10:53.470
they only had a one year commitment,
1566
01:10:53.470 --> 01:10:56.760
which I thought is totally insane
1567
01:10:56.760 --> 01:10:58.770
because it would take at least a year
1568
01:10:58.770 --> 01:11:01.340
to try to get involved in this case
1569
01:11:01.340 --> 01:11:04.890
to try to establish a rapport with the client.
1570
01:11:04.890 --> 01:11:08.270
And so, I thought it was important for Mr. Mohamed
1571
01:11:08.270 --> 01:11:10.510
that I try to be at least consistent,
1572
01:11:10.510 --> 01:11:12.480
he has consistent counsel throughout.
1573
01:11:12.480 --> 01:11:14.150
So, I made a obligation to myself,
1574
01:11:14.150 --> 01:11:16.670
even though it wasn't required by the military,
1575
01:11:16.670 --> 01:11:19.670
that I would try to represent him 'til the end
1576
01:11:19.670 --> 01:11:22.080
or until they told me that they were gonna put new counsel
1577
01:11:22.080 --> 01:11:26.340
on the case, so I continued to represent him.
1578
01:11:26.340 --> 01:11:27.800
And I also knew with Mr. Mohamed,
1579
01:11:27.800 --> 01:11:30.410
I felt that as difficult as it was
1580
01:11:30.410 --> 01:11:32.650
for me to establish any rapport with him,
1581
01:11:32.650 --> 01:11:35.830
and it took me months, if not years, to do so,
1582
01:11:35.830 --> 01:11:38.490
that if another attorney walked in there
1583
01:11:38.490 --> 01:11:40.120
and tried to establish the rapport,
1584
01:11:40.120 --> 01:11:41.500
it probably wouldn't have been there
1585
01:11:41.500 --> 01:11:43.700
or it would've taken a long time.
1586
01:11:43.700 --> 01:11:47.490
So, I just felt my own sense of obligation
1587
01:11:47.490 --> 01:11:51.683
in making sure that he tried to have one counsel throughout.
1588
01:11:53.110 --> 01:11:53.943
And so you stayed with him
1589
01:11:53.943 --> 01:11:56.178
until he was released at the end.
1590
01:11:56.178 --> 01:11:58.328
He was finally released in February 2009.
1591
01:12:00.911 --> 01:12:03.071
And do you feel you developed
1592
01:12:03.071 --> 01:12:05.483
a rapport with him by the time he left?
1593
01:12:06.920 --> 01:12:08.330
That's a really good question.
1594
01:12:08.330 --> 01:12:11.300
I would say yes because to a certain extent,
1595
01:12:11.300 --> 01:12:13.640
I think I was, I wouldn't say we were friends,
1596
01:12:13.640 --> 01:12:17.420
I think I was the only lifeline, consistent lifeline,
1597
01:12:17.420 --> 01:12:20.490
along with Clive, that he had,
1598
01:12:20.490 --> 01:12:25.110
but really, how do you establish a relationship
1599
01:12:25.110 --> 01:12:27.915
with someone who had been through
1600
01:12:27.915 --> 01:12:28.810
what Mr. Mohamed had been through?
1601
01:12:28.810 --> 01:12:31.950
I mean, psychologically, emotionally,
1602
01:12:31.950 --> 01:12:36.700
it's, I think I established as close of a relationship
1603
01:12:36.700 --> 01:12:39.780
as I could with him that I could allow
1604
01:12:39.780 --> 01:12:44.780
under such tremendous and chaotic situation.
1605
01:12:44.830 --> 01:12:47.250
And I don't really, in my opinion,
1606
01:12:47.250 --> 01:12:50.020
think it was really possible for anyone,
1607
01:12:50.020 --> 01:12:51.110
particularly in the military,
1608
01:12:51.110 --> 01:12:53.950
to establish an attorney-client relationship
1609
01:12:53.950 --> 01:12:57.150
with the individuals given the environment,
1610
01:12:57.150 --> 01:13:02.140
given the situation in which these individuals are held.
1611
01:13:02.140 --> 01:13:07.140
And I find, even in the best of times,
1612
01:13:07.470 --> 01:13:10.600
even in the real world, 'cause I believe,
1613
01:13:10.600 --> 01:13:13.240
I would call Guantanamo the Twilight Zone
1614
01:13:13.240 --> 01:13:15.580
because that's really what it operated in,
1615
01:13:15.580 --> 01:13:17.550
but even as a defense attorney,
1616
01:13:17.550 --> 01:13:20.270
at some point, you're able to establish a relationship,
1617
01:13:20.270 --> 01:13:22.090
sometimes you do, sometimes you don't,
1618
01:13:22.090 --> 01:13:24.180
but there's other mechanisms that help establish
1619
01:13:24.180 --> 01:13:26.700
that relationship with you and your client.
1620
01:13:26.700 --> 01:13:29.040
Such as, they can read about attorney
1621
01:13:29.040 --> 01:13:31.640
or read about who you are, either from families or friends
1622
01:13:31.640 --> 01:13:34.720
or from other attorneys or they have some kind of touch
1623
01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:37.070
with the media, some outside sources
1624
01:13:37.070 --> 01:13:40.500
to help them to kind of put things in perspective.
1625
01:13:40.500 --> 01:13:42.670
In Guantanamo, they didn't have that.
1626
01:13:42.670 --> 01:13:44.953
So, Binyam could never know about me.
1627
01:13:45.980 --> 01:13:49.060
For all he knew and many of these detainees knew,
1628
01:13:49.060 --> 01:13:50.090
every time we went down there,
1629
01:13:50.090 --> 01:13:52.630
this all could've been part of the same plot
1630
01:13:52.630 --> 01:13:56.830
of what got them arrested or picked up in the first place
1631
01:13:56.830 --> 01:13:59.150
and the game playing that always happened
1632
01:13:59.150 --> 01:14:01.710
and it was never any way to check
1633
01:14:01.710 --> 01:14:04.870
whether you were still in some kind of fantasy world,
1634
01:14:04.870 --> 01:14:07.890
the CIA or the FBI or the DOD,
1635
01:14:07.890 --> 01:14:09.680
or whether individuals were really representing
1636
01:14:09.680 --> 01:14:12.820
your best interest and it was never any other means
1637
01:14:12.820 --> 01:14:14.670
of trying to put that in perspective.
1638
01:14:15.524 --> 01:14:18.530
And that's what, the thing that always drove me crazy
1639
01:14:18.530 --> 01:14:20.330
with Guantanamo, among other things,
1640
01:14:20.330 --> 01:14:22.570
was there was never any true way
1641
01:14:22.570 --> 01:14:25.070
to establish an attorney-client relationship
1642
01:14:25.070 --> 01:14:28.840
because it was such a, I don't know how to describe
1643
01:14:28.840 --> 01:14:32.440
the environment, but it was such a toxic environment
1644
01:14:32.440 --> 01:14:34.110
that you had no other support.
1645
01:14:34.110 --> 01:14:35.580
You didn't have family support.
1646
01:14:35.580 --> 01:14:37.130
All those other things that I realized
1647
01:14:37.130 --> 01:14:38.610
'cause I had to reflect on this,
1648
01:14:38.610 --> 01:14:40.810
where my other clients who I represent
1649
01:14:40.810 --> 01:14:43.685
can have some kind of outlet of trying to check,
1650
01:14:43.685 --> 01:14:45.630
fact checked or get some kind of support
1651
01:14:45.630 --> 01:14:48.280
of, you know, do I trust this person or not,
1652
01:14:48.280 --> 01:14:50.460
is what this person's telling me true or not,
1653
01:14:50.460 --> 01:14:51.660
what is the law?
1654
01:14:51.660 --> 01:14:52.510
You had none of that.
1655
01:14:52.510 --> 01:14:54.190
Because there was no law in Guantanamo.
1656
01:14:54.190 --> 01:14:56.330
They were making up charges as they went,
1657
01:14:56.330 --> 01:14:58.877
they were making up policies as they went,
1658
01:14:58.877 --> 01:15:00.180
they were making up POMs as they went,
1659
01:15:00.180 --> 01:15:01.853
things were never the same.
1660
01:15:02.730 --> 01:15:06.120
And so when you have that constant chaotic environment,
1661
01:15:06.120 --> 01:15:08.520
how do you establish an attorney relation,
1662
01:15:08.520 --> 01:15:09.540
client relationship?
1663
01:15:09.540 --> 01:15:10.550
You don't.
1664
01:15:10.550 --> 01:15:12.490
And I think they use that to the,
1665
01:15:12.490 --> 01:15:14.780
I don't think it was necessarily by design,
1666
01:15:14.780 --> 01:15:18.560
but it got established and through that,
1667
01:15:18.560 --> 01:15:21.480
they expect us to really to try these individuals
1668
01:15:21.480 --> 01:15:23.550
and give them full and fair hearings?
1669
01:15:23.550 --> 01:15:26.280
I mean, it was, it was chaotic.
1670
01:15:26.280 --> 01:15:28.970
So no, I don't think, to a certain extent,
1671
01:15:28.970 --> 01:15:32.080
as much as I think I could establish
1672
01:15:32.080 --> 01:15:35.420
a relationship and a rapport with Mr. Mohamed,
1673
01:15:35.420 --> 01:15:37.330
I think we achieved it, but to do it
1674
01:15:37.330 --> 01:15:40.022
in a effective true way, I don't think
1675
01:15:40.022 --> 01:15:41.540
it could ever be done.
1676
01:15:41.540 --> 01:15:42.583
It couldn't be done by anyone?
1677
01:15:44.020 --> 01:15:47.110
I think it's difficult to have it really,
1678
01:15:47.110 --> 01:15:51.239
I think more and more it could probably be done
1679
01:15:51.239 --> 01:15:52.410
because I think the more they open up
1680
01:15:52.410 --> 01:15:55.840
and allow detainees to understand
1681
01:15:55.840 --> 01:15:58.160
really what's happening on the outside world
1682
01:15:58.160 --> 01:16:02.690
and have more family support and those type of things,
1683
01:16:02.690 --> 01:16:04.980
I think it will be easier to be done,
1684
01:16:04.980 --> 01:16:07.640
but I don't think it truly can be done,
1685
01:16:07.640 --> 01:16:11.838
given the environment because Guantanamo Bay
1686
01:16:11.838 --> 01:16:15.893
is still in its Twilight, Twilight Zone operations.
1687
01:16:16.775 --> 01:16:20.140
So, looking back, do you have some sense on
1688
01:16:21.140 --> 01:16:22.520
what happened the last nine years
1689
01:16:22.520 --> 01:16:25.173
about the rule of law in justice?
1690
01:16:27.450 --> 01:16:32.450
Well, I put it this way, I look at the rule of law
1691
01:16:32.740 --> 01:16:35.720
at Guantanamo and it has changed
1692
01:16:35.720 --> 01:16:37.260
and it allegedly changed for the better,
1693
01:16:37.260 --> 01:16:39.000
but I don't think the rule of law changed,
1694
01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:41.890
I think it's the package has changed
1695
01:16:41.890 --> 01:16:45.190
because I think when we went to the military commissions
1696
01:16:45.190 --> 01:16:48.320
the first time, there were no rule of law,
1697
01:16:48.320 --> 01:16:51.260
I mean, there was no sense of justice,
1698
01:16:51.260 --> 01:16:54.150
but they figure if they keep using the mantra,
1699
01:16:54.150 --> 01:16:57.090
full and fair justice, we're giving these guys courts,
1700
01:16:57.090 --> 01:16:59.120
that people will believe it.
1701
01:16:59.120 --> 01:17:03.710
And even in '06 when the new Military Commission Act
1702
01:17:03.710 --> 01:17:07.020
came in in '06, it was pretty much the same rules,
1703
01:17:07.020 --> 01:17:08.520
but it was just in a different package
1704
01:17:08.520 --> 01:17:10.654
and when you opened it up and you read it,
1705
01:17:10.654 --> 01:17:13.270
it's like, "I read this before, it's the same thing
1706
01:17:13.270 --> 01:17:16.300
we did before, but you just, I think you put a new package
1707
01:17:16.300 --> 01:17:18.370
and said it's the Military Commission Acts of '06
1708
01:17:18.370 --> 01:17:21.090
and tweaked it here, I'm just supposed to believe
1709
01:17:21.090 --> 01:17:23.390
that these things are really gonna be full and fair,
1710
01:17:23.390 --> 01:17:26.200
they're not, it's pretty much the same rules."
1711
01:17:26.200 --> 01:17:29.450
And I find that even today, it's new rules,
1712
01:17:29.450 --> 01:17:32.050
but the package has changed, you open it up
1713
01:17:32.050 --> 01:17:34.000
and it's the, you tweak it a little bit,
1714
01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:38.030
but it's the same nonsense and that's just my opinion.
1715
01:17:38.030 --> 01:17:40.970
I don't think, and it's, right now,
1716
01:17:40.970 --> 01:17:43.340
we're so far down the, this is so chaotic,
1717
01:17:43.340 --> 01:17:45.560
it's so messed up, even if you tried to start it
1718
01:17:45.560 --> 01:17:47.730
from the beginning, you can't.
1719
01:17:47.730 --> 01:17:51.640
And I think they used the same basic recipe
1720
01:17:51.640 --> 01:17:54.240
and either add something or subtract something,
1721
01:17:54.240 --> 01:17:56.020
but in the end, you get the same results,
1722
01:17:56.020 --> 01:17:57.990
it's the definition of insanity.
1723
01:17:57.990 --> 01:17:59.750
You know, you do the same thing over and over again
1724
01:17:59.750 --> 01:18:01.360
and expect different results,
1725
01:18:01.360 --> 01:18:04.440
you're not gonna get any different results in Guantanamo.
1726
01:18:04.440 --> 01:18:06.670
The rule of law has been so broken,
1727
01:18:06.670 --> 01:18:08.530
it was never really practiced down there
1728
01:18:08.530 --> 01:18:10.870
and I don't think it's been practiced,
1729
01:18:10.870 --> 01:18:13.650
I think, I probably shouldn't say this,
1730
01:18:13.650 --> 01:18:15.590
but I'm gonna say it, I think the Omar Carter case
1731
01:18:15.590 --> 01:18:17.410
was just travesty of justice.
1732
01:18:17.410 --> 01:18:20.940
I'm glad for Omar that he took what was the best deal,
1733
01:18:20.940 --> 01:18:24.990
but I think if you put that case in a real court
1734
01:18:24.990 --> 01:18:29.910
with real rules that you don't get the result
1735
01:18:29.910 --> 01:18:31.150
that you got.
1736
01:18:31.150 --> 01:18:33.150
And I think that's an example of how I think
1737
01:18:33.150 --> 01:18:38.150
this alleged rule of law in Guantanamo Bay is a farce.
1738
01:18:38.650 --> 01:18:39.780
So, as a lawyer for 20 years
1739
01:18:39.780 --> 01:18:43.167
before you went to Guantanamo, are you disappointed
1740
01:18:43.167 --> 01:18:46.810
in the legal system and do you think it's gonna get better?
1741
01:18:46.810 --> 01:18:49.630
I'm disappointed in Guantanamo, I'm not,
1742
01:18:49.630 --> 01:18:52.860
as far as the JAGs, I've been very proud
1743
01:18:52.860 --> 01:18:54.790
of my JAG brothers and sisters
1744
01:18:54.790 --> 01:18:59.290
because I see on both sides, both prosecutors and defense
1745
01:18:59.290 --> 01:19:02.917
have tried to stand by the rule of law.
1746
01:19:02.917 --> 01:19:07.620
And you have a situation where you've had prosecutors quit
1747
01:19:07.620 --> 01:19:11.840
their posts because they realize the injustice.
1748
01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:13.460
Now, you may have one prosecutor
1749
01:19:13.460 --> 01:19:16.078
and you might say, you can look at the individual
1750
01:19:16.078 --> 01:19:18.190
and say, well, maybe he had some personal issues,
1751
01:19:18.190 --> 01:19:19.837
but when you have the second one
1752
01:19:19.837 --> 01:19:23.441
and you have the third one, you have the fourth one,
1753
01:19:23.441 --> 01:19:25.830
you have the chief prosecutor,
1754
01:19:25.830 --> 01:19:28.740
you have another one who's one of the top prosecutors
1755
01:19:28.740 --> 01:19:31.140
who's handling five or six of your top cases,
1756
01:19:31.140 --> 01:19:34.540
when you have them all quit during different periods of time
1757
01:19:34.540 --> 01:19:39.180
and they all, once they quit the office or resign,
1758
01:19:39.180 --> 01:19:42.830
criticize the system, what more do you need?
1759
01:19:42.830 --> 01:19:46.080
And we're not talking about some crazy defense attorneys,
1760
01:19:46.080 --> 01:19:48.505
and even the defense attorneys,
1761
01:19:48.505 --> 01:19:49.701
you're talking about in the military,
1762
01:19:49.701 --> 01:19:52.455
you're talking about a relatively conservative number
1763
01:19:52.455 --> 01:19:54.650
of individuals who probably supported
1764
01:19:54.650 --> 01:19:56.550
the prior administration, the Bush Administration,
1765
01:19:56.550 --> 01:19:57.670
so you're not talking about
1766
01:19:57.670 --> 01:20:02.010
some left wing liberal radical from the '60 type of people,
1767
01:20:02.010 --> 01:20:03.630
which I think they thought some of the maybe
1768
01:20:03.630 --> 01:20:05.990
the civilian defense attorneys were,
1769
01:20:05.990 --> 01:20:08.210
you're talking about military defense attorneys
1770
01:20:08.210 --> 01:20:11.320
who are officers who have problems.
1771
01:20:11.320 --> 01:20:13.330
But when you're talking about the prosecutors
1772
01:20:13.330 --> 01:20:16.100
and you're talking about people that you trust
1773
01:20:16.100 --> 01:20:18.349
to represent these individuals,
1774
01:20:18.349 --> 01:20:19.937
and many of them came in there gung-ho thinking,
1775
01:20:19.937 --> 01:20:21.930
"Okay, we're gonna put some terrorists away,
1776
01:20:21.930 --> 01:20:24.650
we're gonna do it fairly, we're gonna get our fair trials,"
1777
01:20:24.650 --> 01:20:27.720
when you have those individuals quit one after another
1778
01:20:27.720 --> 01:20:31.100
over a period of years, the system is broken,
1779
01:20:31.100 --> 01:20:33.450
there is a problem and I don't think you can say it
1780
01:20:33.450 --> 01:20:36.930
any louder and any clearer when you have that,
1781
01:20:36.930 --> 01:20:40.460
when you have prosecutors, more than one,
1782
01:20:40.460 --> 01:20:43.150
a good half dozen, leaving.
1783
01:20:43.150 --> 01:20:45.790
And they are the ones who spoke up,
1784
01:20:45.790 --> 01:20:47.810
so you know if you have that many people speaking up,
1785
01:20:47.810 --> 01:20:49.300
you probably have many individuals
1786
01:20:49.300 --> 01:20:51.910
just going through and saying, "I can't wait
1787
01:20:51.910 --> 01:20:53.510
'til I get out of this office,
1788
01:20:53.510 --> 01:20:55.050
I just want to get this done with
1789
01:20:55.050 --> 01:20:57.500
so I can put this behind," so you probably have other people
1790
01:20:57.500 --> 01:21:00.720
behind the curtain, underneath the surface
1791
01:21:00.720 --> 01:21:03.670
who probably felt the same way, but just didn't speak up.
1792
01:21:03.670 --> 01:21:08.670
That should be a loud enough bell for America to wake up
1793
01:21:08.747 --> 01:21:11.730
and say, "Wow, what is happening at Guantanamo
1794
01:21:11.730 --> 01:21:14.410
that you would have prosecutors, you know, leave
1795
01:21:14.410 --> 01:21:16.080
in the numbers that they have left?"
1796
01:21:16.080 --> 01:21:18.860
Do you think Obama has noticed?
1797
01:21:18.860 --> 01:21:20.370
I don't think anyone has noticed.
1798
01:21:20.370 --> 01:21:23.170
I think everyone still wants to push through this
1799
01:21:25.752 --> 01:21:27.070
and I don't understand why.
1800
01:21:27.070 --> 01:21:30.640
I mean, and I think you had the JAG community, in general,
1801
01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:34.453
having real concerns with how these commissions were done.
1802
01:21:34.453 --> 01:21:35.710
I think a lot of this was probably done
1803
01:21:35.710 --> 01:21:38.900
without the consent of the JAGs
1804
01:21:38.900 --> 01:21:42.033
'cause we're horrified by it because we believe in
1805
01:21:42.033 --> 01:21:45.233
the rule of law, we abide by it.
1806
01:21:45.233 --> 01:21:46.180
And one of the things I missed
1807
01:21:46.180 --> 01:21:48.600
when I went and worked in the civilian world
1808
01:21:48.600 --> 01:21:50.260
was working in the JAG community
1809
01:21:50.260 --> 01:21:51.500
where I called gentlemen law,
1810
01:21:51.500 --> 01:21:53.513
where you got the evidence where,
1811
01:21:54.401 --> 01:21:56.290
you know, I had to worry about, you know,
1812
01:21:56.290 --> 01:21:59.620
what was being hidden and what was gonna come out in court.
1813
01:21:59.620 --> 01:22:01.960
Pretty much, you ran the courtroom
1814
01:22:01.960 --> 01:22:03.730
the way I think law should be run,
1815
01:22:03.730 --> 01:22:05.420
open, honest and fair.
1816
01:22:05.420 --> 01:22:08.112
I mean, it wasn't perfect, nothing's perfect
1817
01:22:08.112 --> 01:22:09.714
and when I got into the civilian world,
1818
01:22:09.714 --> 01:22:12.560
I was like, "What, you didn't turn over evidence?"
1819
01:22:12.560 --> 01:22:13.997
You know, "You got dirty cops?"
1820
01:22:13.997 --> 01:22:14.830
"What is this?"
1821
01:22:14.830 --> 01:22:16.310
You know, you're not used to that.
1822
01:22:16.310 --> 01:22:18.620
So I think we pride ourselves.
1823
01:22:18.620 --> 01:22:20.770
And then many people think, you know,
1824
01:22:20.770 --> 01:22:23.023
military law is kangaroo law
1825
01:22:23.023 --> 01:22:25.208
and it's the same thing as military intelligence,
1826
01:22:25.208 --> 01:22:27.440
you know, you hear the joke, but it's law,
1827
01:22:27.440 --> 01:22:30.900
I respect it, I was proud of, once I got out,
1828
01:22:30.900 --> 01:22:34.240
I went back in, I'm still proud of the JAG Corps,
1829
01:22:34.240 --> 01:22:35.900
I'm still proud, particularly,
1830
01:22:35.900 --> 01:22:38.500
there's prosecutors who stepped out
1831
01:22:38.500 --> 01:22:39.430
and did what they need to do
1832
01:22:39.430 --> 01:22:41.380
because I think they were probably the ones
1833
01:22:41.380 --> 01:22:42.750
who were probably hung out to dry
1834
01:22:42.750 --> 01:22:44.600
more than anyone else.
1835
01:22:44.600 --> 01:22:47.190
I had at least some cover because I was defense counsel,
1836
01:22:47.190 --> 01:22:50.260
so I could speak out about the injustices.
1837
01:22:50.260 --> 01:22:52.670
They, on the other hand, were supposed to support this,
1838
01:22:52.670 --> 01:22:55.460
but they realized that they had a higher ethical duty
1839
01:22:55.460 --> 01:22:58.620
to support the constitution, to support due process
1840
01:22:58.620 --> 01:23:01.440
and I'm very proud of them for standing out
1841
01:23:01.440 --> 01:23:04.390
because I know it's more difficult for them
1842
01:23:04.390 --> 01:23:08.330
to take that stand, particularly if you're career military
1843
01:23:08.330 --> 01:23:09.810
that you're putting your career on the line
1844
01:23:09.810 --> 01:23:11.960
to do what is right and that's not always
1845
01:23:11.960 --> 01:23:14.433
the easiest thing for individuals to do.
1846
01:23:16.796 --> 01:23:17.629
Thanks for the inspiring.
1847
01:23:17.629 --> 01:23:21.246
Is there something, Lou, do you have something?
1848
01:23:21.246 --> 01:23:22.080
Do you have any relationship
1849
01:23:22.080 --> 01:23:25.079
with Mr. Mohamed at this point?
1850
01:23:25.079 --> 01:23:30.079
No, I haven't seen Mr. Mohamed in some time.
1851
01:23:30.651 --> 01:23:33.660
And we were, after he got out, we kind of stayed in touch
1852
01:23:33.660 --> 01:23:34.690
and I think it's hard for him.
1853
01:23:34.690 --> 01:23:38.320
I mean, the thing that I just, really hurts me so much
1854
01:23:38.320 --> 01:23:41.050
is I don't think this man's life will ever be the same.
1855
01:23:41.050 --> 01:23:42.910
I mean, there's no way his life,
1856
01:23:42.910 --> 01:23:46.440
from what, the torture, the abuse that he went through.
1857
01:23:46.440 --> 01:23:48.920
And I know there was a settlement just recently
1858
01:23:48.920 --> 01:23:53.920
in Britain, in the UK, for the UK residents
1859
01:23:54.080 --> 01:23:58.010
and UK citizens, but there's not enough money in the world,
1860
01:23:58.010 --> 01:24:00.430
I mean, I don't know what the ultimate settlement amount is,
1861
01:24:00.430 --> 01:24:02.060
but there's not enough money in the world
1862
01:24:02.060 --> 01:24:05.400
that I think will ever make him whole
1863
01:24:05.400 --> 01:24:07.900
and I don't think it's even possible.
1864
01:24:07.900 --> 01:24:12.900
So, my heart goes out to him because I don't think his life
1865
01:24:14.390 --> 01:24:19.390
will ever be the same again, given what he has gone through.
1866
01:24:20.400 --> 01:24:21.830
But I'll tell you a touching story
1867
01:24:21.830 --> 01:24:25.330
that I really liked and it just tells you
1868
01:24:25.330 --> 01:24:27.570
the power of the human spirit
1869
01:24:27.570 --> 01:24:30.050
of how two people who are supposed to be enemies,
1870
01:24:30.050 --> 01:24:33.080
I'm the soldier, he's the alleged terrorist,
1871
01:24:33.080 --> 01:24:34.860
how, you know, the world could just
1872
01:24:34.860 --> 01:24:37.913
could take a 160 in the humanity of things.
1873
01:24:38.952 --> 01:24:40.100
There was one time I visited Mr. Mohamed
1874
01:24:40.100 --> 01:24:42.920
and he was on a hunger strike
1875
01:24:42.920 --> 01:24:45.680
and during this hunger strike,
1876
01:24:45.680 --> 01:24:47.540
I hate to see this, so I would always bring him food
1877
01:24:47.540 --> 01:24:48.660
or Clive would always bring him food
1878
01:24:48.660 --> 01:24:52.290
and try to persuade him to eat while we was there.
1879
01:24:52.290 --> 01:24:53.730
But he was on this hunger strike
1880
01:24:53.730 --> 01:24:55.450
and all he's talking about is food.
1881
01:24:55.450 --> 01:24:57.833
Now, I'm trying not to talk about food
1882
01:24:57.833 --> 01:24:59.190
just because I think that's cruel
1883
01:24:59.190 --> 01:25:01.240
to a person on a hunger strike, to talk about food,
1884
01:25:01.240 --> 01:25:03.400
but he's talking about food and he tells me
1885
01:25:03.400 --> 01:25:05.070
that the best dish that he makes
1886
01:25:05.070 --> 01:25:07.600
is a spaghetti and pasta dish
1887
01:25:07.600 --> 01:25:09.170
and he's telling me that, you know,
1888
01:25:09.170 --> 01:25:12.402
he cooks the best spaghetti and he's just going on,
1889
01:25:12.402 --> 01:25:14.814
I'm like, "Binyam, why are you talking about food?"
1890
01:25:14.814 --> 01:25:16.177
"You're on a hunger strike."
1891
01:25:16.177 --> 01:25:17.278
And he said, you know, he says,
1892
01:25:17.278 --> 01:25:18.590
"If I ever get out of here, I'll make you
1893
01:25:18.590 --> 01:25:21.660
a spaghetti dinner," and I don't know what this was,
1894
01:25:21.660 --> 01:25:23.030
this was way before he got out,
1895
01:25:23.030 --> 01:25:25.428
but I was like, "Okay," I said,
1896
01:25:25.428 --> 01:25:26.500
"Binyam we're gonna get you out of here one day,
1897
01:25:26.500 --> 01:25:27.520
but I'm gonna hold you to that."
1898
01:25:27.520 --> 01:25:29.340
I said, "You know what, you haven't paid me anything,
1899
01:25:29.340 --> 01:25:31.610
but your payment to me will be a spaghetti dinner
1900
01:25:31.610 --> 01:25:34.430
when you get out of Guantanamo."
1901
01:25:34.430 --> 01:25:37.020
He gets out of Guantanamo in February of 2009
1902
01:25:37.020 --> 01:25:41.633
and, I think it was in February, I think I was still there,
1903
01:25:42.510 --> 01:25:45.610
no, I think I went back in July,
1904
01:25:45.610 --> 01:25:49.300
so he gets out in February, I go back in July of 2009
1905
01:25:50.567 --> 01:25:53.390
and I run into Binyam, we're talking-
1906
01:25:53.390 --> 01:25:54.792
You went back to London?
1907
01:25:54.792 --> 01:25:55.625
I would go back to London.
1908
01:25:55.625 --> 01:25:57.800
So he gets out in February of 2009,
1909
01:25:57.800 --> 01:26:01.600
I go and visit him, I'd go back to London
1910
01:26:01.600 --> 01:26:04.610
in July of 2009 and that's because Clive
1911
01:26:04.610 --> 01:26:07.302
has his big birthday party every July,
1912
01:26:07.302 --> 01:26:09.569
so that's why I went back in July,
1913
01:26:09.569 --> 01:26:10.640
and I was there for about two weeks
1914
01:26:10.640 --> 01:26:13.057
and I run into Binyam and he says,
1915
01:26:13.057 --> 01:26:15.260
"Um, what are you doing, like, on a Wednesday night?"
1916
01:26:15.260 --> 01:26:16.260
I said, "Oh, I'm not doing anything."
1917
01:26:16.260 --> 01:26:18.970
He said, "Well, I want you to come over
1918
01:26:18.970 --> 01:26:21.670
'cause I want to have dinner with you."
1919
01:26:21.670 --> 01:26:24.870
So, he had this dinner and it was him,
1920
01:26:24.870 --> 01:26:29.003
another former detainee, Omar Deghayes,
1921
01:26:29.942 --> 01:26:31.930
and I think it might've been another individual
1922
01:26:31.930 --> 01:26:35.060
who was a former detainee, a couple people from Reprieve,
1923
01:26:35.060 --> 01:26:36.650
which is Clive's organization,
1924
01:26:36.650 --> 01:26:39.970
and Binyam has cooked me this spaghetti dinner.
1925
01:26:39.970 --> 01:26:42.640
And I almost cried because he remembered
1926
01:26:42.640 --> 01:26:45.470
a conversation we had like two or three years ago,
1927
01:26:45.470 --> 01:26:47.621
and I was just kind of joking with him
1928
01:26:47.621 --> 01:26:48.838
when I told him, "When I get you out,
1929
01:26:48.838 --> 01:26:49.671
you owe me a spaghetti dinner,"
1930
01:26:49.671 --> 01:26:52.794
but he remembered it, he remembered that he told me
1931
01:26:52.794 --> 01:26:53.763
about the spaghetti dinner, that he would fix me
1932
01:26:53.763 --> 01:26:54.830
a spaghetti dinner.
1933
01:26:54.830 --> 01:26:57.200
And throughout this dinner, he kept apologizing
1934
01:26:57.200 --> 01:26:59.310
'cause he didn't have, like, pasta noodles,
1935
01:26:59.310 --> 01:27:00.690
he had, like, little short noodles
1936
01:27:00.690 --> 01:27:03.210
and he was kind of upset that he didn't have, like, pasta
1937
01:27:03.210 --> 01:27:05.137
because that's what he had promised me.
1938
01:27:05.137 --> 01:27:06.540
I said, "Binyam," I said, "The fact that you made me
1939
01:27:06.540 --> 01:27:10.820
this dinner is all the, you know, all I need."
1940
01:27:10.820 --> 01:27:14.463
And it almost just, like, took my breath away.
1941
01:27:15.377 --> 01:27:18.980
And it was those type of moments of that nature
1942
01:27:18.980 --> 01:27:21.390
that makes you realize, you know, wow.
1943
01:27:21.390 --> 01:27:24.020
That and I remember one other situation one time
1944
01:27:24.020 --> 01:27:28.870
when I brought him, I would bring him,
1945
01:27:28.870 --> 01:27:32.390
whenever Clive would come over or I would go to London,
1946
01:27:32.390 --> 01:27:33.830
I would bring things back from London
1947
01:27:33.830 --> 01:27:36.560
to kind of give him that remembrance of, you know,
1948
01:27:36.560 --> 01:27:39.770
of being in the UK, and during one conversation,
1949
01:27:39.770 --> 01:27:42.550
I had talked to him about how I like the Cadbury bars,
1950
01:27:42.550 --> 01:27:43.970
but I only liked them from the UK
1951
01:27:43.970 --> 01:27:46.210
'cause I think chocolate tastes better over in the UK.
1952
01:27:46.210 --> 01:27:47.700
But when I went to the UK, I bought him
1953
01:27:47.700 --> 01:27:49.550
about four or five Cadbury bars
1954
01:27:49.550 --> 01:27:51.860
and I told him my favorite was the fruit and nuts,
1955
01:27:51.860 --> 01:27:52.950
and I had bought the fruit and nuts,
1956
01:27:52.950 --> 01:27:54.420
but I bought them for him.
1957
01:27:54.420 --> 01:27:56.030
And throughout this meeting, he was eating
1958
01:27:56.030 --> 01:27:59.050
the Cadbury bars, but he put this one fruit and nut aside
1959
01:27:59.050 --> 01:28:00.567
and I'm trying to figure out,
1960
01:28:00.567 --> 01:28:02.710
"Binyam, why aren't you eating the fruit and nut?"
1961
01:28:02.710 --> 01:28:05.094
And at the end, he said, "Oh, I'll eat it,"
1962
01:28:05.094 --> 01:28:05.927
and at the very end of the meeting,
1963
01:28:05.927 --> 01:28:07.030
'cause he couldn't keep anything with him,
1964
01:28:07.030 --> 01:28:08.277
he gave me the bar back, he says,
1965
01:28:08.277 --> 01:28:10.780
"Here, I want you to have this, this is for you."
1966
01:28:10.780 --> 01:28:12.420
I said, "Binyam, no, I bought that for you."
1967
01:28:12.420 --> 01:28:14.820
But he remembered from a conversation we had
1968
01:28:14.820 --> 01:28:16.500
that I told him that one of my favorite candy bars
1969
01:28:16.500 --> 01:28:18.240
were the Cadbury fruit and nuts
1970
01:28:18.240 --> 01:28:20.080
and he set that aside to give back to me,
1971
01:28:20.080 --> 01:28:20.980
so he could give it to me.
1972
01:28:20.980 --> 01:28:23.620
And it's moments like that when you realize,
1973
01:28:23.620 --> 01:28:26.920
wow, you know, that sense of humanity,
1974
01:28:26.920 --> 01:28:28.660
that sense of, you know, the rapport,
1975
01:28:28.660 --> 01:28:30.150
as I said, I don't think we fully connected,
1976
01:28:30.150 --> 01:28:31.310
in some ways he'd trust me,
1977
01:28:31.310 --> 01:28:32.970
but there's little things like that
1978
01:28:32.970 --> 01:28:35.380
that I will hold onto and treasure
1979
01:28:35.380 --> 01:28:38.240
of, you know, the good that came out of Guantanamo
1980
01:28:38.240 --> 01:28:41.530
and our relationship there.
1981
01:28:41.530 --> 01:28:43.660
So did you grow from that?
1982
01:28:43.660 --> 01:28:45.843
From your experience in Guantanamo?
1983
01:28:47.443 --> 01:28:48.276
Grow?
1984
01:28:48.276 --> 01:28:50.620
It changed me, it, in some senses,
1985
01:28:50.620 --> 01:28:54.493
rocks your foundation on what people,
1986
01:28:55.590 --> 01:28:58.150
well, that's a really good question,
1987
01:28:58.150 --> 01:29:00.540
I mean, I don't know, I think I learned
1988
01:29:00.540 --> 01:29:04.540
many lessons from it, I think the lessons
1989
01:29:04.540 --> 01:29:08.600
were all connected in some way once we allow
1990
01:29:08.600 --> 01:29:12.403
not fear and propaganda to rule our lives,
1991
01:29:12.403 --> 01:29:14.100
where we can sit down and listen to people
1992
01:29:14.100 --> 01:29:18.650
and that you gain a whole lot more through dialogue
1993
01:29:18.650 --> 01:29:22.080
and conversation than you do by, you know,
1994
01:29:22.080 --> 01:29:26.040
being at odds, at odds and ends with people.
1995
01:29:26.040 --> 01:29:30.720
But I also learned that you just can't take anything
1996
01:29:30.720 --> 01:29:33.010
at face value, I don't care whether it's your government
1997
01:29:33.010 --> 01:29:35.020
telling you, I don't care if your best friend
1998
01:29:35.020 --> 01:29:36.800
that tells you that certain things,
1999
01:29:36.800 --> 01:29:40.390
you just have to learn the facts on your own
2000
01:29:40.390 --> 01:29:42.570
because if you, sometimes you take things.
2001
01:29:42.570 --> 01:29:44.900
As I walked into Guantanamo Bay believing
2002
01:29:44.900 --> 01:29:46.110
these are the worst of the worst
2003
01:29:46.110 --> 01:29:48.787
and this guy was a terrorist and I allowed that fear
2004
01:29:48.787 --> 01:29:51.760
and that propaganda to color my perspective
2005
01:29:51.760 --> 01:29:53.950
on what other facts was telling me,
2006
01:29:53.950 --> 01:29:56.910
that I've learned that sometimes you have to
2007
01:29:56.910 --> 01:29:59.300
question the source, no matter what the source is,
2008
01:29:59.300 --> 01:30:01.510
and try to dig into what is the fact
2009
01:30:01.510 --> 01:30:03.383
and what the truth is.
2010
01:30:04.360 --> 01:30:05.193
You hear from many people
2011
01:30:05.193 --> 01:30:08.207
about the humanity of it all and it's promising.
2012
01:30:09.160 --> 01:30:13.820
Yeah, and it is, but you have to cut through the nonsense.
2013
01:30:13.820 --> 01:30:17.490
And the other thing that just amazed me of,
2014
01:30:17.490 --> 01:30:21.250
Binyam never, talk about a rapport in our relationship,
2015
01:30:21.250 --> 01:30:24.090
Binyam never told me anything that was,
2016
01:30:24.090 --> 01:30:26.351
he didn't believe was true, was,
2017
01:30:26.351 --> 01:30:29.330
he never lied to me, he never actively lied to me.
2018
01:30:29.330 --> 01:30:31.620
But I, unfortunately, I can't say that every time
2019
01:30:31.620 --> 01:30:35.590
I went to Guantanamo, I was lied to by some official,
2020
01:30:35.590 --> 01:30:39.240
by some guard, by someone in the system,
2021
01:30:39.240 --> 01:30:41.080
and it just haunted me.
2022
01:30:41.080 --> 01:30:42.390
That struck me hard one day
2023
01:30:42.390 --> 01:30:44.180
when I was just reflecting, like,
2024
01:30:44.180 --> 01:30:45.450
every time I come down to Guantanamo,
2025
01:30:45.450 --> 01:30:47.950
why can't anyone just be honest and,
2026
01:30:47.950 --> 01:30:49.860
I mean, people tell you outright lies,
2027
01:30:49.860 --> 01:30:52.170
you're like, "That's not true."
2028
01:30:52.170 --> 01:30:55.560
But the alleged terrorist is the only one
2029
01:30:55.560 --> 01:30:56.630
who's being honest with me.
2030
01:30:56.630 --> 01:30:59.520
I thought, "How ironic is that?"
2031
01:30:59.520 --> 01:31:00.910
The only person who's honest with me
2032
01:31:00.910 --> 01:31:02.910
when half the time I'm down in Guantanamo
2033
01:31:02.910 --> 01:31:06.530
is my client, everyone else, you know,
2034
01:31:06.530 --> 01:31:08.740
sometimes I had to treat with a grain of salt
2035
01:31:08.740 --> 01:31:10.497
of what I'm being told and I just thought,
2036
01:31:10.497 --> 01:31:14.660
"That's just not right," it just didn't make sense.
2037
01:31:14.660 --> 01:31:16.803
But it's the world of Guantanamo.
2038
01:31:18.640 --> 01:31:21.283
Well, Lou, anything else?
2039
01:31:21.283 --> 01:31:22.116
No, that's it.
2040
01:31:22.116 --> 01:31:23.215
Is there anything else that you want to?
2041
01:31:23.215 --> 01:31:26.266
No, I think I've rambled enough.
2042
01:31:26.266 --> 01:31:27.870
No, you weren't rambling at all.
2043
01:31:27.870 --> 01:31:28.898
It was very wonderful.
2044
01:31:28.898 --> 01:31:30.780
It was really a wonderful story.
2045
01:31:30.780 --> 01:31:34.053
We have to take 20 seconds of room tone.
2046
01:31:34.053 --> 01:31:34.886
All right.
2047
01:31:34.886 --> 01:31:35.810
So, Johnny will just do that
2048
01:31:35.810 --> 01:31:37.197
before we close.
2049
01:31:37.197 --> 01:31:38.060
Okay.
2050
01:31:38.060 --> 01:31:39.460
Again, room tone.
2051
01:31:54.074 --> 01:31:54.907
End room tone.
2052
01:31:55.920 --> 01:31:56.780
Ooh, it's warm in here.
2053
01:31:56.780 --> 01:31:58.280
It was really expect...