Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: A karate man. I don't do negative images of African Americans for children. There are no bad guys. I do that. Speaker 2: Would you share with us how it felt going from, from North Carolina, Mississippi and being accept before I always teach about the [indistinct] of the African American experiences of American people, and that once you get matter where you go, you are always a child that [indistinct] as long as you come and your intentions are good and you express that change once you got there, things were as, as you said, they were even wonderfully different also. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Right? Right. They were. And I think that, I think that that's one of the things that I do. Anytime I go into a community, I try to go into the community wanting to know something or wanting to learn. And I think that if you have, you have to have a, a sort of, and inquisitive, you have to be humble. I think that's a good word. You have to be humble. You can't go into anybody's community thinking that you know everything that you, you know, and you just have to be downright friendly when you go in there. You can't go in with an attitude. ou can't go in like, you know, I'm from Atlanta and I know everything. ecause you are dealing with people that are very, you know, you're dealing with people that are 80, 90 years old. These people know more. I mean, you know, I'm only 37 for crying out loud (laugh), you know, they've lived many more years than I have and they know a lot. So when I know, I know to learn, you know, Speaker 2: I was my next question that you wrote to a, the practical earth coach, they have to, to life. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Yeah. I think for me it was like going back to my childhood. 'cause like I said, sometimes is not a big town. It's a very small town. When I grew up, our house is here. My uncle's house was here, another uncle here, and my grandmother was over here, aunt on the hill. We took up the whole square block, we had the whole block cover. So that, you know, I mean, it was just that sense of family. And this is one thing that I found down there, that sense of family. ou know, a lot of people say that the family is disintegrating. I'm hearing all these negative things about the African American family and African American family life. But even I've been, you know, the past two weeks I've been in two of the roughest projects in Atlanta working in working with kids in a recreation program. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: And I saw one day I saw at the end of the program, we made little art books with photographs in it. But at the end of the program it was me and two musicians that were working. The kids liked change classes. So at the end of the program, we gave like a presentation for the whole camp. I looked up and folks Mamas was coming in 'cause we set no tone to let them know that we were gonna do this program. One grandmother came in in a wheelchair pushed by a man who was, you know, obviously an alcoholic. I mean, you could tell him in his face, but he was struggling to get her in that gym and to seat her so she could see that program. And these are the positive things that I see that are in the African American community that are not being that are not being tapped or not being even, you know, I mean, you get negative. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: That's all you getting. You get, I mean, lots and lots of stories of crack heads and crack dealers and crack this and crack there. But what about that grandmother that's in there? And what about those, those ladies that are in enterprise that still have the gardens there that sit on their porches in the evening and tell those stories. What about that that's an aspect of, you know, of the African American community? I think because of press mainly, you know, you get a lot of negative press that that people are really, you know, focusing on that and not a lot on, you know, you just don't hear about a lot of positive stuff. But I think that the fam you know, in that respect, I think the family is, is still there. There's, there's aspects of that that's still there that I'm not sure if we are really, you know, Speaker 2: Well, you know, I had never thought I, I really view that there's too much hype on the negative aspects of what happens in the African American community. But by the same token, until I listen community, I never considered having a project to go into and have someone from our various institution do photography projects to counter the height. And I think this is rural people have welcomed you. Urban people also are responsive to welcome you. And that's Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Advantage. I have one, as a matter of fact, one with many 999 million other things. I'm gonna be working, my, the gallery that actually handles my work in Atlanta is in the reynoldstown section of Atlanta, which is like southeast Atlanta. I've had galleries from Uptown Peachtree and so on, and have called me and asked me, you know, can, can we represent you? And I flat out said no, 'cause I was in Littletown. My theory is, you know, why do I have to get in my car and drive up to Peachtree, you know, to go see my work when I live on southeast side. So I use a gallery. I use a gallery that's in Rosetown. I have a project that's coming up supposedly this month while going and actually document the Reynoldstown community with which is abundance. I mean, there are a lot of elderly people in there as well as a lot of young kids. And they have a lot of just real good community programs that are going on. So I do plan on doing Speaker 3: That. Yeah. I go back to discussion at the beginning of technical aspects. Sure. Family photographs. Sure. or for someone who is going, you have oral history, you know, do interviews or interviews and bring along a camera, is it possible, my question, is it possible to achieve the goal of documenting photographs in someone's you know, albums without bringing someone along who has the technical expertise that you mentioned? Is it possible to get to that point in terms of just having a third car at the camera with the special lens? Or would you really have to actually bring somebody along with you every time? Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: No, you wouldn't. So the, the lens you need to have, but you need to have a macro lens. You really have to have, yeah. Yeah. You need to have, you can have a 35 millimeter, let me let you look at this thing. Speaker 3: And would you need all the lights? Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Yeah. You need to, you need to have some kind of way of lighting whatever it is that you're gonna do. 'cause you, what you're after is, is decent image quality. But you can look through this, you know how to this camera you can get, you can focus it, you can put your hand and, and just keep focusing. You can see how close that lens will, will get on a photograph. So you have to have a macro lens. You can use a telephoto lens, but it's really not going to work your pho lens. You are gonna lose quality. You really need a macro or a four by five. What is Mr. Cross's first name? Mill? What? Mil? Yeah, mil Cross just said the mound value. Mr. Sigman Lydia is the postmaster. She will make she (laugh) person. Okay. Speaker 4: I wanna follow up on questions about the special land—I'm in the state archive . And I wanna shoot some photographs from the governor's file from 1921. And I have this particular account with the lady. Now how am I gonna accomplish this in this public facility? Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Yeah, I understand. I'm saying probably the best thing to do if you're gonna do something like that. If you could if they have something like a bulletin board, if you, you are just mainly interested in getting the stuff documented or, I mean, what, what is it gonna be used? I won't, is it gonna be used for a specific purpose or is it Yeah, Speaker 4: We're gonna publish Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: It. Oh, okay. If it's in the state archive, they should have copy of facilities in the state archive allow you to Huh? Damage the photograph. Oh, I'm not, I'm not even sure. I, I better not touch that one. 'cause a lot of this stuff is also on microfilm. You know, which is what I'm thinking in Speaker 5: Some, in, some are, like in, in North Carolina, if you've had something like that, they have a whole photographic section. Right. That they would, they would take it at a fairly, I mean, stuff that I've ever had done there. They do it a fairly reason, you know, a few dollars, a four or $5 a shot, they make a negative, give you a negative and a print. But they have a special staff that has all this equipment and they, you know, they'll go, you tell 'em where it is in the governor's papers and they'll go get it and everywhere. It may not be like that, but I think usually you can make arrangements. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: The only experience I've had with that was the Vanish and Georgia exhibit in Atlanta. And I went down to the archive and, you know, they have like a card catalog file of, of various photographs. So I just wanted you, what you do is you go in, you pick out a photograph that you want and you give it to 'em and they actually make you a copy of the photograph and mail it to you. So, but I don't know how you would, you know, would actually get a copy of, can you send your photo, any of your photographs? Do you sell any of No, my personal, my personal photographs, Uhhuh ones I took and painted on, of course, (laugh). Of course. Speaker 6: Why was Mississippi Miss special reason Mississippi was told for the project? Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: I think because of Mississippi's history, I think because of Mississippi's violent history. I, I Speaker 6: Think, I think so I do. I I do for last five years. Five. I mean, it is beautiful 'cause I've had a little experience for the last five years I've done a revival in Heart Spring, Mississippi. And one of the things that, you know, and I don't, I go mainly for what I can receive from the people. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Right. Speaker 6: And one of the things they do, they do the come and meet him. The long meeting Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Him. Right. Speaker 6: You know, I can tell 'em. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Well see, that's what, that's, Speaker 6: I haven't heard that kind thing. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: I was about to say that's the world. But I was about to say that not only Mississippi's history, but also the fact that, I mean, there's so much down there. I mean, it is, the traditions are very intact. I mean, if, you know, it's, I mean the juke houses are there, your blues is there. I mean, for crying loud, Mississippi is a birthplace. The question Speaker 6: I really raised, I guess the historian can help. Why is it different from Alabama? I mean, you have something that's different. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Yeah. I'll just say that. Sounds like, that sounds like something for a history for we discuss that and historian's Speaker 6: Interesting. Just interested. Why would you choose Mississippi? But I think it's a good choice. Yeah. By the way. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: But yeah, but I think, I think that it has a lot to do with the, the the, the, not only its history of violence, but the the fact that people, you know, like as I said, they endured, they really endured. And the traditions that are there, the, the family traditions that are there are still, you know, very much intact. Yeah. Cynthia Woods: My name is Cynthia Woods and I with the Mississippi statewide survey. And you and my field surveyor Wilson, Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Yes. We won't talk about Wilson. Cynthia Woods: Are at the same places, essentially doing the same thing. And some of my concerns, I talked to Alex briefly about it, and perhaps, you know, I should meet with you individually. But archivists and photographer is subject their work to interpretation and editing and in order to get the aesthetic, but also what I consider to be an archivally appropriate statement and representation of the document. Cynthia Woods: Now I'm looking for—you're saying you're looking for the photo, I'm looking for the total experience, the photo the story. You know, all of that, that and that oral documentation, the total aspect of it. And we have been weeded out often because of, of the, what we call objectivity of researchers and scholars. And what we are trying to do is bring all of that back into focus in a positive sense. And I, I just have concerns because I, when I talked to Wilson, he would, he would say, well this is good and you know, this looks pretty, but then I have this, this picture that's distorted, that shows this family you know, in the house in the kitchen or cooking or doing some things that tells, you know, another story but it, it doesn't look pretty, you know? Cynthia Woods: Right. Right. So I want to pick up on all of that. Yeah. We need to, we were talking about trying to work closer together, but we are overwhelmed in terms of the level of surveys. And in terms of the fact that you said you had two people to die. Well, I've had 12 people to die within the last year. And it takes a part of you when you, you know, you work with people, a lot of history dies with 'em. Yeah. And, and the records. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Yeah. It's a, it is a, it is a, it is a problem you know, to be dealt with. And I, you know, I don't know, I'm just, Cynthia Woods: I shared with our, when you were there, some photographs that we had found in an attic that someone had just sent to us. And since then people have brought in boxes and we'll find some gems in them. And some of the dates are, you know, 18 62 18. And it's, it's really something to touch these and touch these lines. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: One thing to remember too, that if you have original photographs like that, especially if the photographs are African Americans are very valuable because they're not a lot, there are a lot of photographs that exist back. Lemme put to you this way. I've been in flea markets, you know, 'cause I do the flea market circuit. Anytime you have a photograph of an African American early, early photograph of African American, they generally sell for much more than someone else in that time period. 'cause we just didn't have, you know, we didn't have access to those cameras. So, Cynthia Woods: Alright. Speaker 8: I put this plug in that you all want to know why Mississippi, Cynthia Woods: The book Speaker 8: Mississippi Black History Bank, university, p Mississippi, you all can get a copy of Book Montgomery and Father who was the first Black judge and also an inventor and fan. So [indistinct] from University President Mississippi. I wish I had some Cynthia Woods: Mention another reason Mississippi is so strong in the institutions. I think we're so strong when we talk about the Jim Crow era and the need to turn within and to develop your schools, your churches, your businesses. So we've had some strong businesses in Mississippi, and you look at the poverty there, but you look at the thousands of success stories and you go to Mississippi and most people are surprised that Blacks have been able to overcome within the confines of Jim Crow. And I've always say that one of my things is empowering the Black community, documenting the pride. And when you document pride to do that as a part of Jim Crow. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: One thing that I found, you know, one thing that really amazed me, 'cause like I said, I'm from Southern Pines and by the time I came along, my grandfather had, well, grandfather owned on one side of the family that allegedly had a lot of land, which they lost. I mean, that's a common story on African Americans. And my grandfather had a lot of land which our family which he had sold by the time I was born, just have a small, you know, small plots of it. But one thing I found in Mississippi was just a large number of African Americans that owned land and that still farmland. And I remember the first time I saw first time I saw a black guy he was on a, on a tractor (laugh) with a cowboy hat on. And it tripped me out. I went running across the field. I said, oh, look at him. And, and he says, this is my land. And Cynthia Woods: I'm What do you Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Mean? Yeah. And it was, I mean, it's that kind of thing. I, what I really like to do, since I do so much work with kids, I really like to take a group of kids from the inner city, you know, to a place like Mississippi to actually see men, you know, tossing hay on their own land. You know, I mean, it's a man, this is true. This is true. This is very true. But I don't work in Georgia. You know, I work in Mississippi, Georgia Cynthia Woods: Needs Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: The south. Yeah, it does. All of the states do. All of the states do. And we really, you know, I mean we really kind of looking Yeah. With Hong Kong. Yeah. Looking at that. Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah. But I know more people in Mississippi than I do in Georgia. (laugh). Yes, ma'am. Speaker 9: as the focus of the Mississippi project on rural Mississippi during that period. And I was wondering if you had an opportunity to Cynthia Woods: Do any photographs or Speaker 9: Find any photographs that would illustrate Blacks in the cities like Jackson, Meridian, Hattiesburg. Oh yeah. And that would make an interesting contrast. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Yeah, we have there are a lot of, I have a lot of photographs of that I did in Jackson. everal actually. The thing, the thing that you find when you, like, if I'm doing, I did a number of families that lived in Jackson, but they migrated there from some of the part of the state, you know, which was sometimes a very rural part. I'm trying to think specifically. Mr. Haring's photographs were pretty much from Jackson. 'cause he lived there pretty much all of his life. So you got a lot of the church scenes of churches in Jackson, that kind of thing. So yeah, it, it, it contrasts. But I think, you know, it's, like I said before, you still see a common thread. I think it sort of went through any photograph, especially if you're dealing with snapshots. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: f they were formal photographs, it would be something different. But with a snapshot, you keep seeing these things that keep repeating themselves. And that was with any family collection, be it Black, White, anybody, you're gonna have the same birthday party, the same, you know, whatever. It's gonna keep coming up. Those in Mike Michael Busey does as a book out called Timeframes, where he go actually goes into our type of images, things that keep popping up how people oppose, how women oppose in, within the frame of a picture. It's really weird to, to read that and see the, the images Speaker 2: Repeated. I don't smiling because you showed the photograph [indistinct] discussion about cars and Blackfoot flash yesterday. And I wish you all knew I did call my daddy. So y'all had said it. The car was in black (laugh) photograph and he took him a little minute stumble and rolled around his left frame himself, but he finally got it out together and said, oh no, baby daddy wouldn't. Do you like that (laugh)? And I want to ask you a question about as photographer, when you know, cars in the background of a female and male class, see, 'cause I'm just an opinion that a car is another toy that that that a man has in this might you wants to just have that taken with that toy. But when you were taking, when you were going through the old photographs in Mississippi cases, did you see a lot of photographs or were you aware of an how rate of photographs in front of, near or around cars? Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Oh, everybody. Everybody. Well, the car was also status symbol. You know, it was a symbol of status. And it still is. I mean, in the African American community, your car is, it's Speaker 2: Your car. I know. But crying out loud, Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: You know, and, and it's still like that people still are gonna take, I mean, that's one of the thing the kids did over the project. The first thing they did was ran to a car. You know, somebody had a Bronco. It is like, take me on in front of this car. You know, that's why you have, you have those kinds of things. Yeah. I mean, you know, you keep seeing that Speaker 2: When you're, as Speaker 10: Of your project, I take it that you're collecting stories. Do you collect your stories orally or do you use a tape Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Recorder? I have a tape recorder, but we really haven't gotten into the, the the oral history part of it. What I, the way that I was doing it, I was basically using a photograph to reinforce what, especially with Mr. Crow's collection, which was huge to reinforce what we had, you know, what he was saying about the photographs. Cause I couldn't write that fast. Now when I was in Ville, Mississippi, I did speak with a couple of ladies down there. I do have their recorded conversations. And I was also like I go into a juvenile or something and, you know, talk to the lady that was there. I got a great conversation in Shelby, Mississippi of the slavery in the juvenile. She own the juvenile, you know, just her opinions on what was happening in Shelby and that kind of thing. So I do, you know, kind of, but we really haven't gotten into the oral aspect of it full force yet, which is supposed to come in the separate phase of Speaker 3: When, you know, organization. Do you do you organize your photographs coincide with the tape so that you know which photo? Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: They're both. They're both. hey, they're also numbered. They're also numbered. ach photograph has it, each frame with 35 millimeters, a little difficult, four by five with a four by five. Each time that I copy a photograph, I also copy the number of the photograph to correspond with the number on a piece of paper that I have. So I know, you know exactly where I'm going. And if I'm recording the conversation, like the one that I, the one that I did with Mr. Crow was on 35 was 35 millimeter film. So basically what we did, we just called him up out before we went to the next program. If it breaks up the, you know, the continuity of the conversation. But, you know, you can be in a conversation and you go, oh yeah, well that's while he's going, that's I'll go frame 8 89, something like continue talking, you know, Cynthia Woods: And I have some concerns about the issue of donor agreements and rights to use it and reproduce it. Has that been addressed? You know, we get them to sign a donor agreement, well at this point, even with surveys, we get permission to use their names in our database. And I have a concern about eventually we hope to collect some of those things for our archives. And at that point we are gonna put restrictions on the reproduction. as that been addressed? Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: No. And I think, I think that that will probably come up in publishing, but so far we do the same thing. Basically, we get them to sign and agree on a state, a statement saying that, you know, it's gonna be put in the archives, it's gonna be used for humanitarian purposes, educational purposes, whatever. ou know, not nothing commercial. We're not gonna blow 'em up, you know, on a billboard or anything. Most people are, you know, they're really, most people are real. I mean, they're agreeable to doing something. Yeah. They feel like they're contributing something, Cynthia Woods: Sign it away. But they're fine with you. They're fine with me and they'll sign with them. You know? Right. So at one point they may, this may become an issue. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Yeah. From a legal sure standpoint. Sure. But no, it's like, it's like my mom says, you have to cross that bridge when you come to it. You know? I mean, there's always gonna be some kind of legal battle with something one way or the other. But I mean, unless you are you know, unless you're just exploiting somebody, it, it's usually not an issue. It's like model, it's like model releases. Know, I don't get model releases at Cynthia Woods: This point, but I was hoping that somehow we could start a process of planning for anticipating the need to, you know, to avoid Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Problem possible. Do you know, the only thing I could think, okay, I was just, I was talking to Ms. Walker a couple weeks ago Margaret Walker Alexander, and she was talking about the lawsuit, you know, people that had sued her. And that's basically the same issue. I mean, it's all the same thing. ou know, having a document and using that document and somebody comes along and suit and, and you know, Congress is going back and forth with, with, and until they settle it, you know, it's always gonna be an issue. I mean, it's, it's sort of like the thing, it's sort of like the kind of thing that you never get any work done. If you, you know, (laugh) you, but it's gonna come up. Yeah. It's, it's gonna come up. But I don't know how you could prepare for it. I don't know how you could prepare to be, you know, I don't know. I just want, oh, did you wanna ask? Yeah, yeah. Speaker 11: I'm just curious to know, against what backdrop do you assess whether or not you really have Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: A, Speaker 11: A holistic portrait of Mississippi? What, what, yeah. How do you determine what, determine what determines that? Is it just, you know, I like this, this is wonderful, this is great. This is rich. And Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: You, it is, like I said, you, you, you did, you do it like that. And you also do with, with capturing, you know, a moment capture. I mean there, you know, the aesthetics and photographs that, you know, some things I've copied that most people, you know, might look at and you know what the, hey, why'd she do that? But there's something about the immediacy of that moment that was captured. I have a one of the instance of picture kids from snowballs. t's just a simple photograph, but it's just the immediacy of that moment, the releases that snowball going across. And it's everyday life. I mean, this is Speaker 11: What, so do you, are you consciously trying to tell a particular Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Story? Not yet. I can't. We can't yet because we don't know what we have. Speaker 11: No, what I mean is the final product, are you aware that you're consciously trying to portray, consciously trying to tell a particular story? Or are you satisfied just to Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: Let the photographs tell their own stories? I think in the end, yes. That it won't, that the photograph, it will have to be oral as well as, as with the photographs, which is the second phase of the project. photograph is one thing, but a photograph in an oral account of that photograph is something else. Because once you sit down with a person and they begin to give you an oral account of what happened on the day that that photograph was taken, it becomes much more than a photograph. It becomes a photograph and a moment it becomes a time capsule. It's, it's like a little, little thing in time that you managed to, to capture. So I think, you know, that in the end, you know, we will use, it will be oral and, and photography at least I'm hoping that that's the way it'll come out. But as far as selection, you know, there, there are no rules on selecting anything. I mean, you could go and say, well, I want everything to be formal, you know, which would be like a photograph of Ms. Beauty's mold farm. And you could do all that. But that's not telling the whole story either. I don't know. There's just certain scenes. I try to get as many landscapes. ou know, whatever. You just can get in. Yeah, you try, but you Robert Korstad: Can't. I think we need to take a, we need a break because it's, it's 10 30. Lynn's been here for a while. (laugh) we need to lunch, history department lounge. Oh, okay. Yeah, just a couple of Discussion groups is usual. And I think, 'cause I think the last day or so, all this, the discussion about documentary photography projects like Lynn is doing, I mean, there are a whole lot of different questions that we that we can start talking about there. So why don't we, I guess, is there any, is there coffee? We're not going back over to the lounge now, right? People should just go to their discussion sections. Okay. Okay. In lunch. Lunch is gonna be in the history department. Lounge. We're, yeah. Rather than Mary Williamson. 'cause we have all the food over there and it's easier than Kerry. And we have the, we have lunch. So unless you have some real special needs I think we'll have enough for everybody. So go to your discussion groups at noon. Come, come back there and try to be there at noon. Thank you. And thank you. Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: A couple minutes. I've gotta head back to Atlanta on the road again. Robert Korstad: Yeah, Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: I'll be, Robert Korstad: Thank Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: You Robert Korstad: So much. I know Lynn Marshall Linnemeier: It's.