Donald Edward Morgan: "You don't appear to want to speak to me." So he says, "I know that you've heard about my past in South Norfolk." He says, "Can't we meet on some mutual ground?" He says, "I noticed you have a lot on the ball, but you just don't want to associate with Whites." I said, "Well, I don't have an objection to Whites anymore than you have objections to Blacks sometime." The odd part about it is that we became closer after that confrontation, he became superintendent. But before he became superintendent, he made sure that I got out of that assistant principal job, he got me promoted to coordinator of educational television. And then when he became superintendent the next year, the change was that every area would have a supervisor, so he asked me if I would take the secondary science supervisor's job. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And I didn't agree because that was a step sideways, because I was already coordinator of educational television, which was same thing, but he finally persuaded me because of lack of applicants for that position. I was the only one that was really qualified and acceptable for that position, so I became first secondary science supervisor in the city of Virginia Beach. And I hate to brag, but I brought the science program from almost nothing to one that was envied by many, many cities and states, including California. 

Donald Edward Morgan: I was not necessarily one of trying to push things, but I didn't believe in accepting programs just because they came out out of Newton, Massachusetts where they had tested it and it was successful there, or from California where a program was successful, because I believe that every school system is unique. There are no two that are the same. It's like every child is unique, you can't teach them all the same thing at the same time and have them come up with the same grades. 

Donald Edward Morgan: But as far as my experience in anything related to segregation, after I became science supervisor, we all met together, Black, White, purple, all of us. I even became president of the association for a year. And of course, we would travel places and study different programs, and of course, we'd have our national and state meetings, which I was president there also. As far as the differences between segregation and desegregation, I came from a city that was on the surface desegregated. In other words, there was very little difference made between Blacks and Whites in Raleigh. 

Donald Edward Morgan: You live separately, you worked different jobs. The main jobs that you could get there which lended any expertise to your life was teacher, a doctor, a lawyer, a nurse, or a preacher. In other words, when I was in St. Augustine's College, it was totally a religious school. Most of the emphasis was put on training priests for the Episcopal Church. Nowadays, they don't have nothing. The emphasis on religion has dropped to the point where you can't tell it, even there. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Going from Raleigh into the military, you had, just like you have most places, isolated incidents. Mississippi was the grossest place, however, as long as you stayed within your area, it's good times. I mean New Orleans, I visited New Orleans and boy was it good times. Pascagoula, Pass Christian, a lot of towns. I even had a quartet while I was in the Air Force and on Sundays our chaplain would take us from churches to churches where we would sing. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And of course, life was carefree because we stayed in our little groups. In England, none. I couldn't feel any at all there. In fact, I was never called docky, which is what they would call a Black man in England. You were a docky. Because there you had prominent people from Africa and from the West Indies, and that was really the melting pot of the world where people who had anything could rise to any level they wanted to provided they had the contacts. So I mean no segregation at all. That's the way I felt, really free. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Coming back to the States, the next sting I had was at Penn State where I had the prejudice professors. In fact, the chairman of my committee who determined whether you were to receive your master's degree was very prejudice, very prejudice. Then there were instructors from Mississippi who were very prejudice. In Fayetteville and Virginia Beach. As long as you maintain your level of living, you were accepted both by the Blacks and Whites. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Except that you'd get in a very, very prejudice group, you didn't ever notice. I didn't ever notice that. So as far as going along the lines of prejudice, I can't say that I have experienced anything because I've always tried to carry myself in a amiable way where I can get along with anybody. And you don't have to like me for me to like you. I might not like your ways, but I like you. I might not like what you do, but I like you. So whenever you're doing your thing that I don't agree with, I try to stay out of your way. So that's the way I've maintained my life up until this point. 

Blair Murphy: How did you see to segregation happening here in Virginia? Because it was segregating when you arrived. 

Donald Edward Morgan: How did I see it? 

Blair Murphy: How did it function? 

Donald Edward Morgan: Well, like I said, Sidney Kellam was the main administrative leader in this city, and he was such a amiable person as far as the Blacks were concerned because he would do lots of favors for you. Even when you were down, he would do favors for you, he would get you things. Even beyond the point where other political figures might not see you're getting it, all he had to do was to say, "Give it to him," and it was there. He met with the heads of all departments, every department head, and he simply told them that night. He said, "Tomorrow morning," he said, "I don't want to see no signs saying Colored or White." This was at night now, late at night, he made that announcement. This city is going to be desegregated." 

Blair Murphy: What was his office? 

Donald Edward Morgan: Who, Sidney Kellam? 

Blair Murphy: Sidney Kellam. 

Donald Edward Morgan: He didn't have a political title. He was a founder of Kellam and Eaton Insurance Company, but he was a powerful political figure and he was a very likable old man. But he had so much clout that none of the figures ever challenged him until 1965 and they formed another party. But he called all the head of department, including hotel and motel managers, said, "If you don't want to desegregate your motel, or hotel, or restaurant, close up right now." Do you know that same night, these departments got paint, painted over every sign that said Colored or White only? That was erased. 

Blair Murphy: Why do you think he did it so quickly and in this manner? 

Donald Edward Morgan: Why he did it? Because he was [indistinct 00:11:19] type of fella and he knew that it would come in sooner or later, so he desegregated the city as far as it goes. Well, I happened to be in the same position as science supervisor when our superintendent, 1964, decided that it's time to desegregate the schools. So he chose four Blacks and four Whites. I was among the four Blacks. And we went from city to city and from state to state studying where they had said they were desegregated already. 

Donald Edward Morgan: We happened to go into South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina, where they said they were desegregated, and what we heard from the superintendent's wife and what we heard from one of the teachers who was reprimanded right there in front of us for saying what she said, we knew that desegregation didn't work there. It hadn't even broken the surface because it was just on paper, it wasn't apparent in the schools. 

Donald Edward Morgan: We therefore looked at situations where we have learned certain things, and we went into Northern Virginia where we looked at the cities right around Washington DC who was supposed to be desegregated, but they had more private schools and mostly White schools, very little Black population. In fact, it was finite. Where they published papers and say that this is the way it is but it wasn't really that week. But we did notice two professors there at University of South Carolina that really impressed us and we had them come back to Virginia Beach where we had a desegregation session before school opened, where all the principals were required to come to that. It really worked because we had a desensitizing session where you sat before a White man, you call him a honky or cracker, and he'd call you nigger, and Black, and whatever it is. You sat there, and you looked each other in the eye, and you got it out of your system. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Since we were the people who had made this thing evident to the city, we didn't have to really do anything but oversee what was going on in the sessions. But believe it or not, Virginia Beach desegregated the schools with those sessions. Those in—service meetings did a lot of good because we did it with only two incidents where the population was mostly White and two kids got in fights there where you could see it was racial. But that was held to a minimum, but whenever the situations came about, those persons who went on these search and see trips were called to those schools. I was one in [indistinct 00:15:37], Junior was another one, and we would go to these schools where that infraction might have occurred and the several things like that. It was done so smooth. This city was done smooth, the schools were done smooth. 

Blair Murphy: Because I know they had a lot of trouble in Norfolk. 

Donald Edward Morgan: That's Norfolk. 

Blair Murphy: Yeah. But that was a few years before Virginia Beach. 

Donald Edward Morgan: But Virginia Beach went into it so smooth because we in—service people before we desegregate. We told them what was going to be and it's up to you to get it done or you leave your job, you ship out. You shape up or you ship out. That's just the way it was. And same thing with Mr. Kellam when he told them, says to them, "Either desegregate or you close up your shop, because you're finished if you don't." There was no ultimatum. I mean no choice. You were given an ultimatum in which you did this or else. In the years prior to this, prior to my coming here, back in '40s, for instance, the Blacks couldn't even walk on the beach. The boardwalk was boardwalk then, now it's concrete. But back in those days it was board. 

Blair Murphy: Like Atlantic City. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Yeah. And the Blacks weren't allowed on the beach. You had a section here which was separated by certain streets, and beyond that point, Blacks didn't go. You had your Black businesses, you had your White businesses. And of course, the Blacks had a good time. I remember those days. I had a good time when I was young, and running the clubs, and drinking, and carousing. I had a good time in the Black section. I didn't want to go into the White section. The beach phase me at all. In fact, we had Ocean View as our beach. That was over here on the Bayside, Northern Virginia. That was Ocean View. That was the Black beach. We had just as good a time over there as the Whites had in our own way with our own people. The only thing that was evident to me over there was the jellyfish. 

Blair Murphy: They always gave Blacks to beach where the jellyfish would wash up. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Well, not necessarily because Virginia Beach at one time, most of the ocean front was owned by Blacks. Now, I don't know whether you read the history of Virginia Beach or not, but the slave owners at one time had this property, but when the civil war came about, the Blacks were given this because the Whites didn't know how to raise any crops in saltwater land, so they just left it and gave it to the slave that worked for them. So most of the ocean front was owned by Blacks. 

Blair Murphy: Because it was considered bad land. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Yeah. I mean I guess until the Jews found out what kind of money you could make there. And then most of the functions, most of the hotels owned by Jews who catered to Jews who would come there for the summer, and it was made of cottages. Not the high rise hotel, it was mostly the two or three story cottages that were there. And they would come in, you would eat in a dining room. It was not bed and breakfast, it was you come and stay in a room, and you got meals, and you'd go to the beach, do whatever you wanted to do. The life then on the beach was what we would term trivial now, because there was nothing over four stories high except the Cavalier Hotel, which during the second World War we used as Army headquarters. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Any of the places around here still have graveyards. For instance, Princess Anne Country Club still has a Black graveyard for the Atkinsons who own that land. They still own that golf course. You'll find that many of the families here were prominent because they were landowners back in those days. Right now, a section back here called Owl's Creek, that's still owned by Blacks but the Whites want it so bad because it goes right to the Rudee Inlet. They bought out Ocean View, so that took away the Black beach. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Seems like the Blacks are gullible from money even though they can't see that they can get very much more money for it in years later, because I know Ocean View, they bought that for [indistinct 00:21:33]. Because I know the fella who is the son of the owner of Ocean View, he worked in the maintenance department, but back in those days, he drove around Cadillacs. He was in the money. Ocean View was a big beach for Blacks, but no more. You got condominiums, and high rise condominiums, and townhouse over there now. 

Blair Murphy: Would Black travelers come to Ocean View or is it just mostly— 

Donald Edward Morgan: Oh, yes. And they had the Black motel there. Yeah, the Blacks would come in and stay at the rooming houses. That's what we had here in Virginia Beach where you'd rent a room, and we had plenty of room for out—of—town guests. In Virginia Beach, you had some of the best clubs where most of the best bands, the Black bands, would come to. We had a place called Town Club here. Oh man, you had the biggest bands that would come to that club. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Yes, indeed. We had our own things. But of course, it seems as if Black people don't party all week long. The White establishments can stay open because they participate in those places all week long, not just Friday, Saturday, Sunday. They go there in the afternoon or at night, so that person can keep on growing, and growing, and growing, but the Black folks, they'd rather stay at home and cook at home. And many times on the weekend, instead of going to these Black clubs, they would have their functions outdoors. 

Donald Edward Morgan: In the summertime, they would have cookouts and picnics at their home instead of taking these people to Black establishments. And that's the reason why many of them failed because they didn't have the clientele that could afford to party all week long. And of course, the economy was the reason, and then there was selfishness, and we had our own types of crime back in those days. But it never included a whole lot of shooting like it does today. You got cut, you got beat, but you didn't get shot. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Not as easily as you can now. It's a whole lot of difference between then and now. Fist fights used to settle a fight. Knives, you always carried a knife, but you weren't always allowed to reach it. So you considered fist fights, cuts, bruises, tables and chairs bashed over your head, stuff like that, but very seldom would you hear a person shooting another person. When I came here, there was only one Black high school, that was Princess Anne County Training School, which was renamed Union Kempsville in '64. 

Blair Murphy: So was it renamed when desegregation began? 

Donald Edward Morgan: I think it was either maybe '63 or '64, it became Union Kempsville High School. 

Blair Murphy: Do you think that was because of desegregation, the change? 

Donald Edward Morgan: No, actually the subdivision— 

Blair Murphy: Changed the name. 

Donald Edward Morgan: — of that area. You see, that was the witched up section. Union Kempsville, that was a major train stop there, and you can see it on the cornerstone of one of the buildings there. They've changed that to the Center for Effective Learning and part of it is a portion of maintenance, some section. See, I remember when it was a small place, and then they built onto it, and added other warehouses and stuff to it until it no longer looks like what it originally was. Back in those days when I was assistant principal, they even built a stadium there. The only stadium. Small, it was the smallest. It really was small enough to contain a football field, where you had concrete section over this side and then the wooden section over that side of the stadium. 

Donald Edward Morgan: But in this city, what you're seeing now is more hatred, bigotry, drugs, alcoholism that is influencing a lot of the people here. Therefore, we find it worse than it was before desegregation. Gangs. Getting more gang activity here than we've ever seen before. I never heard of gangs in Virginia Beach until here recently. Because I retired 4 years ago, '91. I had enough. I'd gone through six superintendents and each superintendent had a different idea. So with each change in administration, you have a change in your program. Well, really it's like revisions, you say the same thing but you say it in a different way. I try to keep the science department on the even keel by not accepting all of the new trends, because the trend don't necessarily mean that it's better than what you have. 

Donald Edward Morgan: I would let the teachers be a good influence on what was to be taught because they were the ones to be in the classroom with those students, and I'd give them a basic amount of knowledge to be learned, now how are we going to teach this? That's the way I conducted my science department. You tell me that it will work for all students if you change it this way, I don't believe it. Nothing out there is going to work for all students. I remember changing to many of the new trends because of the other cities doing so, and it was not a demand as such, but it was expected that you would keep up with modern trends by accepting a certain amount of the newer programs. Well, when I saw absolute obedience that was expected of new programs, I went ahead with it, but I told them in the front it wasn't going to work. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Give you an idea, the physical science program, IPS, it was supposed to have a certain way of teaching kids by making them answer their own question, inquiry, but it had a necessity attached to it. You had to know your basic math percentages and ratios determinants before you got into this program because that's what it started with. And of course, if you didn't have that good basic background in math, you couldn't even go into IPS. Then you came to BSCS, biological science study program. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Biological Science Curriculum Study, BSCS. You had the green version, which was ecological, you had the blue version, which was mostly academic, you had the yellow version, which was highly academic. You had, it was called the ecological, the cellular, molecular approaches to biology, but it didn't work either. We tried it for several years and it didn't work, faded out. So it got to the point where we went back to you design your own program, you may use this as a tool, but it's not the basal text. Well, I've talked enough, I've talked your ears off, about segregation of desegregation. 

Blair Murphy: He's a—