- Well, Judy, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed. If we can just get some background information. Could you say your full name? - My name is Judith Allen Kim, the Reverend Judith Allen Kim. - Wonderful. How is Allen spelled? - A-L-L-E-N - Great. Good. And are you lay or clergy? - Clergy. - And your denomination? - Presbyterian Church U.S.A - Thank you so much. And Judy when and where were you born? - I was born in 1946 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. - Oh, great. And where did you go to school? Graduate or divinity school? - I went to, after Macalester College I was a teacher for a while and then I went to United Theological Seminary of the Twin Cities. - Wonderful. And what worker ministry were you doing at the time of Re-Imagining? - (chuckles) I was trying to think about that on the way here. (Interviewer chuckles) I was ordained as an interim pastor at West Minister in 1989 and I went on to do several interim pastorates. And I don't actually remember where I was in 1993. - I don't blame you. - But I was an interim pastor at a Presbyterian church in the Twin Cities area. - Okay. That's good enough, yes. (laughs) - I could find out the exact answer if you needed to know. - That's fine. - Okay. - And what worker ministry did you do after Re-Imagining? - Well, I did a lot of other ecumenical work. I was on the board of the Minnesota Council of Churches, as a Presbyterian representative. I worked with other ecumenical bodies but mostly, I stayed as an interim pastor at various Presbyterian churches. Except five years at Wayzata Community Church, which is UCC. - Okay. And did you say you're at West Minister Presbyterian now? - I am, as a parish associate, which is a volunteer clergy position for retired pastors. But I do about 10 hours a week of pastoral calling, usually hospital and nursing home visitation. - Oh, wonderful. - Yeah, it is a wonderful position to be able to do. I'm also a volunteer bible study leader during the year. We just finished our bible study year. - I love it. And that's at West Minister, as well? - At West Minister. - Oh. - So after I retired, I went back to where I was ordained and where I first was a pastor. And then these other things evolved out of that, the fact that I was worshiping there. - Oh, I love it. That's great. Now do you recall how or when you first became aware of feminist theology? - Well, that would be at, even before I went to United Seminary because I think we had, I was a member of Oak Grove Presbyterian Church in Bloomington and we would occasionally have pastors or teachers from United Seminary teach adult education classes. And I think that's where I first became aware of it. - Um-hmm. - But it has, has bubbled up in me for a long, long time. I think it says in the book, I was surprised that it said, had the little story about when I was in seminary. And my son, who was in the third grade at the time, had to write a paper about God and wrote, "God is a good dude or dudette." So I knew I'd had some influence on this child. (both laughing) I'm not sure about the older ones. He got that idea, God is good and God is neither male nor female. - Yes. - I love that he, he got that. - Yes. And at a young age, already! - At a young age, third or fourth grade. I'm not sure which. - That is wonderful. Yeah. - Yeah. - Do you recall, kinda your reaction to feminist theology? - It was like, bring it on! (Interviewer laughs) It's what I've been waiting for. - Yes. - This is, and I knew Sally Hill before I went to seminary. So I was exposed to these wonderful women who were doing feminist theology in a quieter way. Sally Hill, Sheila Gustafson, Marianne Lundy. I mean, I grew up in St. Luke Church where Mar, My parents were charter members of that church where Marianne Lundy's was the, husband was the pastor. - Oh, right. - Her ex-husband. - Yes, yes. Dick Lundy. - Who was one of the participants in the conference. Did she tell you he was asked to change tables? - Yes, she did tell me that story. Yes, she did, yes. - Some woman complained about having a man at her table. - That's right. - And it was Dick Lundy. - It was Dick Lundy, yes. That's right. I'm actually going to be interviewing him too. - Oh, good! - So I want to hear his perspective, as well. - Good, good, good. - That's wonderful. - Yeah. - Good. If we could move to Re-Imagining. - Okay. - I would love to hear about you relationship to Re-Imagining. How you first got involved, we can start with that. - I don't even know how I first got involved. (both laugh) I just know that I was rec, probably by Sally Hill, was recruited to be on the Program Committee, starting in 1990. And it was already underway, this whole idea of the Ecumenical Decade, the churches in solidarity with women, and Marianne Lundy had some money. She had some money and she earmarked it for this conference that we were going to plan that was har, you know, in the very beginning stages. - Yes. - But she saved that money just for this conference. And so, Marianne and Sally really were the beginning, the very beginning. And then they recruited all these women they knew locally and then, it grew and grew and grew. - You know you have an important story to tell, as being involved really early on. I would love to hear what you remember about how this whole thing evolved, what you remember about that process, or what it was like. - It evolved slowly and I would say, I guess the current buzzword is organically. But I think that's how it grew. I mean, first we were looking at, as the Program Committee, looking at people we knew to be teachers and preachers and people who we knew were already into feminist theology. But because we talked, we, some people talked in denominational heads and other people around the country we got the names of so many other people we'd never heard of who ended up being these fabulous speakers. And it was probably, probably pivotal for them to have been invited to be in this conference from around the world. - Yeah. - And so I loved the way it grew, just grew in ways we hadn't foreseen when we first started out saying we're going to have this conference. - Yeah. - This one-time deal. - Yeah. And I wonder, you wrote a little bit about this in your great essay in "Re-membering and Re-Imagining," about how, could you say a little bit more about how the speakers developed to include women of color, women around the world, what that... - You know, I didn't do that part of it myself. I think Sally Hill did a lot of that, and Marianne did. - Did they? Yeah. - Because I didn't know these women from around the world. This was all new to me. - Yeah. - You know, I knew the Letty Russell and Beverly Harrison and these people that were kind of in our world. - Right. - And I actually also went to a conference at Ghost Ranch in New Mexico, the year before the conference and Marianne was there and Letty Russell was there. - Hmm. - And it was sort of preparing for this. So all these other great thinkers just kept making the list of speakers grow and grow and grow so that we were exposed to things we'd never, ever dreamed we be hearing about. - Yeah. - Yeah. - From, would you talk a little bit about, it's the impression I have, and you can tell me if this is right or not, is it started out fairly small but then it just kept growing and getting, Is that right? - Right. I think that's true. I think probably it was originally going to be a one or two day conference and then all of a sudden it's a four day conference. And because we had so many wonderful speaker ideas sent to us and workshop ideas and all these various ideas for presenters, and we wanted to include as many. There was a lot of fundraising that went on so that women from around the world, lay and clergy, could come on scholarships, which was a really important part of deal. I didn't have to do any fundraising but somebody did. And it was partly the money that Marianne Lundy had squirreled away. - Yes. (both laugh) - Paying for that. But there were denominational contributions. I mean, denominations weren't expecting something that was going to be earth-shaking. - Yes, exactly. Yeah. - Well, some people in the Presbyterian denomination, I'm sure, had figured that out in advance but most people didn't. - Yeah, yeah. I mean, you say "some people." Do you mean -- - Some leaders in the Presbyterian church surely knew where, that this was going in a very feminist direction. - Right, right. Yeah, yeah. So you ruf-- - And didn't seem to be worried about that. - Oh, interesting. Yes, yeah. - That's interesting too. - We'll have to talk more about the backlash in a minute. - Okay. - So you were on the Program Committee. You were at the '93 conference. - Um-hmm. - Do you remember what that was like, what that experience was for you? - It was fabulous. I wished that I had gotten a room downtown so I didn't miss anything in the evening after the main programs were over. Every speaker had more to say that was new and fascinating to me. And the workshops, I mean, there were so many workshops. You couldn't attend half of them. - (chuckles) Right. - They were all wonderful. I mean, I thought, "How did we ever get this accumulation "of people in one room? "How did we, the big we, make this happen?" But it did. - Yeah. - It did. - Are there certain moments that stand out to you from that conference? - Well, certainly the worship, and the rituals that we did, the ones that made us look like goddess worshipers to some more conservative folks. The language was so beautiful, all-inclusive language. Rituals that included women. Remembering and being told out loud, "Remember you're created in the Divine Image "with a uterus." - Mm-hmm, yes. - I mean, very earthy. This is it. Milk and Honey Ritual, very biblical. Oh how that was interpreted was crazy. - Exactly. Yes. - I mean, I really did not expect, because I hadn't thought forward from the event, I had not expected backlash. But when it hit, I was like "Oh yeah, of course we're going to get hit." - Mmm. Why did you think that, "Of course we're going to get hit"? - Well, just because, especially because of the worship that folks of a more conservative ilk would realize that this kind of worship was created by women for women and that men didn't have a damn thing to do with it. - Yeah. And so, how do you interpret why that was, Why they reacted the way they did? - I think so many men were really threatened by the idea of women doing theology. Because it had always been done by men before. It just never occurred to them that you could talk about being created in the Divine Image with a uterus. It just, it threatened so many people. I mean, it threatened women too but I, it was the men in leadership who caused the real problems, of course. - Yeah, yeah. Now were you directly affected by the backlash at all? - I was not. Because I was, First of all, everyone knew I was part of it so I, you know, I read Judy Strauss's essay - Yes. - About, and I knew that Judy and I were good friends. We were at the conference at Ghost Ranch as roommates the year before Re-Imagining, so we were all over this. And I know that she was very worried and she would never put that in her resume because she was moving. I mean, she remarried a former denominational executive. She moved to Pittsburgh, where there'd been a lot of backlash. So just because I was local and even if I'd wanted to hide it, I couldn't have. - Yes. I'll just add, I'm going to interview her too. I'm looking forward to it. - Oh, good. Oh good. - Yes, yes, yes. So let's, that's good to know. That's great. So it didn't affect you personally but obviously people you knew were really affected. - Oh yes. Certainly Marianne, being fired. I mean, it was just appauling. We were all, we couldn't believe. And we knew that she had support of a lot of people quietly. She talks about her colleagues quietly supporting her but in public, being examined by a General Assembly committee and not being allowed to speak, not being, not allowing people to thank her for her contribution. I mean, that was just appauling. - This was a General Assembly, people wanted to publicly thank her? Could you say whi -- - I just read her piece. - Yes, sure. - So it's in there. - Yes. - It was at a General Assembly meeting where they were interviewing her, or they were dealing with the backlash. - Right. - And she said something to the effect of, "My colleagues were individually supportive of me "but I was not allowed to speak." - Mm-hmm, yes. - "And when people got up at the end to thank me, "they were ruled out of order." - Mm-hmm. Were you at General Assembly where they talked about Re-Imagining? - I was. I went to testify. - You did? - That's not in the book. - I want to hear about this. This is really important. - So there was committee dealing with Re-Imagining backlash. - Mm-hmm. - And the General Assembly was in Kansas City. I was not a commissioner but I went just to testify to this committee about Re-Imagining. And I was given a very short time limit, maybe three minutes, so I had actually written it out. I didn't read it but I had it in front of me. And the basis of my testimony was, the church has always re-imagined itself. And if it hadn't, it would have died out as a group of Jewish fishermen. - Um-hmm. - This was the bottom line of my testimony. (chuckles) - Oh. So you, first of all, you volunteered to do this, right? - I volunteered to do that because I wanted to be supportive. - Yes. - And I wanted to say this was a wonderful thing. One of the interesting things about that General Assembly is sitting and talking with a man who was obviously very conservative but had listened to every single one of those tapes on his drive to Kansas City from wherever he was from. He had listened to all those conversations and I thought, even if he's a conservative man, he's gotta be in some positive way influenced by what happened in all those conversations, all those lectures, and worship. - Yeah. - It's got to have affected, and he seemed pretty gentle when he talked to me. - Did he? - It wasn't an attack. He was clearly conservative but he was not attacking me. - Yes, yes. - It was just, we're having a conversation over lunch and I said, "I just am so ecstatic "that you listened to every one of those tapes." - Yes, yeah. And there was a conversation. - Yeah, there was a conversation. - Yeah. - So I go to have that. - Now did you get any reaction to your testimony. - "Thank you." That was it, nothing else. - And what was your reaction to the report that came out of General Assembly? (Judy sighs) And I know it's been a while. (laughs) - Well, the report that came out, and it's funny because they've used this now in other instances, was called "Theology Matters." - Um-hmm. - And "Theology Matters" was a way of saying what we did, was theology but it wasn't their theo, It wasn't the theology of a lot of the people in power. - Yeah. - Though it was the theology of some of the people in power. - Yeah. - And every once in a while, I see something up coming up where they use that "Something Matters," "Black Lives Matter." - Right, right. - But there have been several others since then, that have come up, using that phrase but that was what they came up with. And I thought, "Well, that part is true. "Theology does matter." It's like, it is true. God is good and God is neither male nor female and theology matters. And the denomination has to deal with it's right wing conservatives. And this is how they did it. And it ended up with Marianne being fired and people being afraid to say they were a part of this movement. - Yeah. - And yet, they were. - Yes. - They were. So yes, and theology done by women matters. - Yeah. - Why would it all be done by men? Really, why? - Yeah. So what do you think the net result was of the backlash and the report that came out, the testimonies? - It made some people stronger in their convictions as feminist theologians. - Yes. - Feminist thinkers. And it made other, it made some people, especially in more conservative areas afraid to voice what they believed. - Yes. - But it also made the organization continue as an organization instead of a one-time conference. - Right, right. There was one part of that report I wanted to get your reaction to, if you remember. - Yeah. - One of the comments was, it talked about how, you know, theological work by women is important and everything. I believe one of the phrases in it is something about, this went beyond the boundaries of Reformed Theology. So how would you respond to that? - Well, a lot of that was driven by those conservative reporters who came to our meetings from especially the Presbyterian Layman was the worst. - Mm-hmm. - The group that accused us of worshiping a goddess because we sang to Sophia, Wisdom. Not a woman but wisdom, sophia wisdom. (Judy sighs) It was so depressing that the ideas came out in those conservative, in the conservative press. And then that Presbyterian conservative press affected other denominations. - Mm-hmm. - They got the Methodists, little bit the Lutherans. They got to other groups but it was primarily lead by the conservative Presbyterians. So the money originally came from the Presbyterians, the backlash of, the biggest part of the backlash started with the Presbyterians. - It did. - So I've already forgotten what you actually asked me. - Oh about the beyond the beyond the boundary. - Oh beyond the boundaries. It was considered beyond the boundaries because, especially because of our worship. And because we had a Milk and Honey Ritual that was considered, that was clearly beyond the boundaries, that we should create something taken right out of the Bible and make it into a ritual. - Yes. - That and the Sophia, those were the things that really got people up in arms. And then Nancy Chin's artwork that happened during our discussions of the female body. - Mm-hmm. - That were so lovely. So lovely and yet, pretty offensive to men who couldn't understand what we were doing. The Presbyterian Layman was so ready to attack us. I mean, we knew they were coming, we knew they were ready to attack us but we never expected, I never expected that it would be as bad as it was. Maybe Marianne did. - And they had been involved before in, Presbyterian Layman. - Yeah, and they have attacked everything more progressive. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's really helpful. Now were you part of the committee that helped to establish the community? - I was, I was. - I really want to hear about that. What was that like? What was people's reactions afterward? How did that happen? - Well, it was again one of those things that we hadn't planned and it just had to happen. I mean, there was no question. We had to continue. We had to fight this backlash. We had to keep educating people. We had to keep teaching and preaching. It was as if we didn't have a choice. We had to do it. And so this lovely group of women was meeting in the basement of a Minnesota Church center for a long, for years. I mean, I stayed on the committee for many years until we finally outlasted a kind of budget. I mean, we created those, more and more conferences. I went to every one of them. I have the tapes from every one of them, if you need any extra tapes. - Thank you. - And we just had to keep going. We just had to. - So it really wasn't even a debate, so much? - It really wasn't. It's like, it's obvious. - Right. - Obvious we had to keep going. - Yes, yeah. And then, do you remember how it evolved into the more conferences, faith labs, small groups, I mean, the publications. It was so much. - Yeah, there was so much. Oh that's right, our publications. I'd forgotten about those. - Yeah. - Yeah. It just kept growing as we saw the need to keep educating and teaching and preaching and opening people's minds. And there were so many people with these great ideas. I mean, people who knew how to do publications. People who knew. Pam Joern was such an amazing part of the whole conference. The play she wrote for the conference and then the things she did afterwards continue to make the organization stronger and more creative and imaginitive, bringing in the arts that we did from the very beginning. I didn't mention that earlier, the drawing on the table, on the paper table cloths. - Yes. - It was the first time I was ever exposed Cray-Pas. Now I love Cray-Pas. I have ever since. - Ah! - So I have them for my grandchildren to play with. To be able to sit and do that while you're listening to a lecture was very freeing. So these creative people kept bringing more and more of these things in so that we could keep teaching. - Yes, yes. - Keep reaching people. - Yeah. You know, you mentioned you went to all of the conferences, which is fantastic. And I'm sure you don't remember every detail of every one of them. (chuckles) - I certainly don't. - I'm just won, yeah, Are there any moments that stand out for you? It's been a while, I know. - Yeah. - But any moments in particular? - Well, it was always the worship. - Yes. - It was always the worship and the rituals that bless Sophia. - Yes. - The things that we did that we continue doing to raise up this divine female image and this divine female image in each of us. - Yes, yeah, yeah. Did you belong to a small group at some point? - I didn't belong to a small group but I was on these committees for many years. (both laugh) I don't remember how many years. - That is wonderful. So, how would you define Re-Imagining? What is it or was it? - Did I write, Did I write anything down here? Let's see. I wrote down, "It was always open to the Holy Spirit "with an emphasis on women doing theology "from a woman's point of view." But it's the re-imagining, it's the imagining part that was so important. Re-Member, Re-Imagine, Re-Put Together, Re-Create, all these things that we did was part of that, being open to the Holy Spirit and realizing that women could do theology. - Mm-hmm. Exactly, yes. How did feminist theology affect the structure and functioning of the community, as you look at it? - Well, I think it stayed very inclusive, very open. When you go back to the idea of the round tables that we had at the first conference, we carried that idea through. When I have gone to a meeting over at Plymouth, we've been in a circle. So we continue that inclusive image of the, we're all equal contributors to the story. - What was it like, you mentioned you were involved in the planning and committees and everything. What was it like being on those Re-Imagining-type committees? - It was amazing the things that came up and the ideas that came up were just all over the place. And I do remember there was a man on our committee who, I think was a man and wife and they were both maybe Episcopalians and they both eventually dropped off. And it was, I was always curious about that. What happened that made them drop off? Did they know there was going to be a backlash? Were they afraid or were they just not interested? I mean, I don't know. - Yeah. This was the first. - The first. - Before the '93 conference. - Yeah. - Yeah, yes, yes. - Yeah, the, yeah. The Program Committee that I joined in 1990 had these interesting people but some of them disappeared and you never quite knew why they had dropped off. - Right. Yeah, yeah. - And some of them were just always there, no matter what. - There were people who were involved pretty much the whole time, weren't there? - Yeah. Sally Hill, Pam Joern, Marianne but she wasn't in the Twin Cities but yeah. Nancy Berneking, who put this together. - Yes. - And who died a long time ago, already. - I know. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. Well, what kind of challenges did the community face while it was in existence? - Well, certainly fundraising. - Mm-hmm. - To have a publication, to pay rent on an office and a copy machine and all those things that we had never planned on. - Right. - It was hard, hard to raise money. We all had to pay some money to be members of the community. I don't remember how much. And some people, not me, but some people had to do some fundraising beyond that. And got money from, like St. Luke Church gave some money every year towards the ongoing community. I don't know what other places did but, and we had enough tie-in there that we could do that. I suppose the other challenge was the women who felt frightened and afraid to admit that they were part of this. - Right. - And they were not so likely to be on and on-going committee. - Mm-hmm. - And some of them should have been. Would have been, could have been. Would have been better if we'd had more of these voices of people who were afraid to be named a heretic. - Right. - A witch. - Yeah. (Judy chuckles) Yeah. Talking about this, I just have to ask you, what did it feel like to be labeled a heretic and a goddess worshiper and, (both laugh) - I thought, "You've got to be kidding! (both laugh) "You can't really mean this, you crazy people!" - And why did you react that way? (both laugh) - Well, it had never occurred to me that I would be labeled as such a thing. I mean, this sort of ordinary, run-of-the-mill Presbyterian. (both laugh) Never occurred to me, I'd be called a witch. - Yes. - And I mean, I, It was hard for me to take it seriously because I knew it was so absurd. I knew we didn't worship a goddess. - Mm-hmmm, mm-hmm, yeah. - So as you look at it, what aspects of Re-Imagining were most significant to you and why? - Well, I would say the connections with the women I worked with were most significant. The ritual and worship were most significant. And those are the parts that continue in my daily life and when I create a liturgy for something that I might be doing, there's that feminist aspect that always is in there, whether anyone notices or not. - So would you say that Re-Imagining really influenced the way you do liturgy? - Absolutely. - Wow. - Absolutely. - Could you say a little more about that? What makes it feminist? (Judy chuckles) - Hmm. Well, of course, we never use the word God, the pronoun "he" for God. And it's amazing how people have adapted to that, pretty well. I remember an argument with a woman at a church who didn't like my not using God "he". It wasn't an argument, it was a discussion. And she said she was really upset by this. And I said, "Well, do you think God is really a man?" And she said, "Well, no." "Do you think God is a woman?" "No." "Well, if God is beyond male or female "then why do we always use the pronoun he?" And she sorta took it in but she was troubled by it. - Yeah. - I see, well certainly in the context where I am now at West Minister, I don't see many people troubled by inclusive language. But that's certainly in everything that I do. - Yeah. - Everything. - And is it mostly using the term "God" instead of he or using feminine? Or how's it usually work out? - It's interesting. I've taught my grandchildren, when I pray with them at night, to say the Lord's Prayer, "Our God who art in heaven." At St. Luke they say, "Our Mother and Father who art in heaven" in their worship. We say, most of us in most context, say, "Our Father who art in heaven" but in my mind it's always either "Mother and Father" or "Our God" even if I say "Father". - Yes. - That language is always with me. But it's also all the images of women in the Bible, though. The mother hen protecting her chicks under her wings. The one who brings water. All those feminine images that people had ignored for a long time, hadn't even noticed were there. - Exactly. Yeah. - There all there. - Yeah, they are. - Even in that patriarchal language and culture. Those images are there. I don't ever forget those. - And I think you're already talking about this but I wonder if you want to say a little bit more about how Re-Imagining affected your view on theology or liturgy, the church? - Well the church is slow to change but I'm happy to be in a community that is very open to feminist theology. I had a wonderful experience as an interim pastor where I was an interim associate pastor with a woman head of staff. And I love to put this in the record, - Please. - We used to joke about the fact that there wasn't even a steeple on the church, there wasn't a phallic symbol anywhere and we were doing just fine. (both laugh) - And so that really, the church was responsive and welcoming. - But it was this same church where I had this conversation with this woman who didn't like inclusive language. - Ah, yes, yeah. - So they adapted. They adapted. Now when I'm a bible study leader at West Minister, there are still some women who only use the male pronoun and I don't correct them. Somebody did once, and I was stunned rudely. I didn't like it. But -- - I think I know why, but say, why? Why don't you correct them? - I think if your image of God has always been "God he" and you haven't figured out a way to open up that image, then why take away that sense of security you have for "God he"? You're talking about an 85 year old woman who says "God he." Why would I change that? I don't use that myself but why would I correct her? And it really was rude when this other woman did correct her. - Sounds like a pastoral concern. - Yeah, it was. - Yes, yeah. What specific contributions do you think Re-Imagining made to theology and liturgy? - I think it changed the whole world. I really do. You know, I can really only speak to how it changed things in the Progressive Presbyterian Churches. But I know that the ripples were much wider than that. I don't know what really, ultimately happened with the Methodists. I think it made it easier for gay and lesbian people to be, to feel part of the church. I think that was one of the things that was nudged open by Re-Imagining. Now, probably trans-gender people, that same kind of opening I think is there for trans-gender people. We have a seminary student at West Minister who considers herself "Z" which I hadn't heard before. - Yeah, yeah. And so despite the backlash. - Despite the backlash. - It still moved things forward. - It did. Absolutely, moved things forward. - Yeah, yeah. So looking back on it, what do you think is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining? - The greatest legacy is that a lot of people had figured out that women can do theology. From a female point of view. From a point of view of a person with a uterus. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yes, yeah. - I think that's it. I think that's the bottom line. - Right. - And not only can do theology, but need to do theology cause so much has been done just from a male point of view in our Christian history. And all of our theology until rather recently was all done by men who never thought about what it was like to be created in the Divine Image with a uterus. - Mm-hmm, exactly. Yeah. So what does Re-Imagining mean today? And I don't just mean the Re-Imagining Community but what do you see needs to be re-imagined in the church, in society? - Well, there's still a lot that needs re-imaging. - Yes, yeah. - There's still a lot. I wish the words of institution for our communion service were. I wish we could take out the blood of Christ part of that, that could be re-imaged in a much better way. I tend to fudge when I do communion. I don't like to use those words, even to say "the cup of the new covenant "in Christ's blood." I don't think that's really very helpful. - Yeah, say some more about that. - to saved people. Those images of Christ's blood, I understand were very important in the beginning of the Church and then there's the weird part about the Catholics thinking that that was, becomes literally Christ's blood. I mean, that's creepy to me. And I know other cultures that have been involved in blood and drinking the blood of the whatever, and it's creepy. And I think it's hard for my children's generation to get their head around that at all. And so, thinking, "Well, this sounds like canibalism to me." So I wish we could, I really wish we could change that part of it. - Could I ask then, this sounds really interesting. So re-imagining that the, for example the Eucharist, what does a re-imagined Eucharist look like? - I don't know. I haven't tried to create that, but I think it could be done. I think it could be done. I'll think about that some more. - Good, good. I have a really specific question for you. - Okay. - And you already know about this, that we're working on the website. - Right. - And I'm just trying to get ideas from people about what would be helpful to have in it, and how we could spread the word, who would benefit from it. Any suggestions, ideas you have, we're eager to hear them. - It would be lovely if Pam Carter Joern's play were on the website. - Great idea. - And now I've forgotten, which one. There was one called, "I've prayed 'Our Father' for too long." - Yes, it was "Simple," was it "Simple Gifts," The 1993 one? - Yeah. - About the Shakers? - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yes. The one you're thinking of? - Yeah. - Yes. - But also the one before that, I though she wrote. Maybe someone else wrote it, called "I prayed 'Our Father' for too long" but I went to it with my husband, my ex-husband, and another couple. We two women were both crying at the end of it and both of our husbands were looking at us like, "What's the deal?" They didn't get it at all, either one of them. They both became ex-husbands. - Yes. - So, yes. The things that Pam has written have been so pivotal, I think, to the whole movement. And I think as much of that as we can on the website as possible, would be wonderful. - That's a great idea. People haven't mentioned that before but I think you're right, absolutely. Good. - And I think it would be fine to put on the website about my testimony about if the church hadn't re-imagined itself, it would have died out as a group of Jewish fishermen. - Mm-hmm. Good, good. Yes! (both laugh) - That's my favorite line ever. - It is. That is great. - Absolutely. - Well, Judy, is there anything we haven't talked about that you would like to add? - I would like to add that I'm grateful for the backlash. - Oh, say some more about that. - Because it allowed us to continue and to keep growing and learning and expanding our vision of what was, what's in this created world for us. - Mm-hmm. - So I look back and I think, "Thank God there are all those people who were upset and made us continue." Cause we really had to. - Yes. That's great. And a great place to end, I think. - Okay. - Thank you, so much.