Paul Ortiz: Mr. Quinn, can you tell me where you were born and some information about the area that you grew up in? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I was born in Fort Deposit, Alabama. That's in Lowndes County. 'Course, I don't know anything about my stay there because my parents moved to Tuskegee when I was a young age. I guess I must have been somewhere around two years old when we came to Tuskegee. Hersey Copeland Quinn: So I don't know anything about living in Fort Deposit, Lowndes County. My first knowledge of light was when we were living here in Tuskegee. Paul Ortiz: And how did your family come to move to Tuskegee? Hersey Copeland Quinn: My father was a World War I veteran. After he got out of service, he came to Tuskegee to further his education. Paul Ortiz: And where in Tuskegee did your family settle down? Hersey Copeland Quinn: We lived over in the Greenwood community. Paul Ortiz: Greenwood? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Right. Paul Ortiz: Now, at that time, this would've been what year? 1920s? Hersey Copeland Quinn: This must have been about 1923 or '24, because I was born in 1922. Paul Ortiz: So in 1924— Now, you said this is the Greenwood community. Hersey Copeland Quinn: That's right. Paul Ortiz: Were there other communities and, I guess, what separated Greenwood or what distinguished Greenwood from other communities? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, I guess that was a neighborhood or the side of town, I guess I should say. Tuskegee, at that time, was more or less referred to according to communities. Had the Greenwood community, Rockefeller Hill, Zion Hill, communities like that. Paul Ortiz: Now with the Green— I'm sorry, Greenwood community, would that be people who were instructors at Tuskegee? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. More or less. Paul Ortiz: Okay. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. Quite a few of the people who lived in the Greenwood community were employed by Tuskegee University. 'Course, it was Tuskegee Institute at that time. Paul Ortiz: Now, I hadn't heard about— You said there was a Rockefeller community. Who would've lived there? Hersey Copeland Quinn: People are, well, basically the same as we were. The only thing about it, they lived on the other side of— They lived in another area. And the areas were referred to as communities. Paul Ortiz: Oh. They would've also been employees of the Institute? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. Of the Institute. And some worked in other areas, maybe the VA hospital. Paul Ortiz: Was there a community where people who didn't necessarily work for the Institute live in? Hersey Copeland Quinn: There were communities where people— Well. Now, most of the instructors at the Institute at that time lived in the Greenwood community. And some lived in the campus area. There were houses on campus, and many of them lived in houses on campus. Paul Ortiz: And so when you moved to Tuskegee in '23, 1924, your father was attending school at the Institute? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. Paul Ortiz: And your mother, was she working outside the home? Hersey Copeland Quinn: No, she was housewife. She didn't work outside home. Paul Ortiz: And did you have brothers and sisters? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. At that time I had— Let me get my statistics correct. I must have had two brothers and a sister. Paul Ortiz: What are some of your earliest childhood memories of growing up in Tuskegee? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, my memory of Tuskegee at that time is pretty short, because we didn't stay here very long. My father was in school here and when he finished his studies, we left Tuskegee. Hersey Copeland Quinn: He bought a farm in Shorter, Alabama. He was still in agriculture and 'course he bought this farm at Shorter. And he went— We moved there and we farmed there. Paul Ortiz: So he was going to school for about three years? Four? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I have no idea. I don't know. No. Hersey Copeland Quinn: He wasn't working on a degree program. It was— But whatever his study was he finished it. And after finishing, we moved to Shorter and he bought this farm. Paul Ortiz: Oh, now your family was able to buy their own farm. Do you know who they bought the farm from? And about how many acres it was? Hersey Copeland Quinn: It was between 80 and 90 acres. And he bought it from a lady named Camille Bowen. Paul Ortiz: Was she Black? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, she was Black. 'Cause she worked at, what was then, Alabama State College. It's Alabama State University now. Paul Ortiz: Do you remember having experiences with segregation, discrimination during these years in Shorter? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Paul Ortiz: Can you tell me about [indistinct 00:09:08]? Hersey Copeland Quinn: My experience was— Well, I'll say it like this. My parents sort of kept us shielded from most of the segregation to some extent. We didn't have much dealing with the— It was with the White race. Hersey Copeland Quinn: We, as children, didn't. My parents did, but we, as children, didn't come in contact with them much. And of course, we had segregated schools too. Bettie Barret Quinn: Didn't have a school buses. Hersey Copeland Quinn: No, didn't have school buses or anything. Bettie Barret Quinn: Did anyone provide you with transportation? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: Your parents would drive you to school? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, first of all, when I was in elementary school, when I first started school, we had an elementary school nearby. We walked to school. Hersey Copeland Quinn: After that, my parents drove us to school in his car. He would take us in the morning, come back and pick us up in the afternoon. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And 'course that went on all the way through elementary school. We didn't have school buses. White students has school buses but we didn't. And sometime we walked to school. And of course, when we walked to school, the White children would pass us on the school bus because we were walking to school. Paul Ortiz: When they would pass you on the school bus, would they ever— Any incidents where they would assault you? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, yeah. Sometimes they would, yeah. They would— Well, holler at us and make such remarks. Paul Ortiz: Now you said that your parents tried to shield you from discrimination, but they experienced that daily experiences. Do you know that some of those experiences are? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, most times going to the stores, my parents went to the stores, which the White people were in that area were operating at that time. Small stores. Instead of sending us, they would go most times. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And, of course, if when we went to the stores, one of them would go with is. 'Course my daddy was a cotton farmer. That was our main product. And 'course when he would take his cotton to the cotton gins, he would always go but he would take us with him sometime. Hersey Copeland Quinn: But he always went himself and transacted business with the people operating the stores and the gin where he ginned and sold his cotton. Paul Ortiz: Now, when he went to sell the cotton at the gin, did he ever talk about feeling that he was getting unfair price for his cotton or that? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, not really because at that time the prices were published in the paper on a daily basis and he sort of knew about what he was supposed to been getting for his cotton. Paul Ortiz: In Shorter, did you hear about, I guess, other cases of discrimination against Black people when you were a child, perhaps violence against Black people, lynchings, other kinds of—? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh yes, yes. Paul Ortiz: What kinds of things would happen? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Let me go back a little. This didn't happen in Shorter. But I had a cousin in Lowndes County who was lynched by a White mob. Now I didn't witness that because we were living at Shorter at the time. Hersey Copeland Quinn: But I heard my relatives talk about it as I was growing up. Paul Ortiz: Do you know of any of the events leading up to this? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Beg your pardon? Paul Ortiz: You know about any of the events leading up to this? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I'm trying to get together now. I'm trying to see what led up to it. It was something about a White girl. Bettie Barret Quinn: He walked across the yard, through the yard? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, I think he walked through the yard or something. Bettie Barret Quinn: Your mother said he actually, he walked through the yard. He went down road, but she stated that he came across the yard. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And, in fact, he was in the field working. And they went to the field where he was working, got him, took him to the woods, and lynched him. Bettie Barret Quinn: Something [indistinct 00:16:11]? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Say what? Bettie Barret Quinn: [indistinct 00:16:14]. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: What was his name? Hersey Copeland Quinn: The person who was lynched, his name was O'Neill Quinn. Paul Ortiz: And this happened during the 1920s? Hersey Copeland Quinn: It had to be the twenties, yeah. Yes. Paul Ortiz: When the family would talk about this terrible event, what would they say? Was there anger, grief? Hersey Copeland Quinn: That was the grief. Paul Ortiz: Did they talk about the event itself? Did they talk about the injustice of it? Hersey Copeland Quinn: They talked about the event and the injustice of it. Really, they didn't talk about it much. And I guess the reason they didn't because it was so tragic and grieving to them. Bettie Barret Quinn: His father was minister. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. His father was minister. Paul Ortiz: I guess, what was your reaction as a child to this event? I mean, once you heard about it through your family? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, when it happened, I was real small. I guess I must have been maybe six or seven years old. And 'course I didn't— Well, I didn't like it. And 'course at that time I felt there was nothing I could do about it. Paul Ortiz: How did it make you feel and, I guess, your family feel towards White people? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, it made them— They were bitter toward White people. And I think that's one reason my family had a tendency to try to keep us shielded from White people. Bettie Barret Quinn: Somebody calling about Parker Avenue house. They'll call back in 30 minutes. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Okay. Bettie Barret Quinn: It's Clayton's daughter. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Okay. Paul Ortiz: Oh, Mrs. Quinn. Can I ask you some questions? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. Paul Ortiz: Okay. Maybe if you could scoot a little closer because the mic is— Bettie Barret Quinn: Now, I was not reared in Alabama. I was reared in North Carolina. Paul Ortiz: —Oh, that's fine. That's great. Anywhere in the South. Okay. Paul Ortiz: So Mrs. Quinn, can you tell me about when you were born and about the area that you grew up in? Bettie Barret Quinn: I was born in Pitt County, Farmville, North Carolina. Paul Ortiz: And what occupation were your parents? Bettie Barret Quinn: They were farmers. Paul Ortiz: And what kind of farming did your family do? Bettie Barret Quinn: The main crop was tobacco. Paul Ortiz: Uh-huh. Bettie Barret Quinn: Small amount of cotton. Paul Ortiz: Did they rent the land? Own it? Bettie Barret Quinn: They rent it. Paul Ortiz: Rent it. And how old were you when you first began working the field? Or did you work in the field? Bettie Barret Quinn: I worked a small amount because I had polio at a early age and I did not go to work in the field. I stayed at the house preparing meals for the hired hands. Paul Ortiz: So your parents employed people helping to harvest? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. Paul Ortiz: Do you remember about how many people they would employ? Bettie Barret Quinn: The days that they were hiring to gather their tobacco, it would be about anywhere from six to ten that they would hire. Paul Ortiz: Did you go to school in Pitt County? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. At that time, I think they called it primary through high school. I graduated high school. Paul Ortiz: And what kind of school was this? Was it a public school? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes, a public school. Paul Ortiz: And how many months out of the year would you go? Bettie Barret Quinn: Eight months to nine months. Paul Ortiz: And was this the same amount of time that other children in the county would go? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. Yes. We did not miss any days going to school. What happened there in the school area, they would start taking in classes when we were working in the farm. Classes will start around 7:30 in the morning and get out at 12:30-1. We'd get back home time enough to assist. Paul Ortiz: Oh, I see. Paul Ortiz: And what was school life like for you? Bettie Barret Quinn: It was nice. I enjoyed school. Because not— As my husband stated, we had to, the parents purchased the bus that I rode to school on and it was a regular school bus. And when I got in junior high and high school, I was the first one to board the bus and the last one to get off, because I would have pick up first and ride the whole route and then the last one to get off. Paul Ortiz: Wow. Paul Ortiz: But the Black parents in the community— Bettie Barret Quinn: Purchased. Paul Ortiz: —got together and pooled their money and purchased the bus. Bettie Barret Quinn: That's probably for you. Telephone. Hersey Copeland Quinn: I got this. Hang on. Bettie Barret Quinn: Take it off. Paul Ortiz: When you were telling me about your schooling, do you remember the names of your schools in Pitt County? Bettie Barret Quinn: Oh, I went to public school of Farmville and High School. When I said public, I mean I'm the under grade. The junior high. Paul Ortiz: I see. Paul Ortiz: Were there any teachers that stood out that you really enjoyed? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. One, Mrs. Jordan and the high school principal's sons. And in the grade school, we had one principal that rode the bus in the community. Samuel House. Paul Ortiz: And do you remember segregation affecting your life as a child and your family's life in Pitt County? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. As my husband stated, there was in the stores area and all. 'Cause now, in some areas, they did not allow, did not want the Blacks to come in. But we had friends who you could not tell but difference in the race and family members. They could go in and get what we wanted. Paul Ortiz: So they would pass, basically? Bettie Barret Quinn: Mm-hmm. Yes. Bettie Barret Quinn: But I guess as my husband stated, it was two of us. Our parents more or less kept us sheild away from these areas too. But right in the community that we grew up in, there were Whites living there. Bettie Barret Quinn: But they made no difference because we played together, we would go to the movie together and all. But I guess this is because the parents did not believe in segregation as some of the rest. Paul Ortiz: Who was responsible for discipline in your family? Bettie Barret Quinn: My parents and grandparents. Paul Ortiz: Did your grandparents live with you? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. My foster— Should I say foster grandparents? Paul Ortiz: Uh-huh. Hersey Copeland Quinn: My father was the main disciplinarian in my family. Yeah. Paul Ortiz: Mine too. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: Mrs. Quinn, do you have a memory of your grandparents? Did they— Do you remember what kind of people they were? Would they tell you stories about their upbringing? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. My foster grandparents— My daddy was an adopted child. That's why I said foster grandparents. They will talk about their bringing up. My foster granddaddy was one of a family that owned their own land and I used to hear him discuss that. Bettie Barret Quinn: And my foster grandmother, she was an only child and I used to hear her talk about her parents. Paul Ortiz: Would they talking about experiences with discrimination that they faced or that they had to deal with? Bettie Barret Quinn: They would casually mention it, but not too much. I suppose what discrimination they had did not bother them that much to do a lot of talking about it. Paul Ortiz: Mr. Quinn, did you know your grandparents? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. I knew my grandparents on my father's side, but I never knew my grandparents on my mother's side. My grandparents on my mother's side died. Well, my grandfather died before I was born and my grandmother on my mother's side died when I was an infant. I guess I must have been— Or was I born then? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah, I must have been maybe about a year old or something like that. And now, 'course I remember the grandparents on my father's side quite well. My grandfather was— Well, he was sort of tall and I remember had white hair, but he was a farmer too. And he accumulated, well, a pretty good size portion of land in Lowndes County, about 500 acres. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And I don't remember anything about his actual farm and crops he raised and so forth because we had moved away. And when I was growing up, they were still in Lowndes County and 'course we were here in Macon County. And we would go there occasionally, maybe once a year, and maybe spend all day Sunday and come back. And then next year we would go back. Bettie Barret Quinn: [indistinct 00:32:00] had called homecoming for you all? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well? Bettie Barret Quinn: I mean at the church. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Usually when we go down to visit my grandparents, there was something at their home church and 'course we would have a chance to meet a lot of the relatives. Paul Ortiz: And this would happen once a month? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, once a year. Once a year. Paul Ortiz: Once a year. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: Was that a reunion? Hersey Copeland Quinn: It wasn't called a reunion. It was an annual affair they would have at the church. And 'course all the people in the area would go to this affair. And they gave us a chance to, and gave all the people a chance, to at least meet the people at least once a year that they otherwise wouldn't have seen. Paul Ortiz: So it was kind of a social event? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, it was they would have church. It was church. And I guess it was maybe a combination, right? Yeah, because they would serve a meal after church. Paul Ortiz: What role did the church play in each of your communities? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, the church played an important role in my community. I guess I should say just about everything was centered around the church and school. We always went to church on Sunday. And spend most of the day at church on Sunday. Hersey Copeland Quinn: We'd go to Sunday school in the morning and 'course church would end sometime maybe around two or three o'clock in the afternoon. Bettie Barret Quinn: Y'all waited that late to start church, huh? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I said would end about that time. Bettie Barret Quinn: Oh, I thought you said— Paul Ortiz: And was that role similar, Mrs. Quinn? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. We would get up, go to church on Sunday— Go for Sunday school, church service at 11. And then at three o'clock if we did not stay at our church, we would visit another church. And then at five o'clock we can go back for BTU, evening service. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, and maybe I should say this, too. We didn't have church every Sunday at my church. It was maybe every other Sunday, first and third or second and fourth Sunday. I think we had, at my church, we had on first and Thursday Sunday. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And 'course on fifth Sundays, there was nothing at our church. Most of the churches in that area didn't have anything on fifth Sundays unless it was a special event. They had service either on second and fourth or first and third Sundays. Paul Ortiz: So what would you do when your church didn't have a service? Hersey Copeland Quinn: We would go to other— Visit other churches. Paul Ortiz: And now, which denominations or which denomination did you grow up as? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Methodist. Paul Ortiz: And you, Mrs. Quinn? Bettie Barret Quinn: Free Will Baptist. Paul Ortiz: Free Will Baptist. Bettie Barret Quinn: You find that in North Carolina mostly. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Now at that time, my denomination was African Methodist. African Methodist Episcopal Church. Now I belong to United Methodist Church. Paul Ortiz: And AME was started by Richard Allen, right? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Right. Right. That's right. Right. Who's your denomination? Paul Ortiz: My denomination? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: I grew up— I was baptized Catholic, then we switched to Baptist. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh. Paul Ortiz: And Duke, of course, is Methodist. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh. Paul Ortiz: So we had a little bit of— Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: Now, I'm United Methodist now, too. I've been in Methodist ever since I came to Alabama. Paul Ortiz: All right. Did you switch after you left home to United Methodist? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. Right. Paul Ortiz: Okay. Do you have a particular reason for doing that? Philosophical or—? Hersey Copeland Quinn: No. Well, I had a reason. I didn't switch immediately after I left the home. After I left home, I joined another African Methodist Episcopal church. But after staying there awhile, I got dissatisfied with some of the things that were going on at the church, so we moved our membership to a United Methodist church. Paul Ortiz: Were some of those things, were they particular tenants of the church or practices? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Well, I guess we could say— Bettie Barret Quinn: The pastor. We found out that he was homosexual and he was bothering with the teenage boys and we had teenage boys and we didn't want to be involved in it. Hersey Copeland Quinn: —and we couldn't get rid of the pastor, so we just left the church. Yeah. And joined another church. Paul Ortiz: Now, Mrs. Quinn, you said that you really enjoyed school, that you had— There were some very good teachers at your school. Were all the teachers at your school Black? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. Paul Ortiz: Would they come— Do you remember, would they come from North Carolina? Bettie Barret Quinn: They were from different states. Paul Ortiz: Different states. Bettie Barret Quinn: I can remember one teacher was from West Virginia. Paul Ortiz: Did your parents instill in you a value for education? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. Paul Ortiz: Do you know if they had the opportunity to go to school themselves? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. Paul Ortiz: Do you know basically what level? Bettie Barret Quinn: My mother attended a boarding school because they did not have public schools in the area at that time. And my mother came from Edgecombe High, North Carolina. Paul Ortiz: And she went to a boarding high school? Bettie Barret Quinn: Yes. She attended boarding school in Enfield, North Carolina. You know where that is? Paul Ortiz: Yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: That's near Richmond, Virginia. Paul Ortiz: Did she go to Brick school? Oh, okay. I've been there. Bettie Barret Quinn: That's exactly where she attended. Paul Ortiz: Okay. Is she a member of the alumni organization there? Bettie Barret Quinn: My mother? Paul Ortiz: Her, yeah. Was she? Bettie Barret Quinn: I'm not sure. That's where she attended school. Paul Ortiz: We worked with them last summer. Bettie Barret Quinn: Oh, you did? Paul Ortiz: Yeah, we did interviews in that area. Bettie Barret Quinn: Yeah. You were right out of Richmond. What? Not too far out of Richmond. 301. Paul Ortiz: Now I suppose we should move up to young adulthood, say perhaps your late high school years. Starting with you, Mr. Quinn, did you have an idea of a career of a field that you might be interested in during those? Hersey Copeland Quinn: I really didn't have much— Well, I didn't hardly know what I wanted to do. Let me go back and sort of tell you about what happened. After I finished— Well, I told you about, we were living at Shorter, Alabama. Now the school there— Bettie Barret Quinn: He talking about high school. After finishing high school, that's what he want. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, after I finished high school. I thought he wanted know about high school, too. Paul Ortiz: Sure. That would be— Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, okay. After I finished— Well, the school in Shorter didn't go any higher than the seventh grade. So after seventh grade, we couldn't go to the White schools. We couldn't go to the White high schools. So my father— So we had to come school here at Tuskegee. So my oldest brother was old enough to drive then. So my father let us drive the car here to school. So I came here to school in the seventh or eighth grade. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And 'course after finishing— No, I went to two years high school here. And I really enjoyed my schooling here because it was somewhat different from what I had had been accustomed to and the elementary schools I had gone to in Shorter. Hersey Copeland Quinn: At the high school here, it was what I considered a real good high school. We had trades. We went to our academic subjects a half day and the other half day we went to a trade, trace school and studied a trade. Hersey Copeland Quinn: The second semester, all students who went to school, who took the academic subjects in the morning, were switched to the afternoon for the second semester. And 'course, that's the way we taught high school. Hersey Copeland Quinn: I didn't know what I wanted do. My father wanted me to study agriculture, but growing up the farm, I didn't want no more part. I didn't want anymore farm life. Paul Ortiz: Uh-huh. Hersey Copeland Quinn: So I studied a machine shop practice. And 'course when the students finished high school here, they also had a trade. I didn't finish high school here. I went two years here. And 'course, I had other sisters and brothers coming along and my father thought it was too expensive to keep us in school here. Hersey Copeland Quinn: By the way, we had to pay for it, too. Didn't have any public, any free free public schools. Paul Ortiz: Talking about Tuskegee High School? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes. Paul Ortiz: Oh, okay. And you had to pay for that. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yeah. Bettie Barret Quinn: But the high school was on the campus. Hersey Copeland Quinn: Yes, on campus. On the university. So after two years, my father sent me to another school that was less expensive. It was over in Montgomery County and not far from where we were living. And we didn't have as far to drive, so it was less car expense for us to go there. So that's where I finished high school. Paul Ortiz: Is there a difference in quality between these high schools? Hersey Copeland Quinn: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Quite a difference. This was a much better high school than the school I went to there. Paul Ortiz: And Tuskegee was better. Hersey Copeland Quinn: It was much better. Yeah. Paul Ortiz: What do you think accounted for that difference? Was it the curriculum? The teachers? Hersey Copeland Quinn: It was the curriculum and the teachers. The teachers here seemed to been better teachers than the teachers at school there. Because the two years I went to high school there, I really didn't accomplish much academically because a lot of things that they were teaching there, I had— Well, I had already been taught on my here. Hersey Copeland Quinn: And 'course when I graduated down there, I graduated valedictorian of my class. And that was probably the reason for it, because—